Giving up the title HRH

LouisFerdinand · October 14, 2019, 11:45:19 PM

Did Queen Elizabeth II and Prince Charles persuade Princess Diana to give up the title Her Royal Highness?

Curryong · October 15, 2019, 12:06:00 AM

No, it was a decision of the Queen's to withdraw the HRH from both her divorced daughters in law. There was a statement put out by Diana during the later divorce negotiations that stated that the Queen insisted that she keep her HRH. That was wishful thinking on Diana's part however, and there was a statement from BP that after the divorce she would no longer be an HRH.

I think that was an incredibly petty move, considering Diana was the mother of an heir to the throne and the spare. She could have kept it until any remarriage IMO, without difficulty. I remember people disapproving at the time of it being done.

amabel · October 15, 2019, 04:54:25 AM

There was some controversy but it was not likely, given Diana's behaviour, that the queen was going to be concilatiatory. IF Diana wanted to leave the RF and get a divorce, why should she have continue to be allowed to be HRH? Diana claimed that she had volunteered to give up her HRH..but the truth was that she had very little hope of doing so.. and she then made a last ditch attempt to keep it...

sandy · October 15, 2019, 03:05:02 PM

Diana's behavior? Charles behavior I think was the big problem. The New York Times said at the time Charles was the one who talked the Queen into not letting Diana keep the HRH.

Diana would be the mother of a King in future. And probably William would have returned the HRH to Diana after his father passed on (if Charles of course did not outlive William).

Diana had legal advisors. She made no "attempt" at anything. She probably had made herself clear to the lawyers that she wanted the HRH.

The royals can be petty at times. I think this was a bad move on the Queen's part. Wallis was entitled to the HRH upon marriage to HRH the Duke Of Windsor but special orders of the King were made to keep her from getting the HRH.

TLLK · October 15, 2019, 03:12:41 PM

Quote from: amabel on October 15, 2019, 04:54:25 AM
There was some controversy but it was not likely, given Diana's behaviour, that the queen was going to be concilatiatory. IF Diana wanted to leave the RF and get a divorce, why should she have continue to be allowed to be HRH? Diana claimed that she had volunteered to give up her HRH..but the truth was that she had very little hope of doing so.. and she then made a last ditch attempt to keep it...

The Panorama interview was the last straw IMHO and that prompted the Queen to tell the Wales that it was time for a divorce.

sandy · October 15, 2019, 03:35:11 PM

She probably knew that Charles would plan a riposte. Charles interview the year before was quite damaging, he caused the Parker Bowles divorce outing Camilla as his mistress. He also admitted he did not love Diana which also was very damaging.

dianab · October 15, 2019, 08:42:13 PM

from memory, i remember diana first announced publicly she didnt want the hrh title, bp confirmed her statement and after that she drew back she wanted the title but courtiers said the queen cant change anything after they confirmed the early diana's statement....

Princess Cassandra · October 16, 2019, 04:37:17 AM

Most of you are more well informed about such matters than I am, but I would think the divorce agreement would have stipulated that she forfeited the HRH. My thinking is that if she received the HRH when she married, she would lose it upon divorcing.

Curryong · October 16, 2019, 04:53:50 AM

Yes, technically that is so. I think that HM used the template of Wallis S actually in her decision. Not because the situations were similar, they weren't, but because of the POV of the RF in 1936, which was 'What if a next marriage looms into view, we don't hear about it and she enters into another Union as an HRH?'

And she had Sarah in view as well, where one divorce followed another and both women had borne children which were close to the throne and in line of succession. Sarah had lost hers and so Diana followed.

Actually, I was talking about this via email to a friend only half an hour ago, and he stated that early in the negotiations the alternative styling of Duchess of Cornwall was suggested for Diana, as a gesture to her unique position as a divorced mother to heir to the throne. I've never heard of that myself, though I can imagine someone like Robert Fellowes suggesting it as a compromise. However it must have been rejected quite early on by one side or the other.

And Diana WAS in a unique position. The loss of an HRH in Britain definitely signals a loss of status. She probably wouldn't have wanted to join the RF on too many occasions but it would have been nice had she been asked if she had lived. It would have been awkward after 2005, but perhaps both parties would have been remarried and settled by then.

amabel · October 16, 2019, 06:23:55 AM

She was asked for Christmas, but would only turn up for the church service.. She did not feel comfortable with the RF...

Double post auto-merged: October 16, 2019, 06:45:05 AM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on October 16, 2019, 04:37:17 AM
Most of you are more well informed about such matters than I am, but I would think the divorce agreement would have stipulated that she forfeited the HRH. My thinking is that if she received the HRH when she married, she would lose it upon divorcing.

Diana made a statement that she would be known as Diana Princess of Wales without the HRH. the queen was angry at this since discussions were still going on, and she didn't want things leaked to the papers. She probably did not intend Di to continue as HRH.. but Di's premature statement was the last straw. And yes as a divorced wife, it was always on the cards that she would lose the HRH.. Diana then did make a last ditch attempt to hold onto the HRH but the queen was by then adamant. and since Diana had said that she wanted out of the RF, did not want to be married to Chalres, why should she retian the style and title of a royal wife? Then stories emerged that "William had said "never mind Mummy I'll give it back to you"..

sandy · October 16, 2019, 12:28:15 PM

I think Charles was the one that had a lot of say in the matter.

Trudie · October 16, 2019, 01:44:35 PM

Quote from: sandy on October 16, 2019, 12:28:15 PM
I think Charles was the one that had a lot of say in the matter.

I agree Charles most likely as heir had plenty of say in the matter as far as Diana was concerned he was done. It is sad the BRF couldn't have handled Diana's title in the classy way the DRF did with Princess Alexandra and Prince Joachim and downgraded the title to HH which was until she remarried. Alexandra was married to the second son but Diana was married to the heir and mother to the next King.

TLLK · October 16, 2019, 04:08:30 PM

Good point @Trudie. It's a shame that the Danish divorce had to happen but Joachim and Alexandra were no longer happy together and by that time I believe Alexandra had already begun a relationship with her now ex-husband.

Alexandra was HH (Her Highness) until she remarried when she lost her royals style (HH) and title (Princess) and is now known as Her Excellency (HE) the Countess of Frederiksborg.

amabel · October 16, 2019, 06:27:17 PM

Quote from: TLLK on October 16, 2019, 04:08:30 PM
Good point @Trudie. It's a shame that the Danish divorce had to happen but Joachim and Alexandra were no longer happy together and by that time I believe Alexandra had already begun a relationship with her now ex-husband.

Alexandra was HH (Her Highness) until she remarried when she lost her royals style (HH) and title (Princess) and is now known as Her Excellency (HE) the Countess of Frederiksborg.

and Now I believe she is divorced from her second husband....

Curryong · October 17, 2019, 02:05:32 AM

Quote from: amabel on October 16, 2019, 06:27:17 PM
and Now I believe she is divorced from her second husband....

Yes, she is divorced from her second husband. However, she is still the mother of the eldest grandchildren of Queen Daisy and always will be. At the time of her divorce from Prince Joaqu?n the elder son was a direct heir after his uncle and father, as Christian was not yet born.

Queen Margrethe was very friendly with Alexandra, who was popular in Denmark, and did all she could to ease things for her and her son and the boys. That included being respectful of Alexandra's position as the mother of heirs.

What a decent and civilised way to behave in the wake of a divorce, a new title and a new styling! Very very different to the way Diana, also a mother of direct heirs (and not ones likely to be displaced), was treated.

amabel · October 17, 2019, 07:07:35 AM

If someone leaves the RF, I don't see why they would want the same title as if they were in the RF. Diana did not want to be married to Charles nor to be Princess of Wales or queen. She wanted out. But if you go out, you are not going to have the same privileges as if you stayed in. She had a handsome divorce settlement, financially. THe RF was prepared to pay for her to have an office to run her charities from.. and Diana did not do much charity work after her divorce.. but she had the facilities to do so. She was not likely to be allowed to keep the HRH.. but her own behaviour completely negated any possiblitly of a compromise. If she had not leaked to the press... possibly the queen might have been more flexbile.. but she did do this, annoying the queen. Diana was invited to the RF for Chrismas, during her years of separation but she only went ot church and would nto stay even for Lunch.. so I don't quite know what would be the point of many invitations...

Princess Cassandra · October 17, 2019, 06:10:45 PM

Quote from: Curryong on October 17, 2019, 02:05:32 AM
Yes, she is divorced from her second husband. However, she is still the mother of the eldest grandchildren of Queen Daisy and always will be. At the time of her divorce from Prince Joaqu?n the elder son was a direct heir after his uncle and father, as Christian was not yet born.

Queen Margrethe was very friendly with Alexandra, who was popular in Denmark, and did all she could to ease things for her and her son and the boys. That included being respectful of Alexandra's position as the mother of heirs.

What a decent and civilised way to behave in the wake of a divorce, a new title and a new styling! Very very different to the way Diana, also a mother of direct heirs (and not ones likely to be displaced), was treated.

Yes, there were hurts on both sides and in the end, she was not treated well. But compared to the Danish divorce, there was, above all, so much drama in the Wales' situation. I don't think it was ALL caused by themselves - some of it was media coverage making it worse, but it was plenty dramatic on its own. I loved her and still and always will admire her, but in all honesty, Diana was not blameless.

amabel · October 17, 2019, 08:07:15 PM

Im not sure that Alexandra is that popular in Denmark now that she has an income and title but has had a second divorce..
and Diana got a very very generous divorce settlement, much better than Fergie's...She was never likely to keep the HRH as its up to the queen and she wasn't happy with her, anyway. But when Diana did her press leaks, that really problaby finished any hope of her being allowed ot keep it..

Princess Cassandra · October 19, 2019, 07:22:03 PM

Quote from: amabel on October 17, 2019, 08:07:15 PM
Im not sure that Alexandra is that popular in Denmark now that she has an income and title but has had a second divorce..
and Diana got a very very generous divorce settlement, much better than Fergie's...She was never likely to keep the HRH as its up to the queen and she wasn't happy with her, anyway. But when Diana did her press leaks, that really problaby finished any hope of her being allowed ot keep it..

Interesting...I would have thought she was not going to be allowed to keep her HRH status just because she was no longer a royal wife. But you may well be right - interviews and leaks may have sealed her fate regarding the HRH.

amabel · October 19, 2019, 09:31:25 PM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on October 19, 2019, 07:22:03 PM
Interesting...I would have thought she was not going to be allowed to keep her HRH status just because she was no longer a royal wife. But you may well be right - interviews and leaks may have sealed her fate regarding the HRH.

I don't think she was likely to retain it but whatever chances there were of a compromise.. such as perhaps retaining it till she remarried, were gone when she made an announcement, prematurely.

sandy · October 19, 2019, 10:35:09 PM

I think the Queen always intended for her to lose the HRH as did Charles. I doubt they would have had Diana not made any comments. I don't think Diana should be blamed for what was a done deal.

Princess Cassandra · October 20, 2019, 05:13:35 AM

You may be right concerning the Queen's intention. The reason why some are saying otherwise is because of Diana's behavior during the divorce. Looking at it objectively you cannot say she was blameless.

amabel · October 20, 2019, 07:12:50 AM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on October 20, 2019, 05:13:35 AM
You may be right concerning the Queen's intention. The reason why some are saying otherwise is because of Diana's behavior during the divorce. Looking at it objectively you cannot say she was blameless.

Sarah lost her HRH too and no one ever complained about htat, although she was also the mother of 2 of the queen's heirs and grandchildren.... but Sarah lost all popularity during her separation from Andy... I think that it was never on the cards that Di could keep the HRH permanently..but her leaking of the story did annoy the queen and I think it soured relations between Diana nad the rest of the RF. But Diana whiel she did occasionally attend functions with the RF, didn't really want to be there after the separation.. and I don't think that any "kindliness" from the queen would have saved the sitatuion...

Princess Cassandra · October 20, 2019, 05:18:26 PM

Well put, Amabel.

sandy · October 20, 2019, 11:26:13 PM

Quote from: amabel on October 20, 2019, 07:12:50 AM
Sarah lost her HRH too and no one ever complained about htat, although she was also the mother of 2 of the queen's heirs and grandchildren.... but Sarah lost all popularity during her separation from Andy... I think that it was never on the cards that Di could keep the HRH permanently..but her leaking of the story did annoy the queen and I think it soured relations between Diana nad the rest of the RF. But Diana whiel she did occasionally attend functions with the RF, didn't really want to be there after the separation.. and I don't think that any "kindliness" from the queen would have saved the sitatuion...

The royals did not treat Diana very well. On the whole. IMO.

Diana of course would not want to be there after the separation. She and Charles and their sons did come together for William's confirmation after the divorce.

Double post auto-merged: October 20, 2019, 11:29:38 PM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on October 20, 2019, 05:13:35 AM
You may be right concerning the Queen's intention. The reason why some are saying otherwise is because of Diana's behavior during the divorce. Looking at it objectively you cannot say she was blameless.

Charles outed Camilla in 1994. HE forced the PB divorce. That meant a great deal since he did the unprecedented and named his married mistress publicly. Even Edward VIII didn't do that. Wallis's husband took the blame for the divorce and Edward when he became Duke of Windsor only spoke of the woman he loved. Diana on the whole was not treated well by that family. They pushed the marriage knowing Camilla's influence. Charles did not exactly act like a Prince. He certainly had something to do with the Queen's request for a divorce.