The War Of The Wales Years & Behaviour Of All Those Involved

[sandy]

He still got to marry the mistress and has the heirs.

[TLLK]

^Probably, but it didn't. He thought he could live the way he wanted and it promptly blew up in his face.

Yes it did.

[HistoryGirl]

He still got to marry the mistress and has the heirs.

Just a question, not at all trying to be confrontational or argumentative, but do you begrudge him his happiness?

[Trudie]

Well lets see Historygirl No one has begrudged Charles his happiness especially his family who allowed him to marry Camilla which was not the case with Edward VIII not only was the RF begrudging him his happiness he was exiled for the rest of his life.

[HistoryGirl]

^I was asking sandy in particular. Obviously his family clearly love and want him to be happy. Especially since they didn't particularly care for his ex wife either.

[TLLK]

^^^IMO the two situations are different in that Edward VIII's decision came when the country was still recovering from the Great Depression and instability in Europe was already a concern. The nation was struggling during that time period. His visit to Nazi Germany didn't help his position back home and it is likely that the government was going to reject any request from the BRF that would allow him to settle in the UK post-WWII.

IMO Charles and Diana's divorce while sad was not going to affect the nation in the same way. Charles' popularity did plummet fter the divorce and her death, but the nation was not in danger of being destabilized.

[sandy]

TLK, Charles got permission to marry Camilla and keep his place on the throne.  Edward DID get to visit his mother but Wallis had to stay home.

There was and is a line of succession so the nation back then was not in danger. Edward had a brother ready to take over.

Charles did not lose anything and had nothing really to lose. He had his cake and ate it too.


History GirlI have seen comments saying that Charles is happy as if the main goal in the world is to make this man happy? Why? Diana had a miserable time with the man and his seeking happiness hurt some people. Actually Charles has been helping himself to happiness for years.  And how do you know ALL members of the family did not care for his ex wife? Princess Michael and others did like Diana, believe it or not. Oh and BTW William and Harry are members of the family and they love their mother. So how can you make such statements about Charles family not liking his ex. Aren't Will and Harry in the family too? And she was the mother of two of the Queen's grandchildren.  I don't think actually the Queen is particularly fond of Camilla but puts up with her for Charles' sake and for family peace. The Queen Mother did not receive Camilla after her divorce from APB and even told Charles to wait until after she died before he married Camilla. Some love!

There are rumors that Charles is not that kindly disposed to his own siblings and vice versa. Andrew is said to be at odds with him.

It is sad that Selfish Charles must be made happy at all costs --he got the heirs and got his cake and ate it too. And it is hard for his family to express dislike to someone who is dead and buried.

[HistoryGirl]

Well yeah I meant they disliked her when alive. So you do? It's not necessary for him to be happy for me since i dont know him personally; but then again that's also the reason why I don't begrudge him his happiness either.

[sandy]

I see plenty of comments about how wonderful it is for Charles to be happy, etc etc. I don't know why people are so concerned that this selfish man must be made happy.

Charles has helped himself to happiness for many years. At other's expense. Charles does not care if people " begrudge him happiness."

He still chose Diana over Camilla to marry and have his royal children. If Diana had not complained and turned a blind eye and she could ignore his put downs, Camilla would still be the mistress.

[HistoryGirl]

Yeah probably. But a lot of royals have had mistresses, even some of the most influential. Is it something with Charles in particular you find annoying? Just curious.

[sandy]

I am expressing an opinion.  If you read my posts you will see the reasons.  I know Charles practically walks on water with some and the man must be made happy.

I could ask the same of those who snipe at Diana. And be just curious too.

[HistoryGirl]

Alright then sorry for asking.

[DaisyMeRollin]

There are rumors that Charles is not that kindly disposed to his own siblings and vice versa. Andrew is said to be at odds with him.

To be fair, Andy is strong-arming his daughters into a role that is adverse to Charles's wish for a more streamlined monarchy. Two sides of the coin.

Neither Charles nor Andy are shining beacons of morality. I still don't know why people expect any of them to be the incarnate of the values of the United Kingdom. It think it's a little naive to think them anything but human.

[TLLK]

TLK, Charles got permission to marry Camilla and keep his place on the throne.  Edward DID get to visit his mother but Wallis had to stay home.

There was and is a line of succession so the nation back then was not in danger. Edward had a brother ready to take over.

Charles did not lose anything and had nothing really to lose. He had his cake and ate it too.


History GirlI have seen comments saying that Charles is happy as if the main goal in the world is to make this man happy? Why? Diana had a miserable time with the man and his seeking happiness hurt some people. Actually Charles has been helping himself to happiness for years.  And how do you know ALL members of the family did not care for his ex wife? Princess Michael and others did like Diana, believe it or not. Oh and BTW William and Harry are members of the family and they love their mother. So how can you make such statements about Charles family not liking his ex. Aren't Will and Harry in the family too? And she was the mother of two of the Queen's grandchildren.  I don't think actually the Queen is particularly fond of Camilla but puts up with her for Charles' sake and for family peace. The Queen Mother did not receive Camilla after her divorce from APB and even told Charles to wait until after she died before he married Camilla. Some love!

There are rumors that Charles is not that kindly disposed to his own siblings and vice versa. Andrew is said to be at odds with him.

It is sad that Selfish Charles must be made happy at all costs --he got the heirs and got his cake and ate it too. And it is hard for his family to express dislike to someone who is dead and buried.

Sorry I can't find the two situation to be similar as Edward was consorting with the nation's enemy, the economy was still trying to recover from WWI and the Great Depression. Yes there was an heir, but an unprepared one where discussion of skipping Bertie in favor of his younger brothers was discussed.  Edward's actions were seen to be much worse than a married couple divorcing.

Charles behaved badly. It's been stated over and over, but I find this comparison to his great-uncle to be very far-fetched IMHO.

[sandy]

Had he given up Wallis, he would have stayed King.  He probably could have kept Wallis as a mistress keeping her role low key and still become King.The photos with Hitler came after his marriage to Wallis.

Everybody close up  in the line of succession must be prepared. Before George VI took over, there were several second sons who had to take on the job of King.

I don't see anything far fetched. Charles got away with marrying a divorced woman unlike his great uncle. And Charles himself was divorced from his first wife. Charles like his great uncle liked the company of married women. Charles was selfish enough to court a teenaged girl so he could get heirs even knowing he preferred someone else.
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 12:19:02 AM

There are rumors that Charles is not that kindly disposed to his own siblings and vice versa. Andrew is said to be at odds with him.

To be fair, Andy is strong-arming his daughters into a role that is adverse to Charles's wish for a more streamlined monarchy. Two sides of the coin.

Neither Charles nor Andy are shining beacons of morality. I still don't know why people expect any of them to be the incarnate of the values of the United Kingdom. It think it's a little naive to think them anything but human.

Andrew knows he can't Strong Arm anybody. Charles does as he please. Charles is foolish to think he can depend on his work shy elder son and Daughter in law to do much of the work. One can't have a streamlined monarchy with essentially lazy people.

At least Andrew never had his friends bad mouth his ex wife. And he certainly could have considering...

[cate1949]

Charles affairs with married women and their husbands acquiescence to those affairs is well documented. 

I do think this is relevant to the discussion because it goes to his sense of expectations - he learned from those affairs and the husbands complicity in those affairs that he was "special" and normal rules did not apply to him.  That sense would have been brought into his marriage to Diana and would have informed his behavior.

I'd just like to also object to the idea that Diana had psychological problems which were hereditary - she may have - but we do not know nor is the state of understanding about the role of heredity in mental disorders that advanced. 
that we can say with any surety that her problems were inherited.  I know there are royal commentators from the family who do make those assertions - but I do not think it is a reasonable thing to say.  IMHO.

Back to Charles - it is often said that his family are a bit emotionally repressed - someone who would express their feelings like Diana would make a person who is emotionally repressed very uncomfortable - if you cannot deal with your own feelings you certainly cannot handle someone elses. 
 

[TLLK]

Had he given up Wallis, he would have stayed King.  He probably could have kept Wallis as a mistress keeping her role low key and still become King.The photos with Hitler came after his marriage to Wallis.

Everybody close up  in the line of succession must be prepared. Before George VI took over, there were several second sons who had to take on the job of King.

I don't see anything far fetched. Charles got away with marrying a divorced woman unlike his great uncle. And Charles himself was divorced from his first wife. Charles like his great uncle liked the company of married women. Charles was selfish enough to court a teenaged girl so he could get heirs even knowing he preferred someone else.
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 12:19:02 AM

There are rumors that Charles is not that kindly disposed to his own siblings and vice versa. Andrew is said to be at odds with him.

To be fair, Andy is strong-arming his daughters into a role that is adverse to Charles's wish for a more streamlined monarchy. Two sides of the coin.

Neither Charles nor Andy are shining beacons of morality. I still don't know why people expect any of them to be the incarnate of the values of the United Kingdom. It think it's a little naive to think them anything but human.

Andrew knows he can't Strong Arm anybody. Charles does as he please. Charles is foolish to think he can depend on his work shy elder son and Daughter in law to do much of the work. One can't have a streamlined monarchy with essentially lazy people.

At least Andrew never had his friends bad mouth his ex wife. And he certainly could have considering...

Yes the photos came afterward which would have not made his family or the government look kindly upon his return to the UK. This is part of the reason he and Wallis were sent to the Caribbean.

Prepared to some extent but not the the length that Edward was and there were concerns about Bertie's ability to speak in public which was an expectation of the role. Obviously history has shown that George VI was a capable monarch.

As for the future of the BRF once Charles ascends to the throne, his mother's cousins will likely "retire." His siblings are still available and he'll have two sons and possibly more than one daughter-in-law to take on the duties. It will be his reign and he can choose who he wishes to make up his core team just as his mother does now. :thumbsup:

[amabel]

^Probably, but it didn't. He thought he could live the way he wanted and it promptly blew up in his face.

I don't believe that was really the case.  I don't beelive that he intented to continue his affair with Camilla. I think that he hoped that he and Di would work out, albeit I think that during their engagement he was beginning to have some doubts that he had made the right choice, but once they were engaged it was almost imposislbe ot get out of it.  And he hoped the marriage would work... but knew that he still cared a lot for Camilla and probably she would be the one he loved most.  however I think that he just kept in touch wit her a bit during the first few years, because he knew Diana would not accept his being good friends with hr... and as time went by and he realised that he and Di were a hopeless case, he did then return to her bed.. but I can't see what else he was supposed to do.  he and Diana were unhappy and prorlbaby the physical side of their marriage was not good esp since she was ill.  Why would she want him to be physically intimate wit her when she got on badly with him and she was ill?  He left her alone, and went back to Cam and when Di got some control over her bulimia she too went out and found herself a lover.  it wasn't' a perfect solution and I think that Charles was aware of the risks, but he hoped they would get by, and that Diana would be aware that if she "outed" his affair, there was a chance that her own affair would be made public as well.... However if she had remained discreet, while there was gossip and speculation, and the phone calls, being made public, it was still possible to "stare the media down" and ignore the gossip and I think that would have been far better for all concerned.  I had my doubts about his marrying Camilla, but I think that when he and Di divorced it was probably inevitable  and she's proved OK as Duchess of Cornwall and I think the family get on reasonably well with her, including the boys. He's hardly the first POW to have an extra marital affair and I think he did try and keep it discreet, it was largely owing ot modern technology and Di's outing the affair that ti really became public...
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 07:36:33 AM

I'd just like to also object to the idea that Diana had psychological problems which were hereditary - she may have - but we do not know nor is the state of understanding about the role of heredity in mental disorders that advanced. 
that we can say with any surety that her problems were inherited.  .

Back to 

Regardless of whether the problems are hereditary or not, I think she certainly had problems.  I think that she was ver needy, she was immature at the time of her marriage and sicne she did her growing up in a  very "bubble like" environment, she didn't mature very steadily. I think she was hard to live with and any man would have found it difficult esp someone who by his position In life is bound to be somewhat spoiled. I think that he DID try to look after her, and to understand her but he found ti difficult.  She was very different ot him, and very much younger.  Other men who loved her, even when she was older, also found her "drama queen" ways a bit hard to cope with. Ther are issues like her pushing her stepmother, allegedly throwing herself down the stairs to frighten Charles while Pregnant..  these things are either the result of her being very selfish or having same problems.  I don't believe she was "mad" or "bad" but she wasn't an angel and she did have problems that made her hard to cope with at close quarters. and she and C were just too different to fit well together.  As for his "attitude to men's' wives" I don't think he was all that differnet to many men of the upper classes who felt that (while divorce is now easily available) that it was necessary to break up one's marriage over an affair..

[HistoryGirl]

^Yeah he thought that he could remain married and still have emotional attachments with another woman and probably thought he could see her every once in a while and be fine but it didn't turn out like that. As for the cheating, it's entirely your prerogative to either feel like it's okay or not.

[amabel]

but you cant' just turn off your emotions like that.  People do still sometimes carry a torch for an old lover, and I think that Charles did feel that he would always be friends with Camilla, and he lived quite close to her and he needed to see her at times.. and she was part of the Royal social circle so it was likely that they would meet at times.
Di knew that. as for the cheating, I  think, given that they couldn't divorce, and had made a mistake in marrying, what were they supposed to do?  Di's fans seem to think it was OK for her to take lovers because her marriage had failed.  Why wasn't it all right for Charles to do so?

[HistoryGirl]

I'm not sure, you'll have to ask them cause the double standard confuses me too.  I think cheating is disgusting no matter what's going on, but that's because honor and respect are things that I demand from a partner, but everyone's different so it's really not my place to villainize anyone. I'm also big on personal responsibility so if you choose to marry you should know and accept what it entails. Of course, if both parties are ok with seeing other people while married like APB and Camilla that does change things from their perspective. Still not cool to sleep with another woman's husband if she's not ok with it though.

[amabel]

I think that Andrew and Camilla had a fairly good relationship in some ways but he was a real "woman chaser" and was not faithful and she got tired of it after a while and took up with Charles and began to find him a more congenial companion.  As time went by I think that Andrew wanted to marry his second wife and would have asked for a divorce, but by then he didn't want to expose Cam to the gossip if he left her, and there were so many rumors that she and Charles were lovers.  So he waited till Charles spoke about the affair and then he went for a divorce. once they divorced however I think they've remained good friends, because they were in love, at the first and while their marriage hasn't' lasted, their friendly relationsnip has...
and of course Charles knew what "marriage entailed"... He's not an idiot.  I think that he was  a bit unsure that he and Di were going to work out but once he and she had gotten engaged, that was it.. it was impossible to get out of it. and when they married, it as supposed to be absolutely impossible for them to divorce.  Di knew that just as well.. but she chose to act  in such a way that she was in essence ending the marriage.
But I think that left to himself Charles would have gone on in the marriage all his life, and looked the other way if Diana had lovers.  he would have remained with Camilla in private... It was not a perfect solution but I think that it would have kept the RF from scandal, kept the marriage intact and caused less stress to Will and harry and its more than likely that Diana would not have died young.
And Di was the one who seems to have "Not cared" if the wives of her admirers didn't like her relationships with them. I think that Mrs hoare didn't mind Olivier H having lovers if he kept the marriage intact and kept the women away from home.  When he got too involved with Diana she told him to finis it.. He did but Di kept pursuing him with phone calls.
With Will Carling, Diana flirted iwht him. some say had an affair with him, and clearly didn't care that HIS wife was not too happy with their relationship.  IIRC from Andrew Morton's' book, he said that Di still had a phone relationship with Will C, even when she was starting to see Hasnat Khan.

[HistoryGirl]

Knowing what a marriage entails isn't about intelligence it's about knowing your emotions and yourself and if you're still "preferring" someone else you probably shouldn't be getting married so that's no excuse for hurting someone else. It happened and people have moved on and he seems happy so I guess it is what it is. As far as Diana's affairs, I can't comment since this thread isn't about her and that's been discussed elsewhere

[sandy]

Charles affairs with married women and their husbands acquiescence to those affairs is well documented. 

I do think this is relevant to the discussion because it goes to his sense of expectations - he learned from those affairs and the husbands complicity in those affairs that he was "special" and normal rules did not apply to him.  That sense would have been brought into his marriage to Diana and would have informed his behavior.

I'd just like to also object to the idea that Diana had psychological problems which were hereditary - she may have - but we do not know nor is the state of understanding about the role of heredity in mental disorders that advanced. 
that we can say with any surety that her problems were inherited.  I know there are royal commentators from the family who do make those assertions - but I do not think it is a reasonable thing to say.  IMHO.

Back to Charles - it is often said that his family are a bit emotionally repressed - someone who would express their feelings like Diana would make a person who is emotionally repressed very uncomfortable - if you cannot deal with your own feelings you certainly cannot handle someone elses. 
 

I'd like to point out that the "mental illness" of Diana spin comes from Charles sympathizers.  She had an eating disorder that she got under control.
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 01:55:28 PM

I think that Andrew and Camilla had a fairly good relationship in some ways but he was a real "woman chaser" and was not faithful and she got tired of it after a while and took up with Charles and began to find him a more congenial companion.  As time went by I think that Andrew wanted to marry his second wife and would have asked for a divorce, but by then he didn't want to expose Cam to the gossip if he left her, and there were so many rumors that she and Charles were lovers.  So he waited till Charles spoke about the affair and then he went for a divorce. once they divorced however I think they've remained good friends, because they were in love, at the first and while their marriage hasn't' lasted, their friendly relationsnip has...
and of course Charles knew what "marriage entailed"... He's not an idiot.  I think that he was  a bit unsure that he and Di were going to work out but once he and she had gotten engaged, that was it.. it was impossible to get out of it. and when they married, it as supposed to be absolutely impossible for them to divorce.  Di knew that just as well.. but she chose to act  in such a way that she was in essence ending the marriage.
But I think that left to himself Charles would have gone on in the marriage all his life, and looked the other way if Diana had lovers.  he would have remained with Camilla in private... It was not a perfect solution but I think that it would have kept the RF from scandal, kept the marriage intact and caused less stress to Will and harry and its more than likely that Diana would not have died young.
And Di was the one who seems to have "Not cared" if the wives of her admirers didn't like her relationships with them. I think that Mrs hoare didn't mind Olivier H having lovers if he kept the marriage intact and kept the women away from home.  When he got too involved with Diana she told him to finis it.. He did but Di kept pursuing him with phone calls.
With Will Carling, Diana flirted iwht him. some say had an affair with him, and clearly didn't care that HIS wife was not too happy with their relationship.  IIRC from Andrew Morton's' book, he said that Di still had a phone relationship with Will C, even when she was starting to see Hasnat Khan.

Camilla should not have been "surprised." She and APB cheated on each other while they were dating.

I do think that the Diana-Carling references are off topic since this is about Charles. It is off topic.

Well Charles was not totally repelled by his bride, they conceived two children within the first three years. Charles wanted heirs IMO and got them. Why else would he have courted a teenager? Young, fertile, and blue blooded.
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 01:57:01 PM

but you cant' just turn off your emotions like that.  People do still sometimes carry a torch for an old lover, and I think that Charles did feel that he would always be friends with Camilla, and he lived quite close to her and he needed to see her at times.. and she was part of the Royal social circle so it was likely that they would meet at times.
Di knew that. as for the cheating, I  think, given that they couldn't divorce, and had made a mistake in marrying, what were they supposed to do?  Di's fans seem to think it was OK for her to take lovers because her marriage had failed.  Why wasn't it all right for Charles to do so?

Charles came into the marriage preferring his mistress. Diana had no past. It was not all right for Charles to do what he did-even before he courted Diana.


Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 01:58:06 PM

^Probably, but it didn't. He thought he could live the way he wanted and it promptly blew up in his face.

I don't believe that was really the case.  I don't beelive that he intented to continue his affair with Camilla. I think that he hoped that he and Di would work out, albeit I think that during their engagement he was beginning to have some doubts that he had made the right choice, but once they were engaged it was almost imposislbe ot get out of it.  And he hoped the marriage would work... but knew that he still cared a lot for Camilla and probably she would be the one he loved most.  however I think that he just kept in touch wit her a bit during the first few years, because he knew Diana would not accept his being good friends with hr... and as time went by and he realised that he and Di were a hopeless case, he did then return to her bed.. but I can't see what else he was supposed to do.  he and Diana were unhappy and prorlbaby the physical side of their marriage was not good esp since she was ill.  Why would she want him to be physically intimate wit her when she got on badly with him and she was ill?  He left her alone, and went back to Cam and when Di got some control over her bulimia she too went out and found herself a lover.  it wasn't' a perfect solution and I think that Charles was aware of the risks, but he hoped they would get by, and that Diana would be aware that if she "outed" his affair, there was a chance that her own affair would be made public as well.... However if she had remained discreet, while there was gossip and speculation, and the phone calls, being made public, it was still possible to "stare the media down" and ignore the gossip and I think that would have been far better for all concerned.  I had my doubts about his marrying Camilla, but I think that when he and Di divorced it was probably inevitable  and she's proved OK as Duchess of Cornwall and I think the family get on reasonably well with her, including the boys. He's hardly the first POW to have an extra marital affair and I think he did try and keep it discreet, it was largely owing ot modern technology and Di's outing the affair that ti really became public...
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 07:36:33 AM

I'd just like to also object to the idea that Diana had psychological problems which were hereditary - she may have - but we do not know nor is the state of understanding about the role of heredity in mental disorders that advanced. 
that we can say with any surety that her problems were inherited.  .

Back to 

Regardless of whether the problems are hereditary or not, I think she certainly had problems.  I think that she was ver needy, she was immature at the time of her marriage and sicne she did her growing up in a  very "bubble like" environment, she didn't mature very steadily. I think she was hard to live with and any man would have found it difficult esp someone who by his position In life is bound to be somewhat spoiled. I think that he DID try to look after her, and to understand her but he found ti difficult.  She was very different ot him, and very much younger.  Other men who loved her, even when she was older, also found her "drama queen" ways a bit hard to cope with. Ther are issues like her pushing her stepmother, allegedly throwing herself down the stairs to frighten Charles while Pregnant..  these things are either the result of her being very selfish or having same problems.  I don't believe she was "mad" or "bad" but she wasn't an angel and she did have problems that made her hard to cope with at close quarters. and she and C were just too different to fit well together.  As for his "attitude to men's' wives" I don't think he was all that differnet to many men of the upper classes who felt that (while divorce is now easily available) that it was necessary to break up one's marriage over an affair..

Diana discussion is off topic isn't it? Why is she talked about in the thread. That's why the Charles thread was created. Because there was objection to talk of Charles in the Diana thread. Now there is a Charles thread, the same rules should apply.
Double post auto-merged: October 10, 2014, 02:15:00 PM

Knowing what a marriage entails isn't about intelligence it's about knowing your emotions and yourself and if you're still "preferring" someone else you probably shouldn't be getting married so that's no excuse for hurting someone else. It happened and people have moved on and he seems happy so I guess it is what it is. As far as Diana's affairs, I can't comment since this thread isn't about her and that's been discussed elsewhere

Yeah it happened. And to the relief of his fans Charles is happy at last. Diana did not get chance to be happy

[Canuck]

Absolutely Charles shouldn't have married someone he didn't know that well and wasn't sure about.  And he shouldn't have cheated on her.

Does that mean he should be miserable forever, though?  He did some bad things.  Most people do at some point.  I don't have any trouble recognizing that Charles behaved badly.  I do have trouble with the idea that even DECADES later he shouldn't be allowed to move on with his life. 

I hold Charles more responsible than Diana for the early problems in the marriage (that they got married at all, that he seems to have cheated first, etc.).  But by the time we got the "war of the Wales" I think they were both very much at fault, as it really brought out the worst in BOTH parties.  I can see how it escalated -- they were stuck in a marriage they didn't think they could get out of, they clearly had irreconcilable differences by that point, and they both wanted to get their side of the story out and the press lapped up every word.  At the same time, they both behaved pretty appallingly.

But since his first marriage ended, Charles has shown himself to be a good father and has worked hard for many worthy causes.  He's made a happy and stable marriage with his second wife, and around her has really loosened up and shown a warmer and more engaging side of his personality.  His behavior in the 80s and early 90s is certainly a piece of the picture, but I don't think it's the whole thing.