Did Princess Diana think that her in-laws and their friends and staff were sometimes looking at her critically?
:o :no: :( :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2:
Yes, I would say that was obvious, especially as the marriage to Charles neared its end. Positions became hardened on both sides as the years went on and this led to great difficulties. I think Diana would have said that she received negativity and little help from Royal insiders or her husband's relatives during her marriage. A bit unfair perhaps, but that's how she felt.
And I have read that offices between Charles, his siblings and other royals were not conducive to cooperation with each other anyway, even before Diana had arrived on the scene, with jealousies between the various royals about good publicity being showered on one and not others, and them all looking at each other's PR image like hawks, as adults.
Plus, friends of Charles's like Nicholas Soames coming out and casting aspersions on Diana's mental health, was neither friendly nor helpful. Soames was not a psychiatrist anyway.
Double post auto-merged: September 06, 2019, 01:32:06 AM
* A courtier in the 1980s and 1990s working in BP described a place where family members communicated by notes delivered by footmen, where meetings between royals were arranged by the same means, jealousy was rife, and 'they all watched each other like hawks'. Younger members like Andrew would go through the Queen's PS if he wished to see his mother during the day in the 1970s. Family friendly? Not very, and not an atmosphere in which someone like Diana, used to a much more informal world, would thrive.
Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 07, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?
To her face you mean? No, I don't think so. The Queen is known to 'ostrich' and retreat from conflict of any time. At the beginning she was delighted that Charles was marrying such a prize. However, on the honeymoon at Balmoral I think she found out that she hadnt realised how complex Diana was and was perplexed and puzzled by her.
Later on she became terribly worried about the state of the marriage (not that she did anything about it like telling Charles to stop seeing Mrs PB and try to put his union with Diana on a closer footing) and I'm sure the Queen had discussions with Philip and possibly Margaret. As the marriage progressed towards its end I think she became irritated with Diana and possibly thought she was beyond any help and guidance. At the same time she appeared to be puzzled that Diana didn't want to spend Xmas with the Windsors after the divorce. Somewhat obtuse if you ask me!
However, as she has never spoken about those times and never will, and Diana never reported any ticking off I think we can say that there weren't any. However, silent disapproval is IMO just as bad. And certainly her view of Diana hardened after the Morton book and veered around to Charles after Panrama and during the divorce negotiations.
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 07, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?
Certainly
Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?
LF, at what stage of the marriage to Charles? You surely know, as its been discussed often enough on this forum, that after the Morton Book and Panorama that the RF slowly but surely closed ranks against Diana. Philip, like the Queen, expressed his delight at the engagement of Charles and Diana. Then came puzzlement at Diana's unhappiness at Balmoral during the honeymoon and some episodes such as when Philip apparently ticked her off for debuting a new hairstyle at a State Opening of Parliament.
I don't think either the Queen or Philip were particularly pleased by Diana's huge popularity which not only dwarfed Charles's but threatened the Queen's too, at least as far as the media was concerned, though I don't think they directly criticised Diana for the phenomenon. They, particularly Philip, did attempt to act as marriage counsellors in the last year or two of Charles and Diana's marriage and we know Philip wrote letters of advice to her in which he did criticise aspects of her behaviour. However he also famously told her 'I don't know how anyone could prefer Camilla to you', referring to her beauty.
So Philip was critical, very critical at times of his daughter in law and told her so, but he did try to help her too.
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 08, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?
Yes
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 06, 2019, 12:42:52 AM
Did Princess Diana think that her in-laws and their friends and staff were sometimes looking at her critically?
:o :no: :( :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2:
I think so. I think that to some, having a mistress was quite ordinary, and perhaps, why all the fuss?
Double post auto-merged: September 08, 2019, 08:39:56 PM
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 08, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?
I think he disagreed with her on some things, and she with him most likely. However, him writing to her that he could not imagine PC choosing C over her kind of shows that he held her in esteem. IMO.
Quote from: Curryong on September 07, 2019, 01:14:21 AM
To her face you mean? No, I don't think so. The Queen is known to 'ostrich' and retreat from conflict of any time. At the beginning she was delighted that Charles was marrying such a prize. However, on the honeymoon at Balmoral I think she found out that she hadnt realised how complex Diana was and was perplexed and puzzled by her.
Later on she became terribly worried about the state of the marriage (not that she did anything about it like telling Charles to stop seeing Mrs PB and try to put his union with Diana on a closer footing) and I'm sure the Queen had discussions with Philip and possibly Margaret. As the marriage progressed towards its end I think she became irritated with Diana and possibly thought she was beyond any help and guidance. At the same time she appeared to be puzzled that Diana didn't want to spend Xmas with the Windsors after the divorce. Somewhat obtuse if you ask me!
However, as she has never spoken about those times and never will, and Diana never reported any ticking off I think we can say that there weren't any. However, silent disapproval is IMO just as bad. And certainly her view of Diana hardened after the Morton book and veered around to Charles after Panrama and during the divorce negotiations.
At the time of the Morton book, it was not known for sure if Diana cooperated. After she died, MOrton confirmed it. And certainly Margaret and the QUeen knew about Camilla the Whole Time. Margaret was quoted as saying that she hoped Camilla would let Charles go. I found it heartless that Diana was not warned ahead of time about the Real Status of Mrs Parker Bowles. SHe could have backed out then.
THe QUeen knew about Camilla in 1979-80 and that Charles renewed his physical relationship with Camilla. Charles took Camilla as his "escort" to ZImbabwe in 1980 which caused comment and embarrassment among the courtiers. Yet the Queen did nothing. ANd she also was warned about the relationship by a courtier.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 08, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
I think so. I think that to some, having a mistress was quite ordinary, and perhaps, why all the fuss?
Double post auto-merged: September 08, 2019, 08:39:56 PM
I think he disagreed with her on some things, and she with him most likely. However, him writing to her that he could not imagine PC choosing C over her kind of shows that he held her in esteem. IMO.
Not really. I think it was just the normal reaction that Diana was a beauty and Camilla was not. he also stated to Diana that perhaps she should consider that her own behaviour had been what cuased Charles to leave her for Camilla
When did Charles "leave" Camilla? He was talking to her over the phone on his honeymoon with Diana and they met on the hunts. Charles even admitted to DImbleby that he preferred Camilla when he married DIana. And who was to blame for Charles getting involved with APB's wife before Diana came on the scene. It was Charles' behavior that was the problem IMO. He was continuing to see and contact Camilla. I think it shows Charles mindset if he has his friends blame DIana for his involvement with Camilla happened before he courted DIana.
Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
Not really. I think it was just the normal reaction that Diana was a beauty and Camilla was not. he also stated to Diana that perhaps she should consider that her own behaviour had been what cuased Charles to leave her for Camilla
I personally don't think so. I think both PP and HM valued Diana and appreciated her as a future Queen consort material. They would never have approved of a marriage if they thought otherwise. This is why him and HM made an effort to try to speak to both her and PC during the breakdown of the marriage. So I think that he appreciated Diana, and they do have some similarities, her and Philip. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
I personally don't think so. I think both PP and HM valued Diana and appreciated her as a future Queen consort material. They would never have approved of a marriage if they thought otherwise. This is why him and HM made an effort to try to speak to both her and PC during the breakdown of the marriage. So I think that he appreciated Diana, and they do have some similarities, her and Philip. IMO.
Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.
Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.
I think that she was always considered suitable consort material. She was put in a difficult situation and tried to find her way out so to speak. I don't think that she recieved alot of help though.
I think that both PP and HM understood the predicament that she was in and tried in someways to alleviate it. But when your husband refuses to let go of a mistress, and the mistress refuses to let go of him. Well there's only so much that can be done. Diana stood up for herself and defended herself. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 02:46:44 PM
I think that she was always considered suitable consort material. She was put in a difficult situation and tried to find her way out so to speak. I don't think that she recieved alot of help though.
I think that both PP and HM understood the predicament that she was in and tried in someways to alleviate it. But when your husband refuses to let go of a mistress, and the mistress refuses to let go of him. Well there's only so much that can be done. Diana stood up for herself and defended herself. IMO.
yes of course she was considered sutitable When they married.. otherwise the Queen would not have OK'ed the marriage. Fairly soon after the marriage however I think they were uneasy.. when Diana became bulimic and did not seem to fit in or enjoy Royal private life...
And when they realised she was leaking stories to the press and had authorised the Morton book, they were not on her side at all any more..
The marriage ended in divorce because the queen realised that she could not ensure that Diana did not leak stories, or do things like the Panorama Interview and the only solution was to order her to end the marriage legally and there was probably a gagging order In the divorce settlement...
Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.
They must have been very oblivious then. THe Queen knew about Charles and his association with Camilla and if they "changed their opinions" it was that DIana did not turn a blind eye to Camilla and who can blame her.
Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:52:08 PM
yes of course she was considered sutitable When they married.. otherwise the Queen would not have OK'ed the marriage. Fairly soon after the marriage however I think they were uneasy.. when Diana became bulimic and did not seem to fit in or enjoy Royal private life...
And when they realised she was leaking stories to the press and had authorised the Morton book, they were not on her side at all any more..
The marriage ended in divorce because the queen realised that she could not ensure that Diana did not leak stories, or do things like the Panorama Interview and the only solution was to order her to end the marriage legally and there was probably a gagging order In the divorce settlement...
We don't know that she didn't fit or enjoy family life. She should've gotten help for her bulimia. Instead it was her friend who made her get the help. Baffling.
I think HM ordered the divorce because she became wary and nervous about the back and forth. Diana's actions did not exist in a vacuum. She spoke out in order to defend herself. Considering there's still to this day a vested interest in portraying her in a certain light she did good in speaking out, IMO. Now her side will always be there for people who want to know.
She was given the wrong help when she was pregnant with William. Charles had doctors that just fed her valium And then she could not take the pills because of her pregnancy. It was baffling that her sister Sarah did not refer DIana to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 07:32:45 PM
We don't know that she didn't fit or enjoy family life. She should've gotten help for her bulimia. Instead it was her friend who made her get the help. Baffling.
we do know. She wasn't happy at Balmoral.. she told Morton she didn't feel comfortable there. the queen was irked that she seemed gloomy and depressed and not willing to be soicalbe. As for her bulimia, she was takne to doctors, but she did not speak of her bulimia and so they couldn't treat it. It was not for some years that friends pressured her by threatening to go public on her illness and that finally pushed her into seekng therapy. You could hardly expect the RF to say "If you don't see a doctor and talk to him I'll go to the press"
Double post auto-merged: September 10, 2019, 06:56:36 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 09, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
They must have been very oblivious then. THe Queen knew about Charles and his association with Camilla and if they "changed their opinions" it was that DIana did not turn a blind eye to Camilla and who can blame her.
As you know they "changed their opinions" in the early days when they saw that Diana was a lot different after her marriage to what she had been like before. She now seemed to dislike much of the rural life and socialising that she had seemed to enjoy while dating Charles... As time progressed they became increasingly uneasy with Diana because they suspected her of leaking stories to the press and of doing te Morton book...So by the later years of the marriage while the queen had still hoped to keep the 2 of htem in some form of marital relationship, she realised finally that she could not do so and that She could not trust Diana not to speak to the press or journalists..and so she finally ordered a divorce...
Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.
Charles people leaked stories to the press and Diana wanted her side out there. There were stories from people like Nicholas Soames, Charles good friends.
The Queen would have been well advised not to trust her son who skewered her as a bad parent via Dimbleby book.
Charles sent doctors with the wrong sort of treatment for Diana, Diana may have been uncomfortable being fed large quantities of valium.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.
Charles people leaked stories to the press and Diana wanted her side out there. There were stories from people like Nicholas Soames, Charles good friends.
The Queen would have been well advised not to trust her son who skewered her as a bad parent via Dimbleby book.
Charles sent doctors with the wrong sort of treatment for Diana, Diana may have been uncomfortable being fed large quantities of valium.
She wasn't "fed large quantities of Valium". She was prescribed Valium for anxiety.. which was standard treatment. Charles does not approve of taking a lot of drugs, so it was harldy his decision.. it was that of the doctor to suggest taking it. And Diana idd not talk to the Doctors about her bulimia so they could not treat it..and in any case she did not take the Valium for long because she was pregnant.
Besides how would valium make her "uncomfortable"? It is a tranquillisers
This is in her biographies, she was given quantities of valium. Valium is not effective and the doctor did not get to the root of the issue like Dr. Lipsedge did later on. Why Lipsedge was not sent to her then is a mystery.
Charles went along with the valium and he could have tried to find another doctor. He even sent Van Der Post who proved ineffectual.
Diana went off the valium when she found out she was pregnant.
Valium makes people tired and can be addictive.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
This is in her biographies, she was given quantities of valium. Valium is not effective and the doctor did not get to the root of the issue like Dr. Lipsedge did later on. Why Lipsedge was not sent to her then is a mystery.
Charles went along with the valium and he could have tried to find another doctor. He even sent Van Der Post who proved ineffectual.
Diana went off the valium when she found out she was pregnant.
Valium makes people tired and can be addictive.
Since Diana didn't take it for long..and would not have been kept on it for long without reviewing how it was working for her, I don't really think she was in danger of becoming addicted.
And Valium IS helpful to many people.. If Diana had spoken to her doctor about her illness, she could have been referred to an eating specialist. She didn't..and so it was some years before she found a doctor who could treat her..
Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.
How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?
Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:59:47 PM
Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.
How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?
Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.
How could she be dependent on them...when she did not take them for long? She would have had her treatment reviewed on a regular basis anyway and would not have been allowed to become dependent on them. As for her sister, well I can only suggest you ask the sister?
Charles brought in doctors as Diana was clearly not in a good mental state.. They treated her anxiety. if she did not talk to them about her bulimia, they could not treat it...
Valium can be addictive. Fact.
Starting them can lead to addiction.
Why would I ask the sister? And this was all the way back in 1981-82.
Bullimia symptoms can be observed. And eating disorders apparently ran in her family.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.
she had only 2 kids not 10. during the 10 years she had go to balmoral (as well as sandringham) she loathed it in her own words
it was commented in press in mid/late 1980s and even more during the war of waleses, that diana going to polo matches after harry was born was all pressure of courtiers (ideas) to counter gossip surrounding their bad marriage
Yes but dianab she did go and every year until the separation. She saw the boys enjoyed it. With her sons with her I doubt she really "loathed" it. Diana still went to those polo matches dianab. She was also seen there with her sons.
Quote from: sandy on September 09, 2019, 10:05:19 PM
She was given the wrong help when she was pregnant with William. Charles had doctors that just fed her valium And then she could not take the pills because of her pregnancy. It was baffling that her sister Sarah did not refer DIana to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place.
Valium was certainly not the solution.
It is certainly very strange why they did not recommend her to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place. I don't think that Diana hid her illness to such an extent that her family didn't notice. After all, they had experience of it because of Sara. And if even her friends noticed, surely her family must've too.
It's baffling to say the least.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 06:42:53 PM
Yes but dianab she did go and every year until the separation. She saw the boys enjoyed it. With her sons with her I doubt she really "loathed" it. Diana still went to those polo matches dianab. She was also seen there with her sons.
from all the accounts i read, in sandringham and balmoral the adults spent most of time away from the kids... you should to read gilbey phonecall and morton tapes transcripts, she loathed her time there, the in-laws, 'the atmosphere' etc. i've always understood back then it was sort of a rule go to sandringham and balmoral and not something that was a choice (at least from diana point of view)... she described that as 'the most stressful time of year' when she was supposed to be relaxing on holidays
she still went to Balmoral until the separation.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:59:47 PM
Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.
How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?
Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.
Was her sister Lady Sarah or Lady Jane?
Lady Sarah Spencer had an eating disorder. Lady Jane did not.
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
she still went to Balmoral until the separation.
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 05:32:16 AM
Quote from: dianab on September 10, 2019, 07:59:43 PM
from all the accounts i read, in sandringham and balmoral the adults spent most of time away from the kids... you should to read gilbey phonecall and morton tapes transcripts, she loathed her time there, the in-laws, 'the atmosphere' etc. i've always understood back then it was sort of a rule go to sandringham and balmoral and not something that was a choice (at least from diana point of view)... she described that as 'the most stressful time of year' when she was supposed to be relaxing on holidays
This is a article with pictures of a shoot she went to
Princess Diana is seen on a shoot in candid photos | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4610256/Princess-Diana-seen-shoot-candid-photos.html)
I don't think she hated country life. She grew up in Norfolk, if i'm not mistaken? And then there are even pictures of her riding, on her fathers estate. I think it's possible to love city life and enjoy the country now and then.
I think the reason she felt bad sometimes was because of the situation in her marriage. She was perhaps the only one wanting to tackle the problem head on. IMO.
Diana did love Norfolk when she was at Wood Farm on the Sandringham estate as a child. (Btw she fell of a horse there and broke her leg. It gave her a fear of horses and she hardly ever rode again.)
There's a bit of a difference with messing around on your father's country estate with your family around you and with your father hosting the occasional shoot with friends, to being penned in with people with whom you're not particularly congenial, where formality rules inside the home. It's a question of degree. The very walls at Balmoral are decorated with many deer antlers.
At Balmoral and at Sandringham in those days there were several changes of clothes undertaken every day, dinner was a formal occasion, and the talk over the table was almost always of game birds shot, deer stalked, fish caught etc.
Diana was a country girl and was quite used to shoots. However I don't know that she was ever obsessed with salmon fishing, for instance, as her husband was, or liked crawling on her belly after deer as others in the RF did. And when it rained as it often does in Scotland walks in heather under a grey sky aren't very pleasurable either.
If she had enjoyed riding ponies or horses that would have been some compensation, but even after she got on a horse again after her marriage it was a rare occurrence.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 10, 2019, 07:51:23 PM
Valium was certainly not the solution.
It is certainly very strange why they did not recommend her to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place. I don't think that Diana hid her illness to such an extent that her family didn't notice. After all, they had experience of it because of Sara. And if even her friends noticed, surely her family must've too.
It's baffling to say the least.
No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 06:58:49 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
she still went to Balmoral until the separation.
she didn't have any choice. Charles went and she was expected to go as well..
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:01:55 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 04:24:41 PM
Valium can be addictive. Fact.
Starting them can lead to addiction.
Why would I ask the sister? And this was all the way back in 1981-82.
Bullimia symptoms can be observed. And eating disorders apparently ran in her family.
No, it can't. If you take them for a time, there is a possibliyt of becoming addicted, which is why doctors will monitor taking them.. and not precribe them for long periods. Diana didn't take them for long because she got pregnant. if she hadn't, the doctors would have checked her out after a short pierod of time and seen if they were doing her any good..and might change her to other tablets. They could not "cure" her or send her to a psychotherapist unless she was willing to cooperate with the doctor and talk abuot her probems.
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:49:05 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 11, 2019, 05:32:03 AM
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 05:32:16 AM
This is a article with pictures of a shoot she went to
Princess Diana is seen on a shoot in candid photos | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4610256/Princess-Diana-seen-shoot-candid-photos.html)
I don't think she hated country life. She grew up in Norfolk, if i'm not mistaken? And then there are even pictures of her riding, on her fathers estate. I think it's possible to love city life and enjoy the country now and then.
I think the reason she felt bad sometimes was because of the situation in her marriage. She was perhaps the only one wanting to tackle the problem head on. IMO.
N
Quote from: Curryong on September 11, 2019, 06:29:02 AM
Diana did love Norfolk when she was at Wood Farm on the Sandringham estate as a child. (Btw she fell of a horse there and broke her leg. It gave her a fear of horses and she hardly ever rode again.)
There's a bit of a difference with messing around on your father's country estate with your family around you and with your father hosting the occasional shoot with friends, to being penned in with people with whom you're not particularly congenial, where formality rules inside the home. It's a question of degree. The very walls at Balmoral are decorated with many deer antlers.
At Balmoral and at Sandringham in those days there were several changes of clothes undertaken every day, dinner was a formal occasion, and the talk over the table was almost always of game birds shot, deer stalked, fish caught etc.
Diana was a country girl and was quite used to shoots. However I don't know that she was ever obsessed with salmon fishing, for instance, as her husband was, or liked crawling on her belly after deer as others in the RF did. And when it rained as it often d
I think she liked it as a girl because it was her familiar home and she was used to it. But as she grew up, she longed for more citified diversions, like shops and movies. I think she began to find the rainy climate in Scotland particularly off putting and to feel that there was nothing to do in the country (whether at Highgrove or Balmoral) but go for wlaks in the rain. In London, she had friens nearby - she coudl meet them easily and go out to restuarants and parties.. For exercises there were gyms, swimming pools, and tennis.. stuff that mostly didn't involve outdoor chilly weather.
She did watch Charles shooting and fishing during her courtship but she went off it after her marriage.. so I can imagine the RF began to feel that she had been playng along during her courtship and was now revealing her real distaste for country life and blood sports.
And yes the extreme formality of life at Royal households esp Balmoral got to her. Changing clothes frequently... listening to them all banging on about the shooting and being bored stiff. And having to do everything formally when she had been used to a much simpler more informal way of life...
With the references to Dr Lipsedge and why Sarah didn't recommend him to her sister we seem again to be in unknown territory. Why didn't Sarah ask Disna to be her bridesmaid in May 1980? Diana's romance with Charles hadnt begun by then, so why not?
So many questions! Why didn't Frances, who had apparently been so eager to rush Sarah off to specialists not do the same for Diana? I'm sure she suspected something was wrong.
Why didn't Frances, who had been married unhappily at eighteen to a man twelve years older, not warn her daughter about some of the complications of having that sort of an age gap and about living the country lifestyle and pursuits it was known that Charles liked and Diana wasn't so keen on? I mean, Frances had felt buried in Norfolk.
And why didn't she try to help the Charles/Diana marriage when she saw her youngest daughter start to flounder, around the time of her second child being born?
Robert Fellowes was close to the RF as a senior courtier. Why didn't he and/or Jane warn Diana about Camilla and Charles still being in thrall to her before she considered marriage to the POW? There seem to be so many disconnects in the Spencer family, so many gaps in our knowledge. I wish someone would write a knowledgable book about Diana's relationship with her mother and siblings.
Sarah Spencer said that "we'd like to talk to Diana" about her weight loss.. to a journalist.. but its not clear if she ever did do so. James Colthurst who was a doctor said that he knew Di was bulimic when he renewed his friendship with her a few years into her marriage but he said something like "you coudlnt' say anything to her- she was so vulnerable". People with bulimia are good at keeping it a secret so that many of those close to them don't know what's going on unless they are experts..
Diana lost a lot of weight but she was eating normally even avidly at times.. so the odds re that people just thought "she is dieting too much".. that she was eating a lot at times and then starving herself..
As time progressed, I think people close to her began to get an idea that she was throwing up her meals.. but Diana probably gave off a vibe of "don't talk to me about it.." or shied away from them gently trying to probe her about it. If she wasn't ready to talk, there was nothing anyone, even a specialist could do...
Of course a specialist could do something. Suppose a person is in denial about having an illness and goes to the doctor. The doctor finds it and would treat the problem. Lipsedge was Sarah's doctor I still don't know why he was not referred to Diana by Sarah. Diana had great rapport with Lipsedge who deal with the issue and just did not send her to a pharmacist for valium .
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 01:41:53 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 11, 2019, 06:58:15 AM
No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 06:58:49 AM
she didn't have any choice. Charles went and she was expected to go as well..
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:01:55 AM
No, it can't. If you take them for a time, there is a possibliyt of becoming addicted, which is why doctors will monitor taking them.. and not precribe them for long periods. Diana didn't take them for long because she got pregnant. if she hadn't, the doctors would have checked her out after a short pierod of time and seen if they were doing her any good..and might change her to other tablets. They could not "cure" her or send her to a psychotherapist unless she was willing to cooperate with the doctor and talk abuot her probems.
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:49:05 AM
NI think she liked it as a girl because it was her familiar home and she was used to it. But as she grew up, she longed for more citified diversions, like shops and movies. I think she began to find the rainy climate in Scotland particularly off putting and to feel that there was nothing to do in the country (whether at Highgrove or Balmoral) but go for wlaks in the rain. In London, she had friens nearby - she coudl meet them easily and go out to restuarants and parties.. For exercises there were gyms, swimming pools, and tennis.. stuff that mostly didn't involve outdoor chilly weather.
She did watch Charles shooting and fishing during her courtship but she went off it after her marriage.. so I can imagine the RF began to feel that she had been playng along during her courtship and was now revealing her real distaste for country life and blood sports.
And yes the extreme formality of life at Royal households esp Balmoral got to her. Changing clothes frequently... listening to them all banging on about the shooting and being bored stiff. And having to do everything formally when she had been used to a much simpler more informal way of life...
Anorexia is an Eating Disorder like Bulimia. Lipsedge apparently could treat both anorexia and bulimia. Both also seem focused on body image where a woman feels she is "heavy" and "must lose weight" even though she's super t hin.
Diana liked the country and enjoyed walks at Balmoral, there are photos of her doing so. The one who was "faking it" to me was Prince Charles who later confessed he preferred Camilla when he married Diana.
Plus as I have said, Diana was quite ill the first year and had morning sickness. It was the royals problem if they did not "understand" this.
ALl Diana had to do was to tell her doctor that she wanted to see Lipsedge and I doubt if he would have refused to refer her for treatment or that Lipsedge would have refused to treat her.
But he could not treat her without her being willing to talk about the illness and admit there was a problem. According to Colthursts who is a doctor.. it wasn't easy to get Diana to admit she had a problem and be willing to talk about it. I don't know how you think a therapist can treat someone who is refusing to speak about her problems.
Diana may not have been aware of Lipsedge. I don't know the state of communication between Sarah and Diana but isn't it the patient who already saw the doctor and liked him to recommend the doctor. Diana never met Lipsedge and Charles was dating Sarah during her anorexia issues and surely HE would have known about Lipsedge yet he sends Van Der Post.
Diana did get help amabel. And become healthy and led a healthy lifestyle I don't know why she's criticized this way. She also was under a great deal of stress for many reasons mostly the marital problems
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 02:31:35 PM
Diana may not have been aware of Lipsedge. I don't know the state of communication between Sarah and Diana but isn't it the patient who already saw the doctor and liked him to recommend the doctor. Diana never met Lipsedge and Charles was dating Sarah during her anorexia issues and surely HE would have known about Lipsedge yet he sends Van Der Post.
Diana did get help amabel. And become healthy and led a healthy lifestyle I don't know why she's criticized this way. She also was under a great deal of stress for many reasons mostly the marital problems
So if she wasn't aware of Lipsedge how come she ended up seeing him??
If she talked to the doctors she saw about her compulsions to vomit and to binge eat and half starve herself, they would have suggested a therapist who specialised in eating disorders. Then she would have seen someone who would have dicussed her issues with her.
Colthurst seems to have realised that she had bulimia but he was a doctor and he felt that it was dificiult to get her into treatment. ANd unless she was willing to go to a psychotherapist and speak about her illness, there was no chance of her recovering....
That detail was never revealed, amabel. maybe Sarah told her or maybe Diana's primary care doctor referred her. Diana mentioned she started seeing him.
Colthurst was also a friend of hers. Maybe she did not want to see a doctor who was also her friend.
This is water under the bridge anyway. Diana got the help she needed. Charles bungled it and for one reason or another had doctors that gave her pills. If he were so smart, how come he did not get the right treatments. She did see those doctors.
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:22:24 PM
That detail was never revealed, amabel. maybe Sarah told her or maybe Diana's primary care doctor referred her. Diana mentioned she started seeing him.
Colthurst was also a friend of hers. Maybe she did not want to see a doctor who was also her friend.
This is water under the bridge anyway. Diana got the help she needed. Charles bungled it and for one reason or another had doctors that gave her pills. If he were so smart, how come he did not get the right treatments. She did see those doctors.
Yes she saw the doctors.. and they prescribed Valium. Which was the standard drug for anxiety. It had nothing to do with Charles.
If she had told the doctors that she had compulisions to throw up her food, they would have referred her to a therapist who specialised in eating disorders. Then she would have been treated with probably a combination of drugs and psyhchotherapy.
Of course Colthurst was not going to treat her himself.. He was among the friends who persuaded her to seek treatment. But it clearly took time before her friends were albe to persuade her that she needed to see someone
Charles found the doctors. This is a well known fact. He had them come and make housecalls and he brought Diana to London.
He even brought Van Der Post.
Diana still got the treatment she needed.
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:30:03 PM
Charles found the doctors. This is a well known fact. He had them come and make housecalls and he brought Diana to London.
He even brought Van Der Post.
Diana still got the treatment she needed.
and Diana saw the doctors. She only had to speak to them about her illness and they would have known more about what the problems were.
She did speak to them in 1981-82 there was a diagnosis made where the doctors prescribed Valium Wrong treatment. And the doctors were remiss,
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:46:20 PM
She did speak to them in 1981-82 there was a diagnosis made where the doctors prescribed Valium Wrong treatment. And the doctors were remiss,
how were the doctors remiss? Diana did not talk about her bulimia. It is clear that for some time she continued to believe that she was concealing it from people, like most bulimics...and according to James Colthurst who was a friend and a doctor, it was impossisbe to talk to her about it...
Quote from: amabel on September 11, 2019, 06:58:15 AM
No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help
But anoxeria is an eating disorder too. People with anoxeria throw up too, and someone in her family must have recognized those symptoms at least.
And her losing alot of weight should also have been a reason for her family to take it seriously.
It took the efforts of friend, who had threatened to go the media, for Diana to do something. Just astonishing IMO.
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:27:41 PM
Quote from: Curryong on September 11, 2019, 11:08:42 AM
With the references to Dr Lipsedge and why Sarah didn't recommend him to her sister we seem again to be in unknown territory. Why didn't Sarah ask Disna to be her bridesmaid in May 1980? Diana's romance with Charles hadnt begun by then, so why not?
So many questions! Why didn't Frances, who had apparently been so eager to rush Sarah off to specialists not do the same for Diana? I'm sure she suspected something was wrong.
Why didn't Frances, who had been married unhappily at eighteen to a man twelve years older, not warn her daughter about some of the complications of having that sort of an age gap and about living the country lifestyle and pursuits it was known that Charles liked and Diana wasn't so keen on? I mean, Frances had felt buried in Norfolk.
And why didn't she try to help the Charles/Diana marriage when she saw her youngest daughter start to flounder, around the time of her second child being born?
Robert Fellowes was close to the RF as a senior courtier. Why didn't he and/or Jane warn Diana about Camilla and Charles still being in thrall to her before she considered marriage to the POW? There seem to be so many disconnects in the Spencer family, so many gaps in our knowledge. I wish someone would write a knowledgable book about Diana's relationship with her mother and siblings.
I do wonder sometimes if Diana wasn't bullied by her family, although i'm not sure if that's the right word. It's almost like they were dismissive or treated her as "less than".
In Frances defence, wasn't she happy when she got married? I thought that it was the pressure of having a son that contributed to the disintegration of the marriage.
I also read somewhere that she got along with PC, but also stood up for Diana when PC made a remark about PH saying he should be grateful for having a healthy child.
Maybe her sisters were more concerned about her royal status so to speak, and did not want to jeopardize it? IMO. Was there jealousy involved too even early on? Who knows.
I wonder what earl Spencer's role in all of this was? I personally don't buy that he was this easygoing, affable gent that was harmless. I think he could be difficult behind closed doors IMO.
her sister sarah said to iirc james whitaker in 1981 or 1982 they were afraid she was going through anorexia... but according to all sources frances and the sisters didnt want got involved with diana's issues. frances said to her biographer after diana married she didnt want get involved with her life and didnt think it was wrong she to be out of life of her newly married daughter...
frances marriage just broke down in 1986 or 1987 and according to ken warphe, druing this time she visited highgrove and got on with charles... it was carolyn bartholomew who pressured diana got help and james coulthurst helped too. the spencers werent around her during her bulimia years or depression post partum...
i think it very telling that when diana moved to clarence house after engaged she said to her flatmates she'll need them more than ever... when she had 2 sisters... particularly one married to a courtier... another very into horses and hunting, i've always read her sister sarah hang out in those charles' circles because that
in morton book there are some childhood friends whom said as diana idolized her sister sarah whom always treated her as 'a dog' - words of the friend, i think named lucinda... growing up she never had a fraternal relationship with her sisters... according to herself and people around the spencers
since 1978, johnnie spencer was in very bad healthy state
Anorexia does not usually involve throwing up.. that is bulimia. Sarah had anorexia, she dieted obsessively..Diana dieted and lost weight but she also binge ate and threw up, but she believed her weight loss wasn't showing. The 2 illnesses are boht food disorders but they are not the same.
Diana didn't develop the bulimia till after she got engaged and was part of the RF..but she was still apparently eating normally so her weight loss (to non experts) was a mystery. She was referred to a doctor by Charles and the RF..but she did not talk to him about her food compuslions. There is nothing strange about this.. Bulimics usually hide their illness and are secretive and don't admit to themselves that they have a problem
Anorexia and Bulimia are both eating disorders. Lipsedge treated both of them. Both can be life threatening if it becomes extreme.
Diana was skin and bones in Fall 1982. There are photos to show this. Then she went back to her regular weight.
Diana had to admit her symptoms to those doctors in 1981/1982 who gave her valium.
She didn't talk about her bulimia. She probably admitted that she was tense and anxious, and they put her on Valium as was standard practice. She didn't take it for long because she soon became pregnant.
Her friend who was a doctor, said that "you coudlnt' say anything to her because she was so vulnerable" so he had probably tried to gently hint towards the subject of her weight loss and her disappearing after meals but Diana was not able to admit initially that she had a problem. When she did admit it, She was able to start treatment and improved...
When a person goes to a doctor he asks about symptoms. ANd makes a diagnosis. Valium was merely a band aid and did not get to the root of the problem. Doctors are called on to help cures and get the best medication. Maybe valium was more "in vogue" then but I doubt the same treatment would be given today.
The doctor should have known it was an eating disorder.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 03:24:32 PM
When a person goes to a doctor he asks about symptoms. ANd makes a diagnosis. Valium was merely a band aid and did not get to the root of the problem. Doctors are called on to help cures and get the best medication. Maybe valium was more "in vogue" then but I doubt the same treatment would be given today.
The doctor should have known it was an eating disorder.
He probably did realise that she was either anorexic or bulimic.. but there were not many specialists in eating disorders at the time. And if Diana woudlnt' talk about the illness, he could not do anything. All he could do would be to prescribe something to help her anxiety
Karen Carpenter brought a lot of attention to eating disorders. It was known back then.
If that was all he could do he should have been dismissed on the spot.
Some patients are tight lipped about their illnesses with the doctor, some are too weak to talk, the doctors Diana saw sound incompetent to me.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 03:59:18 PM
Karen Carpenter brought a lot of attention to eating disorders. It was known back then.
If that was all he could do he should have been dismissed on the spot.
Some patients are tight lipped about their illnesses with the doctor, some are too weak to talk, the doctors Diana saw sound incompetent to me.
Karen Carpenter was American and even in the US I don't think there were that many experts on Eating disorders. I don't see how you can say that a doctor "shouidl be dismissed" for providing medication according to normal practices. As I've said, it is likely that Diana's doctor did guess that she was anorexic or bulimic (since she seemed to be eating normally at times)? but if Diana would not discuss her illness with him, he could not treat her. I hardly imagine she was "too weak to talk" because she had lost a bit of weight....
What exactly do you think a doctor could have done, if a patient refused to discuss the compulsions that were cuasing them to vomit?
Karen Carpenter was an internationally famous singer.Certainly the UK knew about her.
Doctors can be dismissed if they prove unsatisfactory. People have choices.
What if a patient is unconscious and does not talk? The doctor would have to diagnose and not wait for the patient to regain consciousness.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 04:06:26 PM
Karen Carpenter was an internationally famous singer.Certainly the UK knew about her.
Doctors can be dismissed if they prove unsatisfactory. People have choices.
What if a patient is unconscious and does not talk? The doctor would have to diagnose and not wait for the patient to regain consciousness.
If Diana found the doctor unsatisfactory she could have asked for another doctor. but if she wouldn't talk to him, she would be in the same boat as before.
We are not talking abuot physical illnesses. For Diana to get some control over her bulimia, she needed to see a psychotherapist and discuss the illness nad her problems. She would not admit she had a problem..so even if dozens of doctors told her that she had anorexia or bulimia, she wold not accept it and would have no chance of a cure. HOw do you think they could treat someone who refused to talk about an eating disorder? there is no "magic drug" to help someone with the compulsion to diet obsessively or throw up their food...
I am not sure how many doctors there were.
throwing up food is physical. It may require counseling but the physical aspects of it are very much in evidence.
Valium is not the answer.
What if the person is unconscious. What then? how can the person be "counseled.?"
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 04:25:49 PM
I am not sure how many doctors there were.
throwing up food is physical. It may require counseling but the physical aspects of it are very much in evidence.
Valium is not the answer.
What if the person is unconscious. What then? how can the person be "counseled.?"
Generally speaking people with mental illnesses are not unconscious Sandy. And no, they are not "counselled" if they are unconscious. I don't know what you mean. There are no tablets that can stop someone deliberately vomiting up their food...so Im puzzled what treatment you think a doctor can give, other than psycholloigcal therapy
Some might be. They are Diagnosed without the person speaking and put in a hospital, with specialists coming to see the patient.
I made my point here.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 04:33:00 PM
Some might be. They are Diagnosed without the person speaking and put in a hospital, with specialists coming to see the patient.
I made my point here.
Sandy, how do you think doctors can treat soemoen with bulimia, who is "unconscious"???? if they are unconsciious, and comatose they wont be fed normally and will nto in any case be able to deliberaltey vomit up tehir food.
I am not rehashing this with you about unconscious patients. Diana got the help she needed the past can't be changed. I think the wrong people were sent to treat her and I stand by this opinion. Potentially, valium could have just made the situation worse. In many ways, I think all of this is a moot point but i think treatment of bulimia had advanced by the time Diana went to Dr. Lipsedge. She also did not just avoid facing her feelings and get the physical manifestation of her stress. She even faced Camilla and told her how she felt and did not "keep in" the feelings. Hiding true feelings can cause physical ills like ulcers.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 04:39:21 PM
I am not rehashing this with you. Diana go the help she needed the past can't be changed. I think the wrong people were sent to treat her and I stand by this opinion. Potentially, valium could have just made the situation worse.
Valium would not make the situation worse.. unless Diana went on taking it for a long time.. She did not take it for long....
She got help when she decided to go for treatment and to discuss her problems with a psychiatric specialist in eating disorders. There is no magic cure or tablet that a doctor can give to cure this problem...
Valium can lead to addiction. It is not "harmless". If Diana were prone to being addicted to it, problems could have happened.
So why did she get sent the wrong doctors by her husband? I think she had great rapport with Dr. Lipsedge.
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 04:44:52 PM
Valium can lead to addiction. It is not "harmless". If Diana were prone to being addicted to it, problems could have happened.
So why did she get sent the wrong doctors by her husband? I think she had great rapport with Dr. Lipsedge.
she could have seen Dr Lipsedge if she had asked for him. But he could not treat her until she was ready to talk...
Valium was not going to be addictive if diana took it for a short while under medical supervisition...
Sarah seemed not to bother too much with her sister. Maybe she just could not be bothered to refer Diana to Dr. Lipsedge. Strange.
Valium is reported to be potentially addictive.
Quote from: amabel on September 12, 2019, 09:56:09 AM
Anorexia does not usually involve throwing up.. that is bulimia. Sarah had anorexia, she dieted obsessively..Diana dieted and lost weight but she also binge ate and threw up, but she believed her weight loss wasn't showing. The 2 illnesses are boht food disorders but they are not the same.
Diana didn't develop the bulimia till after she got engaged and was part of the RF..but she was still apparently eating normally so her weight loss (to non experts) was a mystery. She was referred to a doctor by Charles and the RF..but she did not talk to him about her food compuslions. There is nothing strange about this.. Bulimics usually hide their illness and are secretive and don't admit to themselves that they have a problem
This quote explains what can happen when someone has anorexia:
"You may try to lose weight by starving yourself, exercising excessively, or using laxatives,
vomiting, or other
methods to purge yourself after eating."
Anorexia Nervosa - HelpGuide.org (https://www.helpguide.org/articles/eating-disorders/anorexia-nervosa.htm)
Diana showed drastic weight loss early on. Did her family not see photos of her in this state, if they did not visit her? Why did it take Diana's friend to "raise the alarm?"
A doctor has to ask what's the matter and look for symptoms and such before prescribing any medication. This is standard procedure. On what basis did the doctor prescribe valium? It doesn't make any sense, IMO.
Double post auto-merged: September 12, 2019, 05:33:30 PM
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 05:24:52 PM
Sarah seemed not to bother too much with her sister. Maybe she just could not be bothered to refer Diana to Dr. Lipsedge. Strange.
Valium is reported to be potentially addictive.
This is baffling to me. Why did her family not make the effort? Was it a question of jealousy? I don't know.
Carolyn Bartholmew Diana's friend noticed her weight loss in the run up to the wedding. Her sisters and her mother did not appear to be "alarmed." Frances admitted she had a hands off attitude towards Diana in the run up to the wedding. She did help her pick out the suit for the engagement picture and other tasks but seemed to turn a blind eye. I wonder if Sarah just ignored it and did not even recommend Dr. Lipsedge.
It is odd that journalists and other people were making remarks as to her weight loss after her marriage.
And it was her friend Carolyn pushing Diana to do something.
Perhaps some members of her family were just happy that she married the POW and having that connection?
I do wonder how Diana was treated growing up.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 12, 2019, 05:56:43 PM
It is odd that journalists and other people were making remarks as to her weight loss after her marriage.
And it was her friend Carolyn pushing Diana to do something.
Perhaps some members of her family were just happy that she married the POW and having that connection?
I do wonder how Diana was treated growing up.
Sarah said to a journalist "we'd like to talk to her about it.." which suggests that trying to hint to her that she was losing too much weight wasn't getting them anywhere. James Colthurst who is a doctor, who realised that she was throwng up her meals.. said that it was difficult to talk to her about it. It is characteristic of anorexia and even more bulimia that the sufferers keep it secret and wont talk about it. When Diana finally realised that she had a problem then she was able to go for therapy and got some control over it.
Double post auto-merged: September 13, 2019, 06:50:55 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 12, 2019, 05:24:52 PM
Sarah seemed not to bother too much with her sister. Maybe she just could not be bothered to refer Diana to Dr. Lipsedge. Strange.
Valium is reported to be potentially addictive.
Many drugs are potentailly additicve? which is why they are taken under medical supervision and only for short periods, with monitoring. That does not mean that they cannot be helpful..
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 06:04:25 AM
Sarah said to a journalist "we'd like to talk to her about it.." which suggests that trying to hint to her that she was losing too much weight wasn't getting them anywhere. James Colthurst who is a doctor, who realised that she was throwng up her meals.. said that it was difficult to talk to her about it. It is characteristic of anorexia and even more bulimia that the sufferers keep it secret and wont talk about it. When Diana finally realised that she had a problem then she was able to go for therapy and got some control over it.
But still, Carolyn took it a step further and got very stern with Diana and that's what made her go to the doctors. Why weren't anyone in her family that persistant?
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 11:23:30 AM
But still, Carolyn took it a step further and got very stern with Diana and that's what made her go to the doctors. Why weren't anyone in her family that persistant?
we don't know really what happened. Carolyn is said to have said she would go to the papers if Diana didn't seek treatement... but If that were the case I would say that Diana would not have done well in therapy because she was all but forced into it..
It depends. Sometimes you need a push. And the proof is in the pudding because Diana got better, and at least gained control of her bulimia. So, if Carolyn did indeed do this, then she did the right thing. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 12:16:05 PM
It depends. Sometimes you need a push. And the proof is in the pudding because Diana got better, and at least gained control of her bulimia. So, if Carolyn did indeed do this, then she did the right thing. IMO.
as I said, we don't really know. According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful. I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem
Diana liked Dr. Lipsedge. It could have been that had she not liked him she would have looked for another doctor. But she was very happy with him as her choice of doctor.
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 12:28:15 PM
as I said, we don't really know. According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful. I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem
And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.
Quote from: TLLK on September 13, 2019, 05:09:16 PM
And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.
some reports say that James Colthurst had a role in persuading her to seek treatment...
Yes I do believe that he'd met with Diana for lunch and noticed her behavior was that of a bulimic after she made repeated trips to the restroom after finishing a meal.
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 12:28:15 PM
as I said, we don't really know. According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful. I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem
But it was successful. Diana got help with her bulimia. She was "pushed" in the right direction which was what she needed.
The question to me is this, why was it her friends giving her the push so to speak?
Quote from: TLLK on September 13, 2019, 05:09:16 PM
And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.
The patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 08:37:14 PM
But it was successful. Diana got help with her bulimia. She was "pushed" in the right direction which was what she needed.
The question to me is this, why was it her friends giving her the push so to speak?
That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.
However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.
Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.
QuoteThe patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium
More importantly, Diana was ready to admit that she had a mental illness (binge eating/bulimia) and was ready to seek treatment.
When the royal family tried to have her meet with with a mental healthcare professional years before, she was rightly prescribed Valium as she displayed the symptoms of anxiety and depression that would have had the doctor prescribe as well as having Diana meet with a psychiatrist. That would have been part of the recommended protocol for treatment. If it hadn't been prescribed then it would have been malpractice.
Diana wasn't ready to accept the fact that she needed treatment and therefore it wasn't going to be successful. :(
I don't think she was "rightly prescribed" Valium. I think it was more of a band aid.
And the royals did not even understand morning sickness which Diana had while pregnant with William.
I don't think those doctors knew what they were doing, it was a good thing Diana had to stop taking valium after she found out she was pregnant.
Diana got the wrong treatment. And no wonder she was hesitant to seek treatment after this bad experience.
Her sister should have been more concerned since her sister had an eating disorder.
@sandy-You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.
Quote from: sandy on September 13, 2019, 10:30:28 PM
The patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium
if she would nto talk to them about her illness, there was nothing they could do but to treat some of her symptoms such as anxiety and tension. The Standard treatment for that was valium
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 07:21:19 AM
Quote from: Curryong on September 13, 2019, 10:47:04 PM
That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.
However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.
Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.
Its possible that Sarah Spencer did not want to give a lot of information to James Whittaker who was the journalist who first investigated the idea that Diana had an eating disorder....She may have actually tried to talk to Diana and perhaps had been persistently tryng for a few montsh... but it seems pretty clear that Diana like most people with Bulimia, wasn't ready for some years to admit that there was a problem or seek help for it.
Or its possible that she didn't say much.. She and Diana weren't that close I think as girls, and she may have found it hard to braoch the subject. we don't know for sure.. but I thnk she probably DID at least make some efforts to speak to her and was rebuffed. Colthurst who was a doctor and who knew what was wrong with Di, said that " you couldn't talk to her about it because she was so vulnerable" which suggests that any attempts to speak about it, however delicately phrased, met with anger or tears and Sarah and Jane and even Frances may have had the same problem that Di wasn't ready to talk about it.
I don't rate Frances SK very highty - but again, in her defence she may have tried to talk to Diana about the loss of weight and found that she was rebuffed..I agree that she seemed to vanish at times in Di's life.. such as when she was a young married.. on the excuse that young married couples don't want Ma hanging around. But again it is possible that if she HAD been trying to tlak to Di or Charles or both abut their marital problems, she might have gotten told to butt out. However I don't think she tried all that hard as regards supporting Di in the early difficult years of marriage...
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 07:23:28 AM
Quote from: TLLK on September 13, 2019, 11:14:22 PM
More importantly, Diana was ready to admit that she had a mental illness (binge eating/bulimia) and was ready to seek treatment.
When the royal family tried to have her meet with with a mental healthcare professional years before, she was rightly prescribed Valium as she displayed the symptoms of anxiety and depression that would have had the doctor prescribe as well as having Diana meet with a psychiatrist. That would have been part of the recommended protocol for treatment. If it hadn't been prescribed then it would have been malpractice.
Diana wasn't ready to accept the fact that she needed treatment and therefore it wasn't going to be successful. :(
As far as I know Diana DID see a psychatirist in the first months of marriage, which suggests she was in a pretty shaky mental state because of her bulimia and trying to adjust to royal life. And I think that Charles also had a few sessions - but she did not talk about her bulimia.. and therefore there was nothing doctors could do but prescribe tranquillisers.
Doctors can diagnose. Diana was not a 'mental patient.' SHe was subject to stress, her pregnancy with Will caused her discomfort and the royals did not "understand" morning sickness. Maybe the royals should have found doctors to tell them morning sickness does happen to some women. Then there was the Camilla issue. Doctors should not give out valium like candy. THese doctors seemed to have problems.
Valium was clearly not the answer.
Quote from: Curryong on September 13, 2019, 10:47:04 PM
That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.
However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.
Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.
If Wharfe is to be believed, Diana used to travel to her mother's in Scotland and she'd talk have long talks with her, and Frances would give advice. Supposedly she also visited the Wales' home sometimes in the 80s and got along with PC. I think that helped a bit.
Also, though i'm not sure, but didn't Frances husband leave her because he thought that she did not give him/their marriage enough attention? In other words she was preoccupied with Diana and her situation.
I think Frances is an interesting character and i'm not so sure her portrayal is entirely accurate, IMO.
If Frances did indeed take a hands off approach, I do wonder if it wasn't because of her being wary of taking on the "establishment". I think it must have been in a way traumatizing to have your spouse and mother "gang up" on you in order to prevent you from having custody. Maybe that did a number on her? Though of course this is just my speculation.
Another person who's absence is interesting is Diana's father. I've read somewhere that Diana said that he'd only come to visit for 20 minutes or so then leave. And when she came to him for advice he only gave generic answers.
In a way it seems to me that her family made no time for her, or had no time for her. Almost as if wanting her to put up and shut up when she married POW. IMO.
Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 11:36:54 AM
Doctors can diagnose. Diana was not a 'mental patient.' SHe was subject to stress, her pregnancy with Will caused her discomfort and the royals did not "understand" morning sickness. Maybe the royals should have found doctors to tell them morning sickness does happen to some women. Then there was the Camilla issue. Doctors should not give out valium like candy. THese doctors seemed to have problems.
Valium was clearly not the answer.
they were not treating her morning sickness. They were treating her bulimia and depression. THey do not "give out Valium like candy". It is prescribed for a period of time and then reviewed. Since Diana did not take it for logn due to her pregnancy I dot see what the issue is. If she had been taking it for a long time, it might have been a problem but that would not happen
QuoteDoctors can diagnose. Diana was not a 'mental patient.'
@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 01:01:21 PM
@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.
Bulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 01:06:19 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 14, 2019, 11:50:50 AM
If Wharfe is to be believed, Diana used to travel to her mother's in Scotland and she'd talk have long talks with her, and Frances would give advice. Supposedly she also visited the Wales' home sometimes in the 80s and got along with PC. I think that helped a bit.
Also, though i'm not sure, but didn't Frances husband leave her because he thought that she did not give him/their marriage enough attention? In other words she was preoccupied with Diana and her situation.
I think Frances is an interesting character and i'm not so sure her portrayal is entirely accurate, IMO.
If Frances did indeed take a hands off approach, I do wonder if it wasn't because of her being wary of taking on the "establishment". I think it must have been in a way traumatizing to have your spouse and mother "gang up" on you in order to prevent you from having custody. Maybe that did a number on her? Though of course this is just my speculation.
Another person who's absence is interesting is Diana's father. I've read somewhere that Diana said that he'd only come to visit for 20 minutes or so then leave. And when she came to him for advice he only gave generic answers.
In a way it seems to me that her family made no time for her, or had no time for her. Almost as if wanting her to put up and shut up when she married POW. IMO.
She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults. So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to help...
QuoteBulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well
Absolutely true, but I was speaking about the time shortly after the honeymoon when she was treated for anxiety and depression. (She still wasn't ready to admit the bulimia) As I recall she was sent to a psychiatrist then as well.
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 01:10:29 PM
Absolutely true, but I was speaking about the time shortly after the honeymoon when she was treated for anxiety and depression. (She still wasn't ready to admit the bulimia) As I recall she was sent to a psychiatrist then as well.
Oh yes I am not sure when the RF realised abt the Bulimia. I think they probably were puzzled abuot her sudden change after marriage to increased depression and mood swings..and I would say they were even more puzzled about the weight loss.. since at times she would be eating a lot of food. but they probably thought of it as just excessive dieting at first, since nt much was known about bulimia..
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 01:01:21 PM
@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.
Valium is not the answer to all ills. It makes people sleepy and tired and out of it. And it is addictive. I think the psychiatrist was wrong.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 02:09:37 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 01:04:26 PM
Bulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 01:06:19 PM
She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults. So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to help...
Maybe just maybe her mother could have stepped in at the right time, when Diana was stressed and worried before and after the wedding. It would not have hurt for her to try. Her sisters just dismissed Diana's concerns.
Diana was not 'rebuffing' anyone when she spoke to her sisters. They rebuffed her.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 02:12:20 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 11:53:26 AM
they were not treating her morning sickness. They were treating her bulimia and depression. THey do not "give out Valium like candy". It is prescribed for a period of time and then reviewed. Since Diana did not take it for logn due to her pregnancy I dot see what the issue is. If she had been taking it for a long time, it might have been a problem but that would not happen
They were not sympathetic to the morning sickness in that family. They did not "understand " it because they did not experience it themselves. Diana told Morton she had a very uncomfortable pregnancy with William and at Balmoral the royal ladies did not "understand it." Even Charles made some comment about it. They needed some doctor to talk to them about it if they did not experience. THis is clearly spelled out in the Morton book.
SOmetimes Valium is given out like candy. It has happened.
Diana said she got "doses" of valium not one a day. Not healthy in the least.
Valium can be a useful tool, to relieve anxiety temporarily. it si not taken to the point where someone can become addicted. It is not a substitute for psychotherapy but Diana did not talk bout her bulimia to her doctors.
Diana almost certainly didn't talk to her sisters about her bulimia. Its possible that Sarah and Jane tried ot speak to her about her weight but she would not listen at the time.
Quote
Valium is not the answer to all ills. It makes people sleepy and tired and out of it. And it is addictive. I think the psychiatrist was wrong.
As
@amabel-Pointed out it is prescribed because of its proven effectiveness in treating patients with anxiety and Diana presented the symptoms of a patient with anxiety. Yes it must be monitored, but because if has been proven to be effective for many patients, it is part of the protocol along with talk therapy which was also prescribed for her. :)
I understand that you believe that it was wrong, but the psychiatrist who was treating her believed that it was necessary to prescribe it for his patient. To not do so would have been malpractice. However when it was discovered that Diana was pregnant, she would need to stop taking the drug which she did. Had Diana been honest and revealed to that psychiatrist that she was binge eating and purging, her treatment would have been to address that illness as well as her anxiety and depression. Most likely she would have then been referred to Lipsedge at that point.
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 01:04:26 PM
She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults. So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to help...
Well that is sad when you think about it. Her family might have not been able to do anything about her marriage, but they could have embraced her more when she needed them. Their attitude towards Diana is very strange, almost like she was an afterthought. I do wonder if she was bullied by them growing up...
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 02:20:45 PM
Valium can be a useful tool, to relieve anxiety temporarily. it si not taken to the point where someone can become addicted. It is not a substitute for psychotherapy but Diana did not talk bout her bulimia to her doctors.
Diana almost certainly didn't talk to her sisters about her bulimia. Its possible that Sarah and Jane tried ot speak to her about her weight but she would not listen at the time.
It is a bandaid. I know people who were given valium for stress and they could not just keep on taking it. There had to be limits. And it causes dependence.
I don't think Sarah and Jane paid attention much to Diana. I would not call it "almost certainly."
Diana was very upset about Charles' actions pre wedding they just brushed it off. If they had this attitude it would be a waste of time for Diana to bring anything up to them.
If the doctors Charles sent to her were IMO useless.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 04:12:55 PM
As @amabel-Pointed out it is prescribed because of its proven effectiveness in treating patients with anxiety and Diana presented the symptoms of a patient with anxiety. Yes it must be monitored, but because if has been proven to be effective for many patients, it is part of the protocol along with talk therapy which was also prescribed for her. :)
I understand that you believe that it was wrong, but the psychiatrist who was treating her believed that it was necessary to prescribe it for his patient. To not do so would have been malpractice. However when it was discovered that Diana was pregnant, she would need to stop taking the drug which she did. Had Diana been honest and revealed to that psychiatrist that she was binge eating and purging, her treatment would have been to address that illness as well as her anxiety and depression. Most likely she would have then been referred to Lipsedge at that point.
I think the doctors sent to her were not exactly the best choices. They could have referred her to Lipsedge. If they had no ideas about Diana's condition it is their problem. I don't get why Diana keeps being given all the responsiblity fo the doctors shortcomings.
QuoteWell that is sad when you think about it. Her family might have not been able to do anything about her marriage, but they could have embraced her more when she needed them. Their attitude towards Diana is very strange, almost like she was an afterthought. I do wonder if she was bullied by them growing up...
Well I do tend to agree that Diana was a bit of an afterthought to her parents. Her siblings were known to tease her for her academic struggles and called her "Brian" after a slow witted snail cartoon character. :(
QuoteI think the doctors sent to her were not exactly the best choices. They could have referred her to Lipsedge. If they had no ideas about Diana's condition it is their problem. I don't get why Diana keeps being given all the responsiblity fo the doctors shortcomings.
@sandy- It is vital that patients share their symptoms and conditions with all healthcare professionals or else they risk ineffective treatment. Yes adult patients do have a responsibility to be as honest as possible with their healthcare specialists. Diana was an adult but she knew at some level that her binge eating/purging behavior was unhealthy but she couldn't stop herself. This is why she required the assistance of a psychiatrist who specialized in eating disorders. Why would doctors recommend her to a psychiatrist that specialized in eating disorders if she went to great lengths to conceal the fact that she was binge eating and purging? She was doing her best to hide this from everyone. Unless Diana was ready to share with mental healthcare professionals the manner in which she was taking comfort (binge eating for her anxiety and depression) and then the means of which she was controlling her weight (purging), how would they know she had an eating disorder? She was not anorexic like her sister Sarah who was starving herself by extreme reduction in her food intake. Diana was seen by staff to be eating. She didn't want anyone to know about her purging though Charles was aware of it later. He could/should have urged her to get assistance, but she wasn't ready to admit that she had an issue and therefore wouldn't be receptive to treatment. Keep in mind her friends had to threaten her with public exposure by the media to force her into accepting that she had a problem and needed help.
Diana was certainly not an afterthought. DIana was planned because JOhn wanted a male heir. The children were planned and the first male Heir JOhn died soon after his birth so John and Frances had to try again. Frances had a pregnancy after John and before DIana (she miscarried) and was nervous about even telling JOhn lest he have another 'disappointment' that the baby was a girl.
Doctors have a responsibility to. Let's just suppose a patient has the binge and purge and may be ignorant about what she or he has (this is not about Diana just a general statement), then it is clearly up to the doctors to come up with a diagnosis and treatment.
Both Sarah and DIana had eating disorders.
Diana knew she felt sick at Balmoral and told MOrton this. The royals thought she was being a "problem" even about the morning sickness because the royal women never had it.
QuoteDoctors have a responsibility to. Let's just suppose a patient has the binge and purge and may be ignorant about what she or he has (this is not about Diana just a general statement), then it is clearly up to the doctors to come up with a diagnosis and treatment.
@sandy-How are doctors to know about this unless the adult patient or the parents of a child/teen tell them that the patient is binging and purging. :shrug: Unless they happen to catch the patient in the act..the patient or their parent/conservator/guardian has to be the one to explain why they've booked an appointment about a suspected case of binge eating and purging. A physician might suspect that there is a problem if there are physical symptoms but the patient or his/her parent has to confirm this before an exam can happen.
Patient Responsibilities | American Medical Association (https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/patient-responsibilities)
QuoteSuccessful medical care requires ongoing collaboration between patients and physicians. Their partnership requires both individuals to take an active role in the healing process.
Autonomous, competent patients control the decisions that direct their health care. With that exercise of self-governance and choice comes a number of responsibilities. Patients contribute to the collaborative effort when they:
(a) Are truthful and forthcoming with their physicians and strive to express their concerns clearly. Physicians likewise should encourage patients to raise questions or concerns.
(b) Provide as complete a medical history as they can, including providing information about past illnesses, medications, hospitalizations, family history of illness, and other matters relating to present health.
(c) Cooperate with agreed-on treatment plans. Since adhering to treatment is often essential to public and individual safety, patients should disclose whether they have or have not followed the agreed-on plan and indicate when they would like to reconsider the plan.
Sadly Diana was not following parts A and B with her initial visits to treat her anxiety and depression. Since she was not treated for her severe mental illness-eating disorder until after her two pregnancies, it's clear that she wasn't being truthful with her psychiatrist, general practitioner, and OB/GYN.
She wasn't treated until her friends basically threatened to go to the media unless she sought treatment for her binge eating and purging.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 11:42:50 PM
Had Diana been truthful with her doctors from the beginning, then she could have been treated earlier. However she wasn't ready to talk about what she described as her "secret disease." It wasn't until she accepted that she had a problem, required treatment for it, saw a qualified psychiatrist who specialized in eating disorders was she able to overcome the urge to binge and purge.
Princess Diana's Legacy on Mental Health, Eating Disorders | Time (https://time.com/4918729/princess-diana-mental-health-legacy/)
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 11:44:49 PM
QuoteRemarkably, in the years during which Diana spoke publicly about her bulimia, rates of women seeking treatment for bulimia in Great Britain more than doubled. The press dubbed this phenomenon the ?Diana effect.? Mental health practitioners credited this shift to greater public awareness and dialogue about bulimia, as well as women identifying with Diana. If a princess could be bulimic, so could they. If she could explain why she hurt herself, they could recognize that side of themselves too. If she could overcome her eating disorder, they could too.
Self-disclosures, particularly of people in positions of power or visibility, can change how other people approach their own psychological health. Researchers have found that knowing someone else with a mental illness can encourage others to get help. ?It is notable that the Princess?s death in 1997 coincided with the beginning of the decline in bulimia incidence,? researchers wrote in a 2005 study published in the British Journal of Psychiatry on time trends in eating disorder incidences. ?Identification with a public figure?s struggle with bulimia might have temporarily decreased the shame associated with the illness, and encouraged women to seek help for the first time.?
Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 06:39:11 PM
It is a bandaid. I know people who were given valium for stress and they could not just keep on taking it. There had to be limits. And it causes dependence.
I don't think Sarah and Jane paid attention much to Diana. I would not call it "almost certainly."
Diana was very upset about Charles' actions pre wedding they just brushed it off. If they had this attitude it would be a waste of time for Diana to bring anything up to them.
If the doctors Charles sent to her were IMO useless.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 06:40:43 PM
I think the doctors sent to her were not exactly the best choices. They could have referred her to Lipsedge. If they had no ideas about Diana's condition it is their problem. I don't get why Diana keeps being given all the responsiblity fo the doctors shortcomings.
but Diana didn't "keep on takng it". She only took it for a very short time. In any case, doctors do not prescribe it for long periods.. so if she had been on it for a time, they would have moniotired her progress and suggested other treatments if they felt that she was not getting better and the Valium was only meant as a short term treatment.
She was pregnant and had to stop taking it. She did not return to Valium after she gave birth. IT was said she took daily "doses".
Double post auto-merged: September 15, 2019, 10:41:54 AM
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 11:24:44 PM
@sandy-How are doctors to know about this unless the adult patient or the parents of a child/teen tell them that the patient is binging and purging. :shrug: Unless they happen to catch the patient in the act..the patient or their parent/conservator/guardian has to be the one to explain why they've booked an appointment about a suspected case of binge eating and purging. A physician might suspect that there is a problem if there are physical symptoms but the patient or his/her parent has to confirm this before an exam can happen.
Patient Responsibilities | American Medical Association (https://www.ama-assn.org/delivering-care/ethics/patient-responsibilities)
Sadly Diana was not following parts A and B with her initial visits to treat her anxiety and depression. Since she was not treated for her severe mental illness-eating disorder until after her two pregnancies, it's clear that she wasn't being truthful with her psychiatrist, general practitioner, and OB/GYN.
She wasn't treated until her friends basically threatened to go to the media unless she sought treatment for her binge eating and purging.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 11:42:50 PM
Had Diana been truthful with her doctors from the beginning, then she could have been treated earlier. However she wasn't ready to talk about what she described as her "secret disease." It wasn't until she accepted that she had a problem, required treatment for it, saw a qualified psychiatrist who specialized in eating disorders was she able to overcome the urge to binge and purge.
Princess Diana's Legacy on Mental Health, Eating Disorders | Time (https://time.com/4918729/princess-diana-mental-health-legacy/)
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 11:44:49 PM
I doubt Diana did not tell her doctor about morning sickness. There were no drugs to ease it up that did not cause danger to the child's development (at that time). she just had to deal with the morning sickness. I see nothing "clear" about anything. There is doctor-patient confidentiality. What she told them is not known. I doubt she'd hide the morning sickness from her doctor.
The morning sickness was not the issue Sandy. She had bulimia. that's a mental illness that requires "talking therapy"... Valium can help a little but if she had discussed her bulimia she would have been referrerd to an eating specialist and had psychotherapy..
I relally don't know what you mean about the Valium. As I've said now, dozens of times, she took it for a short time. It was not likely she'd get addicted to it. and yes it would probably be one tablet a day.. but she didn't kepe on taking it. And it would not have been prescribed indefinitely because it IS a short term aid to depression or other conditions not a cure.....
Quote from: TLLK on September 14, 2019, 07:06:43 PM
Well I do tend to agree that Diana was a bit of an afterthought to her parents. Her siblings were known to tease her for her academic struggles and called her "Brian" after a slow witted snail cartoon character. :(
:cry: :cry:
I think some of Diana's insecurities stems from her childhood. Some kids are very sensitive and I believe that Diana was one. I mean, to even call her a name after a slow tv carachter is a bit much. It's a form of bullying. IMO.
They were not that involved in her adulthood if i've understood it correctly. I don't quite get why. It's sad when you think about it.
I do wonder if her sisters would have been more "accepting" of the situation had one of them married PC.
Too bad that no one talked her out of that marriage, IMO.
Quote from: amabel on September 15, 2019, 10:55:52 AM
The morning sickness was not the issue Sandy. She had bulimia. that's a mental illness that requires "talking therapy"... Valium can help a little but if she had discussed her bulimia she would have been referrerd to an eating specialist and had psychotherapy..
I relally don't know what you mean about the Valium. As I've said now, dozens of times, she took it for a short time. It was not likely she'd get addicted to it. and yes it would probably be one tablet a day.. but she didn't kepe on taking it. And it would not have been prescribed indefinitely because it IS a short term aid to depression or other conditions not a cure.....
I was answering TLK's post who referred to OB GYN physician the doctor seeing Diana during her pregnancy.
She said she had "doses" of quantities of valium.
It can be addictive as I have said previously.
So did the doctors do the talking therapy. Doctor-patient confidentiality is in place here so it is not known what approach. Diana was just assigned the valium
Quote from: sandy on September 15, 2019, 12:50:49 PM
I was answering TLK's post who referred to OB GYN physician the doctor seeing Diana during her pregnancy.
She said she had "doses" of quantities of valium.
It can be addictive as I have said previously.
So did the doctors do the talking therapy. Doctor-patient confidentiality is in place here so it is not known what approach. Diana was just assigned the valium
As far as I know yes Diana did have sessions with a psychotherapist in the first months of her marriage... but she did not discuss her bulimia, so he could only work with what he had from her.
And as I have said previously Valium like most drugs can be addictive.. which is why Doctors do not prescribe it for long periods of time. So there was no danger of her becoming addicted as the doctor would have monitored her taking it and would not have given her large amounts of it.. and in any case since she was pregnant soon after her marriage, she would have had to come off it after a few weeks anyway. SO I don't understand your saying it is addictive. Yes it is.. but people do not routinely take it ofr long periods as doctors do not prescribe it for long periods. I very much doubt if one of the queen's doctors was going to give her massive doses of Valium and in any case she only took it for a few weeks....
When Diana reached a stage some years later, that she was willing ot accept she had a problem with food, she was ready to see a psychiatrist who specialised in eating disorders and to work with him..
QuoteI think some of Diana's insecurities stems from her childhood. Some kids are very sensitive and I believe that Diana was one. I mean, to even call her a name after a slow tv carachter is a bit much. It's a form of bullying. IMO.
They were not that involved in her adulthood if i've understood it correctly. I don't quite get why. It's sad when you think about it.
I do wonder if her sisters would have been more "accepting" of the situation had one of them married PC.
Too bad that no one talked her out of that marriage, IMO.
I wholeheartedly agree. This was a very unhappy household just prior to and after the divorce. :no:
Double post auto-merged: September 15, 2019, 01:46:40 PM
QuoteI doubt Diana did not tell her doctor about morning sickness. There were no drugs to ease it up that did not cause danger to the child's development (at that time). she just had to deal with the morning sickness. I see nothing "clear" about anything. There is doctor-patient confidentiality. What she told them is not known. I doubt she'd hide the morning sickness from her doctor.
I'm sure that Diana mentioned morning sickness to her OB/Gyn. However what she didn't choose to reveal to him/her was her binge eating and purging. Had she done so, she would have been strictly monitored throughout her pregnancy and in the post partum period she would have begun treatment for her illness with a qualified psychiatrist who specialized in eating disorders. More than likely she and Charles would have been advised to delay a second pregnancy until her eating disorder was under control. Had she been truthful with her OB/Gyn though she would have been able to receive treatment years before it actually happened. :no: Those who suffer from them go to great lengths to hide their disease, so it is vital that patients realize the harm they are causing themselves and accept the fact that they need help from a qualified mental health specialist. They need to get to the root of the issue which is typically about control in a chaotic life.
Pregnancy and Eating Disorders | National Eating Disorders Association (https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/pregnancy-and-eating-disorders)
QuoteIf you are pregnant and struggling with disordered eating:
Be honest with your prenatal health provider regarding past or present struggles with an eating disorder or disordered eating. If they aren?t sensitive to your struggle and concerns, look for a provider who will be more considerate of your experiences.
Extra appointments may be necessary to more closely track the growth and development of your baby.
Consult a nutritionist with expertise in eating disorders before or immediately after becoming pregnant. Work with the nutritionist throughout the pregnancy to create a plan for healthy eating and weight gain. It?s often helpful to continue to see them postpartum.
Individual counseling and support groups during and after pregnancy can help you cope with your concerns and fears regarding food, weight gain, body image, and the new role of parenting.
Other classes on pregnancy, childbirth, child development, and parenting skills can also be helpful in preparation for this stage of your life.
Allow your prenatal health provider to weigh you. This information is essential to tracking the health of your baby. If you would prefer not to monitor your weight gain, ask your doctor about standing on the scale backwards and instruct them to not share the number with you.
Talk to your doctor before attending a prenatal exercise class to make sure it fits in with your recovery plan.
Double post auto-merged: September 15, 2019, 04:03:50 PM
Frankly I don't believe that episodes such as Diana being photographed topless in 1996 were helpful to someone who had issues with her body image. :no:
Prince William teased over Princess Diana topless photos - INSIDER (https://www.insider.com/prince-william-teased-over-princess-diana-topless-photos-nicholas-coleridge-2019-9)
Double post auto-merged: September 15, 2019, 04:04:48 PM
QuotePrince William suffered from merciless teasing in school after topless photos of Princess Diana were published in 1996, according to a new memoir from Vogue publisher Nicholas Coleridge.
According to "The Glossy Years," previewed by The Daily Mail and The Times, William, then 14, called Diana from his exclusive boarding school Eton College and told her that he was being teased over the "size of her breasts."
In The Daily Mail, Coleridge recalled the lunch conversation he had with Diana where she revealed the detail.
Read more: Prince Harry just took a leaf out of Meghan Markle's book by defying tradition and shutting his own car door
Diana reportedly said, "William rang me from Eton. Poor boy, he's only 14. He was upset. He said some of the other boys were teasing him, saying my t--- are too small," before asking Coleridge his opinion on the matter.
Coleridge recalls, "I became breathless, and went as red as a guardsman's tunic."
Wouldn't the OB GYN doctor's concern be the pregnancy? And wouldn't he talk to Diana about the morning sickness? Diana was looked down upon by the other royal ladies because they never experienced morning sickness.
Diana was not photographed " topless" they were not like Kate's photographs. She had a strap down on her bikini top. She did not run around topless like Fergie did. THe photos were blurry. I never read about William and the "topless" photographs, it was not mentioned in Diana biographies. THis sounds like tab gossip and Coleridge should be ashamed of himself.It makes it sound Diana deliberately posed topless. It was a blurry shot of her from photographers. If it were such a "critical" moment how come none of Diana's biographers made anything of it? Seems to me like tab gossip.
It was light years from what happened to William and Kate.
So how come the story was not published earlier? This is shameful gossip to me and again having a go at the Dead Diana.
QuoteWouldn't the OB GYN doctor's concern be the pregnancy? And wouldn't he talk to Diana about the morning sickness? Diana was looked down upon by the other royal ladies because they never experienced morning sickness.
@sandy-When a woman goes to an OB/Gyn to confirm her pregnancy and then have the doctor take her on as a patient, the doctor requires a patient to disclose their medical history including all illnesses, surgeries, drug/alcohol use, mental illness etc..because her history has an effect upon her maternal health and the health of the developing fetus. If a woman has a pre-existing condition such as a mental illness such as the one Diana had, he/she would need to know about it in order to ensure that the mother and child are receiving the proper care and nutrition to sustain a healthy pregnancy and delivery. The eating disorder affects the pregnancy so the doctor must work with the mother and those treating her eating disorder. If he/she doesn't do so...it's malpractice. However the responsibility of being truthful with the OB/GYN first begins with the patient.
Again here are the risks involved with for a woman and her baby when it comes to pregnancy and eating disorders and why it is VITAL to disclose to the OB/GYN.
QuoteComplications of Disordered Eating During Pregnancy
Risks for the Pregnant Person: Poor nutrition, dehydration, cardiac irregularities, gestational diabetes, severe depression during pregnancy, premature birth, labor complications, difficulties nursing, and postpartum depression.
Risks for the Baby: Poor development, premature birth, low birth weight, respiratory distress, feeding difficulties, and other perinatal complications.
Anorexia nervosa: Individuals can be underweight and may not gain enough weight during pregnancy. They risk having a baby with abnormally low birth weight and related health problems.
Bulimia nervosa: Those who continue to purge may suffer dehydration, chemical imbalances or even cardiac irregularities. Pregnancy heightens these health risks.
Binge eating disorder: Binge eating is often correlated with weight gain, which may lead to a greater risk of developing high blood pressure and gestational diabetes.
Quotehttps://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/pregnancy-and-eating-disorders
Morning sickness
is not the same as binge eating and purging. Typical morning sickness (like Diana had) is brought on by the change in hormones during pregnancy. Diana's eating disorder would have required specialized care because it is a mental illness.
QuoteWhat If I Become Pregnant While Struggling with an Eating Disorder?
Though having an eating disorder may decrease the chances of pregnancy, sometimes those with eating disorders do become pregnant. When this happens, steps should be taken to protect you and your baby. Professionals can address the specific needs related to pregnancy and disordered eating only if you are willing to be completely honest with them about your struggles.
If you are pregnant and struggling with disordered eating:
Be honest with your prenatal health provider regarding past or present struggles with an eating disorder or disordered eating. If they aren?t sensitive to your struggle and concerns, look for a provider who will be more considerate of your experiences.
Extra appointments may be necessary to more closely track the growth and development of your baby.
Consult a nutritionist with expertise in eating disorders before or immediately after becoming pregnant. Work with the nutritionist throughout the pregnancy to create a plan for healthy eating and weight gain. It?s often helpful to continue to see them postpartum.
Individual counseling and support groups during and after pregnancy can help you cope with your concerns and fears regarding food, weight gain, body image, and the new role of parenting.
Other classes on pregnancy, childbirth, child development, and parenting skills can also be helpful in preparation for this stage of your life.
Allow your prenatal health provider to weigh you. This information is essential to tracking the health of your baby. If you would prefer not to monitor your weight gain, ask your doctor about standing on the scale backwards and instruct them to not share the number with you.
Talk to your doctor before attending a prenatal exercise class to make sure it fits in with your recovery plan.
It's a shame that the some of the Windsor ladies had believed the older medical thinking that the pregnancy related nausea was something that could be controlled.
But pregnancy related nausea can be controlled, can't it? There are drugs and techniques such as eating small light meals which can improve it? And it does go away as the hormones settle down...
One anti morning sickness drug caused deformity of children . It was taken off the market. Diana said she had an uncomfortable pregnancy with William the whole time.
Double post auto-merged: September 16, 2019, 01:45:30 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 16, 2019, 02:38:27 AM
@sandy-When a woman goes to an OB/Gyn to confirm her pregnancy and then have the doctor take her on as a patient, the doctor requires a patient to disclose their medical history including all illnesses, surgeries, drug/alcohol use, mental illness etc..because her history has an effect upon her maternal health and the health of the developing fetus. If a woman has a pre-existing condition such as a mental illness such as the one Diana had, he/she would need to know about it in order to ensure that the mother and child are receiving the proper care and nutrition to sustain a healthy pregnancy and delivery. The eating disorder affects the pregnancy so the doctor must work with the mother and those treating her eating disorder. If he/she doesn't do so...it's malpractice. However the responsibility of being truthful with the OB/GYN first begins with the patient.
Again here are the risks involved with for a woman and her baby when it comes to pregnancy and eating disorders and why it is VITAL to disclose to the OB/GYN.
Morning sickness is not the same as binge eating and purging. Typical morning sickness (like Diana had) is brought on by the change in hormones during pregnancy. Diana's eating disorder would have required specialized care because it is a mental illness.
It's a shame that the some of the Windsor ladies had believed the older medical thinking that the pregnancy related nausea was something that could be controlled.
TLK I do know the difference between morning sickness and eating disorder no need for you to explain it.
Diana had both at the same time.
You brought up OB GYN doctor who presumably would help Diana with the morning sickness. And of course Diana had those doctors treating her before she knew she was pregnant. So if she were "treated" why would she have done the same thing with the OBGYN
QuoteSo if she were "treated" why would she have done the same thing with the OBGYN
The two doctors (OB/GYN and psychiatrist) would need to work together to ensure the best outcome for mother and developing child as an OB/GYN might feel that he/she does not have the proper training and experience to work with one. An expectant mother with a pre-existing condition be it a mental or physical illness needs to have all of her healthcare providers working together. :)
QuoteIf you are pregnant and struggling with disordered eating:
Be honest with your prenatal health provider regarding past or present struggles with an eating disorder or disordered eating. If they aren?t sensitive to your struggle and concerns, look for a provider who will be more considerate of your experiences.
Extra appointments may be necessary to more closely track the growth and development of your baby.
Consult a nutritionist with expertise in eating disorders before or immediately after becoming pregnant. Work with the nutritionist throughout the pregnancy to create a plan for healthy eating and weight gain. It?s often helpful to continue to see them postpartum.
Individual counseling and support groups during and after pregnancy can help you cope with your concerns and fears regarding food, weight gain, body image, and the new role of parenting.
If an expectant mother is not honest with their prenatal health care provider about their past and current health status, she and her developing fetus are at greater risk of serious and even fatal health risks.
QuoteComplications of Disordered Eating During Pregnancy
Risks for the Pregnant Person: Poor nutrition, dehydration, cardiac irregularities, gestational diabetes, severe depression during pregnancy, premature birth, labor complications, difficulties nursing, and postpartum depression.
Risks for the Baby: Poor development, premature birth, low birth weight, respiratory distress, feeding difficulties, and other perinatal complications.
Anorexia nervosa: Individuals can be underweight and may not gain enough weight during pregnancy. They risk having a baby with abnormally low birth weight and related health problems.
Bulimia nervosa: Those who continue to purge may suffer dehydration, chemical imbalances or even cardiac irregularities. Pregnancy heightens these health risks.
Binge eating disorder: Binge eating is often correlated with weight gain, which may lead to a greater risk of developing high blood pressure and gestational diabetes.
Diana stopped taking the valium when she realized she was pregnant. I imagine the OB GYN would have known about her taking the valium. Diana told Morton she had an uncomfortable pregnancy with William.
^^^Yes I believe that she would have mentioned the Valium. It's a shame that she didn't share about her eating disorder though as she could have begun treatment earlier on. :no:
Quote from: TLLK on September 15, 2019, 01:43:40 PM
I wholeheartedly agree. This was a very unhappy household just prior to and after the divorce. :no:
Divorce is, of course, never easy on the children. I wonder what would have happened if they had reached an agreement. I think it would have been better for the children if, for instance, Frances stayed at Althorp after the divorce. At least until Diana and Charles grew up a bit.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 06:32:17 PM
Divorce is, of course, never easy on the children. I wonder what would have happened if they had reached an agreement. I think it would have been better for the children if, for instance, Frances stayed at Althorp after the divorce. At least until Diana and Charles grew up a bit.
why would she stay at Althorp? She wanted to remarry
For the sake of her children. But I doubt earl Spencer would agree to such a thing. He always comes across as whiter than white which is interesting to me.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 06:47:55 PM
For the sake of her children. But I doubt earl Spencer would agree to such a thing. He always comes across as whiter than white which is interesting to me.
She left him. She was having an affair and watned to get out of the marriage and live in London, not Althrop. Of course Lord Spencer wasn't going to have her back and she did not want to be back there
I think it they could have reached a middle ground.
If earl Spencer was a bad husband why did she not just file for a divorce? Why wait until she started a relationship with another man. I just don't get it.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:04:06 PM
I think it they could have reached a middle ground.
If earl Spencer was a bad husband why did she not just file for a divorce? Why wait until she started a relationship with another man. I just don't get it.
what don't you get? She got bored iwht Spencer and country life. She fell in love with another man and left him
I don't she got bored. She was traumatized IMO. She became a mother at a very early age. Then she failed to produce a male heir, and her husband made her (if I remember correctly) to take different tests to see why she couldn't provide a male heir. Then her son died. I mean, all of this happened before she was thirty. I think that she had had enough. But why not just file for divorce, why wait until she had met someone is what I don't get.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:11:25 PM
I don't she got bored. She was traumatized IMO. She became a mother at a very early age. Then she failed to produce a male heir, and her husband made her (if I remember correctly) to take different tests to see why she couldn't provide a male heir. Then her son died. I mean, all of this happened before she was thirty. I think that she had had enough. But why not just file for divorce, why wait until she had met someone is what I don't get.
She left him because she'd fallen in love with another man..adn she was bored with life as a country squires wife. She took the children but wasn't able to retain custody...
Diana was sick because of morning sickness. I don't call that "boredom." Boredom does not include pain and discomfort.
Frances was taken to Doctors for checkups as to why she could not produce a live male heir. It was the husband's fault because he determined the sex. Frances was humiliated.
Quote from: sandy on September 16, 2019, 07:23:07 PM
Diana was sick because of morning sickness. I don't call that "boredom." Boredom does not include pain and discomfort.
Frances was taken to Doctors for checkups as to why she could not produce a live male heir. It was the husband's fault because he determined the sex. Frances was humiliated.
who said she was bored?????
One of the posts above claimed this.
Quote from: amabel on September 16, 2019, 07:15:46 PM
She left him because she'd fallen in love with another man..adn she was bored with life as a country squires wife. She took the children but wasn't able to retain custody...
Frances grew up in the country (I think) and could have purchased an apartment and visited London whenever she wanted.
The problem was, IMO, that she had a difficult marriage. She married at 18, and became a mother shortly thereafter. She was under pressure to "produce" a male heir, and lost a son. And this was in her twenties.
Quote from: sandy on September 16, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
One of the posts above claimed this.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:40:17 PM
Frances grew up in the country (I think) and could have purchased an apartment and visited London whenever she wanted.
The problem was, IMO, that she had a difficult marriage. She married at 18, and became a mother shortly thereafter. She was under pressure to "produce" a male heir, and lost a son. And this was in her twenties.
True there was pressure but the wives of titled men were there to provide male heirs.. as otherwise the titles would die out.
She didn't want an apartment in London, she wanted to get away from Johnny and the country.. and to be with her lover..
Double post auto-merged: September 16, 2019, 07:48:54 PM
Quote from: sandy on September 16, 2019, 07:30:02 PM
One of the posts above claimed this.
Did they?
Yes. But I maintain she was not bored, she did not feel well.
She got the apartment in London after she had the Male Heir. The marriage was falling apart even after she had the living male heir. John put a little too much pressure on Frances. He was the one who determines the sex of the baby so the pressure was on him to give the Y chromosome.
Quote from: sandy on September 16, 2019, 08:01:02 PM
Yes. But I maintain she was not bored, she did not feel well.
She got the apartment in London after she had the Male Heir. The marriage was falling apart even after she had the living male heir. John put a little too much pressure on Frances. He was the one who determines the sex of the baby so the pressure was on him to give the Y chromosome.
the marriage was not a great one. There was a big age gap. Frances hated being a squire's wife and wanted to get to London and have some fun. She fell for Peter Shand Kydd and wanted to be with him..
Quote from: amabel on September 16, 2019, 07:48:35 PM
True there was pressure but the wives of titled men were there to provide male heirs.. as otherwise the titles would die out.
She didn't want an apartment in London, she wanted to get away from Johnny and the country.. and to be with her lover..
We don't know what would have happened had her ex-husband been more reasonable and agreeable, IMO. She probably would have stayed with earl Spencer and visited the city whenever she liked. It was foolish of her to have an affair with a married man.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 17, 2019, 06:08:46 AM
We don't know what would have happened had her ex-husband been more reasonable and agreeable, IMO. She probably would have stayed with earl Spencer and visited the city whenever she liked. It was foolish of her to have an affair with a married man.
her hsuband was I think willing to turn a blind eye to an affair. But Frances wasn't willig to go on wiht the marriage. She wanted to leave him and live with her new man. She didn't want a life as the squire's wife.. She wanted to be with her new husband,.
I think that in some ways it was a difficult marriage and Frances felt the effect of it IMO. It can't be easy to have gone through what she Went through. I'm just curious as to why she waited to file for divorce until she found someone new.
She was about 18 when she met Spencer who was serious about another woman. Frances and John met and it was love at first sight. Frances' mother Lady Fermoy had ambitions and encouraged the match.
The marriage could have lasted, if there was not so much pressure on Frances, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 17, 2019, 06:28:34 PM
I think that in some ways it was a difficult marriage and Frances felt the effect of it IMO. It can't be easy to have gone through what she Went through. I'm just curious as to why she waited to file for divorce until she found someone new.
I think the key to that is 'married when she was 18'. Frances was a deb before her engagement, no experience of the workforce in any way (even floating around some art gallery or office) and under the thumb of a socially ambitious Mama.
I do think that Frances and Johnny were in love when they married and up until the birth of baby John that the marriage was stable. IMO it was after the trauma of that tragedy that Frances started to feel a bit unhappy in her marriage. I think another two children later and still pretty and in her twenties that feeling increased. She began to feel trapped and isolated in the country.
However, it's a big frightening world out there without a husband and with disapproval from others for leaving your husband for no particular reason other than you are no longer IN love with him as you once were. Especially if you have never lived alone without another adult presence around.
And don't let's forget that there was no No Fault divorce around in those days in Britain. That is quite important in this case as the grounds for divorce were few and Johnny wasn't a drunk, or insane or unfaithful.
The couple did still have quite a good social life. They met the Shand Kydds, hit it off with them, Peter was a good looking charmer, and the rest is history. If they hadn't met, who knows. Frances might have settled for what she had, remained in Norfolk and become Countess Spencer of Althorp in the fullness of time.
That's my take on it anyway!
A brief history of divorce | Life and style | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/19/divorce-law-history)
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 17, 2019, 06:39:12 PM
The marriage could have lasted, if there was not so much pressure on Frances, IMO.
I don't think so, but it was her choice to leave Johnny Spencer
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:23:17 AM
Quote from: Curryong on September 17, 2019, 11:48:51 PM
I think the key to that is 'married when she was 18'. Frances was a deb before her engagement, no experience of the workforce in any way (even floating around some art gallery or office) and under the thumb of a socially ambitious Mama.
I do think that Frances and Johnny were in love when they married and up until the birth of baby John that the marriage was stable. IMO it was after the trauma of that tragedy that Frances started to feel a bit unhappy in her marriage. I think another two children later and still pretty and in her twenties that feeling increased. She began to feel trapped and isolated in the country.
However, it's a big frightening world out there without a husband and with disapproval from others for leaving your husband for no particular reason other than you are no longer IN love with him as you once were. Especially if you have never lived alone without another adult presence around.
And don't let's forget that there was no No Fault divorce around in those days in Britain. That is quite important in this case as the grounds for divorce were few and Johnny wasn't a drunk, or insane or unfaithful.
The couple did still have quite a good social life. They met the Shand Kydds, hit it off with them, Peter was a good looking charmer, and the rest is history. If they hadn't met, who knows. Frances might have settled for what she had, remained in Norfolk and become Countess Spencer of Althorp in the fullness of time.
That's my take on it anyway!
A brief history of divorce | Life and style | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/19/divorce-law-history)
I think that she wanted more than a dull probably difficult husband and th life of a country squire's wife. Even if they did have plenty of money and they did have a reasonable social life, johnny was happy living as a country squire, with his farms and his tenants and sports.. and Frances wanted more sophisitciated amusements. She did have pressure with having children but then that was part of having a title, the requirement to produce an heir..
And I think she did not want a job or an "independent life " as such.. just more freedom and a more congenial partner.
It was John SPencer's responsibility to provide the Y chromosome if he wanted a son. His wife did not determine the sex of the children.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 10:26:37 AM
It was John SPencer's responsibility to provide the Y chromosome if he wanted a son. His wife did not determine the sex of the children.
Yes we know this. It was nto the reason for the failure of his marriage though...
Frances was worn down by all of this by the time the healthy son was born
Yes we may all know it but John apparently didn't blaming his wife
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 10:29:00 AM
Frances was worn down by all of this by the time the healthy son was born
Yes we may all know it but John apparently didn't blaming his wife
He was very upset by the lack of a son, as most men in his positon with a title would be..
and when Frances had a son, Johnny was as far as I can see an indulgent enough husband who didn't mind her having a bit more time in London..but he didn't want to go there himself much. He was blindsided by her suddenly takig off with another man
Well he would have had to live with having only daughters. Some other aristos did not have daughters and a cousin got the title.
I don't think John changed after he had the boy. Relations were said to be strained between them while they were "trying" for a son and there was no going back.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 12:59:37 PM
Well he would have had to live with having only daughters. Some other aristos did not have daughters and a cousin got the title.
I don't think John changed after he had the boy. Relations were said to be strained between them while they were "trying" for a son and there was no going back.
It would not matter if they had daughters since vrery few titles are inheritable by a woman. Don't know what you mean. And generally people would prefer their estates and titles to go to their own heirs. Frances SK must have known that in marrying an earl, it would be important for him to have a male heir.
I think it is clear that cousins or other relatives inherit if an aristo just has daughters, it goes to the next male in line. That is what I mean.
So people just have to learn to live with having daughters. It is better to have wonderful female children IMO than inherit a title. There should be some priorities here.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 02:40:43 PM
I think it is clear that cousins or other relatives inherit if an aristo just has daughters, it goes to the next male in line. That is what I mean.
So people just have to learn to live with having daughters. It is better to have wonderful female children IMO than inherit a title. There should be some priorities here.
The priorty is to keept the estate in good shape and hand it on to the next generation...
So if a man does not have sons he's a failure. I think not.
I recall a Duke of Norfolk had no sons so it went to another relative.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:01:25 PM
So if a man does not have sons he's a failure. I think not.
I recall a Duke of Norfolk had no sons so it went to another relative.
Yes of course it happens. But it is a titled mans primary responsibility to hold onto and improve his estate and provide an heir for it.
So if he does not have the heir, it's out of his hands and perhaps his daughters can be wed to other aristos with estates.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:06:49 PM
So if he does not have the heir, it's out of his hands and perhaps his daughters can be wed to other aristos with estates.
what good is that??
I see no problem with it.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:10:03 PM
I see no problem with it.
It has nothing to do with producing an heir.. What good it is to a peer if he has daughters who marry aristocrats with estates? Their children cannot be heirs....
No they can't with the way the inheritance laws are currently written with rare exceptions. So marrying off a daughter to ensure the survival of the estate is not a good idea IMHO.
If the woman falls in love with another aristo with a title and they decide to marry that's fine. But I am not talking arranged marriages here.
Quote from: amabel on September 18, 2019, 07:20:12 AM
I don't think so, but it was her choice to leave Johnny Spencer
It was her choice but she was under difficult circumstances. She was young when she married and had lots of pressure. I don't think that earl Spencer was fair in his treatment towards her. IMO.
Still she should not have engaged in an affair, and could have just gone for a separation for a while.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:35:39 PM
If the woman falls in love with another aristo with a title and they decide to marry that's fine. But I am not talking arranged marriages here.
what does "that's fine" mean? It is of no use to a peer without a male heir.. if his daughter marries someone with a title..
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:12:41 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 18, 2019, 07:01:14 PM
It was her choice but she was under difficult circumstances. She was young when she married and had lots of pressure. I don't think that earl Spencer was fair in his treatment towards her. IMO.
Still she should not have engaged in an affair, and could have just gone for a separation for a while.
She didn't want a separation. She was fed up with JOhnny and wanted out of the marriage. And she fell in love with Peter Shand Kydd and wanted to be with him..
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:13:14 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 18, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
No they can't with the way the inheritance laws are currently written with rare exceptions. So marrying off a daughter to ensure the survival of the estate is not a good idea IMHO.
It would not do anything for the estate at all!!
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:32:41 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 18, 2019, 03:26:44 PM
No they can't with the way the inheritance laws are currently written with rare exceptions. So marrying off a daughter to ensure the survival of the estate is not a good idea IMHO.
TLLK I was just thinking that Julian Fellows managed to figure out a way past thtat little problem in Downton, where Mary was marrying the Heir presumptive to the title...
This was all hypothetical what I said.
Quote from: sandy on September 17, 2019, 06:31:51 PM
She was about 18 when she met Spencer who was serious about another woman. Frances and John met and it was love at first sight. Frances' mother Lady Fermoy had ambitions and encouraged the match.
Who was the other lady John Spencer was serious about?
Raine.
John had been seeing Lady Anne Coke, the daughter of the Duke of Leicester, for some time. Friends expected she and Johnny to become engaged, but he met Frances, who was then seventeen and that was that. There's some evidence that Ruth steered her daughter in his direction. Her other daughter Mary had married an aristocrat. Frances had first seen Johnny when she was 14 and he had visited her school.
Quote from: TLLK on September 19, 2019, 12:24:13 AM
Raine.
no that was after his divorce from Frances SK. He was seeing Lady Anne Coke as Curryog says. Johnny was really blindsided by Frances' leaving him. I think he did not realise that the marriage had failed and was over.. He wasn't a very bright guy and not good with feelings...
Double post auto-merged: September 19, 2019, 06:34:21 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 07:53:59 PM
This was all hypothetical what I said.
I don't really understand it. Anyone with a peerage and estate needed a male heir.. otherwise the estate (usualy) and titles certainly would pass to a more distant relative and was usually considered something of a disaster for the peer...
Daughters were not able to provide heirs.. so a duaghter marrying into another titled family would not solve the problem
What is not to understand? A young aristo marrying into another aristo family, they grow up in the same circles. That's all I am going to say about this. I made my point.
QuoteI don't really understand it. Anyone with a peerage and estate needed a male heir.. otherwise the estate (usualy) and titles certainly would pass to a more distant relative and was usually considered something of a disaster for the peer...
Daughters were not able to provide heirs.. so a duaghter marrying into another titled family would not solve the problem
Agreed. While it was not uncommon for the daughters of the aristocracy to marry in their circle, it wouldn't help their family if there was not a living male heir. This was pretty much Downton Abbey's storyline for the first season. :happy:
Quote from: sandy on September 19, 2019, 01:47:26 PM
What is not to understand? A young aristo marrying into another aristo family, they grow up in the same circles. That's all I am going to say about this. I made my point.
I can't understand what your point is.
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Quote from: TLLK on September 19, 2019, 01:50:20 PM
Agreed. While it was not uncommon for the daughters of the aristocracy to marry in their circle, it wouldn't help their family if there was not a living male heir. This was pretty much Downton Abbey's storyline for the first season. :happy:
Fellowes did manage to work out a solution for the Crawleys.. but I doubt if it happened in real life...
Slightly off topic (perhaps more than slighty!) but who do you guys think was the love of Spencers life? Frances or Raine?
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 20, 2019, 06:10:03 PM
Slightly off topic (perhaps more than slighty!) but who do you guys think was the love of Spencers life? Frances or Raine?
No idea. I think he fell deeply in love with Raine and depended on her very much.. and Frances walked out on him, surprised him by doing so... so whatever feelings he had for her, were probably crushed by her wlaking out
Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 06:21:37 PM
No idea. I think he fell deeply in love with Raine and depended on her very much.. and Frances walked out on him, surprised him by doing so... so whatever feelings he had for her, were probably crushed by her wlaking out
I don't know about that. He was willing to forgive Frances and overlook it. It wasn't until after she wanted a divorce that he became angry IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 20, 2019, 06:26:49 PM
I don't know about that. He was willing to forgive Frances and overlook it. It wasn't until after she wanted a divorce that he became angry IMO.
well when she walked out she wanted a divorce, didn't she? He was not a smart guy and I don't think he realised that she was so bored and fed up with him and that she had fallen so madly in love with Peter SK... when it did hit him and he understood she was gone, I think he was indeed angry.. and in due course he fell for Raine
That's right amabel. Except that at the time Frances walked out you couldn't just stamp your foot and get a divorce just because you wanted one.
As I pointed out in a previous post no fault divorce did not come in Britain until the end of the 1960s. Unless the spouse cooperated in the collaborative frauds that were often used to gain divorces in those days (detective/ hotel chamber maid finds a husband in bedroom with a hired stranger) the party wanting a divorce was often stymied. Johnny was in no mood to cooperate and was not a drunkard, insane or unfaithful or cruel, nor had he deserted her, the reasons for a divorce petition being allowed to be heard in those days.
And in fact Frances ran a severe risk of being named as the guilty party in Peter's divorce, by his wife. Which is precisely what happened. Guilty parties in divorce actions were not favoured by courts in those days and it's my belief that played as large a role in Frances not being awarded custody of her children as Ruth's testimony on Johnny's behalf. Frances tried to fight back with allegations of cruelty but it was her behaviour that ultimately caused the court to rule in Johnny's favour in the custody battle that separated the children from their mother.
well yes I've always been dubious about Frances' counter peitition of Cruelty on JOhnny's part. I think he was a bully and a foot stamper...but he was not violent..
I think he did not realise how much Frances had gone off him and was bewildered when she left, takng the children.. and wanting a divorce to be with Peter full time. I think Johnny would have overlooked a fling but to find that his wife no longer loved him, was leaving him for another man and trying to take his children... really hurt him and he got angry and uncooperative...
ANd he became something of a recluse for a few years after the divorce.. I think he did fall deeply for Raine.. and while she is not my favourite person, she was devoted ot him in her way...
it was very wrong of frances wanting take the the kids away to scotland just because she wanted to be with peter. the fact she was leaving because another man who also happened to be married definitely was a very important factor in custody issues. along with moving to scotland. she caused her own problems during the divorce, putting a man above her kids needs
I think she should have had more access to her children no matter what the ruling. I think she was remote with Diana because she had not had the access to her that she should have had. She had a hands off attitude towards her in the run up to the wedding.
I did read that Ruth Fermoy did not want the children to lose the proximity to the royal family who were nearby at Sandringham. Diana had gotten invited to Andrew's and Edward's birthday parties. I do think Fermoy had ambitions for her granddaughters to marry into the royal family.
Another of the great blanks left in Diana bios as far as I'm concerned is the relationship Diana had with her maternal relatives.
Frances had two siblings, the much married Mary, who had children, Diana's cousins, and a brother, Edmund, Baron Fermoy, who suicided in 1984, shortly before Harry was born. Diana was portrayed as sobbing quietly at his funeral, and of course he came out with the embarrassing thing about her never having had lovers before her marriage. Edmund also had a family as well.
But, apart from Mary's reported remark at around the time of the Wales divorce that she thought that the age gap had played a huge part in the marriage not working, we know nothing of these siblings' views on Charles, on Diana as a person before and after wedlock, or anything else. Did Diana encourage her sons to see their aunt and their much older second cousins on the maternal side when she was alive? Did she herself keep in contact? We don't know that either, though I wouldn't be surprised if she did see Edmund's family, at least.
Quote from: sandy on September 20, 2019, 11:32:53 PM
I think she should have had more access to her children no matter what the ruling. I think she was remote with Diana because she had not had the access to her that she should have had. She had a hands off attitude towards her in the run up to the wedding.
I did read that Ruth Fermoy did not want the children to lose the proximity to the royal family who were nearby at Sandringham. Diana had gotten invited to Andrew's and Edward's birthday parties. I do think Fermoy had ambitions for her granddaughters to marry into the royal family.
She had perfectly normal accsess to her children.. Johnny got custody but she saw the children regularly...they spent weekends with her in London.. It was later on when she moved to Scotland that it wasn't so easy probably to visit. even then she had normal access. DIana saw her regularly and loved her but she could not forgive her for walking out - that's moderately obvious
Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 07:47:27 AM
Quote from: Curryong on September 21, 2019, 01:48:18 AM
Another of the great blanks left in Diana bios as far as I'm concerned is the relationship Diana had with her maternal relatives.
Frances had two siblings, the much married Mary, who had children, Diana's cousins, and a brother, Edmund, Baron Fermoy, who suicided in 1984, shortly before Harry was born. Diana was portrayed as sobbing quietly at his funeral, and of course he came out with the embarrassing thing about her never having had lovers before her marriage. Edmund also had a family as well.
But, apart from Mary's reported remark at around the time of the Wales divorce that she thought that the age gap had played a huge part in the marriage not working, we know nothing of these siblings' views on Charles, on Diana as a person before and after wedlock, or anything else. Did Diana encourage her sons to see their aunt and their much older second cousins on the maternal side when she was alive? Did she herself keep in contact? We don't know that either, though I wouldn't be surprised if she did see Edmund's family, at least.
Possibly she wasn't that close to them as an adult.. She had increasing tension with her mother as she grew older.. what with Frances' on and off behaviour, her drinking, their rows about men and so on. So possibly Diana just wasn't that close to her aunt and uncle on that side.. and if the cousins were a lot older than Will and Harry, they weren't close either.
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Quote from: dianab on September 20, 2019, 08:26:40 PM
it was very wrong of frances wanting take the the kids away to scotland just because she wanted to be with peter. the fact she was leaving because another man who also happened to be married definitely was a very important factor in custody issues. along with moving to scotland. she caused her own problems during the divorce, putting a man above her kids needs
She didn't move to Scotland, she moved to London
Yes, after the separation and during the divorce proceedings Frances, who was of course, independently wealthy, lived in London. In April 1969 she and Johnny's final divorce decree came into effect. She married Peter Shand Kydd a month later and shortly afterwards the couple bought a house on the West Sussex coast. The children of both their marriages visited them regularly during that time. In 1972 the Shand Kydds moved to a hill farm on the remote island of Seil off the west coast of Scotland. Disna was eleven. Regular weekly access visits ceased for the Spencer children from that time on, though they spent some of their school holidays there.
Quote from: Curryong on September 21, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
Yes, after the separation and during the divorce proceedings Frances, who was of course, independently wealthy, lived in London. In April 1969 she and Johnny's final divorce decree came into effect. She married Peter Shand Kydd a month later and shortly afterwards the couple bought a house on the West Sussex coast. The children of both their marriages visited them regularly during that time. In 1972 the Shand Kydds moved to a hill farm on the remote island of Seil off the west coast of Scotland. Disna was eleven. Regular weekly access visits ceased for the Spencer children from that time on, though they spent some of their school holidays there.
Of course Diana and the other kids visited htem regularly... She had the normal access for a non custodial parent.. and she later chose to move to Scotland where it wan't so easy for the kids to visit every week. However, as I understand it Diana saw her mother and was fond of her stepfather. If Frances later developed a "hands off" attitude, that was her own choice. I think as she grew older, from having wanted the "flat in London" and more of a social life, she became quieter and more content with a country life ironically.. but she chose the Austrailian and Scottish countryside. And then by which time her children were growing up, she seems to have been more "hands off" with them. I don't know about Sarah and Jane but she does not seem to have made any great effort to get Diana trained for the "society hostess" life that she probably envisaged for her. Diana was allowed to daydream at school, then she was allowed to drop out of the finishing school and I think training for cookery that she tried. Frnaces does not seem to have had any idea what to do with Diana.. She clearly wasn't going to have a career, but she needed some minimal educaton even to be a socialite and to secure a husband.. and Frances didn't seem to push or "manage" her daughter towards training for this kind of life... Then when DIana did gt married, Frances seems to have largely left her to her own devices even when there were at the very least adjustment problems in her marriag...
Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 11:01:16 AM
@Curryong What do you think about Frances and Diana? Was Fran more attentive to the older daughters.. perhaps she was less enthusastic by the time Diana was old enough to leave shcool and plan her life? OR was Diana who was rather shy just not interested in "being a deb" so she did not want a Season and just quietly took on a life of little jobs with no further training and resisted any plans her parents had to get hr to do anything particular? Or did she concentrate more on her son?
I don't know. It seems to me that they let the 16 or 17 year old Diana just float along. Even if she wasn't academic, I think F should have pushed her to stick out Finishing school or some knd of training...
She was in London when the children were growing up. Frances did have an idea about Diana she told her authorized biographer that when Diana was engaged she did not voice any concerns just said it was time for Diana to get married.
Diana's sisters were entirely different. Jane met Fellowes early on and she knew she wanted to marry him. It took a while for Sarah to get settled, she was rejected by the Duke of Westminster and developed the eating disorder anorexia. She dated Charles or a while but she said she did not love him. How her mother dealt with this has never been recorded or mentioned by Sarah.
Quote from: sandy on September 20, 2019, 11:32:53 PM
I think she should have had more access to her children no matter what the ruling. I think she was remote with Diana because she had not had the access to her that she should have had. She had a hands off attitude towards her in the run up to the wedding.
I did read that Ruth Fermoy did not want the children to lose the proximity to the royal family who were nearby at Sandringham. Diana had gotten invited to Andrew's and Edward's birthday parties. I do think Fermoy had ambitions for her granddaughters to marry into the royal family.
diana and her brother were sent to boarding schools. frances and johnnie shared weekends and holidays. it was choice of fraces to move to scotland and to complicate custody issues. later she also chose to move to australia
Diana also went to "finishing school" and then wanted to live in London and have a flat of her own (and flatmates). Frances' second husband did not turn out to be Prince CHarming exactly so Frances after the divorce lived in Scotland until the rest of her days, rather isolated.
It looked like karma getting back at her. Quite few times she put this man above of her kids.
Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 07:34:15 AM
She didn't move to Scotland, she moved to London
i read years ago the fact frances intended take the kids to scotland helped johnnie get their custody.
Quote from: dianab on September 21, 2019, 12:31:41 PM
It looked like karma getting back at her. Quite few times she put this man above of her kids.
i read years ago the fact frances intended take the kids to scotland helped johnnie get their custody.
no that is not correct. Frances moved to London with Charles and Diana.. She lost custody because she wwas a deserting unfaithful wife.. She did not go to Scotalnd until some time after her remarriage...
Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 01:09:20 PM
Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 12:10:42 PM
She was in London when the children were growing up. Frances did have an idea about Diana she told her authorized biographer that when Diana was engaged she did not voice any concerns just said it was time for Diana to get married.
Dian
If she thought it was time for Diana to get married, why not ensure that Diana had some basic training to be able to deal with a very public marriage.. with the press Looking over her all the time? She never seems to have pushed Diana to stick at anything...
I agree with you in that I think that both Johnny and Frances were at a loss about what to do with Diana after failing her O Levels and having to leave school at 16. After the advent of Raine Frances and Diana became very close according to Bedell Smith.
Jane had graduated with distinction from West Heath School. I think that she was the brightest of the three Spencer girls. She had a deb party and a bit of a Season, studied art for six months in Italy and completed a secretarial course before getting a job at Vogue magazine. Sarah had been a deb, went to finishing schools in Switzerland and Austria, topped a course in speedwriting before joining Vogue as an assistant.
I think both parents (who weren't communicating directly with each other) had hoped that Diana would try something like her sisters. However no O Levels meant no prestigious jobs at smart magazines. Diana was sent off to at least learn French at a Swiss finishing school but she felt alone and homesick, few English girls, and pressed her parents to let her come back to England as she was miserable.
I just get the feeling that both Johnny and Frances took the route of least resistance with Diana in the hope that somehow she she would find her niche. (Perhaps a bit of guilt about the effect of the divorce as well.) So they let her come home after six weeks after she wrote every day describing how she hated it all. I suppose they could have insisted she stay but Diana could be very stubborn and would probably have decided she wasn't going to learn French or anything else there.
She wasn't interested in art and becoming a debutante was seen as unfashionable. A job was got for Diana as a nanny for friends in the country after she had helped with Jane's wedding. Diana said she wanted to live in London but both parents told her she couldn't until she was eighteen. Again, after three months Diana got her own way and went to live at her mother's house with two friends. Frances though, wasn't anywhere to be seen. She was in Scotland. Diana was an ultra cautious girl but I don't know that I'd want a seventeen year old daughter living in London away from me.
What I think is significant is that although Diana was certainly not indolent she knew that at eighteen there was a legacy from her mother's ancestors the American Wokes. So really there was no need to push yourself into a career.
To be fair, though she didn't come down to London to have a serious talk with her daughter as far as we know, (nor did Johnny) Frances did try various things. She prodded Diana into taking a three month cooking course. Diana did graduate from that but it didn't lead to anything very much. Then again, she signed on for a three year training course to teach ballet, at Frances's suggestion. However, the experience at the Betty Vacani Studio made her feel under pressure from parents though she loved the kids. So she left after three months.
I think that possibly Frances, who was in her own way very ambitious and determined and had been very good academically was just taken aback by the pattern of quitting by Diana whenever she felt overwhelmed. I mean, we can analyse it now as perhaps lasting damage from her parents' divorce, lack of self confidence in her own abilities, perhaps a bit of a learning disability at school. Whether Frances or Johnny joined the dots though, is another matter.
Frances doesn't seem to have pressed any more courses on her and Diana as we know embarked on the temporary jobs of helping out at parties, cleaning houses, providing party food. Perhaps her parents still felt she would find her feet but of course, in the background was that legacy she got at eighteen.
None of the Spencer girls had actually HAD to work as the rest of us have had to. And Disna herself found the job at the Young England nursery, and as a nanny to an American family. She was quite content there and at the flat with her friends, so perhaps her parents thought that was enough, and 'in two or three years she'll find someone nice and she will marry, like Jane and Sarah'. That's the only explanation as to why she wasn't pushed by her parents more determinedly, IMO.
As for Frances teaching her the social skills of being a good hostess, chatelaine of a country house etc, both Jane and Sarah (and Frances herself to a large extent) had got that from lessons at finishing school. Diana was sent to finishing school but didn't stay for one term.
but that is just it, Curryong. None of the girls had to work.. but the older 2 did well at school and even if they weren't into going to Uni, they got office jobs and dabbled in "Society"..
Diana tended to drop out of everything that she found difficult.. and her parents (JOhnny was alos at fault but Im just thinking here of Frances) didn't push or insist at all.. They could have put their foot down over something..like going back to school for a year and trying the O levels again.. or sticking out the Finishing school..adn they didn't. And Frances does not seem to have even tried to get Diana to learn "society stuff" of the kind that she would ideally need if she wanted to "make a good marriage" in the old fashioned way...
Was Frances just not able to stand out against her youngest daughter? Or was she tired out with having dealt with 2 older girls one of whom had a lot of problems.. (Sarah) and didn't have any energy left to deal with the youngest?
Diana did not "drop out" of her part time jobs even right before the engagement announcement. She told her employers she was leaving then. She got highly praised by the American couple whose child Diana looked after.
Diana was very young when she got engaged to Charles the options for going back to school no longer existed. She also learned on the job as a royal.
I think Ruth Fermoy was the one pushing for Great Marriages for her granddaughters.
DIana's parents should have sent her for one on one tutoring with a teacher. And DIana could get full attention of this tutor. Diana said she knew the material but when the exam paper was put in front of her she'd Freeze Up and not be able to do anything. This seems to be something that could have been addressed by sending Diana to a counselor/teacher who could help address that issue.
'Society stuff' was taught at finishing school, ie ballroom dancing, languages, how to hold dinner parties, make smalltalk. If we go back to the 1930s, or even 1950s mothers imparted some of that sort of knowledge, but not in the 1970s. The Season had become unfashionable. Girls weren't presented any more at BP. And I don't think that making Diana do her O Levels again after she had failed them twice would have done any good.
We don't know enough about Frances and Diana's mother/daughter relations to say how Frances reacted to Diana's lack of ambition and tendency to fold when the pressure got too much. They don't seem to have had blazing rows about it. And Frances herself may have used alcohol and not eating sometimes as a way of coping with pressure.
Johnny, in an interview given shortly after his daughter's marriage just intimated vaguely that he had always thought she would do 'something with children. Something to do with Childcare.' Diana's parents knew she wasn't academically inclined, so maybe subconsciously they set the bar low. She was sweet natured however, sensible and they probably shrugged their shoulders and thought that she would probably marry early, anyway.
In the US, there are "Summer school" programs where those who did not do well would have more attention and a chance to retake the tests. Diana's problem of "freezing up" should have been addressed.
The "selling point" in the media for Lady DIana was that she enjoyed working with young children. So she would be a good mother to royal children.
Quote from: Curryong on September 21, 2019, 03:03:16 PM
'Society stuff' was taught at finishing school, ie ballroom dancing, languages, how to hold dinner parties, make smalltalk. If we go back to the 1930s, or even 1950s mothers imparted some of that sort of knowledge, but not in the 1970s. The Season had become unfashionable. Girls weren't presented any more at BP. And I don't think that making Diana do her O Levels again after she had failed them twice would have done any good.
We don't know enough about Frances and Diana's mother/daughter relations to say how Frances reacted to Diana's lack of ambition and tendency to fold when the pressure got too much. They don't seem to have had blazing rows about it. And Frances herself may have used alcohol and not eating sometimes as a way of coping with pressure.
John
But "society stuff" even if there were no Seasons really anymore, was still surely useful in finding a husband and managing married life in the upper classes.. How to host dinner parties, languages, a bit of "witty conversation".. running a big house and possibly being hostess to your husband's friends because he had some high powered job. So getting Diana to stay at Finishing school might have taught her something that would be useful to her in the future.
And since she was very young, I don't think it would have done her any harm to go back to school and repeat a year and maybe come up with some academic qualification..
Diana could still have taken up work with children, if she wanted to.. but she might have been say a year older and had SOME kind of qualification behind her. I get the feeling that Frances just didn't try very hard with her third daughter. Wwhether she did wit the older girls, or not, I don't know...
Diana was said to have had some duties involving the running of the Estate.
I did not read anywhere that Frances was around to help Sarah with her problems with anorexia.
Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 03:26:59 PM
Diana was said to have had some duties involving the running of the Estate.
I did not read anywhere that Frances was around to help Sarah with her problems with anorexia.
What estate??? Althorp? Harldy likely is it when she lived in London soon after she left school and Raine was in charge at the Big House. And I've no idea about Frances and Sarah, as I've said. But I think its pretty clear she did not exert herself all that much about Diana
she did spend time at ALthorp when she was growing up. She was not in boarding school all year. This is what I read and she did experience living in an Estate which certainly surpassed the homes her flatmates grew up in. she was said to have helped out at the Estate. this is what I read.
Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 03:33:02 PM
she did spend time at ALthorp when she was growing up. She was not in boarding school all year. This is what I read and she did experience living in an Estate which certainly surpassed the homes her flatmates grew up in. she was said to have helped out at the Estate. this is what I read.
But what did she do exactly? I cant' see Diana in her wellies managing the pig farm like Lady Mary!! and I don't think she learned "running a big house".. Besides with Raine in charge, she and the other girls did not like Althorp and I doubt if Raine wanted Diana helping her to plan menus..
This is what I read.
Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 02:51:24 PM
DIana's parents should have sent her for one on one tutoring with a teacher. And DIana could get full attention of this tutor. Diana said she knew the material but when the exam paper was put in front of her she'd Freeze Up and not be able to do anything. This seems to be something that could have been addressed by sending Diana to a counselor/teacher who could help address that issue.
Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.
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Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 06:33:31 PM
well when she walked out she wanted a divorce, didn't she? He was not a smart guy and I don't think he realised that she was so bored and fed up with him and that she had fallen so madly in love with Peter SK... when it did hit him and he understood she was gone, I think he was indeed angry.. and in due course he fell for Raine
I think earl Spencer was an intelligent man. He must have realized his mistakes if he was willing to overlook her affair.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 04:22:09 PM
Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.
She was at a good school in the sense that it was a private school, not somewhere with large numbers of pupils.. and her sisters went there too. They each got a decent number fo O levels or A levels
Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 04:29:44 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 04:22:09 PM
Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.
Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 04:23:42 PM
I think earl Spencer was an intelligent man. He must have realized his mistakes if he was willing to overlook her affair.
Diana's father?? HE was NOT an intelligent man. A nice man, kind and a good squire, but very far from smart... He didn't realise his mistakes other than to realise that Frances had fallen out of love with him...and evnetaully he moved on
Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 04:24:00 PM
She was at a good school in the sense that it was a private school, not somewhere with large numbers of pupils.. and her sisters went there too. They each got a decent number fo O levels or A levels
Diana's father?? HE was NOT an intelligent man. A nice man, kind and a good squire, but very far from smart... He didn't realise his mistakes other than to realise that Frances had fallen out of love with him...and evnetaully he moved on
Those conditions does not negate her being of good intelligence, IMO. Jane and Sarah getting better grades points to them not having the "issues" Diana had, and for which she could have gotten help.
He was intelligent, and good at presenting a good "facade" IMO. He was no Einstein but was still smart, in my opinion.
Him willing to overlook her infidelity and then contesting her custody claims shows that he was not "over" her, to me anyways.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 08:21:30 PM
Those conditions does not negate her being of good intelligence, IMO. Jane and Sarah getting better grades points to them not having the "issues" Diana had, and for which she could have gotten help.
He was intelligent, and good at presenting a good "facade" IMO. He was no Einstein but was still smart, in my opinion.
Him willing to overlook her infidelity and then contesting her custody claims shows that he was not "over" her, to me anyways.
I don't think anyone would agree about Johnny Spencer. He was generally held to be a kind and decent man.. mostly but far from clever. I dotn quite see what you mean by the last sentence. Of course he wasn't "over her" at the time of the divorce. It took him some time to realise that she seriously wanted out of the marriage and he was upset and angry.. so he made himself difficult - trying hard to get custody of the children and succeeding, though he msut have known it would hurt his wife. He was depressed for some time but did get over her and was I think happy with Raine in his later years...
I think Frances resented being sent to doctors to see why she could not produce the boy. I think she resented being seen as a "baby producer" and not a wife. She also was upset at not being allowed to see Baby John before he died.I think all the resentments just built up.
Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 08:40:01 PM
I don't think anyone would agree about Johnny Spencer. He was generally held to be a kind and decent man.. mostly but far from clever. I dotn quite see what you mean by the last sentence. Of course he wasn't "over her" at the time of the divorce. It took him some time to realise that she seriously wanted out of the marriage and he was upset and angry.. so he made himself difficult - trying hard to get custody of the children and succeeding, though he msut have known it would hurt his wife. He was depressed for some time but did get over her and was I think happy with Raine in his later years...
I don't think he was over Frances by the time of the divorce and for some time after IMO.
I'm not saying that he was this misunderstood genius or anything but I don't think that he was stupid. He was probably a kind and decent man as you say, but I also think he was smart and knew how to keep up a facade. IMO.
He knew how to hit Frances where it hurts, i.e. with the custody battle. No amiable idiot would've thought of that. So I think he was clever with a few tricks up his sleeve. But this is just my take on it.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 22, 2019, 02:53:35 AM
I don't think he was over Frances by the time of the divorce and for some time after IMO.
I'm not saying that he was this misunderstood genius or anything but I don't think that he was stupid. He was probably a kind and decent man as you say, but I also think he was smart and knew how to keep up a facade. IMO.
He knew how to hit Frances where it hurts, i.e. with the custody battle. No amiable idiot would've thought of that. So I think he was clever with a few tricks up his sleeve. But this is just my take on it.
well if he was only "clever" in the sense of "knowing how to hurt her".. I don't think much of it... It is harldy intelligence to lash out at someone. I don't know of anyone ever sayng that he was more than a not very smart but basically good hearted man, who liked the country life and was a good farmer.. and had enough sense to know how to manage his estate well..
Of course he was not over her by the time of the divorce Why would he be? Very few people are.
Frances's mother Lady Fermoy is generally held to have pushed him a bit towards looking for custody, because she wanted her grandchildren to remain at Althrop? so she was probably the one who drove him and stiffened his resolve to keep his children. But realy it was hardly that unusual for a man whose wife had left him, to want to retain custody of his children. Deserting and unfaithful wives had usually lost custody of their children and though things were a little more liberal by the 1960s, it had not changed all that much. Frances had been named as a deserting and unfaithful wife..so it didn't need much for Johnny to be able to keep them.
As Curryong has pointed out, it wasn't that easy to get a divorce then.. though the grouds were a bit wider than they had been earlier in the century. Some husbands cooperated with their wives by "committing adultery" so as to give the wife a way out.. but Johnny was hurt and angry and had not been unfaithful.. and he wasn't drunk or a realy bad husband. So Frances ended up being named as a wife who had been unfaithful and walked out...