Looking critically

[oak_and_cedar]

It depends. Sometimes you need a push. And the proof is in the pudding because Diana got better, and at least gained control of her bulimia. So, if Carolyn did indeed do this, then she did the right thing. IMO.

[amabel]

It depends. Sometimes you need a push. And the proof is in the pudding because Diana got better, and at least gained control of her bulimia. So, if Carolyn did indeed do this, then she did the right thing. IMO.

as I said, we don't really know.  According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful.  I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem

[sandy]

Diana liked Dr. Lipsedge. It could have been that had she not liked him she would have looked for another doctor. But she was very  happy with him as her choice of doctor.

[TLLK]

as I said, we don't really know.  According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful.  I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem

And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.

[amabel]

And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.

some reports say that James Colthurst had a role in persuading her to seek treatment...

[TLLK]

Yes I do believe that he'd met with Diana for lunch and noticed her behavior was that of a bulimic after she made repeated trips to the restroom after finishing a meal.

[oak_and_cedar]

as I said, we don't really know.  According to some reports, it was Carolyn Bartholomew.. but I would have said that if someone is forced into therapy by a threat of the "the press" beig notified.. It is not that likely to be successful.  I think that other Friends were involved as well.. that some of her friends talked to her and persuaded her.. and she had reached a point where she was willing to go into therapy and admit she ahd a problem

But it was successful. Diana got help with her bulimia. She was "pushed" in the right direction which was what she needed.

The question to me is this, why was it her friends giving her the push so to speak?

[sandy]

And this would be the only way that therapy would be successful when the patient recognizes that they have a problem and are willing to work with a mental healthcare professional. Psychiatric treatment is necessary to assist patients with a serious mental illness such as an eating disorder.

The patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium

[Curryong]

But it was successful. Diana got help with her bulimia. She was "pushed" in the right direction which was what she needed.

The question to me is this, why was it her friends giving her the push so to speak?

That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.

However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.

Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.

[TLLK]

The patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium

More importantly, Diana was ready to admit that she had a mental illness (binge eating/bulimia) and was ready to seek treatment.

When the royal family tried to have her meet with with a mental healthcare professional years before, she was rightly prescribed Valium as she displayed the symptoms of anxiety and depression that would have had the doctor prescribe as well as having Diana meet with a psychiatrist.  That would have been part of the recommended protocol for treatment. If it hadn't been prescribed then  it would have been malpractice.

Diana wasn't ready to accept the fact that she needed treatment and therefore it wasn't going to be successful. :(

[sandy]

I don't think she was "rightly prescribed" Valium.  I think it was more of a band aid.

And the royals did not even understand morning sickness which Diana had while pregnant with William.

I don't think those doctors knew what they were doing, it was a good thing Diana had to stop taking valium after she found out she was pregnant.

Diana got the wrong treatment. And no wonder she was hesitant to seek treatment after this bad experience.

Her sister should have been more concerned since her sister had an eating disorder.

[TLLK]

@sandy-You and I will just have to agree to disagree on this topic.

[amabel]

The patient must find the right doctor. Diana had tons more rapport with Lipsedge than the physicians who dispensed valium

if she would nto talk to them about her illness, there was nothing they could do but to treat some of her symptoms such as anxiety and tension.  The Standard treatment for that was valium
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 07:21:19 AM

That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.

However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.

Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.

Its possible that Sarah Spencer did not want to give a lot of information to James Whittaker who was the journalist who first investigated the idea that Diana had an eating disorder....She may have actually tried to talk to Diana and perhaps had been persistently tryng for a few montsh... but it seems pretty clear that Diana like most people with Bulimia, wasn't ready for some years to admit that there was a problem or seek help for it. 
Or its possible that she didn't say much.. She and Diana weren't that close I think as girls, and she may have  found it hard to braoch the subject.  we don't know for sure.. but I thnk she probably DID at least make some efforts to speak to her and was rebuffed.  Colthurst who was a doctor and who knew what was wrong with Di, said that  " you couldn't talk to her about it because she was so vulnerable" which suggests that any attempts to speak about it, however delicately phrased, met with anger or tears and Sarah and Jane and even Frances may have had the same problem that Di wasn't ready to talk about it.
I don't rate Frances SK very highty  - but again, in her defence she may have tried to talk to Diana about the loss of weight and found that she was rebuffed..I agree that she seemed to vanish at times in Di's life.. such as when she was a young married.. on the excuse that young married couples don't want Ma hanging around.  But again it is possible that if she HAD been trying to tlak to Di or Charles or both abut their marital problems, she might have gotten told to butt out.   However I don't think she tried all that hard as regards supporting Di in the early difficult years of marriage...
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 07:23:28 AM

More importantly, Diana was ready to admit that she had a mental illness (binge eating/bulimia) and was ready to seek treatment.

When the royal family tried to have her meet with with a mental healthcare professional years before, she was rightly prescribed Valium as she displayed the symptoms of anxiety and depression that would have had the doctor prescribe as well as having Diana meet with a psychiatrist.  That would have been part of the recommended protocol for treatment. If it hadn't been prescribed then  it would have been malpractice.

Diana wasn't ready to accept the fact that she needed treatment and therefore it wasn't going to be successful. :(

As far as I know Diana DID see a psychatirist in the first months of marriage, which suggests she was in a pretty shaky mental state because of her bulimia and trying to adjust to royal life.  And I think that Charles also had a few sessions - but she did not talk about her bulimia.. and therefore there was nothing doctors could do but prescribe tranquillisers. 

[sandy]

Doctors can diagnose.  Diana was not a 'mental patient.' SHe was subject to stress, her pregnancy with Will caused her discomfort and the royals did not "understand" morning sickness. Maybe the royals should have found doctors to tell them morning sickness does happen to some women. Then there was the Camilla issue. Doctors should not give out valium like candy. THese doctors seemed to have problems.

Valium was clearly not the answer.

[oak_and_cedar]

That's what I've always wondered. You can understand Sarah's reluctance to mention any suspicion of an eating disorder to Diana, considering their often prickly relationship, though 'We are thinking about'....doing something serious like directly approaching her on the subject, seems extremely tentative.

However, her mother really had a very detached and hands off approach to things, IMO. She presumably didn't do or say anything when Diana's marriage was floundering, apart from supposedly telling Charles off for moaning about Harry being the wrong sex at his christening, doesn't seem to have been physically around for years as a direct source of advice and comfort before or subsequently, and was hands off when an extremely skinny Diana was really struggling with bulimia.

Sorry, but several times in Diana's life story I get very judgemental about Frances's role in her daughter's life. Don't know what she was like with Diana's sisters, but I presume she was the same. Airily stating that you don't believe in interfering in a young couple's marital affairs makes a good excuse for not being there when you are needed, IMO.

If Wharfe is to be believed, Diana used to travel to her mother's in Scotland and she'd talk have long talks with her, and Frances would give advice. Supposedly she also visited the Wales' home sometimes in the 80s and got along with PC. I think that helped a bit.

Also, though i'm not sure, but didn't Frances husband leave her because he thought that she did not give him/their marriage enough attention? In other words she was preoccupied with Diana and her situation.

I think Frances is an interesting character and i'm not so sure her portrayal is entirely accurate, IMO.

If Frances did indeed take a hands off approach, I do wonder if it wasn't because of her being wary of taking on the "establishment". I think it must have been in a way traumatizing to have your spouse and mother "gang up" on you in order to prevent you from having custody. Maybe that did a number on her? Though of course this is just my speculation.

Another person who's absence is interesting is Diana's father. I've read somewhere that Diana said that he'd only come to visit for 20 minutes or so then leave. And when she came to him for advice he only gave generic answers.

In a way it seems to me that her family made no time for her, or had no time for her. Almost as if wanting her to put up and shut up when she married POW. IMO.

[amabel]

Doctors can diagnose.  Diana was not a 'mental patient.' SHe was subject to stress, her pregnancy with Will caused her discomfort and the royals did not "understand" morning sickness. Maybe the royals should have found doctors to tell them morning sickness does happen to some women. Then there was the Camilla issue. Doctors should not give out valium like candy. THese doctors seemed to have problems.

Valium was clearly not the answer.

they were not treating her morning sickness.  They were treating her bulimia and depression.  THey do not "give out Valium like candy".  It is prescribed for a period of time and then reviewed.  Since Diana did not take it for logn due to her pregnancy I dot see what the issue is. If she had been taking it for a long time, it might have been a problem but that would not happen

[TLLK]

Doctors can diagnose.  Diana was not a 'mental patient.'

@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.

[amabel]

@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.

Bulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 01:06:19 PM

If Wharfe is to be believed, Diana used to travel to her mother's in Scotland and she'd talk have long talks with her, and Frances would give advice. Supposedly she also visited the Wales' home sometimes in the 80s and got along with PC. I think that helped a bit.

Also, though i'm not sure, but didn't Frances husband leave her because he thought that she did not give him/their marriage enough attention? In other words she was preoccupied with Diana and her situation.

I think Frances is an interesting character and i'm not so sure her portrayal is entirely accurate, IMO.

If Frances did indeed take a hands off approach, I do wonder if it wasn't because of her being wary of taking on the "establishment". I think it must have been in a way traumatizing to have your spouse and mother "gang up" on you in order to prevent you from having custody. Maybe that did a number on her? Though of course this is just my speculation.

Another person who's absence is interesting is Diana's father. I've read somewhere that Diana said that he'd only come to visit for 20 minutes or so then leave. And when she came to him for advice he only gave generic answers.

In a way it seems to me that her family made no time for her, or had no time for her. Almost as if wanting her to put up and shut up when she married POW. IMO.

She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults.  So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to  help...

[TLLK]

Bulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well

Absolutely true, but I was speaking about the time shortly after the honeymoon when she was treated for anxiety and depression. (She still wasn't ready to admit the bulimia) As I recall she was sent to a psychiatrist then as well.

[amabel]

Absolutely true, but I was speaking about the time shortly after the honeymoon when she was treated for anxiety and depression. (She still wasn't ready to admit the bulimia) As I recall she was sent to a psychiatrist then as well.

Oh yes I am not sure when the RF realised abt the Bulimia.  I think they probably were puzzled abuot her sudden change after marriage to increased depression and mood swings..and I would say they were even more puzzled about the weight loss.. since at times she would be eating a lot of food.  but they probably thought of it as just excessive dieting at first, since nt much was known about bulimia..

[sandy]

@sandy- Not a "mental patient" but a simply patient being treated for a form of mental illness: anxiety and depression. This is why talk therapy with a mental health professional and medication (Valium) were prescribed to her by a psychiatrist.

Valium is not the answer to all ills. It makes people sleepy and tired and out of it. And it is addictive. I think the psychiatrist was wrong.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 02:09:37 PM

Bulimia is however a mental illness and would need "talking" treatment. (and Valium can be prescribed by a GP (general practiioner).. Im not sure whom Diana saw initially but if she went to a GP with depression and anxiety they might prescribe valium as a short term help.. obviously monitoring it and recommending that she have some kind of in depth therapy as well
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 01:06:19 PM
She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults.  So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to  help...

Maybe just maybe her mother could have stepped in at the right time, when Diana was stressed and worried before and after the wedding. It would not have hurt for her to try.  Her sisters just dismissed Diana's concerns.

Diana was not 'rebuffing' anyone when she spoke to her sisters. They rebuffed her.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 02:12:20 PM

they were not treating her morning sickness.  They were treating her bulimia and depression.  THey do not "give out Valium like candy".  It is prescribed for a period of time and then reviewed.  Since Diana did not take it for logn due to her pregnancy I dot see what the issue is. If she had been taking it for a long time, it might have been a problem but that would not happen

They were not sympathetic to the morning sickness in that family. They did not "understand " it because they did not experience it themselves.  Diana told Morton she had a very uncomfortable pregnancy with William and at Balmoral the royal ladies did not "understand it." Even Charles made some comment about it. They needed some doctor to talk to them about it if they did not experience. THis is clearly spelled out in the Morton book.

SOmetimes Valium is given out like candy. It has happened.

Diana said she got "doses" of valium not one a day. Not healthy in the least.

[amabel]

Valium can be a useful tool, to relieve anxiety temporarily.  it si not taken to the point where someone can become addicted. It is not a substitute for psychotherapy but Diana did not talk bout her bulimia to her doctors.
Diana almost certainly didn't talk to her sisters about her bulimia.  Its possible that Sarah and Jane tried ot speak to her about her weight but she would not listen at the time.

[TLLK]

Valium is not the answer to all ills. It makes people sleepy and tired and out of it. And it is addictive. I think the psychiatrist was wrong.

As @amabel-Pointed out it is prescribed because of its proven effectiveness in treating patients with anxiety and Diana presented  the symptoms of a patient with anxiety. Yes it must be monitored, but because if has been proven to be effective for many patients, it is part of the protocol along with talk therapy which was also prescribed for her.  :)

I understand that you believe that it was wrong, but the psychiatrist who was treating her believed that it was necessary to prescribe it for his patient. To not do so would have been malpractice. However when it was discovered that Diana was pregnant, she would need to stop taking the drug which she did. Had Diana been honest and  revealed to that psychiatrist that she was binge eating and  purging, her treatment would have been to address that illness as well as her anxiety and depression. Most likely she would have then been referred to Lipsedge at that point.

[oak_and_cedar]

She's the one (Frances SK) who said that she believed in "maternal redundancy" ie mothers keeping out of their childnre's marriages and lives as adults.  So while Dian might have rebuffed her if she gave her advice or talked about her weight loss, I still think that Frances wasn't overly keen to  help...

Well that is sad when you think about it. Her family might have not been able to do anything about her marriage, but they could have embraced her more when she needed them. Their attitude towards Diana is very strange, almost like she was an afterthought. I do wonder if she was bullied by them growing up...

[sandy]

Valium can be a useful tool, to relieve anxiety temporarily.  it si not taken to the point where someone can become addicted. It is not a substitute for psychotherapy but Diana did not talk bout her bulimia to her doctors.
Diana almost certainly didn't talk to her sisters about her bulimia.  Its possible that Sarah and Jane tried ot speak to her about her weight but she would not listen at the time.

It is a bandaid. I know people who were given valium for stress and they could not just keep on taking it. There had to be limits. And it causes dependence.

I don't think Sarah and Jane paid attention much to Diana. I would not call it "almost certainly."

Diana was very upset about Charles' actions pre wedding they just brushed it off. If they had this attitude it would be  a waste of time for Diana to bring anything up to them.

If the doctors Charles sent to her were IMO useless.
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 06:40:43 PM

As @amabel-Pointed out it is prescribed because of its proven effectiveness in treating patients with anxiety and Diana presented  the symptoms of a patient with anxiety. Yes it must be monitored, but because if has been proven to be effective for many patients, it is part of the protocol along with talk therapy which was also prescribed for her.  :)

I understand that you believe that it was wrong, but the psychiatrist who was treating her believed that it was necessary to prescribe it for his patient. To not do so would have been malpractice. However when it was discovered that Diana was pregnant, she would need to stop taking the drug which she did. Had Diana been honest and  revealed to that psychiatrist that she was binge eating and  purging, her treatment would have been to address that illness as well as her anxiety and depression. Most likely she would have then been referred to Lipsedge at that point.

I think the doctors sent to her were not exactly the best choices. They could have referred her to Lipsedge. If they had no ideas about Diana's condition it is their problem. I don't get why Diana keeps being given all the responsiblity fo the doctors shortcomings.