Hereditary and Non-Hereditary Titles, Peerage and Knighthoods

[PrincessOfPeace]

Lords Spiritual consist of the Archbishops of Canterbury and York and twenty-four Bishops (by rotation but, always including the Bishops of London, Durham, and Winchester).

The Archbishop of Canterbury is the first peer of England next to the Royal Family, preceding not only all Dukes, but all the great officers of the Crown. "It belongs to him to crown the King."The Sovereign and his or her consort are speciales domestici parochiani Arch Cant (parishioners of the Lord Archbishop of Canterbury). The Archbishop of Canterbury is Primate of all England, is entitled to the prefix of "Your Grace," and is formally styled "By Divine Providence, Lord Archbishop of Canterbury."

The Archbishop of York is the third peer in the United Kingdom, and precedes all secular peers, except the Lord High Chancellor. He is entitled the prefix of "Your Grace," and is formally styled "By Divine Providence, Lord Archbishop of York."

Diocesan Bishops of England, with the exceptions noted, are also peers of the kingdom and of Parliament, and take precedence of the temporal barons.

The Bishops of London, Durham, and Winchester have precedence over all the other bishops who are ranked according to the seniority of their consecration. All Diocesan bishops are entitled to the prefix of Lord and are styled as "Right Reverend Father in God, by Divine Permission, Lord Bishop of _____."

The mitre, placed over the arms of all archbishops and bishops, is a round cap, pointed and cleft at the top, from which hang two pendants, fringed at the ends, it is surmounted by a fillet of gold, set with precious stones, The mitre of the Bishop of Durham (as nominally Count Palatine of Durham) is represented as issuing out of a ducal crest coronet.

A bishop impales his arms with those of his See, but he does not bear a crest, supporters, or motto. The wives and children of bishops do not receive any special precedence because of their station.

The Peerage - Lords Spiritual

[PrincessOfPeace]

The title, Duke, (from Latin Dux, a leader) is the highest in the British Peerage. As there are no British "princes" outside the blood-royal, so pre-eminent in dignity is the ducal title that each royal prince, shortly after attaining his majority (age 21) is usually, but not always, created a Duke; the titular style of Prince, apart from the Prince of Wales, is a title of courtesy. Thus, Prince Henry, son of King George V, was created Duke of Gloucester, Prince Andrew, son of Queen Elizabeth II, was created Duke of York.

Since the title Duke signified Sovereign status (William the Conqueror was Duke of Normandy) it was not adopted until 1337, when Edward III conferred the Dukedom of Cornwall on his eldest son, the Black Prince. This was followed by Henry Duke of Lancaster in 1351. The first subject to receive a dukedom who was not a member of the royal family, nor one nearly connected, was Sir William de la Pole, Marquess of Suffolk, who was created Duke of Suffolk in 1448.

A Duke is styled Most Noble (or less formally His Grace), and by the Sovereign in public instruments, Our right trusty and right entirely beloved cousin, with the addition of and counselor when a member of the Privy Council.

The Peerage - Dukes

[PrincessOfPeace]

The Term Marchio was applied in the Norman period to the Earl or Baron guarding the Welsh or Scottish Marches, or border territories. Similarly in Germany, the Count or Graf became known as the Markgraf, anglicized to Margrave. By the 12th century it had lost it's territorial significance. It was introduced to England by Richard II, brother-in-law of the Margrave of Brandenburg, the honour being conferred upon Robert de Vere, Earl of Oxford, who became Marquess of Dublin in 1385. The precedence between Dukes and Earls caused great offence to the Earls, and the patent was revoked in1386 in favor of the Dukedom of Ireland. The next recipient did not appreciate the degree. When John Beaufort, Marquess of Dorset, was attainted and the House of Commons appealed to Richard II for it's restoration, Beaufort begged the King not to restore this particular title "as the name of Marquess is a strange name in this realm."

The style of a marquess is Most Honourable. He is formally styled by the Sovereign, Our right trusty and entirely beloved cousin (and counselor when of the Privy Council).

The Peerage - Marquesses

[PrincessOfPeace]

The title of Viscount had its origin in the office of the deputy or the lieutenant (Vice-Comes) of a Count, which had become hereditary in the Empire by the beginning of the tenth century. It was also used as the Sheriff if a county. Henry VI, crowned King of England and France, created John Lord Beaumont in 1440 Viscount Beaumont in England and Viscount Beaumont in France (a title forfeited by the Duke of Alencon in 1415, and vacant on the death of the Duke of Bedford in 1435), in order to integrate the titles of the two countries. The peerage title received precedence above all Barons, but it did not become popular until the seventeenth century. Viscounts were always created by patent.

A Viscount's style is Right Honourable. He is addressed by the King or Queen as Our right trusty and well-beloved cousin (and counselor when of the Privy Council).

The Peerage - Viscounts

[PrincessOfPeace]

Barons were introduced into England by the Normans; most of whom held that rank in Normandy before the Conquest. Baron literally meant a man, being the King's tenant in chief, i.e. holding his land directly from the King. The burgesses and leading citizens of London were also known collectively as Barons, and this style was allowed them by clerks who wrote the writs of William II and Henry I. The barons of the Cinque Ports are a parallel to the barons of London. In the 13th century they were summoned to the Counsel or Parliament, but at first this did not imply that a successor would necessarily also be summoned to subsequent Parliaments. The more important would probably be summoned, but by the reign of Edward III it became usual for successors to receive writs as a matter of course. Thus the Baronage emerged into a hereditary dignity of the Peerage.

The first baron created BY PATENT was John Beauchamp de Holt, created Baron Kidderminster, by Richard III in 1387 with remainder to his heirs male, but baronies by writ also continued to be created long after this date.

A baron is styled Right Honourable and formally by the Sovereign Right trusty and well-beloved (and counselor when a member if the Privy Council).

The Peerage - Barons

[LouisFerdinand]

The peerage title Earl of Buckingham was created in 1377 for Thomas of Woodstock, the youngest son of King Edward III. The earldom passed to his son Humphrey.

[LouisFerdinand]

King Edward II granted his brother, Thomas of Brotherton, the title of Earl of Norfolk in 1312. It passed to Thomas' daughter Margaret and then to her grandson, Thomas Mowbray.

[TudorQueen]

King Edward II granted his brother, Thomas of Brotherton, the title of Earl of Norfolk in 1312. It passed to Thomas' daughter Margaret and then to her grandson, Thomas Mowbray.

Thomas was elevated to the rank of the Duke of Norfolk by Richard II in 1397 following his participation in murdering the king's uncle Thomas of Woodstock.

[LouisFerdinand]

The first Marquess of Assche was created for the House of Cottereau, a family of French origin. First of the line was Guillaume I de Cottereau, 1st Marquess of Assche.

[Curryong]

Article 1, section 9 of the US Constitution prohibits the acceptance of royal titles:

No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.

So barring Congress? acceptance a member of the royal family would not be eligible if they held any title as a result of their family relationship, even if they were a natural born citizen of at least 35 years of age.

That second paragraph you have quoted refers to US citizens accepting any foreign titles themselves WHILST holding an office in the US. Meghan didn?t hold any office under the US Constitution at the time of her marriage to Harry as she became a Duchess by honour and by custom upon her marriage to Harry. The Dukedom of Sussex is Harry?s title not hers. Meghan does not HOLD any title on her own.

And if she runs for political office in the US she could well run under the name Meghan Mountbatten Windsor if she wishes, or, as I think more likely, under the name Meghan Markle and still be the Duchess of Sussex in her private life. Harry?s position would be unchanged as he would hold no political office. Frankly, I don?t believe Meghan will run for office. I think she is quite happy being an activist and networking within the Democrat Party.

By the way, a nice little article from the LA Times about a certain wellknown US General from the Gulf War days being knighted, while still serving as a General, by the Queen. It?s an honorary knighthood, but is still an Office or Title under the US Constitution.

Gen. Schwarzkopf, Sir, Is Knighted by Queen - Los Angeles Times

[wannable]

He retired 1991 and was knighted 1991. No office, no commander of nothing but his house.

[Curryong]

He retired 1991 and was knighted 1991. No office, no commander of nothing but his house.

Schwarzkopf was knighted by the Queen in May 1991. He retired in August 1991, so he was still holding office as a US four star general when he was knighted. And the other 58 US citizens who received hon knighthoods and other honours from the Queen and other British monarchs as mentioned in the LA Times?

And, as I stated in my previous post, Meghan is a Duchess simply because her husband is a Duke. She does not hold any substantive peerage of her own under the British Crown, simply through Harry. He would not be required to renounce his Dukedom under any rules of the US Constitution if his wife ran for office, which imo is highly unlikely. 

List of US citizens who have received honorary knighthoods from British sovereigns.

American citizens with honorary British knighthoods and damehoods | The Gazette

The US Presidents knighted by The Queen and King George VI ? Royal Central

Eisenhower was knighted by King George VI in 1943. It was an honorary knighthood but he was a serving Four Star General in the US Army at the time and did not retire from the army until after the war.

[wannable]

No Sir no Dame, about to be relieved from duties or already relieved from duties. Like 3 months before retirement like Obama said, he visited PJ George.

Give me the dates of gov work vs knighthood of at least 1 individual that wasn't in the process of retirement or already retired that I consider worthy to discuss. Honestly I'm using Obama mic drop funny anecdote of Prince George, recalling my own CV/Resume, the last 3 months (usually in my case I wasn't happy with the moneys, was already in 'active' search, did the acceptable minimum to not trouble third parties, started a process of delivering) is delivering officially all my responsibilities to whomever I was ordered or the natural way of cleaning desk.

[Curryong]

Erm, Dwight D Eisenhower wasn?t in the process of retirement when he got an honorary knighthood during the war in 1943. The war didn?t end until mid 1945, and Eisenhower didn?t retire immediately the war ended.

In 1948, Eisenhower retired from active duty and became the president of Columbia University. From 1950 to 1952, he returned to active service as the Supreme Allied Commander, North Atlantic Treaty Organization. So, five years of consecutive US army service after he received his knighthood and two years in the Army after that.

Angelina Jolie certainly hadn?t retired from acting when she received her Damehood. Nor had Bill Gates retired from business when he received his knighthood. It?s ridiculous to infer that every US citizen is viewing retirement before they agree to be knighted.

f

No Sir no Dame, about to be relieved from duties or already relieved from duties. Like 3 months before retirement like Obama said, he visited PJ George.

Give me the dates of gov work vs knighthood of at least 1 individual that wasn't in the process of retirement or already retired that I consider worthy to discuss. Honestly I'm using Obama mic drop funny anecdote of Prince George, recalling my own CV/Resume, the last 3 months (usually in my case I wasn't happy with the moneys, was already in 'active' search, did the acceptable minimum to not trouble third parties, started a process of delivering) is delivering officially all my responsibilities to whomever I was ordered or the natural way of cleaning desk.

[Curryong]

CNN.com - Entertainment - Honorary knighthood for Spielberg - December 29, 2000

Spielberg was certainly not in retirement phase in 2000. He?s produced and directed TV series and films ever since, including the busy two years after he got his knighthood.

In 2001, Spielberg and Tom Hanks produced Band of Brothers, a miniseries based on Stephen Ambrose's book of the same name.[171] The ten-part HBO series follows Easy Company of the 101st Airborne Division's 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment. The series won a Golden Globe for Best Miniseries.[173] Also in that year, Spielberg returned to film with A.I. Artificial Intelligence, a loose adaptation of the 1969 short story "Supertoys Last All Summer Long" by Brian Aldiss. Filmmaker Stanley Kubrick had first asked Spielberg to direct the feature in 1979. Spielberg tried to make it in the style that Kubrick would have done,[174] though with mixed results according to some reviewers.[175] The plot revolves around an android called David (Haley Joel Osment) who wants to be a real child. Critics thought Spielberg directed with "sentimentality",[176] and Roger Ebert wrote, "Here is one of the most ambitious films of recent years [...] but it miscalculates in asking us to invest our emotions in a character, a machine."[177] The film won five Saturn Awards,[176] and grossed $236 million worldwide.[178]

Spielberg and Tom Cruise collaborated for the futuristic neo-noir Minority Report (2002), based on the short story by Philip K. Dick, about a group of investigators who try to prevent crimes before they are committed. The film received critical acclaim. Roger Ebert named Minority Report as the best film of 2002, and praised its vision of the future.[179] However, critic Todd McCarthy thought there was not enough action.[180] The film earned over $358 million worldwide

[Curryong]

Bill Gates got his knighthood in 2015. He retired from the chairmanship of his companies in 2020 to devote himself to philanthropic ventures.

Bill Gates picks up honorary knighthood from queen | Computerworld

On March 13, 2020, Microsoft announced Gates would be leaving his board positions at Berkshire Hathaway and Microsoft to dedicate his efforts in philanthropic endeavors such as climate change, global health and development, and education.

So, about five years before Gates?s retirement he was knighted. Want some more knighted Americans to discuss, because there are plenty?

[wannable]

Dwight is the exception of GOVERNMENT office official as discussed from the beginning. Only because he saved Europe from Hitler.

Everyone else was not in my radar of comment. Not even close.

[Curryong]

Dwight is the exception of GOVERNMENT office official as discussed from the beginning. Only because he saved Europe from Hitler.

Everyone else was not in my radar of comment. Not even close.

Well, Im sorry you don?t find other prominent and distinguished Americans who?ve received hon knighthoods as worthy of your notice, lol. However, your original statement when discussing Meghan (who is a Duchess only because she is married to a Duke) was that Americans were and are forbidden under the Constitution from accepting honours like knighthoods from foreign nations. When I pointed out examples that have shown those assertions were incorrect it became, ?well most of these people weren?t worthy, any way!?

Eisenhower didn?t save Europe from Hitler. He was an excellent Supreme Commander but he certainly didn?t do it on his own. All the allies played their part, not least the Russians in the East who fought their way to Berlin and the British who held Hitler off their islands for six years AND the Commonwealth and Empire who did more than their part, as well as the scientific enterprise of the British boffins and others who created all sorts of landing craft and camouflage that allowed the element of surprise to be maintained for months before D Day. 

[wannable]

It's not that, my earlier discussion has to do with political office rather than celebrity orTech! That's all, hence Dwight is truly the only exception, deservedly so.  It was a desperate hour (situation) for all Europe.  IF the USA hadn't entered, we'd be in Nazi land.

[Curryong]

It's not that, my earlier discussion has to do with political office rather than celebrity orTech! That's all, hence Dwight is truly the only exception, deservedly so.  It was a desperate hour (situation) for all Europe.  IF the USA hadn't entered, we'd be in Nazi land.

Oh, so the Russians had nothing to do with the defeat of Hitler and Nazism? I could point you to the history of the battle of Stalingrad (the greatest defeat the German army ever suffered) and the extraordinary tank battle of Kursk, as an example of why I disagree.

Battle of Kursk - Wikipedia

And I seem to remember a vital Battle for Berlin, and Adolf and some cohorts caught like rats in a bunker under the Chancellory as Russian troops got ever closer.

And the Yanks weren?t even in the war for the first two and a half years of WWII, at a time when Britain was fighting for her very survival. Nor were they around when Russia was invaded by the German army. Nor were they around in the Malayan campaign or at Singapore.

Yes the US helped enormously with its industrial muscle and its troops in the field and navy on the seas. It took a while however to get themselves organised. Their Pacific Fleet was seriously damaged by the Pearl Harbour attack in Dec 1941, for instance and they had a relatively small army prior to 1942. Thousands of men had to be trained before they could be sent to any Theatre of War.

They certainly weren?t the only players in town when it came to defeating Nazism. Not by a long shot.

[wannable]

Curry, If you go way back to my discussion I was only referring to the USA, Meghan Markle US Citizen, what will she do, her alleged dreams, desires, etc with ''politics''...

We can talk about WWII in the war thread, war history, one of my fav passtime activities.  I go to meetings et all.  :sarcastic:

[Macrobug67]

interesting chat but a little off topic.  Shall I move it?  In the mean time shall we get back on topic please.  Thanks. 

[LouisFerdinand]

Some peerage titles have been invented by combining other names.     
The Viscount Alanbrooke was created by Alan Brooke by combining his first and last names.