Giving up the title HRH

sandy · January 03, 2020, 01:07:44 AM

She is still their grandmother and I hardly think they would brush her off because they never "met her." JFK JR barely remembered his father but cared so much he helped plan the Kennedy Library and mentioned his father many times. I can see that it would matter to Diana's grandchildren, I doubt they would substitute Camilla for their own Grandmother just because they did not "meet her."

amabel · January 03, 2020, 09:29:37 AM

Quote from: sandy on January 03, 2020, 01:07:44 AM
She is still their grandmother and I hardly think they would brush her off because they never "met her." JFK JR barely remembered his father but cared so much he helped plan the Kennedy Library and mentioned his father many times. I can see that it would matter to Diana's grandchildren, I doubt they would substitute Camilla for their own Grandmother just because they did not "meet her."

They never knew her so all they will know of her is what their parents tell them.. And I don't quite see what it has to do with whether she had an HRH or not.. If anyone were to restore it, it would be William and he has never indicated that he would do so... I can't see the point. She is still his mother regardless of her title..

sandy · January 04, 2020, 01:39:08 AM

Whether or not he restores it is subject to speculation, he is hardly going to talk about it when his father is next in line, he could have a very long wait. William as a child told Diana he would restore it, he's not going to be talking about it now.

amabel · January 04, 2020, 09:32:24 AM

Quote from: sandy on January 04, 2020, 01:39:08 AM
Whether or not he restores it is subject to speculation, he is hardly going to talk about it when his father is next in line, he could have a very long wait. William as a child told Diana he would restore it, he's not going to be talking about it now.

And IMO he isn't going to do it. But whatever he does, I don't quite see how it would matter. Diana is his mother, he didn't love her because she had an HRH but because she was his mother. Her grandchildren will not know her, and it can hardly matter to them whether she had an HRH or not...

sandy · January 04, 2020, 12:51:03 PM

I don't see why it would be a bad thing if she did. Her grandchildren will not know her personally but will learn about her from those near and dear to her. Deceased grandparents are not people to be disposable and pushed aside by their descendants. Otherwise people would not care about genealogy.

amabel · January 04, 2020, 12:56:04 PM

Quote from: sandy on January 04, 2020, 12:51:03 PM
I don't see why it would be a bad thing if she did. Her grandchildren will not know her personally but will learn about her from those near and dear to her. Deceased grandparents are not people to be disposable and pushed aside by their descendants. Otherwise people would not care about genealogy.

but what difference can it make to her grandchildren (or to anyone) if she ahd an HRH or not.

sandy · January 04, 2020, 01:11:40 PM

Only they will know.

TLLK · January 04, 2020, 01:36:11 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 12:56:04 PM
but what difference can it make to her grandchildren (or to anyone) if she ahd an HRH or not.

To be honest, I don't believe that it will make a difference. If their fathers are content to leave the matter "as is" then the grandchildren will likely just understand that when people divorced their style/title could change just like with Sarah, Duchess of York.

Trudie · January 04, 2020, 01:45:36 PM

The way I see the title Diana was HRH almost her entire adult life. All the places she opened bore a plaque opened by HRH The Princess of Wales on such a date. These still remain as do all the biographies written during her tenure as HRH. Diana died only one year after her divorce and loss of the HRH and many people today still refer to her as HRH. Her grandchildren will know Diana as HRH their grandmother as basically as I said her entire adult life she was HRH with a one year loss.

oak_and_cedar · January 04, 2020, 01:48:39 PM

She should have been allowed to keep the HRH if only for being the mother of the future king.

TLLK · January 04, 2020, 02:07:11 PM

@Trudie-I agree that all of what you say is true, I just don't know if it will truly impact how her grandchildren feel about her.

amabel · January 04, 2020, 02:10:46 PM

Quote from: sandy on January 04, 2020, 01:11:40 PM
Only they will know.

I hardly think a few kids, who didn't ever know her, are goig ot have any ideas about whether their grandmother had an HRH or not...

Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 02:11:24 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 01:48:39 PM
She should have been allowed to keep the HRH if only for being the mother of the future king.

The queen did not agree.....

Curryong · January 04, 2020, 02:35:26 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 02:10:46 PM
I hardly think a few kids, who didn't ever know her, are goig ot have any ideas about whether their grandmother had an HRH or not...
Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 02:11:24 PM

The queen did not agree.....

No the Queen did not agree. That doesn't mean she was correct in her decision. She is not infallible. She underestimated for instance the amount of love the population held for Diana, only fully realising it when she came down to London from Balmoral. She reportedly said of the mounds of flowers 'They didn't even do that for my father'. In fact things got to such a state that it required a nifty bit of PR by the advisers at BP in the way of a broadcast to the nation before Diana's funeral and bowing her head before the cortege. So she didn't read the mood of the nation right on that occasion.

And, if the reports are correct about Fellowes' discussion with Charles Earl Spencer, Elizabeth may well have re-thought the HRH business as well, but it was taken out of her hands apparently as Charles S turned it down.

There have been plenty of examples during the Queen's reign of her prevaricating, refusing to face up to situations, putting her head in the sand and making bad decisions on behalf of her family, to smash any illusion of the all-seeing, all knowing cool headed monarch. She's just as capable of getting things wrong as anyone else. And IMO the decision to take the HRH away from Diana was one of those times.

Trudie · January 04, 2020, 03:19:43 PM

Quote from: TLLK on January 04, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
@Trudie-I agree that all of what you say is true, I just don't know if it will truly impact how her grandchildren feel about her.

HRH or not truly will have no real impact on her grandchildren or how they feel about her IMO they will know her through the people who truly mattered to her William, Harry, and their Spencer relations. Although Diana should have been able to retain her HRH as befitting the mother of a future King or Kings as the time of her death I don't believe their feelings about her rest on the HRH when one considers they love their commoner Grandmother Carole Middleton who is certainly not titled.

amabel · January 04, 2020, 04:17:12 PM

so what is the problem? It does not impinge on Diana, she's dead. her grandchildren have never known her. Her sons can hardly care whether she is an HRH or not, esp since she is dead...
and the HRH is in the queen's gift.

Trudie · January 04, 2020, 04:30:07 PM

@ Amabel the problem is Diana should have been styled HRH at the time of her divorce befitting her status as the mother and grandmother of future kings. Diana was responsible not only for securing the line of succession she also made the monarchy more relevant during an unpopular time. Contrary to what you and others may believe dead or alive they care very much about the HRH and William is not currently in a position to do anything about it as he is still second in the line of succession. The royals are very status-conscious as is evidenced by the bows and curtsy family members make to each other and their position although for the public they understand it should be obligatory. While HRH Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra were obligated to curtsy to Diana whether or not Charles was with her now Camilla has to curtsy to the blood Princesses if Charles is not with her get the picture?

amabel · January 04, 2020, 04:36:04 PM

that is why Diana wanted to try and keep her HRH. She was bothered about issues like who had to curtsty to whom...
. but its up to the queen and the queen did not see fit to leave it with her. But Diana is dead now and the issues of curtsying don't arise...

Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 08:18:40 PM

Quote from: TLLK on January 04, 2020, 02:07:11 PM
@Trudie-I agree that all of what you say is true, I just don't know if it will truly impact how her grandchildren feel about her.

I cant' see how they will "know Diana as HRH" though. They will hear about her mostly from William and Harry, and they are hardly likely to refer to her by a title.. They'll talk about "your Granny Diana"... If she had remarried before her death she would probably have been Lady Diana something.. and I doubt if that would have affected how her sons or any grandchildren would think of her...

sandy · January 04, 2020, 11:34:53 PM

I doubt the "curstying" would have not been strictly enforced. I think the Queen would have given Diana a dispensation regarding courstying to Camilla under the circumstances (though had Diana lived, there probably would have been more of a delay in C and C wedding).

Posthumous honors can be conferred. James I made sure there was a tomb with a sculpture of her to honor his mother (who was executed) Mary Queen of Scots. And she was given a spot of honor in Westminster Abbey. Even though he was separated from her for years, he did this for her. He did care.

Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 11:35:50 PM

Quote from: Trudie on January 04, 2020, 04:30:07 PM
@ Amabel the problem is Diana should have been styled HRH at the time of her divorce befitting her status as the mother and grandmother of future kings. Diana was responsible not only for securing the line of succession she also made the monarchy more relevant during an unpopular time. Contrary to what you and others may believe dead or alive they care very much about the HRH and William is not currently in a position to do anything about it as he is still second in the line of succession. The royals are very status-conscious as is evidenced by the bows and curtsy family members make to each other and their position although for the public they understand it should be obligatory. While HRH Princess Anne and Princess Alexandra were obligated to curtsy to Diana whether or not Charles was with her now Camilla has to curtsy to the blood Princesses if Charles is not with her get the picture?

With the line of succession photos now in the news, all the males are seen. But without Diana there would be no William or George. It takes two parents to have a child.

Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 11:37:16 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 04:17:12 PM
so what is the problem? It does not impinge on Diana, she's dead. her grandchildren have never known her. Her sons can hardly care whether she is an HRH or not, esp since she is dead...
and the HRH is in the queen's gift.

How her sons feel is subject to speculation. I hope that monument to her happens next year. Her grandchildren I think would be very proud to be related to Princess Diana. Why wouldn't the grandchildren care?

amabel · January 05, 2020, 11:45:00 AM

We're not talking about how they feel about Diana. we're talking about the implication that the grandchildren that it would boter them if she was not HRH. why would it?

Trudie · January 05, 2020, 12:59:27 PM

To a child, it doesn't matter however as adults when they learn of the truth Camilla played in the divorce of their grandparents it may bother them that Diana lost her HRH through no fault really of her own but Camilla was rewarded with it.

amabel · January 05, 2020, 01:16:57 PM

Quote from: Trudie on January 05, 2020, 12:59:27 PM
To a child, it doesn't matter however as adults when they learn of the truth Camilla played in the divorce of their grandparents it may bother them that Diana lost her HRH through no fault really of her own but Camilla was rewarded with it.

Camilla is HRH because she is married to the Prince. Diana lost her HRH because she and Charles divorced and she was the one who wanted the divorce...

Trudie · January 05, 2020, 01:30:42 PM

@ Amabel Wallis Simpson was married to a Prince/ Duke and wasn't an HRH. Diana wanted the divorce because there were three in her marriage and despite what they say it didn't start until 1986 Charles never left Camilla 1986 is the palace official timeline however, it doesn't matter Diana was no Sarah Duchess of York she worked her tail off on behalf of the monarchy as I said she should have kept her HRH as the mother and grandmother of future kings and or queen.

sandy · January 05, 2020, 01:50:46 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 05, 2020, 01:16:57 PM
Camilla is HRH because she is married to the Prince. Diana lost her HRH because she and Charles divorced and she was the one who wanted the divorce...

She said she did not want to divorce. DIana should have not lost the HRH. The QUeen ordered the divorce, diana did not and could not.

Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2020, 01:51:59 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 05, 2020, 11:45:00 AM
We're not talking about how they feel about Diana. we're talking about the implication that the grandchildren that it would boter them if she was not HRH. why would it?

Why the assumption they wouldn't care? Their grandmother is not some obscure figure exactly.

amabel · January 05, 2020, 02:09:32 PM

Quote from: Trudie on January 05, 2020, 01:30:42 PM
@ Amabel Wallis Simpson was married to a Prince/ Duke and wasn't an HRH. Diana wanted the divorce because there were three in her marriage and despite what they say it didn't start until 1986 Charles never left Camilla 1986 is the palace official timeline however, it doesn't matter Diana was no Sarah Duchess of York she worked her tail off on behalf of the monarchy as I said she should have kept her HRH as the mother and grandmother of future kings and or queen.

Its in the gift of the queen and she did not agree...

TLLK · January 05, 2020, 02:42:25 PM

As I understand it, when a hereditary titled couple divorce, the protocol/tradition dictates that the spouse loses the style/title that they obtained upon being married. Not surprisingly QEII chose to follow the tradition with her sister and daughters-in-law then.

By the time that the Wales divorced, both the Snowdons and the Yorks were divorced. Princess Margaret was no longer "The Countess of Snowdon" and likewise Sarah was no longer considered to be " HRH The Duchess of York."

Now since then, their European counterparts have either kept to the tradition or made a slight alteration to it. When Denmark's Joachim and Alexandra divorced, she went through a gradual step down in style and title. IMO Denmark's Margrethe knew that what had happened to Diana in the UK was unpopular at the time so she slowly phased out Alexandra's style/title based upon her post divorce marital status. She went from HRH Princess Alexandra to HH Princess Alexandra and ultimately HE The Countess of Frederiksburg upon her remarriage.

Now I seriously doubt that Diana's grandchildren are going to care about a style/title that she once held in relation to any feelings they'll have for her. When they're older they'll be able to understand that there were issues in the Wales' marriage that led to their divorce and read about everyone's behavior during that time.