Royal Insight Forum

No, not always.

The only source of sadness attributed to Diana was the lack of love and support from her husband in her marriage.

I think Diana got a raw deal. Too bad she did not have a chance to live a long life post divorce.

It is unfortunate that the Wedding of Charles and Diana did not live up to its fairytale expectation for Diana.

I have found that it is up to you to decide when and how you are going to be happy. Other people may try to harm you but it is ultimately you who can decide whether you are going to be happy or not. Generally speaking, I keep away from things that distress me. I wish Diana had done the same. Life is too short to quarrel with people. Her death robbed Diana of the chance to start over again in a different context. Not that I think she would have asked for another life other than being princess of wales. She liked the role and shone in it. Besides she would never regret having her children. The problem is that she also wanted a great big romance which Charles was unable to or unwilling to participate in. I think that an amicable divorce and a do over is the best course in such situations.

Diana could not possibly ignore some things.  Charles should not have married Diana because he did not love her. He wanted heirs and I think thought he could have it all: the wife, heirs, and mistress.  Charles tended to think of "concepts" not reality. Camilla's husband was amenable but he should have figured Diana might not have been. In some cases, if a wife found out the husband really did not love her after the marriage ceremony, an annulment could be possible. A very difficult thing for Diana to have even attempted to do. It was not easy to move in and out of that marriage.

Diana the saddest princess? there are plenty of women princesses or not, who had a sadder and more difuflct life

I think the most tragic Princess, was a previous Princess Charlotte. She was in line to be Queen after her father, George IV. She was happily married to Prince Leopold. She died suddenly in childbirth--she and her baby both died.

I can think of more than one.. what about Carlotta of MExico?  or Mary Tudor? Sophia Dorothea.. 

The four Grand Duchesses who were assassinated in 1918.

I think she was the saddest princess who was the most outspoken about her troubles behind closed doors. I can't think of a princess who went against the RF and had the public in her corner at the same time, so suddenly. Sure there's more princesses who suffered more tragedies, put up with the same things diana did and stricter rules. But the way she managed to reach people around world for being so vocal about her troubles, somehow made her sadness even more terrible than others.

I agree that Diana was a very sad princess. However, for me the saddest Princess of all time was Prince Philip's grandmother, Victoria Milford Haven, born Princess Victoria of Hesse. You don't get many Princesses who lose a brother in childhood who fell off a balcony, a mother and sister who died when she was fifteen, of typhoid.

Victoria's marriage was happy but two of her sisters were killed by the Bolsheviks, Ella being thrown alive down a mine shaft, Alex killed with her entire family at Ekaterinberg.

Victoria's daughter Alice suffered years of mental illness and Victoria had to have her committed, and her granddaughter Cecilie, husband and two little boys and unborn grandson were killed in a horrific plane crash while on their way to a wedding in 1937. The survivor, a little girl Joanna, who'd been left at home, died of meningitis two years later.

I think that's more than enough tragedy in one person's lifetime.

Quote from: amabel on May 10, 2017, 05:11:52 PM
I can think of more than one.. what about Carlotta of MExico?  or Mary Tudor? Sophia Dorothea.. 

CP Masako and Empress Michiko have both endured periods of depression and sadness as well because of the intense pressure, negative media articles and bullying from the IHA.  Michiko was mute for almost an entire year during the 1960's and 1990's.  Masako's ongoing issues have been widely discussed as well.

I think compared with the royal women of the past, many of whom endured real ill treatement, Diana and other modern royals while they might have had sadness in their lives, really had little to complain of.
Diana certainly did manage to complain loudly, but that doesn't make her sadness more terrible.

It's not exactly about who lost more loved ones in a short amount of time. It's how she handled it behind closed doors and in public. To say she had little to nothing to complain about because some had it much worst is unfair. They have the same title, not the same personality.

Quotemany of whom endured real ill treatement

While they didn't share the same experiences as royal women from the 19th century and earlier, I would put the Japanese royal ladies Michiko and Masako in that category for the twentieth.

^ Yes, Misako and Michiko have received terrible treatment from the IRH, treatment that would have broken most women, not just these two. I often wonder just how powerful the Emperor really is if he can't dismantle this bureaucratic monstrosity and bring it into at least the late 20th century. Members of that royal family are truly like puppets in some senses, dancing to the tune others compose.

I've wondered that as well @Curryong. Considering what had happened to Michiko I'm not surprised that it took three proposals for Masako to say yes to marrying her prince.

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Quote from: amabel on May 11, 2017, 01:19:22 AM
I think compared with the royal women of the past, many of whom endured real ill treatement, Diana and other modern royals while they might have had sadness in their lives, really had little to complain of.
Diana certainly did manage to complain loudly, but that doesn't make her sadness more terrible.

Diana like Sweden's Silvia, Spain's Sofia, and  Belgium's Paola had an unfaithful spouse. It's unfortunately a common occurrence in more than one royal and commoner marriage.

Princesses who married into the British royal family did get cheated on even though they were not commoners. Alexandra was a Danish Princess, sister of the wife and mother of a Tsar and  had many royal relatives. Despite this, she was cheated on by Edward VII. Marina, a Princess in her own right, was cheated on by Prince George, who had male and female lovers.

Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

^ I don't think it is the Japanese Imperial family that is the problem really. Her spouse and others have been sympathetic and supportive of the Crown Princess over the years.

It just seems that everyone from the Emperor down seems to be a prisoner of rituals, expectations, protocol laid down long ago and being unable to speak out against it because image is everything. I don't mean image in the modern PR sense of the word, but a determination to keep everything ultra private and symbolic, without any loss of face at any time for any reason.

This is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

The Royal females are expected to have a son. Producing a daughter only, has broken Crown Princess Masako. The pressure on her must have been horrendous. And this was a highly intelligent and accomplished woman.

I always remember seeing a cartoon in a British newspaper of crowds in Tokyo cheering Masako on her way to her wedding and Diana attracting a startled Masako's attention from the crowd by calling out 'Don't do it, love!'

The Japanese royal family is behind the times. Masako's daughter may well have become a splendid monarch. I hope Masako and the Crown Prince love and cherish their daughter, she is not inferior to any male.

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Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

Not all of them were. Prince Albert was faithful to his wife Victoria and did not understand his eldest son's behavior with women. Edward's siblings were faithful. Vicki, the eldest daughter had a loving marriage where partners were faithful to one another. They did not "all" do this and naming others who did this does not make the adultery acceptable.

Diana was only divorced one year, she probably would have found someone. She was only 36 not 96 when she died.

At least Alexandra's husband did not leave  his wife's bed after they had their first two children.

QuoteThis is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

IMO this was then strengthened by the actions of the American occupation forces after the war. I believe that they did not understand the power that the IHA/courtiers had over the Imperial family and since then they have continued to have a hold on them.

I also agree @Curryong that the individual members of the Imperial family are supportive of each other, but that there is a level of frustration between them as well. CP Nahurito is rumored to have been angered by what happened to his mother and reportedly blames his father for not putting an end to it.

I've kind of tuned out to this thread cause its out of my depth, but now were into something in my wheelhouse on it. They did not understand Japan, like a lot of their adversaries and allies in the 20th century. I know given its a royal forum the default opinion might be more monarchy is best monarchy, but I do think that it was a short term expediency but a long term mistake to allow Japan to keep the emperor and related system.

Quote from: Curryong on May 12, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
^ I don't think it is the Japanese Imperial family that is the problem really. Her spouse and others have been sympathetic and supportive of the Crown Princess over the years.

It just seems that everyone from the Emperor down seems to be a prisoner of rituals, expectations, protocol laid down long ago and being unable to speak out against it because image is everything. I don't mean image in the modern PR sense of the word, but a determination to keep everything ultra private and symbolic, without any loss of face at any time for any reason.

This is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

The Royal females are expected to have a son. Producing a daughter only, has broken Crown Princess Masako. The pressure on her must have been horrendous. And this was a highly intelligent and accomplished woman.

I

so what is the problem if her husband and the RF have been supportive?

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Quote from: sandy on May 12, 2017, 01:17:35 PM
The Japanese royal family is behind the times. Masako's daughter may well have become a splendid monarch. I hope Masako and the Crown Prince love and cherish their daughter, she is not inferior to any male.

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Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

Not all of them were. Prince Albert was faithful to his wife Victoria and did not understand his eldest son's behavior with women. Edward's siblings were faithful. Vicki, the eldest daughter had a loving marriage where partners were faithful to one another. They did not "all" do this and naming others who did this does not make the adultery acceptable.

I don't know wath Edward you mean but If you mean Ed VII his brothers were not faithful.  Alfred was a womaniser, Arthur seems ot have had an affair with one of Jennie Jerome's sisters. Leo wan't married very long. Obvioulsy his sisters were faithful.
And I honeslty can't understand why people bring up this apparent grieveance that "Charles left Diana's bed."  If he was with another woman, whom he preferred, and his wife and he were not getting on and she was ill and depressed why would she want a physcial relationship iwht a man she was increasingly unhappy with?
Ed VII did what many  married men of the time did, he fathered some children, then he left his wife alone, and took up with mistresses.  Alix was probably very relieved to be finished with a sex life, when she had had 6 children in rapid succession, as was expected of her..had lost one, and was in poor health.

^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.

It doesn't matter how empathetic other members of the family have been to individual members, and as TLLK has pointed out there have at times also been strains between them. It is the system that is at fault and they can't change that, because if they did attempt it they would fail, as it would place the whole structure in danger of collapse, (according to the Japanese POV.)

Prisoners of war can be sympathetic and supportive of each other and often are but that doesn't change the fact that they are prisoners of war.

Duch_, at the beginning of the occupation of Japan in 1945 the MacArthur administration did give serious thought to either abolishing the Imperial system or seriously restricting the powers of the Emperor over his people as well as putting Hirohito on trial for war crimes committed in his name.

None of those measures were adopted except for the second one, which came about naturally as the result of Japan's occupation. They believed that the reverence with which the Emperor was held by the populace would disappear after a few years of the westernised education system they would put in place. In a sense it has reduced to a certain extent, certainly in comparison to what it was before the Second World War and before when the Emperor was regarded as a god.

This has been partly due to measures decided by Hirohito's son. However even today the Emperor and his family are held in the sort of respect and awe by the Japanese people that has completely disappeared in other monarchies.

MacArthur and his deputies did not touch the Imperial system then in place in 1945 because they were told by those who knew Japan that the country would become ungovernable if they tried it. Those who knew Japan believed that the people would rise up against their conquerers, leading to a long lasting guerrilla war of incredible ferocity. That's why they left it alone.

Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 06:58:07 PM

Quote from: Curryong on May 12, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
^ I don't think it is the Japanese Imperial family that is the problem really. Her spouse and others have been sympathetic and supportive of the Crown Princess over the years.

It just seems that everyone from the Emperor down seems to be a prisoner of rituals, expectations, protocol laid down long ago and being unable to speak out against it because image is everything. I don't mean image in the modern PR sense of the word, but a determination to keep everything ultra private and symbolic, without any loss of face at any time for any reason.

This is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

The Royal females are expected to have a son. Producing a daughter only, has broken Crown Princess Masako. The pressure on her must have been horrendous. And this was a highly intelligent and accomplished woman.

I

so what is the problem if her husband and the RF have been supportive?

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Quote from: sandy on May 12, 2017, 01:17:35 PM
The Japanese royal family is behind the times. Masako's daughter may well have become a splendid monarch. I hope Masako and the Crown Prince love and cherish their daughter, she is not inferior to any male.

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Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

Not all of them were. Prince Albert was faithful to his wife Victoria and did not understand his eldest son's behavior with women. Edward's siblings were faithful. Vicki, the eldest daughter had a loving marriage where partners were faithful to one another. They did not "all" do this and naming others who did this does not make the adultery acceptable.

I don't know wath Edward you mean but If you mean Ed VII his brothers were not faithful.  Alfred was a womaniser, Arthur seems ot have had an affair with one of Jennie Jerome's sisters. Leo wan't married very long. Obvioulsy his sisters were faithful.
And I honeslty can't understand why people bring up this apparent grieveance that "Charles left Diana's bed."  If he was with another woman, whom he preferred, and his wife and he were not getting on and she was ill and depressed why would she want a physcial relationship iwht a man she was increasingly unhappy with?
Ed VII did what many  married men of the time did, he fathered some children, then he left his wife alone, and took up with mistresses.  Alix was probably very relieved to be finished with a sex life, when she had had 6 children in rapid succession, as was expected of her..had lost one, and was in poor health.

I meant to say Bertie. But he was known as Edward as KIng

Alexandra had many children. She had a difficult childbirth that caused health problems and one baby, Prince John died in infancy. Bertie was not in the best of health either, being obese and having health issues. Alexandra was known to be in love with her husband and reportedly said "he loved me best" or words to that effect. She just looked the other way but was said to use passive aggression on her husband.

If Charles did not feel he loved Diana, he had no business marrying her. A woman can file for an annulment or divorce if her husband leaves her bed and goes to his mistress. Diana did not have that freedom early in the marriage. Charles had no business running to another woman because his wife did not "please him" enough. That is just nasty.

Quote^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.

:goodpost: @Curryong.

Also then CP Michiko's mother-in-law the Empress was upset that her eldest son did not choose a bride from one of the imperial and aristocratic families. He choose the daughter of an industrialist who had been educated at a Catholic girls school. The Empress was also behind the near constant belittling and bullying of her daughter-in-law. Michiko didn't hand her children over to servants after their birth but chose to nurse them herself and create some form of family life. This greatly upset the IHA to see that imperial tradition was being modernized. It didn't matter to them that her husband agreed with his wife. She was considered to be the usurper.

For sure @Curryong there was a few things at play, with the war won, the US had quickly lost the...im not going have the right word here, not bloodlust, not will to fight, um...kind of like.... I think they felt they had knocked Japan down so to speak, to compare war as a fight between two people, and as long as they stayed down, they saw no reason to get on the ground and finish them off once and for all.

There was real concern after the battle at Okinawa over how a land invasion would have gone, not that the ultimate decision was in doubt, but would the US be willing to pay the price in terms of bodycount, in what would have been a foreshadowing of vietnam, and not to take the sparkle off the usual historical claim for the end of the pacific war, it was the entry of the USSR that caused Japan to ultimately surrender not the A bombs.While they were novel and terrifying, they were roughly similar in damage to the usual bombing raids on Japanese cities already done with impunity since the fall of Tinian and Iwo Jima. In England,Germany,USSR and Japan the lesson after WW2 was that mass city bombing doesnt really do what its backers claimed it would do.

The US had already determined the USSR would be the next opponent and wanted the conflict in Japan over ASAP to prevent USSR from staking a claim to any more territory( they already had manchuria, northern korea, etc. and Japan could have been partitioned like Korea if the war had gone on much longer. (USSR was eager to avenge previous losses in the 20s to Japan and would have not turned down more territory).

So expediency was key and like you said if there had been a protracted guerilla battle, it would have been hard for the people at home to support in the US. But I guess that would depend on how much of the Japanese military command would have been left, had they gone that route and how "broken" the Japanese public would have been having the emperor hung, or shot, or whatever.

Seventy years on, it seems to be a livable arrangement, but seeing the views of prime minister Abe and the recent move to no longer limit their forces to the homeland does give me pause as unlike Germany, they havent taken to heart their role in the war, despite some formal apologies over the years. Also world opinion also seems to have given them more of a "pass" eg: most war movies/games etc. now are usually heavily skewed towards the european theatre and not the pacific.

Which one of Jennie Jerome's sisters did Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught have an affair? I have never heard this before.

Leonie, Lady Leslie was the wife of an Anglo Irish soldier and land owner in Ireland. The family seat was Castle Leslie in County Monoghan. Leonie was sister to Jennie Jerome and had a long friendship, lasting until the Duke of Connaught's death, with him and with his wife Princess Louise who predeceased him by about a quarter of a century.

Leonie Leslie was believed to be Prince Arthur's mistress, but it was probably one of those relationships in which the bonds of friendship were greater than the amour. Louise, Arthur's wife, who had been brought up in a very straitlaced household in Berlin, with a pig of a father, loved her company, (Leonie was a very witty and lighthearted woman) and she would often invite her to stay on her own account.

Of course I suppose Leonie gained a little more social prominence than she would have as the wife of an Irish baronet but I think she really enjoyed cheering the couple up as they appeared to be a bit lonely. They had spent much of their married life in different parts of the British Empire which had made close friendships in English Society difficult.

When the Duke of Connaught was very old and doddery he spent his time in the country on his estate. It was wartime and travel was very difficult but Leonie (who was by that time no spring chicken herself ) considered it her duty to visit him several times a year, staying for a couple of days. She did this until the Duke's death.

Quote from: TLLK on May 12, 2017, 11:40:22 PM

Quote^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.

:goodpost: @Curryong.

Also then CP Michiko's mother-in-law the Empress was upset that her eldest son did not choose a bride from one of the imperial and aristocratic families. He choose the daughter of an industrialist who had been educated at a Catholic girls school. The Empress was also behind the near constant belittling and bullying of her daughter-in-law. Michiko didn't hand her children over to servants after their birth but chose to nurse them herself and create some form of family life. This greatly upset the IHA to see that imperial tradition was being modernized. It didn't matter to them that her husband agreed with his wife. She was considered to be the usurper.

but if she's so unhappy why has she stayed in the marriage?  or is that unacceptable?

^^^I don't know the answer to that other than to guess that she likely would have never seen her sons and daughter again nor would she have had any contact with future grandchildren. I can also assume that the pressure to stay would have been tremendous.

Things appear to have improved a bit when Hirohito died in 1989 and her husband Akihito ascended to the throne. (However there was a second bout of her becoming mute in the 1990's)

Mute?  pretty odd?  In fact if they were so strict and rigid, I wouodl have said that they'd say a mute princess ca'nt do her job and maybe even divorced her, if that is acceptable in their culture.

Quote from: TLLK on May 13, 2017, 06:23:59 AM
^^^I don't know the answer to that other than to guess that she likely would have never seen her sons and daughter again nor would she have had any contact with future grandchildren. I can also assume that the pressure to stay would have been tremendous.

Things appear to have improved a bit when Hirohito died in 1989 and her husband Akihito ascended to the throne. (However there was a second bout of her becoming mute in the 1990's)

I'm just getting a bit curious about this, I never wanted to know much about Japan, but I'm curious that their IF is SOOOOO hidebound..
Surely since Japans society  has changed immeasurably since the days before WWII, the IF has changed too?  IF they are not happy with their situaton, why not loosen things up a bit?
If its so awful to marry into, it seems odd that they can find women who will, unless they are also upper class or royal and know the score. 
Anyway what I'm asking is, does anyone know ofa good book bout the JIF?

^ The only book I've ever read on the Japanese Imperial Family has been 'Princess Masako: Prisoner of the Chrysanthemum Throne' and that was some time ago, so I don't know how up to date it would be. It was interesting. However, as the IMperial Household and the IF are one of the most secretive units on the face of the earth and nobody, literally NOBODY, speaks to outsiders ever, most books on the family are about 80% speculation.

To be honest, I learned what I do know about the IF and more importantly the Imperial Household, as they're the ones that give the Family permission to breathe, from years of lurking on Royal Dish where they used to have a Japanese poster who really knew her stuff regarding how matters worked, and at The Royal Forums of course, when various subjects came up.

Quote from: amabel on May 13, 2017, 06:45:13 AM
Mute?  pretty odd?  In fact if they were so strict and rigid, I wouodl have said that they'd say a mute princess ca'nt do her job and maybe even divorced her, if that is acceptable in their culture.

Just noticed this post today @amabel. Yes I do believe that divorce is acceptable today but in the early 1960's that might have been an issue for the CP couple. Also I'm not sure if Ahkito would have wanted to divorce her because he did choose her for love and would have known that the behavior/actions his mother and the IHA were the root cause his wife's condition.

Quote from: Curryong on November 12, 2017, 05:45:37 PM
^
To be honest, I learned what I do know about the IF and more importantly the Imperial Household, as they're the ones that give the Family permission to breathe, from years of lurking on Royal Dish where they used to have a Japanese poster who really knew her stuff regarding how matters worked, and at The Royal Forums of course, when various subjects came up.

Thanks, all sounds very weird, if the Court don't speak to outsiders, it msut be very hard to know what the truth is... so a book or people on a Forum, can't know any more than anyone else?
It is hard enough to tease out what tis the truth about a European RF, so if the culture is even more secretive and hidebound, must be very hard. I'll look for that book