The Tudors 1485-1603 Henry VII -Elizabeth I

[cinrit]

Do you think he was more disillusioned (torn to pieces, is more like it) by Katherine Howard because he knew she was guilty, whereas he knew Anne Boleyn was innocent?  Wasn't he told twice about Katherine Howard?  Didn't he dismiss it the first time, and then had to believe it the second time because of the letter she'd written to Culpeper?  What was it he said, that he would make sure she suffered as much in her death as she pleasured in her sin?  Paraphrasing.

Cindy

[amabel]

I can't remember but I thought the remark about that she'd have to suffer all the more having taking delight in her lovers was about Anne. I am not sure if he really believed A was promiscuous,but I think that  maybe he made himself believe it at the time, as he wanted ot get rid of her.  She had disappointed him,  He had turned England and the church upside down for her and she had not produced a son for him, she had alienated the nobility and common people, she had caused him to be at odds with half of Europe.  And she had then not been a supportive wife of the kind he expected.. I guess Anne was never really in love with him and as time passed he knew this.  so he was angry and disillusioned.
With Kath Howard, there had been rumours but he'd dismissed them.  Then the investigation showed pretty unmistakable evidence of infidelity, or at the least a desire to commit adultery even if perhaps Kat hadn't gone the whole way on it perhaps through fear, so he knew she was guilty and having been infatuated with her, an old man's love for a girl, he was again angry and disillusioned and knew that he had made a complete fool of himself. And I think it was Chapuys who said that his grief over katherine was also becuase he had no replacement in mind for her.. so he was losing a wife and had noone ot put in her place..

[Eri]

Do you guys think Ann was guilty of being TOO flirty and that is why rumors about her came to life? She had so many enemies I bet they couldn't believe their luck when they saw how she was behaving ...

[amabel]

She was certainly too flirtatious and when it came to trumping up a charge against her,  there was enough foolish talk from her that coudl be put forward as probable evidence of adultery.  She engaged in flirty talk with teh young men of her court, and possibley also she and George B did make jokes about Henry's potency, which again were brought up as evidence that she had ridiculed the King or cast doubt on the succession.

[cinrit]

Yes, I agree that Anne was too flirtatious, but I don't believe it went any further than that.  She was basically raised in the French court, where flirting was a way of life.  She should have learned better from the years that she spent in England when she returned.  After all the years that Henry spent chasing her, I think she overestimated her value to him at the end.

I can't remember but I thought the remark about that she'd have to suffer all the more having taking delight in her lovers was about Anne.

Definitely not Anne, especially since he made special effort to send for the French swordsman.  Ah, here ... I found it in Antonia Fraser's book, "The Six Wives of Henry VIII" (page 345), in the Katherine Howard chapter:

"As the hideous truth emerged  - this was no calumny, the Queen was not innocent - the King's "perplexity" gave way to an orgy of self-pity.  He blamed his Council - who else? - for 'this last mischief'.  He lamented his misfortune in having a succession of such 'ill-conditioned' wives.  After that, his mood turned to mighty anger, in view of his Queen's ingratitude, the monstrous betrayal she had brought about.  He called for a sword to go and slay her 'that he loved so much'.  He vowed that all the pleasure 'that wicked woman' had had from her 'inconsistency' (wantonness) should not equal the pain she should feel from torture.  And finally, 'he took to tears'.  Some of his courtiers thought he had actually gone mad."

Cindy

[amabel]

Thanks Cindy.  Poor Katherine.
I think that Anne was too flirty, I think it was a desperate  need in her to have male admiration, esp perhaps sicne she and Henry were increasingly at odds with each other, and after miscarrying her last baby, I think she got into dangerous territory with the young men of her entourage, encouraging them to say things that were pretty inflammatory, and easy to misinterpret. I don't think she went any further than verbal flirting but she should not have gone as far as she did.

[HereditaryPrincess]

I'll be interested in your conclusion, HereditaryPrincess.  The Henry VIII workshop that I'm attending was supposed to be about Anne Boleyn this past Wednesday night, but it was postponed due to ice (professor couldn't get here) and we'll be discussing her next Wednesday.  It's always interesting to get other points of view.

Cindy

Thanks cinrit - here are some extra points to my opinion on Anne:

I too think Anne was a little too flirtatious, and I don't particularly like her attitude towards Catherine of Aragon and her daughter Mary.  She's not my favourite of Henry VIII's wives. On the plus side, I think she was quite pretty and clever. I've also read that she was one of the most fashionable women at court around the time.

[cinrit]

Thanks, HereditaryPrincess.  I agree, Anne's treatment towards Princess Mary was abhorrent.  I'm not so sure she had much to do with the treatment of Catherine, though she dressed in yellow and danced (along with Henry) when Catherine died.

Eri, Anne Boleyn's sister-in-law, Lady Rochford, who was also her lady-in-waiting, perjured herself by saying that Anne had had a sexual relationship with her brother, George, even though she knew it was untrue.  Lady Rochford did not have a good relationship with George, and she didn't like the closeness between he and Anne.  She got special favors from the court afterwards for "helping" with the case against Anne.  She was also lady-in-waiting to Katherine Howard, and she was executed along with her, for having helped Katherine in her affair with Thomas Culpeper.  Not a woman to be trusted under any circumstances.

Anne Boleyn's brother, George, was thought to have put up a good defense, and probably would have been found innocent, had he not disobeyed an order in the court.  He was handed a letter that was supposedly to him from Anne, telling him that Henry VIII was impotent.  He was told to read the letter silently and agree to it or not.  Instead, he read it out loud, purposely ... and was found guilty.

Cindy

[cinrit]

The vast majority of historians believe she was innocent.  At her trial, even the dates they concocted as her having been when she committed adultery were proven to be fabricated, since they made no sense.  She was nowhere near where they claimed she was on some dates, she was with the King on other dates, and I believe at least one date was when she was far along in pregnancy.  And the only lady-in-waiting who talked was Jane Rochford, who was well rewarded for her story.  Had Henry believed that Jane knew that Anne and her brother were committing incest and hadn't reported it, Lady Rochford would have had a different ending.  I'm not sure where the idea that her ladies-in-waiting were talking like canaries comes from, but it's not so.

Cindy

[cinrit]

I watched the documentary a couple of days ago, Eri, and I've just watched it again.  I didn't hear anything about Anne's ladies-in-waiting turning against her, nor anything about them talking against her.  As Amabel and I have stated, the only lady-in-waiting who is "on record" as giving evidence against her is Jane Rochford, and there is doubt in some areas that she did, either.  There is only the evidence that a letter, supposedly from Lady Rochford, accusing Anne and her brother George (Jane Rochford's husband) of incest, was read in court.  Yes, Anne did have enemies.  In such a highly politically charged court as Henry's, it would be unusual for anyone to not have had enemies.  But Anne had friends, too, as was also common in the court.

Perhaps you could provide the counter number where the ladies-in-waiting turning against Anne is reported in the documentary?

Cindy

[cinrit]

Yes, exactly, Amabel.  Jane Rochford implicated George only, and I suspect from a position of jealousy.  There were hints that her marriage to George was in trouble over differences of religion.

As it turns out, I watched the documentary a third time last night!  When I turned the television to my local PBS station, expecting a documentary about the Amish, I was surprised to see that they were showing the same documentary that Eri posted a few days ago!  How's that for coincidence?

Tonight, my Henry VIII workshop will be focusing on Anne Boleyn.  I will take note of what the professor has to say about Anne's downfall. 

Cindy

[amabel]

Yes, exactly, Amabel.  Jane Rochford implicated George only, and I suspect from a position of jealousy.  There were hints that her marriage to George was in trouble over differences of religion.

As it turns out, I watched the documentary a third time last night!  Whe

Tonight, my Henry VIII workshop will be focusing on Anne Boleyn.  I will take note of what the professor has to say about Anne's downfall. 

Cindy

Novelists have tended to portray Jane Rochford as being jealous of her husband's affection for Anne, and making up stories out of spite.  She did also protest about the divorce and was in the tower for speaking in favour of Mary and Catherine.  But she also was on Anne's side at times and IIRC she plotted with Anne to get rid of a girl at court whom Anne suspected of flirting iwht Henry.  So she probably swung around according to what suited her interests at the time. But her   conduct later seems to suggest instability or insanity.. She is said ot have gone mad by the time she was executed.

[cinrit]

The workshop last night was interesting (and fun).  Lots of participation, more than the previous session on Catherine of Aragon, and I was surprised at how much support Anne got.  From comments that I heard at the last session, I wouldn't have expected it.  Eri, we went overtime last night, which put us at almost three hours, so I can't remember everything the professor said, but he said pretty much the same that Amabel and I have been saying.  If you ask specific questions, I can tell you what his viewpoint was on each.  We ran so much overtime, we didn't have time to get to Anne's arrest and trial, and I assume we'll fit that in at the beginning of next week.  The general consensus, though, from comments throughout the workshop, was that Anne was more than likely innocent. 

Oh, and speaking of Bernard, the one historian who believes Anne was guilty, the professor's opinion about him is that he (Bernard) tends to disagree with just about everyone about just about anything historical. 

Cindy

[amabel]

Hi Cindy, glad you got there.  I read Bernard's book last year or mabye a bit longer back, and it didn't seem to be anything more than HIS deciding to believe that she was guilty, and to follow a poem written about her at the time, which is hardly IMO evidence.  I tried ot get a discussion of it going here but I think at the time there was no great interest, except for you. 

[Eri]

The workshop last night was interesting (and fun).  Lots of participation, more than the previous session on Catherine of Aragon, and I was surprised at how much support Anne got.  From comments that I heard at the last session, I wouldn't have expected it.  Eri, we went overtime last night, which put us at almost three hours, so I can't remember everything the professor said, but he said pretty much the same that Amabel and I have been saying.  If you ask specific questions, I can tell you what his viewpoint was on each.  We ran so much overtime, we didn't have time to get to Anne's arrest and trial, and I assume we'll fit that in at the beginning of next week.  The general consensus, though, from comments throughout the workshop, was that Anne was more than likely innocent. 

Oh, and speaking of Bernard, the one historian who believes Anne was guilty, the professor's opinion about him is that he (Bernard) tends to disagree with just about everyone about just about anything historical. 

Cindy

Why does he think Ann lost her head?

[cinrit]

^^ Eri, he believes the reason was two-fold ... he was tiring of Anne, and she hadn't given him a son.  He believes that if she'd born a living son, he would have stayed married to her, even though they probably wouldn't have had a close marriage.  He had to get rid of Anne completely in order to "start over" with a new wife.  If not, he would be in the same position as when he married Anne, meaning there would still be people who would consider Anne his true wife as long as she was alive.  Henry needed to make sure that any son that Jane might bear, would be considered legitimate by everyone.

Hi Cindy, glad you got there.  I read Bernard's book last year or mabye a bit longer back, and it didn't seem to be anything more than HIS deciding to believe that she was guilty, and to follow a poem written about her at the time, which is hardly IMO evidence.  I tried ot get a discussion of it going here but I think at the time there was no great interest, except for you.   

Thanks, Amabel.  At least the roads weren't icy last night!  I remember when you tried to get a discussion about Anne going here.  I'm glad that we now have the opportunity.  I haven't read Bernard's book, but I'd heard about him.  I wasn't sure of his name, though, until I read your post.  Is the poem he bases his opinion on, the one written by Thomas Wyatt?  Or was it another one?  Wyatt did seem to have a fascination for Anne, but as the professor last night asked, did he feel romantic love for her, or was it courtly love?  In any case, in Wyatt's poem, he does reference that she belongs to Henry:

Who list her hunt, I put him out of doubt,
As well as I may spend his time in vain.
And graven with diamonds in letters plain
There is written, her fair neck round about:
Noli me tangere, for Caesar’s I am,
And wild for to hold, though I seem tame.

Cindy

[amabel]

Oh no,  not Wyatt.  I can't remember who its by, butyou know how people wrote ballads about current events, like they post on Twitter now!  I think it was De Carles, but I can't remember offhand and am suffering from nasty acute back pain so can't carry books right now.
But there were ballads about Anne, and they were of dubious authenticity.

there was a story that Anne had Mark Smeaton hidden in a closet and her women let hm out to sleep with her, obviously all that 's invention!!
But I think that G Bernard just was being ornery and determined ot go against current historical opinion.
it wasn't' rocket science to figure out why Anne fell.  she was a political liability, sicne she tied Henry to the French alliance.. and the French were difficult allies whereas Henry's and England's Best  course of action was to keep free and side with the Emperor or the French as their needs required.
And she was pretty unpopular with the nobility AND the common people. .
If she produced a son, that would outweight her faults, sicne it was important ot have a secure succession.. but she had only had  1 girl and a few miscarriages.  So  she was not looking good from that POV either.  Of course Henry would never have displaced the mother of a son, he didn't care about a "close marriage" by then.. he would have found hs amusements elsewhere.   but he was bitterly disappointed in Anne. She was not popular, she had failed ot give him his son, she alienated people with her arrogance, she had not been the wife he had hoped for.. and he had a perfect "Submissive Tudor woman" type in Jane S..

[cinrit]

Oh, do you mean like the broadsheets of the Middle Ages and Renaissance?  I remember reading one about Henry VIII many years ago, but I don't remember much about it.  It was more like a parody or a farce of him and one of his wives, or maybe all of them.  I don't remember a name being associated with it, but there may have been. 

I'm not sure I understand how Anne tied Henry to the French Alliance.  Wasn't she shunned at some gathering that he took her to ... maybe they weren't even married yet?  Was it Queen Claude who said she wouldn't meet with her? 

I wonder if Anne's unpopularity surprised her, too?  I wonder if she really cared, as long as she had Henry's protection?  And she did have his protection until he accepted that she, too, would not provide him with a son.

Cindy

[amabel]

Since the Emperor was C of Aragon's aunt, naturally they weren't too thrilled iwht doing diplomatic business with England, when their princess had been ousted and ill treated by Henry and Anne. so that really just left France as an ally.  There were only 2 poweres in Europe. 
And the French had their ups and downs with England.  Francis was a little sympathetic to Anne and received her as  Hery's future wife,  but his wife would not.  She was a relative of the Emperor's. (Not queen Claude but F's second wife).
And while Anne probably WAS foolishly arrogant enough to think that her lack of popularity didn't matter, it did.  When Henry began to cool towards her, it meant she Had no one else.

[Eri]

Oh no,  not Wyatt.  I can't remember who its by, butyou know how people wrote ballads about current events, like they post on Twitter now!  I think it was De Carles, but I can't remember offhand and am suffering from nasty acute back pain so can't carry books right now.
But there were ballads about Anne, and they were of dubious authenticity.

there was a story that Anne had Mark Smeaton hidden in a closet and her women let hm out to sleep with her, obviously all that 's invention!!
But I think that G Bernard just was being ornery and determined ot go against current historical opinion.
it wasn't' rocket science to figure out why Anne fell.  she was a political liability, sicne she tied Henry to the French alliance.. and the French were difficult allies whereas Henry's and England's Best  course of action was to keep free and side with the Emperor or the French as their needs required.
And she was pretty unpopular with the nobility AND the common people. .
If she produced a son, that would outweight her faults, sicne it was important ot have a secure succession.. but she had only had  1 girl and a few miscarriages.  So  she was not looking good from that POV either.  Of course Henry would never have displaced the mother of a son, he didn't care about a "close marriage" by then.. he would have found hs amusements elsewhere.   but he was bitterly disappointed in Anne. She was not popular, she had failed ot give him his son, she alienated people with her arrogance, she had not been the wife he had hoped for.. and he had a perfect "Submissive Tudor woman" type in Jane S..

Jane wasn't submissive just because she wasn't rude and arrogant like Ann doesn't mean she was submissive ... she was smarter that's for sure ...

[cinrit]

I don't know if Jane was submissive or if she was putting on a good act, but she certainly did come across as submissive.  She was definitely coached by her brothers, both of whom were ultimately beheaded for treason.  Jane's good luck, if you can call it that, was that she died before Henry had a chance to tire of her.  After she gave him a son (who died at 16), he would never had divorced her, but there were rumors that his eyes were beginning to roam even while she was pregnant.

Cindy

[amabel]

That's true Cindy.  She wasn't 100^% submissive, she stood up to Henry over the issue of the monasteries, and possibly over Princess Mary.. but usually Henry di what he wanted.  it was rare for him to pay a lot of attention to women's influences.  His eyes wandering didn't really matter, he was likely to flirt or fool around, but yeah you're rihgt that Jane was lucky enough to die before pehrpas Henry DID get bored iwht her and paid less attention to her..

[Eri]

^^ Eri, he believes the reason was two-fold ... he was tiring of Anne, and she hadn't given him a son.  He believes that if she'd born a living son, he would have stayed married to her, even though they probably wouldn't have had a close marriage.  He had to get rid of Anne completely in order to "start over" with a new wife.  If not, he would be in the same position as when he married Anne, meaning there would still be people who would consider Anne his true wife as long as she was alive.  Henry needed to make sure that any son that Jane might bear, would be considered legitimate by everyone.

Hi Cindy, glad you got there.  I read Bernard's book last year or mabye a bit longer back, and it didn't seem to be anything more than HIS deciding to believe that she was guilty, and to follow a poem written about her at the time, which is hardly IMO evidence.  I tried ot get a discussion of it going here but I think at the time there was no great interest, except for you.   

Thanks, Amabel.  At least the roads weren't icy last night!  I remember when you tried to get a discussion about Anne going here.  I'm glad that we now have the opportunity.  I haven't read Bernard's book, but I'd heard about him.  I wasn't sure of his name, though, until I read your post.  Is the poem he bases his opinion on, the one written by Thomas Wyatt?  Or was it another one?  Wyatt did seem to have a fascination for Anne, but as the professor last night asked, did he feel romantic love for her, or was it courtly love?  In any case, in Wyatt's poem, he does reference that she belongs to Henry:

Who list her hunt, I put him out of doubt,
As well as I may spend his time in vain.
And graven with diamonds in letters plain
There is written, her fair neck round about:
Noli me tangere, for Caesar's I am,
And wild for to hold, though I seem tame.

Cindy

Will you talk about Jane next? Please report back  :flower:.

[cinrit]

^^ Yes, Jane will be next.  We'll most likely go over Anne's arrest and her trial first, then onto Jane.  I'm looking forward to what the general consensus on her will be.  I'll be sure to report back here. :)

Cindy

[cinrit]

Reporting in from the Henry VIII workshop last night.  There was a lot of speculation about Jane Seymour, because, as the professor said, we know practically nothing about her.  For over 25 years, we heard nothing about her ... then she was suddenly on the scene when Henry noticed her, and only three or four years later, she was gone.  We saw clips from several movies, showing how different directors have chosen to depict her.  Because no one knows more than a small percentage of her life, writers and directors can portray her any way they want.  Some show her as innocent and naive, some show her as cunning and conniving.  We'll never know the real Jane.

There was a moment of levity when one woman said that she'd heard Jane died of a fever after giving birth because she "went down to the kitchen looking for something to eat, mingled with the cooks, and caught a fever from one of them".  I wish I could describe the look on the professor's face. :hehe:  It turned out that one of his colleagues told this story to the woman, who believed it.  The professor got a kick out of the practical joke, and declared that before he retired for the night, he would be writing an email to his colleague.

Not much more to report, Eri.  We discussed a little about Catherine of Aragon, a little about Anne Boleyn's execution, and a little about "The Tudors" (the professor said he's not a fan of it).  We saw pictures of actresses who've played Anne in movies (and I was surprised to learn that Jane Asher, who was engaged to Paul McCartney in the Sixties, played her in the early 70's).  Next week, we'll talk about Anne of Cleves, and that should be very interesting.  We don't know a lot about her, either, but we know enough to know that she was smart enough to escape marriage to Henry with her head intact, and to gain a lot by doing so.

One interesting thought that was brought up when someone in the group noticed that most of Henry's wives had the same "shape".  As it turns out, Henry obviously liked a certain body build ... thin, with small chests.  Anne of Cleves was a big woman and top-heavy.  The professor believes that Anne of Cleves' misfortune was that she just wasn't Henry VIII's "type". 

Cindy