Diana's emotional health

[amabel]

So what exactly did they not understand?  She had to cancel engagemetns because of her sickness, so presumably they understood enough to realise that she was too queasy to work...

[TLLK]

She said they did not understand. I'm just referring to the Morton book and I am only the messenger. I did not say they were comparing it with bulimia. Just that she was really sick from the pregnancy and bulimia combined. She said she could not stand up without feeling nauseous.

No you didn't mention bulimia but you implied that the royals would think that she was "mentally ill" because she had morning sickness. Diana had morning sickness. Did the royals think that made her "mentally ill" just because the women in the family never experienced it?
Double post auto-merged: August 11, 2017, 06:14:02 PM

I'm sure that most of them likely knew someone including women who were past members  of the BRF who had experienced morning sickness and understood that this was simply a symptom of early pregnancy and not a form of mental illness. While QEII, QEQM, Anne or Margaret might not have experienced it, there were other women in the family: Katherine, Brigitte, Marie Christine etc.. who might have suffered from it.

[royalanthropologist]

Morning sickness is an entirely different condition from Bulimia but they can occur simultaneously. Of course morning sickness typically ends after some time but bulimia is much harder to treat and can be one of the most elusive mental illnesses out there. Likewise postnatal depression should not be confused with bulimia or morning sickness although all three can occur in the same person.

It is also not true to say that the royal family was unsympathetic to Diana's difficulties in the new role. Once the queen actually asked the press to back off (very ironic considering what happened later with all the insider scoops that were being provided about the royal family).

The problem for the royal family was the personality changes (not morning sicknesses)...glaring at guests and refusing to speak to anyone. Sitting in the room crying for hours. Incredible mood swings. It was very confusing for them because they had always been taught to hide emotions and get on with the job. They also could not quite reconcile the jolly fun girl that was there before the engagement to the moody woman after the wedding.

[tiaras]

All of this just proves that Diana was an extremely unstable individual.

[amabel]

Of course they are different. Diana problaby had all three, bulimia, morning sickness in her pregnancy and post natal depression after William was born, and I think she was back to her bulimia soon after she had had him.. because I think she was off work for a while and had lost weight badly.

[royalanthropologist]

I rather think that the mental issues that Diana was dealing with were much more complex than a case of morning sickness. Kate has been through morning sickness but is in no way comparable to what Diana was going through. It is hard for example to imagine Kate throwing herself down the stairs whilst pregnant or pushing someone down the stairs because they were not paying enough attention to her. Those are signs of someone that is unwell beyond any morning sickness.

I also challenge the notion that Diana's problems started with Charles. They did not.  The school teachers describe a girl who was very kind and helpful but also fond of lying incessantly. She herself describes how she and Charles Spencer were "messed up". The desire for attention, the clinginess and neediness were  constant themes in her life as well as the fear of being left behind. These were themes that started before the marriage and continued well after the marriage.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Quite right @TLLK  I recall Whittaker mentioning she refused treatment saying she was alright, and then it took Carolyn Bartholomew's ultimatum to make her seek treatment, so Diana was likely to evade treatment until she was "ready" for it. Also I think @royalanthropologist is onto something about the dangers of being diagnosed with a mental illness, even in the 80s, wasnt that long ago some of the RF's relatives were shut away, then throw in the desired remarriage by Charles and she would have wanted to weigh those options carefully.

Yes the RF trotted out their docs and gave her pills, she had to refuse the morning sickness pills as she was worried about William being affected, and her getting blamed for it. I think theres an element of both sides being right about the morning sickness. The RF had to know about it given how many women get it, but I think, given their way of being, when Diana said they didnt understand about it, probably meant they just felt she was whinging about it, and should buck up. They seem very much a "walk it off and keep a stiff upper lip" kind of family, not the understanding, supportive one Diana needed at that time.

While Sarah got the proper treatment, she wasnt a member of the RF, and thus it was "ok"" for her to, but I think given the previous paragraph, they wernt big on ppl needing help.

Morning sickness is an entirely different condition from Bulimia but they can occur simultaneously. Of course morning sickness typically ends after some time but bulimia is much harder to treat and can be one of the most elusive mental illnesses out there. Likewise postnatal depression should not be confused with bulimia or morning sickness although all three can occur in the same person.

It is also not true to say that the royal family was unsympathetic to Diana's difficulties in the new role. Once the queen actually asked the press to back off (very ironic considering what happened later with all the insider scoops that were being provided about the royal family).

The problem for the royal family was the personality changes (not morning sicknesses)...glaring at guests and refusing to speak to anyone. Sitting in the room crying for hours. Incredible mood swings. It was very confusing for them because they had always been taught to hide emotions and get on with the job. They also could not quite reconcile the jolly fun girl that was there before the engagement to the moody woman after the wedding.

She likely did have all three, agreed. The queen did ask after the sweets shop snap, and she did protest the manner of the bahamas pics, also the head of The Sun was brought before parliament about a decade later over press intrusion, but it would be very interesting to have heard HOW she asked. Theres asking, and then theres "I am your Queen, you wont have a problem doing this to avoid the full weight of the realm on you, wont you?"

This idea of her helplessly hand wringing "oh please wont you leave Diana alone?" "no, you wont, oh dear, i do wish youd change your mind" seems silly to me, had she wanted it done, it would get done.

The not talking to guests was during the honeymoon due to the guests being all so much older than her and all Charles friends, a fact which was remarked to the queen and to which she said "she'll just have to buck up" The crying and mood swings were partly due to the electrolyte imbalances caused by throwing up so much of ones food, which was caused by the stress of finding all of Charles "souvenirs" of Camilla.

The comment about charles thinking it would be perfectly fine and fun for Diana to watch him do paperwork in his office when he first met her, is very telling, as he seemed to plan his whole honeymoon around that very premise. Its no wonder a girl barely 20 would not be overjoyed to have her honeymoon play out the way it did. He didnt bother to understand the other person, also shown by his remark about her popularity...why do they want to see her, all she did was say yes to me.

The jolly fun girl before the engagement was so because she thought she was marrying someone she loved, and anyone else in his life would not be a romantic rival.

[dianab]

When Carolyn Bartholomew pushed Diana to get help, Diana replied 'i cannot'... probably charles didnt want she opening up about him and camilla with a doctor. i recall years ago reading (in some book) Charles said to diana never talk about their troubles to anyone.

[tiaras]

Hardly it just shows you how differently she was treated after the ring was on her finger. Diana herself said after the wedding while at Balmoral she was now treated as if she were glass. I would love to see how you would have reacted to spending two months isolated with your new in laws and not alone with your new husband.

She would've been better off had she never married Charlie.

[amabel]

Hardly it just shows you how differently she was treated after the ring was on her finger. Diana herself said after the wedding while at Balmoral she was now treated as if she were glass. I would love to see how you would have reacted to spending two months isolated with your new in laws and not alone with your new husband.

She was't "isolated". She had had 3 weeks with Charles on Brittiania and then more weeks on holiday in Scotland. Most people would be delighted with that much time off work.  She wasn't "isolated iwht her in laws".  She was saying at a house on the estate with Charles but she was expected, like any royal wife at the time, to spend time with her inlaws on their long trip to Balmoral.  It was a house party. 
and I don't know how being "treated as if you were glass" was some kind of cruel treatement.  It would imply to me that they treated her very well.

[Trudie]

She was't "isolated". She had had 3 weeks with Charles on Brittiania and then more weeks on holiday in Scotland. Most people would be delighted with that much time off work.  She wasn't "isolated iwht her in laws".  She was saying at a house on the estate with Charles but she was expected, like any royal wife at the time, to spend time with her inlaws on their long trip to Balmoral.  It was a house party. 
and I don't know how being "treated as if you were glass" was some kind of cruel treatement.  It would imply to me that they treated her very well.

I don't know about you amabel but to me that was a pretty isolating experience. The yacht fine though there was no privacy even at dinner they had to entertain the top crew and Charles sunk into his books on the veranda if he wasn't calling Camilla, flaunting the cufflinks Camilla gave him or having her picture fall out of his diary. As for Balmoral while I am sure it is beautiful you can't exactly walk into town to explore and really sitting in the castle day after day while your new husband is out doing his solitary pursuits and having to go to dinner everynight with the inlaws I would say that is pretty isolating especially if you are only 20 and the other guests are much older than you.

[royalanthropologist]

Let us just say: if I was planning my dream honeymoon, it would not include Vanderpost, cufflinks from the mistress and state banquets. The honeymoon is for different things entirely. This one seems to have been something akin to a working holiday.

BTW, you can be in a room full of people and be the loneliest person in the world. Just like you can be very popular and still be incredibly lonely. Diana went through that. If you are socializing with people who you know are laughing behind your back and participating in the downfall of your marriage; it can be a very frustrating experience. Every smile or greeting seems like a sly dig at your situation.

My question to Charles if I had a chance to interview him would be this: why go to all the trouble to propose and marry someone when you clearly find them an irritant? Seems like a very illogical way of behaving.

[amabel]

I you can't exactly walk into town to explore and really sitting in the castle day after day while your new husband is out doing his solitary pursuits and having to go to dinner everynight with the inlaws I would say that is pretty isolating especially if you are only 20 and the other guests are much older than you.

well that's normal life for a royal wife at the time. I don't believe that Chrles was "calling Camilla" or letting his photos fall out. It seems ridiculous to believe that if he took pains to conceal the realtationhip and told Di that Camilla was "just a friend" as people here keep insisting.. that he'd be openly contacting her and letting it be clear to Diana that there was something special with Camilla.
And the honeymoon may not have been what many people would choose, but it was the normal practice at the time to have a few weeks on something like Brittania, and of course that means that they were going to have to socialise with the officers, out of politeness, and to spend time at Balmoral later.  Diana should have expected that.  they had 7 or 8 weeks honeymoon for goodness sake.  Most people would find that a great privilege an would expect that there had to be some payback for having such a lot of leisure time and luxury.
Diana could have gone out with Charles, when they were at Balmoral, but she did not want to.  And she could not entertain herself while he was out..
The RF or at least the queen were not too happy with her behaviour, at Balmoral stage of the honeymoon because they expected that as a couriter's daughter, she would have known that she had social obligaitons while staying there.. and Diana clearly didn't know or didn't want to know.

[sandy]

Stephen Barry did say that Charles called Camilla several times during the honeymoon (and he was there).  Diana already expressed concern over the FG bracelet so unless Charles was totally clueless he would have known his wearing the C and C cufflinks and her seeing the photos would be upsetting. I don't see it as much of a honeymoon. At least Kate and William got a real honeymoon.

It was not a matter of wanting to. Diana did take long walks with Charles at Balmoral. But as she told Morton she could not stand up without feeling queasy when she was pregnant with William. Why would she accompany CHarles or why would he expect her to if she felt sick?

If Diana did not have the morning sickness maybe she would have been more cooperative and the royals would not have been "disappointed." If they were "disappointed" in her because she felt sick they are a very cold bunch.

[amabel]

I wouldnt' take what S Barry says too seriously.  He was known to make claims and then say they weren't true.
I don't know of Dianas' "being so sick she couldn't stand up" when she was on honeymoon, she was only JUST pregnant, so I find it hard to believe she could be so ill at such an early stage. 
She spent a whole day with one of C's staff, while Charles was out shooting, and there was no indication from his narration of being with her, that she was ill or practically unable to stand with morning sickness.. just that she was very bored and unhappy.  if she was so unwell, then surely the simplest thing would have been for her to go to bed and rest rather than wanting company.
and the RF weren't disappointed with her because she was sick.. as you know.  They were disappointed - or at least the queen expressed annoyance.. because Diana didn't want to join in the socialising.  She said "there she is glowering and the only time she brightens up is when Charles speaks to her" and when an aide responded that perhaps Diana wasnt' feeling very lively or chatty because so many of the guests were older than her, the queen said that "Diana would have to get used to it".

[sandy]

Well he did say it. I believe him. Charles was contacting and seeing Camilla and they were known to meet at the hunts to together and house parties. Well she was ill at the early stage, why would she fake morning sickness or pretend to feel sick? People like to feel good and healthy.  She had to go to the formal dinners with the royals or she would be seen as "rude."  The Queen should have been more understanding with the young woman who just joined the family. I think it cold blooded for a mother in law to be so not understanding or empathizing with her new daughter in law. It does make the Queen look bad not Diana, IMO. Diana was just finding her way. I think she should have had alone time with her husband, who would help explain things to her about expectations that his mother had and so on. Diana did feel sick on the honeymoon, why would she lie about it?

[royalanthropologist]

I am pretty sure if Diana had asked to be excused on account of morning sickness, they would have obliged. What irritated them was glaring at guests and then only talking to Charles. That is inappropriate behavior for a house guest. Nobody was complaining that Diana had morning sickness, that was just Diana's take on it to mask the fact that they were complaining about other aspects of the changes in her personality.

Diana was cataloging all sorts of complaints about virtually everybody she was meeting. Either they were ignoring her or coming on too strongly. Either they were dismissive of her or treating her as if she was fragile. She was not happy with Charles' friends because they had too much influence on him and treated him with deference.  Diana just not set up for the court of either the queen or Charles and it showed in virtually everything she did. She could not stomach the Edwardian life and rebelled. They just ignored her, thinking she was a silly odd girl.

I also blame Charles for arranging a honeymoon that involved relatives. That is just asking for trouble. The queen is a monarch with all the attendant dignities. She is not some ordinary mother in law. So you can anticipate that a young girl of 20 would be intimidated by "the presence".

Underneath it all Diana was fighting internal battles. She had realized that Charles was deeply, deeply emotionally attached to Camilla. In her youthful desperation, she tried to keep his attention through stunts and manipulation so that he could get away from Camilla. That just irritated Charles more. Someone once wrote that it was like torturing bambi. It would have been far better not to have proposed to a girl that had a school-girl type of crash on a man who was elsewhere attached.

[amabel]

I don't recall Diana or anybody saying she glared at people at Balmoral nor displayed hostility towards them. She did say she had rows with Charles over Camilla. I she probably was uncomfortable though with the situation. Some sources say that the royals did not "understand" why Diana felt sick and were of the 'let's get on with it' mentality.

Right the queen is a big monster who would force a sick pregnant girl to wrok when she wasn't abel to.

[TLLK]

Plus the aristocrats have a very bad history of dealing with mental illness. They tend to want to lock them up until they die. It was in Diana's interest never to be diagnosed as having a mental illness so she had to put up appearances and live in denial for as long as possible.

I believe that in the late 70's and early 80's that many people from all levels of society in the western world were still uncomfortable with acknowledging and discussing any form of mental illness. Unfortunately the stigma exists today with some being reluctant to accept that even mild conditions ie: all forms of depression, anxiety and hyperactivity along with more severe ones ie: eating disorders are in fact mental illnesses and have been acknowledged as such for decades.

I'm hopeful that in time more members of the public will be able to accept the idea that there is no shame in acknowledging a diagnosis and accepting assistance from qualified mental health care professionals. 

[TLLK]

Eating Disorders are Serious Mental Illnesses

"Recent research on eating disorders supports the proposition that these are serious mental disorders with significant morbidity and mortality," says Dr. Tom Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health. "Based on genetic and neuroimaging studies, eating disorders appear to have a biological basis, analogous to what is observed in other serious mental disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and addictive diseases. All of these illnesses, including eating disorders, need to be addressed as biomedical as well as behavioral problems if we are to help people recover."

In summary, eating disorders are biologically-based, serious mental illnesses because:

• There is medical and scientific evidence that anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are as heritable as other psychiatric conditions (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and depression) that are considered biologically based.
• The behaviors of restricting food intake, bingeing and purging have been shown to alter brain structure, metabolism and neurochemistry in ways that make it difficult for individuals to discontinue the behaviors.
• Eating disorders are associated with impairment in emotional and cognitive functioning that greatly limits life activities.
• Eating disorders are life-threatening illnesses and are associated with numerous medical complications. Mortality rates for anorexia nervosa are the highest of any psychiatric disorder.

@sandy-Please try to realize that mental health care professionals do not share your view that these patients including Diana  are "not seriously ill." These are life threatening mental illnesses at any stage. Yes she was functioning to some level but make no mistake that she was very ill.  Untreated by qualified professionals they can result in chronic health related issues or death.Diana's friend and former flatmate Carolyn Bartholomew certainly understood this because she had to resort to telling Diana that she'd shared her condition with the press if she didn't seek professional help.

Now I do understand your objection to those  authors who have practiced arm chair psychiatry and labeled Diana with BPD. The only people qualified to render that diagnosis are psychiatrists who would have treated her and are bound by privacy laws to not revel that information without patient consent.

[sandy]

Bulimia is life threatening. Diana did not reach the level of Karen Carpenter whose eating disorder caused her death. DIana never was at the point of being institutionalized. The treatment she needed was for a doctor to get to the root of the problem, not be fed valium

I am wondering if Sarah Spencer ever had a discussion with Diana about her own eating disorder. And was Carolyn finally the one who referred Diana to Dr. Lipsedge or did Sarah finally recommend Lipsedge?

Diana did not have BPD. I think she would have admitted having it.  What Junor did was vicious, she has no "inside information." She cribbed the notes of Dimbleby who used a College Text to "diagnose Diana" as a way to "help Charles. He did not use the notes in his book because he would have been sued. Junor appropriated the notes for the book Charles Victim or Villain.

In a way, Junor used the "diagnosis" as a way to "defend" Charles and Camilla's actions. In a way, Junor put a stigma on people having BPD. I find what she did offensive.

[TLLK]

Bulimia is life threatening. Diana did not reach the level of Karen Carpenter whose eating disorder caused her death

Thank you for acknowledging that Bulimia is a serious and possibly life threatening form of mental illness.

Karen Carpenter's struggles with anorexia nervosa and her death were a turning point in the public's acceptance that this form of mental illness should be discussed.

http://time.com/3685894/karen-carpenter-anorexia-death/

[sandy]

I did not say it was not serious. I said that Diana was not at the point of being institutionalized. Thankfully she got the right physician to help her. But what happened to communication in the Spencer family? Would not Sarah and Diana have compared notes. Did Sarah not care? Strange.

[TLLK]

She was not "severely" ill.

@sandy-This is what you stated. Diana had an eating disorder. All eating disorders are considered by mental health professionals to be a form of a serious and severe mental illness.  I have not seen Diana's medical records (nor do I expect to see them) so none of know if she was ever hospitalized even briefly for treatment. I  will continue toacknowledge what psychiatrist state about about bulimia and other eating disorders.

What is Bulimia?

Bulimia Nervosa is a psychological and severe life-threatening eating disorder described by the ingestion of an abnormally large amount of food in short time period, followed by an attempt to avoid gaining weight by purging what was consumed.

https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/information/bulimia

[amabel]

Diana said it. She was pregnant. Diana herself told Morton she had to leave the dinner table because of nausea.  Only Diana knew how she felt so how could the others "report" on it?  I doubt the Queen would come out and talk about her daughter in law's morning sickness or anyone else there. Kate was in the early stages when she was hospitalized with the severe morning sickness. Charles never commented on Diana's not going out hunting. In fact, in the documentary about Diana, the news reports  at the time of the engagement said it was known she did not hunt or ride. Everybody knew it. It should not have been a surprise to Charles and his family.  Kate was able to do the royal duties after the earliest stages of the pregnancy. So if she was sick in the earliest stages, why would not Diana have been? Back then the news reports did not talk about Diana's morning sickness, times have changed, Kate's condition was reported to the media, including the symptoms and everything.

well you've impled that the RF were unkind and heartless in not understainding that Diana was sick during her pregnancy.  But you are now saying she didn't talk about it so how could they know?  ad as I have pointed out, she DID cancel engagemetnts because of pregnancy sickness so she was not being pushed to work when she was not well enough.  I don't believe that the RF were "unkind" to Diana about her pregnancy problems or that they pressed her to work when she wasn't abel.  If she had to leave the table becuase of sickness, I'm sure they did not criticise her. 
and just because Kate had HG (not normal morning sickness) doesn't mean that Diana necessarily had morning sickness.  Women are diferent and not all of them have nausea.
As for Charles, he didn't expect Diana to HUNT, but she had watched him shooting and fishing during their courtship so he presumably hoped and expected that she would continue to enjoy these sports with him after marriage.. but Diana didn't want to go.  When she stayed home with Michael Colborne, it was not, as far as I know because she felt sick.. it was because she didn't want to go out with the guns with Charles, but didn't want to stay behind alone.