Something I thought about a couple mornings ago when i got up was why in the early years when they (RF) knew Diana had bulimia and was having her see therapists for depression (eg, she left Balmoral early one year to see one) why didnt they have her visit the one that Sarah did to deal with her eating disorder right away?
It seems odd that it took so many years and Carolyn Bartholomew to threaten to out her to get her to see that therapist. I know Diana spoke about how doctors always rush to push pills at women with depression and such, and her speeches always sounded like it was from first hand knowledge, I know in Vancouver in '86 they wanted to push pills on her to get her ready for her evening engagement after fainting.
Might be hindsight, but seems like a lot of years could have been saved by looking at the situation and say "hey two sisters have eating disorders, albeit different ones, one saw this doctor and got better, maybe we should try this first?"
What say you all?
I'm close in age to Diana and I'd not heard of eating disorders until about 1979-1980. I believe it that in the 1980's it was still a frequently misunderstood condition and unfortunately it came with the stigma that is so often associated with mental illness. I do believe that therapists were trying to get an understanding of why people would feel the need to deny themselves food (anorexia nervosa) or binge eat and then vomit it back up (bulimia). It would still take years to discover why people would have the need to control their lives with these harmful actions and to find effective and long lasting treatment. Pills are quicker and would provide an immediate effect, but without psychiatric care with counseling their effects are short term.
Perhaps because Sarah had anorexia nervosa and Diana was bulimic, no one at the time considered that the two disorders were more related than previously thought. Also I'm not sure that Diana like so many with an eating disorder (ie: CP Victoria of Sweden) was ready to admit that she needed help. I'm sorry that Carolyn Bartholomew had to resort to such a drastic step but in truth she likely saved Diana's health with that intervention.
Very good points
@TLLK I remember Karen Carpenter's decline and death was really the first "big celebrity" that died of an eating disorder in 83, if i recall, and it would take time, and im sure even today theres lots they still dont know about it. I remember at the time how baffled the public was that some who could "have it all" as a talented musician would do that to themselves, let alone a princess.
Its true that there might have been some thought that it was a different illness, and also, like a lot of ppl, she seemed to resist getting help, as she felt bad about herself not being able to handle everything. Sadly since she was in the middle of it she didnt give herself enough credit for taking on so much that few ppl would have been able to handle all that. But she was wise enough to know she needed rest and to be looked after, and for people to understand the torment in her head. (sadly few ppl knew but millions would have helped if asked, such was the sad ironies of her life)
Hopefully, the Rf has learned from her experience and let future wives take on duties more gradually. I'm sure too, the RF probably thought they had access to the "best" doctors and such, with traditional British classism at the time, kind of like the Downton Abbey episode where they go with the better heeled doctor when one of the girls is pregnant. I know its just a show, but I just mention it to highlight my example. Also sadly doctors tend to push pills, esp to women, as they like to claim the matter is "all in their head" when really its a real illness causes by traumas in life that we have such little understanding about, even today. It interesting though that she did see therapists, that they wouldnt have gone with that option, but also she might have not felt comfortable at that time going with her own choice in doctor.
Also as well, theres an element of hindsight as well, since we know that was what did the trick, so to speak, its natural to say, well why didnt we do it sooner? But like many things in the story of Diana's life, there's a combination of elements forming a delightfully maddening portrait of grey.
I also think Carolyn also probably saved her life as well and showed her mettle as a good friend. :flower:
Some therapists don't like to have patients that are related. The personal information one family member trusts the therapist with, can make it difficult to not it let it affect the therapy sessions with the other. Similar eating disorders don't necessarily need the same method of treatment.
Good points
@michelle0187 I hadnt thought of that!!
I know that Sarah's psychiatrist Dr. Maurice Lipsedge treated her for the bulimia, but did she have another mental health care professional that she worked with?
You know, I have been thinking about the Spencers and to me that family seems far more dysfunctional than the Windsors were ever accused of. Two of the girls ended up with eating disorders and the son is an exhibit in how not to treat your wife/wives. I think the entire lot should have been in therapy :lol:. At least lady Di did her fair share of therapists. I remember reading a book where they took her from doctor to doctor until one of them told her that "there is nothing wrong with you apart from your husband.
Yes, that was what the doctor
@TLLK mentioned said to her about her situation, and that in 6months she'd be a different person, and not soon after that was the showdown with C&C and the b-day party at Annabelle Elliot's.
Yes, she did see other mental health care professionals, such as susie orback(sp) in later years, and of course in early years the palace had a variety of doctors she saw, too tired to google them all.
IDK about a dysfunction match between both families, both are chock full of them, the Windsors have had the benefit of having courtiers and government working to try and keep their secrets to stay in their favor. True that pretty much Jane is the only one that came out of it relatively unscathed at the beginning, although I think the strain of being married to Robert Fellows and being Diana's sister from the late 80s to the end was hard on her. Her hair is grey and you can see the strain on her face, albeit, she still looks the closest to Diana and my template to what she might look like now.
Sarah being the oldest got to see the worst of the divorce close up, she used to play her records loud to drown out the arguments, she had alcohol problems as well. Jane being kind of in the middle might have been more insulated or on a more even keel, she seemed the most steady. Diana and Charles being the youngest, had the fewest tools for dealing with it. Also they both were haunted by the fact that neither of them might have been born had their older brother John, survived dying shortly after birth.
Divorce being a rarity for the nobility at that time, they got exposed to strains that other noble families didnt have maybe, or at least as out in the open as that, most families at that level had problems, but stuck it out for the estate, etc.
But then the Windsors have Charles with all his baggage of temper and insecurities, cowed by his parents, constantly needing reassurance, PP reduced him to tears the day before the funeral for Mountbatten to make sure he would cry on the day at dinner. Anne being more the son PP wished he had and the first to hit the divorce button, Andrew a layabout (Diana lamented his constant TV watching and golfing) whos known for his questionable business and trade dealings and air miles and being pals with Jeffrey Epstein(oh yeah, forgot Charles was buddies with Jimmy Saville), and Edward, rumors of "fabulousness" have dogged him for years, he went from dropping out of the marines, to his royal knockout press fiasco, then his media company getting him in a row with Charles over covering Will at college, they have their share of messed up stuff too.
Throw in Margaret, HM and PP and its a full deck of dysfunction.
But I believe the Spencers were once called "difficult people" and "good haters" and if you watch the Secrets of Althorp or read about the family history, there were enough clues that what happened could have been forseen. But I think the RF was either indifferent or overconfident, and as desperate to get Charles married off as Diana was to find a prince charming that wouldnt divorce her, and iceberg met titantic, so sad.....
Quote from: TLLK on December 21, 2016, 05:27:38 AM
I'm close in age to Diana and I'd not heard of eating disorders until about 1979-1980. I believe it that in the 1980's it was still a frequently misunderstood condition and unfortunately it came with the stigma that is so often associated with mental illness. I do believe that therapists were trying to get an understanding of why people would feel the need to deny themselves food (anorexia nervosa) or binge eat and then vomit it back up (bulimia). It would still take years to discover why people would have the need to control their lives with these harmful actions and to find effective and long lasting treatment. Pills are quicker and would provide an immediate effect, but without psychiatric care with counseling their effects are short term.
Yes its true that eating disorders weren't well known and at the time Di joined the RF, there were problaboly very few specialists in that field. Charles didn't like Diana being put on Valium but she was anxiouis depressed and nervous and that was the standard treatment. But she herself refused to admit she ahd a problem for a long time. Its no good, even if she had been referred to a specialist in eating disorders, for her famaly or Charles to tell a therapist, "Diana's making herself voimit" because Diana would just deny it and refuse to cooperate.
I think eating disorders were well known. Karen Carpenter's story was in the media and a tragedy. Charles had some doctors put DIana on valium but SHE gave it up after she found she was pregnant. Diana did not have a "problem" until she got involved with Charles. Her friends and employers found her happy and healthy. Stress brought on the bulimia and she was stressed. Charles put down Diana's bulimia and was no saint. Diana's bulimia did ease up after she and Charles became estranged ca. 1986. The royals did not "understand" why Diana got morning sickness. Charles got Diana the wrong sort of help so he was pretty useless. Charles also caused much of the anxiety for obvious reasons.
Quote from: amabel on March 11, 2017, 11:57:17 AM
Quote from: TLLK on December 21, 2016, 05:27:38 AM
I'm close in age to Diana and I'd not heard of eating disorders until about 1979-1980. I believe it that in the 1980's it was still a frequently misunderstood condition and unfortunately it came with the stigma that is so often associated with mental illness. I do believe that therapists were trying to get an understanding of why people would feel the need to deny themselves food (anorexia nervosa) or binge eat and then vomit it back up (bulimia). It would still take years to discover why people would have the need to control their lives with these harmful actions and to find effective and long lasting treatment. Pills are quicker and would provide an immediate effect, but without psychiatric care with counseling their effects are short term.
Yes its true that eating disorders weren't well known and at the time Di joined the RF, there were problaboly very few specialists in that field. Charles didn't like Diana being put on Valium but she was anxiouis depressed and nervous and that was the standard treatment. But she herself refused to admit she ahd a problem for a long time. Its no good, even if she had been referred to a specialist in eating disorders, for her famaly or Charles to tell a therapist, "Diana's making herself voimit" because Diana would just deny it and refuse to cooperate.
Unfortunately treatment is unlikely to be successful until the patient is ready to admit that they need assistance. Fortunately there was a psychiatrist who was finally able to help her with her eating disorder.
I found it odd that Charles of all people (who knew about Sarah Spencer's anorexia and that she was treated by Dr. Lipsedge) did not recommend Dr. Lipsedge to treat Diana. Instead he found doctors that gave her valium which was useless Eventually, Diana did see Dr. Lipsedge with successful results.
Charles may have heard from Sarah herself while they were dating that she had been successfully treated for an eating disorder. However he might not have remembered the name of the doctor who treated her by the time Diana's food issues became known to him.
I'm wondering more as to why Sarah didn't remind her sister that she she had suffered from the same sort of condition and who had successfully treated her. To me that seems more natural than her husband searching his memory, always being conscious that news of any treatment could get out to the media.
Quote
I'm wondering more as to why Sarah didn't remind her sister that she she had suffered from the same sort of condition and who had successfully treated her
I'd never thought about it that way. You're right
@Curryong Sarah would have been the best source of information on it and where to seek treatment.
Double post auto-merged: March 12, 2017, 07:25:01 AM
Quote from: sandy on March 12, 2017, 12:39:28 AM
I found it odd that Charles of all people (who knew about Sarah Spencer's anorexia and that she was treated by Dr. Lipsedge) did not recommend Dr. Lipsedge to treat Diana. Instead he found doctors that gave her valium which was useless Eventually, Diana did see Dr. Lipsedge with successful results.
While both had an eating disorder, they each had a different one. Sarah had anorexia nervosa while Diana was a bulimic. I have to agree with
@Curryong that it wasn't likely that Charles would have recalled which psychiatrist Sarah had seen when she was being treated. Fortunately Diana was able to recover from her eating disorder as we sadly know that not everyone survives.
Double post auto-merged: March 12, 2017, 07:28:48 AM
Differences Between Anorexia and Bulimia
The main criteria differences involve weight, as an anorexic must technically be classified as underweight. Another factor is in anorexia there is typically the loss of the woman's menstrual cycle. Generally the anorexic does not engage in regular binging and purging sessions.
Characteristically, those with bulimia nervosa feel more shame and out of control with their behaviors, as the anorexic meticulously controls their intake naive to the notion that it, in fact, controls him/her. For this reason, the bulimic is more likely to admit to having a problem, as they do not feel they are in control of their behavior. The anorexic is more likely to believe they are in control of their eating and much less likely to admit t that a problem even exists.
Both anorexics and bulimics have an overpowering sense of self that is determined by their weight and their perceptions of it. They both place all their achievements and successes as the result of their body, and for this reason are often depressed as they feel they are consistently failing to achieve what they consider to be the perfect body.
Double post auto-merged: March 12, 2017, 07:30:14 AM
Anorexia and Bulimia (http://www.psychologistanywhereanytime.com/weight_and_eating_disorders/psychologist_weight_bulimia.htm)
I wonder why both girls had eating disorders. Was it something hereditary or was there a common stressor in their lives?
Quote from: Curryong on March 12, 2017, 12:58:05 AM
Charles may have heard from Sarah herself while they were dating that she had been successfully treated for an eating disorder. However he might not have remembered the name of the doctor who treated her by the time Diana's food issues became known to him.
I'm wondering more as to why Sarah didn't remind her sister that she she had suffered from the same sort of condition and who had successfully treated her. To me that seems more natural than her husband searching his memory, always being conscious that news of any treatment could get out to the media.
Diana suffered from bulimia, which IS different from anorexia. Charles knew that Sarah had something wrong iwht her but she may not have told him about the treatemten or who treated her. Sarah said to a journalist later that "we'd like to talk to Diana about her losing weight " but it does not seem very clear if "they" (I presume she meant her family) did talk ot her. Its possible that she too thought of Di's illness as being different ot her own, and not necessarily treatable by the same doctor.
Diana was eating, and vomitign, whch is differnet to not eating at all. SOME bulimics dnt lose so much weight, so they can conceal the illness.
Anyway it doesn't relaly matter if other people got Diana to a doctor, she at the time clearly wasn't ready to talk about her illness and to seek advice. A therapist can't do anything if a patient is not willing to admit they have a problem. Diana clearly thought she was concealing the illness and didn't realise how much weight she had lost or that it was increasingly obvious to people around her that she was very thin and that she was disappearing after her meals to be sick.
Later, one of her friends Colthurst a doctor said "It was obvious what she was doing but you couldn't say anything ot her because she was so very vulnerable."
^ Perhaps the common stressor was the horrendous separation and divorce of Johnnie and Frances Spencer. It has been said that the older girls coped with it all better than their younger siblings, but you do wonder. Jane appears to have been virtually unaffected but perhaps she just had a more phlegmatic nature than her sisters. Sarah seems to have been quite an emotional and volatile girl and it is notable that she drank when she was at boarding school and was expelled for it. Perhaps she just acted out in a different way to Diana. Mind you, family background may have come into play. The Spencers were aristos with a wild side and there were depression issues in the Shand/Work family.
Quote from: amabel on March 12, 2017, 09:40:16 AM
Quote from: Curryong on March 12, 2017, 12:58:05 AM
Charles may have heard from Sarah herself while they were dating that she had been successfully treated for an eating disorder. However he might not have remembered the name of the doctor who treated her by the time Diana's food issues became known to him.
I'm wondering more as to why Sarah didn't remind her sister that she she had suffered from the same sort of condition and who had successfully treated her. To me that seems more natural than her husband searching his memory, always being conscious that news of any treatment could get out to the media.
Diana suffered from bulimia, which IS different from anorexia. Charles knew that Sarah had something wrong iwht her but she may not have told him about the treatemten or who treated her. Sarah said to a journalist later that "we'd like to talk to Diana about her losing weight " but it does not seem very clear if "they" (I presume she meant her family) did talk ot her. Its possible that she too thought of Di's illness as being different ot her own, and not necessarily treatable by the same doctor.
Diana was eating, and vomitign, whch is differnet to not eating at all. SOME bulimics dnt lose so much weight, so they can conceal the illness.
Anyway it doesn't relaly matter if other people got Diana to a doctor, she at the time clearly wasn't ready to talk about her illness and to seek advice. A therapist can't do anything if a patient is not willing to admit they have a problem. Diana clearly thought she was concealing the illness and didn't realise how much weight she had lost or that it was increasingly obvious to people around her that she was very thin and that she was disappearing after her meals to be sick.
Later, one of her friends Colthurst a doctor said "It was obvious what she was doing but you couldn't say anything ot her because she was so very vulnerable."
They are both eating disorders. Lipsedge was able to treat both Sarah and Diana.
Diana's bones were sticking out she did show that she had an eating disorder especially ca.late 1982
Quote from: Curryong on March 12, 2017, 10:15:33 AM
^ Perhaps the common stressor was the horrendous separation and divorce of Johnnie and Frances Spencer. It has been said that the older girls coped with it all better than their younger siblings, but you do wonder. Jane appears to have been virtually unaffected but perhaps she just had a more phlegmatic nature than her sisters.
I think that all of them except Jane (it seems) were affected by the unpleasant divorce and I tink then later by JOhnny Spencer's remarriage. (ad the way he shut himself away after his wife left him).
I think it hit Charles and Diana worst as the 2 youngest who felt very much left alone when their mother left them. Botht of them had problems. Charles has been criticised as being a bully and had 2 failed marriages. Diana had one failed marriage and a lot of emotional problems. But Sarah too was affected... she drank at school and was nearly expelled. and I think that eating disorders, like alcoholism can often run in a family.
Someone has said (I forget who) that perhaps Sarah after her anorexia, made a sensible choice of a quiet life with a gentleman farmer, and didn't try for anyting more glamourous.. and that that's what a girl with her emotional problems needed, a quiet steady husband wtih a quiet country life...who would look after her. Diana reached for a grand marriage, and also of course hoped that she had made a marriage that could not end in divorce.. but the pressures of public life, and a difficult marriage brought out her problems and she became ill.
Diana did not have a "lot" of emotional problems. She was reportedly happy and healthy by her friends and employers pre marriage. She was brought into a situation of great stress and managed to work to control the bulimia. I think Charles, her husband had and has many hangups and unfair expectations of what he wanted in the marriage. Sarah did want a glamorous marriage to the Duke of Westminster and he dropped her. Had things worked out with them, I think she would have said yes in a heartbeat to his proposal. Charles "reached" for Diana since she was aristo, fertile, pretty and had no past. He was turned down by other ladies. Diana wanted a marriage. As she told Settelen, she said to Camilla in their confrontation "I want my husband." That about sums up her expectations.
Quote from: Curryong on March 12, 2017, 10:15:33 AM
^ Perhaps the common stressor was the horrendous separation and divorce of Johnnie and Frances Spencer. It has been said that the older girls coped with it all better than their younger siblings, but you do wonder. Jane appears to have been virtually unaffected but perhaps she just had a more phlegmatic nature than her sisters. Sarah seems to have been quite an emotional and volatile girl and it is notable that she drank when she was at boarding school and was expelled for it. Perhaps she just acted out in a different way to Diana. Mind you, family background may have come into play. The Spencers were aristos with a wild side and there were depression issues in the Shand/Work family.
I have to agree
@Curryong.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on December 23, 2016, 08:46:39 PM
You :. At least lady Di did her fair share of therapists. I remember reading a book where they took her from doctor to doctor until one of them told her that "there is nothing wrong with you apart from your husband.
WHO took her from doctor to doctor? And what doctor said this?? I've never heard it. And it does not make sense. Eating disorders are complex illnesses and not likely to sprng from one cause. Diana clearly had problems before she met Charles but I think if she had had a quiet life, they might have lain dormant.
Diana did not have the eating disorder before she got engaged to Charles. Her employers and friends attest to this. THe stress was brought on after the engagement.
Quote from: amabel on March 28, 2017, 07:20:31 PM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on December 23, 2016, 08:46:39 PM
You :. At least lady Di did her fair share of therapists. I remember reading a book where they took her from doctor to doctor until one of them told her that "there is nothing wrong with you apart from your husband.
WHO took her from doctor to doctor? And what doctor said this?? I've never heard it. And it does not make sense. Eating disorders are complex illnesses and not likely to sprng from one cause. Diana clearly had problems before she met Charles but I think if she had had a quiet life, they might have lain dormant.
Hard to say because even everyday life concerns could trigger one ie: Loss of control due to job loss or a sick family member. With Sarah also having an eating disorder it is likely that one of her siblings could have a genetic predisposition to them.
There may not have been a genetic component to Sarah and Diana's illnesses, but I believe there was a family history on both sides of depression and other disorders. Frances grew up a very independent minded person but it was made clear to her and her sister that they must make good marriages and pressure was put on them from their mid teens by their mother Ruth to do so. Both Frances and her sister had a couple of marriages end in divorce and, like her brother, I believe Frances suffered from depression. In her case at low points in her life she dulled the pain with alcohol.
Frances also was seriously ill at the end of her life. She also was heartbroken that the royals did not call her and offer their condolences for Diana's death and she was never allowed to see her daughter's body before she was buried.
Frances was an alcoholic by the time of her death. She was not speaking to Diana by the time the late princess died. Apparently she had called Diana names, which if repeated by anyone else might be considered to be a hate crime. As for calling her to offer condolence, I think it is a bit much considering her behavior and the state of the relationship. I understand she wrote a codicil in her will, effectively dis-inviting the prince of wales from her funeral...and some people dare to call the Windsors vindictive.
Diana had wealth but a horrendous family life. Those dysfunctional Spencers make the Windsors look like the perfect family. All the funeral arrangements were led by Frances children. She could have called them to say she wanted to see the body. Frankly speaking, I would be very surprised if the Prince of Wales had any further communication with her. She was bad news and they might have preferred to just let her stew in her grievances. She had done enough of that for most of her life. Even at Diana's wedding, Johnny Spencer could hardly tolerate being next to her. You could see the tensions, all those years after the divorce. If Diana was looking for a role model, Francis was not ideal.
Quote from: Curryong on March 28, 2017, 11:00:20 PM
There may not have been a genetic component to Sarah and Diana's illnesses, but I believe there was a family history on both sides of depression and other disorders. Frances grew up a very independent minded person but it was made clear to her and her sister that they must make good marriages and pressure was put on them from their mid teens by their mother Ruth to do so. Both Frances and her sister had a couple of marriages end in divorce and, like her brother, I believe Frances suffered from depression. In her case at low points in her life she dulled the pain with alcohol.
@Curryong-I did discover this information recently that eating disorders like other mental illnesses can have a genetic component with siblings being at risk of developing them. They're also prone to OCD, BPD and depression.
QuoteFactors that may be involved in developing an eating disorder include:
Genetics. People with first degree relatives, siblings or parents, with an eating disorder appear to be more at risk of developing an eating disorder, too. This suggests a genetic link. Evidence that the brain chemical, serotonin, is involved also points a contributing genetic and biological factors.
Environment. Cultural pressures that stress "thinness" as beautiful for women and muscular development and body size for men places undue pressure on people of achieve unrealistic standards. Popular culture and media images often tie being thin to popularity, success, beauty and happiness. This creates a strong desire to very thin.
Peer Pressure. With young people, this can be a very powerful force. Pressure can appear in the form of teasing, bullying or ridicule because of size or weight. A history of physical or sexual abuse can also contribute to some people developing an eating disorder.
Emotional Health. Perfectionism, impulsive behavior and difficult relationships can all contribute to lowering a person's self-esteem and make them vulnerable to developing eating disorders.
Eating disorders affect all types of people. However there are certain risk factors that put some people at greater risk for developing an eating disorder.
Age. Eating disorders are much more common during teens and early 20s.
Gender. Statistically, teenage girls and young women are more likely to have eating disorders, but they are more likely to be noticed/treated for one. Teenage boys and men are less likely seek help, but studies show that 1 out of 10 people diagnosed with eating disorders are male.
Family history. Having a parent or sibling with an eating disorder increases the risk.
Dieting. Dieting taken too far can become an eating disorder.
Changes. Times of change like going to college, starting a new job, or getting divorced may be a stressor towards developing an eating disorder.
Vocations and activities. Eating disorders are especially common among gymnasts, runners, wrestlers and dancers.
Diagnosis
A person with an eating disorder will have the best recovery outcome if he or she receives an early diagnosis. If an eating disorder is believed to an issue, a doctor will usually perform a physical examination, conduct an interview and order lab tests. These will help form the diagnosis and check for related medical issues and complications.
In addition, a mental health professional will conduct a psychological evaluation. She may ask questions about eating habits, behaviors and beliefs. There may be questions about a patient's history of dieting, exercise, bingeing and purging.
Symptoms must meet the criteria in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM) in order to warrant a diagnosis. Each eating disorder has its own diagnostic criteria that a mental health professional will use to determine which disorder is involved. It is not necessary to have all the criteria for a disorder to benefit from working with a mental health professional on food and eating issues.
Often a person with an eating disorder will have symptoms of another mental health condition that requires treatment. Whenever possible, it is best to identified and address all conditions at the same time. This gives a person comprehensive treatment support that helps insure a lasting recovery.
Treatment
Eating disorders are managed using a variety of techniques. Treatments will vary depending on the type of disorder, but will generally include the following.
Psychotherapy, such as talk therapy or behavioral therapy.
Medicine, such as antidepressants and anti-anxiety drugs. Many people living with an eating disorder often have a co-occurring illness like depression or anxiety, and while there is no medication available to treat eating disorders themselves, many patients find that these medicines help with underlying issues.
Nutritional counseling and weight restoration monitoring are also crucial. Family based treatment is especially important for families with children and adolescents because it enlists the families' help to better insure healthy eating patterns, and increases awareness and support.
Related Conditions
People with eating disorders often have additional illnesses:
Depression
Anxiety disorders
Borderline personality disorder
Obsessive-compulsive disorder
Substance abuse
Treating these illnesses can help make treating an eating disorder easier. Some of the symptoms of eating disorders may be caused by another ilnesss.
Find your local NAMI
- See more at: http://www.nami.org/Learn-More/Mental-Health-Conditions/Eating-Disorders#sthash.K8DDK2kb.dpuf
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 28, 2017, 11:43:27 PM
Frances was an alcoholic by the time of her death. She was not speaking to Diana by the time the late princess died. Apparently she had called Diana names, which if repeated by anyone else might be considered to be a hate crime. As for calling her to offer condolence, I think it is a bit much considering her behavior and the state of the relationship. I understand she wrote a codicil in her will, effectively dis-inviting the prince of wales from her funeral...and some people dare to call the Windsors vindictive.
Diana had wealth but a horrendous family life. Those dysfunctional Spencers make the Windsors look like the perfect family. All the funeral arrangements were led by Frances children. She could have called them to say she wanted to see the body. Frankly speaking, I would be very surprised if the Prince of Wales had any further communication with her. She was bad news and they might have preferred to just let her stew in her grievances. She had done enough of that for most of her life. Even at Diana's wedding, Johnny Spencer could hardly tolerate being next to her. You could see the tensions, all those years after the divorce. If Diana was looking for a role model, Francis was not ideal.
No the "drink" was not the cause of death. Frances was quite ill and no it was not from drinking. SHe had Parkinson's Disease and died of a Brain Tumor.
She was still the mother of Prince Charles' ex and maternal grandmother of PRince Charles' children. It would have been simple politeness for them (the Queen did not bother to offer condolences, I don't think she was expecting anything from her ex son in law) to offer condolences. They don't have to like the person. It made them look boorish to snub her like that IMO.
Frances and Charles did not get along. She did not like the way he treated Diana and his attitude towards her. She was perfectly free to bar him and just invite her grandsons by Diana. I say good for her for not wanting the hypocrisy of his "mourning her." He had divorced her daughter and was no longer her son in law.
Oh please, the Windsors are full of dysfunctional people. It would take too long to recount some of the more bizarre members of the clan.
I don't think Frances cared if the Great Man did not pay attention to her.
Thank you, TLLK. That makes very interesting reading. Although Sarah had a different sort of eating disorder to her sister I do wonder why the two couldn't have got together at the start of Diana's bulimia and talked things over. Sarah could have suggested some techniques she had been taught, if any, to counter it.
At the very least the two of them could have shared this, talked about options, therapists etc. I guess the rivalry the two siblings had, unspoken at times, got in the way. It's also pretty sad that Victoria, Charles Spencer's wife also had issues with addictions but had to deal with them, and a bad marriage, on her own. All these separate self-contained little units, with serious problems, never confiding in each other. Awful really.
Ps The point of my previous post though was really to point out that there could have been a propensity towards depression in the Roche family which perhaps added to Diana's burdens. I also believe that there was a history of depression in the Windsor family, especially among George V's sons.
Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2017, 12:13:44 AM
Thank you, TLLK. That makes very interesting reading. Although Sarah had a different sort of eating disorder to her sister I do wonder why the two couldn't have got together at the start of Diana's bulimia and talked things over. Sarah could have suggested some techniques she had been taught, if any, to counter it.
At the very least the two of them could have shared this, talked about options, therapists etc. I guess the rivalry the two siblings had, unspoken at times, got in the way. It's also pretty sad that Victoria, Charles Spencer's wife also had issues with addictions but had to deal with them, and a bad marriage, on her own. All these separate self-contained little units, with serious problems, never confiding in each other. Awful really.
Ps The point of my previous post though was really to point out that there could have been a propensity towards depression in the Roche family which perhaps added to Diana's burdens.
QuoteThank you, TLLK. That makes very interesting reading. Although Sarah had a different sort of eating disorder to her sister I do wonder why the two couldn't have got together at the start of Diana's bulimia and talked things over. Sarah could have suggested some techniques she had been taught, if any, to counter it.
At the very least the two of them could have shared this, talked about options, therapists etc. I guess the rivalry the two siblings had, unspoken at times, got in the way. It's also pretty sad that Victoria, Charles Spencer's wife also had issues with addictions but had to deal with them, and a bad marriage, on her own. All these separate self-contained little units, with serious problems, never confiding in each other. Awful really.
Ps The point of my previous post though was really to point out that there could have been a propensity towards depression in the Roche family which perhaps added to Diana's burdens. I also believe that there was a history of depression in the Windsor family, especially among George V's sons.
Double post auto-merged: Today at 06:13:44 AM
It is sad that Sarah was unable to help both Diana and Victoria because she likely understood better than anyone the hell that they were going through. However there is such a stigma that exists even today about any discussion of mental illness. I sincerely hope that with the efforts that the Cambridges and Prince Harry are undertaking to spotlight the organizations that can help the many forms of mental illness that people will seek treatment for themselves and their loved ones.
Yes there is a genetic tendency for depression among the members of the BRF and those who have married into the family. Katherine Kent is one of the best known members of the family who has bravely acknowledged her own struggles and treatment.
@royalanthropologist -Sadly Frances was an alcoholic toward the end of her life. She understandably had issues with depression along with other medical issues.
Charles paternal grandmother had to be committed for a time. She managed to overcome her illness and worked for charitable endeavors.
There is now more attention to eating disorders not because of William and Harry and Kate but because there are more people coming forward. A big problem happens when young women starve themselves to become fashion models and have body image problems.
QuoteCharles paternal grandmother had to be committed for a time. She managed to overcome her illness and worked for charitable endeavors.
Yes Princess Alice was committed to an institution during Phillip's childhood. Perhaps in later decades her mental illness could have been treated with medication and talk therapy.
You are quite right about the cause of death (re Frances) and all my sympathies for anyone that suffers from those two conditions.
However, that does not remove the fact that Frances was an alcoholic with a less than functional relationship with her daughter. I doubt Prince Charles was particularly bothered by being dis-invited to the funeral of his former mother-in-law. He never liked her and she never liked him. They were not really important to one another. Her death was not a state occasion which required his attendance. That codicil was just attention-seeking by a woman that was preoccupied with real and imaginary grievances.
The problem with the Spencers (with the possible exception of the older girl and Johnny) is that they crave attention and are super vindictive. They go on these plotting and revenge schemes that hurt nobody but themselves. Of course Charles could have retaliated by banning his children from the funeral but thankfully he is more sensible than that.
I remember when Charles Spencer had the nerve to suggest that he has an open door policy for Charles to visit Diana's grave. Silly man; the only reason that Diana is locked way in a cold island (away from her true place at Frogmore or Westminster Abbey) is because of the pettiness and vindictivness of that man. At least he got some money from all those visitors. Protecting her legacy my foot: the man is a prize chump and has exploited his sister to the maximum. Hopefully when William is King, he will inter Diana in a suitably royal place.
There were lots of rumours following Diana's funeral that she is not in fact buried in that rather isolated and marshy island on the Althorp estate, but in the nearby village church, long associated with the Spencer family. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. The church vaults include her grandmother Cynthia Spencer, whom Diana regarded as a sort of guardian angel, a very gentle and good woman who was bullied by a cold and detached husband.
The theory goes that the re-internment took place in the utmost secrecy in case the small village was besieged by coach loads of visitors and swamped by media interest. More seriously they were worried about break ins at the church by ghouls or someone wishing to steal the coffin.
It was her business. HOw can one be attention seeking after she is dead?
Charles would never bar his children from attending his grandmother's funeral. He would really seem unhinged if he did that.
The royals are pretty darn petty too. Wallis Simpson was fully entitled to be HRH upon marrying the DUke of Windsor. The royals made sure she did not get what she was entitled to. Charles was petty about his own parents and bashed them to his biographer.
@Curryong. If that is true then Charles Spencer has some decency left. That marshy island was a true disgrace.
Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2017, 01:37:22 AM
All true
@sandy (about the royal pettiness) but not really relevant to my comment on Frances. Yes, one can be petty in death. For example writing codicils dis-inviting people who you are certain are unlikely to attend your funeral. Charles was the only remaining parent to those children and they were under age. He could have barred them without any consequence to him or the royal family. They themselves could have stayed away, just like they did when Charles was marrying one of his many wives.
Quote from: Curryong on March 29, 2017, 01:24:51 AM
There were lots of rumours following Diana's funeral that she is not in fact buried in that rather isolated and marshy island on the Althorp estate, but in the nearby village church, long associated with the Spencer family. I wouldn't be surprised if it's true. The church vaults include her grandmother Cynthia Spencer, whom Diana regarded as a sort of guardian angel, a very gentle and good woman who was bullied by a cold and detached husband.
The theory goes that the re-internment took place in the utmost secrecy in case the small village was besieged by coach loads of visitors and swamped by media interest. More seriously they were worried about break ins at the church by ghouls or someone wishing to steal the coffin.
I believe that she's now buried in the church and not on the island. The marshy environment of the artificial island would create issues for it to be a permanent resting place.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 29, 2017, 01:33:07 AM
@Curryong. If that is true then Charles Spencer has some decency left. That marshy island was a true disgrace.
Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2017, 01:37:22 AM
All true @sandy (about the royal pettiness) but not really relevant to my comment on Frances. Yes, one can be petty in death. For example writing codicils dis-inviting people who you are certain are unlikely to attend your funeral. Charles was the only remaining parent to those children and they were under age. He could have barred them without any consequence to him or the royal family. They themselves could have stayed away, just like they did when Charles was marrying one of his many wives.
Why is it not relevant? Frances did not operate in a vacuum. She was not petty, it was what she wanted to do. She did not live under a dictatorship after all nor should she have. Charles would have known darn well he'd get skewered if he told his sons they could not attend their grandmother's funeral. The Queen would have had to stop in and stop the insanity of her son. Charles Spencer had 3 wives, Charles Windsor is no better with his married mistresses.
I think Frances had Charles number. Charles was hypocritical enough to want Camilla to attend his late ex wife's memorial service.
Quote from: TLLK on March 29, 2017, 12:26:29 AM
QuoteCharles paternal grandmother had to be committed for a time. She managed to overcome her illness and worked for charitable endeavors.
Yes Princess Alice was committed to an institution during Phillip's childhood. Perhaps in later decades her mental illness could have been treated with medication and talk therapy.
I think it was soemthign to do with the Menopause...
Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2017, 07:21:35 PM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 29, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
You are quite right about the cause of death (re Frances) and all my sympathies for anyone that suffers from those two conditions.
However, that does not remove the fact that Frances was an alcoholic with a less than functional relationship with her daughter. I doubt Prince Charles was particularly bothered by being dis-invited to the funeral of his former mother-in-law. He never liked her and she never liked him. They were not really important to one another. Her death was not a state occasion which required his attendance. That codicil was just attention-seeking by a woman that was preoccupied with real and imaginary grievances.
The problem with the Spencers (with the possible exception of the older girl and Johnny) is that they crave attention and are super vindictive. They go on these plotting and revenge schemes that hurt nobody but themselves. Of course Charles could have retaliated by banning his children from the funeral but thankfully he is more sensible than that.
I remember when Charles Spencer had the nerve to suggest that he has an open door policy for Charles to visit Diana's grave. Silly man; the only reason that Diana is locked way in a cold island (away from her true place at Frogmore or Westminster Abbey) is because of the pettiness and vindictivness of that man. At least he got some money from all those visitors. Protecting her legacy my foot: the man is a prize chump and has exploited his sister to the maximum. Hopefully when William is King, he will inter Diana in a suitably royal place.
sorry but that's absolutely wrong. It was nothing to do with Chalres S, the RF would never have wanted Diana to be interred with them and she I'm sure would not have wanted it either. Why would she want to lie close to a family whom she disliked and who dislked her? She was not royal except in a very vague sense, after her divorce and there was no way the RF/ QUeen would have wanted her buried among them.
QuoteI think it was soemthign to do with the Menopause...
I thought that she'd been diagnosed with schizophrenia.
Quote from: amabel on March 29, 2017, 07:18:25 PM
Quote from: TLLK on March 29, 2017, 12:26:29 AM
QuoteCharles paternal grandmother had to be committed for a time. She managed to overcome her illness and worked for charitable endeavors.
Yes Princess Alice was committed to an institution during Phillip's childhood. Perhaps in later decades her mental illness could have been treated with medication and talk therapy.
I think it was soemthign to do with the Menopause...
Double post auto-merged: March 29, 2017, 07:21:35 PM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 29, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
You are quite right about the cause of death (re Frances) and all my sympathies for anyone that suffers from those two conditions.
However, that does not remove the fact that Frances was an alcoholic with a less than functional relationship with her daughter. I doubt Prince Charles was particularly bothered by being dis-invited to the funeral of his former mother-in-law. He never liked her and she never liked him. They were not really important to one another. Her death was not a state occasion which required his attendance. That codicil was just attention-seeking by a woman that was preoccupied with real and imaginary grievances.
The problem with the Spencers (with the possible exception of the older girl and Johnny) is that they crave attention and are super vindictive. They go on these plotting and revenge schemes that hurt nobody but themselves. Of course Charles could have retaliated by banning his children from the funeral but thankfully he is more sensible than that.
I remember when Charles Spencer had the nerve to suggest that he has an open door policy for Charles to visit Diana's grave. Silly man; the only reason that Diana is locked way in a cold island (away from her true place at Frogmore or Westminster Abbey) is because of the pettiness and vindictivness of that man. At least he got some money from all those visitors. Protecting her legacy my foot: the man is a prize chump and has exploited his sister to the maximum. Hopefully when William is King, he will inter Diana in a suitably royal place.
sorry but that's absolutely wrong. It was nothing to do with Chalres S, the RF would never have wanted Diana to be interred with them and she I'm sure would not have wanted it either. Why would she want to lie close to a family whom she disliked and who dislked her? She was not royal except in a very vague sense, after her divorce and there was no way the RF/ QUeen would have wanted her buried among them.
As I recall, the Queen did offer Frogmore as a burial place for Diana but the Spencers did not want her there. They put the Spencer standard over her casket and buried her at Althorp. Diana was not royal in any vague sense. I don't know why the mother of a future monarch should be in any "vague" sense. It seems crystal clear to me.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 29, 2017, 01:01:49 AM
I remember when Charles Spencer had the nerve to suggest that he has an open door policy for Charles to visit Diana's grave. Silly man; the only reason that Diana is locked way in a cold island (away from her true place at Frogmore or Westminster Abbey) is because of the pettiness and vindictivness of that man. At least he got some money from all those visitors. Protecting her legacy my foot: the man is a prize chump and has exploited his sister to the maximum. Hopefully when William is King, he will inter Diana in a suitably royal place.
I agree with you about Fatty man greedy Spencer.
Quote from: TLLK on March 29, 2017, 08:28:48 PM
QuoteI think it was soemthign to do with the Menopause...
I thought that she'd been diagnosed with schizophrenia.
I'm not sure... I thought that it was something that came along in middle age.. but I think that Schizophrenia can sometimes "burst out" in mid life. She was OK as a younger woman
According to the biography 'Young Prince Philip' by Philip Eade, Alice of Greece began acting in an abnormal manner in the late 1920's when Philip was about eight. Her mother Victoria was very anxious about her behaviour when she visited and Prince Andrew's sister in law, Marie Bonaparte, a psychoanalyst herself arranged for her to be examined by a fellow Freudian Dr Ernst Simmel at the Tegel clinic, just outside Berlin.
Dr Simmel diagnosed Alice as a paranoid schizophrenic after a few sessions. Alice seemingly believed that she was the only woman on earth, married to Christ and physically involved through him with other religious leaders such as Buddha. Sigmund Freud, Simmel's friend, was consulted and proposed that exposure of Alice's gonads through X Rays would help, 'in order to accelerate menopause'!
This was done, she felt better but soon relapsed. Andrew and Victoria consulted other members of the family and subsequently, in 1930, Alice was confined to a clinic at Lake Constance, run by a Dr Binswanger. It was Victoria who made the decision to ask that she be confined, though she was miserable about it. Alice remained there for several years and had little contact with her son thereafter.
Oh my I had not realized how serious Princess Alice's condition had become prior to her being institutionalized.
Quote from: TLLK on March 31, 2017, 04:05:23 AM
Oh my I had not realized how serious Princess Alice's condition had become prior to her being institutionalized.
I thought that she improved and was at Phil's wedding? She helped some Jews to escape from Germany presumably that was during the war? so how could she do that if she was in a hospital
Alice was committed to the Bellevue Sanitorium at Lake Constance at the beginning of May 1930. (She resisted that committal and had to be heavily drugged.) Philip barely saw her for years. Andrew drifted off and her daughters, who barely saw her either, married, one of them at a very young age.
In the Spring of 1937 Alice's progress was such that she was allowed to attend a family lunch. Philip saw her for the first time for five years. He was fifteen. Her mother and her daughters were delighted by Alice's condition though Cecile worried because Alice announced that she wanted to found an order of nuns and, unrealistically, also reconcile with their father. Dr Binswanger (head of the Lake Constance clinic) warned that she would 'always have to be watched over and guided'. She met her siblings again and though Cecile's death in that plane crash with practically her entire family soon afterwards was a terrible grief, (the funeral was the first time she and Andrew had met since he and Philip had visited her in 1932) she continued to recover.
Yes, Alice was independent and went to live in Greece and founded an order of nuns. She did help many people, including Jews, during the war years in Athens. However, she was known to be an eccentric woman who always followed her own path. (That helped when dealing with the Germans during the war.) However over five years in an institution did nothing to help build a close relationship with her only son who was a little boy when she left (and perhaps must have experienced his mother's manic episodes before her committal.) He and his younger cousins were taken out for the day when they came to get her.
well she obviously recovered a good deal, and did a lot of good with her life..
I think that Philip is a self sufficient type and if he had resentemetnt against his mother for leaving him as he would have seen it as a child, I think he was too sensible to carry that resentment into adulthood.
Anyway no idea really what Princess Alice's illness has to do with Diana's therapists.
There was no point in people recommending therapists to Diana till she was ready to tlak to one.. but given that her sister Sarah DID have SOMe similar helath problems, I would have thought that she wodl have tried to talk to Diana about her vomiting. however maybe she did try and was rebuffed.
James Colthurst, who was a doctor, said that he was aware that Di had bulimia when he became friendly wit her again in the 80s but that it was difficult to talk to her about it.. I suppose because he knew that she would not listen or act on his advice unless she ahd reached a point where she was ready to admit her illness.