The War of the Wales' discussion Part 3

[amabel]

A ring that is accepted by the woman proposed to becomes the engagement ring. If she does not accept it, it is not an engagement ring. It would have to be returned to the store by the man proposing or resold. What Diana knew went with her to her grave.

but we know that she said she would take a ring if he offered it..

[sandy]

She never said it publicly. If he meant it as an Engagement Ring, I doubt she'd have accepted it.

She never got a proposal. Even if she put it on her right finger and she said no to the proposal it would not be the engagement ring. It would be a gift.

[LouisFerdinand]

In King Charles III, Anthony Holden wrote: "His (Charles') was the first unarranged marriage of a Prince of Wales in British history. But was it?" 
Anthony Holden continues: 'In many ways,' said Harold Brooks-Baker, editor of Brooke's Peerage, 'it was an arranged marriage. He needed a lovely wife, and she (Diana) fitted the bill.'     
Did Prince Charles have an arranged marriage?

[Curryong]

In King Charles III, Anthony Holden wrote: "His (Charles') was the first unarranged marriage of a Prince of Wales in British history. But was it?" 
Anthony Holden continues: 'In many ways,' said Harold Brooks-Baker, editor of Brooke's Peerage, 'it was an arranged marriage. He needed a lovely wife, and she (Diana) fitted the bill.'     
Did Prince Charles have an arranged marriage?

The circumstances leading up to the marriage of Charles and Diana have been discussed here and on other forums ad nauseum, as you know.

No, it wasn't a formal arranged marriage but Charles felt under pressure to marry from the media, the country and allegedly from his father, as most had fallen in love with Lady Di and found her eminently suitable as a future Princess of Wales.

Charles did not have the bond with Diana that he did with Camilla PB his long term friend, love and mistress, but could not hold out under pressure and so he proposed, leading to years of misery for himself and his wife.

[Princess Cassandra]

The circumstances leading up to the marriage of Charles and Diana have been discussed here and on other forums ad nauseum, as you know.

No, it wasn't a formal arranged marriage but Charles felt under pressure to marry from the media, the country and allegedly from his father, as most had fallen in love with Lady Di and found her eminently suitable as a future Princess of Wales.

Charles did not have the bond with Diana that he did with Camilla PB his long term friend, love and mistress, but could not hold out under pressure and so he proposed, leading to years of misery for himself and his wife.

I think he was attracted to her and maybe in love when he was dating her. As you point out, it wasn't an arranged marriage, but it was very similar to one. There seem to be a few royal marriages in history that have the couple being attracted and comfortable with a "suitable" or "acceptable" partner. Some were successful and some were disasters. 

[QueenAlex]

I think he was attracted to her and maybe in love when he was dating her. As you point out, it wasn't an arranged marriage, but it was very similar to one. There seem to be a few royal marriages in history that have the couple being attracted and comfortable with a "suitable" or "acceptable" partner. Some were successful and some were disasters.

Some were indeed successful.  A lot of Victoira's family made what I'd call "sensible" marriages, where they were not madly in love but got to know their parnters as well as was possible in thtat very restricted society.. but they met at royal events and family get togethters.. and many of them worked out pretty well.  People did not "fall in love" but they grew intot a comfortable affectionate relationshp. QUeen Mary married George V after her fianc? Eddy had died.. She was pretty certainly not in love with Eddy, but she grew to love George and although they had different interests, their marriage worked out pretty well.

[LouisFerdinand]

If Lady Diana had not accepted Charles' proposal, how many other aristocratic young ladies under the age of thirty were there for the Prince to consider as a possible wife?

[Curryong]

Do you want us to count them all?  :D I don't know how many there were, but I would suggest that (a) in contrast to even twenty years before, the number of young aristo women who were (a) anxious to become members of the BRF (b) whose careers/professions  were sufficiently uninteresting for them to jump at the chance of accepting a proposal from the POW instead, and (c) and most importantly, whose previous love lives would pass the most meticulous tests the British media could produce, were rapidly declining with each year that passed.

[QueenAlex]

Do you want us to count them all?  :D I don't know how many there were, but I would suggest that (a) in contrast to even twenty years before, the number of young aristo women who were (a) anxious to become members of the BRF (b) whose careers/professions  were sufficiently uninteresting for them to jump at the chance of accepting a proposal from the POW instead, and (c) and most importantly, whose previous love lives would pass the most meticulous tests the British media could produce, were rapidly declining with each year that passed.

I don't think that most debby girls at that time were going in for careers.  Some did, but mostly I think they still took little jobs like Diana's nursery job, to fill in the time before they married.  I think that in the later 70s upper class girls still did not usually go to University or have a career.   but I think that probably quite a few would not want to marry into the RF and have the stress of that public life.. whereas probably in the late 1950s  had Charles been old enough to marry, there would have been a lot more "gels" who were reasonably keen to marry him...
And yes by the late 70s i'd say that most upper class girls of 20 plus would have had an active love life that would have made for difficulties..

[Princess Cassandra]

I don't think that most debby girls at that time were going in for careers.  Some did, but mostly I think they still took little jobs like Diana's nursery job, to fill in the time before they married.  I think that in the later 70s upper class girls still did not usually go to University or have a career.   but I think that probably quite a few would not want to marry into the RF and have the stress of that public life.. whereas probably in the late 1950s  had Charles been old enough to marry, there would have been a lot more "gels" who were reasonably keen to marry him...
And yes by the late 70s i'd say that most upper class girls of 20 plus would have had an active love life that would have made for difficulties..

...and really, how double standard, hypocritical and ridiculous was that!

[QueenAlex]

...and really, how double standard, hypocritical and ridiculous was that!

by the 70s yes, but not earlier.  Contraception  had made it safe for girls to engage in a sex life before marriage....

[oak_and_cedar]

I don't think the marriage was 'arranged' in an unofficial way. Maybe prince Charles liked Diana and thought her suitable not just as a future queen, but as a wife for him also. And he was right. Diana was great.

The problem, imo, was his relationship with Camilla. But it's all water under the bridge now anyways.

[QueenAlex]

I don't think the marriage was 'arranged' in an unofficial way. Maybe prince Charles liked Diana and thought her suitable not just as a future queen, but as a wife for him also. And he was right. Diana was great.

The problem, imo, was his relationship with Camilla. But it's all water under the bridge now anyways.

the problem was that he and Diana were incompatible.  They had few interests in common, there was a big age gap, they have different ideas abuot life, he being old fashioned and her being more modern minded.. 
Yes he probably thougt that Diana was young and undeveloped but that she had things in common with him, she shared his views and she was a warm attractive girl whom he was attracted to, and that there were foundations to build a marriage on.   but He was wrong abuot that.

[oak_and_cedar]

I don't think he was wrong about that.  I think they had alot in common with regards to values and interests. Certainly they different in opinion and interests in some ways. But that's normal.

I also think they complemented each other.

[LouisFerdinand]

Even though he had royal events scheduled, do you think it might have been helpful if Prince Charles had spent more time with Princess Diana?

[QueenAlex]

I don't think he was wrong about that.  I think they had alot in common with regards to values and interests. Certainly they different in opinion and interests in some ways. But that's normal.

I also think they complemented each other.

Yes in some ways they did, as co workers.... in that she had a talent for mixing with people and he was more capable of doing backroom work and the serious speeches...but they found it hard to work together because in their pirvate life, they had so little in common to build their relationship and they got on each others' nerves and rubbed each other up the wrong way...
Both of them found that..
Some couples can have a good personal relationship, based on what seems like very little to an outsider.. but they were not able to find a good personal relationship...
He liked older people.. he looked to the past for solutions to problems... whereas Diana was not a thinker anyway, and preferred her own contemporaries.. She had married young and when she was a little older, she wanted to go out and enjoy herself dancing and having fun with young men and women of her own age.  She found Charles' and his older friends boring.
They both meant well and tried to use their high position to do good, but Charles was inclined to agonise about things and to go on about things that Diana while in theory admiring him for caring, found boring.
Diana was prone to depression and Charles while he tried to care for her, found it hard to know what to do for her...
They both loved the children but Charles was more conscious of who the children were, and while he was a loving and not a strict father was more conscious that they could not misbehave In public without the RF looking bad...so there was tension over that as well..

[oak_and_cedar]

I think they had things in common and complemented each other in other ways.

It wasn't that only PC liked classical music and Diana only pop music etc. It wasn't that black and white. It's possible for someone to like city life but also enjoy the countryside every now and then. Compromises could have been made. That's part of marriage, meeting someone half way, IMO.

[QueenAlex]

I think they had things in common and complemented each other in other ways.

It wasn't that only PC liked classical music and Diana only pop music etc. It wasn't that black and white. It's possible for someone to like city life but also enjoy the countryside every now and then. Compromises could have been made. That's part of marriage, meeting someone half way, IMO.

But they didn't make compromises.  She tried to like thte country life, she had given a good impression durng their courtship that she did love the country but once they were married she changed.  She didn't like it, she was miserable when Charles was out hunting or shooting.  She didn't want to go with him and she didn't want him to go alone. She had to put up with weekends in the country and visits to Balmoral.. because she was C's wife.. but she got  more and more fed up with it.  Long before their official separation they were living separately, he staying most of the week at Highgrove and her only visiting at the weekend with the kids. She would stay in her room phoning friends or watching TV.  Once she and C had separated, she didn't spend any time in teh country ever again.

Diana did like classical music by the way, it was virtually the only interest she had in common with Charles.. And while in theory people can get by without much in common, they need to have SOMETHING..  or just be very lucky and be able to get on well with someone who doesn't share ones interests.  Charles and Diana didnt have any core material to work on hardly, and they rubbed each other up the wrong way.  She was ill, depressed and needy.  He could be thin skinned and insensitive at times.  His work was very important to him and she didnt share his passion for it.   SHe was lonley if he wasnt' there but when he was there,  they didn't have much to talk about, and thtey got on each other's nerves..

[LouisFerdinand]

Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?

[oak_and_cedar]

But they didn't make compromises.  She tried to like thte country life, she had given a good impression durng their courtship that she did love the country but once they were married she changed.  She didn't like it, she was miserable when Charles was out hunting or shooting.  She didn't want to go with him and she didn't want him to go alone. She had to put up with weekends in the country and visits to Balmoral.. because she was C's wife.. but she got  more and more fed up with it.  Long before their official separation they were living separately, he staying most of the week at Highgrove and her only visiting at the weekend with the kids. She would stay in her room phoning friends or watching TV.  Once she and C had separated, she didn't spend any time in teh country ever again.

Diana did like classical music by the way, it was virtually the only interest she had in common with Charles.. And while in theory people can get by without much in common, they need to have SOMETHING..  or just be very lucky and be able to get on well with someone who doesn't share ones interests.  Charles and Diana didnt have any core material to work on hardly, and they rubbed each other up the wrong way.  She was ill, depressed and needy.  He could be thin skinned and insensitive at times.  His work was very important to him and she didnt share his passion for it.   SHe was lonley if he wasnt' there but when he was there,  they didn't have much to talk about, and thtey got on each other's nerves..

She didn't have a problem with Balmoral as such, in my opinion. She wanted to see more of her husband and was worried about him and his other 'relationship' with Camilla, IMO. Her exasperation was with the situation in her marriage, and not primarily because of being in Scotland.

Remember, Diana grew up in Norfolk and Althorp so she was accustomed to that lifestyle. There are pictures of her going for walks and participating in events with regards to hunting (or whatever it's called) in the early nineties. By then her marriage was practically over so she participated out of her own volition. That to me indicates some degree of easiness with that lifestyle, and that it wasn't necessarily feigned.
Double post auto-merged: June 22, 2020, 05:21:32 AM

Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?

I wonder how much Diana confided in them about the marriage in the first years?

[Curryong]

Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?

Probably Sarah wondered that, IMO, but just let it happen. I've got a feeling that Charles was too old fashioned in his ways for her, as well. I think Jane is an optimist and may have hoped for the best. However we shall never know, as not a word has passed either sisters' lips regarding their attitude at that time. Of course they were very wrapped in their own lives then as well, Sarah hadnt been married long at the time of the Charles/Diana engagement, and Jane was a young mum.

[QueenAlex]

She didn't have a problem with Balmoral as such, in my opinion. She wanted to see more of her husband and was worried about him and his other 'relationship' with Camilla, IMO. Her exasperation was with the situation in her marriage, and not primarily because of being in Scotland.

Remember, Diana grew up in Norfolk and Althorp so she was accustomed to that lifestyle. There are pictures of her going for walks and participating in events with regards to hunting (or whatever it's called) in the early nineties. By then her marriage was practically over so she participated out of her own volition. That to me indicates some degree of easiness with that lifestyle, and that it wasn't necessarily feigned.
Double post auto-merged: June 22, 2020, 05:21:32 AM

She had to participate in a certain amount of hosting shooting parties , rural life and occasionally joining in a bit..  She was C's wife and as such, it was expected taht she woudl accompay him to Balmoral and Sandringham and   host parties at Highgrove for his friends and as the boys grew up, tehy wanted to shoot etc so she coudl not get away from it all.   She was accustomed to the rural lifestyle but its clear as an adult she didn't enjoy it.
DUring the holiday she took with Rosa Monkton, she said to her friend that the boys were at Balmoral "out kiling things" and that she was on a sunshine holiday, and that she knew about the "killing things" because she had been brought up ot that lifestyle but it was clear that she didn't like it and while she didn't stop the boys shooting, she didnt' really want to be around it.  ..
Not that she had any real objections to shooting or hunting but she jsut found it boring.. and wishes that she did not have to go to Highgrove every weekend..
She did dislike Balmoral once she was C's wife..  It was probalby exciting when she had a weekend there as C's invitee, but that was the charm of novelty and being with the POW.    Once she was part of the family, and realised on her honeymoon that this was going to be a big part of her life from now on, she clearly found it pretty depressing and she was increasingly depressed, unhappy and bulimic.    She didn't like the house party, but the queen seems to have siad that she would have to "buck up" and learn to participate in the social duties and make the best of it. 
She hated C being out shooting, she didn't want to go stalking or shooting with him.. and on one occasion, Charles had to get one of his aides to "babysit" her because she was so miserable.. and it is pretty clear that she just hated being there, was realising that her marriage was not going to be the romanitc idyll she expected, and didn't like rural life.  She had to put up with it over teh years but once she and C split up she never had a country home...
Double post auto-merged: June 22, 2020, 08:32:38 AM

Probably Sarah wondered that, IMO, but just let it happen. I've got a feeling that Charles was too old fashioned in his ways for her, as well. I think Jane is an optimist and may have hoped for the best. However we shall never know, as not a word has passed either sisters' lips regarding their attitude at that time. Of course they were very wrapped in their own lives then as well, Sarah hadnt been married long at the time of the Charles/Diana engagement, and Jane was a young mum.

I suspect that they did wonder if she woudl cope but I think they felt that she would, after all she'd be Princess of Wales and Queen....

[oak_and_cedar]

She went along when it came to her spouses interests, withouth necessarily being too fond of it herself. Nothing unusual.

Diana also wanted to spend time with her spouse, again nothing unusual there.

There is no indication however of Diana hating rural life. She might have preferred the city life overall, but that doesn't mean she was averse to spending a week or two in the country.

If PC had been with her often during those vacations I'm sure she wouldn't have minded Balmoral.

[QueenAlex]

She went along when it came to her spouses interests, without necessarily being too fond of it herself. Nothing unusual.

Diana also wanted to spend time with her spouse, again nothing unusual there.

There is no indication however of Diana hating rural life. She might have preferred the city life overall, but that doesn't mean she was averse to spending a week or two in the country.

If PC had been with her often during those vacations I'm sure she wouldn't have minded Balmoral.

he was with her.. I don't know what you mean?  But part of the rural country set lifestyle is blood sports and outdoor activity...which women don't always participate in.  Diana didn't want to join in herself but she got antsty about Charles going off on his own to shoot and hunt.   She was miserable on her honeymoon in Balmoral because it hit her that this was what her life was going to be like from now on.. that there would be weeks spent in Scotland, shooting, shooting parties many weekends at Highgrove, spending Christmas in the country with the queen, and she did not like it.

She was increasingly "averse" to spending even short periods of time in the country because she didn't like it.. I don't know how anyone could feel that she liked rural life.  She wanted to go on sunshine holidays, she mitht not be averse to one weekend a month in the country but she didn't enjoy going to Highgrove every weekend, where Charles was happy with his sports and his gardens -but she wasn't.
Once she was split up from Charles she spent as Little time in the country as possible.  She toyed with renting a house on her brother's estate but that was to please the boys who were I suspect bored when stuck in London on their weekends with her...Once there were problems with the house, she gave up the idea and never seems to have tried to find a country cottage again.   When she brought the children to Highgrove to see their father, when she and he were unofficially separated, she spent all her time on her phone or watching TV....

[oak_and_cedar]

I think things should be seen with her marriage in mind. It was complicated.

IMO, if the marriage had been good she wouldn't have minded being in Balmoral for a couple of weeks.