Royal Insight Forum

A thread to discuss the relationship between the Duke and Duchess of Sussex and the press, tabloids, and social media.

Quote from: changemhysoul on January 25, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
To be fair to them, people were already happily grabbing a slice of the pie before either Harry or Meghan opened their mouths, so they were simply following the trends. If everyone else can make money off them, they in turn can make money off of their own story. More books, docs, tv shows, articles, podcast and etc, has been made about them than anything they've said themselves.

The documentary also wasn't a six part-series about how hard it was to be a a duchess, as Meghan never complained about the actual work. What she did take issue was the constant racism, harassments, palace leaking and bullying of the media, the death threats made and how the media fueled more racist and violent threats.

She didn't have an issue with showing up somewhere, chatting for a few minutes and waving as most work can be summed up. She was able to easily throw herself into working on the cookbook, vouge, smart works and etc. What was hard, was knowing that when people were calling her a knife wielding American and her child was being compared to a chimp, her new 'family' were silent and the new 'household' she moved into were happy to brief the papers against her while she was struggling and pregnant.

That's a little more than just being a duchess, that was being degraded as a human being.


Harry & Meghan Netflix documentary director accuses Palace of trying to 'discredit' series (https://archive.ph/DND3r)

the above link is more about the Harry & Meghan Netflix doc.

I get what your trying to say yet since when does anyone in the royal family tell the media/tabloids or whomever what they can and can not print?   All the women it seems like are targets for the media, even HM was a target at times as was Anne, Sophie, Sarah, Diana and etc all of them. Maybe the entire media/tabloids have a hate for women as they always seem to be the targets. And yes some men also got hit by the media/tabloids.  You can not stop the *free press*, not even the royal family can do that so why would Harry and Meghan expect the royal family to say something or do something about all the hate that they dished out to Meghan?  Here I though Meghan was tough as steel and had backbone, guess I was very wrong as she appeared to be a weakling and could not take it by standing tall in her own right.  To be honest, I honestly believe they planned this while they were engaged and wanted out as soon as they realized they both thought alike on what the job entails......being nice to the citizens of Harry's country which shows he is NOT NICE to the people of his country at all, in fact he has shown his dislike/boredom/disgust for doing the job that gave him millions.  If Meghan had been smart and intelligent then she would of researched the ways and means how the British Royal Family/Firm is supported by the public and the gov (maybe the gov who knows), yet she jumped head first (I question that) and said they were ready to take on the job.......just look how long that lasted when she as  *Nobody was asking about ME* in country of very poor people with barely clean water let alone medical or food.  Typical Meghan always has to be first...front and center as we have seen so many times when she pushes Harry to the back and steps forward to introduce herself to the king of Monaco then pulls Harry forward and introduces him......wrong on all points of manners for a royal visiting another country.

Quote from: Nightowl on January 25, 2023, 07:26:56 PM
I get what your trying to say yet since when does anyone in the royal family tell the media/tabloids or whomever what they can and can not print?   All the women it seems like are targets for the media, even HM was a target at times as was Anne, Sophie, Sarah, Diana and etc all of them. Maybe the entire media/tabloids have a hate for women as they always seem to be the targets. And yes some men also got hit by the media/tabloids.  You can not stop the *free press*, not even the royal family can do that so why would Harry and Meghan expect the royal family to say something or do something about all the hate that they dished out to Meghan?  Here I though Meghan was tough as steel and had backbone, guess I was very wrong as she appeared to be a weakling and could not take it by standing tall in her own right.  To be honest, I honestly believe they planned this while they were engaged and wanted out as soon as they realized they both thought alike on what the job entails......being nice to the citizens of Harry's country which shows he is NOT NICE to the people of his country at all, in fact he has shown his dislike/boredom/disgust for doing the job that gave him millions.  If Meghan had been smart and intelligent then she would of researched the ways and means how the British Royal Family/Firm is supported by the public and the gov (maybe the gov who knows), yet she jumped head first (I question that) and said they were ready to take on the job.......just look how long that lasted when she as  *Nobody was asking about ME* in country of very poor people with barely clean water let alone medical or food.  Typical Meghan always has to be first...front and center as we have seen so many times when she pushes Harry to the back and steps forward to introduce herself to the king of Monaco then pulls Harry forward and introduces him......wrong on all points of manners for a royal visiting another country.

T

Both of them went insane on BM 'trivialities, the USA followed by Australia are now leading with the 'criticism', not sure how the couple will deal with that, different countries/different laws.

There are very very few people on this earth who could have withstood the onslaught from the Press that Meghan received. People always point to Camilla, Kate etc. No other royal female got three negative online articles A DAY about themselves on average through all their first pregnancy, the birth of their first child and after the birth, through the christening period, and until they left the country.

That?s what Meghan endured and I know that myself simply  because I took the trouble to monitor each day what the online tabloids were saying about her. It was all made up rubbish, a lot of it about the ?luxury? at FC or about the forthcoming birth, because for most of that period Meghan was on maternity leave and therefore not undertaking public duties, and afterwards she was recovering from the birth of her first baby. And that?s ignoring the nastiness and sniping in articles earlier, before she was even engaged and when she was newly married..

Think about it! Fictional article after article every day while you are pregnant and at times feeling very low. The main culprits were the Sun, the Fail and the Express. And many, many of these articles from the time Meghan came to live in the UK were pieces comparing her to Kate.

A few publications have pointed to such articles, such as ?-photos showing Kate holding her pregnant stomach, lovely said the Press, Meghan holding her pregnant stomach what is she doing that for ?all the time?? said the tabloids. Kate eating avacados, very good for you, Meghan eating avacados, that is a veg connected to murders in Mexico and underpaid Mexican peasants.

Kate wearing a certain type of shoe or nail polish, beautiful according to the tabloids, Meghan wearing a certain type of shoe or nail polish ?That?s against royal rules!? yell the Sun and Express. Petty? Yes. But not petty when it comes raining down on you day after day, week after week, month after month.

I used to look at those articles each day and wonder how long Meghan would be able to stand it before she inevitably broke. And she did break. She wanted to get away, and she did. That?s not weakness, that?s self preservation.

Could the Palace have done more to stop it? They wouldn?t have been able to stop it all but a quiet ear from Charles or a senior aide from the Queen at BP in editors? ears such as had been done about Diana in the early years may have assisted. And it may have helped a lot.

Why wasn?t it done? Partly because sometimes other senior royals feel ?Well, while she?s being attacked they are leaving us alone.? Partly because KP had given up defending Meghan by that last summer. They hadn?t done a good job in doing so from that first onslaught during her engagement and early married life, and by the time of Archie?s birth they did less, much less. And so she broke, and left.

All I can say is God help any girlfriend of George?s who he wants to marry but the tabloids decide they don?t like her. What if she is foreign or divorced or in a profession where the Press can easily attack. Or any boyfriend of Charlotte?s the Press dislike? Or worse, because he will be a spare and therefore vulnerable, any fianc?e of Louis?s? Because once the Press have tasted victory then it doesn?t get better for the next, or the next, or the next.

Quote from: changemhysoul on January 25, 2023, 07:35:38 PM
T

I send and it says I can't modify this, it says I ran out of time. But I wrote and re-wrote a long thing to Nightowl.

In the end, I'm going to sum it up like this.

I'm sorry but *free press* should never be used as a escape or way out for the press to be racist and hateful. It would have costed them (BRF) nothing to come out and say, "This racist, hateful abuse, spurred on by media coverage that is reported in bad faith is horrible and something we don't approve. Racism and attacks against, Meghan is not okay. We don't support abusing women. We don't support racism and as a family who is supposed to represent the Commonwealth, which includes people who are for the first time seeing themselves represented in such a huge way in this family, we reject this abuse. While we understand that there does need to press scrutiny for the Royal and that we are held to account, but this coverage has crossed a line from scrutiny to plain hate, microaggressions and harmful coverage that incited violence."

Now, their offices would have to stop leaking to the media to and making it worse but ignoring that,

If cost of that, if the cross of that was too much to bare for BRF then, Meghan doesn't need to shoulder the cost of being degraded for the BRF.

There is no dignity in accepting abuse.

There is no dignity in not speaking about abuse.

If everyone else and their sources can make money and have image making off Harry & Meghan, they can do the same.

At this point, the whole  'Meghan wanted to be a star' 'Meghan wanted to be number 1' 'Meghan....-insert whatever-' is painfully funny because at this point, I'm desperate for Meghan to lean into that. I'm desperate for her to actual do what people are accusing of her. Like, if she's gonna be yelled and talked about for all of this, she should at least make real money and do it.

Quote from: wannable on January 25, 2023, 07:47:47 PM
Both of them went insane on BM 'trivialities, the USA followed by Australia are now leading with the 'criticism', not sure how the couple will deal with that, different countries/different laws.

There?s very little criticism of the Sussexes in the mainstream Aussie Press. What there is and has been has come from inane breakfast TV hosts, who are barely watched anyway. And half of them are laughed at. A leading one was involved in a fracas with his mate in a public park earlier this month that was all over the news (including being filmed by onlookers?)  in a way he didn?t appreciate!

Quote from: Curryong on January 25, 2023, 08:19:58 PM
There are very very few people on this earth who could have withstood the onslaught from the Press that Meghan received. People always point to Camilla, Kate etc. No other royal female got three negative online articles A DAY about themselves on average through all their first pregnancy, the birth of their first child and after the birth, through the christening period, and until they left the country.

That?s what Meghan endured and I know that myself simply  because I took the trouble to monitor each day what the online tabloids were saying about her. It was all made up rubbish, a lot of it about the ?luxury? at FC or about the forthcoming birth, because for most of that period Meghan was on maternity leave and therefore not undertaking public duties, and afterwards she was recovering from the birth of her first baby. And that?s ignoring the nastiness and sniping in articles earlier, before she was even engaged and when she was newly married..

Think about it! Fictional article after article every day while you are pregnant and at times feeling very low. The main culprits were the Sun, the Fail and the Express. And many, many of these articles from the time Meghan came to live in the UK were pieces comparing her to Kate.

A few publications have pointed to such articles, such as ?-photos showing Kate holding her pregnant stomach, lovely said the Press, Meghan holding her pregnant stomach what is she doing that for ?all the time?? said the tabloids. Kate eating avacados, very good for you, Meghan eating avacados, that is a veg connected to murders in Mexico and underpaid Mexican peasants.

Kate wearing a certain type of shoe or nail polish, beautiful according to the tabloids, Meghan wearing a certain type of shoe or nail polish ?That?s against royal rules!? yell the Sun and Express. Petty? Yes. But not petty when it comes raining down on you day after day, week after week, month after month.

I used to look at those articles each day and wonder how long Meghan would be able to stand it before she inevitably broke. And she did break. She wanted to get away, and she did. That?s not weakness, that?s self preservation.

Could the Palace have done more to stop it? They wouldn?t have been able to stop it all but a quiet ear from Charles or a senior aide from the Queen at BP in editors? ears such as had been done about Diana in the early years may have assisted. And it may have helped a lot.

Why wasn?t it done? Partly because sometimes other senior royals feel ?Well, while she?s being attacked they are leaving us alone.? Partly because KP had given up defending Meghan by that last summer. They hadn?t done a good job in doing so from that first onslaught during her engagement and early married life, and by the time of Archie?s birth they did less, much less. And so she broke, and left.

All I can say is God help any girlfriend of George?s who he wants to marry but the tabloids decide they don?t like her. What if she is foreign or divorced or in a profession where the Press can easily attack. Or any boyfriend of Charlotte?s the Press dislike? Or worse, because he will be a spare and therefore vulnerable, any fianc?e of Louis?s? Because once the Press have tasted victory then it doesn?t get better for the next, or the next, or the next.

The pregnancy time was extremely painful, as Meghan stated in the document series and other places, she was not out and about during that time but she was everywhere. She gave them what they wanted, silence, not in the public but they refused to let up.

She did want they wanted, she was silent, unseen and unheard and it did not stop. Good on her for fighting back, I'd rather her alive and mentally well vs what could be.

(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/11/08/11/3A2BBC0200000578-3916188-In_a_lengthy_and_strongly_worded_statement_Harry_s_Communication-m-106_1478603577304.jpg)

Jason Knauf

A statement about Meghan in the first months of dating that was pushed by....Harry.

Nope, this is not the family coming out in support. That was Harry.

That was not a family statement in support and denouncing of the hate that was often being carried in the name of the BRF. That was not a statement of the family denouncing racism, racist attacks and etc on behalf of Meghan, in support of Meghan when the media was the worse.

Something more along the lines of the joint statement that they forged Harry's signature on because the media was making William look bad.

They don't get brownie points for a statement pushed by Harry.

Also, another reason why just being silence doesn't work. We heard Meghan's mom speak for the first time in the doc, after years.

Yet, before the doc. There was an author running around, claiming she did drugs, saying she was in jail and tarnishing her name when she had nothing wrong and said nothing.

Abuse thrives in silence, If I'm going to be abused, I'd rather speak out and oh well for anyone who was silent on the side-lines when it happened or allowed their staff to join in.

Yes, that statement was issued very very early in the couple?s relationship. Did that appeal to a fair minded Press help? Not on your Nelly!  It made them even more eager to dig up dirt even when there wasn?t any. So we got the period of ?Mum with dreadlocked hair?, ?straight outta Compton?, which occurred before the couple were engaged. However I was talking in my original post about the period when Meghan was a royal and cloistered away at FC very pregnant and later with a newborn baby. And still getting three negative online articles a day on average from British tabloids.

It did help, then the couple went 'further', as their pattern, never happy, once given, they want more/bigger chunk. Let's get upset for 'trivialities'.

The Daily Kate had her for 8 years. Anyway, different behaviour/character, each to its own, but it must be a headache with 'constant' moaning. Or she wanted 30 paps to follow her 24/7 like they did to Kate, just saying, during her time it existed, 2016 Meg's time no more.  Thanks to Social Media. It is what it is. Technology.

Quote
He often finds his wife ''sobbing uncontrollably'' on the floor and the stairs, mostly over what he fails to realize are trivial things.

Wall Street Journal

I'm sorry, can you explain to me how it helped? I genuinely don't see where or how it did.

No, the press were even more upset that they got called out by the 'spare' and Meghan didn't ask for that statement. Harry was ashamed of himself for not doing more and put out that statement to defend his girlfriend. That statement wasn't a gift from anyone in the family because he was going to release it, with or without permission from the top.

I see no statements for when the abuse was at it's height and at it's worse, IE: When Meghan was pregnant and out of the public eye yet getting abused daily. Or even with some of the blatant threats and vile comments made about her and Harry. I'd say, it must've been a headache to deal with constant abuse.

So, there is no pattern of them getting what they wanted because they've barely or not at gotten it.

Quote from: wannable on January 25, 2023, 08:28:12 PM
(https://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2016/11/08/11/3A2BBC0200000578-3916188-In_a_lengthy_and_strongly_worded_statement_Harry_s_Communication-m-106_1478603577304.jpg)

Jason Knauf

Now this is exactly how I expected that Prince Harry should have taken on the role of speaking for himself and his then girlfriend which was through the Kensington Palace Communications Office. Personally I'm glad that he did make a statement.  After all, William and Harry then later Catherine were in the unique and privileged position within the British Royal Family to actually have their own communications office and team working for them. This is was an excellent opportunity for the younger generation to get acquainted with learning how and when to release statements regarding their work and on occasion their personal lives which is a skill they were gong to need to use throughout their adult lives. They didn't have to rely upon their father or grandmother to release statements on their behalf.   Instead they could now utilize their team to do so for them. Now was it always met with great enthusiasm by the press, no but this was a game changer IMO.

Another example KP having their own office meant that the then Cambridges could issue their own statements about media intrusion like they did in 2015 regarding coverage of Prince George.

A letter from Kensington Palace | Prince of Wales (https://www.princeofwales.gov.uk/ourview/letter-kensington-palace)

Their other relatives (Anne, Edward, Sophie, the Gloucesters, the Kents) certainly did not have this privilege extended to them  and had to rely upon the Buckingham Palace office.  Even Charles didn't have this for himself or Diana for many years. Now the communications teams and other courtiers would definitely be there to advise  being aware that even statements made by the monarch ie QEII didn't always change the behavior of the press ie: Pregnant Diana being photographed by the press in a bikini or overeager attention paid to her by the press, but this was definitely an opportunity for the Princes and later their wives to make their own communication known through statements and their social media account Kensington Palace Instagram and Twitter.

^^Paperboy website is my friend (fact checker and debunker), where frontpage to backpage news is available. She wasn't abused, her CC's were reported in different sections; royals, entertainment and fashion.

That she wanted to deliver in secret, is another story.

Quote from: wannable on January 25, 2023, 08:53:13 PM
^^Paperboy website is my friend (fact checker and debunker), where frontpage to backpage news is available. She wasn't abused, her CC's were reported in different sections; royals, entertainment and fashion.

That she wanted to deliver in secret, is another story.

I?m talking about the online stuff that I was reading. That?s distributed everyday, separate to the general news I would have seen had I purchased a physical tabloid newspaper in Britain, granted, but still out there for the reader to peruse. It was all there every time I googled Meghan Markle, and I did, once a day for over three years from the time Meghan was acknowledged as Harry?s girlfriend until the couple left the UK for Canada for good.

However, it was at its height in attack mode at certain times in the regular British Press as well, just after the wedding when the Press didn?t get their way with being allowed into St George?s, after the Oceania tour, during Meghan?s first royal engagements and during her pregnancy, and afterwards, when it didn?t really let up and continues to this day.

Paperboy is 'updated' with the world, if not it would have been a dying company.  It has digital news too, digital: scrolling up to bottom.

Paperboy Online Newspapers

^Fastest 'methodology' for Fact Checker jobs for authors and big/medium sized media outlets. The second fastest checker is Google giant, fill in the blank search engine with key words, press enter, read 20plus pages.  :hehe:

IMHO there is a difference between press coverage and online social media and discussion forums. I am aware Kensington Palace Instagram and Twitter had to strictly review the posts being left on the account and there's been efforts by the both couples to encourage the larger social media sites to combat online abuse. However the best advice is to avoid reading those sites to protect your mental health.

Social Media (Tik Tok, Twitter and Instagram, in that order to date in most visits by Gen Z, only twitter has most comments both Gen Z and Millennial, has 3 different user types;

The one that posts the media news (attachment) adding their 350 character space of IMO (In my opinion). 
The second type are official bluecheck mark giving the news RR and their followers and non followers comment, and
The third are Trolls, no more bots, Elon Musk deleted them all and notified 2 weeks ago that his department of Bot Eliminator works daily to do their job.

ETA: I admire several ''The One that posts the media news''..., they are royal watchers and have a memory of an elephant. Their ''timeline' is filled with fast valuable news', a great fact checker too. These several users are super dedicated fans that post absolutely everything BRF related, including the DDOS news.

Yes but I am not talking about SM, which is a different thing altogether. Some of the Tumblr and Twitter sites were truly disgusting and appalling in their treatment of Meghan. However that is different to what I referred to in my original posts.

I am talking about reading online articles written by journalists employed by the British Press in those years. On occasion there would be articles about Meghan from 2016 onwards from newspapers like the Guardian, the Evening Standard, Telegraph etc and of course I would read those. They were usually serious pieces about Sussex engagements, republished from their print editions. What formed the vast majority of the sort of articles I?m speaking of were attack pieces on Meghan from the tabloids, from the Sun, the Fail, the Express, the Mirror etc.

These are legitimate, supposedly responsible newspapers (though I disagree that you could even call them anything else than gossip rags.) I am in Australia. I cannot go out and buy the Daily Fail every day (nor would I anyway, but that is beside the point) so when I was curious to see what was being printed about Meghan in British newspapers I googled it, from 2016 to 2021. Magazines are different. Australian magazines did and do feature Meghan.

In the early stages naturally there was very little in these online editions. As the romance went on and was seen to be serious, articles, several negative in tone began appearing in these online publications and from the time of Harry and Meghan?s engagement more and more with a negative tone, many comparing Meghan to Kate. It?s these publications online I?m referring to, which became a deluge of negativity and nastiness from the time of the wedding onwards, reaching new heights (if you can call them that) at various points which I?ve already pointed out.

But those opinion pieces are trivialities. WSJ has all the material over angry Harry (I agree with Wall Street Journal).

How can one lose their head over nail polish, very tight non pregnancy dress while pregnant, messy hair, dragging trousers.  That is all trivial pieces of women or men that are exposing themselves of 'how they wish to rather see her'.

Going bonkers over this is nuts. A stupid war.

Quote
He often finds his wife ''sobbing uncontrollably'' on the floor and the stairs, mostly over what he fails to realize are trivial things.

Wall Street Journal

For what it's worth, it's a good thing they are not senior working royals, and are far away from the BRF, the UK.

I DO hope both have finished taking out from their chests all the grievances, and ''move on'' as all major US media outlets have asked them to do with their Editor in Chief remarks/opinion piece.

It's trivial to the person writing the article.

Not to the person experiencing it.

Meghan didn't need to read the papers to know that there was an intense campaign of hate against her and that would break anyone down. Meghan wasn't just angry over those things listed but hate around those things that had been directed towards her, because of them.

They're minimizing what happened because it's not important to them, it is important to the person on the receiving end of the abuse.

It's a perfectly good reason to go to war, the people who he's going to war with are just shocked because they didn't think the couple would be able to hold their own, and they have.

No one is forcing anyone at the WSJ, to read it about it, talk about it or anything. I could say, if what Meghan and Harry faced is trivial, then the WSJ should find something better to cover than cover 'trivial' drama but they want in on the cash and clicks. They fail to realize that they are contributing by writing them. 

And good on them for making their money.

That same logic could be applied to the outlets writing about them, those outlets should be the change they want to see and stop writing about them. As far as Harry and Meghan go, I hope they continue to talk as much as sources or friends of the royals continue to talk about them and make money doing so.

The one thing we will agree on, I'm also happy they're no longer senior working royals and are far away from the UK and the BRF. I believe they're safer for it.

Some were trivial pieces, some not so trivial, such as demands about photographs with their baby on hospital steps, (the British public agreed on YouGov that wasn?t necessary btw in spite of the huge Press outrage.) Articles about luxury items at FC which were later proven untrue. This was at a time when the Press were constantly comparing in non too subtle terms, Meghan?s ?extravagance? against Kate?s supposed frugality. And it may appear ?petty? but the accumulation of years of it, including constant comparisons with your sister in law, for whom any criticism seemed to dissipate once the tabloid press decided Meghan was the primary target, wouldn?t seem so insignificant.

Untrue stories about the couple demanding neighbours on the Windsor Estate not speak to them, again untrue. Lying articles in the Sun about Meghan appearing on PornHub, an early one but she was a royal fianc?e by that stage. They had to remove that one but it wax up online for two days. Lying article by the Sun it had to apologise for about the Sussexes demanding that a car park for estate workers near FC be removed. Those articles were purely and simply to whip up bad feeling against the couple among the British public. That newspaper knew those stories and others weren?t true.

And I too agree with changemhysoul that after years of that sort of persecution anyone would be glad to get away.

Quote from: changemhysoul on January 25, 2023, 03:09:21 PM
To be fair to them, people were already happily grabbing a slice of the pie before either Harry or Meghan opened their mouths, so they were simply following the trends. If everyone else can make money off them, they in turn can make money off of their own story. More books, docs, tv shows, articles, podcast and etc, has been made about them than anything they've said themselves.

The documentary also wasn't a six part-series about how hard it was to be a a duchess, as Meghan never complained about the actual work. What she did take issue was the constant racism, harassments, palace leaking and bullying of the media, the death threats made and how the media fueled more racist and violent threats.

She didn't have an issue with showing up somewhere, chatting for a few minutes and waving as most work can be summed up. She was able to easily throw herself into working on the cookbook, vouge, smart works and etc. What was hard, was knowing that when people were calling her a knife wielding American and her child was being compared to a chimp, her new 'family' were silent and the new 'household' she moved into were happy to brief the papers against her while she was struggling and pregnant.

That's a little more than just being a duchess, that was being degraded as a human being.


Harry & Meghan Netflix documentary director accuses Palace of trying to 'discredit' series (https://archive.ph/DND3r)

the above link is more about the Harry & Meghan Netflix doc.

And is that any different than the way people degraded Camilla as a human being? Or the way the Queen was criticized as a human being for being a cold hearted woman who didn?t give a fig about her grandchildren? Or the way that Kate was degraded as a female whilst dating William?

And how has it been going since she called out the media? Has she been degraded any less by trolls on Twitter? Do the people that disliked her then like her now?

I suppose her ?new family? could have been silent because they despise her and secretly agree with every little hurtful thing that any random person said about her. Or maybe they knew the futility of fighting it.

And that household has their own thoughts about her conduct toward them and her lack of respect and kindness when dealing with them.

Maybe that?s all lies. But Harry?s own comments about how she addressed Kate show me her lack of kindness toward pregnant or postpartum females.

They want to ?correct? the narrative, which is entirely their prerogative to do so, but then again, that also means that everyone else has a right to say how they feel about it.

Mind you, these thoughts are coming from someone who halfway doesn?t believe in monarchies, thinks the majority of the royal family is filled with self-centered fools, and has no love for the brother and father he is attacking.

I cheered when Harry left the royal family because I thought, ?Thank goodness. He?ll use his platform to put the spotlight on the people who deserve it. Not the royals, but in the charities they support, and the people who do the real work behind the scenes.? I thought he wasn?t happy being a royal and how great that he was leaving it all behind.

My opinion changed when all he did was whine about his life. Not in a balanced rational way, but in a way that implies that his whole family view him as a bag of organs to give to his brother should he need them.

I don?t care for monarchies, but I respected the Queen. Mainly because of her public composure. Her ability to understand her privilege whilst privately dealing with a lot throughout her reign.

I think it?s probably more to do with what I value in people more than Harry and Meghan themselves. I?m old school. I value dignity, grace, and duty. I value rising above things and maintaining privacy. They do not embody those things, *in my opinion.*

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 25, 2023, 11:57:06 PM
And is that any different than the way people degraded Camilla as a human being? Or the way the Queen was criticized as a human being for being a cold hearted woman who didn?t give a fig about her grandchildren? Or the way that Kate was degraded as a female whilst dating William?

And how has it been going since she called out the media? Has she been degraded any less by trolls on Twitter? Do the people that disliked her then like her now?

I suppose her ?new family? could have been silent because they despise her and secretly agree with every little hurtful thing that any random person said about her. Or maybe they knew the futility of fighting it.

And that household has their own thoughts about her conduct toward them and her lack of respect and kindness when dealing with them.

Maybe that?s all lies. But Harry?s own comments about how she addressed Kate show me her lack of kindness toward pregnant or postpartum females.

They want to ?correct? the narrative, which is entirely their prerogative to do so, but then again, that also means that everyone else has a right to say how they feel about it.

Mind you, these thoughts are coming from someone who halfway doesn?t believe in monarchies, thinks the majority of the royal family is filled with self-centered fools, and has no love for the brother and father he is attacking.

I cheered when Harry left the royal family because I thought, ?Thank goodness. He?ll use his platform to put the spotlight on the people who deserve it. Not the royals, but in the charities they support, and the people who do the real work behind the scenes.? I thought he wasn?t happy being a royal and how great that he was leaving it all behind.

My opinion changed when all he did was whine about his life. Not in a balanced rational way, but in a way that implies that his whole family view him as a bag of organs to give to his brother should he need them.

I don?t care for monarchies, but I respected the Queen. Mainly because of her public composure. Her ability to understand her privilege whilst privately dealing with a lot throughout her reign.

I think it?s probably more to do with what I value in people more than Harry and Meghan themselves. I?m old school. I value dignity, grace, and duty. I value rising above things and maintaining privacy. They do not embody those things, *in my opinion.*

I do view the Queen differently, even with the talks about her being cold, hate wasn't whipped for it.

I find what happened to Camilla to be a little more in-line with the hate Meghan has gotten and my stance would be the same. They allowed her into the family, they should protect her and stand against abuse and harassment. I have more thoughts on this but overall, that's my base-line.

Actually, yes. There videos and comments on those platform mentioned how the Docu-Series, Oprah and Spare have changed their view on the couple now that they got their side of the story out. People who had only consumed negative media and were whipped into hate. A lot of them have said that they being able to see Harry and Meghan speak for themselves, once they were given difference perspective via the couple themselves, it changed their mind. Not everyone but a nice amount compared to the insane hate. So, I'm glad they got their own story out and in their words.

They could've tried, I'm saying that the palace had to sue on their behalf nor did other members of the family but they could've let people publicly know that they don't approve, it's not their brand and they don't stand by it. Since they didn't do it, I'm happy Meghan and Harry were able to speak on in their various mediums. The Netflix more than Oprah because Oprah was just a reaction while the series went through the entire timeline and highlighted things.

Yes, Harry's comments showed that Meghan was willing to laugh off something Kate had done and that she tried to treat Kate like family. It's more commonly called pregnancy brain and it's a very real thing. Meghan instead of calling out Kate on, Kate's own bad behavior and she kept pressing Meghan about a problem that had a solution when she knew Meghan was already under duress and stressed out, as well as wanting a party and choosing to switch name-tags around and ruin the seating plans for other people at the reception. I think Meghan was very gracious in how she said it. In fact, I find it said that Meghan thought Kate was enough of a friend for Meghan to treat Kate as close as she treated friends, that was her mistake.

I never said people can't comment on it, in fact, people were commenting before Harry and Meghan ever said anything, hence the various mediums they told their narrative. Now, it's on the table and people make choices about Harry and Meghan AND hear from them, not just filtered through sources and the media.

I also cheered when they left and they haven't been just talking about their story. Archewell, Harry personally and Meghan personally have been working and charity since they left. Now, people can not like it, maybe think they haven't done enough, don't believe in them and etc but I can list the various charitable works they've been doing since they left. That is a fact, they haven't been just sitting at home, recording videos and doing nothing at all. I do believe there is genuine criticism to how they could do better in that area (and by better I mean promoting their work and having a more direct line of communication. Once example would be not having social media. I understand that they don't want it but social media is needed in this era and Archewell should have social media accounts.)

I have no real feelings about the Queen. I can admire her role in history.

And it's true, it does come down to values in the end. I have my own. I don't see dignity, grace and duty in being silent. I don't see ignoring harassment, abuse and leaks as rising above it because I don't believe it that is possible. I don't see family values in staying about abuse another member of the family is receiving. I don't think there is privacy to be maintained when your private life is continuously leaked to papers. The privacy has been broken already, it was never there. I don't believe staying silent when a little kid who looks you like, is for the first time being represented see's you do nothing the lesson she takes from that is to keep quiet about her own abuse or whatever could be happening in her life. They don't embody those values but they do embody the ones I have.

"Don't rock the boat." Only allows those who have the power to treat others as they want, to dehumanize them. That is not something, I, personally value.

That is my dignity, grace and duty.

I have no problem with people taking issue, having their own thoughts or feeling the way they feel. They should speak about it, as they have the right.

In that sense, weather it be Netflix, Interviews, Oprah or a book, Harry and Meghan should use whatever medium they chose to express their story, as much as they'd like because no one is forced to listen to their story. I follow them because I want to hear it, because I believe them.

^Tell me in specifics just how was the royal family suppose to protect Meghan from the hate of the media/tabloid circus when they could not even protect Catherine or any other female that joined the royal family?  Specifics please?

And I respect a difference of opinion, which is the majority of what?s happening here. I personally believe there?s other methods of combating a narrative that don?t include releasing statements to correct every negative or untrue statement that the press has printed.

I cannot argue opinion because it?s simply a matter of perspective, but I will quibble about whether it has been effective or not. Their approval ratings have plummeted even in the US where people tend to be more friendly towards Diana?s sons.

Now, does that matter to them personally? Not sure. Maybe not? They have succeeded in getting their own opinions out there, but even now as they?re being attacked, the royal family has yet to release a statement. Harry said he wanted an apology. That hasn?t come, but maybe they?re playing the long game. As I mentioned in either this thread or another one (can?t remember now), I do believe there?s a path for reconciliation and certainly media rehabilitation.

The reason I bring up the ratings is because of the ?setting the record straight? narrative. Harry has mentioned that a few times as a reason behind his memoir and documentaries. I think they thought that when they told their side, people would be more understanding and sympathize with them, but I think the opposite has happened. Of course, there?s people that support them and there always will be, but I think something else has happened alongside that. I think a number of people that were on the fence about them have been turned off by some of his comments and the media blitz.

But there is something else that is interesting to note and could be deemed a success for Harry and Meghan. The approval ratings of some members of the royal family have also fallen, not as low as theirs but fallen all the same. This is a vulnerable time for the monarchy. The transition between the Queen and Charles was always going to be difficult, but more than anything, I?m now intrigued as to how Harry?s comments and actions will affect the stability of the institution.

Who knows? Maybe he?ll have the last laugh.

Quote from: Nightowl on January 26, 2023, 04:48:33 AM
^Tell me in specifics just how was the royal family suppose to protect Meghan from the hate of the media/tabloid circus when they could not even protect Catherine or any other female that joined the royal family?  Specifics please?

1. When they realized that they're staff was leaking against a stressed pregnant woman, put a stop to it. This went beyond just a few people going rouge, at some point, it had to be a sanctioned affair.

2. When stories leaked by your side result in the BBC picking up violent, anti-american tropes. When it leads to your sister in law being attacked with racist comments, understand that it's not something that is just going to be water under the bridge and clear the whole thing up with a firm statement. Just as they made sure to rush to release a statement to protect William, a statement that was signed and released without Harry's consent.

3. Don't suddenly pull out an investigation on Meghan's supposed behavior when you haven't done that for other members who have had people go on record and talk about the royals behavior. There have been countless stories off members of the BRF being rude or demanding. Sometimes it's just ignored and other times, while being painted as demanding is a negative for Meghan, it's made other members seem like they had a strong sense of leadership and etc.

Overall, I'm not saying the family can control the papers but they can control who they are friends with. They control how much the office leaks (and if they can't get a handle on that, there is a bigger issue.)

I was at a point where I'd even take a statement of support of defense. They did nothing and were silent. I don't know, denounce your friend who has made violent threats against a 'much loved' member when your whole idea is violence against racism. Stand against racism when you claim it has no place in this world. Don't pull a flyby stunt when your brother and his wife are already being attacked in the media.

You may not see those as feasible or even worthy of a response and I think differently. There lack of action and general apathy is a glaring indictment on their value's and behavior to much, just as speaking out is not viewed favorably when it comes to Harry and Meghan.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 26, 2023, 07:49:40 AM
And I respect a difference of opinion, which is the majority of what?s happening here. I personally believe there?s other methods of combating a narrative that don?t include releasing statements to correct every negative or untrue statement that the press has printed.

I cannot argue opinion because it?s simply a matter of perspective, but I will quibble about whether it has been effective or not. Their approval ratings have plummeted even in the US where people tend to be more friendly towards Diana?s sons.

Now, does that matter to them personally? Not sure. Maybe not? They have succeeded in getting their own opinions out there, but even now as they?re being attacked, the royal family has yet to release a statement. Harry said he wanted an apology. That hasn?t come, but maybe they?re playing the long game. As I mentioned in either this thread or another one (can?t remember now), I do believe there?s a path for reconciliation and certainly media rehabilitation.

The reason I bring up the ratings is because of the ?setting the record straight? narrative. Harry has mentioned that a few times as a reason behind his memoir and documentaries. I think they thought that when they told their side, people would be more understanding and sympathize with them, but I think the opposite has happened. Of course, there?s people that support them and there always will be, but I think something else has happened alongside that. I think a number of people that were on the fence about them have been turned off by some of his comments and the media blitz.

But there is something else that is interesting to note and could be deemed a success for Harry and Meghan. The approval ratings of some members of the royal family have also fallen, not as low as theirs but fallen all the same. This is a vulnerable time for the monarchy. The transition between the Queen and Charles was always going to be difficult, but more than anything, I?m now intrigued as to how Harry?s comments and actions will affect the stability of the institution.

Who knows? Maybe he?ll have the last laugh.

I don't agree that they've released statements for every negative or untrue statement. There is more left that they haven't responded too than they have. So far, it's only been when they felt a line had been cross personally to them. I don't see other ways, ways that make an impact. If you're willing to share, what other ways would you have done it?

I agree on the polls not mattering to them but that's because they don't matter much to me so they could care. Or maybe, it's because I'm seeing the people who are coming out to support them or do support them. Honestly, the only polls I pay serious attention too are around election time in America.

I'm not as optimistic that there is a way forward for reconciliation and even as being a fan, I think it's a pipe dream for Harry. If he wants it, I want it for him but I don't see it happening. I don't believe a media rehabilitation is needed in general. I'd say there is a general divide that hasn't changed. I'm completely agree that they think that people would be more understanding and feel sorry. I've seen that happen but overall, I think it was more important that as the years pass and history is set, there own account and words will be on the record. History is written by the victor as they say and this time, history will reflect the side of the people being written about, not just the people writing.

As far as the monarchy, it'll be fine. Sure, the ratings are low but if a referendum comes, I don't think people will be too invested to vote. What has been good to see on my end, is seeing more people engage with the media with a more critical eye and have a more critical eye towards how the royal family interacts and uses the media as a cover to say what they want. Overall though, I don't think much damage will be done, not for a few generations at least, if anything. They've managed to adapt and survive and as much as Harry's and Meghan's actions have shaken the table, it's also allowed the family to adapt in more ways. Hopefully, they'd take the risk and the chance to not themselves be beholden to the British Media as much as they have.

And overall, I agree that for us, the people watching, it all comes down to a difference of thought and what people value. I don't know what will happen in the future and I do think the one thing we can agree on is that outside of whatever lawsuits or something truly crosses the line, they should move on and let the work they've been doing be the main focus. They signed deals and had to deliver because the things they signed on for take time to be made, produced and release.

And unless it's a major breech of privacy or something that has to be responded too (Like when Harry's charity was dragged into that cash for honors thing) they should take whatever comes out of the British Media on the chin and move on. Hopefully, in a few years they can feel comfortable to interact with more of the media (aside from the four papers they won't be working with at all) and get social media to highlight their messages. Like I said, there are things I could criticize in their interactions with the media but at the same time. I understand why they have a complete dislike and dis-trust.

The Sussexes were given their own office and staff handpicked by themselves and all of them were scapegoated by the couple.

Also it should be noted that reporters would have been receiving information from people who had been around the couple when it came to a situation, but were not necessarily employed by any of the Palaces. The term "royal source" can literally be anyone: delivery staff, other patrons of businesses, the Sussexes' own friends and acquaintances.

QuoteThe Sussexes were given their own office and staff handpicked by themselves and all of them were scapegoated by the couple.

Yes staff who  IMHO did do their best to try keep stories suppressed and to promote the positive work and projects from the couple. However I believe the staff were also unaware at the time that the couple had  quietly hired Sunshine Sachs very early on without letting their KP staff know.

The DDOS as a couple were 18 months as senior working royals, 6 months with shared staff to the DDOC at Kensington Palace, 12 months with their own office and their own handpicked staff at Buckingham Palace.

The best metrics to measure a 'boss' is give them rope (to noose themselves or not), the couple accomplished their own downfall.  Sara took the hit with the birth of Archie, Melanie took the hit with Meghan accepting freebies, etc.

With shared team and/or independent team, both teams have said they were covering up for the couple or doing their best to stop the media 24/7. 

These two have a huge ego problem tied to a host of other problems. 

Too many red flags. 

Quote from: TLLK on January 26, 2023, 02:01:13 PM
Also it should be noted that reporters would have been receiving information from people who had been around the couple when it came to a situation, but were not necessarily employed by any of the Palaces. The term "royal source" can literally be anyone: delivery staff, other patrons of businesses, the Sussexes' own friends and acquaintances.

Yes staff who  IMHO did do their best to try keep stories suppressed and to promote the positive work and projects from the couple. However I believe the staff were also unaware at the time that the couple had  quietly hired Sunshine Sachs very early on without letting their KP staff know.

Fleet Street have always said that royal source = the lowest paid employees who need money in any industry, including the BRF. IOW they are referring to the lowest paid, domestic employees. Like Paul Burrell, the butler.

In any big firm or organization, you have your leaks, whether it?s a palace or a dressmaker or caterer, especially those that deal with certain types of clients. So maybe there were leaks about the fact that they disliked their behavior, from a variety of sources. How much truth? Can?t ever be certain, but I?m a firm believer in where there?s smoke, there?s fire.

However, I take the idea that every PR person at the palace had coordinated plans to ruin their reputation to make others look good, all with the sanctioning of the royals themselves. I can?t say it?s false with 100 percent certainty, but I am *extremely* skeptical of it.

The leaks have to be juicy = Wealthy person doesn't appreciate and recognize the full worth of their privilege, they are going to act out, behave badly.

Guaranteed

*****

The Queen and Charles did their best to accommodate Harry and Meghan wishes, not every whim, but the own household, the BP offices, wow!

After my athlete days, thank God I did university, I entered the world of work in a huge Oil and Gas Corporation with employees to the millions. I've seen the above situation. I've seen ''accommodate' situation, it ends up, the person is made redundant or is forced to resign before being made redundant, it is very rare when ''pressure'' is applied to 'contain', 'retain' someone who thinks they are special, probably triggered by i.e. 'results', Harry's case his previous Poll results.

Sarah Latham last job before entering the Sussex household was commanding USD 250K a year (more than the Queen's Comms)....in a huge organization that disruption will cause unhappiness with a lot of ''white collar'' Chief of Something, VP's of Something, Directors of Something.  Sarah ended as collateral damage to the duo.

IMO the lesson to be learned by the 1000 plus year old firm, is to keep on emulating big worldwide organizations with their best practices, rules and regulations.  The organizations have their line of succession from the president to the janitor. Follow it, don't disrupt it, or take the risk of losing reputation (a domino effect ^ like the above example, my boss the president eventually lost his job too, bad decision maker).

I don't understand why Meghan had acted out? There are 'benefits' I received being in the A Payroll White Collar, those that belonged in the A had our moral knowledge of code of conduct and confidential agreement, those things; salaries, benefits, fringe benefits, vehicle use, corporate credit card, expense report for certain items, club benefits, year end production bonus, etc aren't spoken about. 

Meghan stating she didn't sign an NDA, left a paper trail of her suicide feelings like if she belonged to the staffer team under Human Resources = B Payroll Blue Collar is baffling. And at the same time Dazzled by the freebies?! H couldn't help it but leave it in black and white, ink.

I think I blame some of the faux pas on Harry more than Meghan. Harry seems to have made her believe that anything she did was going to be okay because they were okay with him and he didn?t care. However, that was not the done thing and should have been explained by him. He was probably afraid that she wouldn?t feel perfectly at ease if she were not allowed to do anything she was inclined to.

I can?t speak to everything that was written because I didn?t read every article, but a lot of what was written as speculation turned out to be true. The crux of the issue isn?t Meghan, in my opinion, though. I think the crux of the issue is Harry?s jealousy over perceived privileges that William was afforded that Harry was not. That anger seems to have been seething for decades.

Quote from: changemhysoul on January 26, 2023, 01:27:46 PM
1. When they realized that they're staff was leaking against a stressed pregnant woman, put a stop to it. This went beyond just a few people going rouge, at some point, it had to be a sanctioned affair.

2. When stories leaked by your side result in the BBC picking up violent, anti-american tropes. When it leads to your sister in law being attacked with racist comments, understand that it's not something that is just going to be water under the bridge and clear the whole thing up with a firm statement. Just as they made sure to rush to release a statement to protect William, a statement that was signed and released without Harry's consent.

3. Don't suddenly pull out an investigation on Meghan's supposed behavior when you haven't done that for other members who have had people go on record and talk about the royals behavior. There have been countless stories off members of the BRF being rude or demanding. Sometimes it's just ignored and other times, while being painted as demanding is a negative for Meghan, it's made other members seem like they had a strong sense of leadership and etc.

Overall, I'm not saying the family can control the papers but they can control who they are friends with. They control how much the office leaks (and if they can't get a handle on that, there is a bigger issue.)

I was at a point where I'd even take a statement of support of defense. They did nothing and were silent. I don't know, denounce your friend who has made violent threats against a 'much loved' member when your whole idea is violence against racism. Stand against racism when you claim it has no place in this world. Don't pull a flyby stunt when your brother and his wife are already being attacked in the media.

You may not see those as feasible or even worthy of a response and I think differently. There lack of action and general apathy is a glaring indictment on their value's and behavior to much, just as speaking out is not viewed favorably when it comes to Harry and Meghan.

I don't agree that they've released statements for every negative or untrue statement. There is more left that they haven't responded too than they have. So far, it's only been when they felt a line had been cross personally to them. I don't see other ways, ways that make an impact. If you're willing to share, what other ways would you have done it?

I agree on the polls not mattering to them but that's because they don't matter much to me so they could care. Or maybe, it's because I'm seeing the people who are coming out to support them or do support them. Honestly, the only polls I pay serious attention too are around election time in America.

I'm not as optimistic that there is a way forward for reconciliation and even as being a fan, I think it's a pipe dream for Harry. If he wants it, I want it for him but I don't see it happening. I don't believe a media rehabilitation is needed in general. I'd say there is a general divide that hasn't changed. I'm completely agree that they think that people would be more understanding and feel sorry. I've seen that happen but overall, I think it was more important that as the years pass and history is set, there own account and words will be on the record. History is written by the victor as they say and this time, history will reflect the side of the people being written about, not just the people writing.

As far as the monarchy, it'll be fine. Sure, the ratings are low but if a referendum comes, I don't think people will be too invested to vote. What has been good to see on my end, is seeing more people engage with the media with a more critical eye and have a more critical eye towards how the royal family interacts and uses the media as a cover to say what they want. Overall though, I don't think much damage will be done, not for a few generations at least, if anything. They've managed to adapt and survive and as much as Harry's and Meghan's actions have shaken the table, it's also allowed the family to adapt in more ways. Hopefully, they'd take the risk and the chance to not themselves be beholden to the British Media as much as they have.

And overall, I agree that for us, the people watching, it all comes down to a difference of thought and what people value. I don't know what will happen in the future and I do think the one thing we can agree on is that outside of whatever lawsuits or something truly crosses the line, they should move on and let the work they've been doing be the main focus. They signed deals and had to deliver because the things they signed on for take time to be made, produced and release.

And unless it's a major breech of privacy or something that has to be responded too (Like when Harry's charity was dragged into that cash for honors thing) they should take whatever comes out of the British Media on the chin and move on. Hopefully, in a few years they can feel comfortable to interact with more of the media (aside from the four papers they won't be working with at all) and get social media to highlight their messages. Like I said, there are things I could criticize in their interactions with the media but at the same time. I understand why they have a complete dislike and dis-trust.

1)*Whose staff* was leaking info against a pregnant woman?  And what people went *rouge*?

2)What stories by *whom* were leaked to the BBC?  As for the story by Harry, well after all that is Harry who hates his brother so of course he will LIE.  Harry LIES as he has shown and will do anything to discredit his brother out of what.....jealousy of William being born first?  I take Harry's comments/stories with a grain of salt...Oh, I don't use *salt* as it is bad for the heart.....I like facts, not lies by Harry believed by his fans for that is worthless to me.

3)What story was stopped by a member of the royal family what was rude to whomever?  What People went on record about a member of the royal family being rude to someone?   I said way up thread I do not go back 1 year or 10 years or 100 years to take what happened then to make some issue the same today....Life happens and YES Meghan is a darn BULLY as she rude to staff and it was reported.  HM paid with her own money for that report on Meghan and Harry being rude to staff, and it so far will not be released to the public......wonder why?  I can guess yet that would not be a fact.....I honestly think Meghan let the royal life go to her head and lost control of decency and kindness to others thinking like Andrew that staff are dirt for him to walk all over.  Being kind is easy and does not hurt the heart or soul, being nasty takes over the heart and soul and evil sets in......

Just who in the royal family is friends with the media/tabloids that they would do as Charles or Camilla or William or Catherine or   member of the royal family wants, like stop the presses or kill that story or delete that report by so and so?

For one I do not believe for one second that the royal family is racist...that comment is on Harry and Meghan only trying to tear down the royal family all because they did not get their own way with HI/HO as they wanted.  Harry knew better and he can't say he didn't as he grew up in the family and knows how they operate and think.  Racism is about more then color of a person's skin as we have NO darn choice when we are being created how we will look at all, or even be healthy or where we are born. 

I want Harry and Meghan to go and live in Ca or wherever they want and do their own thing and keep the mouth shut about the royal family that they so hate yet they love their titles don't they?  Leave those across the pond alone as there is no need now that their bank account is full and no need for the bank of dad anymore.  Time for them to move on and live the life they want and the same for the BRF.  Yet no way on this earth will Harry or Meghan do that as they NEED the connection to the BRF while the BRF does NOT NEED them.

This is for changeemhymysoul to answer, if she wants to, got the time etc. I?m at a seaside cafe at the moment, having left the boat for a while.

Just have a look at the bullying inquiry and what The Times correspondent said in his column about receiving the bullying story from Jason Kauf, who was Private Secretary to the Cambridges and the Sussexes at the time of this supposed bullying  and who worked for the Cambridges for a long time afterwards.

How do you think that Valentine Low, journalist at the Times, got the emails from Jason that be disclosed in his Times article which he wrote so conveniently just before the Oprah interview? They didn?t just fall out of the sky. There were inter house communications between Knauf and other high ups in the Prince of Wales staff like Simon Case, telling them of Meghan?s supposed behaviour.

And Jason not only went behind his ex employers? back in these communications but he disclosed the lot to a journalist. The Palace hoped that this would stop the Oprah interview in its tracks. It didn?t but it became clear in this instance that one Royal Household doesn?t mind tattling to another about what its principals (employers) have been up to but have no scruples whatsoever in spilling it all (and Low got dozens of emails and other documentation from Knauf and other staff tipped off by Knauf) to journalists at newspapers. In this case he/they gave Low probably the scoop of his lifetime and reason to write a book.

So trusted senior people working in Royal Households never spill to journalists eh? Pull the other one!

From Jason K?s mother in 2018

I always told the kids they can be whatever they want to be, they just can't be the King of England," Knauf's mother Joanne told The Courier in 2018. "I think he got as close as you can get."

"He was really shocked when Diana died, he always said the media needed controlling," she added. "And I think he is in a position now to make a difference."

Yes, he made a difference all right. He used the media for his own ends while being paid as a senior civil servant within a royal household. .

Yes, but are the allegations true? I can?t speak for anyone else, but that?s really what matters to me personally. If he released that information as an attempt to stop the Oprah interview then it would seem he did it as an attempt to protect the monarchy?s reputation (his job) against two people who were about to say that they were the victims of a campaign when in the view of the household, they were actually the aggressors.

If Hollywoodland and the Firm have anything in common, it?s the importance of PR. The game is played by all, Meghan and Harry included. But my main concern is what is the actual truth. I would like the staff to be able to speak, so it can be settled, but that?ll likely never happen.

Solid.  Valentine Low 2nd week after Spare has been invited to do the rounds not only in the UK, but international TV (source: everything in mainstream media can be found in social media, interviews especially via Youtube).

The TV hosts are firing him Q&A, with subsequent Q's in every single Q&A. So the host is not silenced, he neither, hosts even ask him if he's not afraid of being sued, he said no.

He said he has copy of all the emails
He said he has copy of all the Whatsapp texts
He said he has invoice records of late night calls, Monday to Sunday, and psycho repeat calls on a Saturday and Sunday.
He said the KP office is not 'boxed', modern open space, so everyone can see and hear...
He said the  Australia, New Zealand, Tonga and Fiji tour; flights and behind the scenes drama, from a crying aid, to very rude behaviour inflight.

I believe that if the Duke and Duchess of Sussex had plans to take legal action against Valentine Low or The Times, they would have already done so considering it's been nearly two years since the article was published in The Times.

Interesting information about the KP Office as I'd imagined it to be a series of small ones, but open space offices have been around for a long time now and it's the setting that most of the staff would have been familiar with in previous jobs.

HistoryGirl2

Quote
If he released that information as an attempt to stop the Oprah interview then it would seem he did it as an attempt to protect the monarchy?s reputation (his job) against two people who were about to say that they were the victims of a campaign when in the view of the household, they were actually the aggressors.

Exactly right, according to Valentine Low, the above copies were given to him specifically before the Oprah interview to protect the Monarchy. PR wise releasing The Times article during or after would not protect the monarchy.

TLLK ^ Valentine Low is talking freely, as all the hosts that have invited him too, firing Qs freely.  He has said that and he included Jason Knauf, who is not a staff member any longer, matter of fact he is out of the UK, his husband is a diplomat. Jason is US Citizen. Note: their most senior aides 70% are Australian, Canadian, NZ, US Citizens. The most highly paid to date; Latham and Knauf both American. ETA: I have to add the US Citizen part, because apparently nationality is important factoring in this case, who Meghan will want to sue. American vs American, obviously it is not the most important factor but if the aide was British? would it fit better for the narrative?

The KP offices is in the new basement.  I recall news articles around 2016.

^Completely agree, @TLLK. It?s a curious thing. These are two people who despise media telling lies about them and have sued before. To be accused of being a bully is a serious thing, you would think this would be something they?d be willing to fight in court if it?s preposterously untrue. I?ve seen some interviews with Valentine Low and he seems to have all his ducks in a row, something to be expected from a reporter for the Times.

He also mentioned something interesting in one of his interviews. He said Harry seems to always have been worried about becoming second-fiddle when William?s children grew up and that since he was young, he worried about every person on his team and would ?test? them to see who was ?really on his side.? Maybe that?s completely off, but it seems to coincide with the impression I got when hearing Harry talk. He seems a very insecure person who constantly focused on his place in the line of succession. It would help explain some of his feelings toward palace staff as his view has always been, ?Are you on my side or William?s side??

Does anyone know if Harry mentioned the bullying claims in his book?

Not only haven't they sued Valentine Low, he said on Good Morning America, the reason they didn't is he has the 'receipts' -

He was basically challenging H&M to sue him.

Quote from: Nightowl on January 27, 2023, 02:08:53 AM
1)*Whose staff* was leaking info against a pregnant woman?  And what people went *rouge*?

2)What stories by *whom* were leaked to the BBC?  As for the story by Harry, well after all that is Harry who hates his brother so of course he will LIE.  Harry LIES as he has shown and will do anything to discredit his brother out of what.....jealousy of William being born first?  I take Harry's comments/stories with a grain of salt...Oh, I don't use *salt* as it is bad for the heart.....I like facts, not lies by Harry believed by his fans for that is worthless to me.

3)What story was stopped by a member of the royal family what was rude to whomever?  What People went on record about a member of the royal family being rude to someone?   I said way up thread I do not go back 1 year or 10 years or 100 years to take what happened then to make some issue the same today....Life happens and YES Meghan is a darn BULLY as she rude to staff and it was reported.  HM paid with her own money for that report on Meghan and Harry being rude to staff, and it so far will not be released to the public......wonder why?  I can guess yet that would not be a fact.....I honestly think Meghan let the royal life go to her head and lost control of decency and kindness to others thinking like Andrew that staff are dirt for him to walk all over.  Being kind is easy and does not hurt the heart or soul, being nasty takes over the heart and soul and evil sets in......

Just who in the royal family is friends with the media/tabloids that they would do as Charles or Camilla or William or Catherine or   member of the royal family wants, like stop the presses or kill that story or delete that report by so and so?

For one I do not believe for one second that the royal family is racist...that comment is on Harry and Meghan only trying to tear down the royal family all because they did not get their own way with HI/HO as they wanted.  Harry knew better and he can't say he didn't as he grew up in the family and knows how they operate and think.  Racism is about more then color of a person's skin as we have NO darn choice when we are being created how we will look at all, or even be healthy or where we are born. 

I want Harry and Meghan to go and live in Ca or wherever they want and do their own thing and keep the mouth shut about the royal family that they so hate yet they love their titles don't they?  Leave those across the pond alone as there is no need now that their bank account is full and no need for the bank of dad anymore.  Time for them to move on and live the life they want and the same for the BRF.  Yet no way on this earth will Harry or Meghan do that as they NEED the connection to the BRF while the BRF does NOT NEED them.

This article, details the relationship with the media and is backed up. It's been making the sounds and sums up everything I had to say and everything I've already shared.

Opinion | Prince Harry Is Right, and It?s Not Just a Matter of Royal Gossip - The New York Times (https://archive.is/NaIg4)

I also didn't say, anyone leaked a story to the BBC. I said the story about the brides-maid dresses, lead to an upheaval of hate, by them taking that story and portraying Meghan as a violent person from the BBC.

Charles hiring someone from the Daily Mail and Camilla not denouncing her friend Clarkson, is enough proof for me.

There are plenty of articles and etc, detailing interactions with the staff how other members being rude. A quick google search is enough for you find out. All mostly, in the same manner that they've happened to Meghan, only the ones about Meghan are taken as the gossip truth and the others are waved off in some way. In fact, it wasn't rude to staff but on Sophie and Edward's tour, it was St. Lucia. It was around of the time of the protest, Sophie and Edward weren't unware of what was going on and failed to prepare properly. The Prime Minister gave thoughtful words about reparations. Once he was finished and it was Edward's turn to speak, Edward laughed it off, was dismissive and said, "I'm not going to give you a response......I wasn't taking notes." And the face of the Prime Minister was complete disappointment. Not only did it show how under prepared he was, it was plain rude and yet the media mum about it. If Meghan had said that, they'd want her head on a spike and there would be article after article, interview after interview on how disrespectful she was. That was caught on video, yet Meghan is treated more horribly by the press for things that haven't been confirmed. (And I do mean horrible treatment, before the Oprah interview, as people use that to justify their dislike then the rabid hate had been there long before that.)

I want the same as you, but in different ways. When they moved Cali, I had hoped, "friends of the royals." "palace aids" "senior royal aid" "courtiers" and etc would shut up about the Sussex's. I thought, now that they left, private conversations and actions wouldn't appear in books of royal reporters but that didn't happen. So, I personally, don't care how often and how much Harry or Meghan's speak, they're playing the game that had long been played, the only difference is they have enough to own up to it, in their own words.

I don't think they NEED a connection to the BRF as much as some would hope but it helps. Just as it worked the other way around, if the BRF didn't want to be attached to the Sussex's, then they should've taken the titles when Harry offered...instead, that once again, was leaked to the media and no titles were taken.

We'll have to agree to disagree about who's trust worthy and who should be believed. Just as you don't believe Harry, I don't believe the BRF or their mouth pieces.


As to the other parts of the thread, I don't believe the Sussex's will sue Low, even if he's trying to bait them into it. They haven't sued Bower and he couldn't even get the fact that Meghan was Serena's friend correct and is pushing a narrative about her mother which is completely untrue as Doria wouldn't have been able to get work as a social worker if she had drug related charges or ever went to prison/jail. (Though, I think should in that case)

The author Zeynep makes blank accusations throwing shade to the entire BRF, like Harry, Meghan and Omid.

Could this be a coincidence that the author and Archewell are connected.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FncNejXXEAEWVk6?format=jpg&name=small)

Quote
The Archewell Foundation is continuing its ongoing support and partnership with Harvard?s Berkman Klein Center for Internet & Society, which today launched a new fellowship that will bring together renowned experts and new innovators from diverse perspectives to address the challenges and opportunities of social media

Quote from: wannable on January 27, 2023, 08:18:38 PM
The author Zeynep makes blank accusations throwing shade to the entire BRF, like Harry, Meghan and Omid.

Could this be a coincidence that the author and Archewell are connected.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FncNejXXEAEWVk6?format=jpg&name=small)

The author backs up her claims in the article, if you believe them or not, is a different matter.

I mean sure, it's not different from Clarkson describing the violence he'd like inflicted upon Meghan and being close friends with Camilla.

Now, could you prove a direct connection and relationship between the author and the Sussex's?

Definitely agree with the rudeness exhibited by other members of the family; something Low touches on is his book, as it?s not just about Harry and Meghan.

It?s all so petty, which is why the more all of this drags on, the worse for the royal family, in my opinion. Although, I think once we?re past the coronation, most people will have moved on. Nothing worse than an old story that just won?t go away.

It really would be so much better if Harry and Meghan stopped talking about the royals and the royals continued to just not address any of this and keep on with their normal schedules. Families drift apart and it is what it is.

Although, I do disagree that Harry and Meghan do not need the royal family. The interest they garner is because he is a prince and she married a prince. Neither of these two people would be afforded this much attention without that connection. Their entire empire will always be based on that. The same way no one would give Charles or William or Kate a second glance if they weren?t a king, a prince, and a princess.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 27, 2023, 08:22:43 PM
Definitely agree with the rudeness exhibited by other members of the family; something Low touches on is his book, as it?s not just about Harry and Meghan.

It?s all so petty, which is why the more all of this drags on, the worse for the royal family, in my opinion. Although, I think once we?re past the coronation, most people will have moved on. Nothing worse than an old story that just won?t go away.

It really would be so much better if Harry and Meghan stopped talking about the royals and the royals continued to just not address any of this and keep on with their normal schedules. Families drift apart and it is what it is.

Although, I do disagree that Harry and Meghan do not need the royal family. The interest they garner is because he is a prince and she married a prince. Neither of these two people would be afforded this much attention without that connection. Their entire empire will always be based on that. The same way no one would give Charles or William or Kate a second glance if they weren?t a king, a prince, and a princess.

And I think, the biggest issue I have with that, is..it's touch on but that's it. Smoothed over quickly, or it's presented as something admirable. (Not in Low's book per say, but other books said that anger or whatever displayed is a sign of leadership. When it's Meghan, it's bullying behavior and taken as gossip and this was before she ever spoke up about her experience.) It's the main reason why I understand they want nothing to do with the British Media.

I do think, that things will change after the Coronation.

I think Harry and Meghan should stop talking, as long they don't feel like their being being smeared or lied on. I also think the BRF do address it, just behind the scenes or are fine with people addressing it on their behalf and they should find a way to start to put a stop to that. At the very least, they could tell their close friends who speak to up on their behalf to just not.

Nope. I disagree because there are titled members, that people no little to know about it. I'd say, Harry gets more of his fame and etc from simply being Diana's son than the BRF as a whole. Most people, even though Sophie is married to a Prince, when she came to New York barely anyone spoke about, not even the RR. Kate is better known but after the wedding, that interested died down. I believe, BRF or not, Harry and Meghan are charming individuals and compelling enough that you want to know what's happening with them. I'm not saying it doesn't help but overall, they don't NEED them. Does it help? Yes, I just think if you were to say, rip the whole thing away, they'd land better on their feet than most of the members. Especially Meghan, who, not while as famous as she became once marrying Harry was famous enough in her own right. Traveling the world, making connections in powerful places, doing the work she wanted to do. She had an her own following before entering the BRF, which is why you see as much support. It's small thing but Meghan alone, had more followers than the KP before marrying in and they shot up in followers after that.

So, I'd say, they both need each other for different things but it's not as important as some people think. I expect, that once the Spare stuff dies down, things will stabilize for them meter off a bit, so it won't be like now but they'd still do well without the family.

Tbh, the issue is the media. They related everything back to the Sussex's because that gets more clicks, money in interest. Thinking back, if they had simply stopped covering the Sussex's 24/7 when they were in the family, there wouldn't have lead to feelings of resentment. They Sussex's could've teetered off in interest WAY before this but with media and people leaking to make them look bad which then lead to people taking sides (and a misstep was thinking that everyone would take the side of the BRF)...which only lead to more media coverage, they kinda of created what they hate now.

Meghan isn't giving interviews about her Suit days because no one cares. Harry and Meghan have nothing to offer but dishing on the BRF. Even big time liberal publications in America are saying it's all just repetitive by now.

It'll be interesting to see what else they have to offer going forward.

M&H need the press just as much as the BRF. The difference is the BRF accepts criticism, H&M seem to want nothing but praise.

But maybe they don?t hate it so much? I think everyone likes good press. I think the both of them have a healthy ego and love being in the news. It?s the negative parts they have a problem with. And I don?t think that?s necessarily unique. There?s always been a media magnet in the modern history of the family?until someone new came along and took the spotlight. That will eventually happen with them. When? Not sure. It won?t be Will and Kate or Charles/Camilla. They?re meant to be the boring ones. The never put a foot wrong ones.

Maybe the kids will do it. Diana never would have been known had it not been for the RF. That?s not to say she couldn?t charm the pants off of anyone or was uninteresting in her own right, but this sort of attention can only come from being associated with something that has the allure of royalty.

You also can?t undo it. Diana didn?t stop being famous when she lost her title and Meghan and Harry won?t stop being famous without theirs either. It would be silly to take them away. Not give out any new ones to the family? That I would agree with, but not because of anything they?ve done. More because I believe the slimmer a monarchy, the better.

I think American media loved the idea of them being in America because they?ve always been sort of enamored with the idea of royalty. They love the pomp and the tradition because it sells. Meghan was an actress before and good on her for making a career of it, but her worldwide fame came from her marriage to Harry, and Harry can thank the circumstances of his birth for any attention he receives. They?ll likely be famous in America forever.

In the UK, there will probably be a bit of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor vibe. The relatives that everyone knows, but carry a bit of scandal with them, too. I don?t think Meghan cares about that because she doesn?t have a connection with Britain, nor should she as her memories there weren?t happy ones. But I can?t help wondering about Harry. That is the country of his birth, and though he may hate the media there, I can?t help but think that maybe it might make him a bit sad to know he?s not popular there anymore, as he used to one of the most popular royals in the family.

Quote from: PrincessOfPeace on January 27, 2023, 09:01:54 PM
Meghan isn't giving interviews about her Suit days because no one cares. Harry and Meghan have nothing to offer but dishing on the BRF. Even big time liberal publications in America are saying it's all just repetitive by now.

It'll be interesting to see what else they have to offer going forward.

M&H need the press just as much as the BRF. The difference is the BRF accepts criticism, H&M seem to want nothing but praise.

They said they welcome criticism, they don't welcome hate.

There have been a lot of critical articles about them, that they haven't responded too or have issue with. The tabloids they refuse to interact with the hateful, racist ones. That aside, they haven't stone-walled any other outlets, even ones I think they should.

And it's true, she's not giving interviews about her Suits days, but also wasn't her during her time on Suits that she was feeling suicidal, when she needed help, it was her production company that paid for security. It wasn't her time during Suits in which she was dragged threw the mud and had attacks against her, no that happened during the BRF so yeah, that's what she would talk about. That doesn't change the fact that she had her own, in her own right before marrying into the family.

Also, they have offered much outside of the BRF, if people don't care or think it's not enough, that's a different story. They've done a few projects, non BRF related and there are as many think pieces from American publications, supporting them. Which is fine, I don't think all should support them but just because there are some that say it's repetitive, doesn't mean there aren't those who are doing the same, what matters is the personal weight we give to them.

I also never said H&M don't need the press, I said that they don't need the BRF has much as people think but I also accepted the fact that it helps. I've also repeatedly stated that they should find a balance with the media while understanding why they have a distrust. The British media at least. I also said they need to be active on social media to promote their projects and etc because they do, do non-BRF related things but what's written about, is the drama and they should take steps to have the focus on their projects.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 27, 2023, 09:08:20 PM
But maybe they don?t hate it so much? I think everyone likes good press. I think the both of them have a healthy ego and love being in the news. It?s the negative parts they have a problem with. And I don?t think that?s necessarily unique. There?s always been a media magnet in the modern history of the family?until someone new came along and took the spotlight. That will eventually happen with them. When? Not sure. It won?t be Will and Kate or Charles/Camilla. They?re meant to be the boring ones. The never put a foot wrong ones.

Maybe the kids will do it. Diana never would have been known had it not been for the RF. That?s not to say she couldn?t charm the pants off of anyone or was uninteresting in her own right, but this sort of attention can only come from being associated with something that has the allure of royalty.

You also can?t undo it. Diana didn?t stop being famous when she lost her title and Meghan and Harry won?t stop being famous without theirs either. It would be silly to take them away. Not give out any new ones to the family? That I would agree with, but not because of anything they?ve done. More because I believe the slimmer a monarchy, the better.

I think American media loved the idea of them being in America because they?ve always been sort of enamored with the idea of royalty. They love the pomp and the tradition because it sells. Meghan was an actress before and good on her for making a career of it, but her worldwide fame came from her marriage to Harry, and Harry can thank the circumstances of his birth for any attention he receives. They?ll likely be famous in America forever.

In the UK, there will probably be a bit of the Duke and Duchess of Windsor vibe. The relatives that everyone knows, but carry a bit of scandal with them, too. I don?t think Meghan cares about that because she doesn?t have a connection with Britain, nor should she as her memories there weren?t happy ones. But I can?t help wondering about Harry. That is the country of his birth, and though he may hate the media there, I can?t help but think that maybe it might make him a bit sad to know he?s not popular there anymore, as he used to one of the most popular royals in the family.

I do agree that Harry is most likely sad, I think in some interviews he's said as much. It's gotta sting but I'm sure he's happy to take that hit if it means his wife and kids are safe but it does have to sting to some level.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 27, 2023, 01:04:37 PM
Yes, but are the allegations true? I can?t speak for anyone else, but that?s really what matters to me personally. If he released that information as an attempt to stop the Oprah interview then it would seem he did it as an attempt to protect the monarchy?s reputation (his job) against two people who were about to say that they were the victims of a campaign when in the view of the household, they were actually the aggressors.

If Hollywoodland and the Firm have anything in common, it?s the importance of PR. The game is played by all, Meghan and Harry included. But my main concern is what is the actual truth. I would like the staff to be able to speak, so it can be settled, but that?ll likely never happen.

No, it is never likely to happen as that Inquiry?s results will be held tighter than a raft to a drowning man. The main point of the Inquiry however, as was emphasised at the time, was NOT the bullying allegations per se but to establish a network in which any future allegations, whether they were about a fellow staff member, a Senior member of the Household, or a principal (ie member of the RF) would be dealt with from then on in a prompt, fair and clear way. I?ve long said that staff members may well have come forward to that Inquiry about other members of the Household and other members of the RF, like Andrew, in addition to H and M.

One of the reasons that H+M haven?t sued Low is because of that Inquiry, imo. I do think the Sussexes aren?t going to sue mainly due to the fact that they haven?t been able to get their hands on a copy of that Inquiry, even though they asked to appear at it in order to rebut whatever accusations there were against them. A bit difficult to enter a law suit against Low when the results of what he was writing about have been tucked away never to see the light of day. And to this day they are unproven allegations against the Sussexes.

As for Knauf?s behaviour, it is not the conduct expected of a senior member of any Royal Household to be communicating in presumed secret with any journalist of any newspaper about the reported behaviour of any member(s) of the RF. And, what is more important, Knauf would not have attempted to do this (or later to have given further information in Meghan?s court case,) without the express permission beforehand of his employer. As two of his employers at the time the supposed bullying took place were the Sussexes, they are out of the picture.

However, Knauf?s employer at the time of the e mails being sent was the Duke of Cambridge.

Therefore the Duke of Cambridge gave permission to one of his most senior staff to send reports of allegations of bullying about his brother and sister in law to a journalist. That included emails to another senior member of the Royal Household, an internal communication that was never supposed to be seen by anyone else. What does that say about Knauf?s ethics, his loyalties and his discretion as a senior civil servant? Not much imo, and the less said about William?s behaviour in the matter the better.

Knauf has been given a senior Order by William, and kept on as an employee in various positions by the Cambridges since the bullying story broke. Low is a journalist and of course he?s going to crow about all the info he received which enabled him to write articles and a book. Has he been asked by anyone in his interviews in the US about the probity and ethics of Knauf, and of the then Duke of Cambridge in enabling him to have that insider information? Obviously not!

Well, Harry and Meghan would be poised to know the truth of those allegations regardless of whether they?ve read the inquiry or not. Low?s allegations are explicitly stated in his book. And if ethics are being brought to the equation, I?m not sure that the person who publishes private conversations in a book for the world to see would have a leg to stand on.

As I?ve said, I don?t know the truth of what happened because I wasn?t there. I would like to hear it from the staff members themselves, but that won?t be happening anytime soon. However, the job of PR staff that work for the palace is to defend the monarchy. Harry and Meghan were about to state claims that they?d been bullied and thrown under the bus by palace staff. However, the recollections of that staff seem to vary as to who exactly the bullies in this scenario were.

This does, however, open up another interesting idea that maybe palace staff was leaking unfavorable stories about them to the media, but not because, as Harry believes, they secretly wanted to make William look good but because they actually did have a problem with the conduct of Harry and Meghan.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 28, 2023, 02:55:29 AM
Well, Harry and Meghan would be poised to know the truth of those allegations regardless of whether they?ve read the inquiry or not. Low?s allegations are explicitly stated in his book. And if ethics are being brought to the equation, I?m not sure that the person who publishes private conversations in a book for the world to see would have a leg to stand on.

As I?ve said, I don?t know the truth of what happened because I wasn?t there. I would like to hear it from the staff members themselves, but that won?t be happening anytime soon. However, the job of PR staff that work for the palace is to defend the monarchy. Harry and Meghan were about to state claims that they?d been bullied and thrown under the bus by palace staff. However, the recollections of that staff seem to vary as to who exactly the bullies in this scenario were.

This does, however, open up another interesting idea that maybe palace staff was leaking unfavorable stories about them to the media, but not because, as Harry believes, they secretly wanted to make William look good but because they actually did have a problem with the conduct of Harry and Meghan.

The Palace didn?t know what was going to come out in the Oprah interview. Everything was kept quiet, certainly during the time that the emails were being exchanged. Rather than hide behind a journalist, exchanging secret emails  I believe that it would have been far more honourable for the Palace PR to have issued a bald statement itself stating that bullying had been alleged and it and ways to deal with it in the future would be organised appropriately to everyone?s satisfaction independently. After all, Low wasn?t called as a witness to the Inquiry and didn?t know what went on at that investigation.

We will have to disagree with our views on Knauf?s conduct. I would certainly hope that if in the future Jason is employed somewhere where discretion is paramount, he won?t be exchanging emails to journalists about the behavior of any of his bosses he disapproves of.

That interview was billed as a tell-all and I don?t think anyone was naive enough to think otherwise. But what I do appreciate most about Low is that he focuses his attention on the people doing actual work and tries to explain what their job is and how tricky it can be. I can?t speak to the veracity of every complaint, but if even 1/3 of it is true, I am glad someone was trying to stand up for the employees that were being mistreated, and the same goes for William.

Furthermore, I sincerely hope that inquiry has led to a proper channel to report instances of abuse by any royal or employee.

I'm sharing this review of Spare in this thread as it is one of the few that I've read that focuses heavily upon Prince Harry's hyper-fixation with initially the press and later includes social media and with suggestions as to how it affects his mental/emotional health. Prince Harry also seems to be under the impression that his father and possibly his late grandmother the Queen had the power to quash negative stories from appearing in publications ie: Harry's early use of marijuana.
IMO it is a worthwhile read.

Prince Angry | City Journal (https://www.city-journal.org/prince-angry)

QuoteSpare, Prince Harry?s account of life inside Britain?s Royal Family, reads like can?t-put it-down fiction: mostly, historical fiction and Karl Ove Knausgaard-style autofiction, with a war story and a romance novel thrown in. Spare passes the only real test of any book: Is it a page turner? Yes. You want to know what happens next, even though, most of the time, you already know. The problem for Harry is that his life isn?t fiction, and he has no immediate prospect of relinquishing the hatred that has gnawed through his life: his loathing of the British press.

The main theme is purportedly how Harry?s love for his new princess, Meghan Markle, whom he met in 2016 and married in 2018, helped him overcome his love for his ?disappeared? princess?his mother, Diana. ?The eternal power of love over grief,? as the book jacket states. Despite the publisher?s best efforts to make this a positive book, though, the real theme is the eternal power of hatred.   :no: In case you miss the point, Harry calls reporters and photographers ?a dreadful mob of dweebs and crones and cut-rate criminals and clinically diagnosable sadists.?

The teen pot use  story and its impact on Harry's view of the press.

Quoten Harry?s mind, the press, and only the press, killed Diana, and his rage bleeds into his relationship with the rest of his family. This impulse starts soon after Diana?s death. An editor??an infected pustule on the arse of humanity??at the News of the World tabloid informs the palace that it will publish a story about the then-teenaged Harry?s pot use and asks for a comment. Harry?s reaction is understandable for a teen. He thinks his father is all-powerful and can save him from embarrassment. ?Pa will do something. Stop her,? he tells an aide.

Instead, in Harry?s view, Charles betrays him by ?going full Neville Chamberlain? and deciding to ?appease the editor and also bolster the sagging reputation of Pa. No more the unfaithful husband, Pa would now . . . be presented to the world as the harried single dad coping with a drug-addled child. . . . I felt heartbroken at the idea that this had been partly the work of my own family, my own father and future stepmother? (Camilla Parker Bowles, now the Queen Consort). ?They?d abetted this nonsense. . . . To make their own lives a bit easier.?

Yet, it?s hard to see what Charles should have done differently. Strip the hyperbole away, and Charles chose the least-worst of several choices. Despite Harry?s belief, Charles could not have killed the story. Today, to be sure, a much-chastened British tabloid press, humbled after the mid-2000s phone-hacking scandal that led to the News of the World?s demise, would not go after the behavior of a minor child. But this story was more than two decades ago. Even the BBC and the New York Times thought the topic worthy.

Charles could have made no statement, making it seem that he was indifferent to his bereaved child?s drug abuse. He could have denied the story, daring the paper to hunt for photos. Instead, he did what still appears the best option: acknowledge that the story was true and assure the paper that the family was acting responsibly, by counseling Harry on the dangers of drug use.

Article covers the  negative stories that have impacted Harry's family over the years: Charles/Camilla-"tampon gate," Catherine-Middletons "cashing in," intrusive press stalking her, William/Harry/Catherine-phone hacking scandal. Press later bound to new practice standards.
This next portion is very eye opening and sad as Harry appears to be the one who encourages Meghan to begin reading press and social media that she'd initially ignored. He even wakes her up to tell her about another story.  :no: I'm stunned that he doesn't seem to comprehend that his actions are unintentionally hurting his wife.

QuoteNone of this was right, and none of this was, or is, good journalism. Moreover, some practices would be forbidden today by standards enacted after the phone-hacking scandal. Even without such new standards, members of the public today, mindful of the fact that they and their own children may be just a few digital photos or tweets away from a mini-scandal that could cost them their job or reputation, are more sympathetic to famous people whose private conversations or photos have been stolen or sold (though they still love juicy gossip, true or false, something that will never change).

Still, condemning the press doesn?t make it disappear. Thus, from childhood through middle adulthood, Harry?s family?s counsel is sensible. ?Don?t read it, darling boy,? came the sage advice from his father, appears nearly a dozen times in the text. Harry won?t, or can?t, take this advice. He reads the papers, and then the Internet, and eventually anonymous social-media comments, too.

He encourages unhealthy habits in his soon-to-be wife. Meghan herself greets her star turn in the tabloids by ignoring it. ?As a rule, Meg wasn?t looking at the internet,? Harry writes. ?She wanted to protect herself.? But this approach was ?not sustainable if we were going to wage a battle. . . . I needed to know . . . and that meant asking her every few hours about something . . . that had appeared online,? until ?she?d often begin to cry.? He even wakes her up to inform her of fresh bad ink.

Thanks for the post, @TLLK! The most interesting passage for me:

?He encourages unhealthy habits in his soon-to-be wife. Meghan herself greets her star turn in the tabloids by ignoring it. ?As a rule, Meg wasn?t looking at the internet,? Harry writes. ?She wanted to protect herself.? But this approach was ?not sustainable if we were going to wage a battle. . . . I needed to know . . . and that meant asking her every few hours about something . . . that had appeared online,? until ?she?d often begin to cry.? He even wakes her up to inform her of fresh bad ink.?

What??? Why would he do something like this? I have my own opinions about Meghan, but I?ve always thought that she was unfairly portrayed as the schemer who concocted this whole break from the monarchy. I always felt Harry was the main driver in that and these words really do show what an unhealthy mental state he is in.

Do you really beleive Meghan wasn't already looking for stories about herself on the Net?

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 28, 2023, 01:50:49 PM
Do you really beleive Meghan wasn't already looking for stories about herself on the Net?

I don't believe that  initially she was searching out everything especially those stories that were negative.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 28, 2023, 01:46:23 PM
Thanks for the post, @TLLK! The most interesting passage for me:

?He encourages unhealthy habits in his soon-to-be wife. Meghan herself greets her star turn in the tabloids by ignoring it. ?As a rule, Meg wasn?t looking at the internet,? Harry writes. ?She wanted to protect herself.? But this approach was ?not sustainable if we were going to wage a battle. . . . I needed to know . . . and that meant asking her every few hours about something . . . that had appeared online,? until ?she?d often begin to cry.? He even wakes her up to inform her of fresh bad ink.?

What??? Why would he do something like this? I have my own opinions about Meghan, but I?ve always thought that she was unfairly portrayed as the schemer who concocted this whole break from the monarchy. I always felt Harry was the main driver in that and these words really do show what an unhealthy mental state he is in.

@HistoryGirl2 -The quoted portion where Harry more or less admits to involving Meghan to "wage battle" is one of the saddest statements I've read about their relationship. I understand that Harry might believe that he's doing something proactive to protect Meghan, but it seems to me that he's just fueled an unhealthy obsession. Harry is a prince of the United Kingdom, not  Lichtenstein, Thailand, Jordan, Morocco or a Gulf State where the reigning/ruling families wield far more influence and actual power than in the majority of European monarchies where free speech is a more or less a constitutional right that the monarchy must be seen as upholding.

Harry had a communications team which IMO is where his grandmother/father are showing support by permitting him to have it and providing funding for it,  where he did make an impactful statement to object to the coverage of his then girlfriend Meghan.  IMHO it was the right step to take at the beginning of their relationship. However it would be unsustainable and weakened to object to every  criticial story especially those that were found to be true.   The sound advice to stop searching and reading those stories was sadly dismissed or ignored.

Note-The author is unaware that the "palace" that responds to the Tatler story about Catherine is actually Kensington Palace  (William/Catherine) and not Buckingham Palace (Elizabeth II) or Clarence House (Charles).

Quote from: TLLK on January 28, 2023, 01:52:39 PM
I don't believe that  initially she was searching out everything especially those stories that were negative.

Tolerably sure she was looking for stories, and if you do that, you are bound to find negative ones.  I think she's thin skinned and they upset her, but Im sure that once she became a royal girlfriend someone on H's staff would have warned her not to look for stuff about herself on the internet or papers.

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 28, 2023, 02:17:15 PM
Tolerably sure she was looking for stories, and if you do that, you are bound to find negative ones.  I think she's thin skinned and they upset her, but Im sure that once she became a royal girlfriend someone on H's staff would have warned her not to look for stuff about herself on the internet or papers.

Yes they would have, but if you're living with the person who is completely and admittedly ignoring that advice. Someone who is taking the step to wake you up to share yet more critical/negative stories it will be difficult to escape that atmosphere and it will impact your own mental/emotional health.

It seems so. How sad. I was watching an interview with Low where he quotes Samantha Cohen (used to work on the Queen?s team and then moved to the Sussex team) likens working for Harry and Meghan as working for a couple of teenagers. That description seems apt. This mentality is one of a high schooler who pays attention to every bit of gossip out there. It?s such detrimental thinking.

I definitely think they should receive an invitation. I can?t say it would be comfortable from their point of view.

Hopefully Harry and his father could reconcile. I feel doubtful about any talks between William and Harry going well, with William?s hot temper and Harry?s resentments coming into play. But I do think and feel that there is still a great depth of love between father and son that could be worked on. The Sussexes might come back after the Coronation in the summer for a private visit to Birkhall. We?ll see.

Omid Scobie has poured cold water on the idea of a reconciliation before the coronation. Harry has a list of demands he says need to be met before any talks can go forward, including an apology.

We'd only know about talks if it was leaked to the press and supposedly that's one of Harry's pet peeves.

I seriously doubt there will ever be a reconciliation between all members of the royal family as I have come to the conclusion from reading the Book that as for Harry......*it must be his way or no way at all*.  Everything must go according to what he wants when he wants it..and that is not going to happen.  I was thinking earlier about a mediator in helping who does not work for either party or know any royal family members, yet now I am not sure that would even work because of the demand that everything has to be according to what Harry wants and first is an apology to Meghan.......NOT going to happen as both sides need to apologizes to each other and no way will Harry or Meghan ever say they are sorry.  One thing I don't get is Harry knew the royal family does not control the media yet somehow he seems to think they do.  Right now in viewing how Harry is, he is so far out of reach for anyone to talk to him about any issue in life if he does not want to hear it......Druggies have a way of blocking out the world around them and living in their own tiny bubble with only their wants and needs come first as my friend who is a professional in the mental health profession says.  I see a train wreck coming slowly down the tracks and that is very sad as Harry had so much to offer and his own insecurities took over and look what is happening now.

I dont think there will be a real reconciliation because Harrys made it so plain that he has long standing grievances against his father and brother and in general against the RF.  He has shown such dislike for his royal role that its hard to see any real relationship ever coming about again.
Charles must know that he ca't trust him.. and if they do get togehter again conversation will be confined to very neutral subjects and probalby Meghan wont be all that welcome

The tabloids would have a field day if they returned. I think Charles wants the day to be focused on his coronation, but I don?t think that would be possible if they attended. I still believe an invitation should be sent, but one would hope they had the good grace to not attend, both for his father?s sake and to be consistent with their own words.

I doubt if Harry will refrain from coming out of any respectful feeling towards his father.  If he doesnt come its because he wont be too sure if he will be welcome in the UK with the population and I suspect that many of the RF, particularly William are not likely to be pleased to see him either.  I think that wiliam will take years to forgive his brother who has shown such spite against him.

Quote from: PrincessOfPeace on January 29, 2023, 02:30:59 AM
Omid Scobie has poured cold water on the idea of a reconciliation before the coronation. Harry has a list of demands he says need to be met before any talks can go forward, including an apology.

We'd only know about talks if it was leaked to the press and supposedly that's one of Harry's pet peeves.

The way Omid treats reconciliation demands towards the Coronation is delusions of grandeur, believing Harry is above it and them all.

The coronation is a 100% state funded, state event, not a family event. Whilst the King, William the organizer 1/3 has a say representing the British Royals, the COE and especially the state (PM and parliament) the other 2/3 have the last say. 

After saying that, Charles will never will place a individual over the Constitutional Monarchy.

Include in the list Gayle King who also spoke very recently of Harry's comment of a required public apology, she is recommending the King to do so.  :hehe:

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 29, 2023, 03:27:29 PM
I doubt if Harry will refrain from coming out of any respectful feeling towards his father.  If he doesnt come its because he wont be too sure if he will be welcome in the UK with the population and I suspect that many of the RF, particularly William are not likely to be pleased to see him either.  I think that wiliam will take years to forgive his brother who has shown such spite against him.

I agree with this and that?s partially what I meant about their own words. Their ?freedom flight? from the UK and their awful, critical media in their eyes would lead me to believe they wouldn?t wanna come back for a big royal event, especially given the things they said about the royals themselves. Not sure why they would wanna be there other than for attention.

And I think there is a possibility that William will feign reconciliation for the sake of image. He doesn?t have to talk to his brother while he?s there, nor do I believe he would. Barring some catastrophe, I don?t think William will ever truly be able to forgive him and have things be like they were. However, this doesn?t mean that they can?t be cordial in public.

Of course they will be polite in public, but If they have any private conversations at all, I suspect that William will be pretty icy or downright sharp with his brother after the shenanigans of the past few weeks. Probably other royals will give him a bit of a tongue lashing as well.  Harry will probably want to come so as to be seen, just like he claimed that he talked by Zoom to Philip and the queen back a year or 2 ago. He has to walk a fine line between criticising his family adn reminding viewers that he IS a royal prince and calls the King Pa.
I'd say that Harry might well come, the things that would stop him are fears of security risks, or fears that his family might be very chilly and unwelcoming to him, away from the cameras.

That?d be enough to keep me away. How embarrassing.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 29, 2023, 08:00:14 PM
That?d be enough to keep me away. How embarrassing.

what?  HIs family being cool to him?  I doubt if he finds that embarrassing  per se, I m sure that he's experienced it on his recent visits that William is angry and upset and just keeps up a front - it hasnt stopped H form lambasting Harry in his book.  I think that he wont come, but it wont be from any unselfish motive.  It will be because he worries about security in the UK, because he knows the public will know that he's just barely tolerated just now rihgt after the book.. and perhaps he worries about public displays of disapproval.

It looked pretty awkward at Commonwealth Day. But maybe they won?t be seated near Prince William and Kate this time. That would likely be a good compromise.

True but that was a first off.  I think something had happened just before CW Day, to spark off a row and William could barely hide his anger. but H has been home a few times in the past 2 years and I dont think that the RF as a whole were all that delighted to see him, so he must be used to it by now.
I think he may feel uneasy in case he is stuck somewhere he can barely be seen and worries tat it will look bad... but of course his fans will still like him and take it as evidence that he is oh so cruelly treated. and he has made a fuss about security in the UK, and for that reason too, he may be wary.

Yeah, in truth, there?s likely no perfect answer to this. It?s just awkward. But the press they?ll receive will of course depend on how they feel about the couple already. The big thing is that he said he wanted an apology from the family to him and especially his wife. Charles might be okay apologizing, but I can?t see William doing it. Maybe he?ll spin it as the main guy apologized so it?s fine.

Idk. His press in the U.K. will be difficult to revive, but he seems keen on ?battling? with them, so?

Charles: I'm sorry for?

Harry: Calling major media networks to gaslight (again) his Pa.

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 30, 2023, 11:15:00 AM
True but that was a first off.  I think something had happened just before CW Day, to spark off a row and William could barely hide his anger. but H has been home a few times in the past 2 years and I dont think that the RF as a whole were all that delighted to see him, so he must be used to it by now.
I think he may feel uneasy in case he is stuck somewhere he can barely be seen and worries tat it will look bad... but of course his fans will still like him and take it as evidence that he is oh so cruelly treated. and he has made a fuss about security in the UK, and for that reason too, he may be wary.

From what I recall, the Sussexes were not scheduled to join the procession with the Queen, Charles/Camilla and William/Catherine and were therefore not included in the printed programs. Apparently the Sussexes objected and the then Cambridges offered to leave the procession even though they were listed as being part of the procession in the program.

^ Interesting tidbit, @TLLK. I think something similar would happen here. The media impression is an important one. You can?t be completely unreasonable but also can?t be so accommodating as to make people think they?re okay with the things he?s said.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 30, 2023, 09:07:24 PM
Yeah, in truth, there?s likely no perfect answer to this. It?s just awkward. But the press they?ll receive will of course depend on how they feel about the couple already. The big thing is that he said he wanted an apology from the family to him and especially his wife. Charles might be okay apologizing, but I can?t see William doing it. Maybe he?ll spin it as the main guy apologized so it?s fine.

Idk. His press in the U.K. will be difficult to revive, but he seems keen on ?battling? with them, so?

I dont think the press in the UK will forgive him, he got on the wrong side of them a few years ago, and so did Meghan.. and every time he has gone out in public since then, with the book etc, he has shown up worse and given them more ammunition to use against him. but Harry is so out of control now.. He's capalble of swinging around and saying different things, which contradict what he said only a few days earlier.

Quote from: wannable on January 29, 2023, 03:53:36 PM
The way Omid treats reconciliation demands towards the Coronation is delusions of grandeur, believing Harry is above it and them all.

The coronation is a 100% state funded, state event, not a family event. Whilst the King, William the organizer 1/3 has a say representing the British Royals, the COE and especially the state (PM and parliament) the other 2/3 have the last say. 

After saying that, Charles will never will place a individual over the Constitutional Monarchy.

Include in the list Gayle King who also spoke very recently of Harry's comment of a required public apology, she is recommending the King to do so.  :hehe:

Oh silly me, of course King Charles will listen to the famous one who knows everything...Gayle King.... :clap: :random18: :soap:....
From what I have learned over the decades about the royal family is that first and foremost the Monarchy comes First before any single person.   That is how I view HM and her life for the monarchy and the country.  I believe Charles will be the same and William for sure is the same as he learned that very young from HM about his role in the monarchy and family.   I am sure he will always have some deep love for his brother yet as I am sure he is pretty darn well disgusted and very hurt and angry at him as he should be.

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 31, 2023, 08:35:04 AM
I dont think the press in the UK will forgive him, he got on the wrong side of them a few years ago, and so did Meghan.. and every time he has gone out in public since then, with the book etc, he has shown up worse and given them more ammunition to use against him. but Harry is so out of control now.. He's capalble of swinging around and saying different things, which contradict what he said only a few days earlier.

I totally agree with your comment in all aspects.  Harry says one thing and turns around and say the same thing half dozen different ways, what is the truth, how can anyone believe him?   This is all on Harry now and it seems like for his family in Ca and all his friends there that there is nobody actually helping him with what is going on  inside of him.  He is living in his own bubble right now and until if bursts there is no way to reach him.  This is really sad and will not be pretty when he hits bottom.

I think he's hopeless.  His book revealed so much about him that showed that the image of Harry was wildly ridiculously unlike hte real Harry.
He will still have his fans and he may still have a following in the US that will keep him in money, but overall, I cant see most people liking someone like him, if they take the trouble to look at him properly. And he does seem IMO to be still using drugs and drink to help him through the day, so one feels that he is still a very messed up creature who should be in good therapy

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 31, 2023, 10:13:10 AM
I think he's hopeless.  His book revealed so much about him that showed that the image of Harry was wildly ridiculously unlike hte real Harry.
He will still have his fans and he may still have a following in the US that will keep him in money, but overall, I cant see most people liking someone like him, if they take the trouble to look at him properly. And he does seem IMO to be still using drugs and drink to help him through the day, so one feels that he is still a very messed up creature who should be in good therapy

Have you read Harry?s book?

What I have read horrifies me.  I really didnt think he was such an unpleasant character.

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 31, 2023, 11:51:02 AM
What I have read horrifies me.  I really didnt think he was such an unpleasant character.

Perhaps you have read bits and pieces of the book presented through the eyes of those who never liked Harry in the first place.

No I've read the things that Harry has said about himself, and things he has said in promoting the book, where he continually lies and distorts, where he admits cheerfully to callousness amounting to cruelty and nastiness.  I had retained a little belief that while H was behaving very badly over the past few years, that he was essentially a good enough guy, but I've realised that quite simply he wasn't.  He was always unpleasant and unstable, and joining up with Meghan he has just shown his bad side more and more because he does not believe it is really wrong at all.

These two Harry quotes says it all, narcissist with dark traits.

''Whatever the cause, my memory is my memory, it does what it does, gathers and curates as it sees fit, and there's just as much truth in what I remember and how I remember it as there is in so-called objective facts.

Prince Harry

''I will admit to any wrong doing that the family ascribes to us and apologize for it IF we were wrong, but the family has to tell us what we did wrong.

Prince Harry

In both quotes, IF one (BRF) replies back, the couple's played pattern is to deflect, put others in defense mode, keep on lying to look good, victim blaming and playing the victim.

Here's the summary of my view on the couple and how it's altered over time.

For years I held a good opinion of Prince Harry. By all accounts he seemed to be a charming, friendly young man and later adult who was courageous in serving his nation as a soldier and also publicly  sharing his mental health struggles. I was very happy when he met Meghan and also  proud of him for using his opportunity to make a statement regarding the press coverage of their relationship. IMO it was certainly the right thing to do and I'm glad that his grandmother and father had supported him in providing a communication team. I was especially happy when they announced their engagement and I was charmed that they announced it in the KP garden. Thrilled to see the very warm reception that Meghan received from the British public and the YouGov poll taken then led me to believe that she would be very popular over time. Later I was glad  that she was welcomed to Sandringham at Christmas. Overall even the press coverage was positive especially for the wedding. I was rooting for her considering the last minute news that her father would not be present.   Not really surprised that they announced they were expecting three months later but a bit concerned that too much change was happening especially for Meghan with a new role, new country, new home etc.The tour of Australia and the South Pacific was fantastic. Meghan announcing her patronages and Archie's birth seem to cap off a great start to their first year of marriage.  Even the stumbles during the birth coverage were erased with Harry's very ecstatic remarks about his new son. Later nothing compared to their happy smiles seen in the photo with QEII, the DoE and Doria.

Then like you @Amabel2 there's been  a  change in my views.  I have been saddened, chagrined and disappointed by the attitude that they've displayed especially towards the British public and  more importantly the   public/recorded statements that both  Harry and Meghan have made in recent years. This change in my perception of the couple started in 2019 at the end of their tour of Southern Africa. IMO it had been a wonderfully planned and well received visit which was then undone by the interview with Tom Braby. Since then, my perception of the couple has rapidly gone downhill. It wasn't the tabloid stories. It wasn't the comments made by the Markles or so called "royal experts" including Mr. Scobie.  The only people who have soured my view on this couple were honestly Harry and Meghan. It is mainly  due to  the remarks that they have made and continue to make in their solo and joint interviews, television appearances,  her podcasts,  and public speaking events. It's been listening to the words that they say out loud that have unfortunately changed my once favorable viewpoint on Prince Harry since he reached his adulthood the mid- 2000's and on Meghan since 2016. Most annoying are the remarks that they seem to make a 180 degree turn on ie:The insinuations  that Archie's skin tone and that it would have affected his security and possible royal title. IMHO the American public's opinion of the couple has been steadily dropping since the spring/summer of 2022 with Prince Harry's interview at Invictus,  the release of the Archetypes podcasts, the RFK award reception remarks, the release of Netflix's Harry and Meghan and finally Spare.  (I don't count the appearances they made at the Jubilee and at the late Queen's funeral as neither were speaking publicly.)

That being said, I will continue to support their charitable endeavors: Sentebale, Invictus, Smart Works etc...and especially any local work done in California which like Meghan is my home state. I truly appreciate when they spotlight small charities and organizations.

Quote from: wannable on January 31, 2023, 02:06:59 PM
These two Harry quotes says it all, narcissist with dark traits.

''Whatever the cause, my memory is my memory, it does what it does, gathers and curates as it sees fit, and there's just as much truth in what I remember and how I remember it as there is in so-called objective facts.

Prince Harry

''I will admit to any wrong doing that the family ascribes to us and apologize for it IF we were wrong, but the family has to tell us what we did wrong.

Prince Harry

In both quotes, IF one (BRF) replies back, the couple's played pattern is to deflect, put others in defense mode, keep on lying to look good, victim blaming and playing the victim.

The bolded remarks from Prince Harry-Oh dear.    :blink:Yes this is really what bothers me lately.

Quote from: TLLK on January 31, 2023, 02:15:58 PM
Here's the summary of my view on the couple and how it's altered over time.


Then like you @Amabel2 there's been  a  change in my views.  I have been saddened, chagrined and disappointed by the attitude that they've displayed especially towards the British public and  more importantly the   public/recorded statements that both  Harry and Meghan have made in recent years.

That being said, I will continue to support their charitable endeavors: Sentebale, Invictus, Smart Works etc...and especially any local work done in California which like Meghan is my home state. I truly appreciate when they spotlight small charities and organizations.

Hmm, well I was cool on Harry for some time before the Oprah interview and the steady stream of lies and incoherence and the mean things that were said.  So when I say that I was shocked by the things that were said in Spare, and really really could hardly believe that he was quite that bad, well you can see that he has gone down to lower than a snakes belly, IMO. I had realised back in 2020 that he was capable of lying and being nasty, and that he was certainly none too bright.. but the Spare text and promotional interviews just showed how bad he was, how Public Harry was NOTHING like the real young man.
He just is all about money, and taking a nasty revenge on his father for having a bad marriage, and for finally saying NO to H, and even worse ,taking revenge on William for the crime of being born 2 years earlier.  ANd I'm sure if he writes more books, he will go after other royals or people he has worked with and savage them, because he just IS like that and also because an attacking book will sell better than an anodyne on. He wont care if the said royals have done nothing to do him and he gets on OK with them, (if there are any such) he will do it because he wants to make money and to justify himself.
I was dumbfounded by the lies about Camilla - how one minute he was attacking her as an evil woman and then saying that he didn't dislike her at all.. or that one minute the RF were being racist and then denying that he had said that....
And I dont like to say this but Its a bit like Diana.  I liked her, in fact I really crushed on her years ago but the more there were things that she herself said, that were lies or confusing, I had to cool down on her.  I think that Harry is like Diana in that he has some trouble sorting out the truth from lies.

Quote from: TLLK on January 31, 2023, 02:18:16 PM
The bolded remarks from Prince Harry-Oh dear.    :blink:Yes this is really what bothers me lately.

Yes, it?s definitely an issue with many others, but Harry, specifically, exhibits this childish idea that just because you believe something it must make it true. I don?t particularly care for phrases like, ?my truth.? It?s an opinion. A belief. A personal perception. But reality stands outside of all of those things.

Yes I dont know how anyone can believe  a wrod they say when they exhibit this attitude to truth. 

He has no intentions whatsoever of a sincere reconciliation, the intention, the wish is to end the monarchy via drama, tit for tat endless fight, seeking for a word or a squirmy facial expression to attack a senior royal member.  Silence is golden. One of the two or both at the same time are in a constant anger, fury with the entire institution or by criticizing every senior royal member at every opportunity they get (paid).

''I will admit to any wrong doing that the family ascribes to us and apologize for it IF we were wrong, but the family has to tell us what we did wrong.

Prince Harry

The word IF is already a nope, include the pattern of looking for 'fault' in the wording, if they can't find anything, they will make sure to go live on TV breakfast news to say 'He (or she) said sorry, it happened this way bla bla bla' effectively invading privacy. Who want's to have a chat with people like this, the day they get angry, they will mud your name publicly.

I think this petulance is also why you see a number of papers including op-eds and reviews about the book that are not favorable to him. It?s not just the Sun and the Daily Mails of the world that find his comments off-putting. Even the Guardian (a very left-wing and republican paper and one of my favorites) had a wonderful review by Charlotte Higgins in which she claims that he uses the same tabloid tropes in his book that he is criticizing. Almost like he?s trapped in this other reality. I tend to agree. I guess the lack of awareness makes it difficult to see the irony.

Quote from: Curryong on January 31, 2023, 11:10:43 AM
Have you read Harry?s book?

Oh yes and what it says about Harry who wrote about Harry makes Harry look really like a not so trustworthy or compassionate human being...making fun of a disabled woman, shame on you Harry

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on January 30, 2023, 09:07:24 PM
Yeah, in truth, there?s likely no perfect answer to this. It?s just awkward. But the press they?ll receive will of course depend on how they feel about the couple already. The big thing is that he said he wanted an apology from the family to him and especially his wife. Charles might be okay apologizing, but I can?t see William doing it. Maybe he?ll spin it as the main guy apologized so it?s fine.

Idk. His press in the U.K. will be difficult to revive, but he seems keen on ?battling? with them, so?

Tell me why in the heck should Charles ever apologize to either one of them, least they forget that it was Charles who walked Meghan half way down the aisle on their wedding day when her father couldn't?  They both has very short memories of all the good things that was given to them don't they?   If anyone apologizes it should be Harry and Meghan to the royal family period.

Quote from: Amabel2 on January 31, 2023, 12:02:57 PM
No I've read the things that Harry has said about himself, and things he has said in promoting the book, where he continually lies and distorts, where he admits cheerfully to callousness amounting to cruelty and nastiness.  I had retained a little belief that while H was behaving very badly over the past few years, that he was essentially a good enough guy, but I've realised that quite simply he wasn't.  He was always unpleasant and unstable, and joining up with Meghan he has just shown his bad side more and more because he does not believe it is really wrong at all.

Extremely and very well said, in fact a fabulous spot on comment.  Thank you

Quote from: Nightowl on January 31, 2023, 10:48:02 PM
Tell me why in the heck should Charles ever apologize to either one of them, least they forget that it was Charles who walked Meghan half way down the aisle on their wedding day when her father couldn't?  They both has very short memories of all the good things that was given to them don't they?   If anyone apologizes it should be Harry and Meghan to the royal family period.

Should and will are two different things. In my opinion, Charles has always had a soft spot for his children. In some ways, he?s indulged them throughout their lives, especially after their mother died. I think he?s been waiting for this coronation for a long, long time and he does not want any distractions to deter from his moment in the spotlight.

Image matters to the royal family and especially the monarch. I think he saw enough during the Queen?s reign and learned enough from the Diana years that constant bickering through media mouthpieces is not a cute look. Trading barbs with Harry will do him no good publicly. Trying to mend fences will show him to be the mature, responsible one; the way a monarch should look.

Now, will he sit down and own every comment Harry made about him and grovel at Meghan?s feet? No. But do I believe he would be willing to call his son and daughter-in-law to ask if there was some way for them to reconcile so that he could see his grandchildren and have some peace? Yes, I do.

hary is the one who will lose out, if he continues to be on cool terms with his father.  What happens if he runs out of money, or gets in trouble in the US?  Will Meghan and her friends have the influence to help?  It will be his father he'll end up calling. 
I dont see what Ch has to apologise for.  He wasn't a perfect father, and he made mistakes.  but IMO the big mistake he made was to be too soft on both boys, particullarly Harry.

I think you?re missing my point. It?s not about whether Charles has anything to apologize for or what he did or didn?t do right. It?s about how to get past this situation. While it would be easy for me to sit here and say, ?Stay steadfast, Charles. You haven?t done a thing wrong and Harry is just a spoiled brat who doesn?t deserve anything from you.? It?s a little bit different when you?re his father and your family (and family business)  is the one in the news everyday over it.

I know revenge and giving like for like is tempting and satisfying, but it is hardly ever the right call. It?s the reason I find Harry and Meghan?s behavior so distasteful. I?m sure there were moments where they had some legitimate gripe because, as you say, no one is perfect. But to turn around and trash everybody and everything is what a child does because they?re incapable of having a perspective that?s not based on their own self. If Charles falls into the same self indulgent trap, it will only harm him.

I think Charles wants to move past this. His job is now a lot more serious than it ever was. He?s the king. He doesn?t have the luxury of doing things out of spite because now his first thoughts always have to be, ?How will this affect the monarchy?? How regular people would deal with this does not come into play with them. That?s something that Harry and Meghan never seemed to understand or want to accept. They can also have a public side and a personal side. On the public side, they can be cordial, like sending invites to the coronation, sending gifts to the kids, wishing them well. Whilst on the private side, they can refuse to go past the politeness and not speak to them like the family they are but as visiting guests. It?s an icing out that isn?t quite as dramatic as most people would like but can be just as uncomfortable to the people subjected to it. I think that?s more likely to happen than a telling-off.

well I'm not quite sure what you mean because Im sure that Charles will invite them to the coronation unless there are very loud noises from the Government that they don't want them there.  Equally tho' Im sure that Charles is not going to go all out to please them, he will invite them.  If they come, they will sit where they are told, and probably he will make polite conversation with them, but not much more than that.  I suspect that others in the RF will be rather cool as well....
but the truth is that Harry adn Meg are SO utterly unreliable that there's nothing one can do to ensure that they behave, they are capable of signing NDAs and then turning round and appearing on Oprah or the like. and its equally true that in the end, Harry has more to lose if he gives up at least a formal polite relationship with his father.  so I supsect he will come, and will probably try to behave himself, because he may need Pa's help some day....

Very valid points, HistoryGirl2, but it seems to me that not responding to Harry and Meghan is not a spiteful act, but a wise and necessary one.  Harry and Meghan have proven they are not trustworthy.  They have no respect for others' privacy.  They will sell out the family and stab them in the back for money.  And based on the Sussexes' previous words and actions, I think that whatever Charles and the palace do, short of groveling at Harry and Meghan's feet and granting their every wish, will not be enough to satisfy them.  I think it would more prudent for the family to continue to ignore them and carry on doing their jobs.  They're playing the long game after all.

If the Sussexes are invited to the Coronation, I do sincerely hope that there will lots of conditions and controls to prevent them from turning a beautiful and solemn occasion into their own little circus.     

I agree that no matter what Charles does, he may be sure that Harry and Meg will find a way to twist it to make him seem bad and that whatever conditions he imposes on them, its quite likley that if it suits them, they will agree to the conditions and then renege. I dont usually feel that people are all bad, but Harry has shown himself to be very much on the bad side, and the image of Harry the Lad, who is kind nad good natured, has been shown, by H's own book to be completely false.

Quote from: Kristeh-H on February 01, 2023, 03:12:47 PM
Very valid points, HistoryGirl2, but it seems to me that not responding to Harry and Meghan is not a spiteful act, but a wise and necessary one.  Harry and Meghan have proven they are not trustworthy.  They have no respect for others' privacy.  They will sell out the family and stab them in the back for money.  And based on the Sussexes' previous words and actions, I think that whatever Charles and the palace do, short of groveling at Harry and Meghan's feet and granting their every wish, will not be enough to satisfy them.  I think it would more prudent for the family to continue to ignore them and carry on doing their jobs.  They're playing the long game after all.

If the Sussexes are invited to the Coronation, I do sincerely hope that there will lots of conditions and controls to prevent them from turning a beautiful and solemn occasion into their own little circus.     

Completely agree. They see anything that isn?t lauding them as an outright attack. They are spiteful and need to make a lot of money to fund their expensive lifestyle. But the majority of the public is already sick and tired of their complaints. So the best thing to do is to continue to behave as you had before, cordially. To show that every complaint they have is invalid. That?s what an invitation to the coronation does publicly. It shows your benevolence in the face of a vicious attack. No better publicity than that. I?d like to believe I?m not wrong in thinking that the majority of people still value graceful behavior over disgraceful behavior.

As far as controls, I?m just not sure it?s possible. Any invite will come with dangers that they?ll do their best to upstage the event or complaints if he?s not given the same privileges that William gets. They will come home and complain about the media if they?re not fawning over them. But hey, maybe they won?t even go if they don?t get everything they want beforehand. I think it?s a chance the RF have to take though.

Now, there?s the event and then there?s family moments. They don?t have to be invited to private family gatherings if it makes others feel uncomfortable, as it likely would if anything you say could wind up on Anderson 360. There?s a lot of leeway the RF are operating under here. They have the upper hand. They just have to be careful not to lose it.

Perhaps the palace could have attorneys draw up a document with a list of the conditions that the Sussexes would have to sign and agree to, and if they violate any of those conditions, legal action could be taken against them.  I actually doubt Charles would do that, but I think it would be appropriate with those two. 

I dont think it woudl stop them, any more than they stopped saying confusing and contradictory things during the publicity for Spare.  Unless Charles takes them to court, which he would be reluctant to do, i dont think they would stick by anything that they signed.

Yeah, I agree with Amabel. I don?t think they?d sign it or abide by it and all they?d do is go to the media and complain that Charles is forcing them to sign a legal document. I?d just invite them to the public event and no other gathering or family event. I?d also advise the family to be careful what they say around them if they?re not okay with it being publicized (not that they don?t know that already). How many secret details could they reveal about an already televised event?

Yes, I agree with you both, that I'm not sure the Sussexes would abide by any agreements and I doubt Charles would take action.  Which is why I don't think the Sussexes should be invited.  They are simply not trustworthy.

Edited to add, that while I have appreciated the Royal Family acting with grace in the face of the Sussexes hostility, I do think there is a point where they need to cut Harry and Meghan off.  They shouldn't respond in kind, and get into a tit-for-tat public fight, but just don't have anything to do with them.  I would hope that most people would understand that sometimes, for your own sake, people need to cut contact with toxic family members.

It?s sad but true. That?s the crux of the issue with William, I think. It was one thing when they fought and disagreed. Whatever. But I think when Harry and Meghan went to the media with their private fights and words, a line was crossed that cannot be uncrossed. Now, you can say they don?t care and maybe they don?t. I don?t think Meghan cares on a personal level like Harry might, but I think not inviting them to the places where private moments are held will sting eventually. Mainly because their connection to the family will dissipate and that?s where their allure comes from. Getting invited to a coronation isn?t just for family, so I don?t count that as being invited to a ?family event.?

But I think everyone needs to move on. The RF don?t need them. William and Charles have their partners and family, so they?ll carry on. And Meghan and Harry will need to find another schtick that isn?t talking about the royals. Goodness knows they have many options and tools to do so, so I hope they choose to do this soon for their own sake.

Harry chose his path, so anything that comes with that choice is something he has to accept. It?ll be a cold day in Hell before William apologizes, in my opinion, because of the seriousness of the transgression.

It?s funny. William has a much more mature attitude toward media than Harry does, in my opinion. He has accepted that they have public roles that come with a lot of negative media attention, and he?s also not interested in them invading his family?s privacy, like Harry claims he?s doing. William and Kate have set clear lines of what is acceptable to document in regards to their children. They preempt things by taking pictures themselves and releasing them. Tentatively introducing them to the public during some events and not others.

William plays nice with the media because he knows it?s a part of his position, even though he distrusts them. This distrust is valid. They?re not your friends. And no public figure should ever confuse a few months or years of good press with them ?liking you.? It?s a business and should be treated as such.

He would never trust the media enough with his private thoughts, comments, and stories because he doesn?t trust that they?d understand or care about him enough to treat these stories with respect. And he shouldn?t. No one should. That Harry did this with William?s thoughts and stories is a complete infringement from William?s perspective, in my opinion.

And Harry seems to shows a great deal of trust in the media that he claims to despise. It?s perplexing really.

William, Catherine and Harry were all targeted  by the phone hacking scandal and understandably have their concerns and reservations about the media. The then Cambridges also dealt with the Closer lawsuit over the photos taken in France and issued a statement about the tactics used by the press to obtain photos of George in 2015. However over time, they do appear to have come to a compromise regarding press coverage of their public and personal lives.

With Harry and Meghan, we know that this is still an ever evolving situation especially with their ongoing legal actions. I'm not sure where it will eventually end up.

As for the Sussexes' presence at the Coronation and their possible interaction with members of their family, I do believe it will be the family likely being even more guarded especially in the wake of Harry and Meghan along with the release of Spare.  Afterall Meghan has reminded us that she never signed anything when it came to her tenure as a senior royal. I believe that she and Harry have no qualms sharing the details of personal conversations. So I expect to that there  will be a great deal of filler chatter about the weather.

The Palace has proven that, that aren't that trust worthy either. Be it the Royals or their staff.

Just as Harry's statement and request that he had written down, as he was asked by his father winding up in the hands of Dan Wotton and The Sun. The Dan Wotton, who has a connection to Jason who is very close to William, personally close.

Or them choosing to release a statement about William not bullying, which hadn't actually been signed off by Harry, under Harry's name. That's not only a major breach of trust and an out-right lie to the public. The fact that William gets a statement due because of rumors and yet, Meghan got no protection when the rumors about her making Kate cry lead to...racist and anti-american attacks on her person from the BBC and comments and etc on their KP insta saying she looked like a slave next to Kate. The photo that KP posted of Meghan after the story had horrible, racist comments that, sure Maybe, Meghan didn't see but I, did have to see and they did nothing to close the comments or even filter it. 

Or say, Valentine Low, if you believe him, stated that after the Oprah interview, on a podcast that he knew about Meghan going to HR about her mental health because someone in the office told him. So, they couldn't get her help but they could tell that information to a reporter.

Everyone talks about trust from the Palace perspective but it's also clear that the Palace and family can't be trusted not to let things get out either, be it actual family members or members of staff.
The Sussex's haven't been a given a reason to trust the Palace and family. It's clear they haven't trusted the family since they left and even before that.

I don't trust anything they tell the family not end up in some Daily Mail, Telegraph or etc article.

Does the family have every right not to trust them? Yeah but let's not pretend like the Palace/Family are the perfect secret holders.

At least Harry has it in him to say it with his chest.

I don't trust the Palace to not try and do everything they can to put The Sussex's in their place and humiliate them if they come, which would be pointless because the Sussex's have proved they can come and go do nothing (Jubilee, The Queen's Funeral) or come and go no one would know about it. It doesn't matter if they're at the Coronation or not, the media is going to make everything about the Sussex's. Meghan, was barely seen during the Queen's funeral but all of the headlines were primed for attacking her, it doesn't matter if she doesn't speak that attacks happen (which is why I'm 100% fine with her speaking, it's silent doesn't end abuse)

Or during the Jubilee, when The Sussex's showed up, supported the Queen and then quietly left, the media complained that they and tried to track their every movement. A "palace source" rushed to the papers to tell them that The Sussex's didn't attend some event with other minor royals and how people were upset that the Sussex's didn't entertain others...after months of saying they're un-welcomed and nobody wants them, what's the truth? Or how another source rushed to tell the Telegraph that about how everyone snubbed a one year old's birthday party.

The Sussex's can show up, say nothing and it will still be all about them. At this point, instead of being worried about what the Sussex's will do....the family and Palace should chat with their favorite RR and say, "focus on us."

And I'd like to once again say, if the family have issue's with trusting that things won't come out from the Sussex's than that is fine. Because it's true, but let's not pretend as if both sides aren't talking to the media and the H&M also, have valid reasons not to trust that anything they communicate or anything they do won't be leaked. Because even if it's a wayward staffer going off on their own...six years later...the family and Palace have proven that they are unable to keep sensitive matters private.

I'd also like to point out that William's camp doesn't keep things quiet.

In his book Low, had said that Harry didn't want to talk to William because he was scared that information would get out.....and low and behold, that information makes it into his book.

William allegedly assaulting Harry, (many people, even when it's in Harry's own words call it a fight but no, it's not a fight) was already mentioned in some ways by Robert Lacey and Robert Jobson, who had already referenced something in about it in their books.

That's why once again, I find the family don't say/make public statements to be a simply untrue thing. Harry is doing the same his family have done for years...only, he's willing to own up to it.

Doesn?t that kind of prove Harry and Meghan wrong though? I mean, the fact that the royal family can?t control what the media focuses on. I think Charles and William would be elated if not a single other word was uttered about Meghan and Harry publicly by the media (positive or negative) and all the focus was on the monarchy. But that?s the thing, they can?t just call the papers and say, ?Hey, I know all these stories sell and everything, but could you pretty please focus on what I tell you to focus on for me, pretty please with a cherry on top????

That?s not how free press works. That?s why Harry?s desire for the RF to tell media outlets to stop saying certain things about Meghan was always highly naive. You?re right about what you?re saying. The media will write about them whether they go or they don?t. But that?s not something the RF can control, and quite frankly, nor should they have the right to, in my opinion.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on February 01, 2023, 04:34:59 PM
Doesn?t that kind of prove Harry and Meghan wrong though? I mean, the fact that the royal family can?t control what the media focuses on. I think Charles and William would be elated if not a single other word was uttered about Meghan and Harry publicly by the media (positive or negative) and all the focus was on the monarchy. But that?s the thing, they can?t just call the papers and say, ?Hey, I know all these stories sell and everything, but could you pretty please focus on what I tell you to focus on for me, pretty please with a cherry on top????

That?s not how free press works. That?s why Harry?s desire for the RF to tell media outlets to stop saying certain things about Meghan was always highly naive. You?re right about what you?re saying. The media will write about them whether they go or they don?t. But that?s not something the RF can control, and quite frankly, nor should they have the right to, in my opinion.

No, it doesn't.

As long as the coverage of them is negative, it benefits Charles and William more.

I do think, some people in the Palace tried to knock the Sussex's down a peg and it snow-balled out of control, so now that even the Palace can keep a handle on it.

I would agree that they'd want a stop to it...but that won't happen when sources on behalf of the family/palace and etc keep running to the media and fueling the fire. Charles, working and dealing with the media's was well documented before Harry and Meghan became a thing.

My point it is, because the Palace and family members waffled around, didn't make a strong stand in support against the harassments (not reasonable coverage or critic of the Sussex's), helped the coverage by briefing against their own family...they helped to create a beast that they really can't control now.

In my view.

Harry and Meghan have no problem getting their information and views out through favoured media.

Harry clutching his pearls over palace leaks is odd given they have Omid Scobie on speed dial.

Hmm, I can see where that might seem the case. That?s why I kind of wonder about their conduct while working with other palace officials. I don?t think Charles and William were personally spearheading a campaign to ruin the supposed popularity of Meghan Markle. That?s a complete nonstarter for me because of the ridiculousness of it.

However, I?m not completely against the idea of palace staff or really any other royal source (outside agencies or businesses they work with) having a bone to pick with them and releasing stories if they felt they were being mistreated. Now, I?m not saying they 100% did, but maybe they didn?t behave as kindly as the staff might have wished? Maybe they demanded too much and Harry viewed every no as an attempt to undermine him and his wife? That can wear on people.

The media is their main enemy, in my opinion. I won?t discuss the racist stories because they?re beneath my dignity to discuss. There?s no defending it or rationalizing them. They are what they are. My focus is on the negative stories (Meghan is difficult and Harry is a hypocrite and such). Harry and Meghan are clear as to where they think they originated from and why. I wonder if it maybe was about people just genuinely thinking they?re unlikeable and rude?

I think that Spare has made it very obvious that they are not at all a likable couple.  Harry is the one who put it out there that he beat up his bodyguard and that he mocked a woman with pain and a disability... it wasn't William or Camilla or Charles who put out those stories.  In fact given that H had an image for some time of being a jolly good natured not very smart but very kindly chap, who loved a few beers and a bit of fun and who was devoted to his army work and his veteran work afterwards, shows that the Royal household in fact put out positive stories about him which were at best only slightly true.
I think that the reason they began to get bad press from the time of Meg's arrival in the RF was that the Press was increasingly aware of Harry's and her darker side...and possibly the 2 of them together made a really unlikable couple - they encouraged each others worst aspects.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on February 01, 2023, 04:02:32 PM
Yeah, I agree with Amabel. I don?t think they?d sign it or abide by it and all they?d do is go to the media and complain that Charles is forcing them to sign a legal document. I?d just invite them to the public event and no other gathering or family event. I?d also advise the family to be careful what they say around them if they?re not okay with it being publicized (not that they don?t know that already). How many secret details could they reveal about an already televised event?

Im sure the RF are wary talking to them...  they know that even if they just talk about the weather, they are not immune from stuff being exaggerated and twisted, and outright made up, and attributed to them... I dont think they would abide by an NDA at all, unless Charles went in hard with lawyers and Im sure he does not want to do that.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on February 01, 2023, 04:51:45 PM

However, I?m not completely against the idea of palace staff or really any other royal source (outside agencies or businesses they work with) having a bone to pick with them and releasing stories if they felt they were being mistreated. Now, I?m not saying they 100% did, but maybe they didn?t behave as kindly as the staff might have wished? Maybe they demanded too much and Harry viewed every no as an attempt to undermine him and his wife? That can wear on people.

well people are human and PR is a vulgar business, and can sometimes involve a bit of buffing up one person to make him or her seem better, because he has had some bad PR.  But overall, the RF are supposed to be on the same page and working together, and they are not going to denigrate an important member of the Family... I think that just prior to the wedding, there seem to have been a lot of upsets and rows, and I certainly have a perception that the queen, Charles etc felt that no matter what they did to try and please H and Meg, it was never enough and never made them happy. Just like Harry claimed he wanted to leave royal life and make his own income.. yet got angry with Chalres because Ch could not go on paying his security....

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on February 01, 2023, 04:25:35 PM
It?s sad but true. That?s the crux of the issue with William, I think. It was one thing when they fought and disagreed. Whatever. But I think when Harry and Meghan went to the media with their private fights and words, a line was crossed that cannot be uncrossed. Now, you can say they don?t care and maybe they don?t. I don?t think Meghan cares on a personal level like Harry might, but I think not inviting them to the places where private moments are held will sting eventually. Mainly because their connection to the family will dissipate and that?s where their allure comes from. Getting invited to a coronation isn?t just for family, so I don?t count that as being invited to a ?family event.?

But I think everyone needs to move on. The RF don?t need them. William and Charles have their partners and family, so they?ll carry on. And Meghan and Harry will need to find another schtick that isn?t talking about the royals. Goodness knows they have many options and tools to do so, so I hope they choose to do this soon for their own sake.

Harry chose his path, so anything that comes with that choice is something he has to accept. It?ll be a cold day in Hell before William apologizes, in my opinion, because of the seriousness of the transgression.

It?s funny. William has a much more mature attitude toward media than Harry does, in my opinion. He has accepted that they have public roles that come with a lot of negative media attention, and he?s also not interested in them invading his family?s privacy, like Harry claims he?s doing. William and Kate have set clear lines of what is acceptable to document in regards to their children. They preempt things by taking pictures themselves and releasing them. Tentatively introducing them to the public during some events and not others.

William plays nice with the media because he knows it?s a part of his position, even though he distrusts them. This distrust is valid. They?re not your friends. And no public figure should ever confuse a few months or years of good press with them ?liking you.? It?s a business and should be treated as such.

He would never trust the media enough with his private thoughts, comments, and stories because he doesn?t trust that they?d understand or care about him enough to treat these stories with respect. And he shouldn?t. No one should. That Harry did this with William?s thoughts and stories is a complete infringement from William?s perspective, in my opinion.

And Harry seems to shows a great deal of trust in the media that he claims to despise. It?s perplexing really.

Yes, for someone who has been burned by the media, Harry does have a certain amount of trust in particular commentators and interviewers. However I wonder if he still feels the same way after his Spare publicity campaign? Does Tom Braby still hold a favored spot after questioning him during the interview?

William, Catherine and Harry were all targeted  by the phone hacking scandal and understandably have their concerns and reservations about the media. The then Cambridges also dealt with the Closer lawsuit over the photos taken in France and issued a statement about the tactics used by the press to obtain photos of George in 2015. However over time, they do appear to have come to a compromise regarding press coverage of their public and personal lives.

With Harry and Meghan, we know that this is still an ever evolving situation especially with their ongoing legal actions. I'm not sure where it will eventually end up.

As for the Sussexes' presence at the Coronation and their possible interaction with members of their family, I do believe it will be the family likely being even more guarded especially in the wake of Harry and Meghan along with the release of Spare.  Afterall Meghan has reminded us that she never signed anything when it came to her tenure as a senior royal. I believe that she and Harry have no qualms sharing the details of personal conversations. So I expect to that there  will be a great deal of filler chatter about the weather.

Quote from: Amabel2 on February 01, 2023, 05:44:33 PM
I think that Spare has made it very obvious that they are not at all a likable couple.  Harry is the one who put it out there that he beat up his bodyguard and that he mocked a woman with pain and a disability... it wasn't William or Camilla or Charles who put out those stories.  In fact given that H had an image for some time of being a jolly good natured not very smart but very kindly chap, who loved a few beers and a bit of fun and who was devoted to his army work and his veteran work afterwards, shows that the Royal household in fact put out positive stories about him which were at best only slightly true.
I think that the reason they began to get bad press from the time of Meg's arrival in the RF was that the Press was increasingly aware of Harry's and her darker side...and possibly the 2 of them together made a really unlikable couple - they encouraged each others worst aspects.

@Amabel2,  your point about Harry?s previous image is a good one. To hear Harry tell it, the palace PR have always thrown him under the bus and do everything in their power to make William look good and be well liked. The second part is true. It?s kind of their job to make William look good, just like every other PR employee. But Harry fails to mention just how well-liked he was when under those same PR officials. He was incredibly popular and most people bought the image that was created of the lovable, down-to-Earth chap who ?just happened to be born a prince.? In reality, he seemed to be a young man consumed by rage.

Since he has taken over the reigns of his own story, his popularly has plummeted. From my perspective, the PR team saved him for himself many a time. I think Meghan was not the driving force behind his demands once the marriage started. I think that was mostly him wanting to demand more control because he now felt more secure with her by his side. But his way of doing things doesn?t seem to yield a ton of good PR. He?s doing it his way and I think he?d see that as a success, but brutal from the neutral perspective.

Quote from: Kristeh-H on February 01, 2023, 03:12:47 PM
Very valid points, HistoryGirl2, but it seems to me that not responding to Harry and Meghan is not a spiteful act, but a wise and necessary one.  Harry and Meghan have proven they are not trustworthy.  They have no respect for others' privacy.  They will sell out the family and stab them in the back for money.  And based on the Sussexes' previous words and actions, I think that whatever Charles and the palace do, short of groveling at Harry and Meghan's feet and granting their every wish, will not be enough to satisfy them.  I think it would more prudent for the family to continue to ignore them and carry on doing their jobs.  They're playing the long game after all.

If the Sussexes are invited to the Coronation, I do sincerely hope that there will lots of conditions and controls to prevent them from turning a beautiful and solemn occasion into their own little circus.     

I absolutely and totally agree with you 1,000%.  Harry and Meghan can NOT be TRUSTED at all and it is not the BP or their staff  or William that will betray Charles, it is Harry's rage and anger at not being born first and then because HM said NO to the HIHO deal they wanted.   There is NOTHING to be gained by the royal family letting them have their own way as it will end up on the cover of some magazine, TV interviews or another Book which I am sure is already in the works by both of them...Spare the Sequel and Meghan's whatever title she chooses.

Quote from: Kristeh-H on February 01, 2023, 04:10:26 PM
Yes, I agree with you both, that I'm not sure the Sussexes would abide by any agreements and I doubt Charles would take action.  Which is why I don't think the Sussexes should be invited.  They are simply not trustworthy.

Edited to add, that while I have appreciated the Royal Family acting with grace in the face of the Sussexes hostility, I do think there is a point where they need to cut Harry and Meghan off.  They shouldn't respond in kind, and get into a tit-for-tat public fight, but just don't have anything to do with them.  I would hope that most people would understand that sometimes, for your own sake, people need to cut contact with toxic family members.

Oh how right you are about cutting out *toxin family members, I had to do that a very long time ago for my own safety and sanity.....this book really helped me to see myself and how to deal with issues I had no control of...*Learning to Love Yourself by Sharon Wegscheider-Cruse*. I still have the original book on my bedside table bought some decades ago....even my sister loved it for it was spot on talk.

Quote from: PrincessOfPeace on February 01, 2023, 04:45:09 PM
Harry and Meghan have no problem getting their information and views out through favoured media.

Harry clutching his pearls over palace leaks is odd given they have Omid Scobie on speed dial.

That is what gets me, here is Harry complaining there are leaks by William or his dad yet here is Harry the one who says he hates the media doing all the leaking to the media, talk about double talk and back stabbing, Harry is a wiz at it.  And in Harry's own words in his own books he tells leaks and lies again.

Quote from: HistoryGirl2 on February 02, 2023, 12:14:54 AM
@Amabel2,  your point about Harry?s previous image is a good one. To hear Harry tell it, the palace PR have always thrown him under the bus and do everything in their power to make William look good and be well liked. The second part is true. It?s kind of their job to make William look good, just like every other PR employee. But Harry fails to mention just how well-liked he was when under those same PR officials. He was incredibly popular and most people bought the image that was created of the lovable, down-to-Earth chap who ?just happened to be born a prince.? In reality, he seemed to be a young man consumed by rage.

Since he has taken over the reigns of his own story, his popularly has plummeted. From my perspective, the PR team saved him for himself many a time. I think Meghan was not the driving force behind his demands once the marriage started. I think that was mostly him wanting to demand more control because he now felt more secure with her by his side. But his way of doing things doesn?t seem to yield a ton of good PR. He?s doing it his way and I think he?d see that as a success, but brutal from the neutral perspective.

*Since he has taken over the reigns of his own story, his popularly has plummeted. From my perspective, the PR team saved him for himself many a time. I think Meghan was not the driving force behind his demands once the marriage started. I think that was mostly him wanting to demand more control because he now felt more secure with her by his side. But his way of doing things doesn?t seem to yield a ton of good PR. He?s doing it his way and I think he?d see that as a success, but brutal from the neutral perspective.* 

This is spot on about Harry doing things his own way, that is such a great insight into Harry now.  He has a partner, a wife and someone who believes in him as he I believe has felt there is no one who believes in him in the royal family, yet we all know that his Dad and Brother have deeply loved him since he was born, after his Mother died I honestly believe that Charles was in shock for a long time on how to be a single dad and in his position he was so busy 24/7 that he of course made mistakes in raising both boys.  We all know William had his issues with his dad yet they somehow worked through it as father and son........Harry I believe was very jealous of William even as a young boy, with the help of nannies or family and BP they put Harry many times in a good light when he wasn't that way.  Harry is the one pushing this drama and pushing his family away, his book told a lot about Harry, not the royal family to me.  And the look of Harry is bad, really really bad and that is Harry's OWN DOING not someone else or BP or KP. This all falls on Harry now.....and I don't think he is even aware of how bad his reputation is as I don't think he has anyone around him to tell him the truth.

Quote from: Nightowl on February 02, 2023, 08:40:13 AM
That is what gets me, here is Harry complaining there are leaks by William or his dad yet here is Harry the one who says he hates the media doing all the leaking to the media, talk about double talk and back stabbing, Harry is a wiz at it.  And in Harry's own words in his own books he tells leaks and lies again..

Harry and Meg have both made it clear that they only want to speak to reporters who will agree with them and give them a good image. 

It's never going to work with the Sussexes, Harry is obsessed with William, Meghan with Catherine.

Administrator reminder: Please consider that everyone who participates in the discussion at Royal Insight Forum are welcome to their own personal opinions about the public figures that we discuss and that includes the Duke and Duchess of Sussex. Please do not question why their fans choose to believe them.  The fans of the couple are to be treated with respect just like any other members.

Thanks, everyone.  Yes, unfortunately my own family has been through having to cut off contact with someone in a bad situation.  It can be heartbreaking, but sometimes it's necessary.  My heart does go out to Charles, but I hope he will have the strength and toughness to stand firm.   

Quote from: Amabel2 on February 02, 2023, 10:21:23 AM
Harry and Meg have both made it clear that they only want to speak to reporters who will agree with them and give them a good image.

I would pay good money to watch them have an interview with a journalist who would actually ask them tough questions about their inconsistencies and lies.  Unfortunately, as you say, it will never happen but it would be interesting to see them put on the spot.

Never going to happen.  That was one of their major reasons for cutting off with most of the press....and as far as  I can see, none of the interviewers that H has been dealing with lately has asked any real questons. At least I hope they dont go "wha-at" in that phoney way that Oprah did.

According to Neil Sean, there are two journalists that are already Markled. Tom and Omid. Time will tell.  Same with Oprah markling Meghan, time will tell.

Quote from: Amabel2 on February 02, 2023, 02:57:20 PM
Never going to happen.  That was one of their major reasons for cutting off with most of the press....and as far as  I can see, none of the interviewers that H has been dealing with lately has asked any real questons. At least I hope they dont go "wha-at" in that phoney way that Oprah did.

Oh yes, I know it will never happen.  And I have always liked Oprah, but boy, I rolled my eyes hard at that line.

and what does Markled mean

Quote from: Kristeh-H on February 02, 2023, 03:15:31 PM
Oh yes, I know it will never happen.  And I have always liked Oprah, but boy, I rolled my eyes hard at that line.

really? I have never seen Oprah, but when I saw that bit I thoguth even a 2 year old child would not be fooled by that phoney way of talking.

Quote from: Amabel2 on February 02, 2023, 03:16:03 PM
and what does Markled mean

Ghosted

Again Im afriad I dont know what that means.

It?s when a person stops communicating with someone out of the blue.  In this case the implication is that Meghan uses people until they are no longer of any use to her and she drops them. 

Quote from: Kristeh-H on February 02, 2023, 02:49:03 PM
I would pay good money to watch them have an interview with a journalist who would actually ask them tough questions about their inconsistencies and lies.  Unfortunately, as you say, it will never happen but it would be interesting to see them put on the spot.

I?d pay good money to see anyone be interviewed by a real journalist. They?re really hard to find. So many people see any line of questioning as ?an attack? when all you?re trying to do is find out more information and verify the information they are telling you.

It?s a lost art and the appreciation for it is even lower these days.

Scrutiny and standing up to scrutiny should not be seen as an attack. You should be responsible for the words and statements you put out there. That?s why Harry?s comment that his feelings and memory hold more truth ?than so-called hard facts? is so patently absurd, but very much in keeping with the new fascination with personal truths and alternative facts.

but Harry and MEghan have made it clear that they wont be interviewed by anyone who will ask hard questions. and H seems to belieive that he can say anyting he likes and contradict it 2 days later....

Quote from: Macrobug67 on February 02, 2023, 04:18:29 PM
It?s when a person stops communicating with someone out of the blue.  In this case the implication is that Meghan uses people until they are no longer of any use to her and she drops them.

It is hardly a behaviour that is exclusive to Meghan so I dont understand the use of the term Markled.

What a legend. Her maiden last name in the urban dictionary.

Is it really in a dictionary?

Urban Dictionary is a popular online dictionary of slang phrases. However anyone can post definitions there, including trolls.

The biggest burying one's head in the sand situation.  :happycry:

With BOTH families Markled/Ghosted/Dropped, of course it made it to the Urban Dictionary.

???

The little window of hope is dead.

really I cant understand these cryptic posts, so I think I'll stop reading them.

IPSO released a statement about investigating the compliments made about Jeremy Clarkson

Complaints investigated over Jeremy Clarkson?s article on the Duchess of Sussex (https://www.ipso.co.uk/news-press-releases/news/complaints-investigated-over-jeremy-clarkson-s-article-on-the-duchess-of-sussex/)

I don't expect it to anywhere

Quote from: changemhysoul on February 09, 2023, 07:05:01 PM
IPSO released a statement about investigating the compliments made about Jeremy Clarkson

Complaints investigated over Jeremy Clarkson?s article on the Duchess of Sussex (https://www.ipso.co.uk/news-press-releases/news/complaints-investigated-over-jeremy-clarkson-s-article-on-the-duchess-of-sussex/)

I don't expect it to anywhere

I believe at some point that the results of the investigation will be made public. IPSO has a duty to investigate the complaints. Now as to the consequences that might be given to Mr. Clarkson and The Sun, that will remain to be seen.

Quote

IPSO ? the Independent Press Standards Organisation ? has launched an investigation into an article published by The Sun on 17 December 2022, headlined ?One day, Harold the glove puppet will tell the truth about A Woman Talking B*****ks?. 

The column, by Jeremy Clarkson, was also published online on thesun.co.uk and later removed. 

We are taking forward complaints from two groups, The Fawcett Society and The Wilde Foundation, who said they were affected by breaches of Clause 1 (Accuracy), Clause 3 (Harassment) and Clause 12 (Discrimination) in the article. You can find out more about representative group complaints here: Representative group complaints (ipso.co.uk). 

We will make public the outcome of this investigation through our website and on our social media channels when it is concluded.

In total, IPSO received more than 25,100 complaints from members of the public about this article.

As bad as it was, IPSO will probably considered it fair comment.

Worth remembering, lPSO, is an industry regulator. Press regulating the Press. 

There's been a press free from government regulation since the 1600s

A random thought but funny that thought that I saw and agree with, there have been more articles about the imaginary South Park lawsuit and a trademark renewal, Harry's lawsuit against the Mail, for lying about his offer to pay for security.

Esp, from their favorite fans the DM. One would think with the breaking news of Harry coming to the uk not for the coronation but to speak as witness in-person, one would think they'd have 17 articles up about it now.

The Daily Mail has the largest readership, top 3 worldwide, that is 10 million enter digitally every day.  The usual digital news medium and high are between 1 to 3 million entries daily. To have 10 million people clicking in means  that company tabloid is a large operation.

I'll give this tabloid a 65/35 based on breaking news that turned out to be true. The other 35% in between a true that the 'subject' decided a no go or a full false.  When I say a true that the subject decided a no go because of the breaking news disclosure, it means the subject was discovered by the tabloid, but decided not to do whatever he/she/they were planning to do.  i.e. Harry reinforced this in his Spare book. 

Edit to add Daily Mail: this past 72 hours, in the 65%, there will/may be some sentences or full paragraphs that are ''off'', but the basic info is good.  i.e. the latest tennis and F1 news in sports has this sort of basis is true with a few fan fiction stuff i.e. Novak and Lewis Hamilton. They reported 24 to 36 hours ago, today it has been confirmed by the subjects; Djokovic for Tennis, Lewis Hamilton for F1/Mercedes.

In a separate comment, in reference to a possible The Tig trademark renewal, it's originator is the New York Post, a USA tabloid.

The New York Post cites a document filed with the US Patent and Trademark Office, seen by the daily newspaper. It reportedly indicates that a prospective relaunched version of the website could encompass articles and interviews on 'food, cooking, recipes, travel, relationships, fashion, style, interior design, lifestyle, the arts, culture, design, conscious living, health and wellness.   

^The NYPost sold its breaking news copyrights to whomever wanted to ''republish'' it.  My friend Google tells me the first ''international'' that purchased NYPost copyright breaking news was UK TATLER Magazine. The above quote.

IF IF we want to go further, with why the media who purchase the copyright goes ''deeper'', my friend Google tells me the likes of the Daily Mail, Fox News and CNN which are 'large operations' have the means to do so, the tools, the know who, the ''contact book'' so they add their stuff in the i.e. NYPost breaking news like saying that their contacts in California suggests it to be true and that Archewell or Meghan is searching for a team to work with her for the relaunch of The Tig.  So every breaking news when purchased by a large corp, it WILL have a dozen of articles divided into fact finding to opinion pieces to what he/she/they wore/looked like if there is a picture or video included.

Ref the Daily Fail, people (in Britain anyway, and I suspect elsewhere) don?t read that rag to get serious news from it, but to peruse stuff about celebs, crime, odd occurrences etc, for entertainment purposes. People in Britain who want commentary on political or national crises still turn to the BBC, which, for all its faults still has the stamp of authority. Same with serious topics of conversation.

Nobody with half a brain cell would read the Fail as its first port of call in those circumstances. It?s not regarded as anything other than entertainment. YouGov once did a survey on tabloids and whether their readership believed they printed the truth in their stories. Respondents believed that these rags told the truth in about 13% of their articles as a rule. That was years ago, but I would say that still holds.

RE: The Tig, this happens every year. She's keeping her trade-mark or whatever so people don't get used to it. It's just funny that they're running imagery stories about this and had so much to say about South Park but nothing to say about the fact that Harry will be speaking against them in court.

Quote from: Curryong on March 18, 2023, 01:25:11 AM
Ref the Daily Fail, people (in Britain anyway, and I suspect elsewhere) don?t read that rag to get serious news from it, but to peruse stuff about celebs, crime, odd occurrences etc, for entertainment purposes. People in Britain who want commentary on political or national crises still turn to the BBC, which, for all its faults still has the stamp of authority. Same with serious topics of conversation.

Nobody with half a brain cell would read the Fail as its first port of call in those circumstances. It?s not regarded as anything other than entertainment. YouGov once did a survey on tabloids and whether their readership believed they printed the truth in their stories. Respondents believed that these rags told the truth in about 13% of their articles as a rule. That was years ago, but I would say that still holds.

I agree overall but there is a reason the Daily Mail and other tabs are said to pick the politicians. They still do have power, I THINK the Daily Mail is still the most read print paper. People trust it, they pump out propaganda.

The owner of the BBC was replaced with a Johnson man and we know about it. 

I don't dismiss the daily maiil because it's one of the main papers that would lie and ramp up hate against a woman of color (well, people of color in general).

I think there is a fine line to walk with them, It's true to say that the average person understand it's tabloid drama and etc but it's also true that they have a lot of sway with the general public.

Good article on the "woe is charles" articles that have been pumped out since Harry left.

King Charles Is Sad Harry Didn?t Stay for More Shunning (https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/05/king-charles-sad-prince-harry-left-coronation.html?utm_source=tw&utm_medium=s1&utm_campaign=nym)

Posts for Birthday Boy Prince Archie  :bday10: have been moved to the thread linked below.

Sussex family birthdays, anniversaries and other milestones (https://www.royalinsight.net/forum/index.php?topic=91170.0)

MAUREEN CALLAHAN's first-hand account of Meghan's word-salad appearance at New York award gala | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12098661/MAUREEN-CALLAHANs-hand-account-Meghans-word-salad-appearance-New-York-award-gala.html)

Maureen was at the award ceremony, her account via the Daily Mail