Looking critically

[sandy]

Diana was sick because of morning sickness. I don't call that "boredom." Boredom does not include pain and discomfort.

Frances was taken to Doctors for checkups as to why she could not produce a live male heir. It was the husband's fault because he determined the sex. Frances was humiliated.

[amabel]

Diana was sick because of morning sickness. I don't call that "boredom." Boredom does not include pain and discomfort.

Frances was taken to Doctors for checkups as to why she could not produce a live male heir. It was the husband's fault because he determined the sex. Frances was humiliated.

who said she was bored?????

[sandy]

One of the posts above claimed this.

[oak_and_cedar]

She left him because she'd fallen in love with another man..adn she was bored with life as a country squires wife. She took the children but wasn't able to retain custody...

Frances grew up in the country (I think) and could have purchased an apartment and visited London whenever she wanted.

The problem was, IMO, that she had a difficult marriage. She married at 18, and became a mother shortly thereafter. She was under pressure to "produce" a male heir, and lost a son. And this was in her twenties.

[amabel]

One of the posts above claimed this.

Frances grew up in the country (I think) and could have purchased an apartment and visited London whenever she wanted.

The problem was, IMO, that she had a difficult marriage. She married at 18, and became a mother shortly thereafter. She was under pressure to "produce" a male heir, and lost a son. And this was in her twenties.

True there was pressure but the wives of titled men were there to provide male heirs.. as otherwise the titles would die out.
She didn't want an apartment in London, she wanted to get away from Johnny and the country.. and to be with her lover..
Double post auto-merged: September 16, 2019, 07:48:54 PM

One of the posts above claimed this.

Did they?

[sandy]

Yes. But I maintain she was not bored, she did not feel well.

She got the apartment in London after she had the Male  Heir. The marriage was falling apart even after she had the living male heir. John put a little too much pressure on Frances. He was the one who determines the sex of the baby so the pressure was on him to give the Y chromosome.

[amabel]

Yes. But I maintain she was not bored, she did not feel well.

She got the apartment in London after she had the Male  Heir. The marriage was falling apart even after she had the living male heir. John put a little too much pressure on Frances. He was the one who determines the sex of the baby so the pressure was on him to give the Y chromosome.

the marriage was not a great one.  There was a big age gap.  Frances hated being a squire's wife and wanted to get to London and have some fun.  She fell for Peter Shand Kydd and wanted to be with him..

[oak_and_cedar]

True there was pressure but the wives of titled men were there to provide male heirs.. as otherwise the titles would die out.
She didn't want an apartment in London, she wanted to get away from Johnny and the country.. and to be with her lover..

We don't know what would have happened had her ex-husband been more reasonable and agreeable, IMO. She probably would have stayed with earl Spencer and visited the city whenever she liked. It was foolish of her to have an affair with a married man.

[amabel]

We don't know what would have happened had her ex-husband been more reasonable and agreeable, IMO. She probably would have stayed with earl Spencer and visited the city whenever she liked. It was foolish of her to have an affair with a married man.

her hsuband was I think willing to turn a blind eye to an affair. But Frances wasn't willig to go on wiht the marriage. She wanted to leave him and live with her new man.  She didn't want a life as the squire's wife.. She wanted to be with her new husband,.

[oak_and_cedar]

I think that in some ways it was a difficult marriage and Frances felt the effect of it IMO. It can't be easy to have gone through what she Went through. I'm just curious as to why she waited to file for divorce until she found someone new.

[sandy]

She was about 18 when she met Spencer who was serious about another woman. Frances and John met and it was love at first sight. Frances' mother Lady Fermoy had ambitions and encouraged the match.

[oak_and_cedar]

The marriage could have lasted, if there was not so much pressure on Frances, IMO.

[Curryong]

I think that in some ways it was a difficult marriage and Frances felt the effect of it IMO. It can't be easy to have gone through what she Went through. I'm just curious as to why she waited to file for divorce until she found someone new.

I think the key to that is 'married when she was 18'. Frances was a deb before her engagement, no experience of the workforce in any way (even floating around some art gallery or office) and under the thumb of a socially ambitious Mama.

I do think that Frances and Johnny were in love when they married and up until the birth of baby John that the marriage was stable. IMO it was after the trauma of that tragedy that Frances started to feel a bit unhappy in her marriage. I think another two children later and still pretty and in her twenties that feeling increased. She began to feel  trapped and isolated in the country.

However, it's a big frightening world out there without a husband and with disapproval from others for leaving your husband for no particular reason other than you are no longer IN love with him as you once were. Especially if you have never lived alone without another adult presence around.

And don't let's forget that there was no No Fault divorce around in those days in Britain. That is quite important in this case as the grounds for divorce were few and Johnny wasn't a drunk, or insane or unfaithful.

The couple did still have quite a good social life. They met the Shand Kydds, hit it off with them, Peter was a good looking charmer, and the rest is history. If they hadn't met, who knows. Frances might have settled for what she had, remained in Norfolk and become Countess Spencer of Althorp in the fullness of time.

That's my take on it anyway!

A brief history of divorce | Life and style | The Guardian

[amabel]

The marriage could have lasted, if there was not so much pressure on Frances, IMO.

I don't think so, but it was her choice to leave Johnny Spencer
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:23:17 AM

I think the key to that is 'married when she was 18'. Frances was a deb before her engagement, no experience of the workforce in any way (even floating around some art gallery or office) and under the thumb of a socially ambitious Mama.

I do think that Frances and Johnny were in love when they married and up until the birth of baby John that the marriage was stable. IMO it was after the trauma of that tragedy that Frances started to feel a bit unhappy in her marriage. I think another two children later and still pretty and in her twenties that feeling increased. She began to feel  trapped and isolated in the country.

However, it's a big frightening world out there without a husband and with disapproval from others for leaving your husband for no particular reason other than you are no longer IN love with him as you once were. Especially if you have never lived alone without another adult presence around.

And don't let's forget that there was no No Fault divorce around in those days in Britain. That is quite important in this case as the grounds for divorce were few and Johnny wasn't a drunk, or insane or unfaithful.

The couple did still have quite a good social life. They met the Shand Kydds, hit it off with them, Peter was a good looking charmer, and the rest is history. If they hadn't met, who knows. Frances might have settled for what she had, remained in Norfolk and become Countess Spencer of Althorp in the fullness of time.

That's my take on it anyway!

A brief history of divorce | Life and style | The Guardian

I think that she wanted more than a dull probably difficult husband and th life of a country squire's wife.  Even if they did have plenty of money and they did have  a reasonable social life, johnny was happy living as a country squire, with his farms and his tenants and sports.. and Frances wanted more sophisitciated amusements.  She did have pressure with having children but then that was part of having a title, the requirement to produce an heir..
And I think she did not want a job or an "independent life " as such.. just more freedom and a more congenial partner.

[sandy]

It was John SPencer's responsibility to provide the Y chromosome if he wanted a son. His wife did not determine the sex of the children.

[amabel]

It was John SPencer's responsibility to provide the Y chromosome if he wanted a son. His wife did not determine the sex of the children.

Yes we know this.  It was nto the reason for the failure of his marriage though...

[sandy]

Frances was worn down by all of this by the time the healthy son was born

Yes we may all know it but John apparently didn't blaming his wife

[amabel]

Frances was worn down by all of this by the time the healthy son was born

Yes we may all know it but John apparently didn't blaming his wife

He was very upset by the lack of a son, as most men in his positon with a title would be..
and when Frances had a son, Johnny was as far as I can see an indulgent enough husband who didn't mind her having a bit more time in London..but he didn't want to go there himself much.  He was blindsided by her suddenly takig off with another man

[sandy]

Well he would have had to live with having only daughters. Some other aristos did not have daughters and a cousin got the title.

I don't think John changed after he had the boy. Relations were said to be strained between them while they were "trying" for a son and there was no going back.

[amabel]

Well he would have had to live with having only daughters. Some other aristos did not have daughters and a cousin got the title.

I don't think John changed after he had the boy. Relations were said to be strained between them while they were "trying" for a son and there was no going back.

It would not matter if they had daughters since vrery few titles are inheritable by a woman. Don't know what you mean. And generally people would prefer their estates and titles to go to their own heirs.  Frances SK must have known that in marrying an earl, it would be important for him to have  a male heir.

[sandy]

I think it is clear that cousins or other relatives inherit if an aristo just has daughters, it goes to the next male in line. That is what I mean.

So people just have to learn to live with having daughters. It is better to have wonderful female children IMO than inherit a title. There should be some priorities here.

[amabel]

I think it is clear that cousins or other relatives inherit if an aristo just has daughters, it goes to the next male in line. That is what I mean.

So people just have to learn to live with having daughters. It is better to have wonderful female children IMO than inherit a title. There should be some priorities here.

The priorty is to keept the estate in good shape and hand it on to the next generation...

[sandy]

So if a man does not have sons he's a failure. I think not.

I recall a Duke of Norfolk had no sons so it went to another relative.

[amabel]

So if a man does not have sons he's a failure. I think not.

I recall a Duke of Norfolk had no sons so it went to another relative.

Yes of course it happens.  But it is a titled mans primary responsibility to hold onto and improve his estate and provide an heir for it. 

[sandy]

So if he does not have the heir, it's out of his  hands and perhaps his daughters can be wed to other aristos with estates.