Former monarchies historic discussion: France, Germany, Russia etc..

[amabel]

There' doesn't seem to be a thread about this, and I'm kind of interested, Does anyone have theories on what happened.  I have just got a copy of Stephanie's book "I was to be Empress".... but haven't read it yet.  I believe that there is some new evidence that Rudolph's skull was bashed in, so possibly he did not kill himself at all

thoughts?

[Hale]

I dn't know much about this.  Is this the story of the heir to the Hapsburg empire who committed sucide with his lover?

[amabel]

Yes

[amabel]

There are theories about what happened. Did Rudolph kill himself because he was severely depressed.  Suffering from a venereal disease?  why did he want a woman to die with him.  or was he possibly murdered?  because of his (not very) liberal views?  because of too much involvement in politics... 

[drezzle]

Great idea for a thread amabel.   Mayerling has always been a fascinating story since I saw a movie about it as a child.   I'd like to find that movie again.  I'll look up some info later but from what I remember reading more recently, the woman with him was not his lover -- which raised some red flags.  I seem to remember her body was exhumed more recently and bullet holes were found.  What is especially frustrating is that after over 100 years, it's probably too late to know the whole truth now. 

[amabel]

Marie Vertsera?  Unless all the earlier accounts are wrong she was certainly in love with him and probably was his mistress.  Initially it seemed as if Rudolph killed her and then some time later shot himself, but lately (I'd have to look this up) his body was looked at and it seemed as if his head was bashed in.. so he could hardly have done that to himself.....

[drezzle]

"Don't regret Rudolph"  If the Emperor had found these papers, matters would have been infinitely worse.   The crown prince has killed himself but if the Emperor had known all it would have been his duty to have him tried by law and shot as a traitor". 

[/size]

http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?res=9E03E5D8173FE633A25757C0A9639C946296D6CF

This is an interesting account of what happened by one of the participants, Countess Marie Larisch a niece of the Empress.

[drezzle]

And another version: 

Crown Prince Rudolf was educated by the best tutors his father could find, over 50 of them. He was a personal friend of Alfred Brehm with whom he shared passion for natural sciences and whose monumental Thierleben he admired as a child. He wrote scientific articles to leading journals on life sciences. His views were farsighted and were partially realized a century after his death. In personal letters dated July 26, 1882 and December 12, 1886, Crown Prince Rudolf Habsburg describes his view of the Austrian Empire:

The principle of nationalism rests on the most base of human instincts. It is a victory of primitivism over the noble ideals of equality. The national and racial animosities are a step backward. It is characteristic that these principles are most often used by the most divisive elements of our society. As the science is cosmopolitan, so should be the just societies.

http://www.visualstatistics.net/East-West/Mayerling%20Tragedy/Mayerling%20tragedy.htm

[Hale]

drezzle,  it is possible the film you are talking about starred Omar Sharif, Ava Gardner and Catherine Deneuve.

[drezzle]

I'm not sure Hale?  I think it might have been an earlier version of Mayerling as I would have remembered Omar Sharif.  I saw it as one of the old movie classics on TV. 

[Hale]

The film I was talking about was made in the 70's, I think

[amabel]

There is an earlier film made in the 30s or 40s I think but the only one I've seen is the one with Omar Sharif.  its a bit over romantic

[Ladybee]

This is a very interesting, and quite mysterious story. There are at least 3 different movies based on the Mayerling tragedy :
- The secret of Mayerling (1949) with French actor Jean Marais as Rudolfhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040769/
-a German movie Kronprinz Rudolfs letzte Liebe (1956)
-and Mayerling (1968) with Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve

So many different theories on this case! The last Austrian Empress Zita said Rudolf had indeed been assassinated, according to Rudolf's sister Gisela (who told Zita). Another "suicide theory" says Rudolf and Marie Vetsera discovered there were father and daughter, or father and sister, and that'they commited suicide because of their incestual relationship.

[drezzle]

The Empress Zita also said she asked the last emperor what had happened and he said after he died, she could read the papers in the locked desk in his drawer that would give the true story.    After he died, the drawer was opened and found to hold a stack of blank paper. 

Also this must have been the movie:  http://www.answers.com/topic/mayerling-film with Charles Boyer.  It had much better reviews than the one with Omar Sharif. 

[Mike]

-and Mayerling (1968) with Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve

Here's the IMDb website for this version:  http://pro.imdb.com/title/tt0064645/

[drezzle]

The book "He did not die at Meyerling" seemed plausible for several reasons.  It was supposedly written by a son of CP Rudolf, who was very circumspect about giving any information out that might identify himself or his adopted family.  He said he wrote the book to set the record straight and to repair the memory and reputation of his father.  He was in his late 60s when his book was published in 1937 and he claimed absolutely no interest in reclaiming his heritage.

Interestingly someone named Robert Pachmann first filed for recognition as CP Rudolf's legitimate son in 1937, but from the dates, he would have been about 5 years younger than the author (R) of the above book.  Pachmann kept up his fight for recognition for the next ~30 years. 

R's side of the story was that after the semi-coup was overturned, CP Rudolf went to his father to deny any intention of replacing him as emperor, but Franz Joseph was angry still and made Rudolf sign a renunciation of succession for himself and all his children and told him he was not fit to be crown prince.   So Rudolf decided to fake his death and move to another continent.  Rudolf had a close friend who became R's foster father who was only referred to as the doctor, since he was a surgeon and an artist.   The plan was through the doctor's contacts to get a body from the morgue resembling Rudolf, and then the doctor would redo the face using wax molds.  His work was about done at Meyerling when Maria Vetsera showed up unexpectedly and thought Rudolf had been killed and she then started fighting with some of the guards surrounding the procedure and she was accidentally shot in the torso. 

The couple reasons I think there may be some validity to it is the Emperor was beside himself with grief during the funeral, but within a few weeks, he was unusually cheerful.  I don't remember where I read that (not the book) but his quickly recovered cheerful mood was a mystery to many close to him, knowing how much he suffered when his son supposedly killed himself.

The other reason is the disappearance of Rudolf's close friends, including John Orth, at about the same time.  I also think Bratfisch and Larisch moved to South America at about the same time as Rudolf's "death".  Why would all these people suddenly move to the other side of the world when Rudolf died?

Then there's another story where some thought it was Rudolf who showed up in El Salvador in the late 1880's who became the father in ~1898 of an uncle to the wife of Nash, the protaganist in the movie "A Beautiful Mind".  This wife came from a prominant family named Larde' in El Salvador.  http://www.math.dartmouth.edu/~lamperti/Justo_Armas.html

[drezzle]

So here's some more information from  the book "The Mayerling Murder" by Victor Wolfson, with the help of Prince F.J.N. Windisch-Graetz (Rudolf's oldest grandson by his only known legitimate daughter), supports their argument that Rudolf was killed on orders of Otto von Bismarck, who no doubt was as ruthless a man as they make them, because he feared that Rudolf would forge an alliance with France and England against Germany.  If this would have happened, then Germany might have been no more -- so the motive is certainly there.

It's interesting there are a lot of photos of Rudolf looking very cozy with Wilhelm II, the last kaiser.  They were the same age, and they both by all reports were not in the least fond of each other.

For example:  Rudolf on your right:   http://www.imageshugger.com/images/pydwd8bclafxq938qve.jpg
And:  http://www.imageshugger.com/images/sokbsnce7135tmounn9l.jpg

[Hale]

drezzle, I think I've told you before I am not 'up' on non British Royals, but I am curious to know if Rudolph didn't commit sucide then why would anyone want to murder him?  Is this something to do with nationalism, people wanting change within the empire........what?  I'd be interested to read your theories.

[sandy]

This is a very interesting, and quite mysterious story. There are at least 3 different movies based on the Mayerling tragedy :
- The secret of Mayerling (1949) with French actor Jean Marais as Rudolfhttp://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040769/
-a German movie Kronprinz Rudolfs letzte Liebe (1956)
-and Mayerling (1968) with Omar Sharif and Catherine Deneuve

So many different theories on this case! The last Austrian Empress Zita said Rudolf had indeed been assassinated, according to Rudolf's sister Gisela (who told Zita). Another "suicide theory" says Rudolf and Marie Vetsera discovered there were father and daughter, or father and sister, and that'they commited suicide because of their incestual relationship.

There is also a Charles Boyer film from the thirties where he played Rudolf.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0027951/

[drezzle]

drezzle, I think I've told you before I am not 'up' on non British Royals, but I am curious to know if Rudolph didn't commit sucide then why would anyone want to murder him?  Is this something to do with nationalism, people wanting change within the empire........what?  I'd be interested to read your theories.

Hey Hale, thanks for asking!   I'm no expert either in that I've only read several books recently plus a lot of online info -- but that's just for starters.   There was a huge motive for getting Rudolf dead and gone.   He was an outspoken opponent of all that the ancient duel empire held sacred and he was also a determined enemy of Prussia / Germany.   In his memoirs, Bismarck often lamented what a danger Rudolf was to all of his own goals for the German empire, and it was well-known that Bismarck had no compunction about ordering an assassination. 

There are also easy ways to discount all the suicide theories -- the forgeries of Rudolf's handwriting known to be happening long before his death, (so much for suicide notes) and that's for starters.

Another photo:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/12/Rudolf_Kronprinz_1881.jpg

[Hale]

Thanks drezzle.  :princess:

[Kuei Fei]

I remember a biogrpahy about the late Hapsburg empire that Rudolf was into modernization and that the Court stifled him to the point where he went insane and he killed himself with his mistress. His mistress after her death was hidden to the point where it was practically a cover up.

[drezzle]

That is true -- the court/camarilla were into covering up everything about this tragedy as fast as possible.  Not only was Mary Vetsera's body spirited away in the middle of the night under disguise and buried in a secret grave, but they tried their best to cover up the cause or evidence at the death scene.  First it was they were poisoned -- when rumor was too vast to accept that, they decided on apoplexy and then on heart disease -- neither of which would begin to hold ground.  Finally they settled on suicide, then on a double suicide then on murder/suicide.  The investigation into the cause was quickly started with much energy the morning of the deaths, and then concluded before the day's end.  

It was commonly said by most in the know at that time (imperial family, embassies, friends) that the truth was far worse so it was best to settle on suicide and then censor like crazy, forbidding any mention in newspapers or other public means of communication.  Most thought the truth would come out after the death of Emperor Franz Joseph (27 yrs later) but it didn't and now today, over 120 years later, it is still considered an unsolved mystery.  

However, what I found most informative was the response of those who knew what happened -- and they (it seemed every last one) believed that it was best to never speak of the real truth.  This was in a context that suggested they believed it was for the best of all concerned and the most proper response.  Now of course one has to wonder what is worse than someone becoming totally deranged and killing a young girl and then himself several hours later.  To me this is about as bad as it gets.  

So what could be worse than this as the real and more awful truth?   To account for an end to existence, other than suicide, there are 2 possibilities:  murder or disappearing (called "dying without dying" by Rudolf's good friend John Orth who did exactly that soon after the Mayerling occurrence).  So what could be worse, and then again, from whose point of view?  Now if Rudolf staged his own death and disappeared as claimed in the book by his supposed son in "He did not Die at Mayerling", then would that truth be worse than suicide?  What if that was the reason the investigation into the deaths was concluded so quickly -- they realized that Rudolf had skipped the country??!!  Now I could understand how that might make a laughing stock out of Emperor Franz Joseph who had already telegrammed most of the world's heads of state about the death of his beloved son.  Would it be worse to be a laughing stock, or to have ones son commit suicide?   From what I've read about FJ, he'd go for the former as being far worse.  Naturally this would go for double worse if the reason for Rudolf's disappearance was that he had staged a coup against his own father that failed.  Yes, I could understand why the powers that be would find it most fitting to give an official finding of murder/suicide by an insane and dissolute degenerate instead.  Haha, fitting justice.

One other piece of information I happened across that supports the above possibility was when the Prime Minister Taafe met with Rudolf's mentor and good friend Bombelles and Rudolf's doctor -- Weiderhofer and 3 other names I didn't recognize to draw up the official findings and conclusions of the deaths at Mayerling only 2 days after it happened.   At this meeting was also Loschek, Rudolf's devoted valet.  He said there was much levity and laughter at this meeting -- they were all in good cheer.  Now I could understand why Taafe might be laughing since he hated Rudolf and saw him as a dangerous political enemy, but by all accounts, Bombelles and Weiderhofer were devoted to Rudolf, and greatly grieved when they first heard the news.  This was in a book by Count Carl Lonyay, the nephew-in-law and heir of Crown Princes Stephanie's 2nd husband.    

There's another little truth hidden in the book "He did not die at Mayerling".  He did say he would write it with the truths hidden for those who should know since his first priority was to maintain his anonymity which I can understand.   So this was what he wrote, amid the general praise for his claimed father, Rudolf:  "There was a tragedy of Meyerling, but it was not the tragedy history has recorded, -- the supposed death of the Crown Prince Rudolf, Archduke of Austria.  It was a tragedy greater by far than that, for if he had died then, it would have been the end of suffering for him, for his father, the Emperor Francis Joseph, for his mother the beautiful Empress Elizabeth, and for me".   What a chilling and shocking statement that is!!!

However, I've come to the conclusion this book is not what it appears to be for getting at that hidden and far worse truth.  More on that later.  

[drezzle]

I'm afraid I'll be posting mostly to myself in this very exciting thread!   :laugh:

Anyway, here's some more information on Rudolf's supposed son and heir:

http://newspapers.nl.sg/Digitised/Page/straitstimes19661125.1.9.aspx

http://www.imageshugger.com/images/uu5kns52x2hee61dcxum.gif

Here is says that a Viennese court recognized Theodore Rudolf Pachmann as a direct descendant (grandson) of Crown Prince Rudolf.  

Also, another little bit of corroborating evidence:   Here a handwriting expert analyzed a handwritten document where Rudolf wrote about his secret marriage to Princess Maria Antoine of Tuscana (before he met Stephanie) which would have made his marriage to Stephanie illegal in the eyes of the Catholic Church at least.  

http://tinyurl.com/39vak3u

Princess Antoine was originally presented to Rudolf as a suitable bride and he fell madly in love with her but then marriage to her was forbidden when it was found she suffered from tuberculosis and not expected to live long.  However, supposedly, Rudolf married her anyway in secret and fathered a child and she was still alive, at least until the time of his marriage to Stephanie.  

It's too bad no handwriting expert analysis has ever been applied to all the claimed suicide notes written by Rudolf.

[Hale]

Oh dear, sorry drezzle.  Your knowledge of European Royalty never ceases to impress me.   

Just out of curiosity, was the supposed sucide at the time acknowledged as a sucide?  Only if memory serves me well one of the problems with Empreror Joseph he was something of a fanatical Catholic.  Too conservative at a time when people within the Hapsburg empire wanted change.