Former monarchies historic discussion: France, Germany, Russia etc..

[drezzle]

Thank You kindly Hale.   It's so exciting get a response in this favorite thread of mine.   :banana:  :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

The official line finally settled on that same day finally became suicide -- but for the first few hours, everyone assumed it was a double murder.   And that changed to the story that Vetsera had poisoned Rudolf and then killed herself.   Then it changed to apoplexy and then heart attack.  It was at this point Emperor Franz Joseph sent out all his announcements of the death.   However later on the family physician Dr. Weiderhofer convinced FJ that the heart attack explanation would never work.  So they settled on suicide.  The presence of Mary Vetsera was denied and covered up for a long time -- don't remember how long -- but eventually the official position was that Rudolf killed Vetsera, and then himself several hours later.  

Then the autopsy physicians had to lie and say Rudolf's brain anatomy showed he was totally insane so that the Catholic Church would allow a church burial for Rudolf.  More modern medicine knows that it's impossible to measure insanity by brain anatomy.  

The official investigation was started and finished the same day of the early morning deaths.  Unfortunately the documents from this investigation never made it into the proper national archives.  Instead the Emperor had his friend from childhood, Prime Minister Taaffe, take charge of these documents with the understanding that they would never see the light of day, and to this day they have not been seen.  It was falsely told that the documents were destroyed in a fire in the prime minister's study.   However, just recently, I came across a book that tells a shocking story of what was actually in these papers.   This is the book A Habsburg Tragedy by Judith Listowel published in 1978.  This follows the path took by these documents from Prime Minister Eduard Taaffe, to his eldest son and heir, Henric Taaffe, and then to his eldest son and heir, Edward Taaffe.  Unfortunately Edward Taaffe died unexpectedly without any heirs so the documents disappeared with him in some unknown location.  However, his close friend, cousin and heir, Group Captain Rudolph Taaffe, who lived with him for some time, told the author what was in the papers.  And it most certainly is shocking and most bizarre.  

But more on that later, it's too late now.    ;)

[Hale]

drezzle, usually government papers are in triplicate.  Especially that era.  If it is such a controversial subject, I'm surprised they haven't been discovered.  Although, having said that, things did move around during the World War II.

[drezzle]

It is frustrating that no solid conclusions can be drawn after so many years.  There was so much deliberate misinformation and secrecy -- that the real story is difficult, but not impossible to find.  I believe the truth is out there now, but so many want to hang on to the romantic drama of a suicide for lost love.  However the interest in this topic is still so extreme that some grave robbers dug up Vetsera's body for purposes of an autopsy to get some answers.  However, her family refused to allow any DNA tests.

It would be so easy to put rest to the rumors by a DNA test/genuine autopsy on Rudolf's body, but of course that is strictly forbidden by........the Hapsburgs -- both his direct descendants and the current head of the Hapsburgs.  The reasons for their resistance are not clear -- especially since there was not any substantial wealth or position left today.

Here's a legend folklore that suggests what really might have happened to Rudolf, and possibly where the idea might have originated:

The mysterious death of Alexander I of Russia:

It is the death of Alexander the First and his wife (of all Russian Tsars) that is shrouded in mystery to this day. According to an official version, the Emperor's body was taken from Taganrog to St. Petersburg and buried with full state honours in the Peter and Paul Fortress there. But a while later witnesses began to emerge of the events in Taganrog claiming that in the coffin they had seen another man's body, not that of Alexander the First. The man greatly resembled Alexander and had died several days before Alexander did. That man's body was placed in the coffin, which was never allowed to be opened ever after. Then it stands to reason to ask where Alexander's body was, or did he not die at all? Besides, the sentry who guarded the Emperor's home in Taganrog on that day claimed that he saw a tall man sneak out of the house via the backdoor and quickly walk away. The sentry hailed him, but the man did not respond. But the soldier claimed that he at once recognized the man as Alexander the First. He was quick to report this to his chief, but the officer on duty laughed the report out of court, saying that the sentry must have gone mad, since the Emperor was about to die.  

http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/08/10/15211085.html

[Hale]

Actually drezzle, seeing that this moment in history is of such great interest to you I wonder have you ever sought to see what is held within your own countries records?

We in England know that historical records of correspondence and government papers are held within the Public Records Office at Kew.  I don't know what the American equivalent would be.  My suggestion isn't as far fetched as it may appear because Austria and Germany were both on the same side during WW1, consequently when the USA entered that war then they would have set about accumulating their own intelligence.  Obviously this was an era before the existence of the FBI, so I'm not sure which agency would have gathered this kind of  intelligence.  Would the Library of Congress have this stuff?  Where do they keep public records in the Sates?

[drezzle]

Great idea Hale.   The National Security Archive and The National Archives might be good.  No doubt there are people far more adept at these searches than me who have scoured all available information and published their findings.  For example, someone discovered the real name of R anonymous who wrote "He Did Not Die at Mayerling", and also took the time to interview his neighbors and colleagues.  He was a patent lawyer in the USA and everyone who knew him said he was sane and level headed / low key.  

Another book reported how a famous American Civil War General, James Longstreet, represented the US at Rudolf's and Stephanie's wedding and remained on friendly terms with Rudolf and was then hired by the emperor to track down Rudolf's son after the Mayerling tragedy.  General Longstreet was joined in his efforts by another civil war general -- Cassius Marcellus Clay -- who was appointed by Abraham Lincoln to the Russian court where he remained for 8 years and became close friends of the Czar and through that connection became involved with Rudolf and his American son.  Much of this information came from the State Historical Society of Missouri.

There's already a massive amount of information out there that has been published, unfortunately much of it contradictory.  What I'm most interested in is getting to the original/earliest source to see from where the contradiction comes.  The best sources I like are Embassy reports at the time, or letters from notables at the time stating their first hand knowledge, such as from Edward VII, then Prince of Wales and a great friend of Rudolf or from the Papal Nuncio.  Also information directly from family members is good.  Another good book was written in 1914 by Rudolf's private secretary, and has received scant attention.  

The biggest problem is that Franz Joseph was so determined the facts of the case would remain forever hidden with censorship and lack of documentation that this only invited a lot of speculation.  A story would start, it would be picked up in a movie, another book written using the same information with some added embellishments -- and it snowballed from there, and takes on a life of its own that probably has nothing to do with the truth, and paints Rudolf in a most unflattering light.  

[Hale]

The National Security Archive and The National Archives

So that's what you call your public records office.  Thanks.

Well drezzle, you've got me curious now.  Next time I go shopping I'm going to try and get the film Mayerling.  Okay, it may not be an accurate portrayl, but its a start.

[drezzle]

Have at it Hale ;)   I was certainly impressed with the Mayerling movie as a child.  It would be hard for me to watch it now though, not so much that it is probably inaccurate, but  how the 3 main Mayerling movies completely fail to capture the personality of Rudolf in the main actors.  With all the contradictions and misinformation, there is one thing everyone seems to agree on:  Rudolf was a real charmer -- the most beguiling of personalities, a beautiful personality, magnificent and charismatic.  At the same time, he displayed in all his photos, a certain detachment or spectral gaze -- very low key.  It was a very similar look to that of Edward VII which might come from too many long hours of official engagements over too many years?  By contrast, all 3 actors portraying Rudolf in the Mayerling films over-acted, they were intense and overly dramatic-- none showed the smooth/calm charm of Rudolf -- their emotions were all too obvious, but then I guess that's what actors do.   :D

Here's how Rudolf's sister-in-law (Stephanie's sister Louise) described him:  

"He was more than beautiful.  He was enchanting.  Behind his fragile appearance lay reserves of strength and energy.  He reminded one of a racehorse;  he had its temperament, breeding and caprice.  His will-power was only equaled by his sensibility.  His shining brown eyes seemed to change their very colour and shape as often as the expression of his face altered...................like his mother, the Empress Elizabeth, he had a way of talking that held everybody".......... from My Life and History by Berta Szeps.  He even charmed old Queen Victoria who extended him the rare invitation to stay with her at Osborne.  The sole person who saw no charm (or good) in Rudolf was his wife Stephanie, and this was noted from the time of their engagement.  

The other point of general agreement on Rudolf was that he was brilliant in many areas and had an outstanding gift for expressing himself in both writing and speech.   He knew several languages flawlessly -- fluent to the point of no discernible accent -- and he was highly educated in natural sciences, economics, and military strategy but his real passion was politics which he lived and breathed.  He was idealistic, earnest and loyal, and the people loved him.  He was a people's prince.   All other areas were and are open to much disagreement and contradictions.

http://i49.tinypic.com/sqhw6q.jpg

[Hale]

Drezzle,  :thankyou: very much for sharing all this with me.   :notworthy:   :princess:

[drezzle]

Crown Prince Rudolf would have been 152 years old yesterday if he had lived.  He might have died at Mayerling at age 30, or perhaps according to one book, he didn't die until sometime around 1914 which would have put him in his mid-fifties.  

One of the best sources of what really happened comes from the book by Judith, Countess of Listowel called "A Habsburg Tragedy" written in 1978.   Her family was Hungarian aristocrats and her maternal grandfather knew Rudolf as he was a member of the Hungarian Upper House and of the delegation to Austria.  

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/obituaries/article852684.ece

Her information for what happened came from an heir of the prime minister at the time, Eduard Taaffe, a bitter enemy of Rudolf.  As Prime Minister, and keeper of the papers related to the short investigation into the death, he would be the most likely person to know what really happened -- he might have even been party to it.

So what is this truth that was far worse than any of the versions as Emperor Franz Joseph said at the opening of the Mayerling convent?  As confirmed by both the grandson of Prime Minister Taaffe and by a direct descendent of Crown Prince Rudolf, as well as confirming the contemporary theories of what happened by Papal Nuncio Galimberti and German ambassador Prince Henrich VII Reuss, this is what they believed happened:

"Ten soldiers  of Archduke Albert's (Albrecht -- Emperor FJ's uncle and head of the Austria-Hungarian military) Roll Commandos were dispatched to Mayerling.  The Roll Commando were specially trained troops of the Austrian Army kept ready to carry out special orders at any time and in any place.  The detachment, two of whom were experienced sharpshooters, were hidden in the garden of the Hunting Lodge.  They were given explicit orders that if the Crown Prince had not taken his own life by 6:30am, they were to shoot him.  Rudolf was unable to carry out his desperate intention and accordingly at about 7 am, the two Roll Commando sharpshooters entered his room through the window and shot him."

This version certainly covers all the angles since there is good evidence that Rudolf intended suicide, and there is also good evidence that it was a murder -- and the two together, with the official denial of one part of the tragedy would go far to explain the confusion.

It's not difficult to imagine that Archduke Albrecht could be responsible for this.  He was a man not know for being amiable.  Albrecht had become a bitter enemy of Rudolf who described him as "........really deplorably nervous and could leave nothing and nobody in peace for a moment................and he delights in nosing about, picking quarrels, in intriguing and doing harm for he is malicious".  
 
http://www.austro-hungarian-army.co.uk/biog/erzalbrecht.html

Another photo of Archduke Albrecht:

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/pejiineznflslgsqctxh.jpg

Albrecht was a reactionary, ultra-conservative, cold, ruthless and there was a wrong way to do things and his way.  He could not tolerate either Archduke Johann Salvator (who renounced his titles and disappeared as John Orth after Mayerling) or the Crown Prince.   For years Salvator had been taunting the old Albrecht and agitating him to the breaking point since Salvator had few restraints on his behavior.   Here's a photo of Archduke Johann Salvator and notice that Habsburg jaw in both Albrecht and Salvator.

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/wwen0q9alchnh5wjoq2.jpg

The direct descendents of Archduke Albrecht became the Dukes of Württemberg and the Princely family of Liechtenstein.

[Scarlet Flowers]

You gals have so much knowledge.

[drezzle]

Thanks Scarlet, but it's all a mirage -- especially when it comes to what happened at Mayerling.  

Anyway, how does Mary fit into the above scenario?  Lady Paget, wife of the British Ambassador to Austria at the time, asked the same question:   "Why did they have to kill the girl too?"

My best guess is that Mary showed up unexpectedly -- and she had a Love-To-Die-For on the brain, so it is reasonable to think she killed herself -- hours before Rudolf was killed.  Or maybe they were both murdered at the same time?  

There used to be a custom in the Austrian army that if a soldier was found guilty of some grievous offense, he was visited by a couple officers, given a pistol and told to do the honorable thing.  If he didn't, then someone else would do it for him.  This kind of scenario would explain the suicide letters Rudolf wrote where he said something like ~~ I don't want to die, but I have to.  It's the honorable thing to do~~.  Now it's a sure thing that if Rudolf was worrying about doing the honorable thing to save his name, he most certainly would not have wanted to be found dead in bed with a nude dead mistress next to him.  The 2 possibilities are mutually exclusive.  I've come to the conclusion that the whole spiel about Rudolf wanting someone to die with him was just spin designed to further assassinate his character.

For example, consider the alleged claims by Mitzi Casper (Rudolf's long-term mistress) that Rudolf had asked her to die in a suicide pact with him.  She apparently reported this to the local police, who took down no documentation and did nothing about it.   (Mitzi never talked, but she was well provided for until she died.)  Now to get a better idea of how silly this claim is, try to imagine today's Prince Charles asking Camilla to join him in a suicide pact since the fallout from the War of the Wales was getting too messy.   Would anyone here expect Camilla to go to the local police and report that Charles was thinking about suicide?   Haha, I do not think that would have been her response, or the response of any woman in that position.   There were plenty of other people who were older and did care about Rudolf that Mitzi could have, by all reasons been expected to go to first, such as Latour or Szeps?  

While the above scenario does explain many of the contradictions and dismisses some of the strange conclusions made from essentially nothing, it still fails to take into account some other possibilities that also come from excellent sources.   For example, what about Empress Zita's (last empress of Austria - her husband was the successor to Emperor Franz Joseph) claim that it was Georges Clemenceau of France that had Rudolf killed.   Now it is known that it was Crown Prince Rudolf's sister Gisele who told Zita that, so actually, that is also a good source that cannot be easily dismissed.................more on that later.  

Finally I'll close this post with a photo of the lovely Crown Princess Stephanie, who I suspect might have been the source of much of the really awful beliefs commonly accepted about her husband, Rudolf today:

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/ymp11ud4ax1naf5zfci.jpg

[Hale]

Isn't it possible that the girl was murdered also because she may have been a witness?

[amabel]

Isn't it possible that the girl was murdered also because she may have been a witness?

isn't it far more likely that it was a double suicide....

[drezzle]

Reasonable questions Hale and Amabel.  In hindsight, if this is true, they obviously didn't want any witnesses -- but then again, there were several other people at the hunting lodge that morning, so anyone of them could have been a potential witness.  There is evidence, early on from 3 different sources coming from 3 different points of view that strongly suggest Mary Vetsera was much more than a ditzy fashion plate infatuated with the prince.  Many, including his father, Franz Joseph, believed Rudolf became involved (unwittingly?) in some conspiracy for a military coup to replace his father, and Vetsera was actually involved in this somehow or a co-conspirator -- who played a part important enough to sign her own death warrant.

Amabel, on the question of was it a double suicide or murder suicide, I would tend towards double suicide also given the supposed nature of Vetsera in some of her letters.  However, Loschek, the closest in time and space to the event, and the court physician, Weiderhofer, who arrived on the scene soon after both claimed there was no question that Rudolf had first killed Vetsera and then himself.  But how could this have been obvious?   No forensics was ever done, and even then fingerprints were just coming into use.  I've watched enough TV (some serious documentaries ;)) to know how easy it is to stage a murder to look like a suicide.  All official documents as to their reasons disappeared along with the rest into Taaffe's lair.

There's another reason I don't trust Loschek's (Rudolf's long-term valet) account.  He said he was pounding on both doors to the bedroom trying to wake up Rudolf for a long time (~hour or so) and finally had to break down the door with an ax.  Rudolf's hunting companion, Josel Hoyos, also confirmed this, but I think they both had memory lapses.  The reason is because Rudolf's bedroom was on the ground floor with big easily accessible windows.  It makes no sense and would be the little detail that would have Columbo scratching his head and saying ~~ oh, one more thing Sir, may I please.................................

Floorplan of ground floor of Mayerling -- his bedroom on upper left:
http://www.imageshugger.com/images/72awlkd7i9wvu3xbrcb.jpg

The ground floor windows look easily accessible:
http://www.imageshugger.com/images/3y5d3iuy05vjn5qxye.jpg

[amabel]

well from what I've read, it seems to me  that suicide was the most likely scenario.  IIRC Rudolph had asked other women to join him in a suicide pact, which does not suggest that he was particularly sane... and IIRC even Judit ht Listowel says that there was no doubt that Rud was intending to kill himself.  He may have said that  he had to die to avoid shame, but it seems to me that he wasn't' sane, so he may have reasoned ( if he reasoned at all) that if he was found dead in bed with a woman, the IF would cover up.. as they tried to do.
The Prince of Wales says in a letter to Q Vic that it seemed to him that it was suicide and he was shocked at it, but that perhaps Rudolph was insane due to head injuries....
As for Mitzi Caspar again it is some time since I read about Rudolph, I thought that the police did file a report and it went to Taafe, the Prime minister....

[drezzle]

That's true Amabel, there's some good evidence for suicide.  There's also some good evidence for something else having happened.  Incidentally for some unknown reason, Vienna was the suicide capital of the world back then and it still has a high suicide rate despite being named #1 world wide in quality of living:

Despite its relatively high suicide rate, Vienna is one of the world's most attractive cities in which to live — placed sixth in the world, according to a survey provided by Vienna Tourist Board.

Number one worldwide in quality of living (followed by Zurich and Geneva,) according to Mercer's Quality of Living Survey (April 2009), Vienna mainly attracts...............................

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=30685

Rudolf would have been pleased to know about the Vienna of today since back then, he was quite dismayed about the backward condition of Vienna in terms of modern conveniences, such as plumbing and electricity.

[amabel]

That's true Amabel, there's some good evidence for suicide.  There's also some good evidence for something else having happened.  Incidentally for some unknown reason, Vienna was the suicide capital of the world back then and it still has a high suicide rate despite being named #1 world wide in quality of living:

[quoteNumber one worldwide in quality of living (followed by Zurich and Geneva,) according to Mercer’s Quality of Living Survey (April 2009), Vienna mainly attracts...............................

http://www.sptimes.ru/index.php?action_id=2&story_id=30685

[/quote]

I rather thought that Stephanie was the one who was annoyed at the lack of cofmrots in Laxenburg and other palaces...
but having read a little of Judith Listowel's book it seems that she definitely believes that Rudolph intended to commit suicide.. that he asked not only a few women but also some male friends to join him in suicide - and that he was certianly sufferign from serious depressoin and mental problems due to his having contracted gonorhea and syphilis
and that if he was killed it was possibly because (I haven't Read all the book yet but from a quick look) he DID intend to kill himself and lost his nerve and the PM had a group of sharp shooters who finished him off...

[drezzle]

"The life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" by VON MITIS

This is the next book on my reading list -- partly because it was suppose to be the earliest comprehensive book that was published -- 1930, and also to see what he had to say about Rudolph's health and state of mind without the influence of Stephanie's book which was published ~ 1934 I believe, and from which too many subsequent authors merely parrot.  Many of the health and insane rumors came from Stephanie herself, or from her claims and letters, later used by her nephew-in-law Carl Lonyay in his book about Crown Prince Rudolf, and for various reasons, I doubt the credibility of Stephanie who was bitter to the point of being delusional.  Moreover, she was one of those unfortunate people who felt the only way she could boost her own esteem or social rating was to tear down and put down any and all others, including her own husband.

It must be remembered that Rudolf's suicide (if it was that) initially came as a total shock to all who knew him (with the sole exception of Stephanie's claims), and only after did the stories then change to fit the circumstances of the tragedy.

[amabel]

"The life of the Crown Prince Rudolph of Habsburg, with letters and documents found among his effects" by VON MITIS

of Stephanie's book which was published ~ 1934 I believe, and from which too many subsequent authors merely parrot.  Many of the health and insane rumors came from Stephanie herself, or from her claims and letters, later used by her nephew-in-law Carl Lonyay in his book about Crown Prince Rudolf,

So do you regard Judith Listowel as "merely parrotting" Stephanie's claims? AFAICS her book is a fairly scholarly work and she's not very sympathetic to Stephanie.

AFAICR. Listowel repeatedly mentions things like Rudolph's severe depression, his sexually transmitted diseases which possibly affected his brain,  his mentioning suicide and wanting to have a suicide pact with both male friends and mistresses... his volatility...
and the Prince of Wales (Edw VII) in his letter to Q Victoria says that he understood that it was suicide and that he was shocked because he thouhth that Rud was a clever man, but that R had had a head injury which might  have affected his brain and caused him to become depressed and suicidal (I suspect that EDw also knew of R's STDs....) 

Of course people were shocked by R's suicide... it is not only a mortal sin in the eyes of the Catholic church but also a huge scandal for an Imperail archduke ot do it esp when it also invovled killing his mistress...

[amabel]

I made a small mistake in the above post, I was quoting from Franz Lindman?'s book on Mayerling and accidentally I mixed up two letters written about the tragedy... one was by Edward VII, where he did say that he had heard it was suicide.. the other, from Prince Philip of Coburg referred to R's head injury.....AFAICS Edward didn't refer to R's head injury....

[drezzle]

So do you regard Judith Listowel as "merely parrotting" Stephanie's claims? AFAICS her book is a fairly scholarly work and she's not very sympathetic to Stephanie.

AFAICR. Listowel repeatedly mentions things like Rudolph's severe depression, his sexually transmitted diseases which possibly affected his brain,  his mentioning suicide and wanting to have a suicide pact with both male friends and mistresses... his volatility...

I agree, the book by Judith Listowel was for the most part scholarly and well documented.  However, she like all the others, accept one piece of evidence as the last word and ignore all others, and my question is how valid is that distinction?  For example most of the scholars have discounted everything by Marie Larisch and by Princess Louise of Coburg -- partly because later motives proved questionable.  But that doesn't mean every single thing they wrote needs to be discounted, especially when there is no known motive for some of the statements.  The same, only in reverse, should also be applied to Crown Princess Stephanie, or any other author speaking from their personal experience, IOW, it's a mistake to assume every single word is the absolute unvarnished truth.  For example, Stephanie was so competitive, she was the ultimate "me too" kind of person -- and it's a common trait in certain people.  So naturally I'd expect Stephanie to say "me too" when she heard that Rudolf had asked his long-time mistress to join him in a suicide pact.

I thought Prince Philip of Coburg (brother of Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria)  never said another known thing about Mayerling since he was so traumatized by it?   I can't find any book about the event by a Franz Lindman?

Unfortunately, gonorrhea was very common back then among many, because there was no treatment for it, but it usually didn't lead to sterility or insanity.  Listowel also states that was the reason for the breakdown of the marriage between Franz Joseph and Sisi and her usual absence from Austria -- he gave her gonorrhea!

[amabel]

So do you regard Judith Listowel as "merely parrotting" Stephanie's claims? AFAICS her book is a fairly scholarly work and she's not very sympathetic to Stephanie.

AFAICR. Listowel repeatedly mentions things like Rudolph's severe depression, his sexually transmitted diseases which possibly affected his brain,  his mentioning suicide and wanting to have a suicide pact with both male friends and mistresses... his volatility...

I  For example most of the scholars have discounted everything by Marie Larisch and by Princess Louise of Coburg -- partly because later motives proved questionable.  But that doesn't mean every single thing they wrote needs to be discounted, especially when there is no known motive for some of the statements.  The same, only in reverse, should also be applied to Crown Princess Stephanie, or any other author speaking from their personal experience, IOW, it's a mistake to assume every single word is the absolute unvarnished truth.  For example, Stephanie was so competitive, she was the ultimate "me too" kind of person -- and it's a common trait in certain people.  So naturally I'd expect Stephanie to say "me too" when she heard that Rudolf had asked his long-time mistress to join him in a suicide pact.

I thought Prince Philip of Coburg (brother of Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria)  never said another known thing about Mayerling since he was so traumatized by it?   I can't find any book about the event by a Franz Lindman?

Unfortunately, gonorrhea was very common back then among many, because there was no treatment for it, but it usually didn't lead to sterility or insanity.  Listowel also states that was the reason for the breakdown of the marriage between Franz Joseph and Sisi and her usual absence from Austria -- he gave her gonorrhea!

sorry my mistake there, the book si by Franz Judtmann.. but as I said, Rudolph ddint' just have gonorrhea which he apparently gave to Stephanie, causing her to become infertile.  (so while she' not a lovely person I'd say she has some reasons for her announce with him...) he also had syphilis.  Not to mention the fact that his mother also had mental health issues...
I'm sorry but it seems to me that Listowel's book while she clearly has more sympathy with R than I have, is a pretty good piece of work, and it states that R was depressed, that he had a morbid thing about death, that he clearly intended to kill himself, so I'd believe it....
as for FJ and Elisabeth that has bene mentioned in more than one bio AFAIK that he apparently gave her gonorrhea...

[drezzle]

The evidence is not clear cut on any of those points -- one of the reasons this mystery is so compelling.

So what finally happened between the 'the gravedigger of the Monarchy' as Rudolf referred to his uncle, the Archduke Albrecht, Colonel-in-Chief of the Roll Commando Execution Squad, and Emperor Franz Joseph?  Did FJ suspect what might have happened?  Could FJ have been partly guilty by sin of omission?  Although almost completely blind, Albrecht remained Inspector General until his death in 1895 at the age of 78.  Over a thousand officers attended his State funeral, and the Emperor issued an Order of the Day describing him as the 'ornament and pride' of the army.  However, Archduke Albrecht did have the humiliating experience on 1893 of having to preside when a military commission, set up by Franz Joseph, re-examined Rudolf's drill book and found it so good that it was introduced into the Austrian Army training and used until the Emperor's death in 1916.  Prime Minister Taaffe also resigned in 1893 and died in 1895.

Was Emperor Franz Joseph so ruthless and hard-hearted that he would allow his own son to be murdered as suggested by the activities of those closest to him in policy/decision making, or was this information carefully hidden from him? If it was hidden from him, then why would FJ have agreed to close the investigation into Rudolf's death after less than one day?  Would he not want to know the truth like any normal father?  Or did he know the truth and for whatever reason, thought silence was best?

No matter how many pictures I see of FJ, he always looks like a kind person and incapable of being cold and ruthless to the point he would allow his son to be killed.  Examples of cold and ruthless personification are not hard to find when looking at photos of Bismarck, Churchill, Gladstone and Lenin as follows:

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/oehrj67p7daon4oiwsrc.jpg

Rudolph: The Tragedy Of Mayerling by Carl Lonyay made claims that the Camarilla could run circles around Franz Joseph who was uneducated and not very intelligent.  They made a point of keeping FJ so busy with busy work that he would have no time to interfere in important decisions of running the country.  They gave him piles and piles of papers every day and asked him to make notes of what he thought was important and then to make sure they were properly filed away (and ignored), and the obsessive bureaucrat in the Emperor loved this type of "work".  His other main occupation was designing uniforms for the military and the micro-management of all his extended relatives, who were also almost all kept out of any important or meaningful activity.

However, some hints can be seen regarding the true feelings of Franz Joseph, not only in his insistence that his son's military drills were put into use over the objection of his advisors, but also in his effective block in preventing Cardinal Rompello from becoming pope.  Cardinal Rompello was on his favorite moral hobby horse soon after the death of Rudolf -- making every effort to prevent Rudolf from  having a Christian burial, and clearly, FJ never forgot or forgave this.

In addition I've often wondered if the unforgiving response of FJ to the assassination of his next heir (Franz Ferdinand) was not a delayed reaction to what he wished he could have done following the death of his own son.  When Franz Ferdinand was killed, Austria immediately made extreme demands on Serbia, and surprisingly, Serbia agreed to all the demands, but then the Austrian government  shocked the world by declaring war on Serbia anyway, and so started WWI.  

Another surprising twist to the story, also inspired by Franz Joseph I suspect, is the rumor that it was French Prime Minister Georges Clemenceau who had Rudolf murdered.  This claim came through Empress Zita apparently through Rudolf's sister Gisele.  It's hard to imagine they would make this claim without the approval or knowledge of the Emperor, and it's even harder to imagine there's any truth to it since Rudolf was quite pro-French alliance.   It makes no sense unless it was some red herring used to further confound and bury the tragedy in a mass of confusion.

Franz Joseph died before history found his son to be dissipated, dissolute, immoral, corrupt and weak but powerfully insane.  I'd like to believe that if FJ knew this is how history would judge his son, he would have made some effort to get a better story accepted, and it might have even been more more truthful, even if that truth was worse for someone else.  

[amabel]

I realy dont know what you mean by describing Chruchill Gladstone and Bismarkc as cold and ruthless.... so I think I'll end the discussion

[drezzle]

Here's excerpts from the alleged farewell letters written by the allegedly insane Rudolf:

Dear Stephanie,
...........................................I am going tranquilly to death, which alone can save my good name.  

I embrace you most warmly,
Your loving Rufolf

and

Dear Szogyeny,

I must die, it is the only way in which to leave this world at least like a gentleman.............................be so good as to open my writing desk in Vienna.......................... to deal with the papers in it as laid down in my final wishes -- enclosed herewith.......................

Also to his sister Valerie: "I do not die willingly but........".  In each letter he repeated the same theme -- that he must die.  He did not reveal why except it had to do with saving his honor and good name.

I'm surprised no one has ever picked up on the impossibility of these letters in conjunction with how he was found dead.  Sure it's easy to say, well he had the insane Wittelsbach genes from his mother (and father), and of course if his 2nd cousin (King Ludwig II of Bavaria) was completely insane, then Rudolf must have been too since he was a friend of his, and he must have picked it up (by osmosis), and so nothing he would do could expect to have any reason.  Never mind that this ignores everything that Rudolf was up until the time he died, what's most important is to have high drama with sex, drugs and debauchery.  

From the above theme of Rudolf's suppose farewell letters, only 2 conclusions can be reached.

1)  He did plan on suicide, but he did not plan on the presence of Mary Vetsera or her death.

2)  He never planned on suicide, and those letters were written by someone else who planned to kill him and frame him for a murder/suicide.