If Diana had worn a seatbelt she would have been at Harry's wedding says 9/11 pathologist | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6194823/If-Diana-worn-seatbelt-Harrys-wedding-says-9-11-pathologist.html)
if the seat belts malfunctioned, why not drive the car back tyo the Ritz Garage and stay the night, or get a car that did have working seatbelts?
Wasn't checking that sort of thing Trevor, the security guy's, responsibility before they set off? And returning to the hotel would be the sensible thing to do! I've never seen any rhyme or reason really in their comings and goings that night. Why not have a light supper at the Ritz and just relax for the night? It's not as if it was the first visit to Paris for either of them and so it was imperative that they see the city by night.
Quote from: Curryong on September 22, 2018, 01:31:38 PM
Wasn't checking that sort of thing Trevor, the security guy's, responsibility before they set off? And returning to the hotel would be the sensible thing to do! I've never seen any rhyme or reason really in their comings and goings that night. Why not have a light supper at the Ritz and just relax for the night? It's not as if it was the first visit to Paris for either of them and so it was imperative that they see the city by night.
this story abt the seat belts malfunctioning crops up but it has not been proven.
Surely in all the Investigations into the crash, if there were faulty seat belts in the car, it would have been noted by the investigators. It never ahas as far as I know.. So I don't believe there was anyting wrong with the seat belts. it woud probably have increased Di's and Dodi's chance of survival, if they had belted up.
I think a lot of the messing around, was due to Dodis messy disorganised way of living. He summoned Henri Paul to come in whene he was off duty, and drive..and Henri had been drinking. He also didnt have the licence required to drive a heavy car..
The guards I think pointed out that it was usaul to have a back up car and Dodi didn't agree to that... He made life difficult for his staff and probably by the time they left the Ritz Di was tired out and just longing to get to D's flat and go to bed. So she didn't bothter putting her belt on.
Acording to MAF, Dodi had said that they had to go back to his apartment to get their clothes - as if the Fayeds did't have enough staff to send someone to Dodi's place and pack for htem...
It is in inquest reports. the car was stolen previously and deployed at the last minute.
And it was out of character for Diana NOT to buckle up. She did this all the time. It seems odd and it refutes people attempting to blame her for her own death.
The bodyguard has amnesia and admittedly does not remember every detail. A good security guard would have had inspected the car and driver before taking off on that trip. It was like every man for himself if HE buckled up and did not make sure his charges had working seatbelts.
You make it sound she was negligent. I find it suspicious that she made a habit of buckling up no matter what.
Supposedly Dodi wanted to give Diana the ring that night.
It would have increased Diana's survival chances if the medical care in Paris was not so screwed up. It took her hours to get the needed help. But this is brushed aside.\ by some.
Quote from: sara8150 on September 22, 2018, 02:10:56 AM
If Diana had worn a seatbelt she would have been at Harry's wedding says 9/11 pathologist | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6194823/If-Diana-worn-seatbelt-Harrys-wedding-says-9-11-pathologist.html)
he's saying no news. same without seat belt she arrived alive in hospital, the seat belt probably would have improved her situation... they are, in fact, known for save lives
There are so many "what ifs" here. The one that has always stayed in my mind is the design of the de-Alma tunnel with the center divide made up of those exposed individual columns just waiting to be run into. There's a similar long tunnel near where I live that runs under a wide freeway and the center divide isn't individual columns but a continuous wall. If the de-Alma tunnel had been so designed, the Mercedes would simply have bounced off, back into the traffic lane instead of being impaled on the column. The occupants would probably have been shaken up, but would have survived.
Then, hopefully, Diana would have realized Henri Paul was drunk, become irate with Dodi and told him to take a hike. But, it didn't work that way.
But if that car hadn't been travelling at the speed it was then the pillars and the tunnel design wouldn't have mattered because the car wouldn't have connected with them. It was the speed at which they were travelling that was ultimately the difference between life and death for the Mercedes' occupants.
I agree with your points, I'm just suggesting the design of the tunnel was yet another factor in the long series of events that resulted in three deaths. Even if Paul had still been speeding, lost control in the tunnel and struck the center divider, the three would have most probably survived. IMHO, of course.
Yes, it was a combination of things that night that culminated in the crash. The occupants went in a car driven too fast by a drunken member of staff, safety procedures were ignored, the seatbelts might not have been working properly and they went through a badly designed tunnel. And after the accident Diana was driven quite slowly to the hospital, though we don't know whether she would have survived anyway.
Plus Dodi and Diana decided to go out that night, presumably to collect clothing of all things, instead of staying put and relaxing with a nice hotel supper and a glass of wine. If they had done that then she would have been back in London the next day and Dodi and Henri Paul would also have been alive and kicking. Sometimes fate just steps in I think.
Quote from: Curryong on September 23, 2018, 03:42:15 AM
Yes, it was a combination of things that night that culminated in the crash. The occupants went in a car driven too fast by a drunken member of staff, safety procedures were ignored, the seatbelts might not have been working properly and they went through a badly designed tunnel. And after the accident Diana was driven quite slowly to the hospital, though we don't know whether she would have survived anyway.
.
She was drven slowly to hospital because she had heart attacks on the way. had they not gone slowly and stopped to stabilise her, when she went into heart attack, she would have died in the ambulance. And if the seat belts were really malfunctioning, Diana would surely have realised this as soon as she tried to belt up, which one tends to do, as soon as you settle into a car... and if so, (not that I believe it was the case) surely the sensible thing to do would have been to say "lets go back and get another car.. : ( I cant believe thtat the Ritz didn't have more than 1 car available....)
and of course if they had not had an over excited drunken driver who went too fast, they would probably not have crashed in the tunell...
Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2018, 12:40:05 PM
Quote from: Mike on September 23, 2018, 12:57:20 AM
There are so many "what ifs" here. The one that has always stayed in my mind is the design of the de-Alma tunnel with the center divide made up of those exposed individual columns just waiting to be run into. There's a similar long tunnel near where I live that runs under a wide freeway and the center divide isn't individual columns but a continuous wall. If the de-Alma tunnel had been so designed, the Mercedes would simply have bounced off, back into the traffic lane instead of being impaled on the column. The occupants would probably have been shaken up, but would have survived.
T
IIRC ths came up a while ago, and someone with an engineering background said that a different design would have made no difrference to the force of the crash. H Paul was going too fast and was not an experienced heavy car driver.. He was not supposed to enter that tunnel at speed.. and that's what caused the crash...
So now Trever Rees Jones is to blame?
she had to be cut out of the car, which was a difficult and delicate task..
and she did, as far as I know have more than one cardiac arrest in the ambulance, which meant that they had to stop and stablise her. She had a cardiac arrest when they had just cut her out, which meant that they had to give hr CPR...
Quote from: dianab on September 23, 2018, 12:09:41 AM
he's saying no news. same without seat belt she arrived alive in hospital, the seat belt probably would have improved her situation... they are, in fact, known for save lives
I have to agree
@dianab-This is nothing new. The only survivor was the only person in the car who was wearing a restraint.
The seatbelts reportedly malfunctioned. It was out of character for Diana not to buckle up.
^^^If that was the case then they could have chosen to use a different vehicle. However the obviously decided against to remain in that car and continued on their journey. We all know what happened to the three unrestrained passengers.
do you realy think that they didn't do their utmost to get her out of the car, as quickly and safely as possible/??
Quote from: amabel on September 23, 2018, 04:42:00 PM
So now Trever Rees Jones is to blame?
she had to be cut out of the car, which was a difficult and delicate task..
and she did, as far as I know have more than one cardiac arrest in the ambulance, which meant that they had to stop and stablise her. She had a cardiac arrest when they had just cut her out, which meant that they had to give hr CPR...
she had 2 cardiac arrests before arrive to the hospital and they stopped the ambulance to stabilize her... it's thought she'd have died in the moment if they hadnt take care of the cardiac arrests. the seatbelts probably would have saved her, dodi and the driver
i also read the paparazzi made hard the work of paramedics
Quote from: amabel on September 24, 2018, 05:45:53 PM
do you realy think that they didn't do their utmost to get her out of the car, as quickly and safely as possible/??
That actually took time because the First Responders had to triage all of the victims and get their status. Then use the jaws of life to extract the deceased and survivors from the crumpled vehicle. They knew soon that two were deceased and two were injured. Trevor Rees was considered to be in worse shape than Diana at the scene. Once she was able to be removed then the situation reversed and her BP dropped dramatically.
France like many other First World European nations does not practice "scoop and run" like is found in North America. Victims are treated by doctors, nurses and others at the scene. Diana had a mobile emergency room waiting for her. Due to her catastrophic injuries, she went into cardiac arrest twice. Even in Scoop and Run nations, this cannot be ignored and must be treated even if it means that the vehicle must stop so first responders can make an attempt to stabilize the patient.
As for ambulances, not every space in a large urban area is safe for helicopters to land and take off. This accident occurred in an area that might not have been able to land close to the accident site. Therefore Diana would very likely have to have been transported by a ground vehicle to find a place large enough to land a helicopter. Her catastrophic injuries were already making it difficult to move her without another episode of cardiac arrest. :(
QuoteBut the first responders were the paps.
Typically first responders are considered to be emergency personnel ie: police, fire, paramedics etc..but if you consider photographers to be first responders that's fine. :)
Keep in mind that it took a long time to remove Diana because the first responders had to assess the condition of everyone and the state of the vehicle made it impossible to safely and swiftly extract the driver and passengers. It's not uncommon in severe car crashes to require jaws of life and other equipment to be used since doors and windows would be inoperable. :shrug: Since the occupants were not restrained, they were not all in their seats. Diana was on the floor which meant it took extra time to safely extract her.
We know that a high rate of speed, an impaired and inexperienced driver and unrestrained passengers led to the deaths of three people that night. :(
Quote from: sandy on September 25, 2018, 12:33:51 PM
I know all that. But the first responders were the paps. I read a minute by minute account and Diana was allowed to stay in that car for a long time--and every second counted.
Trevor had a face injury.
I do.
Sc
S
R
Since when are a bunch of greedy and money mad paparazzi, who didn't sop from taking photos when Diana was clearly badly injured "first responders??" I simply cannot believe this.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 04:33:57 AM
Quote from: TLLK on September 25, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
Typically first responders are considered to be emergency personnel ie: police, fire, paramedics etc..but if you consider photographers to be first responders that's fine. :)
Keep in mind that it took a long time to remove Diana because the first responders had to assess the condition of everyone and the state of the vehicle made it impossible to safely and swiftly extract the driver and passengers. It's not uncommon in severe car crashes to require jaws of life and other equipment to be used since doors and windows would be inoperable. :shrug: Since the occupants were not restrained, they were not all in their seats. Diana was on the floor which meant it took extra time to safely extract her.
We know that a high rate of speed, an impaired and inexperienced driver and unrestrained passengers led to the deaths of three people that night. :(
That was why it took a long time to extricate Diana, her arm was dislocated and she was sandwiched within the vehicle. She could not be qucikly dragged out.. and if she had gone by helicopter, assuming ti was possible to get one in time, its possble that the travel and movemetn woudl have pushed her agian into cardiac arrest. When tehy had cut her free, she had a heart attack on the spot, which meant they had to giv her CPR for some time or she woudl have died right then. They drove slowly because she was in danger of heart attack again. During the ride, her blood pressure went very low, forcing them to give her dopamine to stablise her.
This has been an informative discussion for me, as this has been an area of Diana's life (or death) that I've kept away from really (and I don't like conspiracy theories about things, normally.)
However, over the last week or so I've been discussing aspects of the crash in the tunnel with a friend, who does believe there are some unanswered questions about the seatbelts, the car and the driver. So, in the interest of further discussion (hopefully) I'm going to put an opposing point of view to my own here. As Devil's Advocate.
'Regarding the seatbelts its not up there with Mercedes Benz admitting it, but there are some things on the issue of the belt.
A lawyer close to the case is quoted in Britain?s Daily Express newspaper as saying: ?The safety belt issue is crucial.?We?ve all been in the back of a car and found a faulty buckle, but the fact that both Diana and Dodi?s belts appeared not to be working is extremely sinister."
Death of Diana, Princess of Wales - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diana),_Princess_of_Wales_conspiracy_theories#Seat_belt
Analysis of the wreckage of the car after its repatriation to England in 2005 by a Forensic Accident Investigator from the Transport Research Laboratory of thirty-five years experience on behalf of Operation Paget found that all the seat belts were in good working order except for the right rear one which was attached to the seat Diana occupied. ....True the French later claimed they were all working, but thats a bit convenient for them.
As for Henri Paul's blood, there are many issues with the testing and pathology on that, one has to take it with a grain of salt, there is no way he could be conscious with the amount of carbon monoxide in that sample, it was perhaps more likely his blood was the blood of a monoxide suicide or accidental death. If he was the alcoholic that they claim, his flight physical 72 hrs before the crash would have picked it up. Also the CCTV shows nothing to suggest impairment.
I don't know if Dodi would have objected to the belts being used, nor do I think Trevor was keen to have Diana put hers on, but he was certainly quick to try and save his own skin and get his on. Either he was in on it(unlikely, though perhaps after the fact), a bad bodyguard, or the belt didnt work.'
Those are a few observations of my friend on the smash in the tunnel. Thoughts, anyone?
Even if they wanted to I doubt Will and Harry would want to "make waves" about this. I think Harry's comment though was very telling. Several weird things happened in that tunnel.
It was also suspicious that Henri Paul who was supposedly "drunk" could deftly tie his shoes without collapsing to the ground. And how come Rees Jones did not smell alcohol. Rees Jones memory is lacking because of amnesia. No ethical guard would let someone who reeks of alchohol drive a car.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 05:19:37 PM
Quote from: Curryong on September 26, 2018, 05:26:23 AM
This has been an informative discussion for me, as this has been an area of Diana's life (or death) that I've kept away from really (and I don't like conspiracy theories about things, normally.)
However, over the last week or so I've been discussing aspects of the crash in the tunnel with a friend, who does believe there are some unanswered questions about the seatbelts, the car and the driver. So, in the interest of further discussion (hopefully) I'm going to put an opposing point of view to my own here. As Devil's Advocate.
'Regarding the seatbelts its not up there with Mercedes Benz admitting it, but there are some things on the issue of the belt.
A lawyer close to the case is quoted in Britain?s Daily Express newspaper as saying: ?The safety belt issue is crucial.?We?ve all been in the back of a car and found a faulty buckle, but the fact that both Diana and Dodi?s belts appeared not to be working is extremely sinister."
Death of Diana, Princess of Wales - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Diana),_Princess_of_Wales_conspiracy_theories#Seat_belt
Analysis of the wreckage of the car after its repatriation to England in 2005 by a Forensic Accident Investigator from the Transport Research Laboratory of thirty-five years experience on behalf of Operation Paget found that all the seat belts were in good working order except for the right rear one which was attached to the seat Diana occupied. ....True the French later claimed they were all working, but thats a bit convenient for them.
As for Henri Paul's blood, there are many issues with the testing and pathology on that, one has to take it with a grain of salt, there is no way he could be conscious with the amount of carbon monoxide in that sample, it was perhaps more likely his blood was the blood of a monoxide suicide or accidental death. If he was the alcoholic that they claim, his flight physical 72 hrs before the crash would have picked it up. Also the CCTV shows nothing to suggest impairment.
I don't know if Dodi would have objected to the belts being used, nor do I think Trevor was keen to have Diana put hers on, but he was certainly quick to try and save his own skin and get his on. Either he was in on it(unlikely, though perhaps after the fact), a bad bodyguard, or the belt didnt work.'
Those are a few observations of my friend on the smash in the tunnel. Thoughts, anyone?
I agree with you. The bodyguard appeared to be inept to me. But as I said he lost his memory. Some writers say he would be in danger if he ever got his memory back.
Diana always buckled up and her relatives commented on that.
Very odd events indeed.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 05:21:11 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 26, 2018, 04:29:05 AM
Since when are a bunch of greedy and money mad paparazzi, who didn't sop from taking photos when Diana was clearly badly injured "first responders??" I simply cannot believe this.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 04:33:57 AM
That was why it took a long time to extricate Diana, her arm was dislocated and she was sandwiched within the vehicle. She could not be qucikly dragged out.. and if she had gone by helicopter, assuming ti was possible to get one in time, its possble that the travel and movemetn woudl have pushed her agian into cardiac arrest. When tehy had cut her free, she had a heart attack on the spot, which meant they had to giv her CPR for some time or she woudl have died right then. They drove slowly because she was in danger of heart attack again. During the ride, her blood pressure went very low, forcing them to give her dopamine to stablise her.
She certainly would have had a better chance as Dr. Barnard pointed out. She died with the inept procedure. Nobody has any clue if she would have had survived if she had gotten there sooner.
Reagan had internal injuries more severe than was thought he was rushed to the hospital speeding. he would have died if he had been taken through the streets in a slow ambulance.
Quote from: TLLK on September 26, 2018, 03:21:53 PM
And the Telegraph article shared that a palace spokesperson revealed Prince Harry's comments should not be taken that he believed in any conspiracy theories and that is natural that as the children of the late PssoW, that they'd have times when they'd "wonder" what had occurred. Having lost a sibling in a car crash with very similar circumstances to the one that killed Diana (high speed and an unrestrained passenger) I too have wondered about his final moments and the crash. It is natural for the surviving family to do so. However the crash in the Pont D' Alma tunnel certainly had elements of too many road accidents and circumstances that all drivers are warned against to prevent catastrophic and potentially fatal accidents: 1. Follow posted speed limits-Henri Paul did not do so. 2. Do not drink and drive-Henri Paul was impaired by alcohol. 3. Driver and passenger should be restrained by an approved safety restraint-Driver and passengers were not restrained. As to the paparazzi who were chasing them, that is not a typical road accident element but the inquest certainly acknowledged that it played a role.
Harry: I'll never stop wondering about crash - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1554366/Harry-Ill-never-stop-wondering-about-crash.html)
Of course he will wonder about it, it was his mother and he loved her and he will never have full knowledge of what she experienced...
but if people want to believe that for some unknown reason, some people, also unknown wanted to kill Diana, they will believe it.. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them otherwise.
Quotebut if people want to believe that for some unknown reason, some people, also unknown wanted to kill Diana, they will believe it.. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them otherwise.
Yes
@amabel conspiracy theorists will choose to believe whatever they wish to believe about 9/11, The Kennedy assassination, etc..
The accident that killed three that night and injured Trevor Rees Jones had all the hallmarks of too many road accidents: excessive speed, an impaired driver and unrestrained passengers/driver. This is why countries around the world created laws to control speed and ensure safe drivers and passengers. Even with the laws in place, there are still those who speed, are impaired (alcohol, drugs, medication, sleep deprivation) and those who are unrestrained in a vehicle and too often these accidents are fatal. :no:
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 06:23:06 PM
QuoteShe certainly would have had a better chance as Dr. Barnard pointed out. She died with the inept procedure. Nobody has any clue if she would have had survived if she had gotten there sooner.
She went into cardiac arrest at least twice while enroute to the hospital. It would have been highly unethical and inept to not stop and treat the situation when it occurred. Had they ignored it, then this would have been a clear case of malpractice by the ambulance doctor, nurses and other members of the team. The medical team at the scene, in the ambulance and in the hospital did everything according to the established protocol to try and save her from her catastrophic injuries, but when faced with an unrestrained passenger who has been involved in a crash like the one in the tunnel, her chances of survival were not high. :no:
@TLLK, I meant to add that I was sorry to hear of your loss.. you never get over a loss like that, as I know myself.. and of course any one who has lost someone like that, will always have questions and wonder about things.
I think that it is so unfair to lay blame on Rhys Jones.. Dodi was the one who wanted the "plan" of using HEnri Paul who was not a qualified heavy car driver, who had been off duty and had had a few drinks and was taking Prozac.. Dodi was always messing round with plans, not telling his bodyguards what he was doing.. and with only 2 of them, it was hard for them to combat an aggressive bunch like the Paparrazzi?
But people who want to believe this sort of thing will believe it...
Trevor RJ has that amnesia.
How often the boys think about it is known only to them? It is normal to think about a deceased parent. And yes, it is healthy. Sometimes blocking it out causes more harm.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 09:44:47 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 26, 2018, 06:04:18 PM
Of course he will wonder about it, it was his mother and he loved her and he will never have full knowledge of what she experienced...
but if people want to believe that for some unknown reason, some people, also unknown wanted to kill Diana, they will believe it.. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them otherwise.
It is not necessarily thinking that Diana was murdered when people write about the blundering medical care that may well have cost Diana her life.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 09:47:58 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 26, 2018, 06:17:18 PM
Yes @amabel conspiracy theorists will choose to believe whatever they wish to believe about 9/11, The Kennedy assassination, etc..
The accident that killed three that night and injured Trevor Rees Jones had all the hallmarks of too many road accidents: excessive speed, an impaired driver and unrestrained passengers/driver. This is why countries around the world created laws to control speed and ensure safe drivers and passengers. Even with the laws in place, there are still those who speed, are impaired (alcohol, drugs, medication, sleep deprivation) and those who are unrestrained in a vehicle and too often these accidents are fatal. :no:
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 06:23:06 PM
She went into cardiac arrest at least twice while enroute to the hospital. It would have been highly unethical and inept to not stop and treat the situation when it occurred. Had they ignored it, then this would have been a clear case of malpractice by the ambulance doctor, nurses and other members of the team. The medical team at the scene, in the ambulance and in the hospital did everything according to the established protocol to try and save her from her catastrophic injuries, but when faced with an unrestrained passenger who has been involved in a crash like the one in the tunnel, her chances of survival were not high. :no:
The way they treated her did not save her life. Fact. No matter how it is spun. She did not get to the hospital in time. The ambulance people were ineffective.
Established protocol? It was a clumsy medical system. She should have gone to that first hospital and the medical team could have gotten to that hospital pronto. It was blundering because a world famous and person got killed on their watch and in their country.
The established protocol ultimately killed her.
I would say it was malpractice. A family here in the US would have sued and probably won. If Diana had the accident in the US and gotten to a hospital quickly I really believe she'd be alive today.
QuoteThe way they treated her did not save her life. Fact. No matter how it is spun. She did not get to the hospital in time. The ambulance people were ineffective.
Established protocol?
No it did not save Diana, Princess of Wales' life
as her injuries were catastrophic. Keep in mind that the impact actually caused her heart to be displaced. However the established protocol on treating accident victims that is utilized by First World nations such as France and Luxembourg has saved countless lives. SAMUR is the system's name and it follows the protocol of bringing the emergency room to the accident scene instead of relying upon paramedics to transport the victims to the hospital emergency room.
Quote"The bottom line is, whatever the merits or demerits of the French emergency medical system, poor Diana was a goner from the beginning because of the particular nature of her deceleration injury."
Princess Diana's Death: Anniversary Brings French Health Care Into Focus - ABC News (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/story?id=8437560)
QuoteThe French philosophy on emergency medical care is to provide a higher level of care at the scene of the incident, and so SMUR (Service Mobile d'Urgence et Reanimation[8]) units are staffed by a qualified physician along with a nurse and/or emergency medical technician. This contrasts with systems in other parts of the world, notably the Anglo-Saxon countries (United Kingdom, United States, Australia etc.) where care on scene is conducted primarily by paramedics or emergency medical technicians, with physicians only becoming involved on scene at the most complex or large scale incidents.
The result is that a SMUR unit will typically spend a long time on scene compared with a paramedic ambulance in a different system, as the physician may conduct a full set of observations, examinations and interventions before removal to hospital.
There are pluses and minuses to both systems. What they do have in common is people doing their best to try and assist those who have been injured in accidents, but they're not miracle workers. :shrug:
Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:52:44 AM
QuoteThe real problems started when the patient was moved from a sitting to a supine position during extrication. Such positional changes, Mattox explains, can cause a herniated heart to slip in or out of its protective sac or get wedged in the opening. That constricts the heart and prevents it from beating properly. According to Mattox, it was probably pericardial strangulation, rather than internal bleeding, that caused Diana?s sudden cardiac arrest in the tunnel.
?The damage to her heart had already happened and her death would have been inevitable at this point,? he says. ?Even in the best of trauma centers, this rare condition would have been difficult to diagnose and treat?in most cases, it is only discovered at the time of autopsy. I think the result would have been the same in any trauma center in the U.S.?even if she had been brought to the emergency room 15 minutes after the accident.? If Mattox?s theory is correct, then the French were
Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:55:55 AM
The views of an American trauma specialist concluded that further damage was done to her heart as she was extricated. Their conclusion that even if she'd been in an American trauma center within 15 minutes, she'd still have died. The injuries she suffered were too catastrophic.
Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:57:45 AM
The Diana Mysteries | Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2004/10/princess-diana-death-investigations)
From what I know, the first person to arrive, said there wasn't any photographers there until 4 minutes later. The driver was going so fast that they lost the paps. He also said that the photographers never kept him from getting to her, never touched the car and whenever he told them that he needed more room, they did. It took the first responders a while to get her out. The car looked crushed that I don't blame them for taking their time to remove her. This is just based on what I know and I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me, because so much has been said and written for the past two decades.
TLK Barnard clearly was not saying HE would do it. He was commenting about the bad medical treatment in Paris. One specialist was saying she could not have been saved, others disagree. The point is it was the wrong treatment for Diana if they wanted her to survive the accident. ANd it is immaterial if Barnard did heart transplants. He was an expert on the heart.
Quote from: michelle0187 on September 27, 2018, 02:54:09 PM
From what I know, the first person to arrive, said there wasn't any photographers there until 4 minutes later. The driver was going so fast that they lost the paps. He also said that the photographers never kept him from getting to her, never touched the car and whenever he told them that he needed more room, they did. It took the first responders a while to get her out. The car looked crushed that I don't blame them for taking their time to remove her. This is just based on what I know and I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me, because so much has been said and written for the past two decades.
In an emergency situation certainly the first responders could have ordered the photographers to leave. Later they did get arrested. Too little too late.
A big part of the problem was the delay in even beginning to get her out of that car.
The late Dr. Barnard was welcome to his opinion, but his colleagues who were actual trauma care specialists didn't agree with his findings. Keep in mind that Dr. Barnard while a brilliant and pioneering transplant surgeon didn't practice emergency room or trauma care. His American colleagues who did practice in these fields believed that she would not have survived. :(
American trauma care specialists have concluded that even with their practice of "scoop and run" that Diana's catastrophic injuries doomed her due to the massive trauma that she'd received as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed. The impact displaced her heart and the movement during her extraction from the vehicle exacerbated the situation.
He was extremely knowedgeable I would not discredit his opinion to put it mildly.
Not all American trauma care people thought that way.
It makes it sound that she should have just been left there to die if these heartless people talk about nothing making any difference. As i said, a dog would have been treated better.
There is NO way of knowing if the scoop and run would have worked or not because it was not attempted. I don't think anybody can say that.
It is KNOWN that the way she was treated did not work. No question about it.
How do you know ALL of his American colleagues felt that way. I very much doubt it.
Saying she would have died anyway IMO is a cop out. No matter how "expert" the doctor is. It's a way of spinning the bad treatment Diana got that night.
The damning part of all this is that it took too much time to even start getting her out. And I don't buy the excuse that "photographers were in the way." Unless they each weight 20 tons each they could have moved even by force.
Quote from: TLLK on September 27, 2018, 06:00:41 PM
The late Dr. Barnard was welcome to his opinion, but his colleagues who were actual trauma care specialists didn't agree with his findings. Keep in mind that Dr. Barnard while a brilliant and pioneering transplant surgeon didn't practice emergency room or trauma care. His American colleagues who did practice in these fields believed that she would not have survived. :(
American trauma care specialists have concluded that even with their practice of "scoop and run" that Diana's catastrophic injuries doomed her due to the massive trauma that she'd received as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed. The impact displaced her heart and the movement during her extraction from the vehicle exacerbated the situation.
He is indeed welcome to his opnion but it is generally considered bad medicial etiquette to criticise other doctors in a situation that one hasn't been in. Barnard was not at the accident, and has no experience In that sort of wrok. He cant know all the details or what it was like and it is not IMO on to attack fellow professionals when you don't know the ins and outs of a case, and in any case it is not your area of speciality...
Other doctors disagree with him, and it seems ot me that she was very badly injured. Two of the others in the car had died on the spot.. so it was a terrible crash. Trevor RJ survived witht terrible injuries...
Diana was severely injured and the fact that she kept going into cardiac arrest meant that she was very close to death and there problaby was not much that medical or surgical expertise could do for her...
If she had been moved to a helicopter, assumng one could come close, the movemetn would probalby have triggered a heart attack just as geting her out of the car had already done...
and how long would ti have takene to transfer equipment and doctors to another hospital.
Cardiac arrest, and sudden dropping of blood pressure to a dangerous level means that the person is in serious trouble and needs urgent assistance. Even then it may not work..
Quote from: sandy on September 27, 2018, 06:45:34 PM
Faster than that darn ambulance. You don't know what would have happened.
But the "other Hospital" was nearer to the site of the accident.. but not much point in Diana's arriving there in 10 mintutes if (a) she died during the journey because of a jar or jolt cuasing her heart to give up... and they could not do CPR because they were moving too fast or (b) if there was no equipment or doctors at the other hospital....
She did not die during the overly slow ambulance ride so surely she would have survived ten minutes. They did not have to speed or go at a snails pace.
They did have to go at a snails pace, to prevent her heart from stopping and to allow for stabilising procedures when her BP dropped or her heart stopped..
But if the hospital was closer they would not have had to go "too fast" because they would get there in time. The first one was not that far.
Why would you think it would not be of much help? It was not even tried.
It wasn't tried because they were taking her to a hospital which had surgeons and equipment who could operate on her. THey managed to keep her alive long enough to get her there...
IT was decided that that was the bset thing to do. If she had gone to a nearer hospital they would have not had surgeons who were able to work on her, and possibly no equipment.. and its possible that they did not have any suitable facitlies for performing heart surgery of the kind that was needed. So if she had gone there, she would have had to wait for a team to come from one hospital to another and for equipment to be moved..... how would that help?
QuoteHe was extremely knowedgeable I would not discredit his opinion to put it mildly
Yes he was an extremely knowledgeable man in his particular specialty. However his specialty was
NOT trauma care. :)
His American colleagues who specialized in trauma care would have the knowledge, experience and skill at this extremely fast paced work. The late Dr. Barnard was not a specialist in trauma care nor did he work in any emergency room during his post-residency career. Yes I do place a greater value on the opinion of those
who actually work in an American trauma center based in a large urban setting. The late Dr. Barnard
never worked in one of those trauma centers. If they state that Diana would not have survived even if she'd been taken to their trauma center within 15 minutes of the crash, then I do believe them as they are the experts in the field.
QuoteIT was decided that that was the bset thing to do. If she had gone to a nearer hospital they would have not had surgeons who were able to work on her, and possibly no equipment.. and its possible that they did not have any suitable facitlies for performing heart surgery of the kind that was needed. So if she had gone there, she would have had to wait for a team to come from one hospital to another and for equipment to be moved..... how would that help
I agree
@amabel that it would have been a waste of time to transport the trauma team to another hospital and it would have jeopardized the care of any other patients who might have required similar services that night.
QuoteYou and TLK keep ignoring the first hospital that was bypassed and yes, doctors and equipment could have been transferred thn.
The first hospital was not a designated trauma center for Paris. It did not have the personnel or equipment needed to treat victims that required a high level of trauma care. To take her to a hospital that didn't have the skilled personnel, equipment and medications required would have been unethical and malpractice. She was transported to the designated trauma center for that part of Paris.
To move an entire team and the necessary equipment was not the practical and reasonable solution as those doctors/nurses/technicians might not have been licensed to work in another hospital beside Piti?-Salp?tri?re
QuoteNo doctors have superpowers.
No they don't so based upon the testimony of the skilled medical team that gave care to the late Diana, Princess of Wales and the opinions of American trauma care specialists, the injuries that she sustained as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle that was traveling at a high rate of speed and later crashed into a pillar, she would not have survived. :(
QuoteIt is routine that medical specialists from elsewhere do go to hospitals to treat or operate on patients.
Yes it does happen when there are planned operations not emergency ones. Those specialists have also been cleared to work and have admitting privileges in those hospitals.
Trauma teams routinely stay at the hospitals in which they have their necessary equipment set up for them. :)
QuoteHe would learn about trauma care and certainly speak to specialists in this area.
Yes the late Doctor Barnard could have chosen to do so but AFAIK the records show he didn't make the decision to do so in his post residency career. He had a successful career in his own specialty.
QuoteIf there were someone lying in the streets in front of that first hospital who experienced trauma I doubt that hospital would have let the patient lie there or close the doors to him ot her/
They'd provide preliminary care and arrange to have the patient transported to the hospital that had the trauma specialists waiting with their trained nurses, technicians and equipment. Hospitals do this routinely via ground ambulance or air ambulance. Ironically nearly twenty years later, Diana's eldest son would be working for EAAA to transport victims to hospitals that could provide specialized care to those who required it.
QuoteI don't get the defense oft his. If any of us had a loved one severely injured we'd fight tooth and nail to get the person to the hospital STAT.
Yes I would if I were in the U.S., the UK, Canada, Australia or another nation that practices "scoop and run."
If I were in France, I'd await the mobile emergency room ambulance that comes to the scene to bring treatment to the patient.
QuoteWhat they did to Diana was horrible.
No it wasn't horrible IMVHO. What the French did was make every attempt to save her life. She was given the best possible emergency care but her injuries were so severe that she was not going to be saved. The massive trauma that she sustained as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle that was traveling at a high rate of speed by an impaired driver caused her heart to be displaced. She was resuscitated twice due to her cardiac arrest episodes. She was given cardiac massage and electric shocks to restart her heart. One of the best cardiac specialists in France tried to save her. However due to the grave injuries that she sustained, she wasn't going to survive. :(
I have to say this is totally interesting and for what it's worth here is my opinion. TLLk and amabel you both say she received quality care in the ambulance I beg to defer as they say in France the ambulances are mobile ER's they are not. I have the same opinion of when Princess Grace died they ambulance took too long getting her to a hospital where they could have treated her for her stroke and she could have survived. In instances such as Diana and Grace precious time was lost to diagnose and treat them appropriately. I don't discount Dr. Bernard he was one of the worlds most esteemed heart specialist however there are many unknowns as to what really happened that night especially what occurred in that ambulance.
Each case is different. What works for one might not work for another. I recall reading that some doctors reported that since Diana was relatively young and healthy and had an exercise regimen and healthy diet, her heart was healthy and that would have given her an advantage if she had gotten to the hospital on time.
I read about the Reagan case. And like Diana, his injuries were way more serious than first responders thought. Had he taken a slow ride to a hospital experts said he would have died. A speedy trip to the hospital saved his life. His surgery was very complicated and could not have been done in an ambulance with equipment and taken a slow trip.
Diana could have survived had she gotten there in time.
As I said it depends on the patient. There are no cookie cutter situations.
QuoteDiana could have survived had she gotten there in time.
There are some doctors (not trauma specialists) who have stated this in the wake of her death. Others who work in trauma care on a daily basis are not necessarily convinced that speed would have changed the outcome due to the massive and catastrophic injuries that she had due to being an unrestrained passenger involved in a crash involving a high rate of speed.
It is because these types of accidents that nations have the following:
1. Laws requiring car safety restraints for drivers and passengers and requiring them to be used. (
We know that none of the four were restrained.) 2.
Laws l
imiting the speed that a car can be driven in various placesr. (
The speed limit in the tunnel was 35 MPH and the
Mercedes entered the tunnel at 87MPH.) 3.
Laws requiring that drivers be unimpaired by drugs, medication, alcohol. (
We know Henri Paul was impaired that night.)
Since the accident featured unrestrained passengers, a high rate of speed and an impaired driver it is miraculous that Trevor survived and that no other vehicles were involved. Sadly it is not surprising that three passengers did not survive the crash. :no: This was unfortunately the case.
Double post auto-merged: September 28, 2018, 10:44:36 PM
Ironically both of Diana's sons would later be involved as either a first responders or working closely to them. William with SAR and EAAA and Harry with the army. William working with teams to provide search and rescue and later transport for victims of accidents and later Harry observing the army medics that treated not only soldiers but POWs and civilians. Both have met with first responders in the UK and heard about their experiences. If either brother had any doubt about the dedication and skill that these men and women provide to strangers 24/7 around the globe, then I believe their doubts were soon relieved.
QuoteWilliam did not have anything to do with medical treatments. There were others in the copter who did that.
Neither WIll nor Harry are not qualified to treat patients with serious injuries.
William had very flexible hours at the copter job.
:) I never stated that they had anything to do with medical treatments. I said that William worked with the team that transported patients and as a EAAA helicopter co-pilot/pilot he would be involved in transportation of victims/patients.
I also stated that Harry observed the medics in action.
William had to have flexible hours as he was also performing royal engagements.
I do find it interesting that twenty years onward would find at least one of Diana's sons involved as a first responder in search and rescue/air ambulance transportation.
As I believe that you and I have discussed everything involved regarding the accident, that there is no reason to continue on with the discussion. :)
Quote from: TLLK on September 29, 2018, 05:34:01 AM
:) I never stated that they had anything to do with medical treatments. I said that William worked with the team that transported patients and as a EAAA helicopter co-pilot/pilot he would be involved in transportation of victims/patients.
I also stated that Harry observed the medics in action.
William had to have flexible hours as he was also performing royal engagements.
I do find it interesting that twenty years onward would find at least one of Diana's sons involved as a first responder in search and rescue/air ambulance transportation.
As I believe that you and I have discussed everything involved regarding the accident, that there is no reason to continue on with the discussion. :)
I agree that this is a sad subject, and has been thrashed out.. but I am interested in the idea that perhaps William at least chose to do this kind of work, perhaps because of his mother. I think some of it was just because he enjoyed flying, but it does involve helping people who have suffered injury or accident...
so what? it was a valuable job, and one he may have chosen because of his mother's accident and death... And sicne he is performng full time royal duties now I don't know why you are going on as if he were doing nothing..
QuoteI agree that this is a sad subject, and has been thrashed out.. but I am interested in the idea that perhaps William at least chose to do this kind of work, perhaps because of his mother. I think some of it was just because he enjoyed flying, but it does involve helping people who have suffered injury or accident...
Yes I do find it interesting that he did want to be involved in helping people with the skills he'd learned in the RAF. Since he couldn't fulfill that childhood dream of being a policeman, this was still an opportunity to do something that would assist people in need.
QuoteChildhood dream of being a policeman? He was about 5 or 6 it is the same about a 5 year old wanting to be a cowboy and play dress up. He had no serious plans IMO.
Yes I do believe that 5 or 6 years of age would fit into the description of "childhood." :) At some point in his youth, Prince William came to the realization that was not an option for him if the monarchy continued during his lifetime.
Since that job was out of the question, he found another one in which he could provide aid to others in distress.
Quote
William was not really involved directly in dealing with the patients, the medics did that work he flew or co-piloted the copters
Actually a tree surgeon named Jim Schembri recalled that during his own experience with EAAA that William was the one who held his head for thirty minutes as he was being tended to by the medics. If the medic requires the assistance of another crew member, they can direct them to assist with patients. :) It's a necessary part of being a member of the team that crew members assist one another.
Tree surgeon rescued by Prince William 'didn't realise it was him' - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2016-03-30/treesurgeon-rescued-by-prince-william-didnt-realise-it-was-him/)
Quote
A tree surgeon who was rescued by Prince William, after being knocked unconscious when the tree he was working on "fell back on him", has admitted that he "didn't realise" he was being saved by a royal at the time.
Jim Schembri, 37, who was rescued by the Air Ambulance service after his accident says the Prince held his head still and gave him treatment for half an hour but in his injured state he failed to recognise him.
He even embarrassingly joked that he hoped the Royal wasn't flying his rescue helicopter.
Speaking on Good Morning Britain, Schembri said "it wasn't until they actually loaded me into the helicopter that it clicked".
@TLLK while I am sorry about your brother it must still be very painful each case is very different depending on the injuries. While I am not a doctor or nurse or in the field of healthcare, I believe that faster a person involved such a serious accident needs to get to a medical facility quickly to be assessed. In some cases even with quick medical assistance such as your brothers there is nothing further that can be done and perhaps that could have been the case with Diana. I just think the extremely long time it took for to get her from the car even into the ambulance wasted precious minutes as the slow journey. If Diana had been airlifted to hospital and her injuries diagnosed immediately the outcome would have been very different. While I don't believe there was any conspiracy to kill Diana I find it curious that the first reports only said she suffered a broken arm well that is a huge difference to having a torn pulmonary vein and displaced heart.
Quote from: Trudie on September 29, 2018, 03:20:44 PM
@TLLK while I am sorry about your brother it must still be very painful each case is very different depending on the injuries. While I am not a doctor or nurse or in the field of healthcare, I believe that faster a person involved such a serious accident needs to get to a medical facility quickly to be assessed. In some cases even with quick medical assistance such as your brothers there is nothing further that can be done and perhaps that could have been the case with Diana. I just think the extremely long time it took for to get her from the car even into the ambulance wasted precious minutes as the slow journey. If Diana had been airlifted to hospital and her injuries diagnosed immediately the outcome would have been very different. While I don't believe there was any conspiracy to kill Diana I find it curious that the first reports only said she suffered a broken arm well that is a huge difference to having a torn pulmonary vein and displaced heart.
Thank you
@Trudie for your kind words. :) At the time of her son's death, our mother was still working as an ICU nurse and in house cardiac care educator for her hospital. Once she spoke at length to the attending trauma team physician, she knew that the extent of his injuries were truly beyond the powers and skills of any experienced surgeon. Even with the quick action of the Highway Patrol, paramedics, ambulance and trauma care team it just wasn't possible for him to survive.
Fortunately in the case of my mother's and sister's separate accidents, the quick response did work in their favor. :thumbsup:
Regarding Diana-I certainly understand why there are still questions, but since I believe that the topic has been exhausted, I'm not going to comment further upon it. :)
QuoteWilliam could have held his head but the medics did the work on helping to save him.
And being directed by the lead medic by helping to stabilize the patient with a possible spinal injury is all part of being a member of the team. :)
QuoteChildren fantasize about wanting to be certain things when they grow up. And they even get costumes to wear. Many of these aspirations are just transitory.
Which is a part of being a child, though some kids do eventually become what they played at when they were young. :)
Much like this little girl from the San Fernando Valley. :happy: She was able to fulfill two of her childhood dreams. The first one (acting) came with many, many rejections at first but eventually she did land that full time role. The other was much less likely to happen but it did! :happy:
Meghan Markle Once Wrote About Wanting To Be A Princess | HuffPost (https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/meghan-markle-wrote-princess-2014_us_5b71a860e4b0bdd0620b6834)
Quote?Little girls dream of being princesses. I, for one, was all about She-Ra, Princess of Power,? wrote Markle, who was starring on USA?s ?Suits? at the time. ?And grown women seem to retain this childhood fantasy. Just look at the pomp and circumstance surrounding the royal wedding and endless conversation about Princess Kate.?
Quote from: TLLK on September 30, 2018, 04:16:53 PM
IMHO having the heir and the heir-to-the-heir serve in the military in a non-combat role utilizing the skills that they learned during their training would be an acceptable alternative to having them in a combat role. AFAIK not one of the 20th or 21st century designated heirs to the throne were involved in combat. They've mostly been limited to non-combat ones. (Although Jordan's King Abdullah II did reportedly have a combat role, he was not the designated heir to the throne at the time.)
I think that perhaps Will's painful memory of Diana's death did lead him to go for the Role in SAR that he ended up in...It was using the skills he had learned in his time in the Military... and as an heir to the throne he would never have been allowed to get into combat...
Military training also gives the Royal Heads of State a broader understanding of the roles that each branch of their nation's armed forces as each are typically the head of in costitutional monarchies.
Quote from: TLLK on October 01, 2018, 01:28:29 AM
Military training also gives the Royal Heads of State a broader understanding of the roles that each branch of their nation's armed forces as each are typically the head of in costitutional monarchies.
Yes they have to do some military service, so as to preserve the link between the armed forces and the crown..
Princess Diana's fatal injury was tiny, just in the wrong place, says DR RICHARD SHEPHERD | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894457/Princess-Dianas-fatal-injury-tiny-just-wrong-place-says-DR-RICHARD-SHEPHERD.html)
According to this doctor she had a specific injury that was very unusual. Besides that there were other factors that added to the outcome such a the time it took to get her to the hospital, if I understood him correctly.
Sounds reasonable to me. She was the princess of Wales. Why wasn't she given more priority? By that I mean rushed to the hospital etc. There are footballers, celebs etc. that are given more "top notch" treatment than she did.
I also wanted to add, that NO ONE should wait for that long to get to a hospital. Ridiculous in my opinion.
The idea that they should have traveled in that second rate car should have been dismissed. Foolish idea, in my opinion.
That's funny that he said that Trevor RJ was wearing a seat belt, since I understnad that the evidence reviewed at the later inquest said that no one was wearing one.
And a "tiny tear"? As far as I know her heart was pushed right out of where it shoud be, to the other side of her chest. hrdly a small injury
There were lots of things that should and shouldn't have happened on that fateful night. However, from what I understand the French ambulances are set up very differently to UK and US ones, more like mini operating theatres in a way. And so Diana was being given treatment on the way to the hospital which necessitated the ambulance slowing down and almost stopping at times. There's a whole thread on here about the accident and the treatment Diana received afterwards actually.
Quote from: Curryong on April 07, 2019, 01:33:08 PM
There were lots of things that should and shouldn't have happened on that fateful night. However, from what I understand the French ambulances are set up very differently to UK and US ones, more like mini operating theatres in a way. And so Diana was being given treatment on the way to the hospital which necessitated the ambulance slowing down and almost stopping at times. There's a whole thread on here about the accident and the treatment Diana received afterwards actually.
The main thing that should not have happened was using an untrained, unlicensed driver who had had a couple of drinks..not having a back up car, and people should have belted up. I didn't read all that article as it seemed to be mostly about other cases but from what was said I thought at the inquest was that NONE of the passangers had been belted in.. and that was a very thorough investigation... And from what I can recall, Diana's heart was pushed right out of place... so it was a very serious injury.
She had a heart attack when they took her out of the car, and that meant they had to stop and stabilise her, and she had other heart attacks in the ambulance, which meant they had to slow down or stop to stabilise her. Had they not done so, she would have died in the ambulance...
An
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 07, 2019, 12:00:25 PM
Princess Diana's fatal injury was tiny, just in the wrong place, says DR RICHARD SHEPHERD | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6894457/Princess-Dianas-fatal-injury-tiny-just-wrong-place-says-DR-RICHARD-SHEPHERD.html)
According to this doctor she had a specific injury that was very unusual. Besides that there were other factors that added to the outcome such a the time it took to get her to the hospital, if I understood him correctly.
Sounds reasonable to me. She was the princess of Wales. Why wasn't she given more priority? By that I mean rushed to the hospital etc. There are footballers, celebs etc. that are given more "top notch" treatment than she did.
I also wanted to add, that NO ONE should wait for that long to get to a hospital. Ridiculous in my opinion.
The idea that they should have traveled in that second rate car should have been dismissed. Foolish idea, in my opinion.
There are two types of emergency care practices that are used in the Western World and both are highly regarded and respected by medical professionals for different reasons. The first is Scoop and run -UK, USA, Australia, Canada (English speaking nations). Patient is treated by paramedics/ambulance team who start emergency treatment and then quickly transport the patient to the nearest hospital that has an emergency room. Paramedics are in contact with doctors who advise them and await their arrival.
Second option- Stay and Play- Practiced in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc..The emergency room comes to the patient. A portable ER and its team (ER doctor, nurses etc..) come to the site of the accident/emergency. Patient is treated on site with the notion that it is best to provide the care immediately. Often times the patient doesn't need to be admitted to the hospital as they've already been treated by the ER team. If patient needs to be transported, it is done slowly to not disrupt the continued work of the team. Patient is transported to the nearest hospital with ER/trauma facility.
Both practices are considered to be excellent and have similar successful patient outcomes.
Diana's injury was initially small but as she was being removed from the interior of the car, she had to be positioned in a semi-seated placement in order to extract her. At that time, the tear opened and she went into cardiac arrest. The ER doctor on site made the responsible choice to stabilize her. She couldn't be safely transported until they'd been able to resume a stable heart rate.
Diana was transported slowly because the slightest movements were observed to be sending her into cardiac arrest. She was then transported to the nearest hospital with trauma care. The closer hospitals didn't provide that type of service.
Regarding her injury, trauma care physicians were in agreement that her injury was fatal. :no:
QuoteHer initial period of consciousness and initial survival after the accident is characteristic of a tear to a vital vein. Anatomically, it?s hidden away, deep in the centre of the chest.
Veins, of course, are not subject to the same high-pressure pumping as arteries. They bleed much more slowly. In fact, they bleed so slowly that identifying the problem is hard enough. And, if it is identified, repairing it is even harder.
Her specific injury is so rare that in my entire career I don?t believe I?ve seen another.
Diana?s was a very small injury ? but in the wrong place. Diana?s death is a classic example of the way we say, after almost every death: if only. If only she had hit the seat in front at a slightly different angle. If only she had been thrown forward 10mph more slowly.
If only she had been put in an ambulance immediately. But the biggest if only, in Diana?s case, was within her own control.
If only she had been wearing a seat belt. Had she been restrained, she would probably have appeared in public two days later with a black eye, perhaps a bit breathless from the fractured ribs and with a broken arm in a sling.
The pathology of her death is, I believe, indisputable. But around that tiny, fatal tear in a pulmonary vein are woven many other facts, some of which are sufficiently opaque to allow a multitude of theories to blossom.
But I entirely concurred with the findings of the inquiry. It was a tragic accident.
It seems to me that there's a big difference between a tear in a vein.. and someone's heart being pushed right out of place.. They might both be fatal, but if her heart was indeed shoved out of place, the impact was incredibly severe....
Quote from: amabel on April 07, 2019, 01:38:23 PM
The main thing that should not have happened was using an untrained, unlicensed driver who had had a couple of drinks..not having a back up car, and people should have belted up. I didn't read all that article as it seemed to be mostly about other cases but from what was said I thought at the inquest was that NONE of the passangers had been belted in.. and that was a very thorough investigation... And from what I can recall, Diana's heart was pushed right out of place... so it was a very serious injury.
She had a heart attack when they took her out of the car, and that meant they had to stop and stabilise her, and she had other heart attacks in the ambulance, which meant they had to slow down or stop to stabilise her. Had they not done so, she would have died in the ambulance...
An
Trevor Rees Jones has amnesia. So he can't tell us why he belted himself up and neglected to have all buckle up or better yet check the safety belts. Every man for himself his motto
There were reports that the seatbelts would not buckle up and how extraordinary that Diana always buckled up routinely and did not do it that one night. Makes no sense. Yet people still try to pin it on Diana. Shameful
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 01:50:21 PM
Quote from: TLLK on April 07, 2019, 01:39:47 PM
There are two types of emergency care practices that are used in the Western World and both are highly regarded and respected by medical professionals for different reasons. The first is Scoop and run -UK, USA, Australia, Canada (English speaking nations). Patient is treated by paramedics/ambulance team who start emergency treatment and then quickly transport the patient to the nearest hospital that has an emergency room. Paramedics are in contact with doctors who advise them and await their arrival.
Second option- Stay and Play- Practiced in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc..The emergency room comes to the patient. A portable ER and its team (ER doctor, nurses etc..) come to the site of the accident/emergency. Patient is treated on site with the notion that it is best to provide the care immediately. Often times the patient doesn't need to be admitted to the hospital as they've already been treated by the ER team. If patient needs to be transported, it is done slowly to not disrupt the continued work of the team. Patient is transported to the nearest hospital with ER/trauma facility.
Both practices are considered to be excellent and have similar successful patient outcomes.
Diana's injury was initially small but as she was being removed from the interior of the car, she had to be positioned in a semi-seated placement in order to extract her. At that time, the tear opened and she went into cardiac arrest. The ER doctor on site made the responsible choice to stabilize her. She couldn't be safely transported until they'd been able to resume a stable heart rate.
Diana was transported slowly because the slightest movements were observed to be sending her into cardiac arrest. She was then transported to the nearest hospital with trauma care. The closer hospitals didn't provide that type of service.
Regarding her injury, trauma care physicians were in agreement that her injury was fatal. :no:
Diana needed to get to a hospital operating table and two hospitals were passed on route. So the "treatment" she got was pathetic. In the US she would have been airlifted to the Nearest HOspital. I see no excuses for inept medical care.
That ambulance was no substitute for an operating room.
so if people tried to buckle up, how come they dind't say that they wanted another car with functioning seat belts?
The man has amnesia now and the others are dead. How can it be determined.
Quote from: amabel on April 07, 2019, 01:48:26 PM
It seems to me that there's a big difference between a tear in a vein.. and someone's heart being pushed right out of place.. They might both be fatal, but if her heart was indeed shoved out of place, the impact was incredibly severe....
Yes and unfortunately for Diana this occurred as she was an unrestrained passenger who was in a car crash. The impact killed two people immediately.
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:06:22 PM
The man has amnesia now and the others are dead. How can it be determined.
I think it is obvious that no one tried to belt up.. if you usually wear a belt and you get into a car where the belts are not working you get out and wiat for a new car
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:12:58 PM
There are reports the seatbelts malfunctioned. DIana's own sisters and people who knew her said she Always Buckled UP. So this seems very strange to me. The security guard has amnesia he seemed to be thinking every man for himself and not seeing the belts were functioning and how did he let the "drunk" driver behind the wheel. the overly slow ambulance that passed Two Hospitals did her in. HEart experts have said so publicly.
Dodi was the one who chose the plan of having Henri Paul drive.. and if Rhys Jones had tried to overrule him, Dodi would have just gone ahead without him...
@oak_and_cedar - Here is one of the threads that
@Curryong referred to in her post.
Diana worn seatbelt she would have been at Harry?s wedding says pathologist (http://www.royalinsight.net/forum/index.php?topic=90195.0)
If Rees Jones smelled a lot of alcohol on Paul he would not have let him drive. And if the others smelled it he would have been stopped. The guard has amnesia and can't tell. There were mix ups in the test results for Henri Paul and if he drank so much he was seen deftly tying his shoes after he allegedly was "drunk."
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:12:58 PM
There are reports the seatbelts malfunctioned. DIana's own sisters and people who knew her said she Always Buckled UP. So this seems very strange to me. The security guard has amnesia he seemed to be thinking every man for himself and not seeing the belts were functioning and how did he let the "drunk" driver behind the wheel. the overly slow ambulance that passed Two Hospitals did her in. HEart experts have said so publicly
Why is it obvious amabel? You were not there and the only witness has amnesia. HOw do you know DIana did not pull the belt over and it did not work to "click in." There were reports the seatbelts did not work. Blaming Diana seems to be the "excuse" used when there were so many unexplained circumstances and the only witness conveniently can't remember.
so if she pulled the belt over and it failed to click.. all she had to do was say "this belt's not working.. " and then "I'm not going in this car if I dotn have a seat belt..."
The only one wearing a seatbelt was the sole survivor.
He has amnesia so he can't explain why. Was it every man for himself. He was negligent if he did not ensure the others belted up.
This is another series of trashing DIana that it was HER fault that she died. Utter nonsense.
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 02:20:44 PM
This is another point of view. By an expert
'They should have saved Diana's life' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1325881/They-should-have-saved-Dianas-life.html)
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:16:48 PM
If Rees Jones smelled a lot of alcohol on Paul he would not have let him drive. And if the others smelled it he would have been stopped. The guard has amnesia and can't tell. There were mix ups in the test results for Henri Paul and if he drank so much he was seen deftly tying his shoes after he allegedly was "drunk."
He wasn't "Drunk" necessarily but he had had a couple of dirnks.. he was not a trained driver.. and he had also been taking Prozac.. According to the guards, Paul was smoiking a cigar which would have masked the smell of one or 2 drinks..
It wasn't up to Trevor Jones, It was Dodi's plan and the guards were not happy with it.. but Dodi was the one in charge. H Paul wasn't a trained driver. He wasn't a driver at all and he had been off duty.. so he had had a couple of drinks.. but he was not likely to admit this to Dodi, htat he had been dirnking and could not drive...
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 02:23:33 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:19:52 PM
He has amnesia so he can't explain why. Was it every man for himself. He was negligent if he did not ensure the others belted up.
This is another series of trashing DIana that it was HER fault that she died. Utter nonsense.
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 02:20:44 PM
This is another point of view. By an expert
'They should have saved Diana's life' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1325881/They-should-have-saved-Dianas-life.html)
If she ahd had a seat belt on, she would have had a better chance of survival.
@Curryong @TLLK Thank you both for mentioning and giving link to the other thread.
I just thought that this dr. had another take on it so I thought i'd bring it up.
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 03:02:02 PM
Quote from: TLLK on April 07, 2019, 01:39:47 PM
There are two types of emergency care practices that are used in the Western World and both are highly regarded and respected by medical professionals for different reasons. The first is Scoop and run -UK, USA, Australia, Canada (English speaking nations). Patient is treated by paramedics/ambulance team who start emergency treatment and then quickly transport the patient to the nearest hospital that has an emergency room. Paramedics are in contact with doctors who advise them and await their arrival.
Second option- Stay and Play- Practiced in France, Germany, the Netherlands etc..The emergency room comes to the patient. A portable ER and its team (ER doctor, nurses etc..) come to the site of the accident/emergency. Patient is treated on site with the notion that it is best to provide the care immediately. Often times the patient doesn't need to be admitted to the hospital as they've already been treated by the ER team. If patient needs to be transported, it is done slowly to not disrupt the continued work of the team. Patient is transported to the nearest hospital with ER/trauma facility.
Both practices are considered to be excellent and have similar successful patient outcomes.
Diana's injury was initially small but as she was being removed from the interior of the car, she had to be positioned in a semi-seated placement in order to extract her. At that time, the tear opened and she went into cardiac arrest. The ER doctor on site made the responsible choice to stabilize her. She couldn't be safely transported until they'd been able to resume a stable heart rate.
Diana was transported slowly because the slightest movements were observed to be sending her into cardiac arrest. She was then transported to the nearest hospital with trauma care. The closer hospitals didn't provide that type of service.
Regarding her injury, trauma care physicians were in agreement that her injury was fatal. :no:
In my opinion, patients should not be treated by paramedics only when the injuries are so severe. Surgeons and trauma doctors undergo entirely different education and they are the ones "fit" to deal with this sort of thing.
Diana should have been transported IMMEDIATELY to a hospital and been dealt with by the appropriate personel in my opinion.
Weren't there other doctors, such as that Barnard guy who said she could be saved?
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 03:02:39 PM
Quote from: amabel on April 07, 2019, 01:48:26 PM
It seems to me that there's a big difference between a tear in a vein.. and someone's heart being pushed right out of place.. They might both be fatal, but if her heart was indeed shoved out of place, the impact was incredibly severe....
I'm not entirely sure but didn't this sort of injury occur in other accidents. So it was hardly "unusual" so to speak.
Its not whether it was unusual or not. THe point is that it was a very serious injury and very possible that her life could not be saved. She could not be transported to hospital fast because she had heart attacks in the ambulance. Removing her from the car had been a difficult operation and had caused a heart attack. Any movement was clearly dangerous for her so they had to go slowly and stop when she went into cardiac arrest, to stabilise her...
QuoteI'm not entirely sure but didn't this sort of injury occur in other accidents. So it was hardly "unusual" so to speak.
While I believe that it is true that this type of injury has occurred in past accidents, according to the surgeon who wrote the article it is rare to come across one during a typical career.
Quote from: amabel on April 07, 2019, 03:31:26 PM
Its not whether it was unusual or not. THe point is that it was a very serious injury and very possible that her life could not be saved. She could not be transported to hospital fast because she had heart attacks in the ambulance. Removing her from the car had been a difficult operation and had caused a heart attack. Any movement was clearly dangerous for her so they had to go slowly and stop when she went into cardiac arrest, to stabilise her...
It was possible that her life could not have been saved. But then again it could have been possible that it would.
Doctors treat severe injuries all the time. It does not neccessarily mean a death sentence, in my opinion.
Don't remember where I read it but didn't they drive by hospital because they didn't have the "appropriate" doctors there?
If they wanted to go slow why didn't they go to the nearest hospital and then rush the doctors there instead?
Why didn't they airlift her? They could still be working on stabilizing her there and she would have reached any hospital sooner.
@oak_and_cedar -The nearest hospital to the accident site was not a trauma center and lacked the facilities, equipment and specialized team to treat her injuries.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 07, 2019, 03:38:54 PM
It was possible that her life could not have been saved. But then again it could have been possible that it would.
Doctors treat severe injuries all the time. It does not neccessarily mean a death sentence, in my opinion.
Don't remember where I read it but didn't they drive by hospital because they didn't have the "appropriate" doctors there?
If they wanted to go slow why didn't they go to the nearest hospital and then rush the doctors there instead?
Why didn't they airlift her? They could still be working on stabilizing her there and she would have reached any hospital sooner.
It is not always possible to airlift, and had they doen so, its possible that the movement might have set off another heart attack. If they had moved trauma teams around, they might not have had the appropriate equipment in the "nearest" hospital.. or they might have left some hospital without a trauma team. they did the best they could. Rushing her to any hospital was clearly dangerous because she had heart attacks and they then had to stop to stabilise her...
We don't know if it was "impossible" to airlift in her case.
She had a heart attack in the ambulance so it's not like it was much safer.
She still would have people tending to her in a helicopter.
She NEEDED appropriate doctors working on her as soon as possible. This should have been their main focus in my opinion.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 07, 2019, 03:49:32 PM
We don't know if it was "impossible" to airlift in her case.
She had a heart attack in the ambulance so it's not like it was much safer.
She still would have people tending to her in a helicopter.
She NEEDED appropriate doctors working on her as soon as possible. This should have been their main focus in my opinion.
I would say that it was problaby difficult to bring a helicopter near enough to the underpass and an ambulance was the best option. (I assume that the emergency services knew the city well enough to make the best choice).
Moving her to a helicopter would most likely have been a bigger job and more likely to set off another heart attack. She had a serious one when being removed from the car and they had to spend a lot of time stabilising her. With the ambulance they were alble to stop, when she had another cardiac arrest and give her dopamine and do CPR.. THey got her to hospital as soon as they could and then they spent a lot of time trying to save her life.. but she had been very serously injured and it was not possible to save her. Dodi and Henri Paul were both killed on impact.. it was a horrendous crash
Double post auto-merged: April 07, 2019, 04:29:03 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 07, 2019, 02:17:57 PM
Diana could have been trying to buckle up the seatbelt when the car was in motion and at that speed they could have caused a collision if they stopped short.
Honestly so much hope that it was all Diana's fault that she died. Shameful
You don't wait till a car Is going at speed to fasten a seat belt.. you do it when you get into the car.
From Fox News:
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/princess-diana-should-not-have-died-from-car-crash-injury-expert-says
If only..wouldha, shouldha, couldha, and yes, IF she had only been buckled up in a seatbelt. That's the sad epitaph to the whole saga really.
So many experts and way too late with their unsolicited opinions. I rather suspect that all these "might have been" speculations end up rubbing old wounds.
Quote from: Curryong on April 08, 2019, 07:09:42 AM
If only..wouldha, shouldha, couldha, and yes, IF she had only been buckled up in a seatbelt. That's the sad epitaph to the whole saga really.
She may have wanted to buckle up the belt malfunctioned. So many things not discovered because the survivor has amnesia.
The healthcare was atrocious. Once she got into the very slow ambulance she was doomed.
Quote from: Curryong on April 08, 2019, 07:09:42 AM
If only..wouldha, shouldha, couldha, and yes, IF she had only been buckled up in a seatbelt. That's the sad epitaph to the whole saga really.
I have to agree
@Curryong. This is truly a very sad epitaph for an accident that could have been prevented. :no: IMVHO this is the real tragedy that was dealt to the victims and their families.
QuoteI rather suspect that all these "might have been" speculations end up rubbing old wounds.
Fortunately the Windsors and the Spencers accepted the verdict of the official inquest that this was a tragic accident. Obviously Mr. Al Fayed has not been able to accept this and thus his conspiracy theories have been promoted through his words and actions.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=operation+paget+report+seatbelts (
Please note that this document summarizes the testimony of the SAMU -first responders and the medical team at the accident site and the hospital. It does contain details that might be distressing to some readers.)Two separate investigations noted in the Operation Paget official inquest determined that th seat belts were not being worn though Trevor Rees-Jones appears to have been putting his on at the moment of impact. Seat belts were determined to be in working order and any displacement occurred during impact and not before.
QuoteThe French investigators examined the seat belt systems and determined that none
were being worn at the time of the crash apart from the front right seat belt. The
suggestion was made that Trevor Rees-Jones may have been in the process of putting
on his seat belt at the moment of impact. The report did not indicate that the seat belt
systems were examined to ascertain whether they were in a serviceable condition.
Operation Paget?s view is that none of the seat belts were being worn at the time of
the impact, including that of Trevor Rees-Jones. From the nature of marks found on
his seat belt, it is considered unlikely that he was even in the process of attempting to
put it on at all at the time of the crash.
David Price?s examination of the seat belts showed that they were in a good
operational condition with the exception of the rear right seat belt, which was found to
be jammed in the retracted position because part of the internal mechanism had
become displaced.
In relation to this finding, the evidence strongly supports this displacement occurring
after the collision. This was confirmed by direct contact with the French expert,
Serge Moreau. He found it to be in proper working order at the time of his
examination in October 1998. He also confirmed that all the seat belts were in a
serviceable condition after the crash. (Operation Paget Message 947)[/quote
Double post auto-merged: April 08, 2019, 01:19:33 PM
QuoteThe ambulance took approximately 26 minutes to complete the four-mile journey
from the Alma underpass to the Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital. This included the stop at
the Gare d?Austerlitz ordered by Dr Martino because of the drop in the blood pressure
of the Princess of Wales and the necessity to deal with it. The ambulance was
travelling slowly on his express instructions. The doctor was concerned about the
Princess of Wales? blood pressure and the effects on her medical condition of
deceleration and acceleration.
The time from the crash itself (12.23am) until arrival at hospital (2.06am) was one
hour and forty-three minutes. When considering this time period, one must take into
account the following;
? the time taken for the arrival of the emergency services
? medical assessments of all casualties
? the removal of a critically injured and awkwardly positioned casualty from the
car
? external cardio pulmonary resuscitation carried out in the roadway
? transfer to the SAMU ambulance
? further detailed medical examination in the ambulance
? ambulance transport to the hospital
The French response at the scene of medical emergencies was, in general terms,
different from that in the United Kingdom. The French focused more on stabilisation
and delivery of treatment at the scene before transportation to hospital.
In this instance, Dr Martino, the SAMU doctor, arrived at the scene quickly. There
were difficulties in providing medical treatment to the Princess of Wales in the
confines of a badly damaged vehicle.
Whether earlier transportation of the Princess of Wales to hospital would have been
more successful is unknown. This would essentially be a comparison of two systems
Page
(This is the timeline for the removal from the vehicle, medical stabilization and arrival at the hospital.)
Summary why Diana and Trevor were not transported to a closer hospital. Maps included of the hospitals in the area of those only PSP was the one designated with the facilities to care for two patients with multiple injuries related to trauma. Any other trauma care hospitals were located in the suburbs and were too far away. The summary of the inquest's findings were that Diana received the appropriate care and that protocol was followed. The doctors at the crash site selected PSP because of its facilities, team and one of the best trauma specialists was on duty that night. One of the nation's top cardiac surgeons was called in to lead her surgery team.)
QuoteInterviewed by Operation Paget - Statement 178
Dr Lejay referred to a report that he wrote at the time of the incident, computer
records and audio recordings of calls, in order to provide Operation Paget with the
following details.
At around 1.20am he and Dr Derossi discussed the medical assessment of the Princess
of Wales and decided that the most appropriate hospital for her treatment was the
Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital. At 1.25am Dr Lejay contacted the hospital and Professor
Bruno Riou agreed to the request. Dr Lejay passed this agreement to Dr Martino by
radio at around 1.30am.
Decision
Dr Lejay took responsibility for the selection of the hospital and in his statement to
Operation Paget said he based this on his experience and the following factors:
? The Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital had the best facilities with the best-trained staff
to treat casualties with multiple injuries
? He was aware that Professor Bruno Riou was on duty that night and was
particularly skilled to treat the Princess of Wales? injuries
? He was informed from the scene that the Princess of Wales had a head injury
and it was his belief that the Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital was on the rota to
accept casualties with head injuries that night
? The Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital was one of the nearest main reception centres
for treating multiple injury casualties
Arrangements
she arrived alive in the hospital to go surgery... from which i read 'protocol' saved her few times before ambulance arriving in the hospital...
Quote from: royalanthropologist on April 08, 2019, 11:55:17 AM
So many experts and way too late with their unsolicited opinions. I rather suspect that all these "might have been" speculations end up rubbing old wounds.
It is generally considered bad professional etiquette for doctors to discuss other doctor's work in this way, publicly, when they may not be experts in the field and weren't there at the time
Double post auto-merged: April 08, 2019, 04:40:13 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 08, 2019, 12:46:24 PM
She may have wanted to buckle up the belt malfunctioned. So many things not discovered because the survivor has amnesia.
The healthcare was atrocious. Once she got into the very slow ambulance she was doomed.
the ambulance was not "slow," it had to go slowly because Diana kept having heart attacks...
as for the seat belts the report is that they were not "malfunctioning", but that they had not been worn
Quote from: sandy on April 08, 2019, 04:45:26 PM
It was slow, it took 2 Hours, and she was bleeding to death. Time was of the essence.
I read a report that the seatbelts did not work. And seatbelts may not have saved her, the impact was great and they don't always prevent severe injury or death. I think what killed her was her in the slow moving ambulance.
If I had a loved one in an ambulance for two hours not getting proper care I would not remotely think that oh this is what they do so it's OK. Time was of the essence.
If you think taking 2 hours in an ambulance while someone is bleeding is OK and "not too slow" , that's your choice.
The report in the inquest which was a very thorough investigation, showed that the seat belts had not been used.. and that they were working. So - I think we can conclude that they were not malfunctioning but nobody put their belt on.
and I'll just say it one more time. The ambulance had to stop and go slowly because Diana was having heart attacks. If they went faster, she would have died in the ambulance...
Still too long. The ambulance moved slowly she should have gotten to the hospital STAT. She was also left sitting in the car before any help was given her. The photographers were busy taking pictures and then she was left sitting for a while. Disgraceful
Quote from: sandy on April 08, 2019, 05:30:27 PM
Still too long. The ambulance moved slowly she should have gotten to the hospital STAT. She was also left sitting in the car before any help was given her. The photographers were busy taking pictures and then she was left sitting for a while. Disgraceful
She was not "left sitting".. as I recall she was taken out as soon as possible, since she was sandwhiced in the back and they had to cut the car open to get her out, and the operation was very difficult and dangerous. You can hardly blame the rescue workers for what the photographers did, and as I recall they said that the paparazzi did not get in the way, albeit they did take photos.. But ther's nothing the emergency services could do about that, they had to concentrate on getting Diana out and Trevor RJ.
And for the umpteenth time, the ambulance could not go fast because any jolt would cuase Diana to have a heart attack and tehn they would have to stop and get her heart going again. if they did not stop, she would have died from the heart incidents....
Quote from: amabel on April 07, 2019, 04:00:09 PM
I would say that it was problaby difficult to bring a helicopter near enough to the underpass and an ambulance was the best option. (I assume that the emergency services knew the city well enough to make the best choice).
Moving her to a helicopter would most likely have been a bigger job and more likely to set off another heart attack. She had a serious one when being removed from the car and they had to spend a lot of time stabilising her. With the ambulance they were alble to stop, when she had another cardiac arrest and give her dopamine and do CPR.. THey got her to hospital as soon as they could and then they spent a lot of time trying to save her life.. but she had been very serously injured and it was not possible to save her. Dodi and Henri Paul were both killed on impact.. it was a horrendous crash
They went with their routine. It was not impossible for her to be airlifted. We don't know if she would have had a bigger heart attack. Airlifting is usual in some parts of the world. If it brought such difficulties it would not have been used at all. Ambulance personel are not substitutes for top doctors experienced and trained in their fields. They could have brought the best doctors available to her.
They died on impact yes. But Diana didn't.
Double post auto-merged: April 08, 2019, 05:42:44 PM
Quote from: TLLK on April 08, 2019, 01:25:43 PM
Summary why Diana and Trevor were not transported to a closer hospital. Maps included of the hospitals in the area of those only PSP was the one designated with the facilities to care for two patients with multiple injuries related to trauma. Any other trauma care hospitals were located in the suburbs and were too far away. The summary of the inquest's findings were that Diana received the appropriate care and that protocol was followed. The doctors at the crash site selected PSP because of its facilities, team and one of the best trauma specialists was on duty that night. One of the nation's top cardiac surgeons was called in to lead her surgery team.)
If her blood pressure kept dropping why didn't they stop in the nearest hospital and rushed the doctor there? It was not like they were in a third world country where everything had to be built from "scratch".
The car was a second rate one, which had been used and been in an accident before If I recall correctly. It's not beyond the realm of possibilites that the belts would have "jammed".
She was removed as fast as they could do it, given her injuries and the state of the car. Yes there were photographers but they did not interfere with the rescue, they just took pictures. I can't see how the emergency services can be blamed for the actions of photographers...
She had a serious heart attack when they removed her from the car and she had to be stabilised, Then she had another one in the ambulance.
There was no point, again in taking her to a hospital which did not have the staff or facilties to treat her injuries. they took her to the nearest hospital which had the equipment and staff who could treat her. If she had gone to a nearer hospital, she would have had to wait for staff to come and its possible that they would not have the equipment and facilities to give her treatment.. and you can't just shuffle them around. She was kept alive by the ambulance staff who got her to the Hospital and the operating theatre..and she got the best treatment avaialble but her injuries were too severe. Not everyone is saved, when there is a horrible crash like the one she was in. Dodi and Henri Paul were killed on impact.. Diana was seriously injured - her heart was displaced, and her vein torn.. She might have surivvied but the odds were very much againsit it...
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 06:10:18 PM
She was removed as fast as they could do it, given her injuries and the state of the car. Yes there were photographers but they did not interfere with the rescue, they just took pictures. I can't see how the emergency services can be blamed for the actions of photographers...
She had a serious heart attack when they removed her from the car and she had to be stabilised, Then she had another one in the ambulance.
There was no point, again in taking her to a hospital which did not have the staff or facilties to treat her injuries. they took her to the nearest hospital which had the equipment and staff who could treat her. If she had gone to a nearer hospital, she would have had to wait for staff to come and its possible that they would not have the equipment and facilities to give her treatment.. and you can't just shuffle them around. She was kept alive by the ambulance staff who got her to the Hospital and the operating theatre..and she got the best treatment avaialble but her injuries were too severe. Not everyone is saved, when there is a horrible crash like the one she was in. Dodi and Henri Paul were killed on impact.. Diana was seriously injured - her heart was displaced, and her vein torn.. She might have surivvied but the odds were very much againsit it...
Not if it took her between a half an hour to 1 hour 45 minutes to get there. The call would have gone out to plenty of specialists, as this is the city of Paris we are discussing. Some would have made it while Diana was being "treated" on the way to the hospital. I don't believe they would need to build a hospital room from "scratch". You have doctors in the army operating on heavy injuries sometimes in tents etc. that is in less than favorable circumstances. And they manage to save some of those heavily injured too. A heavy injury does not neccessarily mean a death sentence.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 08, 2019, 06:21:05 PM
Not if it took her between a half an hour to 1 hour 45 minutes to get there. The call would have gone out to plenty of specialists, as this is the city of Paris we are discussing. Some would have made it while Diana was being "treated" on the way to the hospital. I don't believe they would need to build a hospital room from "scratch". You have doctors in the army operating on heavy injuries sometimes in tents etc. that is in less than favorable circumstances. And they manage to save some of those heavily injured too. A heavy injury does not neccessarily mean a death sentence.
and it often does. Diana was a long time getting there because she almost died at the site of the acicdent. She had a severe heart attack and it took some time to stabilise her. She was in the ambulance, for about 26 minutes and again, her blood pressure dropped dangerously low during the journey and she had to be stabilised again. Again there was no point in going to a hospital which did not have the appropriate staff, and equipment. Do you really think that with a high profile paitent like the Princess of wales, that the medical services didn't do their best?
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 06:38:22 PM
and it often does. Diana was a long time getting there because she almost died at the site of the acicdent. She had a severe heart attack and it took some time to stabilise her. She was in the ambulance, for about 26 minutes and again, her blood pressure dropped dangerously low during the journey and she had to be stabilised again. Again there was no point in going to a hospital which did not have the appropriate staff, and equipment. Do you really think that with a high profile paitent like the Princess of wales, that the medical services didn't do their best?
To say often there has to be statistics to back it up. Heavy injuries can lead to death, but then again they may not.
If her blood pressure dropped and she was having a heart attack it meant she needed to get to a operating room IMMEDIATELY. They could have achieved this by airlifting her. A helicopter could have landed somewhere closeby. They could have transferred the staff to her. Paris is a great city with many knowledgable experts. They could have found a way or a compromise.
Yes, my personal opinion is that they didn't do their best.
Well where exacy could this helicopter have landed? I feel that the people who worked in Paris, who were used to attending injured people in that city, probalby knew whether they could land a copter near to her, or if moving her inot one would have been more dangerous than transporting her in an ambulance.
Do you really honestly think that they didn't do their best? Even if they didn't do their best for all people in accidents, which Im sure they did, you feel that with a patient like Diana, they felt "we don't need to try as hard as we posibley can to save this patient?"
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 06:51:02 PM
Well where exacy could this helicopter have landed? I feel that the people who worked in Paris, who were used to attending injured people in that city, probalby knew whether they could land a copter near to her, or if moving her inot one would have been more dangerous than transporting her in an ambulance.
Do you really honestly think that they didn't do their best? Even if they didn't do their best for all people in accidents, which Im sure they did, you feel that with a patient like Diana, they felt "we don't need to try as hard as we posibley can to save this patient?"
They had protocol to follow and perhaps were more inclined to do so.
Paris is not a city situated on "inhabitable" landscape. They could have found a place for a helicopter to land.
Yes, I believe especially with a patient like Diana they didn't do their best. If so they would have tried everything, including disregarding regular modus operandi and try other means of transportation.
How many and what experts did they call in? Even in a royal birth that's planned months ahead and is hopefully going smoothly they have other doctors and teams on standby, if I recall correctly.
The very fact that she had a heart attack in the ambulance means that there was no guarantee that this was the safest way to travel with regards to her situation. She still would have medical personel tending to her needs however she was moved.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 08, 2019, 07:01:40 PM
They had protocol to follow and perhaps were more inclined to do so.
Paris is not a city situated on "inhabitable" landscape. They could have found a place for a helicopter to land.
Yes, I believe especially with a patient like Diana they didn't do their best. If so they would have tried everything, including disregarding regular modus operandi and try other means of transportation.
How many and what experts did they call in? Even in a royal birth that's planned months ahead and is hopefully going smoothly they have other doctors and teams on standby, if I recall correctly.
The very fact that she had a heart attack in the ambulance means that there was no guarantee that this was the safest way to travel with regards to her situation. She still would have medical personel tending to her needs however she was moved.
You can't stop someone having a heart attack for goodness sake, when they have been seriously injuried and their heart has been displaced. ALl you can do is stabilise them, get the heart beating again and get them to surgery to try and repair it. Even then there are no guarantees. Not everyone is saved by emergency services or hospitals. How many experts were they supposed to call in? They could not denude the hospitals of Paris to attned to one patient.
I can't believe that you would think that the authorities didn't do their best.. do you think they thought that they would not make the utmost effort for anyone whom they were working on.. let alone when it was a high profile patient like Diana.
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 07:33:51 PM
You can't stop someone having a heart attack for goodness sake, when they have been seriously injuried and their heart has been displaced. ALl you can do is stabilise them, get the heart beating again and get them to surgery to try and repair it. Even then there are no guarantees. Not everyone is saved by emergency services or hospitals. How many experts were they supposed to call in? They could not denude the hospitals of Paris to attned to one patient.
I can't believe that you would think that the authorities didn't do their best.. do you think they thought that they would not make the utmost effort for anyone whom they were working on.. let alone when it was a high profile patient like Diana.
You can stabilize someone having a heart attack regardless of the means of transportation. The difference however would mean that one form of transportation would be moving Diana quicker to an operating room.
If surgeons went by gurantees there would be no one to save. You have to take risks and do the best with what is given.
If they have teams on standby for standard procedures they sure could have summoned at least some experts for an extraordinary "event" such as this.
They did not in my opinion.
No I believe you can't do CPR for example in a moving vehicle.. so it isn't possible to do it in a quickly moving ambulance and possibly not in a Helicopter. I would imagine not, as it would be moving...
And I would say that since her most serious heart episode seems to have occurred wehn she was cut out of the car, its possible that if they COULD get a copter to her, moving her into it, would have possibly cuased another attack. Which woudl then mean stopping to get her stable again.
Who are these experts who are on standby exactly? There are teams in different hospitals and those hospitals are designated for certain types of care. Diana was taken to the nearest hospital with a trauma centre. THey went slowly to avoid causing a fatal heart attack. When they got her there they did their best and worked on her for several hours but her injuries were too severe and she died. It is tragic, but they certainly didn't "not pull out all the stops for her."
Why woudlnt they?
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 06:51:02 PM
Well where exacy could this helicopter have landed? I feel that the people who worked in Paris, who were used to attending injured people in that city, probalby knew whether they could land a copter near to her, or if moving her inot one would have been more dangerous than transporting her in an ambulance.
Do you really honestly think that they didn't do their best? Even if they didn't do their best for all people in accidents, which Im sure they did, you feel that with a patient like Diana, they felt "we don't need to try as hard as we posibley can to save this patient?"
I agree. The Pont D' Alma is very narrow and tunnels under the Seine. Above ground this is an older part of the city with narrow roads on either side of the river's embankment. It's not a safe landing site IMHO The first responders and the SAMU team were aware that of the surroundings and believed that the safest mode of transportation for this medically fragile patient was via a ground ambulance.
Quote from: TLLK on April 09, 2019, 02:23:11 AM
I agree. The Pont D' Alma is very narrow and tunnels under the Seine. Above ground this is an older part of the city with narrow roads on either side of the river's embankment. It's not a safe landing site IMHO The first responders and the SAMU team were aware that of the surroundings and believed that the safest mode of transportation for this medically fragile patient was via a ground ambulance.
well I would imagine that the medical staff, and the ambulance and heli pilots and so on, know Paris better than we do, unless any of us are French and live tehre.. and that they would be able to work out whether it was possible to use a Helicopter or if it was not possible. I can't imagine them saying "we could send In a helicopter but we wont, lets opt for an ambulance....". They drove slowly because of her heart stopping... I can't imagine anyone really thinks that they drove slowly because they didn't feel like speeding..
I can't remember exactly what the tunnel is like, but it is not always possible to land helicopters in inner city streets and if they landed on a building they would have to get her up to it, which in her condition was obviously dangerous.. since she had been very bad after being cut out of the car.
Double post auto-merged: April 09, 2019, 07:41:46 AM
Quote from: sandy on April 09, 2019, 12:03:53 AM
DIana was not taken to the Nearest Hospital when she was bleeding to death.equipment can be transferred. It has been done.
They did not do their best.
Double post auto-merged: April 09, 2019, 12:06:23 AM
I can't believe you think they did their best.
The hospitals were "denuded" already when the first hospital was bypassed.
S
She did not get to the hospital in a timely fashion for heavens sakes.
How on earth were the hosptials "Denuded" when the first hospital was passed? I was referring to the idea that all sorts of doctors could have been rushed to one hospital to treat Diana, leaving the hosptials where they were working without staff.
Quote from: amabel on April 08, 2019, 08:04:28 PM
No I believe you can't do CPR for example in a moving vehicle.. so it isn't possible to do it in a quickly moving ambulance and possibly not in a Helicopter. I would imagine not, as it would be moving...
And I would say that since her most serious heart episode seems to have occurred wehn she was cut out of the car, its possible that if they COULD get a copter to her, moving her into it, would have possibly cuased another attack. Which woudl then mean stopping to get her stable again.
Who are these experts who are on standby exactly? There are teams in different hospitals and those hospitals are designated for certain types of care. Diana was taken to the nearest hospital with a trauma centre. THey went slowly to avoid causing a fatal heart attack. When they got her there they did their best and worked on her for several hours but her injuries were too severe and she died. It is tragic, but they certainly didn't "not pull out all the stops for her."
Why woudlnt they?
How do we know that her most serious heart episode happened just when they got her out of the car? Weren't there supposedly an episode in the ambulance?
Presumably they did CPR in an ambulance, which is a moving vehicle.
If they did not, it means it was not needed which means that her condition wasn?t that serious. It's one of those two alternatives.
If helicopter transportation posed a serious threat to a patient's stabilization it would not be used at all.
There are different types of medical personnel. Each differently equipped of dealing with different sorts of traumas etc. Ambulance personnel are no substitutes for trauma doctors.
They could have found an adjustment. The point is that time was of the essence and this should have been the main focus.
According to this article, in the US, there is something called trauma level one. It's a high level of preparedness supposedly. This is what that means according to them:
According to the American Trauma Society, "A Level One Trauma Center is capable of providing total care for every aspect of injury - from prevention through rehabilitation."
These are the things that are provided:
?
24-hour in-house coverage by general surgeons, and prompt availability of care in specialties such as orthopedic surgery, neurosurgery, anesthesiology, emergency medicine, radiology, internal medicine, plastic surgery, oral and maxillofacial, pediatric and critical care.
? Referral resource for communities in nearby regions.
? Provides leadership in prevention, public education to surrounding communities.
? Provides continuing education of the trauma team members.
? Incorporates a comprehensive quality assessment program.
? Operates an organized teaching and research effort to help direct new innovations in trauma care.
? Program for substance abuse screening and patient intervention.
? Meets minimum requirement for annual volume of severely injured patients.
From the article: What is a Level One Trauma Center and why does it matter to your family? (https://www.arnoldpalmerhospital.com/content-hub/what-is-a-level-one-trauma-center-and-why-does-it-matter-to-your-family)
It wasn't a matter of tearing down a building itself etc. to make it more "appropriate" for trauma patients.
One of the focal points is to have a coverage of sorts of appropriate personnel. In other words it could have been done, that relevant doctors and their supply could have been rushed to a nearby hospital.
This is what Christiaan Barnard said:
THE pioneering heart surgeon Christiaan Barnard claims in a new book that the life of Diana, Princess of Wales, should have been saved after her Paris car crash in 1997.
Professor Barnard, 78, who considered himself a friend of the Princess, says in the book that he can no longer keep quiet about his views on the tragedy. "Her death stunned me all the more as I was able to get a look at the particulars of the autopsy findings very soon after her death," he writes in the book, to be published in May.
"I think she could have been saved because, according to the report which I have seen, she died of internal bleeding. The injury which caused the bleeding was to a [pulmonary] vein which doesn't bleed particularly quickly. In fact, it bleeds rather slowly."
"What I want to say here is that, if Princess Diana had been brought to hospital within 10 minutes of the accident - something which should easily have been possible - and, once there, had been cared for properly, she could have survived."
"My opinion is that they made a mistake in not rushing her to hospital quicker because her bleeding could only be stopped by surgery," he said. "I understand they spent up to an hour at the scene of the accident."
From:
'They should have saved Diana's life' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1325881/They-should-have-saved-Dianas-life.html)
Double post auto-merged: April 09, 2019, 12:06:00 PM
Quote from: TLLK on April 09, 2019, 02:23:11 AM
I agree. The Pont D' Alma is very narrow and tunnels under the Seine. Above ground this is an older part of the city with narrow roads on either side of the river's embankment. It's not a safe landing site IMHO The first responders and the SAMU team were aware that of the surroundings and believed that the safest mode of transportation for this medically fragile patient was via a ground ambulance.
They should have then focused on bringing the experts to her, so to speak. In my opinion.
and how exactly would they have done heart surgery In an underpasss?
She just needed to get to an operating table STAT. The "rules" there did not allow it.
Quote from: amabel on April 09, 2019, 12:10:18 PM
and how exactly would they have done heart surgery In an underpasss?
Who said anything about a heart surgery in an underpass?
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on April 09, 2019, 01:15:56 PM
Who said anything about a heart surgery in an underpass?
You said that they should have focussed on bringing the experts to her.. IYO. which I presume means that instead of taking her to hospital, they should have brought surgeons to her
Double post auto-merged: April 09, 2019, 02:08:47 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 09, 2019, 12:56:08 PM
She just needed to get to an operating table STAT. The "rules" there did not allow it.
It was nothing to do with "rules." She got to hospital as fast as she could, given that she was having heart attacks on the way.. hurrying her there any faster would have caused more attacks.. which would have meant stopping to stabilise her.. so it would not have saved any time.. or it might have killed her in the ambulance.
Quotehey should have then focused on bringing the experts to her, so to speak. In my opinion.
Remember that with "stay and play" the expert (an emergency room physician) is brought to the patient via their mobile emergency rooms. This is why they're able to actually treat and discharge patients who otherwise would have to wait for treatment at an ER. With "scoop and run" you have paramedics who are providing initial care, not a qualified physician. Unfortunately Diana's injuries were rare but fatal.
The full scope of Diana's injuries were not known until she was being extracted. First responders had correctly prioritized Trevor Rees-Jones as he presented as the patient most severely injured. Patients are prioritized in triage to determine who has the greater need of care. At the time, Trevor was determined to be that patient. It was only when Diana was being moved and she had to be placed in a sitting position and the tear opened and her BP bottomed out. Had Diana been in a nation that practiced "scoop and run" the first responders would have encountered the same scenario but without an on site emergency room doctor in charge of patient care. Therefore she was stabilized on site by the SAMU emergency trained physician before the ambulance could embark on its journey to the trauma center at PSP.
I realize that there has been discussion of "bringing a team and equipment to a closer hospital." That is impractical on many levels IMVHO whether this is a nation that practices either "scoop and run" or "stay and play." To attempt to organize such a move would be very difficult as the space may or may not be large enough to accommodate the additional personnel and equipment. Equipment might be lost or damaged leaving the team without its necessary resources to provide care. This would also require that the receiving hospital move its equipment and personnel out. Also this would leave a designated trauma center absent of its team and equipment. Other patients would then be denied access to trauma care which is not the aim of a designated trauma center.
Regarding the claims made by the late Dr. Christian Barnard, IMO he was speaking hypothetically. Dr. Barnard retired in 1983 due to rheumatoid arthritis which had developed in both hands. He knew that it would no longer be safe for a patient for him to continue. By 1997 he'd have been retired for fourteen years and was no longer practicing surgery. His hands would not have been capable of the movements required to perform this emergency surgery. :(
Christiaan Barnard - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christiaan_Barnard)
Because she had a severe attack when moved out of the car.. and she had another one at least on the way to Hosptial. THey took the decision to go slowly for fear that a jolt would set off another heart incident. When she did have an attack, they had to stop or slow down even more to perform CPR and give her dopamine.
Unless she had crashed right outside hospital, she had to be transported to one, and it is clear that movement was dangerous for her.. so it was very likely that she would go into cardiac arrest on the journey. so yes she would have had heart attacks on the way. She had such a severe one when they cut her free of the car and moved her out that they had to spend some time stabilising her there on the spot. Once that had happened it was obvious that it could happen again. If she had another one they would again have to stop and spend time stabilising her.. and it might not work.. depending on the severity of the attack...moving her was necessary unless she was to stay by the tunnel.. but it was dangerous for her.
Right but she should have still gotten to an operating table FAST if there were any chance of saving her. The decision was a bad one.
She passed two hospitals and if they had stopped at the first one she would have had a better chance.
She was not getting the help she needed.
Quote from: sandy on April 09, 2019, 03:56:21 PM
Right but she should have still gotten to an operating table FAST if there were any chance of saving her. The decision was a bad one.
She passed two hospitals and if they had stopped at the first one she would have had a better chance.
She was not getting the help she needed.
Again, the hospitals she "passed" did not have the facilities for the kind of surgery she needed. if she had stopped at the first one, she would just have had to wait for equipment and staff to be transferred..which would have left some other hospital without staff and equipment for its patients...and which would have taken time.. if they had agreed to do it...
Quote from: sandy on April 09, 2019, 06:38:08 PM
The equipment and people can be moved. It is not difficult to move equipment. It is done all the time. So many excuses for bad treatment.
Sandy you can't just strip a hospital of its equipment...and even if they were agreeable to leave one hospital without some of its equipment, there might not be room to set it up in the other hospital you go to. Plus it takes time. Ths stuff is high tech and you can't just throw it in the back of a van and hurry it along. Even if they agreed to do this, it would have taken time to get to Diana in the hospital she was sent to.. and she might have died waiting for the surgery to happen. Or as I've repeatedly said, if she was rushed to hospital, she might well have died of one of her caridiac arrests..... because the ambulance was speeding and they could not do CPR
By the time they strip the (delicate and very expensive) equipment, pack (delicate wares), load bay area, transport, unload, unpack...the patient is equally dead.
Sandy they didn't "leave her in the car" as you put it. She was taken to hospital... she was looked after on the way by a doctor, who worked on her when she went into cardiac arrest and kept her alive till she got to the hospital. She was then worked on by cardiologists for about 2 hours but her injuries were too severe and they were unable to save her....
Not all medical or surgical treatment is successful. Unfortunately people with serious injuries sometimes die in spite of treatment.
Quote from: sandy on April 09, 2019, 06:38:08 PM
The equipment and people can be moved. It is not difficult to move equipment. It is done all the time. So many excuses for bad treatment.
No it is not in emergency situations unless the hospital is severely damaged or compromised. Taking Diana to a hospital that was not equipped with trauma personnel and equipment, the necessary surgical team and post-op care would have been highly irresponsible.
QuoteUnfortunately people with serious injuries sometimes die in spite of treatment.
Which is true even in nations that practice "scoop and run." Sometimes the injuries are just too severe like they were in Diana's case.
The Diana Mysteries | Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2004/10/princess-diana-death-investigations)
Houston trauma surgeon Kenneth Mattox believe that even if Diana had been brought to the hospital sooner, she wouldn't have been saved. Her injuries were far too severe.
Quote from: TLLK on April 09, 2019, 07:28:51 PM
No it is not in emergency situations unless the hospital is severely damaged or compromised. Taking Diana to a hospital that was not equipped with trauma personnel and equipment, the necessary surgical team and post-op care would have been highly irresponsible.
Which is true even in nations that practice "scoop and run." Sometimes the injuries are just too severe like they were in Diana's case.
The Diana Mysteries | Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2004/10/princess-diana-death-investigations)
Ho
Its hard to imagine, really what emergency situation would involve moving equipment from one hospital to another. If a hospital's basic equipment was destroyed somehow I suppose other hospitals would lend some basic things.. but there might not be undamaged space left to put them... But I suppose - for example in case of terrorist attacks being expected/feared, they might lend equipment to ensure that the hospital was at least partially functioning.
Quote from: amabel on April 09, 2019, 07:01:18 PM
Sandy they didn't "leave her in the car" as you put it. She was taken to hospital... she was looked after on the way by a doctor, who worked on her when she went into cardiac arrest and kept her alive till she got to the hospital. She was then worked on by cardiologists for about 2 hours but her injuries were too severe and they were unable to save her....
Not all medical or surgical treatment is successful. Unfortunately people with serious injuries sometimes die in spite of treatment.
I read the account of what happened right after the accident, she should have been removed from that car STAT. A first responder said she was conscious after the accident. Time is of the essence.
The method used on Diana was unsuccessful. She did not get to the hospital in time.
Double post auto-merged: April 09, 2019, 11:04:02 PM
Quote from: TLLK on April 09, 2019, 07:28:51 PM
No it is not in emergency situations unless the hospital is severely damaged or compromised. Taking Diana to a hospital that was not equipped with trauma personnel and equipment, the necessary surgical team and post-op care would have been highly irresponsible.
Which is true even in nations that practice "scoop and run." Sometimes the injuries are just too severe like they were in Diana's case.
The Diana Mysteries | Vanity Fair (https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2004/10/princess-diana-death-investigations)
Houston trauma surgeon Kenneth Mattox believe that even if Diana had been brought to the hospital sooner, she wouldn't have been saved. Her injuries were far too severe.
People with worse injuries who got to the hospital in time via scoop and run recovered.
Other doctors said she should have gotten to the hospital STAT.
She did get to the hospital "STAT". it took time to cut her out of the car and when they did she had her first heart attack. They had to stabilise her. if they hadn't she would possibly have died on the spot. Then they drove to the hospital, carefully, to ensure that they minimised the chances of another attack.... but she still had one and they had to stabilise her again. If they hadn't done this, she would have died in the ambulance. They got her to hospital alive.. but her injuries were too severe and her heart gave up...
Its sad and terrible but people do die when they have been in a crash like Diana's. They can die of lesser injuries. Two people were killed on the spot in that crash, and 2 people were terribly injuried. It was a horrible violent crash. THe emergency services got her out, got her to hospital and there was nothing more they could do.... then it was up to the surgical team.. and her injuries were too severe. Her heart was pushed right across her chest... Its terrible when someone young like that dies in such a way, but it happens
QuoteIts hard to imagine, really what emergency situation would involve moving equipment from one hospital to another.
@amabel-I was thinking of a catastrophic natural disaster ie: Hurricane Katrina in which infants in the NICU (new born intensive care) and other ICU patients were airlifted to safety prior to the storm making landfall. It would be extremely rare, but they do occur.
Quote from: TLLK on April 10, 2019, 05:49:34 PM
@amabel-I was thinking of a catastrophic natural disaster ie: Hurricane Katrina in which infants in the NICU (new born intensive care) and other ICU patients were airlifted to safety prior to the storm making landfall. It would be extremely rare, but they do occur.
Yes, of course nowadays with the fear of terrorist attacks, there might be situations wehere a hospital gets some kind of damage, nad its equipmetn is ruined...but they still need to keep it functioning because there may be a massive demand for its services...
Quote from: amabel on April 10, 2019, 04:34:21 PM
She did get to the hospital "STAT". it took time to cut her out of the car and when they did she had her first heart attack. They had to stabilise her. if they hadn't she would possibly have died on the spot. Then they drove to the hospital, carefully, to ensure that they minimised the chances of another attack.... but she still had one and they had to stabilise her again. If they hadn't done this, she would have died in the ambulance. They got her to hospital alive.. but her injuries were too severe and her heart gave up...
Its sad and terrible but people do die when they have been in a crash like Diana's. They can die of lesser injuries. Two people were killed on the spot in that crash, and 2 people were terribly injuried. It was a horrible violent crash. THe emergency services got her out, got her to hospital and there was nothing more they could do.... then it was up to the surgical team.. and her injuries were too severe. Her heart was pushed right across her chest... Its terrible when someone young like that dies in such a way, but it happens
Yeah as if 2 hours is STAT. While she was bleeding to death. That's not STAT that is SLOW
They got her to the hospital too Late.
@sandy- The actual time frame from the moment of the crash to arrival at the hospital was under two hours. Keep in mind that by chance a physician was traveling through the tunnel and called for emergency assistance. He was able to make a preliminary assessment of the crash and the victims. Remember that it took time for emergency responders to arrive and then begin the process to remove Trevor and to extract Diana from a crumpled vehicle. First responders on the scene would have had to try and work around a vehicle which was now crushed and badly damaged. Doors/windows would not be as easy to open and firefighters have to deal with broken glass and sharp twisted metal. Also they must assess the situation and then try remove injured parties carefully to avoid any further injuries. First responders in "scoop and run" nations are required to do the same. The first responders on the site of the crash did respond in an appropriate and timely manner considering the state of the vehicle.
From the official inquest Operation Paget.
QuoteThe time from the crash itself (12.23am) until arrival at hospital (2.06am) was one
hour and forty-three minutes. When considering this time period, one must take into
account the following;
? the time taken for the arrival of the emergency services
? medical assessments of all casualties
? the removal of a critically injured and awkwardly positioned casualty from the
car-This is Diana. They could not just rapidly remove her from the vehicle without risking further injury. The act of moving her into a sitting postion put her in cardiac arrest.
? external cardio pulmonary resuscitation carried out in the roadway
? transfer to the SAMU ambulance
? further detailed medical examination in the ambulance
? ambulance transport to the hospital
@sandy-It is the defense of the first responders and health care professionals who did their best to save the two survivors at the crash scene. Ultimately one did live but the other sadly succumbed because her injuries were too severe. The goal of both "scoop and run" and "stay and play" is to provide emergency care to the victims as soon as possible. Scoop and run involves transporting the victim to a designated emergency room/trauma center. Stay and play sees the emergency room/trauma center brought to the site to treat the patient. Both systems do work and many victims survive their accidents however both systems do see loss of life as it is impossible to save everyone despite the efforts of the healthcare professionals. Diana falls into the latter category.
I heard all that but I stand by my opinion that she was doomed because of the big delay in getting the care she needed at a Hospital. The care can be praised over and over but it still killed her.
@sandy-Consider that this accident could have been avoided in the first place if Henri Paul had not been under the influence of alcohol and prescription medication. It could have been avoided if he'd been driving at the legal speed limit through a very narrow tunnel. Had all of the occupants been restrained by their seatbelts there is a very good chance they'd all had survived. However what killed her was the fact that her heart was irreparably damaged during a crash in which she was an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle being driven at a high rate of speed by an impaired driver.
The doctor who is featured in this article summed it up in his final paragraph(s).
QuoteIf only she had been wearing a seat belt. Had she been restrained, she would probably have appeared in public two days later with a black eye, perhaps a bit breathless from the fractured ribs and with a broken arm in a sling.
The pathology of her death is, I believe, indisputable. But around that tiny, fatal tear in a pulmonary vein are woven many other facts, some of which are sufficiently opaque to allow a multitude of theories to blossom.
But I entirely concurred with the findings of the inquiry. It was a tragic accident.
Quote from: sandy on April 11, 2019, 04:07:10 PM
I heard all that but I stand by my opinion that she was doomed because of the big delay in getting the care she needed at a Hospital. The care can be praised over and over but it still killed her.
how was there "a big delay?" It has been pointed out to you over and again, that it took time for the emergency service to arrive.. It took some time to cut her out of the car.. as the car was in a very bad shape.. and it took time because she had a severe heart attack when they were moving, her, it then took time to stablise her. with her injuries any movement was dangerous. Getting her out of the car caused her blood pressure to drop and they had to work on her to get her stablised. Then they had to go to the hospital, driving carefully because movement was dangerous... and even so she had another cardiac arrest and they again had to slow and stop to look after her. If they had not spent this time stabilising her, she would have died at the scene or in the ambulance.
when they got her to hospital they operated but the injuries to her heart were too severe and it stopped beating again.. they worked on her for 2 hours to try to get it beating again but were unable to do so. I can't believe that you really think she did not get the best care possible.
If you don't think it's a big delay that's your choice. I would not want any of my loved ones in that situation.
If it happened in the US she would have been airlifted and would have had a much better chance of survival.
I can't believe you really think she got the best care possible. She did die. So the care did not work.
THat does not mean that she didn't get the best care. I would say that with her injuries, movement being so dangerous, a helicopter was not an option. It probably was not possible for it to land near the tunnel and moving her to it, would have increased her risks...
it is not possible to save everyone.. she was thrown around in a car, travelling at high speed which then hit a tunnel pillar and went out of control. Two people were killed in that crash and another person seriously injured.
Dianas heart was pushed across her chest by the impact.. She got hours of care but in the end her heart stopped and they could not get it going again.
Im pointing out that many things are impossible. If you are infertile you can't have a baby. that's impossible. Lots of things are.
Not everyone who is injured in accidents is saved. Do you think that they all have poor medical treatment? Not everyone who gets a serious illness will recover. Some may, but not everyone.
Do you relaly think that you can cut someone out of a badly damaged car in a few minutes? or if moving them upright causes a heart attack, how can you then not stop where you are and get them stable?
If the person then has another heart attack on route to hospital, don't you think tat they are going to have to stop and do CPR and get their heart back to normal again?
Do you really think that the emergency authorities thought " a helicopter would be much faster but we'll opt for an ambulance instead..."?
Quote from: amabel on April 11, 2019, 06:53:11 PM
They don't "let people die". They do their best, but sometimes their best isn't enough to save someone.
The medical team did what they could. Sometimes people are looking for someone to blame instead of accepting that an accident occurred and people died.
They could have done better. All the time people are entitled to their opinions and the medical care she got WAS criticized. They all did not love it royal. The woman died. She lost all chances of survival when the shoddy yes shoddy medical care was chosen which did not get her to the needed treatment On Time.
what was this shoddy medical care? She was cut out of the car, carefully to try and ensure that she was not more hurt. She was looked after when she had a heart attack and put in the ambulance. She was looked after during the journey to hospital, where they operated to try to repair the vein that was bleeding and when her heart gave out, they tried for hours to get it to beat again.
Do you think that they could move her to hospital without some kind of transportation which takes time? Do you think that they choose a method that was slow? Do you think that when she had heart attacks, they could just ignore this ad not stop to restore her heart to beating.
I already went over this amabel.
She did not get to the hospital on time but by the time she arrived it was too late.
She died from this treatment it did not save her it was not successful. In the US she would have been transported to the nearest hospital or airlifted. I see so many excuses made for this treatment and it was not "universally" applauded.
Quote from: sandy on April 11, 2019, 08:13:10 PM
I already went over this amabel.
She did not get to the hospital on time but by the time she arrived it was too late.
She died from this treatment it did not save her it was not successful. In the US she would have been transported to the nearest hospital or airlifted. I see so many excuses made for this treatment and it was not "universally" applauded.
People don't always surivive a serious accident. this accident had killed 2 people on impact. Diana was severely injured.
If she had been airlifted, since movement was very dangerous for her, she might have died when being moved ot the helicopter. Lifting her out of the car caused a severe heart attack. Getting her into a helicopter, if it were possible to bring one to the tunnel would have likely caused a second one. Taking her to the nearest hospital would have meant that she was at a hospital wich had no trauma centre and did not have the equipment to look after her.
Do you really thnk that they thought " a helicopter is faster but we will use an ambulance?
She did not get to the hospital in time.
Other people get airlifted with heart injuries and survive.
Equipment can be brought to another hospital.
I don't know what they "thought" but people defend what they did rigorously for one reason or another. It still killed her.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on April 11, 2019, 07:07:59 PM
The medical team did what they could. Sometimes people are looking for someone to blame instead of accepting that an accident occurred and people died.
Exactly
@royalanthropologist By chance a physician was driving through and came upon the accident. He called it in to the emergency number. (Remember this was a time when not everyone had a cell phone.) He was able to make some preliminary assessments so that the first responders knew what they would be dealing with when they arrived. That being said, it still takes time for emergency crews to travel from their stations to the crash site. These are the professionals who know the city and the fastest routes to take, but it still takes time for them to travel. The firefighters faced enormous challenges in extracting two severely injured patients from a crumpled vehicle while using care and dexterity to avoid causing further injury. Little did they know was that action to move her, did exacerbate her rare and severe injury. The mobile emergency room staffed with an actual emergency room physician was on site and brought her out of cardiac arrest twice. He knew that the top trauma care teams were on duty that night at the designated trauma center. The top cardiac surgeon was brought in to work on her for two hours before calling the time of death. These teams did everything they could to try and save their lives, but in the end one victim was too severely injured and succumbed to her fatal injury. They managed to save the life of one of the victims in the end.
QuoteIn the US she would have been transported to the nearest hospital or airlifted
Not always true
@sandy especially if the nearest hospital is not a designated trauma center or is not equipped with an emergency room. The first responders would take the victim to the facility best equipped and staffed to provide emergency patient care. In a large urban area, you might have many hospitals but not all are equipped or staffed to handle severely injured accident victims. Finally not every place can accommodate a helicopter landing and take off. The roads along that part of the Seine are not very wide and it would be unsafe to the victim and the crew to land/take off. That is not unusual in older European cities. There are places in London, Rome, Berlin, Moscow, Amsterdam etc... where it would be impossible to bring in a helicopter. I've personally observed an emergency team in Florence, Italy having to park the ambulance several yards away from the victim and have seen first responders have to walk in to treat the road accident victims because the streets are just too narrow.
Double post auto-merged: April 11, 2019, 09:52:50 PM
When my brother was involved in his fatal car accident the crash site was near four hospitals. He was transported via a ground ambulance because a helicopter could not be safely landed on that part of the freeway. He was taken to the hospital that was the furthest from the accident because it was the designated Level 1 Trauma Center for that part of Orange County, CA. The closest hospital did not have an emergency room that could handle such a severely injured patient. The next two closest hospitals had a higher level of Emergency room care available but were still not appropriate for his severe injuries. (My mother was a former ICU nurse at that hospital) That emergency room cared for his companions. (The other hospital was the county children's hospital and was not the appropriate place for an adult patient.) He was taken to the designated Level 1 trauma facility were despite two hours of efforts, he succumbed to his injuries.
It is true for Most of the Time that they are airlifted.
I saw very inept treatment for Diana. I stand by my opinion.
@sandy-Victims who are airlifted are typically in rural areas or at a great distance from medical treatment. We would see/hear helicopters all the time if your statement was true. Most accident victims in large urban areas are transported via a ground ambulance. Diana's crash site was four miles from the hospital in a densely populated urban setting. She was sent to the hospital when she had been safely extracted, treated for her cardiac arrest and stabilized.
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 02:07:36 PM
Some general information to determine what type of transport is used.
When is a Ground Ambulance vs Air Ambulance vs Helicopter used? - Air Ambulance Guides (http://www.airambulanceguides.com/when-is-a-ground-ambulance-vs-air-ambulance-vs-helicopter-used/)
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 02:08:12 PM
Quote
Ground Ambulance
It normally makes both practical and economic sense to transport a patient via ground ambulance for transports within 200 miles.
Helicopter Air Ambulance
A helicopter Air Ambulance is generally used if an emergency transport is needed, especially from hospital to hospital within a range of about 200 miles.
Airplane (Fixed Wing) Air Ambulance
Non emergency transports more than 200 miles are usually most effective in a airplane air ambulance. Emergency air transports that are more than 300 miles are usually most effective in airplane air ambulance.
The woman died because her severe injuries were caused by being an unrestrained passenger involved in a high speed and heavy impact car crash which saw her heart being displaced and a tear in her blood vessel that could not be repaired despite tremendous efforts on the part of highly skilled teams. It was a tragic and largely avoidable accident that killed three people and left the sole survivor with terrible long term injuries.
Exactly TLLK. :goodpost: It really was that simple and that tragic. All confirmed by an extensive and comprehensive public inquiry headed by people who are specialists. I believe them over any conspiracy theorists.
You're welcome
@royalanthropologist. People are certainly welcome to their opinions but when false or exaggerated claims are made, they shouldn't be surprised if those statements are challenged.
QuoteIt is true for Most of the Time that they are airlifted.
Here is an example of what I find to be an exaggerated claim. In the U.S. most of the time accident/car crash victims are transported via ground ambulance as opposed to being airlifted by helicopter or airplane. The exceptions being when the victim is 200 miles from a hospital that is equipped and staffed to treat severe injuries.
The site of the accident that killed Diana, Dodi and Henri was four miles from the hospital that she was transported to for treatment. She was in a large urban setting. Had the crash occurred in a rural or remote part of France which was far from a Level 1 trauma center, then air transport would have been the appropriate mode of transportation.
Quote from: sandy on April 12, 2019, 12:00:40 PM
It is true for Most of the Time that they are airlifted.
I saw very inept treatment for Diana. I stand by my opinion.
No it is not true, Sandy. Look at TLLK's post. It is not always possible to airlift and its not always safe...
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 04:40:34 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 11, 2019, 08:24:59 PM
She did not get to the hospital in time.
Other people get airlifted with heart injuries and survive.
Equipment can be brought to another hospital.
I don't know what they "thought" but people defend what they did rigorously for one reason or another. It still killed her.
It did not "kill her". What killed her were the severe injuries she received in the crash.. which left her heart pushed across her chest. As has been said, it is difficult in most cities to use helicopters, and they are not considered to be the first choice when in a city where the hospitals are relatively close by. In addition, since Diana's being moved from the car caused her first and worst heart attack, it was obvious that moving her was going to be dangerous and getting her into a helicopter might be extremely risky for her.. so would I imagine a journey in a helicopter which is less "smooth" a ride than a plane.
She had severe injuries. She was thrown about in a large car because she had no seat belt on. THe car was so mangled that getting her out was very difficult. They got her out, looked after her and kept her alive through 2 heart attacks, and got her to hospital alive. But her injuries were too severe and she died...
Bleeding to death and not getting to the hospital in time did her in. so you say she was doomed anyway? A helicopter may not be "smooth" but it is not a slow moving ambulance. I honesty don't get your defense of this bad system and you don't know what would have happened if she got there faster. You seem to assume she would not survive and there is no way of knowing this for certain. I stand by my opinion.
So what are you saying they "rarely" airlift here? EVERY accident report I heard on the news discussed Airlifting. You seem to be opposed to it in general and like the slow way that caused her to bleed to death.I don't get it.
I still stand by my opinion.
I don't know why you don't seem to see that if Diana had been taken in an ambulance that speeded, a jolt might have brought on another heart attack. or that it took time to extract her from the badly damaged car... or that moving her out of the car lifting her up, brought on a heart attack. or that if she had a heart attack they had to stop and stabilise her. Surely that's obvious?
there was no way of getting her to hospital any faster.. as it took TIME to cut her out of the car, it took time to restore her heart to beating normally when she had the first heart attack and it took time to take her to hospital, dealing with another heart attack on the way.
Accoridng to TLLK.. who has sadly got experience of accidents in the US, they do not routinely airlift in the US.. as often it isn't possible for a helicopter to be used in a city. It is mainly used where the accident takes place far away from medical centres...
Nobody is "opposed" to it.. but emergency services don't use it all the time....generally if an accident takes place in a city, the paitent is transported by ambulance...
Yes
@amabel. Now while the use of air ambulances has been growing in recent years, most patients are still transported via ground ambulance especially in larger urban/suburban areas within the 200 mile radius.
There are parts of the U.S., Canada etc..that are rather remote or are far from more adequately equipped hospitals. Diana was only four miles from the designated trauma center and in that older section of Paris near the Seine, it would be difficult to safely land/take off in a helicopter.
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 10:33:43 PM
search2 (https://abcnews.go.com/Health/HealthCare/story?id=8437560)
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 10:37:13 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 12, 2019, 09:15:33 PM
Bleeding to death and not getting to the hospital in time did her in. so you say she was doomed anyway? A helicopter may not be "smooth" but it is not a slow moving ambulance. I honesty don't get your defense of this bad system and you don't know what would have happened if she got there faster. You seem to assume she would not survive and there is no way of knowing this for certain. I stand by my opinion.
So what are you saying they "rarely" airlift here? EVERY accident report I heard on the news discussed Airlifting. You seem to be opposed to it in general and like the slow way that caused her to bleed to death.I don't get it.
I still stand by my opinion.
World Health Organization?s Ranking of the World?s Health Systems | thepatientfactor.com (http://thepatientfactor.com/canadian-health-care-information/world-health-organizations-ranking-of-the-worlds-health-systems/)
Double post auto-merged: April 12, 2019, 10:38:43 PM
According to the World Health Organization: France has the top rated system of any nation on Earth. The U.S. is ranked 37th.
Quote from: sandy on April 12, 2019, 09:15:33 PM
Bleeding to death and not getting to the hospital in time did her in. so you say she was doomed anyway? A helicopter may not be "smooth" but it is not a slow moving ambulance. I
S
the point being that any sudden movement was dangerous to Diana. Helicopters are less of a smooth ride than a plane, and less than an ambulance going slowly.
Movements that the doctors at the crash site quickly realized were causing greater harm to their seriously injured patient.
QuoteOh yeah, such great harm so they had to poke to get her to the hospital.
@sandy-The doctors at the crash site stabilized the patient who had suffered one episode of cardiac arrest when she was being removed from the vehicle. The stabilized her for a second time as she was being transported. Remember that the jury at the official inquest determined that this fatal accident could have been avoided if the chauffeur Henri Paul had not mixed two strong alcoholic drinks with prescription medication. This fatal accident could have been avoided if he'd driven at the posted speed limit and not double the limit. This fatal accident could have been avoided if the paparazzi had not been chasing the vehicle. This fatalities and Trevor's injuries could have been avoided if the driver and passengers had used their functioning seat belts as required by French law.
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 01:50:38 AM
Oh yeah, such great harm so they had to poke to get her to the hospital.
Double post auto-merged: April 14, 2019, 01:51:17 AM
so then amabel maybe they should not have bothered at all. She died with the "treatment" and helicopters get to hospitals faster.
why do you keep saying this? I don't even know waht "they had to poke" means. They did their best to save her but they were unable to do so.
Double post auto-merged: April 14, 2019, 10:13:41 AM
Quote from: TLLK on April 14, 2019, 02:50:50 AM
@sandy-The doctors at the crash site stabilized the patient who had suffered one episode of cardiac arrest when she was being removed from the vehicle. The stabilized her for a second time as she was being transported. Remember that the jury at the official inquest determined that this fatal accident could have been avoided if the chauffeur Henri Paul had not mixed two strong alcoholic drinks with prescription medication. This fatal accident could have been avoided if he'd driven at the posted speed limit and not double the limit. This fatal accident could have been avoided if the paparazzi had not been chasing the vehicle. This fatalities and Trevor's injuries could have been avoided if the driver and passengers had used their functioning seat belts as required by French law.
accidents happen. this one did have a lot of things that made it a terrible crash, such as their driving too fast, Henri Paul not being a trained driver and the fact that they weren't wearing seatbelts. But there are fatal accidents that just happen.. a car skids. A driver reacts but not quite quickly enough. Just as people get ill and sometimes they recover, sometimes they don't. It is a sad fact of life that not everyone who is in an accident or is taken seriously ill, will get through it..
QuoteSeatbelts malfunctioned
Two independent investigations proved that the seatbelts were in working order at the time of the crash but the occupants of the vehicle didn't use them.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=operation+paget+report+seatbelts
QuotePart B ? General
Both the French and British examinations of the Mercedes have shown that there were
no mechanical issues with the car that could have in any way caused or contributed to
the crash.
There was no defect in the seat belt system. The seatbelts were not used.
There were no signs of any interference with the vehicle.
QuoteTrevor the Hero did not tell the driver to buckle up and the others. Trevor thank heavens has amnesia he may have been brought up on charges for negligence.
Trevor was employed by Mr. Al Fayed and if Dodi, Diana, Henri, Trevor chose not to put on their seatbelts he wouldn't have been able to force them to do so. They were all adults who had ridden in cars throughout their lifetime and I would presume to state that they knew how seatbelts worked. Had Diana opted to keep the RPO that was offered to her after the divorce, then I believe that officer would have been able to convince her that it was not safe to travel with an impaired driver. However she declined the offer of a RPO and chose to use her seatbelt that evening.
Double post auto-merged: April 14, 2019, 02:11:57 PM
Quote
You are not going to change my mind. I think this has gone full circle.
I agree that it has gone full circle but if you make false or exaggerated claims such as "the seatbelts malfunctioned" when two separate investigations proved that they were in working order, don't be surprised if your statement is challenged.
The bodyguard is amnesiac and can't tell what happened. Some reports said the seatbelts malfunctioned, it was an old car just put in use at the last minute.
Your statements could be challenged as well. It is not an exaggerated claim. There are numerous reports saying Diana routinely buckled up, her sisters said so. Diana acted totally out of character yet some bashers blame her for her own death in a rather cruel way. And trevor has amnesia.
AL Fayed hired Trevor as a bodyguard not as someone along for the ride. I think he would have been brought up on negligence charges had he not had amnesia. HE worked for the father not the son.
Princess Diana: Sister makes shock seatbelt claim in BBC documentary | Daily Star (https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/640569/Princess-Diana-7-days-BBC-sister-seatbelt-Lady-Sarah-McCorquodale-Prince-Harry-William)
@sandy-Do you have a link to any official investigations stating that the seat belts malfunctioned? If so I'd be interested in reading them. :) TBH I've looked for reports challenging the results of the investigation and have yet to find any that contradicts them. Had there been any results claiming that they had malfunctioned then I'm surprised that the Spencers, Windsors, Paul, and Al Fayed families have not sued Mercedes Benz or the manufacturers of the seat belts. From what I can see, none of those parties have chosen to sue Mercedes Benz or the seat belt manufacturers likely because they all have read and know that the seat belts were functioning as to the results of the two independent investigations.
As for Lady Sarah's remarks, she stated the following from the article
QuoteWhy didn't she put it on that night? I'll never know."
. She doesn't make any reference to malfunctioning seat belts. Nor has the members of the Windsor or Spencer families ever publicly stated that they didn't believe the results of the two independent investigations made that ultimately agreed that the seat belts were in working order. However they have made statements that they have accepted the official report from the Operation Paget Inquiry which did include the results of the seat belt investigations. Lady Sarah is obviously puzzled as to why Diana chose not to put them on that night as the reports clearly showed that they were in working order but not used by the occupants.
Absolutely my statements can be challenged and I'm happy to provide evidence that supports mine. :)
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 03:05:02 PM
The bodyguard is amnesiac and can't tell what happened. Some reports said the seatbelts malfunctioned, it was an old car just put in use at the last minute.
Your statements could be challenged as well. It is not an exaggerated claim. There are numerous reports saying Diana routinely buckled up, her sisters said so. Diana acted totally out of character yet some bashers blame her for her own death in a rather cruel way. And trevor has amnesia.
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If it was an old car and not fit to be used, it was Dodi's decision to use it, and to use Henri Paul who wasn't a trained driver..
so if she religiously put on seat belts, then she would have found at the outset, that the belt did not work. So why not then say that she didn't want to travel n the car because her belt did't work? If that were the case, she could have asked Dodi to get them another car or to stay in the Ritz... if he overruled her then it is his blame, surely?
Well for one thing the car just sped away going faster and faster. You keep looking to blame Diana. WHich I find really sad.
First responders reported Diana spoke.
ANd anything not to blame the healhcare she got.
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 07:56:06 PM
Well for one thing the car just sped away going faster and faster. You keep looking to blame Diana. WHich I find really sad.
First responders reported Diana spoke.
ANd anything not to blame the healhcare she got.
what has Diana speaking got to do with anyting? and if the car did speed away with Diana trying ot buckle up or protesting about the belt, I would feel that the blame was on Dodi for not teling the driver to stop and go back... (not to menton that there would have been signs of the belt having been pulled out and the belts being faulty when Op Paget did its investigation...
It means she was conscious. Why do you even question it?
The one who really knows has amnesia.
It was an old car that had actually been a recovered stolen car.
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 08:10:42 PM
It means she was conscious. Why do you even question it?
The one who really knows has amnesia.
It was an old car that had actually been a recovered stolen car.
so it gets worse. A car iwht non functioning seatbelts, an old car not fit for purpose. Why was Dodi using such a car? WHy Did AL Fayed keep such a bad car for use for his son etc to travel in? (setting aside that Op Paget didn't find any evidence of the belts being used or of their being "not working."
I didn't question that diana was conscious. We know she was semi conscious when the doctor saw her. I don't see what it has to do with seat belts or the car
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 08:40:33 PM
What gets worse? You heard about the accident circumstances they did stay the same pretty much.
Al Fayed was not "there" to authorize the car.
It has everything to do with the topic that she was conscious, witnesses said they thought she could have been saved with prompt hospital care.
witnesses may have thoguth so. Unlike they were specialists I don't really tink that it matters. In any case, it was not possible to get her to hospital within 10 minutes, as you know. She was trapped in a car, she had to be cut out. She had a heart attack and had to be treated. etc . as you know. She might have been conscious, that didn't mean that her injuries were not very severe....
As for the car.... Sureley nobody would keep such a dreadful car for use for their staff/family? If it was really "an old car that was not working properly", it should have been disposed of and a safer better car purchased for use? Why did Dodi use the car? Why did he use the driver that he used who was not a trained driver, did not have a licence to drive it, and had been off duty and had been drinking and taking medical drugs? WHy didn't Dodi put on his seat belt, and if it iddn't work, say "lets get another car, this one doesn't have safe seat belts?
Quoteitnesses may have thoguth so. Unlike they were specialists I don't really tink that it matters. In any case, it was not possible to get her to hospital within 10 minutes, as you know. She was trapped in a car, she had to be cut out. She had a heart attack and had to be treated. etc . as you know. She might have been conscious, that didn't mean that her injuries were not very severe....
As for the car.... Sureley nobody would keep such a dreadful car for use for their staff/family? If it was really "an old car that was not working properly", it should have been disposed of and a safer better car purchased for use? Why did Dodi use the car? Why did he use the driver that he used who was not a trained driver, did not have a licence to drive it, and had been off duty and had been drinking and taking medical drugs? WHy didn't Dodi put on his seat belt, and if it iddn't work, say "lets get another car, this one doesn't have safe seat belts?
Also it took seven minutes for the emergency services to arrive after the call was made by a doctor who happened to be traveling through the tunnel.
The doctor had quickly checked on all of the victims and noted two fatalities and two injured victims. At the time, Trevor presented as the more severely injured victim and required the more immediate attention. Diana was noted as being the less affected victim at the time.
The SAMU team that arrived with its mobile emergency room was led by a physician who was treating the victims.
The time to get Diana to the hospital took 26 minutes. All total it was 1 hour and 43 minutes from the time of the crash to Diana's arrival at the hospital.
As for why none of the occupants chose to put on their seat belts, we'll never know unless Mr. Rees recovers his memory.
We can hash and rehash this. I have my opinion you have yours.
Diana had internal injuries, it shows the lack of precision of the examinations to name Trevor as the one hurt the most. just proves my point .
She got to the hospital too late. And it did take a Long Time. I don't get all the denials.
If you think it was great medical care that is your choice.
Rees will NEver recover his memory.
@sandy- Where the survivors were triaged at the site Trevor presented as the more seriously injured victim. Diana's injuries were not fully known until she was placed in a sitting position when she was being extracted. The on site physicians made thorough examinations but you can't fit an imaging machine in the back of a crashed vehicle. The physicians did exactly what they were supposed to do.
Like Moynihan once said:
"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.?
There was an inquiry by professional people who produced a detailed and accurate report, despite the histrionics of the likes of MAF. I think that report has more credibility than tired conspiracy theories without a shred of evidence.
@royalanthropologist - You've summed up my feelings perfectly and I believe that your statement is a fitting end to a circular discussion.
The medical team did the best that they could do in the circumstances. The quality of care that Diana received after the accident was also part of the inquiry and coroner's report. They did not find any negligence or malice.
MAF actually instigated the inquiry with his deranged accusations against people without any evidence. He failed to acknowledge his fault in doing a publicity stunt that went wrong and got people killed. He also failed to acknowledge his son's poor decision-making on that night. To this date, he has never apologized to the BRF for the nasty things he said against them. I am sure they would be accused of racism if they uttered half the nonsense that he has uttered against them.
To cast negative aspersions about the medical team is grossly unfair. They were brought into an entirely preventable emergency and did what they are trained to do. Unfortunately some people died...it happens even with the best healthcare in the world. I am sure people do die from accidents in the USA despite all the air lifts and supersonic responses.
There is no emergency medical team in the world that guarantees life. They only do what they can...like they did this time.
There is a difference between not being "clinical" and blaming everybody for a tragedy.
I think every functional adult has a responsibility to wear seat belts. Certainly any negligence on a victim's part is part of the discussion, particularly when everybody else is being blamed for decisions that have nothing to do with them.
You are right that I am obvious. I do believe this was a publicity stunt that went wrong. I do not believe the the emergency medical team was in any way to blame for what happened. All they did was to try and help the victims of an accident.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on April 15, 2019, 02:21:27 PM
The medical team did the best that they could do in the circumstances. The quality of care that Diana received after the accident was also part of the inquiry and coroner's report. They did not find any negligence or malice.
MAF actually instigated the inquiry with his deranged accusations against people without any evidence. He failed to acknowledge his fault in doing a publicity stunt that went wrong and got people killed. He also failed to acknowledge his son's poor decision-making on that night. To this date, he has never apologized to the BRF for the nasty things he said against them. I am sure they would be accused of racism if they uttered half the nonsense that he has uttered against them.
To cast negative aspersions about the medical team is grossly unfair. They were brought into an entirely preventable emergency and did what they are trained to do. Unfortunately some people died...it happens even with the best healthcare in the world. I am sure people do die from accidents in the USA despite all the air lifts and supersonic responses.
I agree, larlgey. as TLLK has said, the USA don't routinely do airlifts.. except when an accident happens way way away from a hospital. usualy In cities, they transport people by motor ambulance, just as they did in France . Had Diana crashed in the USA, she would have had to be cut out of the car, if she had had a heart attack, they would have had to take time to get her heart beating again, and she would have gone to Hosptial by ambulance problaby going slowly to avoid shakng her about and possibly causing another attack. No medical system guarantees that nobody will die.
Double post auto-merged: April 15, 2019, 04:30:57 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 15, 2019, 03:41:28 PM
Oh please, royal, the guard has amnesia and does not know what happened. Diana always had buckled up.
It is
Diana didn't buckle up that night. THe Operation Paget says that the seat belts were functioning and that no one in the car was using them.
Double post auto-merged: April 15, 2019, 04:32:13 PM
Quote from: sandy on April 15, 2019, 02:31:55 PM
Oh please it was not the best they could do. She died.
Malice? Where did you come up with that. I stand by my opinion no matter how you join the chorus of the OUtstanding (HAHA) care Diana got.
MAF has nothing to do with it yet you are straying off topic again.
So obvious royal.
well he rather has. It was one of his cars, yet you say that it had non functioning seat belts and that it was an old car that had been stolen, and presumably was not fit for safe driving. So if that was his car, why was he using it for his son and Diana to drive in?
Quote from: sandy on April 15, 2019, 03:41:28 PM
Oh please, royal, the guard has amnesia and does not know what happened. Diana always had buckled up.
It is not Publicity Stunt gone wrong, it's a serious matter it's real life. I don't know why you mock something that people DID complain about even medical experts. So go join the choir of TLK and Amabel I don't buy into it and it has nothing to do with Publicity Stunt to say that is just plain disrespectful.
The inquiry found she didn't this time and it was the one time she really needed to buckle up. Tragic? Yes. Conspiracy? No
MAF organized a publicity stunt involving Dodi and Diana. I think it is more disrespectful to people's lives to organize such a farce (and then blame everybody else for the consequences) than to comment about the accident 21 years later.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on April 15, 2019, 04:38:28 PM
The inquiry found she didn't this time and it was the one time she really needed to buckle up. Tragic? Yes. Conspiracy? No
MAF organized a publicity stunt involving Dodi and Diana. I think it is more disrespectful to people's lives to organize such a farce (and then blame everybody else for the consequences) than to comment about the accident 21 years later.
To be fair to MAF I think that yes he did encourage the affair and used it for PR.. but Dodi was to blame also. (poor thing, he was so foolish).
He seems ot have had the plan to use Paul as driver. He refused to have a back up car and would only take Trevor RJ with him.. H Paul was not drunk I think but he was hyped up and taunted the photographers.. and drove too fast...so some of the blame rests on him....
The woefully inadequate security arrangements of MAF, plus his desire to showcase his "prize" in effectively bagging the princess of wales for his son directly led to this tragedy.
A public inquiry examined the level of care provided and it was found to be acceptable in the circumstances.
Pushing my agenda indeed? I think MAF had the biggest agenda in that entire unfortunate posy. It was a publicity stunt to get one over the British establishment and it went horribly wrong. Instead of accepting his responsibility MAF chose to blame and trash others. He is the biggest trasher of all.
If I am "harping on" about conspiracy theories, then I really do not know what you are doing
@sandy. It will be better if you focus on the thread and not other posters. Thank you.
Two people dating of their own free will? I agree, nothing to do with BRF, security agencies or medical team. Their choices.
Exactly. MAF behaved very badly throughout the saga and after. I think he deserves a lot more blame than the medical team that came in to rescue an already horrendous situation.
Quote from: sandy on April 14, 2019, 09:12:10 PM
Oh please we are talking two hours to get to hospital. Is it sarcasm or are you skewing my words saying 10 minutes?
She was not 'trapped' since she could be gotten out, they did not start immediately getting her out.
.
She was trapped. She had to be cut out, that couldn't be doen without the arrival of firefighters iwht the appropriate equipment. Do you think that they could arrive within 2 seconds or cut her out of a badly damaged car "immediately."? As you know becase it has been said over again, when they moved her she had her first heart attack. So they had to give her CPR. That took time. She could not have gotten to hospital any faster, given her condition.
No she wasn't saved. Lots of people are not saved. They are injured in accidents and they die afterwards?. are you saying they all get bad care? Do you really think that surgeons can work miracles? #
As for MAF he's been mentioned because YOU have repeatedly told us that the car they drove in was not safe. And it was his car... so - it follows that he has some responsibility if he kept such a dangerous car and it ws there for his son to use.
They did not try very hard.
She did not even get to surgery in time for crying out loud. You miss my point.
MAF was not there he could only communicate by phone.
And royal dragged in conspiracy theories which have nothing to do with the talk of medical care. Then bashed MAF for his 'hysterics'.
Quote from: sandy on April 15, 2019, 06:37:25 PM
They did not try very hard.
She did not even get to surgery in time for crying out loud. You miss my point.
MAF was not there he could only communicate by phone.
And royal dragged in conspiracy theories which have nothing to do with the talk of medical care. Then bashed MAF for his 'hysterics'.
Just because MAF wasn't there, wasn't he responsible for the cars he kept? If that car was so dangerous why did he keep it? Why didn't he warn his son that it wasn't safe.
as for the medical care, she did get to surgery. The medical people kept her alive long enough to get to hospital and have surgery but her heart was badly damaged as you know.... It was pushed right across her chest. SHe was very seriously injured and some have said that unless she had literally crashed beside a hospital with sutiable facilities - her chances were not good. She got the best care possible. unfortunately, it isn't always possible to save people...
Do you realy think that everyone who dies after a road accident got bad care?
Quote from: sandy on April 15, 2019, 07:19:43 PM
He was not on the spot. Big difference. His son just kept telling him don't worry. Royal brought up conspiracy theories nothing about the car and MAF
No she did not get to an operating table IN A HOSPITAL. Ambulance is not the same.
They did not keep her alive, she was dying when she finally reached the hospital. It took too darn long.
Again how is it not MAF's responsibility if he kept a defective car, for his own son to use? How was it not Dodi's responsibility NOT to use an untrained driver who had had a few drinks?
how exactly (Im asking seriously) was she meant to get there any quicker? She had to be cut out of the car. She had a heart attack. If they had gone on rushing her to hospital then she would have likely died in the ambulance. Same with her second heart attack.. she would have died if they did not stop and give her CPR
It does not matter whether he "deployed the car" or not. He kept a defective car (according to what you have said) in his garage.. which was going to be used by SOMEONE. Either his staff or members of his family were going to use the car.. and according to you, it wasn't safe... How could anyone do that?
Diana did not get the help she needed, in my opinion.
From one of the articles posted, if I read it correctly, they said that Diana seemed to be in a better state than the bodyguard. So they focused on him. Now, imagine seeing the Princess of Wales and just deciding to leave her there in order to focus on someone else.
Waste of time number 1.
And if the medical personnel decided that her injuries were not so severe as to warrant more attention to her than to the bodyguard.
Why didn't they call in more ambulances and RUSHED her to the hospital if she was rather "stable".
Waste of time number 2.
IF her injuries were so severe even on FIRST sight, why did they pay attention to the bodyguard first then?
Waste of time number 3.
If they were BOTH deemed to be severly injured why didn't they call in MORE appropriate personnel?
Waste of time number 4.
Any way you look at it they bungled the "operation".
QuoteFrom one of the articles posted, if I read it correctly, they said that Diana seemed to be in a better state than the bodyguard. So they focused on him. Now, imagine seeing the Princess of Wales and just deciding to leave her there in order to focus on someone else.
Waste of time number 1.
This is standard emergency triage protocol in nearly every nation. The more severely injured/ill person receives treatment priority over other patients.
How does the emergency room (ER) staff determine who to see first? | Critical Care - Sharecare (https://www.sharecare.com/health/critical-care/how-emergency-room-staff-first)
Quote
The system for determining who gets seen and in what order is called the Emergency Severity Index (ESI) and it was designed for use in ER triage by the US Department of Health & Human Services. The ESI is a five-level algorithm that prioritizes patients into five groups (levels) from 1 (most urgent or most acute) to 5 (least urgent or least acute) on the basis of seriousness and the resources that person may need. Triage staff use specific criteria to determine each patient?s acuity. They interview you (just a short talk), take your vital signs (blood pressure, pulse, measure your oxygen saturation and respiratory rate--the number of times a minute you take a breath). If you have pain you will be asked on a scale of 1-10 your pain level. This all helps to determine your ESI level.
For example:
Resuscitation (trauma, cardiac arrest, heart has stopped)
Emergent (life or limb threatening, chest pain, stroke)
Urgent (abdominal pain)
Non-urgent (vaccinated child pulling at ear, cold)
Referred (medication refill)
A well-implemented ESI program helps hospital ERs rapidly identify patients in need of immediate attention, ready resources and allows them to better identify patients who could safely and more efficiently be seen in a fast-track rather than the main ER. This system also allows a busy hospital to more accurately determine the ER?s need to go on ?diversion?--that is, ask that ambulance patients be taken elsewhere as capacity has been reached. Diversion status occurs only under set situations usually decided by the local EMS system.
Note this is from American hospitals but the SAMU system operates under the same protocol. They wouldn't prioritize a public figure like Diana if there were more severely injured private citizens at the site.
A patient that presents with the most severe injuries and/or is non-communicative has priority as they cannot answer questions regarding their state.
Double post auto-merged: April 18, 2019, 02:43:25 PM
QuoteAnd if the medical personnel decided that her injuries were not so severe as to warrant more attention to her than to the bodyguard.
Why didn't they call in more ambulances and RUSHED her to the hospital if she was rather "stable".
Waste of time number 2.
Diana had to be extracted from the back of the vehicle and access was limited due to the state of the car. To remove her safely was going to take time. This was a car crash with flammable liquids (oil/gas) and sparks from their equipment can cause fires. It can take time to safely extract victims in car crashes.
SAMU operates with the "stay and play" protocol that the emergency room equipment and personnel come to the victims via a specialized mobile unit so they can treat the patients on site. There would have been separate ambulances called to transport the victims, there wasn't just one ambulance on the scene.
and once they moved her in the process of cutting hr out, that was when her blood pressure dropped and they realised that she had some more serius injuries, and that moving her was likely to be dangerous...
I don't buy into excuses made for her only getting to that hospital after a very long time. And every minute counts when someone is bleeding to death.
Quote from: amabel on April 18, 2019, 04:39:24 PM
and once they moved her in the process of cutting hr out, that was when her blood pressure dropped and they realised that she had some more serius injuries, and that moving her was likely to be dangerous...
Yes it was during that process that the on site medical team realized that her injuries were more severe than had originally presented. This action put more strain on the tear in her blood vessel. It was only when she was being removed that this occurred. Prior to that, Diana had been lying on the floor of the car with her legs up on the seat and her blood pressure was stable. (Stable being relevant as she had been in an accident.)
Once she went into cardiac arrest, the doctor on site had to treat her and stabilize her condition before transport could begin. With such severe injuries, Diana was basically "doomed" according to trauma surgeons and medical experts.
She was bleeding to death. So if she were doomed then maybe the twisted system would have left her to die on the side of the road.
@amabel-Here is more information from the Operation Paget report.
Diana's "medically abnormal" position in the vehicle with her foot in the well, her agitated state and the injuries that were visible at the time (lacerations, dislocated right arm) made it very difficult for them to remove her even though the doctor wanted to remove her as quickly as possible.
Quote?She was still agitated, moving her left arm and her right leg, her speech was
incoherent and confused. Her right arm was bent behind and dislocated. With my
crew, I examined her whilst putting her on a drip in order to free her and get her to a
hospital.
She was stuck in a 'medically abnormal' position, between the back of the right hand
passenger seat and the rear seat, and with some difficulty we got her out, taking every
precaution, with the assistance of the Fire Brigade. Despite this, during this operation
she went into cardiac arrest and I had to intubate and ventilate her and [cardiac]
massage in order to resuscitate her.?
Dr Martino felt he needed to get her out of the car as quickly as possible, but the
Princess of Wales was struggling and refusing treatment. Her position in the foot-well
and apparent upper limb fracture made removal much more difficult. Having
stabilised her, she was removed from the car at around 1am with the assistance of the
Sapeurs-Pompiers. She then went into cardiac arrest. Following external
cardiopulmonary resuscitation the Princess of Wales? heart started beating again. She
was moved to the SAMU ambulance at 1.18am.
@sandy-Of course you are entitled to your opinion. However by reading the reports, then other members of the public can be informed of the facts surrounding the actions and decisions of the SAMU professionals that attended to the late Diana, Princess of Wales that night. Their decisions are outlined in the Operation Paget report. These were the same facts that were shared with the jury during the official inquest into her death. Based upon this information, the jury were able to determine that the driver was impaired, driving at a high rate of speed and that had the occupants used their restraints that they would have had a better chance of surviving the crash that claimed three lives.
The information that I just shared in my last post highlights on why Diana could not be quickly extracted from the vehicle even though that was the intention of the on site physician. She was in a medically abnormal position, had a dislocated right arm, was very agitated and was refusing treatment from the professionals who were trying to assist her.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=operation+paget+report Here is the link to the report.
I disagree that it was the best medical care. The extraction from the car did not happen right away.
Diana was too weak to refuse treatment. SHe was moaning in pain. Now that's another knock against Diana. She moaned what's happened, how on earth could she fight the rescuers in her weakened state?!
Diana's last words revealed for first time in report | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-423165/Dianas-words-revealed-time-report.html)
Diana went unconscious and with a broken arm could hardly "fight" the rescuers.
'I could have saved Diana,' wept Hasnat | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-403364/I-saved-Diana-wept-Hasnat.html)
Diana's life could have been saved says doctor | UK | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/10321/Diana-s-life-could-have-been-saved-says-doctor)
@sandy-She'd just been in a horrific car accident. Of course she could be agitated and confused. People in pain are often uncooperative with medical professionals because they're scared and in tremendous discomfort. The adrenaline in their system makes them combative and uncooperative. Diana had to be intubated at the scene. That is not easy for patient and medical professionals when the patient is frightened and in obvious pain.
If Diana was twisting around and trying to avoid the lights, equipment, etc..that's not a "knock" on her, it's just what was happening at the crash scene. It's not uncommon for first responders and medical professionals to encounter this type of reaction from victims/patients. (My mother encountered them many times as an ICU nurse, because people are scared and confused.)
QuoteYou were not "there" there are other accounts of her talking then quickly passing out. She was not communicative.
@sandy-Neither of us were there, but the medical professionals who were there had to give sworn testimony about the scene. She was agitated and uncooperative which is not uncommon with seriously injured and frightened victims.
Here is the testimony of the doctor on site who was giving her her treatment.
You don't have to agree with me. However other members of the public might be interested in reading the testimony of the doctor who treated her at the crash scene.
QuoteShe was still agitated, moving her left arm and her right leg, her speech was
incoherent and confused. Her right arm was bent behind and dislocated. With my
crew, I examined her whilst putting her on a drip in order to free her and get her to a
hospital.
She was stuck in a 'medically abnormal' position, between the back of the right hand
passenger seat and the rear seat, and with some difficulty we got her out, taking every
precaution, with the assistance of the Fire Brigade. Despite this, during this operation
she went into cardiac arrest and I had to intubate and ventilate her and [cardiac]
massage in order to resuscitate her.?
THen there is this:
Dr Stephen Ramee, a leading cardiologist at the Ochsner Health System centre in New Orleans said this offered a better chance of survival.
He said: ?We believe that you have a ?golden hour? to save someone?s life, whether it?s a traumatic injury or a heart attack. As soon as you get to the casualty, you stabilise them, then you move them as fast as possible, often by helicopter, to a centre where you can perform surgery. Some people call it ?scoop and run?.?
You miss my point and just keep on making excuses. I am not agreeing with you.
Double post auto-merged: April 19, 2019, 01:53:10 AM
Harry spoke up about the precious minutes after the accident taken by photographers Doing Nothing TO HELP
Prince Harry says same paparazzi who chased Diana's car into Paris tunnel took photos of her 'dying in back seat' | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/prince-harry-diana-death-paparazzi-paris-tunnel-car-crash-dying-back-seat-photos-mother-royal-family-a7907711.html)
Double post auto-merged: April 19, 2019, 01:57:09 AM
Double post auto-merged: April 19, 2019, 01:59:05 AM
Diana crash witness: Emergency services did not do enough | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4808000/Emergency-services-did-not-save-Diana.html)
QuoteTHen there is this:
Dr Stephen Ramee, a leading cardiologist at the Ochsner Health System centre in New Orleans said this offered a better chance of survival.
He said: ?We believe that you have a ?golden hour? to save someone?s life, whether it?s a traumatic injury or a heart attack. As soon as you get to the casualty, you stabilise them, then you move them as fast as possible, often by helicopter, to a centre where you can perform surgery. Some people call it ?scoop and run?.?
Scoop and run and stay and play both provide medical care to victims within the "golden hour." Unfortunately for Diana her injuries were too severe and she succumbed to them despite the professional efforts of many people. My brother was treated with "scoop and run." Unfortunately his injuries were too severe as well and like Diana he died.
Fortunately for Diana she was being treated in the "golden hour" as she had a moblile emergency room with two emergency room physicians there on the site. She was stabilized at the site and taken to the hospital that had the team, facilities and equipment for high level trauma victims. Had Diana been in a remote area of a country with little or no access to 20th century trauma medicine, then I'd agree that the "golden hour" standard couldn't be met.
Helicopters can not safely land and take off in that part of Paris. The streets are too narrow in that old part of the city.
I'm very sorry for Prince Harry. It was a very tragic loss and to know that this accident was entirely preventable must be extremely frustrating for him, William, the Spencers etc.. No wonder he and his brother are not entirely comfortable with the actions of the press even today.
Diana and Trevor were fortunate that an off duty SAMU physician happened upon the accident almost immediately after it occurred. It was due to his swift actions that emergency SAMU teams were there within seven minutes after the call was made.
Quote from: TLLK on April 19, 2019, 01:50:06 AM
You don't have to agree with me. However other members of the public might be interested in reading the testimony of the doctor who treated her at the crash scene.
This needs repeating IMO. :goodpost: You are presenting the facts...people are free to agree or disagree with them or even "stand by their opinion" regardless of the objective evidence.
Quote from: TLLK on April 19, 2019, 02:11:21 AM
Scoop and run and stay and play both provide medical care to victims within the "golden hour." Unfortunately for Diana her injuries were too severe and she succumbed to them despite the professional efforts of many people. My brother was treated with "scoop and run." Unfortunately his injuries were too severe as well and like Diana he died.
Helicopters can not safely land and take off in that part of Paris. The streets are too narrow in that old part of the city.
I'm very sorry for Prince Harry. It was a very tragic loss and to know that this accident was entirely preventable must be extremely frustrating for him, William, the Spencers etc.. No wonder he and his brother are not entirely comfortable with the actions of the press even today.
Di
F
while the paparrazi played a role in the tragedy, IMO it was the way that the Fayeds dealt wth them, that really led to the dreadful ending. True the Paps were callous and didn't care if they upset Di or Dodi in chasing them.. and they were eager to get their picture and problaby enjoyed the conflict about it..
But... even if Dodi didn't want a picture taken, if it did happen it wasn't the worst thing in the world.. If they had gone off at a safe speed and the photographers got their shots, what harm would it have caused?
There were so many other thngs that they could have done differently. MAF could have provided more security than 2 guards.. and Dodi could have made many different choices ot the ones he did. He and Di could have stayed at the Ritz that night, sent staff to get their clothes and left early for the airport.. whch would have probably slimmed down the number of photographers who would hang on all night.. he could have made sure that he had 2 cars, which is usual protocol and not messed the bodyguards around as he was prone to do. He could have made sure that he had a trained driver - not Henri Paul who was not a driver.. and who had been drinking. He could have instructed the driver to go at a safe speed and if the paps got a picture, so what? Instead he got Paul, who seems to have become hyped up with excitement and perhaps with the few drinks he had had.. who wasn't used to this sort of job.. and who took off at a terrific speed outdistancing the paparazzi.. until the crash happened.
MAF could have insisted on Dodi staying at the Ritz. he gave the orders and largely Dodi obeyed. He could have told Dodi to stay, and to send a servant to get the clothes... for goodness sake, Dodi didn't have to pack his own clothes and things.. He had staff to do things for him. there was no need to go back to D's apartment "to collect things".
I don't know what you mean by the first paragraph but I assume you're referring ot the paparazzi.. MAF could have had more bodyguards to keep them at a safe distance from his son and son's girlfriend. Dodi only had 2 whom he messed around with all the time.. and that wasn't enough to keep back a mob like the photographers who milled around when Diana was in view...
QuoteYou talk as if you "know" that DIana would not have been saved since she did not get to the hospital in time. You and the others who ardently defend the treatment seem to think she'd have "died anyway." Diana did not get the chance and you have no clue nor royal or amabel if the quick treatment would have saved her
When I read the inquest report and other articles, I finally discovered that I had a clear information as to what happened to Diana's heart, the process in how she was treated and the decisions that were made. I shared this with family members who worked in the hospital systems in the U.S. with scoop and run and in Germany where stay and play is practiced. The conclusion is that Diana's injuries were too severe. In their opinion, Diana received excellent care and that the doctors at the accident scene and in the hospital gave her the attention, skill and care that any trauma patient would have received. The only difference between the two systems is that the ER stabilization care happened at the crash site via the mobile emergency room and its team instead of in an emergency room. Diana's very unusual and deadly injury to her heart started slow but when she was moved out of the car, the tear opened and she went into cardiac arrest. She would have had the same result even if she'd been at a scoop and run location. However then it would have been a team of paramedics who are limited as to what they're permitted to do as they're not licensed physicians. All information would have to have been radioed back to the site from the hospital. And in both scenarios, she still would have to have been stabilized each time she went into cardiac arrest. Had that been ignored, she would have never made it to the hospital alive. Both systems have merit as emergency care is offered to patients as soon as it is possible.
I cannot condemn a system of care just because one high profile patient died. I took the time and effort to research both systems and to speak to those who actually work in them.
QuoteIf it had been scoop and run she would have had a better chance.
- Sorry but I don't agree with this statement. Her injuries were fatal ones.
I feel comfortable pointing out that Henri Paul's drinking two alcoholic beverages, mixing them with prescription medicine, his lack of training as a driver and his choice to drive at a high rate of speed through one of Paris' narrowest tunnels contributed to the crash.
I feel confident in stating that if the driver and occupants had worn their functioning seatbelts that they'd likely have survived the crash.
If the paparazzi had not been chasing the vehicle and had phoned for help after the crash, the public wouldn't have condemned them.
In the end the official inquest placed responsibility at where it belonged: Henri Paul.
Quote from: TLLK on April 18, 2019, 02:32:52 PM
This is standard emergency triage protocol in nearly every nation. The more severely injured/ill person receives treatment priority over other patients.
How does the emergency room (ER) staff determine who to see first? | Critical Care - Sharecare (https://www.sharecare.com/health/critical-care/how-emergency-room-staff-first)
Note this is from American hospitals but the SAMU system operates under the same protocol. They wouldn't prioritize a public figure like Diana if there were more severely injured private citizens at the site.
A patient that presents with the most severe injuries and/or is non-communicative has priority as they cannot answer questions regarding their state.
Double post auto-merged: April 18, 2019, 02:43:25 PM
Diana had to be extracted from the back of the vehicle and access was limited due to the state of the car. To remove her safely was going to take time. This was a car crash with flammable liquids (oil/gas) and sparks from their equipment can cause fires. It can take time to safely extract victims in car crashes.
SAMU operates with the "stay and play" protocol that the emergency room equipment and personnel come to the victims via a specialized mobile unit so they can treat the patients on site. There would have been separate ambulances called to transport the victims, there wasn't just one ambulance on the scene.
But if she, as has been said, was in such a bad shape from the get to, why did they prioritize the bodyguard?
And if they deemed her more stable than him why didn't they rush her to the hospital?
Both scenarios show a mishandling of the situation, in my opinion.
Some of the most renowned heart surgeons in the world said that she COULD have been saved, and that time was of the essence. Since this is their profession and they knew the sort of injuries she had, I would put heavy emphasis on their opinion.
Ambulance personel aren't heart surgeons. They aren't good replacement for them.
And if they can equip an ambulance to deal with this sort of injury, why couldn't they do so to a hospital nearby who in all likelyhood already had most equipment.
Priority went first to Trevor as he presented as the more severely injured victim. After Diana went into cardiac arrest, then the priority was switched to her. She left the scene first and he arrived twenty minutes after she did.
I agree that paramedics and the ER doctors on the scene at Diana's accident were not surgeons. However she couldn't go to into surgery without being stabilized.
QuoteThe decision to go to PS was taken because the two closer hospitals didn't have the necessary equipment or qualified staff to handle these two severely injured patients. Here is the testimony from the Operation Paget report into the official inquest of Diana and Dodi's deaths.To my knowledge, there was no hospital nearer which was capable of taking on this
type of patient. I would even add that to get to La Piti?, the ambulances would have
driven close by the Hotel Dieu Hospital, which is not at all equipped to take on this
type of patient. In particular, this hospital doesn?t have heart surgery teams, or
QuotePage 517
CHAPTER EIGHT
neurosurgery teams and that the surgical teams are not trained to take on patients
with multiple injuries.
The Bic?tre Hospital and the Henri Mondor Hospital at Creteil are much further
away. The Beaujour Hospital at Clinchy is perhaps the same distance away as La
Piti?, but it takes much longer to get there. It must be added that Bic?tre doesn?t have
heart surgery teams.
The two others had the facilities, but they were either further away or took longer to
get to, therefore requiring more time to be reached. There was also the Military
QuoteHospital at Percy. It too is further away. Or the val de Gr?ce Hospital, which, to my
knowledge, is not equipped to take patients with multiple injuries.
It was therefore my decision to send the two patients to La Piti? Salp?tri?re Hospital,
and it was Professor Riou?s decision to accept them, since he had the technical
facilities available at the time, his surgical teams not being busy elsewhere. I
confirmed by radio link to Doctor Martino, who was going to La Piti? Salp?tri?re,
what had already been envisaged for him by Doctor Derossi. He had already
informed him that the chosen hospital would probably be La Piti?.
Doctor Martino, who was still giving treatment, was informed of his destination
Quotebefore leaving at 1.30am, according to my report and the recordings. He probably left
a few minutes later. I confirm today and stand by my decision that La Piti? Salp?tri?re
Hospital was, in this situation, the best hospital for the Princess of Wales.
Concerning Mr Trevor Rees-Jones, taking into consideration his facial lesions, which
were able to be confirmed after he was cut out of the car, the only possible destination
was La Piti? Salp?tri?re, since it is the only hospital with a specialist team in maxillofacial
surgery which is available outside normal hours.
This type of dispatch is perfectly usual and it is, moreover, the main part of the
medical dispatcher?s job and the choice of La Piti? Salp?tri?re is once again a usual
choice and was a personal choice made without other influences.?
QuoteDoctor Bruno RIOU
Now a university professor. Hospital practitioner in the emergency department
at the Piti?-Salp?tri?re Hospital. He was the on-call emergency anaesthetist on
the night of Saturday 30 August 1997. He accepted the requests from the SAMU
Control to receive the Princess of Wales and Trevor Rees-Jones as emergency
casualties.
French Dossier D4708-D4709
Professor Riou explained his acceptance of the request from SAMU Control relating
Quoteto the Princess of Wales:
?At approximately one o?clock in the morning, the exact times are given in the
mandatory SAMU recordings, I was contacted by phone by Dr Marc Lejay, duty
controller for SAMU 75 who asked if I could admit Princess Diana, who had suffered
multiple injuries following a road traffic accident. I immediately agreed to take her
and notified the entire recovery team of the casualty?s impending arrival.?
Page
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=operation+paget+report
Quote
Regardless, they still had to get her out of the car and that was not an easy task. She was lying in an awkward position and the car was mangled. The ambulances and fire fighters arrived as quickly I think as could be expected but cutting her out was a delicate task and she then went into cardiac arrest. I can't understand why it is not obvious that if they had not stopped and got her heart beating again, she would have died there..and that they then took the decision to drive carefully and slowly to avoid another heart attack if possible.
Double post auto-merged: April 20, 2019, 07:43:15 AM
Quote from: sandy on April 19, 2019, 02:31:53 PM
Nothing is firm or in stone.
THe thing is Diana got no chance to get to the hospital early. You appear to be assuming it would have done no good. Which is a false assumption.
I think she would have had a chance. Interesting how noted heart surgeons agree with this.
Double post auto-merged: April 19, 2019, 02:32:39 PM
THey were communicating by phone. So you are blaming MAF for not "making him."
there was No way to Get Diana to hospital any sooner. this has been said again and again. She had to be got out of the car. the hospitals were not just on the doorstep and took time to get to whether they went by helicopter or ambulance. THey could not operate on her at the site and probably that would have been her best chance of survival.. but her heart was clearly in bad shape having been pushed out of its normal place... If there had been a hospital right beside the tunnel, perhaps she would have survived.. but there wasn't.
As for MAF, according to you, the car he kep forr use by his family and guests was defective.. so if that's true I think he is very much to blame. If he did think it was not a good idea for Dodi to go back to his flat, he could have firmly told him to stay in the hotel. Dodi usualy did what his father said, so he might have seen the sense of staying in the hotel and sending a servant to get his things.
as it is, he didn't provide IMO enough bodyguards, he had set up the whole relationship between Di and Dodi, getting his son to leave his girlfriend and come and pay court to her.. and he was pleased by the affair getting so much publicity, so he should have provided suitable staff and guards to ensure that DIana was safe while she was his son's ladyfirend.
As TLLK has said, a lot of blame goes to Henri Paul, for driving when he had been drinking and had been taking medcation which isn't supposed to be mixed with alcohol. but he was working for Dodi's father and problaby did not dare to say that he couldn't take the wheel.. because he was not a trained driver and had had a few drnks. Dodi clearly overruled his guards at times and it might not have done any good but he should have refused to drive. He did go though and he seems to have taunted the photographers and then took off at a dangerous speed and not slowed down when entering that tunnel...
Quote from: TLLK on April 19, 2019, 05:20:19 PM
Priority went first to Trevor as he presented as the more severely injured victim. After Diana went into cardiac arrest, then the priority was switched to her. She left the scene first and he arrived twenty minutes after she did.
I agree that paramedics and the ER doctors on the scene at Diana's accident were not surgeons. However she couldn't go to into surgery without being stabilized.
https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=operation+paget+report
All of this sounded like they went by protocol. Nothing above the ordinary. It sounds like they were more justified taking the bodyguard there because of his specific injuries.
Quote from: amabel on April 20, 2019, 11:20:21 AM
I didn't say that MAF forced Diana to date Dodi.. but he clearly did force Dodi. Do you really tink that Dodi was madly in love with Diana when he ahd left his girlfriend/fianc?e behind and she was thinking that they were going to get married on 9th August, around the time that Dodi showed up to start courting Diana. Do you think that Dodi just decided one day "Im fed up iwht Kelly, I think I'll go visit Dad's yacht and see if I can get friendly with Diana Princess of Wales?
I don't think MAF forced sin son in anything. I think they worked more like a team, in my opinion. Maybe both Fayeds had their eyes on Diana and were biding their time? Just look at that guy with PB, he's also another one that waited for an opportunity IMO.
Maybe he wasn't all that attracted to kelly, and started to get attracted to Diana? He sounded like a player to me. He did Kelly a solid favour by leaving her, in my opinion.
Quote from: amabel on April 23, 2019, 08:41:44 PM
I don't see anything "slick" about him. He was loyal to Diana, did not talk about her beyond a minimum, mostly in his statement to the inquest.. and clearly still cares about her...
I don't know about "minimum". But it is good that he's kept quiet. It is respectful of him to do this. I still think he's "slick" though.
Princess Diana's Friend Details Final Phone Call Before Her Death | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/royals/princess-diana-friend-richard-kay-details-last-call-before-her-death/)
Princess Diana's friend shares details of last phone call before her death - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/princess-dianas-friend-shares-details-24350044)
First minute-by-minute testimony of doctor's fight to save Princess Diana | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9702355/First-minute-minute-testimony-doctors-fight-save-Princess-Diana.html)
Bodyguard survivor of Princess Diana crash has rebuilt his life | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9702359/Bodyguard-survivor-Princess-Diana-crash-rebuilt-life.html)
Full story of Princess's death and its toxic aftermath is revealed in a landmark series | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9702299/Full-story-Princesss-death-toxic-aftermath-revealed-landmark-series.html)
Charles was asked about Princess Diana note' to Paul Burrell alleging the Prince wanted her dead | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9702303/Charles-asked-Princess-Diana-note-Paul-Burrell-alleging-Prince-wanted-dead.html)
Backlash over landmines campaign prompted the princess to delay return to Britain from Paris | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9706617/Backlash-landmines-campaign-prompted-princess-delay-return-Britain-Paris.html)
Oh my God, what's happened? The fire chief who heard Princess Diana's last words | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9710301/Oh-God-whats-happened-fire-chief-heard-Princess-Dianas-words.html)
A deathbed with no dignity: A shattering account of the hours after Princess Diana's death | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9714317/A-deathbed-no-dignity-shattering-account-hours-Princess-Dianas-death.html)
Last days of Princess Diana: Picture of her boys is placed in her hands.. but one earring is missing | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9714475/Last-days-Princess-Diana-Picture-boys-placed-hands-one-earring-missing.html)
So many conspiracies swirled over Princess Diana's crash. Now the police chief opens his case files | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9723147/So-conspiracies-swirled-Princess-Dianas-crash-police-chief-opens-case-files.html)
Diana feared pal who delivered tapes to Andrew Morton would be 'deliberately knocked off bike' | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-9721223/Diana-feared-pal-delivered-tapes-Andrew-Morton-deliberately-knocked-bike.html)
Prince Charles' Secret Meeting with Scotland Yard over Princess Diana | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/royals/inside-prince-charles-secret-meeting-with-scotland-yard-over-princess-diana-accusations/)
Prince Charles Was Questioned Over Princess Diana's Accident Note | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/royals/prince-charles-questioned-over-princess-diana-scared-note/)
Prince Charles quizzed by Scotland Yard over Diana's death - 'Follow the evidence!' | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1451857/prince-charles-princess-diana-death-police-inquiry-details-conspiracy-martin-bashir-ont)
Doctor who 'fought hard' to save Diana on night she died says 'it's marked me for life' - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/doctor-who-fought-hard-save-24354623)
Prince Charles 'was quizzed by police over claim he plotted to kill Diana', claims ex-Scotland Yard chief - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/prince-charles-was-quizzed-police-24353525)
Princess Diana doctor who battled to save her after Paris car crash says he 'tried everything to get her heart beating' (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15325603/princess-diana-doctor-paris-car-crash-heart/)
Please post articles and discuss Diana?s death in this thread. It would be appreciated if the topic is discussed here only. Thank you
Princess Diana's funeral: How the world laid the People's Princess to rest | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9927273/Princess-Dianas-funeral-world-laid-Peoples-Princess-rest.html)
Articles says late Diana, Princess of Wales not burial with Spencer vault but Diana?s brother says for Diana?s safety and security reasons
Who was really responsible for Diana's death? 20 years after that tragic night, conspiracies live on | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9922565/Who-really-responsible-Dianas-death-20-years-tragic-night-conspiracies-live-on.html)
Long-lost portrait of Princess Diana resurfaces ahead of 25th anniversary of her death - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/long-lost-portrait-princess-diana-27384479)
Rare portrait of Diana, Princess of Wales on exhibit for the first time in London ? Royal Central (https://royalcentral.co.uk/uk/rare-portrait-of-diana-princess-of-wales-on-exhibit-for-the-first-time-in-london-178665/)
To me, that portrait shows a sad deep thinking woman wondering about her life....JMO
Yes it does, but as the article states
?The sketch was done in 1994, two years after The Prince and Princess of Wales announced their separation. Shanks completed several sketches in preparation for the portrait to capture several different emotions.?
So as well as the rather sad, contemplative sketch there were others made which would have shown joy, happiness etc.
Lord Stevens reveals the VERY bizarre gifts Mohamed Al-Fayed gave him - including a Viagra pill | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11141121/Lord-Stevens-reveals-bizarre-gifts-Mohamed-Al-Fayed-gave-including-Viagra-pill.html)
Sicko!!
Quote from: sara8150 on August 24, 2022, 02:25:37 PM
Lord Stevens reveals the VERY bizarre gifts Mohamed Al-Fayed gave him - including a Viagra pill | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-11141121/Lord-Stevens-reveals-bizarre-gifts-Mohamed-Al-Fayed-gave-including-Viagra-pill.html)
Sicko!!
Well with all due respect to a man who lost his beloved son, Mohammed was certainly a very strange and obsessive individual. To still continue with conspiracy theories about Dodi and Diana?s death, especially hinting at royal family involvement years after the inquiry ended was just bizarre. I suppose he thought he was being friendly and helpful to this investigator!
Quote from: Curryong on August 24, 2022, 02:36:03 PM
Well with all due respect to a man who lost his beloved son, Mohammed was certainly a very strange and obsessive individual. To still continue with conspiracy theories about Dodi and Diana?s death, especially hinting at royal family involvement years after the inquiry ended was just bizarre. I suppose he thought he was being friendly and helpful to this investigator!
Agreed
Quote from: Curryong on August 24, 2022, 02:36:03 PM
Well with all due respect to a man who lost his beloved son, Mohammed was certainly a very strange and obsessive individual. To still continue with conspiracy theories about Dodi and Diana?s death, especially hinting at royal family involvement years after the inquiry ended was just bizarre. I suppose he thought he was being friendly and helpful to this investigator!
he has given up promulgating his conspiracy theories.. but that was always the kind of man he was, a fantasist, a horrible employer and person and quite crazy. if it wasn't so sad, it would be funny, the way he was couritng the press until the whole investigation began to go against him and then you saw him attacking a journalist and calling him a bloody fool who worked for M16 or something.