Prince William to open IWM Foundation's new First World War Galleries 17 July

Started by PrincessOfPeace, July 16, 2014, 07:56:24 PM

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DaisyMeRollin

^You know he could have done this in more productive ways, right?^
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

HistoryGirl

Quote from: Adrienne on July 19, 2014, 04:12:14 AM
Quote from: HistoryGirl on July 19, 2014, 03:39:49 AM
He could've said "It caused a great deal of chaos and confusion"; he couldve said "there were many mistakes made"; he couldve said "a lot of bad things came from it". But I must admit as a history major, I tend to not want to trivialize such important events no matter who I'm discussing it with so I'm particularly sensitive to comments like that.

But it's not really his role to do off-the-cuff cogent historical analysis. It's his job to make the people he comes into contact with feel good. Seriously, that's basically what he's there for.

As Andrew Marr observed in The Diamond Queen: "Senior members of the royal family have to cultivate a skill almost nobody else needs. It's a carefully timed dance through the higher small talk designed to calm the nervous, restrain the overtalkative, release some tension, produce a little bubble of laughter, and, in that way, ensure that millions of people leave events like these having had some sort of personal connection with, in this case, the Duke of Edinburgh, but in general the British monarchy."

Correcting a 10 year old's grasp of history, in a public venue, either has to be done with perfect grace and delicacy or not at all. Otherwise the story would be about how William made a small boy feel bad about himself, and all available evidence suggests that when they're on duty, the current members of the RF will generally choose to look a bit dim over making small kids feel bad.

It's comments like Mr. Marr's that make me see the phoniness of it all and prevent me from seeing anyone in the British Royal Family as a true role model.


Curryong

I can't imagine Charles or even the Duke of Edinburgh replying to a child's remark in that way.

wannable

His parents are probably hippies. Wars are stupid, lives destroyed, it's the excuse to keep the economy going, forceful ways to get compensation, territory, spoils, oil.

A WW3 we will all get nuked. The kid is smart.

cinrit

QuoteThe Duke of Cambridge Unveils the Matthew Flinders Memorial Statue

The Duke of Cambridge has unveiled a statue in honour of the first man to identify Australia as a continent.

The Duke, who visited the Commonwealth country with The Duchess of Cambridge and Prince George in April, said he was honoured to celebrate a man who "did far more than anyone to place Australia - quite literally - on the map".

Captain Matthew Flinders, the first person to circumnavigate Australia at the age of just 27, is a household name Down Under but little known in his native Britain.

The 6ft (1.8m) bronze memorial of the cartographer, designed by sculptor Mark Richards, was unveiled by The Duke at Australia House today.

The government of South Australia hopes to bolster Captain Flinders' profile among British people by permanently erecting the statue at Euston station in central London, the site where it is believed Captain Flinders was buried on his death at the age of 40.

More: The Duke of Cambridge unveils the Matthew Flinders Memorial Statue

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

DaisyMeRollin

Just curious (and I'm really trying not to offend), PoP, but this seems to be a reoccurring trend, if you feel so strongly in defense of the monarchy, why do you seemingly skirt opportunities for comprehensive rebuttals to solidify your stance and maybe enlighten others as to the non-superficial aspects surrounding royalty?

Why didn't you answer Orchid? Not just the time below, but this was most recent:

Prince William & Kate bid to create no-fly zone over new country home

Quote from: Orchid on July 13, 2014, 12:58:19 AM
I'm not sure the UK government has communism (Politiburo) in mind when using the term to define [itself] as the government of a nation-state, but I suppose it's open to subjective interpretation.

You've linked the Sovereign Grant Act with my point about engineering a fiscally leaner monarchy for the future?  Are you reasoning that Parliament passing the Act negates any claims that monarchy poses an unnecessarily large expense to the state and/or the validity of proposals to review costs/apply debarments for the future? I'd be very interested to read more about the point you're making.

On the point of republicanism: I must admit that it's very difficult to engage with you in a discussion about republican perspectives on monarchy when you use derogatory language such a "whinging" to describe the views of a few in the context of a political whole. Nevertheless I'll wade into the commentary and iterate that Republic is a campaign pressure group which does indeed liaise with MP's in parliament and work with party activists to engineer greater parliamentary support. However that is for a separate discussion. But I am curious. Why have you imported republicanism into the topic of KP renovations and their associated costs to the state? Do you tie any proposals that work to engineer a leaner monarchy to republicanism? Genuinely, I'm curious.

As am I.
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

cinrit

Quote from: DaisyMeRollin on July 19, 2014, 05:46:55 AM
^You know he could have done this in more productive ways, right?^   

I'm not convinced that this wasn't the most productive way to respond to a 10-year-old in the middle of an engagement where he has only a minute or so, if that, per person he meets and shakes hands with.  He wasn't there to give lessons on war strategy and purpose; that's why the museum exists.  He responded to the child in a way a child can best understand in a few seconds.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

TLLK

Quote from: DaisyMeRollin on July 19, 2014, 04:54:53 AM
And I say this as a teacher, granted not in History or as a primary school educator, and also have a small child myself,  that he had a missed opportunity to enlighten young children. You can't redact facts, but you start out making them acceptable for the age group, and continue cumulatively. Education in cumulative.

If your soul purpose in keeping a monarchy afloat is primarily in terms of reputation, he missed a huge opportunity with both of his grandparents' contributions during WWII. He is very oblivious to his role.

Edits. Had a good evening. LOL!


Speaking from my own experience with working with elementary school aged kids I would be more comfortable having a longer and more detailed conversation with a student that I would have had days, weeks or months of interaction with compared to a student that I'd met moments before. Had this been the POTUS, FLOTUS in a similar situation who had given the same response then I wouldn't have an issue with it. If the opportunity had been available to engage in a longer discussion then William could have shared his family's history with WWII.

DaisyMeRollin

Neither HG or I said that he should have presented a lesson in "war strategy". We've already mentioned that there are more expansive, age appropriate approaches to lessons within WWI and WWII. This very binary outlook on what lessons can be attributed to both wars is a little annoying.

Andrew Marr's commentary on the is a very superficial synopsis of the role of an establishment that is, realistically, maintained by grace of the public. It seems as though staunch royalists could be, not completely (not fiscally), but somewhat comparable to the conservative-right in the US in that patriotism and a religious hand should be kept in-state. Can reverence of an institution that is dependent on reputation and legacy last if their future is dependent on someone who is seemingly blase about perpetuating his families' legacy when he is in a state of limbo in cultivating his own?

Back to this binary thinking in terms of his defense, he could have given a nod to the contributions of civilians on the home front, his grandparents' efforts, he could have mentioned that it was a moral obligation to maintain the freedom and continuity of Europe, etc. It doesn't have to be exclusively gritty accounts of bloodshed.

Can you blame people for being a smidge critical? It seems as a society, we've been so far displaced from the reality of recent conflicts sometimes, or at least, Americans are. I enjoy engaging with you, but this has me thinking of a previous thread that highlighted the sheer and utter indifference, or dare I say, ignorance that one of the royalist on here displayed in terms of geopolitics. It's a little disconcerting what some people will defend when someone has a title.

EDIT: TLLK, I suppose you and Cinrit are right, given the time allotted, but I can't help but think all William ever does is "go through the motions" a this point.
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

Lady Adams

DaisyMeRollin, I really appreciate your post above and think that it is well thought, and appropriate. More than just a "good post," it gives us something to think about.

I do think William could have answered this in a short amount of time-- perhaps a better answer could have been:"Britain worked very hard to end World War II." Or something to that extent. He didn't need to correct a child, but to seemingly agree (as the reporter implied) is tough to comprehend when so many innocent people were dying at the hands of Hitler.
"To avoid criticism, do nothing, say nothing, and be nothing." --Elbert Hubbard, American writer

PrincessOfPeace

Quote from: cinrit on July 19, 2014, 03:49:14 PM
Quote from: DaisyMeRollin on July 19, 2014, 05:46:55 AM
^You know he could have done this in more productive ways, right?^   

I'm not convinced that this wasn't the most productive way to respond to a 10-year-old in the middle of an engagement where he has only a minute or so, if that, per person he meets and shakes hands with.  He wasn't there to give lessons on war strategy and purpose; that's why the museum exists.  He responded to the child in a way a child can best understand in a few seconds.

Cindy

Good post Cindy  :thumbsup:

cinrit

Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

DaisyMeRollin

Quote from: Lady Adams on July 19, 2014, 04:37:19 PM
DaisyMeRollin, I really appreciate your post above and think that it is well thought, and appropriate. More than just a "good post," it gives us something to think about.

I do think William could have answered this in a short amount of time-- perhaps a better answer could have been:"Britain worked very hard to end World War II." Or something to that extent. He didn't need to correct a child, but to seemingly agree (as the reporter implied) is tough to comprehend when so many innocent people were dying at the hands of Hitler.

I completely agree with the bolded. Maybe I'm just recalling my primary education, but we began a very, admittedly, condensed and "kid glove" preliminary segue into WWII at the same age, and this was around the time of the Bosnia/Herzegovina conflict.

Sometimes, I just wonder how displaced from reality he is. Given, not only the Middle-Eastern conflict that we have been engaged in for a decade and the conflict in the Ukraine,  but also the events of the past two weeks, there are lessons to be learned.

He is not his grandmother.
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

TLLK

^^^I know that here in CA that most schools take a gentle approach to WWII especially with younger students. Older students beginning in middle school are given more information regarding the more horrific details. In my own Japanese expat and Japanese-American community you will find many elderly people who as children were interred in camps in the mainland states for the duration of the war.  Those living in the then territory of Hawaii were not interred as the island would have lost a large percentage of its workforce. So teachers in our schools are aware of the impact on members of the local population as many lost homes, farms and businesses due to their internment.

My husband's grandfather was a doctor in the German army during WWII. He spent most of his service time in an Allied POW camp in Norway. He was very grateful that the Americans eventually took control of their town in Bavaria and that it was not the Soviets who were the occupying force. So my kids are aware of their great-grandfathers' roles in the Allied and Axis forces.

Considering William's, his grandfather's, uncle's, father's and brother's military training, service records and the active duty that most of them saw I do believe that he is aware of what is happening in the various conflicts around the world and how it impacts the UK and Commonwealth.  He would have been a child/young teen during the end of the Cold War and the break up of the Eastern Bloc nations so like most students at that time they would have seen the political maps changing very rapidly. Plus he was a geography major at St. Andrew's University.

In not giving a more detailed answer to a ten year-old IMO does not indicate that he is not aware of the past and current political climate around the globe.  :)


Limabeany

 :notworthy: :goodpost: :notworthy:
Quote from: Adrienne on July 19, 2014, 04:46:24 AM
And I stand by my statement: Correcting a 10 year old's grasp of history, in a public venue, either has to be done with perfect grace and delicacy or not at all.

And I say that as someone who has a history degree, a small child, and a great deal of respect for the huge amount of work teachers do in balancing the need to correct kids who are incorrect or mistaken, in front of other kids, while still encouraging them to engage in learning.
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

DaisyMeRollin

Quote from: TLLK on July 19, 2014, 06:05:32 PM
^^^I know that here in CA that most schools take a gentle approach to WWII especially with younger students. Older students beginning in middle school are given more information regarding the more horrific details. In my own Japanese expat and Japanese-American community you will find many elderly people who as children were interred in camps in the mainland states for the duration of the war.  Those living in the then territory of Hawaii were not interred as the island would have lost a large percentage of its workforce. So teachers in our schools are aware of the impact on members of the local population as many lost homes, farms and businesses due to their internment.

My husband's grandfather was a doctor in the German army during WWII. He spent most of his service time in an Allied POW camp in Norway. He was very grateful that the Americans eventually took control of their town in Bavaria and that it was not the Soviets who were the occupying force. So my kids are aware of their great-grandfathers' roles in the Allied and Axis forces.

Considering William's, his grandfather's, uncle's, father's and brother's military training, service records and the active duty that most of them saw I do believe that he is aware of what is happening in the various conflicts around the world and how it impacts the UK and Commonwealth.  He would have been a child/young teen during the end of the Cold War and the break up of the Eastern Bloc nations so like most students at that time they would have seen the political maps changing very rapidly. Plus he was a geography major at St. Andrew's University.

In not giving a more detailed answer to a ten year-old IMO does not indicate that he is not aware of the past and current political climate around the globe.  :)

:goodpost:

(Warning: Getting a little off topic.)

That's the same approach we had, emphasis on "had". Your state knows where to divvy it's expenditures in a way that is conducive to the continuity of your state, where as, here there has been a recognizable deterioration of education standard follow massive budgetary cuts for over a decade now. That, coupled with a more "buffet" style approach district-to-district, which is in no way has been a success in terms of doling out a well-rounded and expansive outlook for our students. It's a terrible degeneration that has been becoming increasingly obvious since we were "Patient Zero" for NCLB. (I bet you can guess where I am. LOL!)

The immediacy of WWI/WWII is pretty non-existent, in my opinion, due to apathy with each succeeding class or being so far displaced from it by generation. I have dual citizenship for the US and Germany, and my great uncle was interned in Russia and wasn't released until the 1960's. My uncle-by-marriage's father was going to be a part of Operation Sea Lion. (I'm not even going to get into the abandonment, suicide, and chronic alcoholism that stemmed from WWI and continued for three generations on my German side of the family.) I've been bouncing back and forth across the pond since the age of six months. Then, I have the American side. LOL!

While this experience and familial history was important to me, I could identify the detachment among my peers at a young age and still can, with not only peers but also students. The immediacy of the ramifications of internment, granted my state had a few interment camps for POWs, is very beneficial to CA.

Maybe I have a bee in my bonnet about in-staff approaching. Whatever.

What is his degree and military training worth? Sorry to be cynical, but it appears that he was simply going through the motions with both also. Tradition! Tradition! Hallow words and no legitimate passion about anything.





"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

HistoryGirl

I agree Daisy. The fact that it was such an off hand remark leads me to think he didn't particularly care about the children or those that visited the museum knew the truth. The lack of passion was disappointing, but like I said, not at all surprising.

DaisyMeRollin

^Thank you. I always appreciate your propensity for exploratory thought.^

I just don't like the ramifications of underestimating or dumbing things down for children. If everyone here could be honest with themselves for a minute, at what age did people start paying attention to or questioning current events? Whose parents and teachers gave them age-appropriate pieces of the puzzle one-by-one in the most honest way you can explain the world to kids?

Sometimes, I'm inclined to agree with the negative sentiments expressed about Generation Y and the Dot Com Generation. Unfortunate, but there's a ring of truth to it in some cases.

Side note: William should invoke his inner "Hun"! Maybe he'll finally apply pragmatic thought to his processes, and get worthwhile things done.
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

HistoryGirl

I get pessimistic about it too. That lack of faith in a child's ability to understand something...how does one know if they don't try.

DaisyMeRollin

I absolutely agree with you. My six-year-old has come back from school with some golly-whopper of questions already. It's possible to make topics of politics and religion palatable to them, if you try.
"No one is dumb who is curious. The people who don't ask questions remain clueless throughout their lives." - Neil DeGrasse Tyson

TLLK

Quote from: HistoryGirl on July 19, 2014, 07:35:29 PM
I get pessimistic about it too. That lack of faith in a child's ability to understand something...how does one know if they don't try.
This teacher's advice would be if you have the time then you can gain some sense of their background knowledge. Depending upon a child's socio-economic background, geographic location,primary language, culture you may have someone with extensive previous knowledge or be very lacking in it. I live and worked in Los Angeles Co.in Title One (low income) schools At anytime I was about 30 minutes from the ocean, but I did have students who because of their lack of transportation, parents' insecurities about being near the water, and their work schedule would not have been able to take them to the beach. Their first trip was when we visited the tide pools. Prepping them for the trip required me to give a preview of what would happen. My bilingual aide would have to chat with parents to ease their concerns and to remind them about what their student could or could not do there. All this I knew because I'd spent time working in this environment. If the POTUS came to visit and asked one of these students about what they enjoyed about the beach prior to our trip it would be safe to assume that since they lived near the Pacific Ocean that they'd experienced it. He would not have the time to gain knowledge of their background info. If a child then said "I don't know about the beach," I wouldn't expect him to go into a meaningful dialogue if the time didn't allow him to get to know the child.

(Yes I'm off topic too.)

HistoryGirl

That's if he was going to give the child a long lesson, which I wasn't saying was appropriate. Just that there are ways of stating the truth without being dismissive.

Limabeany

Quote from: HistoryGirl on July 19, 2014, 06:57:22 PM
I agree Daisy. The fact that it was such an off hand remark leads me to think he didn't particularly care about the children or those that visited the museum knew the truth. The lack of passion was disappointing, but like I said, not at all surprising.
I too agree.
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

cinrit

IMO, William's response was neither dismissive nor off-hand.  He acknowledged what the child said, and then validated the child's statement, which I believe was appropriate for a 10-year-old who was unknown to him.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.