Royal Insight Forum

Several times I have encountered that fox hunting was banned and was pretty astonished to hear that it is allowed to hunt foxes but without hounds.
I wanteds to ask you all what do you know about fox hunting, how do you feel about it and what do you think about the royal family's eager participation on this point???
It would be nice if experts of both sides (pro and against hunting) could serve us with core information.  :thumbsup:
I hope a nice debate could be held.

With kind regards,
Liz :flowers:

SAY NO TO HUNTING! (http://i82.photobucket.com/albums/j259/polo_pony/furkills.jpg) fur kills.

Anyway, I am totally against foxhunting. I don't care if your Prince Charles, or Benny-Jim from the grocer down the road. It's wrong. Killing, anything, but KILLING a defenceless animal!  a fox in no means can outrun a hunting dog, or defend from the slashing of a hunter's dog's mouth tearing the fur off, making them being thrashed about, having blood spurted everywhere.  It's wrong. Why, have we come to the point that killing is okay, oh yes, killing is a game. No!  We don't have to resort  to killing , we can find an alternative to enjoy ourselves.  Would you say that a fox is a mammal? Would you?  Would you say, HEY! Lets go kill  Jon Doe, he's an stupid defenceless kid. Were bored, we need something to do. Boo hoo. No, humans, are mammals. Foxes are mammals. Like it or not, we share this earth with animals, we have no right whatsoever to kill a small animal to enjoy ourselves. No. The foxes have a right to live there life, just like we do. if WE deserves rights on this WORLD, so do foxes. Foxes have a place, and yes, play a part in this world. it's wrong. Killing=wrong.  You wouldn't kill me ( i hope) , so why kill an fox? Why, being an animal, make it suddenly OKAY to kill them? because..they are orage? bushy-tailed? cute? defenceless? yes, this may be an age old sport, but not anymore. Not anymore. As a proud supooter of PETA, Fox hunting is wrong.



( not directing this at anyway, this remains my opinion! :) )

i'm not against hunting but i do have some reservations about it if ur not eating what ur shooting, fishing or trapping.  and certainly i'm against any sort of excessive hunting....meaning the animal goes extint. 

that said i was sorry to hear fox hunting was getting banned in England.  hypocritical i kno since the fox isnt eaten afterwards!  i was sorry to hear it partly bcuz of the tradition attached to it and partly bcuz culling animals is sometimes necessary (for the good not only of human intrests but for the health of the environment as well...and often other animals.) and if people want to dress up and blow horns while they do it...well....ok weird but go for it! :laugh:

QuoteKilling, anything, but KILLING a defenceless animal!  a fox in no means can outrun a hunting dog, or defend from the slashing of a hunter's dog's mouth....

a fox has more defenses then a dog.  mainly its brain.  they dont say "sly as a fox" for nothing. ;)  foxes and dogs come from the same family and r a lot alike.  the same things that help a dog find a fox help the fox get away from the dog.  they can and often do out run the dogs.  plenty of foxes have saved themselves simply by tireing out the humans and horses who must call back the dogs from the chase.  most foxes arent killed by the dogs but get shot by the human hunters after the dogs have tracked or chased it to its burrows.  although they do send a terrier down the hole to corner it.  most foxes die this way.  the hunters will give the dogs the dead fox as a reward.  its not pretty but few things in nature are when you get right down to it. :shrug:

QuoteIt's wrong. Why, have we come to the point that killing is okay, oh yes, killing is a game. No!  We don't have to resort  to killing , we can find an alternative to enjoy ourselves.

killing has always been ok.  like you said we're all mammals.  red in tooth and claw.  there r microscopic things in you, on you and all around you fighting to the death right now.  eating meat is what gave humanity its complex brain.  we'd b pray if we hadn't become omnivores....actually we're still pray!  people still get killed and eaten by carnivores.  and thats just the fellow mammals.  there r poisonous insects and reptiles that'll kill you just as quickly.  trust me no carnivorous animal will ever chose to become vegetarian or decide it's immoral to kill and eat a human--or anything else--if they are hungry enough to go after one.  that sort of thinking is a strictly human privilege. :happy:  it's not as likely for most humans to b killed and eaten by an animal.  but it does happen every year.  crocodiles, sharks, hyenas, hippo!  give em all space!

but back to foxes!

Quoteso why kill an fox? Why, being an animal, make it suddenly OKAY to kill them? because..they are orage? bushy-tailed? cute? defenceless? y

bcuz foxes are a predator which inconveniences human intrests.  simple as that really.  farmers started killing foxes bcuz foxes were killing their livestock.  chickens, geese etc. and lambs mostly.  farmers mostly trapped or poisoned them.  then the upper classes started running out of deer (they'd already run out of wolves and boar) and made fox hunting the new  "exclusive" sport.  farmers werent allowed to kill them anymore but they didnt care, at least the rich people were doing it for them.  that was centuries ago and nothing has changed really.  people still enjoy the chase and will pay out the nose to do it.  and farmers still need to keep their livelyhood safe from predators.  even if it's banned farmers will continue to kill foxes bcuz foxes will continue to go after their easy prey livestock.  but farmers wont give the foxes a fair chance to outrun their hunters.  they'll just use traps or poison like they did before.  frankly i'd rather have a pack of dogs after me then die foaming at the mouth from poison....if i were a fox that is. ;)

wow.  that was rather long! :happytears:  sorry! :blush:

IMHO...I agree with Stix...hunting for pure enjoyment rather than for necessity is not good.

That said..if the element of neccessity is combined with sport then I also have nothing against it. So long as it is not done in a cruel and inhumane fashion.

I loathe foxes.  They are a huge pest here. They cause major distress to our native wildlife not to mention farmers stock.  They were an intrroduced species to Australia and therefore IMHO they should be hunted and wiped out. They have upset the natural eco processes and have nearly eradicted some forms of small native marsupials. 

Baldwin Spottingham could probably tell us more about this issue. ;)

Okay, foxes are smarter than dogs, but obviously can't outrun them. I think it's cruel and necessary, to today's standard's to kill anything, for sport. Hunting, and fox hunting are wrong, if foxes are eating your chickens, too bad so sad, put up a fence.

But today, I think they can dress up and blow horns, just don't kill the foxes. i mean, I would never EVER be able to kill something. I can't even bring myself to kill a bug.  They're are 'mock' hunts, when you drag a scent, but there is just no fox. 

Foxes may be a nuisance, but you don't have to kill them. Brutally. I mean really, who enjoys a fox being ripped apart by hounds? Who enjoy's killing something?  If foxes eat other things, thats nature, it's not human nature to kill something that doesn't need to be killed.

Become Anti-torture (http://www.gopetition.co.uk/online/2732.html)

QuoteEvery part of a fox hunt is cruel - from the chase, to the dig-out, to the kill. There is no 'quick nip to the back of the neck' in hunting. Lead hounds will snap at any part of the running fox, before the pack rip it to pieces. If the fox manages to go to ground, then it will be forced to fight with terriers for hours before being hauled out and, if lucky, shot.

Copper the fox made national headlines. After being chased, and caught, by the Chiddingford, Leconfield and Cowdray Hunt hounds, he managed to bolt down a rabbit hole. Luckily, Hunt Saboteurs were close by and physically blocked the hounds from Copper, using a policeman's helmet.

Copper had suffered bite wounds to his rear flanks and was losing blood from his penis due to kidney damage caused during the stress and exhaustion of the long run from the hounds. The vet was able to offer scientific evidence that hunted foxes undergo pathological stress, a level of suffering so intense that they can die even if they succeed in escaping the jaws of the hounds. He was quoted as saying 'I have never seen such trauma in a dog, even a badly injured one.'

Post-mortems commissioned by the Home Office on four foxes killed by hunting revealed that there was evidence of multiple bite wounds to the face, head, rib cage, heart, lungs and stomach. (The Observer, 11/6/00)

yep, this is just an opinion of a tree-hugger. In no means is this directed at anyone.  :)

 Fox hunting is a "blood sport", in much the same way as cock fighting, dog fighting , bull baiting etc.
       In my family the men and women all went to "the shoot" and killed hundreds of pheasants et al.
            Tradition.......you know.
               Other old traditions included locking up "not quite right in the head" members of the family, the Laird having first go at a bride to be, kicking off entire families from the estate, if one of them crossed a line in familiarity.
               Aaaaaaaaah the good old days!     
                  when children and were stuffed up a chimney, and grateful to be there! 8)
                             Heather :hiya:

I don't see fox hunting as a tradition anymore... :(

.........in saying the above.......I wonder how we all might feel if they changed it to "RAT" hunting? :shrug:

oh sorry, I didn't know. :flowers:  What's RAT hunting?  :hmm:

 :)

    If the animal they were chasing down and tearing apart was a rat, would be people get all worked up about it? :teehee:

yes, I think so. Animals are animals, make that a fox, rat. Mammals are mammals. Some people might regard animals 'lower' or 'higher' then others, but really we are all the same. If rats were extinct, our 'web of life' would suffer the consequences. they do torture rats too, in laboratory's. But, I''ll stay on topic and only refer to foxes.  :)

terriers were originally bred to hunt rats i think.  just like fox hounds were bred to hunt foxes.  and just like polo ponies were bred to play polo.  it all depends on ur perspective on wether its useful or not.  or moral or not.  or cruel or not.  or fair or not.  so there r a million different opinions and no single answer. ;)

True. But this is a friendly debate. I know I'm a nuisance, but we don't start a polo_pony hunt.   :teehee:

^ naw!  you're not a nuisance. :)  it's just a difficult question to answer easily.  i understand your point of view and agree with some points but i cant completely agree with it.  u kno? :happy:

of course. We all have our different views on everything!   :)  :happy:

I like foxes, unless they're in the hen house.  :happy:

I have read all your replies and do thank you so much that some of you answered.
A common statement many farmers do give on this subject is that in order to keep the foxes under control (and aways from their hens,etc.) it is vitally needed to hunt.
How about that? And on the other hand isn't hunting somehow a God.given right to mankind ? :hmm:

Well,  I don't think it's a God given right to kill. But, I don't know, if it was in the bible, the bible was written a long time ago.  :shrug:

Yeah, some farmers might want them hunted, but I think, hey, foxes will always be around. yes, kill one that is the seemly pest, but more will come. I think farmers, landowners, -whatever-  would be best advised to put up a fence, a good one, to keep all unwanted pesks at bay. Killing shouldn't be the easy way out to a simple solution of a fence, make that a high fence.    :)

 The fox is quite adept at digging under fences! :teehee:

I know some of you are going to get upset and that is not my intent... :flowers: my opinion is
ps. I didn't read anyone elses post before writing, I just went off of what I think
Nothing seperates us from the other mammals on this earth except our mentality.  We seem to think that we are the superior being.  Well, we aren't.  We are part of the food chain, sometimes we are on top and sometimes we aren't.  From a farming stand point, fox hunting is good.  In a country where you are not allowed to own a gun, trained dogs are your only line of defense from predators who want to eat your livestock (sheep, goats, calfs, ect..).  What is the difference in having a hunting party go out and hunt compared to a farmer turning out his sheep dog or hounds  in the middle of the night to do the same job.  Are we going to outlaw dogs next. I most certainy have not seen the anti-hunters offering to replace the livestock that are lost.  I also don't see them camping out at night trying to protect the livestock that get mamed or eaten.  Call it a sport, call it a game...whatever.  It does have it's purpose and can be a useful tool to prevent loss.  The people who feed this world are the least respected and it makes me sick.  Everyone seems to have a cause to fight for and very few have solutions.

Okay off of my soapbox..I think fox hunting should be legal, I eat meat but don't wear fur because I think it is ugly..you just look like you need to shave or pluck or wax whatever :rolleyes:

i agree with you blue eyes...i think 'fox hunting' is a rich man's sport...it has little 2 do with actual farmers...i know how 2 hunt...learned it from a young age...i can shoot anything i wanna get rid of...or kill....but 2 argue its a matter of opinion...whether fox hunting is 'cruel'...is like arguing 'torture' is a matter of opinion :rolleyes: cus we are really speaking on behalf of the hunted/tortured...in this case...fox...which when he's trapped by the dog...is ripped 2 pieces...quite disgusting if you've ever been on one....its inhumane...&..i think a way for lazy ass men 2 feel like men...instead of going out 2 wars :gaah:

i'm all for hunting...as long you eat what you kill...besides...respect for nature...&...animals.... doesn't mean being a vegan....but it means...respecting living species...understanding...we are on their territory...we are the intrudors...not the other way around...&...if alot of these pro-fox hunting has all the energy...2 break into the parliament...line up for hrs...protesting against the ban...maybe they shoudl use same energy....on helping the farmers...suffering from lose of their cattles/sheeps thanks 2 MC....&.....FD...or even lifting a finger...doing a decent labor ones  in their life.

Quote from: heather on July 31, 2006, 12:32:55 AM
Fox hunting is a "blood sport", in much the same way as cock fighting, dog fighting , bull baiting etc.
       In my family the men and women all went to "the shoot" and killed hundreds of pheasants et al.
            Tradition.......you know.
               Other old traditions included locking up "not quite right in the head" members of the family, the Laird having first go at a bride to be, kicking off entire families from the estate, if one of them crossed a line in familiarity.
               Aaaaaaaaah the good old days!     
                  when children and were stuffed up a chimney, and grateful to be there! 8)
                             Heather :hiya:

:lmao:  kewl :lmao:

I guess I don't see the differece in the foxes being allowed to rip sheep, goats and calves limb from limb...and a hunting party going out and hunting down a fox.  If shooting is humane then what happens when the animal doesn't die right away...
A sheep dog will do the same thing that those hunting dogs do. 

I think this has little to do with torture and protecting animals.  I more think it has to do with young people feeling like they need a cause.  So they start with what the upper crust of society does that they don't do and say "Look at those barbarians" "They are so misguided, lets change them and their way of life to suit our way of life"....I think that if more people tended to their own business then we as a society would have less problems...People now days are to busy talking about what the other guy is doing wrong...to do right themselves.
I remember watching as the verdict was read about banning fox hunts....a lady who had been campaigning for the ban cheered as the decision was handed down...At first I was like "Score one for the tree huggers"  but the I noticed she was wearing a wool suit...I had to laugh ...it dawned on me that she has obviously had a bad experience with a sheep or a sheppard broke her heart  :shrug:  I lmao
I don't think it has to do with them feeling like men or war or whatever...because women go tooo and there are ex military and current military as well as civillians on the hunts.I do agree it is for the wealth, but most of the time anyone can come...

PS

I think the ending is gross too     Hippie C
:gaah:

Quote from: hippie_cyndi on August 03, 2006, 05:51:46 AMwe are on their territory...we are the intrudors...not the other way around

What?!  Why on earth do you think that?! It isn't like we came down from space and invaded Earth!! We have a right to be here, just like everything else!

We also have a right to feed ourselves, and if that means having to kill foxes, either to eat (:shrug:) or to stop them from destroying another food source, then that is our RIGHT.

Do they eat the fox?  :blink:

I don't think I'd like to eat a fox.  :unsure:

LOL, I am not sure M, but you never know!! :lol:

(I betchya people in Louisiana do ;))

:teehee:

Quote from: Jenee on August 03, 2006, 03:11:16 PM
What?!  Why on earth do you think that?! It isn't like we came down from space and invaded Earth!! We have a right to be here, just like everything else!

We also have a right to feed ourselves, and if that means having to kill foxes, either to eat (:shrug:) or to stop them from destroying another food source, then that is our RIGHT.

:blink: :lmao:

anyway, what i mean....we are mammals...but we are pretty selfish one....most of the natural habitat...are completely disappearing...we are expanding our homes/building/cutting down trees...to create ugly golf course...trying to eliminate the habitat...that makes these animals survive....even us....we destroying our world...which forces some of these animals...to seek food...from our farms...migrate if they can...&...mostly die...yada...yada

we are not the ones...who kill...just 2 feed ourselves...unless you are massai....aboriginal...or other groups...that respect their own nature...we are mostly killing for fun...or...for profit :shrug:

so, instead of looking @ them as some kind of intrudor...recognise...we are the ones...intruding on their homes....by confiscating lands...eliminating their means of survival....building our version of homes.....if you want 2 kill fox...2 minimize their #s in an environmental way...go ahead...but using them...2 justify...men/women...who consider hunting....cornering...&...killing them...in the name of 'sport'...is...useless...&...vicious....not that you are saying it :hiya:

Quote from: hippie_cyndi on August 03, 2006, 09:37:31 PM
:blink: :lmao:

anyway, what i mean....we are mammals...but we are pretty selfish one....most of the natural habitat...are completely disappearing...we are expanding our homes/building/cutting down trees...to create ugly golf course...trying to eliminate the habitat...that makes these animals survive....even us....we destroying our world...which forces some of these animals...to seek food...from our farms...migrate if they can...&...mostly die...yada...yada

we are not the ones...who kill...just 2 feed ourselves...unless you are massai....aboriginal...or other groups...that respect their own nature...we are mostly killing for fun...or...for profit :shrug:

so, instead of looking @ them as some kind of intruder...recognize...we are the ones...intruding on their homes....by confiscating lands...eliminating their means of survival....building our version of homes.....if you want 2 kill fox...2 minimize their #s in an environmental way...go ahead...but using them...2 justify...men/women...who consider hunting....cornering...&...killing them...in the name of 'sport'...is...useless...&...vicious....not that you are saying it :hiya:

You certainly have a point and I do somehow agree with you.
But I cannot help it, I constantly have to think about Darwin while reading your post. 'Survival of the fittest'. Probably, if not mankind but another species were in charge of the earth they maybe would not behave otherwise.  :shrug: Maybe if foxes would rule the world they would also kill other living creatures??

 :blink:

 :happytears:

ps. Elizabeth...you could be rite...who knows...if they were as 'smart' as us...they may also do the dumpest things :laugh:

People aren't all bad though. A lot has been done to preserve natural areas and to bring back species from the brink of extinction. A lot of animal species have been saved because of efforts people have made to preserve them. Believe it or not, but in the U.S., a lot of natural areas and animals have been preserved BY hunters and fishermen. Without hunting and fishing dollars, many areas would not be in the beautiful states they are in now. Lakes, forest, prairies, marshland and such... are often times flourishing because of the people who do hunt. These people usually have a very deep appreciation and understanding of nature and the reality of it.

My father, 2 brothers and husband are all hunters. They hunt deer, pheasant and turkeys mostly. In the case of deer, the natural balance has been disrupted. Most deer now live in areas where there are no natural predators. They overpopulate areas and have trouble foraging for food. Disease is passed more rapidly and the health of the deer is negatively affected.Hunters are needed to maintain the health of the herd and keep it at managable numbers.

Not all people are selfish... our forests are bigger today then they were 100 years ago. Though its not perfect, lakes and air quality have improved much since the industrial age started. Animals close to extinction or threatened are making a comeback in many areas. (Grizzlies, wolves (although minnesota- where I'm from, has always had a large population of wolves) bald eagles, elephants, pelicans, buffalo, alligators, crocodiles,coyotes(where I live) many types of whales are flourishing....etc... Yes, there are still those that are extremely threatened- like tigers and the threat many australian animals face because of non-native animals wreaking havoc in an environment they don't belong.

Plenty of animals also flourish in urban areas-- such as deer, raccoons, skunks and such. They live quite easily in large cities and may even populate an area so much they become nusiances. So yes, While I do agree people can really mess things up-- they can also fix things and have. Like I said before-- many of the positive changes made have been because of people who hunt and fish. They are not out to destroy nature and all the animals-- but are very keen on preserving it and generally have a much better understanding about how to do it and how it all works then someone who just has this idealized image of people and animals all living in perfect harmony.

As to fox hunting... I do have to admit I don't really understand it. It really doesn't seem very sporting to me and even seems a bit cruel-- though the riders sure do look spiffy in their uniforms!

i agree...i think there's no such thing as living 'in harmony' with nature....there's always tension b/w the hunter...&...hunted....whether its b/w animals...or... humans...what we can learn alot from aboriginal plp...&...some of the primitive tribes around the world...is that living with nature...is more about 'co-existance' where humans need 2 learn their own limitation...&...how much the earth can really give us....as my dad said about the enviro....most resources..whether its what we eat....drink....or use....for man-made things like transportation...are 'non-renewable resources,' where if they go...nothing can replace them....we should still hunt...fish...or whatever...but understand....nature can only sustain our overdoing for so long...where lots of plp only think of...right now...instead of the long term...next gen....&...so on :mellow:

sorry if i'm coming across as enviro freak...or what plp call...tree huggers :laugh: but...i think whatever progress we make...is somehow short change...with new admin...new gov'...new policy...to profit private corps...who's bottom line is almighty $$$...for the short term...not long term benefit :shrug:

Good points! :) :wavey:

I think we can learn a lot from aboriginal people and "primitive" tribes as well. (But I must say, as much as I enjoy "getting back to nature" I have no desire to give up my modern  comforts...heating, airconditioning, microwaves, computers....etc.... :P)

It is important to be good stewards of the earth and environment. This planet is home, and we don't have anywhere else to go yet! I don't entirely agree that most of what we use is non-renewable. Food is a renewable source through farming and ranching--- even fish are being farmed in many areas for food, and lakes are re-stocked from fisheries. Trees are even being farmed now--those who make a profit from lumber, do look at the long term, as if all the trees are gone-- theres no profit for them. Fast growing poplar trees are often used in commercial tree farming.

Hunting on the other hand is regulated. People can't just take as many deer as they want, for example, they have to buy a specific doe or buck license. If the deer population is up, they sell more and may extend the season. If its down, they sell less and may limit the season. As it is-- where I am from, most hunters only hunt one of 2 weekend. Bow hunters may hunt for longer. There is great sensitivity towards how many deer may be taken.

Water can be a concern-- without it, the rest don't matter. People should be more aware of water wastage-- though we aren't in a crisis or anything. (especially here in Minnesota where in some places, you can hardly go out the door without tripping into a lake.)

I don't think your an enviro-freak hippie-cyndi-- you raise some valid concerns. I just want to make clear that most hunters are concerned about the environment as well-- and sometimes even more then most people. They usually take a pro-active stance about protecting and manageing it, where so many other people just pay lip service. (I'm not saying thats you-- so don't get me wrong! :flowers:)

I'm concerned about many issues too-- I just try to keep a balanced outlook and not get too parnoid. A lot of enviro groups I think, tend to exaggerate things into major crisis' in order to receive funding dollars or to influence people towards their vision of how things should be. There are people who would like to erode and completely stop anything they see as exploitive or cruel to animals such as fishing, farming, hunting, rodeos and profit of any kind, such as milk, eggs, butter and such. I know some of this is extreme-- but it always starts small and then expands. (Ask the smokers about that one) and of course its always a worthy cause. I do believe that animals should be treated humanely-- I have a huge problem with factory farms and believe those animals are many times not humanely treated at all.

I'm concerned about human waste- both biological, and garbage. Yes, there is much to be aware of-- but not to the point some people take it.

Good points all and a great topic of discussion---- though it may be a bit off-topic, it been thoroughly enjoyed! :D

Double post---- we really need an edit button for our posts- or else I need to start reading mine a bit more carefully before posting! Horrible, horrible grammar and spelling!

I was upset when the fox hunting was banned. I worked at the House of Commons for a bit and I knew the people who 'broke' in the the Parl. in England. IT is an age old sport and it should have not been banned.

So has anyone ever been hunting on this board? :shrug:
If yes, I would be very interested in a first hand report of how it worked and whether it is really as bloody as people say. :hmm:

By the way, Otis was very ambitious to stop the ban but wasn't successful. But he is still huntign isn't he? What leagal actions could be tanken against him??  :mellow:

Everyone on this board hunts wombats regularly  :angel:

 :lmao: That was a good one cassi

Banning fox hunting should be the equivalent to banning hunting.

I think everything has it's season, there should be time sit put aside for fox hunting in the UK like in America. I'm a vegetarian and I live in the South, my great uncle lives in the Northern South and he has a fox hunt once a year, and it is great fun, well it was great fun. Until last year I thought my family didn't kill the foxes, but this summer my oldest brother let it slip out that my family has two foxes- the party would split up and half would go with me ( the side that didn't kill the fox) and the other half would go with my uncle and my brothers (they killed the fox).

Fox hunts are great fun and it's tradition, you are able to spend time with family and friends and business associate, in a relaxed  atmosphere. Everyone looks so nice, I love it, I ride Hunt and Side Saddle, and I get to ride side saddle and I look ridiculously good, but staying on topic.

It's tradition like a turkey during the holidays, I eat tofukey (tofu turkey) while the rest of my family eat a dead animal, but I don't think the government should ban meat, each person must come to their own enlightenment, and before anyone mentions eating is different, humans can survive without meat and now there are wonderful meatlike food available.

That's a hard question.
As for the justification of hunting in terms of population control, lots of species either died out OR overpopulated long before people were around to interfere or intervene one way or another.
Aerosol cans didn't cause the Ice Age, so I'd imagine Mother Nature has her own funny way of taking care of things eventually.

The same people who hunt the fox and terrify it before it dies might have also driven to the meet sitting on leather upholstery in their cars. Cows, according to Temple Grandin, DO feel immense fear before they're slaughtered. What's the difference? What if the hunters ate chicken fetuses and bacon for breakfast? Should the government put and end to that too? After all, it probably terrified the baby chickens mother.

I know a few people who won't eat pig because "pigs are intelligent" but will happily eat turkey. That is supreme arrogance imo. Who gets the final say on who's smart and viable and who isn't then?

Personally, I wouldn't find hunting or any other blood sport fun but I don't think it's my right to pass judgement as I am a deeply imperfect being myself. I've known other vegetarians who wouldn't hurt an animal but have no problem beating their kids. I think things like this are best left up for the individual to wrestle with in their own conscience.JMO.

Quote from: cassidydanielle on August 27, 2006, 03:33:53 PM
Everyone on this board hunts wombats regularly  :angel:

Now..just to get Harry to hunt me :unsure:

Am I understanding this right???....the fox doen't die in the hunt.... :hmm:

Why should it be outlawed if the fox doesn't die  :unsure:......is it just because the fox is scared?  :blink:

The process of the dogs killing the fox is outlawed....as is the killing the fox..I think ...That popstar from the 80's had a son who was charged after he was seen hitting a couple of foxes to kill them.   :shrug: eh....I can't remember what his name is......Perry ...Ferry..that's it's Ferry..Someone Ferry :blink:

Otis.

Quote from: buffym on October 02, 2006, 11:56:04 PM
, each person must come to their own enlightenment, and before anyone mentions eating is different, humans can survive without meat and now there are wonderful meatlike food available.

Survive yes-- but thrive? Not necessarily. A diet that works for one person may not work for another. Some people who try to adopt a vegetarian diet experience serious deficiencies and may suffer serious physical problems as well. A vegetarian diet that works very well for one person, may cause serious health risks for another. The version of vegetarian diet can have an effect as well-- not all vegetarians are the same-- some will still eat fish-- while others think the occasional chicken is ok-- and some will consume some animals products like butter, milk and eggs-- while others won't eat anything from an animal. Some (vegans) won't use any products that are related to animals.

You also can face deficiency problems when forcing developing children to become vegetarian as well. Protein-- specifically ANIMAL l protein-- is very important in brain function and developement and denying children that may be detrimental to their brains development. Notice I said may-- there are no absolutes here. What works for one person- will not work for another. (Depending on what you believe about human development-- scientists believe that it was when humans began consuming more animal protein foods that their brains began to develop more in a more complex way and what allowing people to make so many advances in such a short period of time)

Even if every person in the world became a vegetarian (not happening!)-- animals would still be slaughtered to feed our pets. It is the highest form of cruelty to force a carnivourous animal- such as dogs and especially cats-- to go against what is in their nature. They are meant to eat meat, and should eat meat. People need a lot of protein as well- and while it is possible to get protein elsewhere, it can be difficult to get in what is needed on a vegetarian diet-- especially for men whos protein needs are much higher then womens.

I respect that some people choose to be vegetarian-- and thats perfectly fine-- but I don't like it when a vegetarian has an "i'm enlightened and you're not" superior attitude. I'm not saying thats what you feel! :flowers: In fact, I don't think thats what you meant at all-- but when you mentioned enlightenment, thats what it made me think of. While you may not hold that attitude-- there are plenty that do.( My favorite is when someone rails and hollers about people eating meat and in the meantime, they are wearing leather shoes or a leather jacket!)

Ok- just had to weigh in on the vegitarian issue. A bit off topic-- but it does tie in. :P

Oh, wow, Firefly, excellent post and very good points.
What is good for one is not necessarily good for another.
Agree with you about children not eating meat -- it does seem they need protein. Have known too many vegatarian young ones personally with anemia and learning difficulties. Don't know the statistics, though.

I have one daughter who loves meat and another who doesn't like it so much so I supplement her diet with Fish Oil and that has seemed to help her concentration in school.

Also, I think our nutritional needs change over the course of a lifetime.

I tend to prefer the taste of vegan dishes now but loved the taste of meet 'til my teens.

Do  believe  that adopting a holier than thou attitude is wrong and think tolerance wins the day.

Quote from: losarboles on August 05, 2006, 08:20:34 PM
I was upset when the fox hunting was banned. I worked at the House of Commons for a bit and I knew the people who 'broke' in the the Parl. in England. IT is an age old sport and it should have not been banned.

How is riping a living thing up while it's alive a sport? It's sick, esp. when ppl take their children with them.  :notamused:  :hissyfit: :hissyfit: :hissyfit:

Good post right back at you dizzylizzy! :thumbsup:

I like how you deal with your children-- you work with them on their diets. The fish oil is a great idea!

I'm a meat eater-- but I love plenty of vegetarian dishes. I have several vegetarian cook books-- some of the recipes are just so flavorful and creative. I even like tofu on occasion. Some of the meat substitutes are pretty good too. The chicken one tastes very good-- however-- a meatless burger (or hotdog) NEVER tastes as good to me a a big old patty of ground beef! Yum.

"How is riping a living thing up while it's alive a sport? It's sick, esp. when ppl take their children with them. " 

Have you ever been to a seafood restarant or a Japanese restarant where you picked the fish or lobster you got to eat? It is just like that. Fox hunting was unfairly banned because it is a form of entertainment like going to a greyhound park or horse racing. What happens to greyhounds or horses - anyone uses glue? Fox hunting is like hunting if hunting wasn't banned than why should a derivative of hunting be banned. Furthermore, in the UK there is a continuation of other sports where animals are killed like Falconry. People use Owls or Falcons to hunt smaller birds and rabbits and that can be as brutal as fox hunting.
   

Quote from: buffym on October 15, 2006, 09:28:00 PM
"How is riping a living thing up while it's alive a sport? It's sick, esp. when ppl take their children with them. " 

Have you ever been to a seafood restarant or a Japanese restarant where you picked the fish or lobster you got to eat? It is just like that.

No  :notamused:

I loathe the fox. It's an intorduced species here and therfore is causing the native animal popluation loads of trouble. Whilst I don't see the "sport" of foxhunting as really a sport, I do think there is a tradition to it.

That said, there are more humane ways of ridding the country of the fox popluation....we have quotas where people get paid to trap and kill the animals.