Princess Diana curtseyed

[sandy]

So she should have been a doormat then. She still would have been reviled by Camilla for "being in the way." Charles still would have had contempt for her.

He did not leave her. They led separate lives a few years before the divorce. No Rhett Butler moments.

So Diana should have been a little mouse to CHarles and yes sir no sir to him. And hoped the Great Man smiled at her once in a while she would have been oh so grateful.

Of Course Camilla knew, she was in control the whole way.

How do you know it was a mock curtsy.  Let alone it being "definitely".  You were not there.There were other people around so Saint Camilla IMOwould not want them to see her without the halo and the rude person she is.



Camilla was worse than I thought her if it were a mock curtsy.  What is a mock curtsy, doing a little dance and twirling skirts?

Charles could have made a simple decision. Did he want to remain married to Diana and work on his marriage. Then he would have behaved in a way where there was no other woman on the side and have some respect for his wife. Then he would have been someone committed to a marriage. Charles also could have made another simple decision. Think carefully, did he want to marry a woman he did not love and he preferred someone else? Maybe he could think about the ramifications if his partner realized she played second fiddle. Then he should have broken up with Lady Diana. Or he could have admitted his true feelings before the proposal and she could have broken up with him. Even earlier, another simple decision, is it moral to be friends with two men and sleep with their wives? And stop thinking he was above all ethics. If he made that decision he could have settled down with a wife without the baggage of having a mistress.

Camilla and Charles were not separated. If Camilla did "mock" curtsy (what is that?) she showed what a vindictive person she really is. For all intents and purposes C and D were still married as were the Parker Bowleses.

[royalanthropologist]

If your husband's mistress curtsies to you, it is an insult. They are not showing you any respect and if you think they are, you are quite naive. Diana would have been quite naive to imagine that Camilla was showing her respect if she curtsied. Camilla fundamentally despised Diana, thought she was crazy and ought to be locked up. The curtsy if it happened would have been a mockery.

Diana need not have become a mouse.... but if she turned into a lioness (as she did); she might as well be prepared for the consequences. She is the mouse that roared and then the pack turned on her. She could not cope with the feedback. I would have thought a sensible person would have considered all those eventualities before embarking on her embittered wife routine.

The moment Diana decided to make a fuss is the moment her marriage started failing. Charles was not going to stand there and put up with her tantrums or mood swings for eternity. There would come a time when he would get fed up and leave, which is exactly what he did. If we believe her that she wanted the marriage to work, the drama was the wrong move. It pushed Charles away and withered away the little affection he had ever had for her. She became an irritant in his life.

Charles made that decision actually and was quite brutal in executing it. He no longer wanted to be with Diana so he abandoned the marriage. That decision was quite final and he never went back on it. It was Diana who actually wanted to remain in the marriage. He had long lost interest in her and would only have been delighted if she had kept to herself or taken lovers discreetly. Charles has never ever said he was sad about the separation or divorce. Never. Neither has he ever stated publicly or privately (as far as we know) that he misses anything about the marriage to Diana.

He no longer wanted to be in that relationship and was only trapped because of the restrictions on divorce. Otherwise he would have dumped her in 1983 or shortly thereafter. The way C&D were behaving, it is a miracle they lasted those years. Had they been ordinary couples, that married would not have seen out its second anniversary.

By the time of the confrontation the C&D marriage was an empty shell. Charles had not slept with Diana for at least 3 years. They were not living in the same house. It was a marriage on paper only. Apparently she had tried to seduce Charles with lingerie before that event and he had told her she looked "ridiculous". There was no marriage, just a contract tying them together.

[TLLK]

btw. Thanks @TLLK for that article. It is incredulous to me that Dodi is somehow presented as a better option for Diana than Charles. The guy was going nowhere and his father was just using Diana.

Yes I agree that Dodi was truly "going nowhere" and was duty bound by Egyptian tradition to follow his father's instructions when it came to enhancing the Al Fayed's rise in British society. I'm sorry that it came at such a terrible price. :no:

But Dodi wasn't interested in just any girls. He was interested in famous girls. He hired Pat Kingsley, the legendary publicist of Tom Cruise and Madonna, to make sure he was photographed with his famous dates getting out of limousines and going into LA restaurants. But though Dodi had a reputation for being a playboy, it is far from clear that he was actually dating or even sleeping with any of these women. But he was certainly seen with them. Photographed with them.

I'd thought that if anyone meant anything to Dodi, Denice might have. But I was beginning to realise that the deeper I digged, the shallower the story became. A picture was emerging of a man who, in spite of his immense wealth, struggled to make human connections and used famous women to create an image: of a playboy.

- :no: This is very sad as it appears that he truly had few that he'd bonded with in his lifetime.

Time went by and Dodi remained trapped in this strange luxury bubble, feeling unable to please his father but desperate to do something that would gain his approval. Cue Diana and the summer of 1997. Events were conspiring to bring three people together who needed each other: Diana, unravelling, on the rebound from surgeon Hasnat Khan and keen to use Dodi to get back at him; al-Fayed, at the end of a long road of humiliation at the hands of the British establishment, and Dodi, keen to do something in his life that his father would consider worthwhile.

Ironically, at the one moment Dodi realised his father's ambitions for him, he had simultaneously engineered a situation in which he might break free from him for the first time in his life. In an adjacent bay to the one in which the Jonikal was moored, Dodi had another yacht, with another woman on it: Kelly Fisher, a model, who was engaged to marry Dodi and wore his mother's engagement ring as proof.

A rather pathetic scenario IMHO. :(

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Too many posts to jump in on the last couple pages, by this time im sure we all know what were all going to say....

Excellent info as usual @TLLK very sad, it makes me think of two questions: did he just view Diana as yet another famous girl to be seen with, albeit likely the pinnacle at that time of world fame, or did he see what some of us saw in her as far as a lovely adorable girl?

Second, and it just hit me reading the last quoted bit....do you think that Diana and MAF were both using Dodi in different, yet oddly similar ways for their own agendas? (im sure we'll get letters over this one)  :ahhh:

Bonus question while stirring the pot, aside from looks, as far as a practical arrangement, if a marriage was to happen between Diana and the Fayeds, do you think it would have been better for Diana to marry MAF and have more direct access to his resources and better security than he afforded Dodi?

[Trudie]

I have read the last couple of pages with amusement. First I would like to know why do a few of you think Charles happiness is paramount than those around him? Is he supposed to be some sort of god? Charles is no better than anyone else even if he was born with the HRH the belief in divine right went out the widow years ago. Second is Charles a loser? As Pow no but in a human sense yes Royal brings up his Charity fundraising well Diana raised just as much however she didn't stoop to courting the seedy people Charles has ala Armand Hammer and others to raise money. Having a successful Duchy Royal you give Charles too much credit leading some to believe he is some financial wizard he isn't he has sound advisers making the investments. What makes Charles a loser? to start with his whining tendencies and his belief that he is someone special and others are nothing more than there to serve him and that I might include his parents. Dodi Fayed was also a loser in the sense he had to still be the little boy dependent on his Daddy to give him his allowance and to be honest he was very easily led though his solution to making and maintaining friends was to spread his wealth and buying people for affection and Diana touched on that in a conversation with Rosa Monckton. Camilla is another story the only time she was ever nice and respectful to Diana was the courtship and engagement to make sure this time Charles married and produced the required heirs she herself could never bear. Once Diana produced the boys all bets were off and she totally asserted herself knowing just how to push Diana's buttons. The most telling remark Diana ever made was during her confrontation with Camilla who during the exchange Camilla said to her you have money and position and adoration I believe the adoration was said what more do you want? Diana answered "My Husband" that said it all Diana wanted the love and respect of Charles not the money, position and titles funny how the C&C fans gloss over that one little fact.

[amabel]

Yes I agree that Dodi was truly "going nowhere" and was duty bound by Egyptian tradition to follow his father's instructions when it came to enhancing the Al Fayed's rise in British society. I'm sorry that it came at such a terrible price. :no:
- :no:

I dotn think it had anything to do with Egyptian Tradtion. it was the fact that Dodi was being paid for by his father and had to do what the old man said.

[sandy]

If your husband's mistress curtsies to you, it is an insult. They are not showing you any respect and if you think they are, you are quite naive. Diana would have been quite naive to imagine that Camilla was showing her respect if she curtsied. Camilla fundamentally despised Diana, thought she was crazy and ought to be locked up. The curtsy if it happened would have been a mockery.

Diana need not have become a mouse.... but if she turned into a lioness (as she did); she might as well be prepared for the consequences. She is the mouse that roared and then the pack turned on her. She could not cope with the feedback. I would have thought a sensible person would have considered all those eventualities before embarking on her embittered wife routine.

The moment Diana decided to make a fuss is the moment her marriage started failing. Charles was not going to stand there and put up with her tantrums or mood swings for eternity. There would come a time when he would get fed up and leave, which is exactly what he did. If we believe her that she wanted the marriage to work, the drama was the wrong move. It pushed Charles away and withered away the little affection he had ever had for her. She became an irritant in his life.

Charles made that decision actually and was quite brutal in executing it. He no longer wanted to be with Diana so he abandoned the marriage. That decision was quite final and he never went back on it. It was Diana who actually wanted to remain in the marriage. He had long lost interest in her and would only have been delighted if she had kept to herself or taken lovers discreetly. Charles has never ever said he was sad about the separation or divorce. Never. Neither has he ever stated publicly or privately (as far as we know) that he misses anything about the marriage to Diana.

He no longer wanted to be in that relationship and was only trapped because of the restrictions on divorce. Otherwise he would have dumped her in 1983 or shortly thereafter. The way C&D were behaving, it is a miracle they lasted those years. Had they been ordinary couples, that married would not have seen out its second anniversary.

By the time of the confrontation the C&D marriage was an empty shell. Charles had not slept with Diana for at least 3 years. They were not living in the same house. It was a marriage on paper only. Apparently she had tried to seduce Charles with lingerie before that event and he had told her she looked "ridiculous". There was no marriage, just a contract tying them together.

An insult? Really? I never knew that. So someone curtsying is insulting a royal. This is just plain royal protocol. Even Diana's sister Sarah was seen curtsying to Charles, her ex brother in law, in Paris, when they collected Diana's body. She surely was not being insulting to the Prince of Wales.

Camilla could loathe Diana and vice versa  but she could not show her true colors around the people near them when Diana walked in. She curtsyed to Diana

The feedback was from Charles own friends who wanted to please their master by leaking nasty stories.

A sensible man would never have bedded his friends' wives. And he would have been a better person for it. Charles did not follow the path of a sensible man.

The lingerie story is a fabrication. Diana never said that. She said the day she confronted Camilla she and Charles quarreled and she said "how could you  have done this," hardly the mood for love.  Earlier on maybe she wore lingerie she had to have had sex with Charles since they produced those heirs. And it was not just two times.

Diana would not debase her self to plead with the Great Man after they had a quarrel.

There was a time when Charles would throw things in Diana's direction, make fun of her bulimia, put her down in front of other people, and pull a sink out in a fit of temper. There were times when Diana walked away from HIM, believe it or not Charles is not some deity.

[amabel]

oh for gods sake, it is obvious that if Camilla DID  curtsy to Diana when they had their confrontation, she was doing it in a sarcastic way....

[sandy]

Only Camilla knows the spirit into which she went into that curtsy. So it is a matter that is speculative only. Camilla will never ever comment on it. If she thumbed her nose at Diana or made faces then I would assume that sarcasm was in place. She would have had to be a nasty piece of work to curtsy "sarcastically" I wonder if she got etiquette lessons on the sarcastic curtsy. Unless she said Diana, I am curtsying you sarcastically.This is a new one on me.

Edward VII's mistresses, , curtsyed to Alexandra and how is it known which of them was "sarcastic." Or they thought badly of the wife.

If indeed Camilla was sarcastic then she was a nastier woman than I thought she was.  I hope Diana was sarcastic with her if that were the case.

Unless in a fit of giggles Camilla told Junor she curtsyed sarcastically.

IF this is the sort of woman for Charles it is indeed a reflection on his bad taste. IMO.


On some level IMO Charles likes women fighting over him.

[TLLK]

I dotn think it had anything to do with Egyptian Tradtion. it was the fact that Dodi was being paid for by his father and had to do what the old man said.

Yes I'm aware that he was being bankrolled by his father, but I do believe that Egyptian family traditional behavior with the father calling the shots was definitely a factor.
Double post auto-merged: October 29, 2017, 07:39:25 PM

Too many posts to jump in on the last couple pages, by this time im sure we all know what were all going to say....

Excellent info as usual @TLLK very sad, it makes me think of two questions: did he just view Diana as yet another famous girl to be seen with, albeit likely the pinnacle at that time of world fame, or did he see what some of us saw in her as far as a lovely adorable girl?

Second, and it just hit me reading the last quoted bit....do you think that Diana and MAF were both using Dodi in different, yet oddly similar ways for their own agendas? (im sure we'll get letters over this one)  :ahhh:

Bonus question while stirring the pot, aside from looks, as far as a practical arrangement, if a marriage was to happen between Diana and the Fayeds, do you think it would have been better for Diana to marry MAF and have more direct access to his resources and better security than he afforded Dodi?

You're welcome. Yes I do believe that initially Dodi was instructed by his father to pursue a relationship with Diana knowing that his son had a penchant for being seen with famous female public figures.  I do believe that he likely found her to be charming, but who knows what either really thought about the other? This seemed to be a relationship based upon mutual convenience IMHO.

I tend to believe that Diana would have known that marrying MAF would have been social suicide in the UK and that she would not have entered into such a relationship.

[amabel]

Only Camilla knows the spirit into which she went into that curtsy. So it is a matter that is speculative only. Camilla will never ever comment on it. If she thumbed her nose at Diana or made faces then I would assume that sarcasm was in place. She would have had to be a nasty piece of work to curtsy "sarcastically" I wonder if she got etiquette lessons on the sarcastic curtsy. Unless she said Diana, I am curtsying you sarcastically.This is a new one on me.




IF this

I can't believe that you actually think that IF Camilla did curtsy to her, she was doing it in a spirit of "formal politeness to the Princess Of wales. " 
Double post auto-merged: October 29, 2017, 07:49:56 PM

Marrying MAF??? Who on earth thinks that was possible? 
The man was married, muc older than Diana, vulgar and disliked by most of the upper crust.  If Diana had ever considered marrying a man like that/???
TLLK, I think that Dodi did what he liked, provided Dad didn't intervene.  I'm sure MAF would have preferred it if his son had had some "get up and go" and took up some of the opportunities that were open to him as the son of a very rich man, such as learning the family business or getting into the Army or British upper class and making something of himself. Clearly he wasn't able to/didn't want to. And I think that MAF let him idle around when he could see that Dodi wasn't going to do anyting with his life.
But when MAF saw the chance of a divorced bored Diana maybe looking for a new and rich partner, he cracked the whip and said "leave the model alone, and get here and start paying court to Diana".. and if he had insisted Doidi would have broken completely with his girlfriend (at least for the time being) and proposed to Diana. All to do with the fact that I think Dodi was paid for by MAF and so, had to obey orders...

[royalanthropologist]

@sandy. Are you telling us that Camilla was paying deference to Diana by curtsying to her? Somehow I find that unbelievable. Camilla referred to Diana as Barbie and a mad cow. Now you tell us she was curtsying out of respect for Diana. I do not for a moment believe that one.

As for @Trudie saying that all Diana wanted was the love and respect of Charles, not the titles and privileges. I don't believe that either. She really did fight for those titles and privileges so it was part of the package. What Diana wanted was a man who was hopelessly in love with her and would put up with virtually any demand she set. Of course if you live your life like that you are bound to be disappointed.

She pushed, quarreled and manipulated until he gave up on the relationship. She was not some sweet wife who never did any harm to her cold heartless husband. Far, far from it. By the time he left, Charles was completely fed up with what she was doing. Even the queen finally realized that there was no hope for any kind of reconciliation. Meanwhile Diana paradoxically said she did not want a divorce. Deluded or what?

[sandy]

Well Wallis Simpson knew darn well David's parents did not approve of her but still curtseyed to them when presented at court. It is called keeping up appearances IMO. The parents were polite but George V expressed criticism of "that woman" behind the scenes.

Camilla knew darn well how Diana felt about her and how she felt about Diana but followed custom by curtseying I doubt she felt any "deference" but it is keeping up appearances.

I thought it out of place for Sarah to curtsy to Prince Charles during the tragic time of collecting Diana's body. But again, I guess keeping up appearances rules.

Someone who is low class like Camilla WOULD call the wife names. Shame on her.

I found Camilla decidedly not sweet but I thought her manipulative and ruthless at getting what she wanted. Charles lost his moral compass before he married Diana, sleeping with his friends' wives. A nice man with some morals would never have done that. But that was his set nice to someone's face but knifing in the back and sharing their wives. And the husbands allowing it because after all it IS the Prince of Wales. A lot of women would have done a lot more than push if they walked into a marriage with the husband and the mistress.

Royal, there is no record anywhere of Charles storming out the door of a royal residence and "leaving" Diana. That is the stuff of Cartland novels. IMO. They grew apart and led separate lives. Nobody stormed out of the house. Where would CHarles "storm to?" Camilla's bedroom?

I find Charles very heartless to do what he did not only to Diana but to others. Camilla IMO was a ruthless social climber who undermined another woman.

Why would Diana say she wanted a divorce on TV. You say Charles wanted one but he never said he did on TV. So was that deluded of him or what

Yes I'm aware that he was being bankrolled by his father, but I do believe that Egyptian family traditional behavior with the father calling the shots was definitely a factor.
Double post auto-merged: October 29, 2017, 07:39:25 PM
You're welcome. Yes I do believe that initially Dodi was instructed by his father to pursue a relationship with Diana knowing that his son had a penchant for being seen with famous female public figures.  I do believe that he likely found her to be charming, but who knows what either really thought about the other? This seemed to be a relationship based upon mutual convenience IMHO.

I tend to believe that Diana would have known that marrying MAF would have been social suicide in the UK and that she would not have entered into such a relationship.

I doubt Diana would have married him. She was dating him and appeared to have fun on the yacht. SOmetimes there are no 'motives' just dating for fun.
Double post auto-merged: October 29, 2017, 08:01:33 PM

I can't believe that you actually think that IF Camilla did curtsy to her, she was doing it in a spirit of "formal politeness to the Princess Of wales. " 
Double post auto-merged: October 29, 2017, 07:49:56 PM

Marrying MAF??? Who on earth thinks that was possible? 
The man was married, muc older than Diana, vulgar and disliked by most of the upper crust.  If Diana had ever considered marrying a man like that/???
TLLK, I think that Dodi did what he liked, provided Dad didn't intervene.  I'm sure MAF would have preferred it if his son had had some "get up and go" and took up some of the opportunities that were open to him as the son of a very rich man, such as learning the family business or getting into the Army or British upper class and making something of himself. Clearly he wasn't able to/didn't want to. And I think that MAF let him idle around when he could see that Dodi wasn't going to do anyting with his life.
But when MAF saw the chance of a divorced bored Diana maybe looking for a new and rich partner, he cracked the whip and said "leave the model alone, and get here and start paying court to Diana".. and if he had insisted Doidi would have broken completely with his girlfriend (at least for the time being) and proposed to Diana. All to do with the fact that I think Dodi was paid for by MAF and so, had to obey orders...

Huh! MAF marrying Diana.  I agree that is  quite the stretch. He had a wife and four children and he is still with the same wife. Why would he even think of it.

Dodi proposing did not mean Diana would say yes.

[royalanthropologist]

I am sorry but the idea that Camilla was paying deference to a hysterical Diana complaining about her affair with her husband is laughable. Absolutely laughable. It is argument for arguments sake and makes no sense at all.

Let me put it to you like this about Camilla and Diana. At home Diana was being a nightmare. She was moody, tearful, needy and quarrelsome. Camilla outside was the calm influence. I think after some time Charles just thought Diana was not worth the bother and that Camilla gave him a "quiet life" so to speak.

Camilla was just an easier person to be with. They were around the same age, had the same interests, similar tastes and of course were actually in love with each other. By contrast living with Diana was just not a good experience for him. She bored him with her interests and tired him with her demands for his absolute loyalty.

Diana did everything in her power to precipitate a divorce and then went on to say she did not want a divorce. Just like she did everything to push Charles away and then complained that he left. Charles left her. There is no sugar coating that one. He drifted out of the home and stopped sleeping with her. When she wanted a third child, he was having none of it. He left her. She did not leave him.

[amabel]

Oh please.  this was a private meeting between Camilla and Diana, it has nothing to do with "Keeping up appearances."  How on earth can you actually think that?
IF it happened as Diana Appears to have told the story, then she attacked Camilla verbally, Camilla gave her an ironic curtsy in reply....

[sandy]

Oh please, there were people around Amabel. It was a birthday party with many aristos and socialites present. So if nobody was around, how was it known that the sarcastic curtsy happened.  Can you describe a sarcastic curtsy. I suppose Camilla in a fit of girlish giggles might have joked about it with her gal pal Penny Junor. 

I am sorry but the idea that Camilla was paying deference to a hysterical Diana complaining about her affair with her husband is laughable. Absolutely laughable. It is argument for arguments sake and makes no sense at all.

Let me put it to you like this about Camilla and Diana. At home Diana was being a nightmare. She was moody, tearful, needy and quarrelsome. Camilla outside was the calm influence. I think after some time Charles just thought Diana was not worth the bother and that Camilla gave him a "quiet life" so to speak.

Camilla was just an easier person to be with. They were around the same age, had the same interests, similar tastes and of course were actually in love with each other. By contrast living with Diana was just not a good experience for him. She bored him with her interests and tired him with her demands for his absolute loyalty.

Diana did everything in her power to precipitate a divorce and then went on to say she did not want a divorce. Just like she did everything to push Charles away and then complained that he left. Charles left her. There is no sugar coating that one. He drifted out of the home and stopped sleeping with her. When she wanted a third child, he was having none of it. He left her. She did not leave him.

Did you read my post? I said keeping up appearances which does not necessarily mean "Deference."

Diana was quite calm not hysterical. Do you wish she had been hysterical? Why? She was very calm according to the witnesses.

Charles pushed Diana away. You had indicated that yourself. Diana was in a no win situation. He insisted on  keeping Camilla around. And once he did his duty and produced the heirs that was that. Why is the woman always to blame? Charles is no saint By any stretch of the imagination.

No Charles did not just  "leave her". That's Barbara Cartland fodder. They led separate lives then divorced. Diana did not go crawling to Charles. I guess he might have wanted that being so perfect and all that.

I would say being with a man who sneaks around, tells his married mistress he loves her while married to someone else, gives her presents, wears her presents, and expects his way or the highway. He sounds like a huge nightmare to me and so does the mistress.

Oh it must have seemed needy by Charles for Diana to even quibble about what he wanted to do. If he wanted to play house with the mistress then it was his right, and the wife had better toe the line. I guess Charles lived in the sixteenth century.

Charles must have been hysterical when he put down his wife in public. But I guess because of who he is that is his perfect right to be abusive.

[royalanthropologist]

Any woman that did what Diana did is going to have her marriage ending in a flash. Nobody wants to live in a war zone, no matter how beautiful or popular you are.  Diana was the one that wanted the marriage to continue. Charles did not. She was the one who was in a weaker situation but failed to realize it. If you want your husband to stay with you, the last thing you do is drama. If you do drama, don't get surprised if he leaves.

If you are saying that Charles never left the home then it completely undermines every argument you have ever made about Charles abandoning Diana. So are you now saying it was in fact Diana who left or that they both left? I don't believe that for one second. It was not a relationship of two people who loved and wanted each other equally.

Diana was always the one that had an interest in maintaining the marriage because she would ultimately be the loser in any divorce arrangement. Indeed, that is what exactly happened. As she was downgraded and stripped of her title; Charles was not affected. He was a dynast and the rules did not apply to him in the same way as her. She was dispensable to the crown, he was not. 

Diana was thinking in the moment and not ahead or in the past. A shrewder woman would have realized that upon the birth of Harry, Charles could really leave without any consequence. The heirs had been born and could not be unborn. The only thing that binded him was the conventions that frowned on divorce for a person in his position. Diana had absolutely no power to make him stay in the house if he did not want to.

What then were her options? In my view she either had to stop turning the home into a war zone or go her own separate way (even whilst maintaining a formal marriage for state occasions). She did neither of those things but stayed there, hoping to be a thorn in his side even as he ignored her and became ruder to her by the day. Then she took lovers to make him jealous and to validate herself. That too failed and weakened her arguments of victim hood. Poor decision-making on her part and an inability to think things through.

[sandy]

Oh yes, Diana asked for it complaining about Camilla. She should have meekly made nice with Camilla, shared recipes with her and been delighted that she made Charles happy.  She should have lived for a time the great man, patted her on the head and had a little smile for her.

Charles was enthralled by the mistress who was crude enough to trash the wife.

Which home? They did have several residences. Diana stayed at KP primarily but yes, it is documented she also spent time at Highgrove.  Charles was busy playing house with Camilla and expressly brought Highgrove so he'd be within driving distance of Mrs Parker Bowles. Before he even courted Diana. How clever.

Diana was not the loser in the divorce settlement, she got a very generous settlement, shared custody of the sons she had with Charles and kept her KP apartments.  No it did not happen that she was the loser. She was not dispensable to the crown as the mother of a future King.  The boys did not spring from Charles' head.

A shrewder man and a moral one would not have played house with his friends' wives. He would have moved on when his girlfriend married someone else. But oh no Charles had this big sense of entitlement.

What "house." It makes it sound they lived in the suburbs. They had mansions and residences not a "house."

Oh no Charles could hold his breath and turn blue if he were discouraged from pursuing his pleasures.

Charles did more than his share in turning things into war zones. So do you think Diana should have admired the lovely cufflinks that Dahling Camilla gave him to wear on his honeymoon? I guess wives should behave like doormats.

Diana did not take lovers to make the great man jealous. She did not want to join a convent while hubby played house with his married mistress. It's not always all about Charles.  How did the relationships fail? Because she did not run away with Hewitt and marry him? Then she would have lost custody of the children. She was only a year divorced and did you expect her to marry immediately.  Maybe she wanted to enjoy being single for a while without a dysfunctional husband and his greedy mistress. It is interesting how her bulimia symptoms diminished after she moved on with Hewitt.

[royalanthropologist]

Being "mother to a future king" in no way protects you if they want you out as Diana learnt. Diana is not here but that in no way affects the succession of Charles or his sons. Once the child is born that is it. They are the dynast. You are not. You may be protected as long as you are a widow or married to the dynast but nothing more.

It is preposterous to suggest that Diana lost nothing in her divorce settlement. She lost quite a lot. She was no longer HRH The Princess of Wales and could never be queen. She was forbidden from representing the monarch. Important  and influential members of the BRF like PM and QM disliked her immensely. Some could hardly maintain their manners in her presence. Upon Charles' succession she would have to get his express permission to travel on official duties or to attend state events.

What she was left with was Clairvoyants, spiritualists, fortune tellers, some of her loyal friends, the charity set, her children and a grievance industry that continues to this day.  A woman that at one point was meeting Heads of States was left drifting with the likes of Dodi. Instead of getting the protection that would be her due, she was being ferried write off cars driven by drunken drivers and pursued by paparazzi who were calling her names that are not repeatable. She was being spat at by members of the press to get a good picture for their publications. 

The money in her divorce settlement  is what Charles actually spends on his expenses in a year. Peanuts when you think about it. She lost and hence the bitterness about it all. If Diana was advantaged by her divorce, we would not have some of her fans constantly moaning about how badly she was treated.

You are refusing to accept the reality that Charles got everything he wanted. He has his heirs, the woman he loves and the crown.  That seemed impossible in 1983. He was trapped into a loveless marriage with a woman he did not like and who was unpleasant to live with but could not divorce her. The woman he really loved was married to someone else. Charles at that point was destined to a life of misery with Diana and stolen moments with his true love Camilla.

Then Diana went into her bitter wife mode and everything seemed to fall in place for Charles. At first she seemed to be winning the PR game and had lots of supporters but ultimately she was playing a game she was going to lose. She engineered her reluctant exit from the BRF, leaving the way open for Charles to marry Camilla.

I agree with you that Charles was not shrewd about the whole thing but his position has always protected him from his mistakes. You take on the heir to the throne at your peril. A wise man would never have courted or proposed to Diana. A wise man would have married Camilla when he first had a chance and lived happily with her for the rest of his life. Had he married Camilla in 1974, they would now be celebrating their 45th anniversary. He was too weak to do what was right for him and paid the price for it.  The disaster that was his first marriage was Charles' purgatory for his weakness and indecision.

[sandy]

Yes, it did protect her. Charles and his sons? You mean Charles and Diana and their sons. Charles could not have had them without Diana. William would not say I'm a dynast Mummy now beat it out of here. He would have wanted her close by. Much like Elizabeth II would want her mother around. Why do you see women as inferior or chattel? I am curious.

Diana had the title Princess of Wales. She did not lose that. I do think had she lived William would have restored the HRH. Yes, I think she got a generous settlement.  The QM BTW disliked Camilla immensely so much so that Charles had to wait until she died to marry Camilla. Princess Margaret had contempt for Camilla calling her 'that mistress.' So Camilla could not win with them either.

How do you know the royals could hardly contain their manners with Diana? Who was there to watch on this board?

BTW Diana was still meeting important people after the divorce: Nelson Mandela (who admired Diana), Henry Kissinger, Mother Theresa. Not a bad group of admirers for a woman you see as a nobody.

Do you think she deserved to be called names by the paparazzi? They are the ones to be trashed. Diana did not "ask for" abuse any more than other famous people who get harassed by the paps. DO you think Jackie O. asked for her being stalked by the paparazzi too? Just curious

No Diana won. No matter how you and the C and C fans attempt to debase her and Charles and his cronies attempt to diminish her it has failed. There were lines of people to see the costume exhibit this year and William and Harry paid tribute to their mother.  Just this year too.

A wise man would not have bedded his friends' wives and got involved in a sordid private life. He did not marry Camilla and he moved on. I don't think he necessarily would have been happy with her. He apparently was not happy enough with her back then to marry her and have her as the mother of his heirs. She was not considered good enough by him apparently. Charles was too weak to do right by Diana and not bring her into his sordid lifestyle. He wanted to have his cake and eat it too and he thinks he did.

Diana was not bitter though you seem to be delighted to think that she was. A bitter woman would have sat back, Diana was planning  a future role for herself.  Diana won the PR game. Charles has lost popularity and Camilla is way down the list in opinion polls. Charles paved the way to marry Camilla by blabbing to the media that she was his mistress thus forcing the Camilla-APB divorce.  And he had to wait years to marry her.

Of course Charles got what he wanted but at a price. He got to have his cake and eat it too or so he thinks. Charles I think loves himself the most. And you like this man yet say he married someone he did not like. That speaks volumes of the sheer awful behavior and attitude of the man. By lauding him for his rotten behavior, you are helping to show him for who he really is.

Diana was badly treated you said it yourself Charles married a woman he did not like. It shows there is something really wrong with him.

Why would he care that Camilla was married to someone else? Or Kanga married to someone else? It did not stop him from having affairs with both women. What sort of man acts that way, and they were married to his friends too.

[royalanthropologist]

Unless Diana remarried Charles (heaven freeze over before that was to happen), she would never again be "HRH The Princess of Wales". Neither would William restore such a title precisely because it belongs to the wife of the POW and Diana was no longer that.

Diana, Princess of Wales is a courtesy style that uses "Princess of Wales" as if it was a name. Upon remarriage Diana would go back to Lady Diana, Mrs XXX. She was no longer HRH The Princess of Wales and could never claim any privileges related to that role.

The QM disliked Camilla so much that she allowed her to use her home for trysts with Charles? Strange logic.

Saying Diana was not bitter is another ridiculous assertion. She was and showed it many, many times by her words and behavior. 

You say Diana won the PR game. I say she did not. Being called names and being chased to your death by paparazzi is not winning in my book. Diana invited the press to her holiday with Dodi and they helped to kill her during that holiday.  Once again terrible decision-making.

As usual I will plagiarize one of your comments to show the  kind of nonsense that has surrounded this debate:

"Diana married a man she did not like. It shows there was something really wrong with her."

[sandy]

So? Diana would be Lady Diana again and hopefully have had a wonderful second marriage had she lived.

I did not say William would restore the Princess of Wales title, I said he wanted to restore the HRH. He did not talk about the PRincess of Wales title because Diana got to keep that.

That was when Camilla was "safely" married, she hypocritically let her grandson have sleepovers in one of her residences, with Camilla. Once the Parker Bowleses divorced she stopped receiving Camilla and called her a "schemer." If she approved so much of Camilla, then she would have been pushing them to marry. She did quite the opposite. Charles had to wait until she died to marry.

Yes, the Queen Mum did have strange logic and hypocrisy. Clearly the trysts were sanctioned when Camilla was still "safely married" to another man.

No, you seem to have wanted her to be bitter. Her friends who knew her a lot better than you do.  Said she was optimistic about her future. She did not sit around and sulk like her ex husband tends to do when he whinges about his being miserable when he was growing up. I think the insistence she was  bitter and unhappy is ridiculous. She certainly did a poor imitation of someone bitter and unhappy.

Charles and Camilla try desperately to attempt to whitewash their behavior. I see Junor's book about her as a great big flop because Junor went overboard in her sycophancy over the woman.

I say Diana won it. If she lost, Charles would be universally beloved and popular something he apparently wishes had happened. Camilla is way down in lists of royals in terms of popularity or in her case lack of it.

You said Charles married a woman he did not like. I didn't. Your changing the names means nothing. Diana unlike Charles said she married for love. So your changing words is a moot point.

[royalanthropologist]

So Diana married for love because she said so? Just like she said she never cooperated with Morton? Just like she said she threw herself down stairs to get Charles' attention? Just like she said she never made crank calls to Hoare?

Pardon me for my skepticism.

Diana was the classic embittered ex-wife. Revenge, destruction of Charles was her agenda from about 1989 when she realized that he would never ever return to her under any circumstances. If he behavior in Morton and Panorama was not bitter then I dread to think what she would be like when bitter.

The QM had a fairly straightforward policy. Anyone that makes her beloved grandson happy and is loyal to her daughter is welcome. Anyone who is not is not welcome. Diana fell into the latter category and was hence never mentioned again in QM's household.

QMs fear about Camilla were more constitutional than personal.  With Diana it was both personal and constitutional. She liked neither Diana as a person nor what she was doing in terms of the constitution.

[sandy]

Yes, if you read Morton and heard Bashir she clearly said she loved Charles.

Charles never said he loved her publicly or through a biographer. He told Dimbleby he preferred Camilla when he married Diana.

Skepticism? It is a fact.  The record is that Diana said she loved Charles. Charles never said he loved her. So what are you skeptical about. Do you disbelieve Charles?

What do the phone calls have to do with the discussion. I keep pointing out that Hoare gets a free pass for his pursuit of Diana and Diana is criticized for it. Hoare was a very willing participant in their relationship. Clearly.

Diana was not the classic embittered wife. Charles was  and is the  classic embittered man over his "lot" and his "bad" childhood. Even after marrying Camilla he still whinges.

The Queen Mum criticized Camilla after she divorced and if it were "constitutional" she would not have held a grudge against Camilla as a person. It was personal with the Queen Mum.

I think The Queen disliked both Camilla and Diana.  If she had any liking for Camilla she would have wanted to see a wedding before she passed on. She didn't.

Charles did a lot to try to destroy Diana. 1) he put her down in public 2) flaunted the relationship with the mistress 3) and never really let go of his grudge, cooperating with Junor and condoning the trashing of Diana 4) he made fun of Diana's bulimia. And so on.

. How interesting that on Charles' 50th birthday  held by the Charles parents,  the Queen Mum did not welcome the Camilla to the party and insist she attend and she did not attend not attend Charles 50th  birthday party where Camilla was in attendance. Oh yes, that shows the QM's  real enthusiasm and how she welcomed Camilla.   And even after the Queen Mum died, Camilla was not allowed to sit next to Charles at Jubilee events for the Queen in 2002.

It still remains a fact that the Queen Mum did not receive Camilla after she and APB divorced. She was not welcome. Clearly.

What did Diana do in 1989 to "destroy" Charles. Charles set was quite busy trying to undermine Diana even leaking stories. Charles Dimbleby book was a big whine fest and Charles confessed he was sleeping with married Camilla in his interview and via the book. He and his toadies did their all to try to destroy Diana and even after she died they still do.

[royalanthropologist]

Going round and round in circles about minute and ultimately useless details. The bottom line is this: C&D made a mess of their marriage and it went down the drain. Both C&D were unpleasant to each other but ultimately Diana was the one that stood more to lose. She was impulsive, emotional and short sighted. She wanted to remain married to Charles but undermined that very same objective with her erratic and ott behavior. Diana turned her home into a war zone and eventually Charles got fed up. Just like I am sure many on this forum are fed up of the same old complaints and arguments.