Diana, Charles and Camilla - love drama part 3

[cinrit]

^^ That's what it seems like to me, too.  It seems to me that Diana was overly and obsessively paranoid about Charles and/or the Royal Family in general.  Her note about Charles planning a car accident with brake failure and head injury points to this.  In my opinion, a note stating that she feared her car would be tampered with would have been believable to some extent.  But to add the details that it would be at Charles' instigation and that the brakes would be faulty, plus the addition of head injury, renders it pure fantasy, in my opinion.  Even if Charles tampering with the brakes of her car were to be within the realm of plausibility, how could Charles control whether she'd have a head injury as opposed to a broken arm or a punctured lung?  Sadly, when I learned about that particular note, I began to question a lot of things I'd never questioned before.

Cindy

I agree with Amabel.  Diana was not rejected by the Royal Family.  According to what I've read here, she wanted a divorce.  And even if she hadn't wanted one, surely she must have realized the the Panorama interview would have serious repercussions.  Except for the landmine issue, I don't remember much humanitarian work after her divorce.  And she'd cut back drastically on her charitable causes after the separation.  I remember thinking at the time that the Royal Family had probably forced her to cut back on her charity work, and I was surprised when I learned she had made the decision herself.  Not that anyone, including Diana, has to spend their lives working on charitable causes.  It's just that saying one thing and doing another has never settled well with me.  Then again, she may have gone on to do great works in her life.

Cindy

double post merged

[amabel]

I think her intetnions were genuine, Cindy.  She siad she wated to cut back so as to concentrate more on a few charities, and she was also giving up the "named patronage" of many charities so that they coudl have a royal figurehead...
and I think she problaby MEANT to concentrate on the 6 charities she kept.  but I think her private life and unhappiness did get in the way.  She was free-er after the separation and divorce, but she was more conscious of hte hostility of the establishement and the RF and I think it upset her.. (plus teh RF could do things like cut her out of hte Court calendar )
Also she had alienated a lot of people in the upper crust circle.. and she was conscious that her boys were growing up and they would inevitably be "Windsors" and spend more time with their father's family.
But while she did do good it was  a bit fitful I think. the AIDS charity said that she woudln't commiit to things and they coudlnt' relly on her.  she dropped out of hte Red X.  According ot Patrick JEphson he had a lot of projects that he thought might be things she could do and would enjoy but he siad that when she realised that she had to "commit seriously" and see them through she tended to back out and there wasn't much work he coudl get for her to do.
The landmines issue was a good thing, and she did make a promising start, but she hadn't been invovled in it all that long and I suppose one might wonder if she would agian have stuck with it.
I tink that she needed help to get her life on track before she could deal with her work life....

^^ That's what it seems like to me, too.  It seems to me that Diana was overly and obsessively paranoid about Charles and/or the Royal Family in general.  Her note about Charles planning a car accident with brake failure and head injury points to this.  Cindy

well I do think that if you really thought stuff liek that, that someone was plotting to kill you,  you would CERTAINLY not go out without secruity or PPOs....but IIRC when talking to some top bod in the Police a yeare or so after her separation Diana said that she had bene going around London with no guards for a year and nothing had happened to her so she felt she was safe enough....

double posts merged

[cinrit]

well I do think that if you really thought stuff liek that, that someone was plotting to kill you,  you would CERTAINLY not go out without secruity or PPOs....but IIRC when talking to some top bod in the Police a yeare or so after her separation Diana said that she had bene going around London with no guards for a year and nothing had happened to her so she felt she was safe enough.... 

Good point about wanting security with you if you really thought there was a plot to kill you.  Did she make the comment about feeling safe before or after she wrote the note?

Cindy

[missing diana]

I honestly don't believe Diana wanted that divorce, she just wanted to expose her husband's shameful behavior. She was a child of divorce and did not want the same for her children.

I very much admire Diana, she took on a role as a young 19 year old and really ran with it. Despite periods where she obviously felt understandably overwhelmed by the paparazzi attention  there was something about Diana where she never seems to cry defeat.  Strength to strenth IMO. 

She said she felt they made a very good team, IMO, his ego just couldn't take it.  Its pretty clear.  All that drivel about her being unstable is ridiculous.  May husbands and wives, support each other or their children, through bouts of depression, eating disorders and significant substance abuse.  Charles really couldn't seem to be bothered, IMO.  Lots of people are needy and frankly she was 19 and inexperienced with men and very much in love with Charles.  Criminal, criminal behavior towards her in the end. 

Had Charles not cheated on her she wouldn't have strayed or been out there on her own for the paps to stalk so easily.  Like Jackie O, her next romance was of prime tabloid interest.   

[cinrit]

I honestly don't believe Diana wanted that divorce, she just wanted to expose her husband's shameful behavior. She was a child of divorce and did not want the same for her children.

I didn't think she wanted a divorce, either.  That's why I said: "According to what I've read here, she wanted a divorce."  I've been told over and over here that she did want a divorce. 

She said she felt they made a very good team, IMO, his ego just couldn't take it.  Its pretty clear.  All that drivel about her being unstable is ridiculous.  May husbands and wives, support each other or their children, through bouts of depression, eating disorders and significant substance abuse. 

Actually, statistics show that men don't normally stay with a wife who's got a substance abuse problem, alcohol problem, eating disorder, etc.   Women whose husbands stick with them are in the minority.  More women stick with their men than men with their women.  This is not to say Charles was right or wrong.  Just stating statistics that I learned when a close relative was in rehab. 

Charles really couldn't seem to be bothered, IMO.  Lots of people are needy and frankly she was 19 and inexperienced with men and very much in love with Charles. 

She was 20 when she married Charles, but she didn't remain 20 for the rest of her life.

Had Charles not cheated on her she wouldn't have strayed or been out there on her own for the paps to stalk so easily.  Like Jackie O, her next romance was of prime tabloid interest.   

That's not exactly so.  Diana had several romances after her marriage was over, and not all of them were highly publicized.  Jackie Kennedy had only one ... and it was a marriage, not a romance.  Jackie's last romance was largely kept under wraps; not many people knew about it or him.

Cindy

[missing diana]

I didn't think she wanted a divorce, either.  That's why I said: "According to what I've read here, she wanted a divorce."  I've been told over and over here that she did want a divorce.  

...I doubt either of us believes everything they read, there were powerful forces out there trying to discredit her. I believe her when she stated for the record, on national TV, that she didn't want a divorce.

Actually, statistics show that men don't normally stay with a wife who's got a substance abuse problem, alcohol problem, eating disorder, etc.   Women whose husbands stick with them are in the minority.  More women stick with their men than men with their women.  This is not to say Charles was right or wrong.  Just stating statistics that I learned when a close relative was in rehab.  

Perhaps this is true when it comes to substance abuse.  However, I know first hand, as someone who specializes in breast cancer and has for 15 years, that many, many husbands stick with their wives through this.   Perhaps it is not the norm for men to stick by women with psychiatric issues, I don't know I don't have any statistics, but having known many women with eating disorders (went to an all girls high school) who didn't adress them until their thirties, their husbands stayed with them.  Just personal experience.  Diana's eating disorder was exacerbated by the UNIQUELY INTENSE PUBLIC GLARE. Say what they want  Princess Grace, The young princesses Elizabeth and Margaret, Elizabeth Taylor....none of them approached the degree of international press and public attention Diana was subject to.   Obviously she sensed something was wrong with her marriage and her husband's commitment to it early on, but she fought on.     I don't think any normal person could withstand the public scrutiny she was subject to, especially without rock solid support, unscathed.  I think she did rather well.  

She was 20 when she married Charles, but she didn't remain 20 for the rest of her life.

No she didn't and nor did she behave like the mouse he and Camilla were hoping she would be. She was much stronger then they anticipated.    

She did not behave like a 20 year old throughout her marriage either and was very mature post divorce, being present at school functions jointly and understanding that the children needed to be shielded from the acrimony.

Diana had several romances after her marriage was over, and not all of them were highly publicized.  Jackie Kennedy had only one ... and it was a marriage, not a romance.  Jackie's last romance was largely kept under wraps; not many people knew about it or him.    

Actually Jackie's last lover was a married financier named Maurice Templesman, widely known in NY and society circles. It was also acknowledged at the time of her death by the press.  

Diana may have had several romances after the breakdown of her marriage.  Many people date after divorce, so they can find the correct next partner. Nothing wrong with that, she wasn't sleazing about as people like to make out.  What I meant by my statement is that  I sincerly doubt Charles worked on that  marriage  as hard as he should have.  He had far more fun shunning her privately and letting his set ridicule her while using her as an asset for the monarchy.  You can't work on a relationship while you are shagging the mistresses.     The depraved valued may exist in "elite and royal" circles but it doesn't make it right.     Frankly there are widespread rumors that Juan Carlos has long cheated on Queen Sofia and that she threatened to leave more then once.    

If the Monarchy wants to survive they should realize that their values need to reflect those of the average person and most people don't think infidelity is ok, just like most people decry Prince Andrew's friendship with Epstein.  There secrets will not longer be as guarded from the press in this new modern age.   The key to transitioning to a modern monarchy IMO is to avoid the public really starting to dislike what they think you represent....


Look I couldn't stand the old rottweiller yet I am willing to complement her dress and appearance and I got attacked for that.  Charles may become King with Camilla as queen but he will never be popular. IMO he could have been with Diana at his side. How proud would people be to see them both, perhaps having survived the rocky patches, there at the Abbey watching William get married.

Charles might be respected but IMO he will never be widely loved.    HMQ and Queen Alexandra are/were beloved.  Camilla still roils the blood in a good few.  Frankly I think the press is too harsh about PC's supposed "eccentricity" and "suitability", he is the one who brought his morals into the national conscious.


Anyway Cindy I have very much enjoyed this discourse!  :flower:  Always learning and informative to exchange thoughts.  I have to get ready to meet friends for the museum and dinner so I am not ignoring any response you may post.  I eagerly await it.  

Have a great day/evening.

[amabel]

I honestly don't believe Diana wanted that divorce, she just wanted to expose her husband's shameful behavior. She was a child of divorce and did not want the same for her children.

Cindy sorry but if she did not wnat a divorce why expose the problem in her marriage?   She did want a divorce,  at first, but then she realised that divorce was basically going to allow Charles to be free to pursue his relationship witht Camilla and marry her and that she herself was going to be out of the privileged environment of hte RF and then she got cold feet.  It seems to me quite absurd to think she coudl remain married to charles when she had outed the break up of their marriage in such a way... The queen was very reluctant to let things end in a divorce but in the end, she felt it was best.  so if Diana had not wanted a divorce, she could at the very leaset have pulled back and not done Panormaam.

 I dont know if that note has ever been "dated".  In fact Im not sure if it has been absoltutely proven that she wrote it.. It was one of Paul B's little titbits.. and Im not sure if it was actually signed..

so I dont know.  Im not sure if the note itself has ever been produced or if Burrell was quoting from memory.


but if she did, as you say it does seem to indicate a soemwhat paranoid frame of mind.  but OTOH, she DID go around with no police protection and seemed very willing to do so and IIRC her conversation with the Met guy was about a year after she separated from C and gave up her PPOs and she told him that she had tried it for a year, nothing bad had happened and she did not wnat to go on with having PPOs.. So I dont see how this gibes with feeling that she was in danger or that Charles was going to arrange an "accident"....
Personaly if I thought taht i was in dagner I would make use of royal PPOs and if for some reason they weren't availabe, I'd hire my own.

She said she felt they made a very good team, IMO, his ego just couldn't take it.  Its pretty clear.  All that drivel about her being unstable is ridiculous.  May husbands and wives, support each other or their children, through bouts of depression, eating disorders and significant substance abuse.  Charles really couldn't seem to be bothered, IMO.  Lots of people are needy and frankly she was 19 and inexperienced with men and very much in love with Charles.  Criminal, criminal behavior towards her in the end. 

Had Charles not cheated on her she wouldn't have strayed or been out there on her own for the paps to stalk so easily.  Like Jackie O, her next romance was of prime tabloid interest.   

Charles DID try and get Diana help to overcome her problems.  She was seeing psychiatrists and therapists from the first month or so of her marraige.  But it was years before she was willing to talk to a therapist about her builimia.. If she refused to make use of thte help that was available I cna't see waht Charles coudl have done ot force her.
Im sorry but she did have psychological problems.. and I t hink that seh wasn't abel to cope with the massive media attention that her life entailed.  Perhaps nobody could have but certianly it was more difficult for her and I think it set off her bulimia and self harming.

And I think that in her last few years, she seemed more unhappy and mixed up than she had been in her first years of marriage.  She wasn't very reliable with her charities.  She was veering wildly between seeking public and press atttenion and running away from it.
and if she had been upset about hte paparazzi stalking her, why did she make such a public dispaly of her romance wiht Dodi?  She had managed ot keep other romances, such as the one with Hoare or with Khan out of hte press for the most part.  Nobody was quite sure waht was happening iwth them.  SHe wanted her affiar wtih Dodi to be public, but unfortunately, you can't jsut use the press one day and then shun them the next....

triple posts merged

[Lady63]

You may not view her as being tossed out but I do.  She did not ask for a divorce, she was told to divorce by the Queen.  If it had been up to Diana imho she would have stayed married, others chose to push her aside.

Regards,
Lady63

[Princesse Grace]

I honestly don't believe Diana wanted that divorce, she just wanted to expose her husband's shameful behavior. She was a child of divorce and did not want the same for her children.

I very much admire Diana, she took on a role as a young 19 year old and really ran with it. Despite periods where she obviously felt understandably overwhelmed by the paparazzi attention  there was something about Diana where she never seems to cry defeat.  Strength to strenth IMO. 

She said she felt they made a very good team, IMO, his ego just couldn't take it.  Its pretty clear.  All that drivel about her being unstable is ridiculous.  May husbands and wives, support each other or their children, through bouts of depression, eating disorders and significant substance abuse.  Charles really couldn't seem to be bothered, IMO.  Lots of people are needy and frankly she was 19 and inexperienced with men and very much in love with Charles.  Criminal, criminal behavior towards her in the end. 

Had Charles not cheated on her she wouldn't have strayed or been out there on her own for the paps to stalk so easily.  Like Jackie O, her next romance was of prime tabloid interest.   

Agree. :clap: :goodpost:

[Mike]

. . . she was not "tossed out" out of the family.  She CHOSE to leave the RF.

Do you agree or disagree Charles "tossed her aside" after Harry was born?

[Hale]

Diana never gave a toss about media advisers. She went her own way, smuggling Martin Bashir and the Panorama crew into Kensington Palace after the staff left.

It was a huge gamble that paid off.

How did it pay off?  

Diana initially did want the divorce, everything was hammered out except the final settlement, but then Diana pulled back.

I think it is too soon to appraise Diana and her legacy.  It will be interesting to see what those generations who weren't around when she married, divorced and died will say.

Should we merge this thread with the ongoing thread about Diana, Charles and Camilla? 

[cinrit]

...I doubt either of us believes everything they read, there were powerful forces out there trying to discredit her. I believe her when she stated for the record, on national TV, that she didn't want a divorce.

Agreed.

Perhaps this is true when it comes to substance abuse.  However, I know first hand, as someone who specializes in breast cancer and has for 15 years, that many, many husbands stick with their wives through this.  

But I didn't include cancer in the mix, though I've heard that it's not unusual for men to leave their wives during a long battle with cancer.  I didn't hear that "many" men leave or that "most" men leave, but that "it's not unusual". 

Perhaps it is not the norm for men to stick by women with psychiatric issues, I don't know I don't have any statistics, but having known many women with eating disorders (went to an all girls high school) who didn't adress them until their thirties, their husbands stayed with them.  Just personal experience.

I think the difference is when the women refuse to get help.  Women are more likely to stay with their men than men with their women under those circumstances.

Diana's eating disorder was exacerbated by the UNIQUELY INTENSE PUBLIC GLARE. Say what they want  Princess Grace, The young princesses Elizabeth and Margaret, Elizabeth Taylor....none of them approached the degree of international press and public attention Diana was subject to.  

I agree with Princesses Elizabeth and Margaret, and even Princess Grace, not being in the public eye as much as Diana.  But from what I've heard and been told by my mother, I'm not so sure about Elizabeth Taylor.

She did not behave like a 20 year old throughout her marriage either and was very mature post divorce, being present at school functions jointly and understanding that the children needed to be shielded from the acrimony.

She did tend to confide too much in William ... more than a child should have to hear about his parents' problem.  Or so it was reported.

Actually Jackie's last lover was a married financier named Maurice Templesman, widely known in NY and society circles. It was also acknowledged at the time of her death by the press.

Yes, he was known about in those circles, but he was not known by the general population.  There were some who knew vaguely that he was a friend, but nothing more ... not until she died and his marriage was made public.

What I meant by my statement is that  I sincerly doubt Charles worked on that  marriage  as hard as he should have.  He had far more fun shunning her privately and letting his set ridicule her while using her as an asset for the monarchy.  You can't work on a relationship while you are shagging the mistresses.     The depraved valued may exist in "elite and royal" circles but it doesn't make it right.     Frankly there are widespread rumors that Juan Carlos has long cheated on Queen Sofia and that she threatened to leave more then once.

I agree that Charles was wrong.  What I don't agree with is that he doesn't regret his actions.  Unless he's got a heart made out of brick and ice water in his veins, I believe he fully regrets the way things went down.  Don't most of us regret mistakes we've made or wrong roads we've traveled?

Look I couldn't stand the old rottweiller yet I am willing to complement her dress and appearance and I got attacked for that.  Charles may become King with Camilla as queen but he will never be popular. IMO he could have been with Diana at his side. How proud would people be to see them both, perhaps having survived the rocky patches, there at the Abbey watching William get married.

Charles was never what I was call "popular".  People considered him strange ... he liked old buildings.  He talked to plants.  He sat in fields and sketched castles.  Personally, I admired all of it, but I think he's always been considered a little bit odd.  As for Camilla ... I'm sure there was a time I disliked her heartily.  But now, years after the fact, she's okay as far as I'm concerned.  I don't dislike her. 

Anyway Cindy I have very much enjoyed this discourse!  :flower:  Always learning and informative to exchange thoughts.  I have to get ready to meet friends for the museum and dinner so I am not ignoring any response you may post.  I eagerly await it.  

Thanks, missing diana.  I've enjoyed it, too.  I hope you've enjoyed dinner with your friends!  :)

Cindy sorry but if she did not wnat a divorce why expose the problem in her marriage?

I think she had the idea that a divorce couldn't and wouldn't ever happen, no matter what she did or said.  Perhaps at one time she did want one and was told it was impossible.  I don't think she believed the Panorama interview would bring her closer to Charles, either, nor do I think she believed it would break up his relationship with Camilla.  I think she did it to get even with him.  By the time of that interview, it was like the marriage had crumbled down to a war of words.  It's hard to believe that Diana thought she could win that war, but I believe she thought exactly that, based on her popularity.  Had she been married to anyone but the Prince of Wales, I think she could have won.  I think she underestimated the Queen, who had had a tendency previously to stay out of the marriage.  The old saying "you can't fight City Hall" comes to mind, and though it sounds harsh, I think that's exactly what happened ... she thought she could fight City Hall.

Cindy

[cinrit]

Should we merge this thread with the ongoing thread about Diana, Charles and Camilla? 

Thanks, Hale.  I see it heading that way ...

Cindy

[Bensgal]

Cindy, I'm in agreement with your post #43 especially the point made about Diana going public with the marriage problems. Once she aired the problems,  on TV and by book, then combine this with Charle's actions the Queen was left without any choice but to request them to divorce whether either party wanted it or not. And I don't believe she was tossed out. The Queen didn't have much "wiggle" room. 

[amabel]

sorry Cindy (having trouble witht the quotes thing) but I think she DID want a divorce but changed her mind.  She knew it was supposed to be impossible, but she wanated out of the marriage on her own terms.  She wanted to be free to find another man, to live her life as she pleased.  but then when she took a step (Morton) that was I tink a confused gesture partly lashing out at Ch and partly working towards a divorce, she got cold feet and realised that divorce also meant "out of hte RF" and the privileged environment, etc she got scared and wanted to pull back.  But seh then  (as usual with Di) went the other way, lashing out at C again in Panorama which pushed the queen to say enough  is enough, and then the divorce happened whether seh liked it or not.  And she was savvy enough to consult with Snowdon and Mark PHillips who had also had divorces from Royals and they told her to make sure she got a good financial settlement....
So she was smart enough in many ways, in makng sure she got waht she wanted... but I think  that losing her marraige was still soemthign that traumatised her...
I dont feel that she seemed very together after it, perhaps given time she wold have found a way to live, but seh had lived nearly all her adult life in teh Royal set up and I think she found it hard to adjust...
I dont feel that she was particularly mature as regards the children.  She did try to protect tehm from the fall out but this is after seh's attacked their fathter publicly, and said he was a bad father etc.  she had to appear with him and them in public sometimes, that wasn't really necessarily her choice...

. . . she was not "tossed out" out of the family.  She CHOSE to leave the RF.

Do you agree or disagree Charles "tossed her aside" after Harry was born?

as I've said many times Mike that was "her stroy".. that she chose ot put out in the media.  it does not follow that it is the truth.

double posts merged

[sandy]

sorry Cindy (having trouble witht the quotes thing) but I think she DID want a divorce but changed her mind.  She knew it was supposed to be impossible, but she wanated out of the marriage on her own terms.  She wanted to be free to find another man, to live her life as she pleased.  but then when she took a step (Morton) that was I tink a confused gesture partly lashing out at Ch and partly working towards a divorce, she got cold feet and realised that divorce also meant "out of hte RF" and the privileged environment, etc she got scared and wanted to pull back.  But seh then  (as usual with Di) went the other way, lashing out at C again in Panorama which pushed the queen to say enough  is enough, and then the divorce happened whether seh liked it or not.  And she was savvy enough to consult with Snowdon and Mark PHillips who had also had divorces from Royals and they told her to make sure she got a good financial settlement....
So she was smart enough in many ways, in makng sure she got waht she wanted... but I think  that losing her marraige was still soemthign that traumatised her...
I dont feel that she seemed very together after it, perhaps given time she wold have found a way to live, but seh had lived nearly all her adult life in teh Royal set up and I think she found it hard to adjust...
I dont feel that she was particularly mature as regards the children.  She did try to protect tehm from the fall out but this is after seh's attacked their fathter publicly, and said he was a bad father etc.  she had to appear with him and them in public sometimes, that wasn't really necessarily her choice...

But what about Charles publicly saying he never loved their mother! And THAT didn't bother the boys I suppose. Diana said she went there to reassure them thanks to Dad's confession to his authorized biographer.

And I have news. Diana NEVER said Charles was a bad father. When? How? She publicly said he was a good father to the boys. And she said she LOVED  him.

I'd have to say the shoe was on the other foot. CHARLES said he never loved Diana and his parents "FORCED him" to marry her. I suppose that's complimentary to the mother of his sons and I would think this was the most hurtful thing he could say about Diana publicly. She was an incubator "forced on him" by his parents. Shameful.

He also named his mistress and said he would continue to see her which must have thrilled Diana to no end.

BTW Diana was already from a privileged environment--she had a title of her own before she married into the RF.

I honestly don't believe Diana wanted that divorce, she just wanted to expose her husband's shameful behavior. She was a child of divorce and did not want the same for her children.

I didn't think she wanted a divorce, either.  That's why I said: "According to what I've read here, she wanted a divorce."  I've been told over and over here that she did want a divorce. 

She said she felt they made a very good team, IMO, his ego just couldn't take it.  Its pretty clear.  All that drivel about her being unstable is ridiculous.  May husbands and wives, support each other or their children, through bouts of depression, eating disorders and significant substance abuse.

Actually, statistics show that men don't normally stay with a wife who's got a substance abuse problem, alcohol problem, eating disorder, etc.   Women whose husbands stick with them are in the minority.  More women stick with their men than men with their women.  This is not to say Charles was right or wrong.  Just stating statistics that I learned when a close relative was in rehab. 

Charles really couldn't seem to be bothered, IMO.  Lots of people are needy and frankly she was 19 and inexperienced with men and very much in love with Charles.

She was 20 when she married Charles, but she didn't remain 20 for the rest of her life.

Had Charles not cheated on her she wouldn't have strayed or been out there on her own for the paps to stalk so easily.  Like Jackie O, her next romance was of prime tabloid interest.   

That's not exactly so.  Diana had several romances after her marriage was over, and not all of them were highly publicized.  Jackie Kennedy had only one ... and it was a marriage, not a romance.  Jackie's last romance was largely kept under wraps; not many people knew about it or him.

Cindy

The Templesman Romance was not kept under wraps. Jackie was seen in public with him and it was well known. I agree with Missing Diana re: her posts.

double posts merged

[cinrit]

But what about Charles publicly saying he never loved their mother! And THAT didn't bother the boys I suppose. Diana said she went there to reassure them thanks to Dad's confession to his authorized biographer.

Sandy, I'm sure that William and Harry know that their parents' divorce had nothing to do with them.  I'm sure they love their parents equally.  Why do you want to believe that they would hold a grudge against their father?  Why would you want them to be unhappy, even if only in your mind?  The boys seem to love their father by everything we've seen and heard.  They loved their mother and honor her memory.  This is how it should be.  Nothing positive can come from wishing a rift between Charles and his children.

The Templesman Romance was not kept under wraps. Jackie was seen in public with him and it was well known. I agree with Missing Diana re: her posts.

It wasn't kept "under wraps", but it wasn't publicized, either.  If you followed them closely, then yes, you would have known about it.  But to the general public, it was not.  It was a surprise to many who found out that he was married, or even that she was seeing anyone romantically.

Cindy

[sandy]

I am not talking about "grudges". This post was answered within the context of amabel's (see quote above mine for its context). I was in fact refuting some of her charges against Diana. She never said publicly Charles was a "bad father." This is not true. But I was saying Charles really made some scathing remarks about her himself.

Templesman and Jackie WERE pictured in the press plus her later biographers talked about the romance. I read he was married but estranged from his wife.  

[cinrit]

I am not talking about "grudges". This post was answered within the context of amabel's (see quote above mine for its context). I was in fact refuting some of her charges against Diana. She never said publicly Charles was a "bad father." This is not true. But I was saying Charles really made some scathing remarks about her himself.

I know what you were responding to.  This is the part of your post that I was responding to:

But what about Charles publicly saying he never loved their mother! And THAT didn't bother the boys I suppose.

If I misinterpreted your intent, I apologize.  But it does read like you think William and Harry should hold some sort of grudge against Charles for saying that he'd never loved their mother.  I'm sure they heard things that both parents said about each other.  They look happy and well-adjusted, so I'm hoping that whatever they heard and was hurt over their parents saying, is in their past and they've healed enough to go forward with their lives without re-living the divorce over and over in their minds.

Cindy

[sandy]

You keep saying "I think this or that." Only I know what I meant by the post and explained it. I didn't mention the word "grudge". As I said I was refuting still more accusations against Diana. Diana did say she went to the boys school to reassure them that "Papa and Mummy loved each other."  I don't think it (Charles saying he never loved Diana) was exactly the nicest thing for the boys to hear at that time. But once again I am not talking about grudges just within the context of the time period when Charles made those comments about Diana. Again, it was within the context of Amabel's post and her charges that Diana did something "at the time" not even one month later but "at the time." I hope this clarifies things for you Cindy.

If Diana didn't go to reassure them then Diana would be complained against for "not caring enough" to explain things to the boys. Diana can't win with some.

I don't get it when Diana is criticized it's OK when something bad is pointed out about Charles there is accusations about the "boys reliving the divorce." ISn't it reliving the divorce to make unfair allegations about Diana? Diana never publicly spoke that Charles was a bad father like Amabel said. This is so not true. She didn't say Charles was a "bad father" to MOrton, to Settelen or to Bashir. She did say Charles was a good father to the boys. It was the way that Charles treated HER that rankled.

It's just bad bad Diana for speaking out and being rude to Charles. NOthing about CHarles being rude to her.

As far as how happy and well adjusted Wils and Harry are is subject to speculation. But IMO  there is a deep hole in their lives without their mother around.  I think they won't just forget Diana.  I think a lot of Harry's acting out for instance came because he missed his mother and was devastated by her not being around. 

[cinrit]

It's just bad bad Diana for speaking out and being rude to Charles. NOthing about CHarles being rude to her.

I have not read yet anyone denying that Charles did some pretty rotten things to Diana.

As far as how happy and well adjusted Wils and Harry are is subject to speculation. But IMO  there is a deep hole in their lives without their mother around.  I think they won't just forget Diana.  I think a lot of Harry's acting out for instance came because he missed his mother and was devastated by her not being around. 

You might be right about Harry.  Who knows?  Neither of us know him, and neither of us is a psychologist ... well, I'm not, anyway.  I'm sure both William and Harry miss their mother.  But it is not the fault of Charles that they do. 

Cindy

[Bensgal]

I think the boys have handled their parents' marriage, divorce, interviews, books, trash talk & their mother's death etc., etc. much better than many of the general public. As far as Harry, his actions may be nothing more then a typical rebellious teen-ager/young adult. I've known kids to do much worse who've lived in stable homes with both parents. Just my opinion.

[dianab]

. . . she was not "tossed out" out of the family.  She CHOSE to leave the RF.

Do you agree or disagree Charles "tossed her aside" after Harry was born?

as I've said many times Mike that was "her stroy".. that she chose ot put out in the media.  it does not follow that it is the truth.

edit

If Charles is such truthful man, why he dont cited Ms Jenkings (their affair in early 1990s)?
Only ONE of her charities had trouble with her.Why you dissmissed the most of them?
The doctors he called werent for eating disorder, the Sarah'doctor helped Diana in a very little time, why you thinks that happened? This doctor who truly know Diana. contrary to you, have a version of facts well different than you claims re: about Diana have psychological problems. In first session he saw the bulimia of Diana was related to her problems with HER HUSBAND (CHARLES) and enviromment she was living.

The press ALWAYS called Charles of bad father, since the 1980s. In Majorca he left behind Diana & boys in Spain, for joined Camilla. Harry also had a operation in mid-1980s, and Charles choiced the Polo. In early 1990s in accident of William, his behavior talked loads for media. Royal watchers commented when he was view with the boys in Highgrove, he seems wanted be in any other place.

About after the divorce:
All of her inner circle said after the divorce she could finally could be herself, away of restrictions. Her auction was a SUCCESS & she helped highlight the land mines cause, this cause won the Nobel (1998), the winner thank Diana in her speech.

She received an  humanitarian award in Italy (1996). If certain persons stop of held grudges for Diana. They would can see, same with all problems and pressures she had in her SHORT life,  editIn her short life SHE MAKE SOME BIG DIFFERENCES IN THE WORLD.

Hardly a thing that a unstable woman would can.
And hardly a thing could be told about the born-royals.

And she was talking with Tony Blair since 1995/6

I dont feel that she was particularly mature as regards the children.  She did try to protect tehm from the fall out but this is after seh's attacked their fathter publicly, and said he was a bad father etc.  she had to appear with him and them in public sometimes, that wasn't really necessarily her choice...

edit, during years, years and years William and Harry WITNESSed the private pain of their mother, and during the war of Waleses, Harry attacked his father, beating on with his fists and shouting, ' I hate you, I hate you, you make mummy cry' ...  (Bradford book). You also may have forget William console his mother, pass tissues for her wipe her tears. In Her New Life by Morton, William is quoted saying: why papa dont care for mummy?

triple posts merged

[cinrit]

 quote edited because original post edited

response edited because quote was edited.

The doctors he called werent for eating disorder, the Sarah'doctor helped Diana in a very little time, why you thinks that happened? This doctor who truly know Diana. contrary to you, have a version of facts well different than you claims re: about Diana have psychological problems. In first session he saw the bulimia of Diana was related to her problems with HER HUSBAND (CHARLES) and enviromment she was living.

Did the doctor say this?  If so, never trust or believe fully the word of a doctor who speaks to others about his patient(s).  It's unethical and may be illegal.

edit because origina post edited during years, years and years William and Harry WITNESSed the private pain of their mother, and during the war of Waleses, Harry attacked his father, beating on with his fists and shouting, ' I hate you, I hate you, you make mummy cry' ...  (Bradford book). You also may have forget William console his mother, pass tissues for her wipe her tears. In Her New Life by Morton, William is quoted saying: why papa dont care for mummy?

You know, the children witnessed the pain of both parents.  Diana cried, so Diana was the one consoled.  But neither Charles nor Diana got out of the marriage unscathed.  Bad marriages hurt both people ... and separation, no matter who wants it, is traumatic for both.  

Diana was THE MOST FAMOUS WOMAN IN THE WORLD,

No need to shout. :)

edit because original post removed therefore response edited.
Cindy

[sandy]

Yes Cindy the doctor said this. Dr. Lipsedge rwho treated Diana's bulimia eported that Diana's bulimia was a result of her stressful marriage. Check the Bradford Book. BTW Lipsedge also treated Sarah Spencer's anorexia. The man is reputable and this is all documentd and known. Diana also got the bulimia under control.

edit I think Charles' sloppy morality made it diffucult for him to be a real husband to Diana. He had many opportunities to start afresh and dump Camilla but never took these opportunities.