During 1987, rumors over marital difficulties spread as more and more of the duties of Princess Diana and Prince Charles were carried out individually.
Do you think that if The Prince and Princess of Wales had performed more royal duties together these rumors would not have occurred?
^^^Hard to say because BRF members including the happily married couples do carry out a number of solo engagements on behalf of their patronages. Whispers that all was not well with the Wales' marriage had already begun circulating. Having more joint appearances might have delayed the news a little, but the couple had already begun their extramarital affairs. So it was just a matter of time before the news that they were having trouble would be in the press.
There were rumours that Diana and Charles were not getting on as early as 1983. A few journalists hinted at it but the majority couldn't bear the thought of the fairy tale disintegrating and so kept their mouths shut. Royal Engagements are put in place as much as a year in advance and individual patronages can't be ignored. Sooner or later the truth would have come out. Diana tried very hard to present a smiling face everywhere she went but by the later 1980s the truth was becoming blindingly obvious.
As I understand it, trouble started right from the honeymoon. Diana would spend hours crying and sometimes Charles would sit with her without a word being spoken. Later on after the honeymoon they went into their houses but again the rows were frequent and violent. By the time the press learnt or hinted anything, the marriage was dead or dying. In fact by the time the hints were appearing, Charles was in the process of permanently returning to Camilla.
Charles and Diana kept up appearances and even had photos taken of them looking happy together. Dancing together and so on. Charles never really "left" Camilla they were in touch speaking on the phone and meeting up at social events and hunts. Diana's crying or the length of time doing so is subject to speculation. Diana was sick at Balmoral due to morning sickness, hormonal changes of her pregnancy, and the bulimia. She admitted that. Junor speaks on Charles' behalf and many of these stories came from Junor who is favorable to Charles. Barry did say that Charles would call up Camilla on the honeymoon and C and C were seen at hunts together. Diana and Charles as Diana said had "filthy rows" over Camilla. I think Charles made it clear back then that he preferred Camilla to Diana. There was a "happy" time for them on the honeymoon when the two made the trip to the Caribbean. Photos were taken unawares and there was no crying they looked happy. The problems started IMO when Charles more and more resented Diana's popularity and wrote whining letters to his friends who started bashing Diana to him and leaking stories. Once Charles went to them with his problems it was downhill all the way.
I quote
@sandy "The problems started IMO when Charles more and more resented Diana's popularity and wrote whining letters to his friends who started bashing Diana to him and leaking stories. Once Charles went to them with his problems it was downhill all the way."
So really it was not Camilla that undermined the marriage but Charles' jealousy and the leaking of stories by his friends? That is a novel idea but I do not believe it.
If we are to believe Diana's own words, the problems happened throughout the marriage including the honeymoon. They were never any "happy moments" according to Morton. Unless of course you are saying that Diana lied about that too?
Camilla was a "fall back" for Charles. But at the same time he had those jealousy issues of his own wife. Writing his friends that 'all she did was say yes to me.' They did not rally around and say, hey Charles work on the marriage, they started trashing the wife to score points.
Sarah Bradford wrote that that was a major turning point when Charles' friends started turning on Diana. She maintains as late as 1983 there was still a chance for the marriage.
When Diana and Charles left Balmoral and the in-laws, and they were alone in the Caribbean, Diana never reported there being "rows" there and photographs show they were getting along with plenty of PDA. There had to be happy moments or the children would not have been conceived.
Oh come on, Royal! Of course people look back bitterly on the ruins of a marriage.
However, the couple weren't perpetually miserable and unhappy from the wedding reception onwards. There are photos of them at a party for example with Diana wearing false breasts and sitting on Charles's knee and both laughing their heads off. Staff can remember them laughing and racing each other up the stairs to the nurseries when Harry and Will were being put to bed.
Others can remember Charles early in the marriage patting her bottom on engagements and once, in Oz, to the delight of the crowd running off after a tree planting, with Diana laughing and thrown over his shoulder. A pregnant Diana and Charles were photographed smooching in the sea on holiday. Diana herself said they were very close during the pregnancy with Harry...There were plenty of occasions when they were happy.
Double post auto-merged: October 06, 2017, 03:22:51 PM
Delete.
I agree very much with your analysis
@Curryong. That is why I was never convinced by the "brood mare" stuff. I wish more people realize that Morton was really the reflections of an unhappy woman who was facing the prospect of a dead marriage and listed only the bad things in it rather than a factual account of her marriage.
I am also glad that
@sandy recognizes the fact that Camilla was a fallback position when the marriage was facing difficulties. Diana has never said that Charles was sleeping with her throughout the marriage. That was something that was made up and perpetuated by some people in order to pile on the drama.
This was a relationship that started hitting the rocks when each side failed to compromise with the other or understand their needs. Diana wanted Charles to break off all contact with Camilla and he said no. Charles wanted Diana to be silent about his attachment to Camilla and she said no. The other things about jealousy were incidentals that could have been overcome with compromise, understanding and of course real love.
Well Camilla being around gave Charles a "safety net" which was IMO a bad thing since she gave him less incentive to work on the marriage to DIana. She was "there" for him. Charles never really was out of touch with Camilla.
I think Charles wanted the heir and spare and that was that. It is telling he wanted to second to be a girl which to me meant he did not want to try for a girl. Parents having say two children born first of the same sex will say "well let's try for the girl" or "let's try for the boy." Unless they strictly wanted two children and that was that. With IVF today some parents can have twins one of each, like the Clooneys did and like Prince Albert did.
I still think Charles real love was himself. Considering how he tried to arrange things so he could have his cake and eat it too. A man truly in love would not even think of marrying another woman.
Was there not a happy picture of Charles and Diana taken at her brother Charles' 21st birthday?
There was a lot of problems on the honeymoon, of couse were left to conjecture as to all the causes, but my take is she started to realize that she wasnt going to win over Charles heart like she though she was going to. That Charles envisioned going back to as much of her bachelor life as possible, and things like the dinners at balmoral with all of Charles older friends and I think she felt very isolated.
While the royals are never touchy feely at the best of times, they have several traditions and customs at Balmoral like the xmas presents being as cheap and tacky as possible, not sitting in Queen Victorias chair, etc. that she wasnt aware of and I think rather than finding them cute, it highlighted how out of place she felt. Charles could have really helped her out there giving her the lay of the land, rather than going off each morning staking deer or painting. She likely felt that Charles wanted a vacation from her as much as his role on the honeymoon. (most men would have opted for 3 months in Fiji with her than Britannia/Balmoral)
AS far as the "good times" prior to Harry's birth, I think Charles knew he had to produce kids and tried to make the best of it, and as part of "the game" he was likely going to be faithful until a male heir was born and then after that, all bets are off, and that does mesh with Diana telling her dance teacher/beautician etc of Camilla in 83/84, etc.
Without pictures, etc of course the real date will never been known as I dont see C&C coming clean on it, and theres likely a grey band from right after the wedding to 1986 depending on who you support, etc. and what you think constitutes adultery (emotional vs physical).
I do agree with
@royalanthropologist that one has to look at morton through the lens of a very unhappy woman as far as her marriage was going, (ie when ppl say things like always, never, etc. its more their point of view than the actual situation) and to provide cover for the time bombs of Hewitt and Gilbey coming out with Camilla being unknown except by the media who were fearful of printing anything.
I also agree with the positions that Camilla was always a fall back both in terms of not putting the proper work in the marriage, and giving Diana the sense that someone else was "around" even if only in his heart and mind.
Also the idea that Charles truest love being himself is very accurate, even Camilla is only around in so far as he calls it "her great achievement is to love him" notice he doesnt say much about HIS achievements having anything to do with loving her, I think he does, as far as she fits into his life as a willing supplicant, but god forbid if she had any actual needs for herself, in that case I think youd see Charlie make himself scarce.
Very true, Duch_. Someone who says 'Your greatest achievement is loving me' and 'All she (Diana) ever did was say Yes to me' (regarding his wife's popularity), has an ego reaching the levels of the Sun King, Louis XIV, IMO! Charles did allow himself to tolerate a wheelchair-bound Camilla a couple of times in previous years, but God forbid if she ever developed emotional problems or if she had ever become more popular than him in the public eye.
What Charles requires, wants, in a wife (and now apparently has) is a person who regularly props up his ego, constantly tells him how marvellous/wise/all-knowing he is, listens to his musings on his mentors' works, fits in with his lifestyle without making demands, fixes awkward situations, gives plenty of imaginative sex, enjoys the things he does, puts up with his workaholic routine without complaint (even when it impacts on family occasions) ...Crikey, no wonder Camilla needs a bolthole!
Once again
@Curryong is spot on about Charles' requirements in a wife. There was no way a willful, headstrong girl of 19 was ever going to fill those requirements. Camilla may not entirely be happy with the situation but she is old enough and cynical enough to know that you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
The bolthole was a particularly clever idea on her part because Charles has to effectively woo her every weekend. She too has a fallback position so he is more than happy to compromise. When he throws a tantrum, she makes herself scarce and then he pines for her. Moreover we hear Camilla speaks to APB on the phone every single day and that keeps Charles sufficiently jealous. I bet he really wants to know what they talk about but dares not ask.
Besides, I actually do think Charles loves Camilla so he will put up with much more from her than he ever tolerated with Diana. You just have to look at how many jewels he showers on her despite that she is in 70th year. With Diana he was stringy and reluctant, but with Camilla no expense is spared. Even on foreign trips, Camilla gets to acclimatize and is given all sorts of considerations that Diana never had.
And of course, Camilla is non-negotiable. Even his sons have to play ball or face estrangement. With Diana, she came down to third or fourth in his priorities.
Interesting posts, Diana was wilful and headstrong, even at 19, when after their first meeting Charles assumed Diana would be over the moon to watch him do office work at BP, she said "bugger I do mind sitting there while you work" :lol: can you imagine Kate saying she wants the word "obey" taken out of her wedding vows if they hadnt ever been taken out before? To me, that right there should have told the grey suits what they were going to be in for, and thus "deserve" all the lumps they got, media wise totally cucking up the foundation of the marriage.
Even her father said shortly after the wedding, that Charles would soon learn that Diana gets what she wants, well that had mixed results. While she wanted to fit into the family and could be shy, demure and insecure, she could also draw on that Fermoy steely side, which while strong, could also be brittle as well.
As for Charles shouldnt have married her if he didnt love her, well, that all comes down to what ppls expectations of the marriage were. I suspect there was so much miscommunication, trying to hide intentions, and conceal things on both sides, that it was going to be a disaster.
Had the palace not tried to sell the fairytale aspect of it (likely to get the country out of the jam it was in politically, sort of a domestic foreign tour if you will, flying the flag for its own subjects.) then the love match angle wouldnt have played into it so much, and ppl might have entertained a more dynastic marriage.
However, the appeal of Diana with ppl would have nixed that pretty quick though, ppl wanted the best for her.
As for jewels, etc. I think RA is onto something with the fact that none of the parties was interested in the other solely based on personal merit. Although the idea of no one giving Diana a second thought if she wasnt PoW im assuming is referring to media hype, as quite a few men were interested in her (I can say personally I had no idea who she was when cupids bow struck home, she could have been the binmans daughter for all i cared).
Charles can afford another divorce financially, the duchy has done well, but I think Camilla is far too clever to go that route, shes going to take far more by being his wife than being a divorcee again. Shes going to make Charles pay for 30 plus years of having to stay in the shadows, and he seems all too willing to pay. However publicity wise it would be a disadter for a year or so if he was to divorce her as it would re-dredge up Diana, and all the talk of it being all for nothing the Camilla thing if it ended in divorce. If it were to occur right after the Queens death that would make it even worse for Charles.
I think as close to or as far as Charles can love another woman he does "love" Camilla, or at least he loves what she does for him, and that she puts up with him. In many ways being ruled out in the 70s was a blessing for Camilla in that she had a lot of expectations and "heavy lifting" dynastically wise taken off her plate. Diana had to do the "hard" work of being on display, bearing the press, the day to day of being royal, having his children, etc.
With Diana wanting, but not assured of marrying a royal, she dabbled with "regular" men a bit, and I think she saw her tremendous value to them, and likely from her friends saw how more ordinary folks get on, and that likely fed along with the cartland books, that it would be a marriage like others with the wife calling the shots.
While she had a clear idea of how to get Charles to the alter, she wasnt prepared for keeping the marriage going, kind of like an army that takes over a country but finds that running it is an entirely different matter, and isnt well suited to it with the skills that won the country.
I think she had thought how to set herself apart from the other competitors, but hadnt thought enough about the post marriage period, like the RF and the grey suits, she figured divorce was off the table, to everyones loss, as had they acted more like it was an option, both sides might have been more flexible.
Obviously, Diana fans are rightly chuffed over the whole marriage thing, esp with it not taking Charles out of running for the crown. Im not saying he shouldnt have not been able to marry Camilla, but he should have had to choose, considering he broke a solemn vow to the country, the church, in front of the RF, etc. that day in St. Pauls, so how can we believe any oath he would take at Westminster Abbey? (aside from the crown and power of running the realm that is)
I think the whole tale shows a lot of time is long and the journey uncertain, im sure you could have polled the three of them over various times and all of them would have been delighted and despondent at various times. Camilla may or may not at one time have felt bad that she couldnt provide Charles heirs, but it also took a lot of bother off her plate, and now when she does have the stress of being his royal bride, she had a lot less to worry about that Diana had to. In 1981, Diana thought she was getting the world handed to her, instead it was an apple with a worm inside, so you just never know.... :flower:
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on October 06, 2017, 12:24:47 AM
During 1987, rumors over marital difficulties spread as more and more of the duties of Princess Diana and Prince Charles were carried out individually.
Do you think that if The Prince and Princess of Wales had performed more royal duties together these rumors would not have occurred?
In the documentary 1987- A Royal year, the royal reporters, including Andrew Morton wearing a tacky tie that Di liked, were counting the amount of times they spent apart and sensed there was strong tension between them on their ski trip. Just looks she was giving charles. The joint engagements would make it too easy for reporters to sense something off about their marriage
Ski Trips were notoriously tricky for them in that regard, before that doc in "Speaking Naturally" or whatever it was called, they were quizzed about the arguments on ski holidays. While Diana liked skiing, I think she preferred the sunny holidays, add to that photo calls and likely more time around Charles in closer confines than their usual weekly routine led to frostly glances.
Why did not Queen Elizabeth II intervene? After all, she was the mother and mother-in-law.
^^^ She did intervene after the Panorama interview when she told them to get a divorce.
IMHO
@LouisFerdinand she wasn't inclined to become involved in the marital issues of other adults unless the actions of the couples put the monarchy in jeopardy. As we all know, those actions did impact the monarchy in a negative manner. By the late 1990's three of her children and their spouses were headed for divorce, but they were the ones who were involved in these relationships and knew the reasons behind their failure. She was technically the person who had to oversee the welfare of the minor children involved as all six were heirs to the throne: (In order of succession: William, Harry, Beatrice, Eugenie, Peter and Zara.) However primary custody remained with the parents and not QEII.
Now decades later would she choose to intervene should the Wales/Cornwall, Wessex, or Cambridge marriages begin to falter? It's possible but then she might choose to let the adults in the relationship deal with it without her interference.
Well, the Queens intervening then is like the fire department coming when the last embers of the burnt house are going out. Now unless she had always planned to let Charles have a divorce and accept his mistress becoming his wife from the beginning, it was jolly reckless of her to let things go, in at least C&D's marriage (arguable Andrews and Anne's as well for reputation sake, but they wernt as vital to the succession).
Unless she knows something we dont, (probably so) she took an awful risk the government wouldnt have stepped in like they did in Edwards day. At the very least she subjected the house of Windsor to be a laughing stock during the late 80s and 90s.
As far as the idea that Charles had an inexhaustible list of suitable brides is certainly not how I remember those days, even ones like Anna, and some of the others he dated, might not have been suitable to be married to. I find it hard to believe Anna had no past, but I did like her spirit. Short of Amanda, not all of the serious ones would have made it to the alter even if they were willing to.
Also, as nice as the idea of laying all their cards out to a prospective young bride, that was never going to happen. Thats where it was up to the young girl to be educated in the ways of the world, or to be attentive to the gossip about Charles and the reasons more and more girls were turning him down, what did they know that a prospective young bride didnt????
Charles could never held up under his parents pressure and the press scrutiny if he held out for true love in a suitable (by 1970s standards) package. Frankly it wasnt going to happen, he was too old and set in his ways, and it would be a rare young girl that would have mirroring interests and be able to jump through all the other hoops. Sad to say, but it had to go down the way it did, but it didnt have to be that Diana was heading in wide eyed and idealized view of marriage, if C&C wernt going to fill her in, her family and friends should have.
I do agree that had Charles asked, Camilla likely would have said yes, but he didnt, he loved the crown, and feared his parents more than he loved Camilla, otherwise, hed have made her non-negotiable then. I dont know how much it bothers her not having Charles kids, maybe at one time it did, im sure now, its likely not a big deal. For all the heartache, thats one area Diana did carry the day, sort of, in that her legacy will live on in her sons, but that was kind of the point of them having her around, but where she got them, was they didnt expect she would have such strong ideas and mold the boys in her ideas for the future monarchy, thats her crowning glory, IMO.
What could the queen do? By all accounts Charles could be quite stubborn and mistrusted both his parents and Diana as well. The only person he really listened to was his grandma and maybe Camilla. The queens response of "Charles is hopeless. I don't know what you can do". Just about sums it up. She wanted the problem to go away.
Diana used to lament that the first letter she wrote to her was to request a quick divorce from her son. How such a relationship could be used as marriage counselling service is beyond me. Camilla was telling Charles that Diana was mad and that he should get away from her. That was the quality of marital counselling he was getting.
Btw about Jessica Craig, I have never bought into the fantasy of perfect marriages. There are always issues but some people are better than others at dealing with them.
er um why on earth should the queen be a "marriage counsellor"?? Did she want to wrok for Relate?
her attitude was that Charles was a grown man and Diana a grown woman, and that if they didn't get along, they worked it out,for themselves.. and made the best of their marriage. What was she supposed to do?
I think Diana wanted her to do a "Give up Camilla or else" directive but the queen was wise enough to steer away from that. All she was hearing was Diana's version and beside Diana was not really that important when it came down to the succession once the heirs had been born. She could hardly take Diana's side against her own heir. The queen's attitude was that they should sort it out and not bother her. Diana became frustrated with the response and complained about it.
of course she was going to say "you're both grown up. You got maried, knowing that a divorce was impossible. Now it hasn't worked out, you should be adult enough to sort it out between yourselves...
Unlike some, im not suggesting the queen should have done anything because it was "the right thing to do, etc." as far as the marriage for its own sake, but that it was a matter of state. The RF and UK wanted the fairytale to continue at least on the outside.
Obviously its with a bit of hindsight, but everyone goes on about how stern and commanding the queen can be when she wants to, so I find it hard to believe that with his fear of his parents, his desire to have his mothers job, etc. that HM didnt have some levers to work with. I think it was she thought "the mouse" wouldnt chew her way out of her royal pen, so to speak. Also HM put up with PP running around and she was Queen, so I dont think she could understand Diana's need for emotional fulfillment she seeked from the marriage, and just treat it like a job.
But given how much HM feared any repeat of the abdication, or anything that looks like it, HM could have used the full wrath of the realm, and as a parent on him, had she wished to. I dont know if its her desire to stick her head in the sand, or that she knew the government would not push for Charles to be cast aside for any Camilla issues that cause her to be useless in the whole thing.
Hard to say if it was ignorance, dumb luck, or cunning ruthlessness that had the queen stand by the wayside, but they endured a 10-15 yr black eye over it in terms of the Windsors image, but I think the Queens allowing C&C to get married, is that it makes it look like the queen had it planned all along, and now the WoW looks like a minor hiccup that was all part of a multi decade plan.
Many people assumed that the queen was a reluctant convert to Camilla's cause. I have a very different view. The royal family always liked Camilla and her husband. They just kept her at arms-length for PR purposes. Once the coast was clear, they all just got along. She was after all a country woman and unlikely to challenge their system. Diana had become a thorn in their side which helped to improve their view of her rival. You just have realize the rate at which the queen keeps bestowing honors on Camilla to realize that the whole thing of "that woman does not cross the threshold" was just a PR exercise. I pity the servants that took up such a policy. They look a bit foolish now with "that woman" holding all the levers.
As for Parliamentary pressure, it would be very difficult to deny the POW his claim to the throne on account of adultery. They would look like a laughing stock given the history of the monarchy and some MPs. I know that some people would say that "they are supposed to be better" but the establishment did not like Diana or what she was doing. It was easier when she was out of the way. The opposition to Charles came primarily from female members of the public as well as opportunistic republicans who pretended to care about the long term future of the institution.
Plus like many detached parents, the queen over compensates through indulgence. I doubt she has ever had a single quarrel with Charles. She just lets him do as he pleases. Then some flunky puts it out that she has ordered him about when the reality is that she does no such thing. When Andrew wanted a role, she told him to ask Charles because she did not want to start a new war with Clarence house. I think people underestimate Charles' ability to throw a major tantrum when things do not go his way.
The recent fuss over the Queen's Secretary Sir Christopher leaving occurred when the Queen is in her 90s and didn't want rows. She's been no pushover for most of her life and for much of the last seven decades Charles was frightened of his parents' reactions to things he did.
Elizabeth has been firm with Charles on several occasions, and for years they were not exactly close. The end of his marriage distressed her. She is a very pragmatic woman, not given to a lot of reflection and from the bios I've read she has never understood her son's personality, causes etc. Their personalities are very different.
As for Camilla, although Elizabeth was quite fond of APB, I think you are ignoring the several times she was heard to murmur how she wished Camilla would leave Charles alone, or the deeply religious side of the Queen's nature. She certainly doesn't approve of adultery. Nor did the QM. I don't believe Elizabeth was or is a hypocrite and just blandly winked an eye at the Camilla situation after the divorce.
Certainly, if Elizabeth had been Queen Victoria, APB would have been posted abroad for years, told to take his wife with him, and Charles would have been ordered to make the best of things with his spouse or else. There certainly wouldn't have been any divorce.
However, this Queen believes in her adult children and grandchildren being able to make decisions in life without her interference in most instances. You can argue that this policy has meant that three marriages out of four among her children have drifted into divorce unassisted by this policy, but this is the 21st century and no other way would really work.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on October 08, 2017, 08:23:56 AM
What could the queen do? By all accounts Charles could be quite stubborn and mistrusted both his parents and Diana as well. The only person he really listened to was his grandma and maybe Camilla. The queens response of "Charles is hopeless. I don't know what you can do". Just about sums it up. She wanted the problem to go away.
Diana used to lament that the first letter she wrote to her was to request a quick divorce from her son. How such a relationship could be used as marriage counselling service is beyond me. Camilla was telling Charles that Diana was mad and that he should get away from her. That was the quality of marital counselling he was getting.
Btw about Jessica Craig, I have never bought into the fantasy of perfect marriages. There are always issues but some people are better than others at dealing with them.
The Queen was warned about Charles' relationship with Camilla before he even dated DIana. She did nothing. But probably hoped the problem with Charles and the married woman would go away when he got married. Or was in denial.
No marriage is perfect. The success depends on how hard the couple works on the marriage.
Double post auto-merged: October 09, 2017, 12:26:47 AM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on October 08, 2017, 06:23:25 AM
I think William may yet surprise many people. No mistress??? hmmm....Let us wait and see.
I think the best thing is to hope he does not ever take on a mistress for his own sake and his wife's. So a Windsor male of the next generation could hurt his spouse? I hope not.
QuoteHowever, this Queen believes in her adult children and grandchildren being able to make decisions in life without her interference in most instances.
I agree
@Curryong. I do believe that by the 1990's Elizabeth and Phillip did not want to involve themselves in the private business of other adults even if was going to cause some negative publicity. By then when Charles, Anne and Andrew were ending their marriages, QEII had seen the shift in society's view regarding divorce and had weathered the earlier divorces of Princess Margaret and their cousin the Earl of Harewood.
If she had not intervened in the failure of her sister and cousin's marriages, I don't see why she would have done so with the Wales, Phillips and Yorks. :shrug:
QEII has done some hypocritical things in her life. Whereas Wallace had to be shown the door, Camilla is welcomed. Whereas, Edward lost his throne she will hear nothing of the sort for her son. This devout Christian had no problem in relocating to Scotland so that her daughter could have a Church wedding following her divorce. Like most people, it is all very well being strict with the rules until they apply to your own children. PM was denied her romance but anything goes when you are the queen's child.
^ I don't know that Camilla was exactly welcomed by the Queen and QM during those years following Charles and Camilla's divorces. In fact, although you won't accept this, Royal, the Queen would not receive her. There was even talk for a short time of a constitutional crisis and Charles being considered unfit to head the Church of England.
In the end the Queen, a pragmatic woman, bowed to the inevitable. Charles wasn't going to give Camilla up, much though she, Elizabeth, may have wanted him to. I certainly don't feel that the Queen was happy with Charles's decisions and actions during and after the breakup of his first marriage, nor with the low point at which it all left the BRF.
Unfortunately, (from my POV) times have changed since 1936. Society's attitudes towards divorce have changed. The Queen certainly wasn't responsible for Wallis leaving the scene, and if society, the government, the realms and everyone had been for Charles to abdicate from the succession in 1997 then the Queen would have been very sad about it but I have no doubt she would have done her duty as sovereign and bowed to the wishes of the govt etc.
As for Anne marrying in Scotland it just so happens that Presbyterianism has had a different attitude to marriage in church for divorcees to the C of E. The Queen didn't facilitate this. It's been in place for a long time.
It is possible to pretend not to like someone for "PR" purposes, particularly if you are a head of state who wants to keep up appearances. I rather suspect the queen gets on far better with Camilla than she ever did with Diana. Consider: we are now in the 12th year of the C&C marriage. What was the queen's attitude and behavior to Diana in the 12th year of her marriage? How many personal honors (nothing to do with government) has the queen bestowed on Camilla during that time? How long did she take to get them? What did the queen say at the wedding of C&C when she was away from the hostile media and the Diana fans?
It was politically correct to pretend to dislike Camilla but the truth is that she is far better treated and liked in that family than Diana was (setting aside the obvious exception of Diana's own children). Why? Because she is shrewd and knows how to play the game. No trouble and you are looked after. If you bring trouble and try to change things, you are out.
They did not dislike Diana as a person but what she represented and from their point of view the unhappiness she brought in Charles' life. That family closes ranks whenever they see an enemy. Diana became the enemy and they ostracized her as a consequence. Camilla is for them a return to the safe waters of the shires and discretion. Someone commented that with the C&C, the monarchy retreated back to the countryside away from the London media glitz. Diana has no fans in that palace save for her children and maybe Princess Michael.
Queen Elizabeth II could have said to The Prince of Wales: "Charles, everything you do is noted. Pay attention to Diana! She is your wife. We have an image to uphold!"
^^^We don't know all of what was said to Charles and/or Diana during those years and I do believe that the Wales were mindful of the image that they needed to portray, but in the end it was just too difficult to keep up the pretense. Yes she could have said something very similar to your statement but remember her son and daughter-in-law were both adults, not children. Most adults stay out of other adults' relationships. QEII did listen and advise them when requested and ultimately intervened when it was obvious that a separation was not going to be the long term solution.
I dont have a dog in this fight which is an offshoot of the original thread, so as kind of an outsider, im seeing a subtext to the whole thing which has less to do with the individuals involved, but rather the nature of the "arrangements" between all parties, and does all parties involved understand the game. Once you look at it in that view, the individual parties actions make a lot more sense.
FWIW it seems like all parties, except Diana, knew and understood the game going in. We can argue if that would be right for us, or if we think its "right" or "wrong" but if it works for the involved parties, who are we to judge? (cool the jets, im not referring to Diana, dont jump on me about how it didnt work for Diana, we all know).
APB seems either OK or resigned to his fate, he slept around, so when Camilla did, it wasnt a big issue for him. Also he likes being around the mystique of royalty, either by his upbringing or by his experience with them, things that you or I might balk at, hes ok with.
The biggest "hiccup" was the outing of himself on TV, but with having children with camilla and his lifelong association with the royals, hes not going to throw it away. The divorce was what he "needed" to do to save face, and now that its done, they seem to have things much like they were before.
Im not saying what they do is the "best" "right" or "moral" thing to do, but it works for that set, we tend to forget for middle and ever lower upper class ppl, they NEED their marriage to stay together to survive financially, and they dont have the domestic help to do the chores either a husband or wife would do, that the upper class has, so marriage has a different importance for them (well most of them).
Do I think its great what Charles did, no, I dont, but aside from Diana, most of the others involved didnt object, now it could be they felt they had no choice, that would be great to find out more on, but I think the undercurrent of this debate is what he did to Diana, in that she wasnt old,educated, or experienced enough to know what was being played, and to either freely consent or refuse before it was too late, and that there was no love "payoff" in terms of either getting it from her husband or being in a position to have a stable substitute.
[gmod]To prevent any further threads being hijacked , this thread is for those who wish to discuss what happened, Why and Who was / not to blame.[/gmod]
Thank you for starting this thread
@SophieChloe. I hope that posters will choose to make use of it. :)
Well, as the old Order changes and we're in Transition time now, it seems the verdict of the British people has been clear in polling for years now, and it isn't in Charles's favour. It will be interesting to see if and when approval ratings change in the new reign, as at the moment Charles's figures for a hard working Heir consistently hover way under his mother, daughter in law and sons. About half his mother and sons, in fact.
Some of the disapproval harnesses other factors, (perceived eccentrities, interfering in the political process), but a large dollop consists of the C and D marriage, how it ended and the influence of Camilla, whose approval figures hover between 'disastrous' and 'abysmal' in spite of attempts at rehabilitation and whitewash. Good luck on changing those views in the future on a couple in their seventies with no aces to play.
I just wish the new thread had been kept on the Diana board, though :flower:
I respectfully disagree
@Duch_Luver_4ever and IMHO a neutral forum like this one is the best place to discuss the marital issues of the couple. I know I'm being overly optimistic but I believe this will keep their respective forums a place to post about each without the WWW (World War Wales) coming up in nearly every thread.
I also like this format better, as often on the Diana board a thread would start off with something innocuous like 'Diana's education' and end up being a bash-fest about her supposed lack of brain power, application, shortcomings etc. Plus, if the thread was headed by 'Diana did this, that and the other', attempts to draw attention to any culpability by Camilla or Charles would be headed off by 'We're discussing Diana, not Charles!'
^^^And likewise I've seen threads regarding Charles and Camilla's engagements or even the future incoming USA State Visit turn into a similar "bash fest" (Great description
@Curryong!) with the War of The Wales being dragged in for no apparent reason.
All in all I believe that this is the best thread to discuss the issues surrounding the Wales' marriage.
Great idea to open the thread :goodpost:. Lol. Maybe I should bookmark :hehe: I am waiting for my partner in crime but nowhere to be seen. My claws are sharpened after a week's absence :teehee: :nod:
:orchid: That should get this thread locked real fast
LOL :hehe: I really am harmless unless provoked...honest
Given the date from the last post, it does seem to me that moving the C/C/D discussion here has snuffed it out. Just my 2 cents. Im the first to say theres times its been frustrating in the past, but it was a big draw to bring people to the forum. :flower:
That tends to happen. I agree.
I think that now that the anniversary of her death has passed along with the engagement, a new Cambridge baby, and a wedding will be dominating the British forums' discussion topics for the next 6 months so the Diana forum might quiet down for a bit.
I hear what you guys are saying, and that would account for some of it, but it got moved before the announcement for H&M, I just miss the activity it used to have.
Well I'll help to find Diana related items when I can
@Duch_Luver_4ever :xmas4: :xmas17:
Theres been NO posts in the Diana board this month yet, seems like sidelining things over here has been a "success" :thumbsdown:
(cough, cough) I posted in the forum earlier in this month. :xmas1:
true true, the photo areas a sticky so I overlooked those and was looking at the main list (I should have remember my own post there as well...LOL). :xmas7:
:lol: :lol: :lol:@Duch_Luver
Who would have been the first servant to notice that The Prince and Princess of Wales were having marital difficulties?
Maybe Wendy Berrie the Housekeeper or quite possibly, Charles own confidante Michael Fawcett, who arrived on the scene about the same time DIana did.
The press were most likely the first to notice. They act like servants even though they are not classified as such. :D
I think that a lot of kids exaggerate adn make up thigns as children.. I know that there's some story of someone saying to her as a child "Diana if you tell one more lie Im putting you out of the car".. but I don't know much about the context? Was she boasting? was she making up stories about her friends? What sort of lies was she teling?
but as a woman, I think she still had an ability to convince herself of things and was elastic about the truth. But I am pretty sceptical about many of the thigns she "put out" as part of her story.. that Charles and Cam lured her into a bad marriage.. that they had a plan to continue their affair. That she didn't know that Charles had been involved wth Camilla till it was all too late to call the wedding off.
but the Tiggy thing was nasty.
Sometimes the things that she told that were untrue had very serious consequences for others. She could destroy reputations and even cause huge scandals by saying something that she knew was not true. As a royal consort, it was an unedifying aspect of her character.
I think that the Twiggy incident was even worse. Once the "Camilla is the cause of all my problems" card had started wearing thin...she had to look for another person to focus her anger on. Twiggy seemed as good a choice as any. She continued with that theme right up to that pathetic letter she wrote about Charles wanting to have her killed. It was all drama and attention-seeking.
I agree about Tiggy (there is a Twiggy but she is a differenet person). But Im talking about the "lies" she supposedly told as a child. I'm wondering what she was saying to make the adult say "If you tell one more lie Im putting you out of the car".
was it just boasting? or making up stories about her friends which were untrue? Was she just saying "I didn't have my ahnd in the cookie jar "when she plailnly DID?
I think that she fixated on Tiggy because as you say, she had worn out the "Camilla is an evil monster" story ab it.. and she was jealous of Tiggy's relationship with the boys and her friendship with Charles. But if she was not happy about Tig and the boys, the thing to do would have ben to discuss calmly with Charles and or the queen..
But I think she did want to make waves.. and she may have convinced herself that Charles woudlnt' be able to marry Cam because she would be a divorcee and that he was now moving on to Tiggy?
Quote from: sandy on March 09, 2019, 11:51:24 AM
Let me ask you Amabel do you think Tiggy was justified in trashing the mothering of DIana to the media? You treat her like a plaster saint. CHarles hired her and had his hands all over her in public. SHe admitted a crush. I don't know why the Queen did not stop this sort of thing.
Camilla loathed Tiggy so it was not just DIana and called Tiggy the hired help.
SO you really think amabel that DIana would not have suffered any penalty say if she bolted with HOare, caused two divorces and not have had more limited custody of her sons? Really? SHe would be the guilty party and certainly would have not benefited by bolting with Hoare.
Junor and Charles supporters use the DIana was a liar spin which is just disgusting. DIana was spot on about Camilla.
Tiggy never had an affair or child with Charles. That was a malicious and low lie by Diana, whichever way you choose to dress it up and justify it. The lawyers were called in and she soon stopped her malicious slander. Saying that C&C lied to does not make what Diana did right. She was trying to attack another woman instead of admitting her role in the failure of her own marriage and the fraught relationship she subsequently had with the father of her children. If Diana was not satisfied with the childcare arrangements, she should have raised it with Charles and the Queen...not slandering the help just because she was in a bad mood.
The penalty stuff was a figment of her imagination. It was and was always going to be a no fault divorce...irreconcilable differences. She made up that yarn about losing the kids in order to add another dimension to the drama that had become her life. Diana could never do things quietly and pragmatically...she had to go out with a blaze. If there were no dramas, she would create some.
It is not a spin. Diana lied on many, many occasions. It is not just Charles' people that say it. Her grandmother, brother and friends noted that she lied. You just have to look at some of the stories she told to see all the inconsistencies. The throwing herself down the stairs when pregnant with William is a classic case in point. She would turn an ordinary incident into the biggest crisis that ever happened in order to cast herself as the perpetual victim of everybody and everything apart from her own actions.
well more ot the point, but there are lies and thter'es slander and libel. Diana's remark was actionable, and I think that even hr royal status did not deter the Legg Bourkes from seriously considering legal action.... so she had to withdraw her remark...
I agree that Diana's remark was actionable and it would have been very embarrassing for her to be sued for slander. She's fortunate that didn't occur.
I've got a feeling that it was the Tiggy debacle that caused Tiggy's side to call in Geoffrey Robertson QC. He posted something a little while ago (can't remember the details) in which Diana had to pay a very large sum of money in compensation in order for a case, in which he had been briefed as a barrister, to not end in court.
Quote from: amabel on March 09, 2019, 01:53:23 PM
well more ot the point, but there are lies and thter'es slander and libel. Diana's remark was actionable, and I think that even hr royal status did not deter the Legg Bourkes from seriously considering legal action.... so she had to withdraw her remark...
What a mess that would have been.
Quote from: Curryong on March 10, 2019, 02:32:33 AM
I've got a feeling that it was the Tiggy debacle that caused Tiggy's side to call in Geoffrey Robertson QC. He posted something a little while ago (can't remember the details) in which Diana had to pay a very large sum of money in compensation in order for a case, in which he had been briefed as a barrister, to not end in court.
Interesting. I'd never heard this before
@Curryong.
^ I've just looked it up. It wasn't Tiggy but another case Diana was emproiled in, one against Bryce Taylor the owner of a gym. Photos were taken of Diana exercising there and they apparently ended up in a print publication. Diana threatened to sue but just before the case was due to go to Court there was a settlement. Robertson claimed that his client (Taylor) won big with a deposit of a million in his Swiss account from Diana. The amount sounds OTT but Robertson has written a book about some of his cases and that is featured in it. If Diana kept paying out huge amounts in settlement in court cases it must have cost her dearly.
I've always admired Diana for her many good qualities, and I feel very sorry for her unhappiness. HOWEVER, I was shocked and chagrined (and still am) when she expressed doubt in a televised interview about the POW being up to the "top job". No matter their personal issues she must have been aware of his dedication and the success he was having in his "job" as POW. And she put the RF in a bad light when she said it. If she wanted revenge, she certainly got it that day.
This is a transcript of the part of the Panorama interview where Diana discusses Charles's future role.
BASHIR: Do you think the Prince of Wales will ever be King?
DIANA: I don't think any of us know the answer to that. And obviously it's a question that's in everybody's head. But who knows, who knows what fate will produce, who knows what circumstances will provoke?
BASHIR: But you would know him better than most people. Do you think he would wish to be King?
DIANA: There was always conflict on that subject with him when we discussed it, and I understood that conflict, because it's a very demanding role, being Prince of Wales, but it's an equally more demanding role being King.
And being Prince of Wales produces more freedom now, and being King would be a little bit more suffocating. And because I know the character I would think that the top job, as I call it, would bring enormous limitations to him, and I don't know whether he could adapt to that.
BASHIR: Do you think it would make more sense in the light of the marital difficulties that you and the Prince of Wales have had if the position of monarch passed directly to your son Prince William?
DIANA: Well, then you have to see that William's very young at the moment, so do you want a burden like that to be put on his shoulders at such an age? So I can't answer that question.
BASHIR: Would it be your wish that when Prince William comes of age that he were to succeed the Queen rather than the current Prince of Wales?
DIANA: My wish is that my husband finds peace of mind, and from that follows others things, yes.
BASHIR: Why have you decided to give this interview now? Why have you decided to speak at this time?
Quote from: Curryong on March 10, 2019, 03:20:13 AM
^ I've just looked it up. It wasn't Tiggy but another case Diana was emproiled in, one against Bryce Taylor the owner of a gym. Photos were taken of Diana exercising there and they apparently ended up in a print publication. Diana threatened to sue but just before the case was due to go to Court there was a settlement. Robertson claimed that his client (Taylor) won big with a deposit of a million in his Swiss account from Diana. The amount sounds OTT but Robertson has written a book about some of his cases and that is featured in it. If Diana kept paying out huge amounts in settlement in court cases it must have cost her dearly.
Why would diana have had to pay? I remember the case, she was pictured at a gym, via a secret camera. Taylor was at fault, and Diana did threaten to sue.. but I think she was dissuaded because it was a public gym with a big glass frontage where anyone could look in.. so the other side could claim that Diana had chosen to be out in public at a gym where anyone would be able to see her so she was consenting to being out in public. So she dropped the case.. but I can't quite see why Diana would be required to pay a settlement.
Quote from: amabel on March 10, 2019, 09:06:56 AM
Why would diana have had to pay? I remember the case, she was pictured at a gym, via a secret camera. Taylor was at fault, and Diana did threaten to sue.. but I think she was dissuaded because it was a public gym with a big glass frontage where anyone could look in.. so the other side could claim that Diana had chosen to be out in public at a gym where anyone would be able to see her so she was consenting to being out in public. So she dropped the case.. but I can't quite see why Diana would be required to pay a settlement.
Geoffrey Robertson is today known as one of Europe's leading human rights lawyers. He wrote a book about his other cases, including Diana's, some time ago.
Geoffrey Robertson Claims Princess Diana Was Two-Faced For This Reason (https://www.ibtimes.com/geoffrey-robertson-claims-princess-diana-was-two-faced-reason-2686897)
Quote from: Curryong on March 10, 2019, 09:16:58 AM
Geoffrey Robertson is today known as one of Europe's leading human rights lawyers. He wrote a book about his other cases, including Diana's, some time ago.
Geoffrey Robertson Claims Princess Diana Was Two-Faced For This Reason (https://www.ibtimes.com/geoffrey-robertson-claims-princess-diana-was-two-faced-reason-2686897)
I am still not clear why diana would need to pay? Unless it was proven that she gave consent to the pictures being taken? But I believe that Diana was advised to drop the case as she woud undergo cross examination about her choosing that gym...I suppose it might have also been difficult to answer questions about wanting to protect her privacy when she had so often talked about her private life in public.
Double post auto-merged: March 10, 2019, 10:47:59 AM
Quote from: Curryong on March 10, 2019, 04:40:02 AM
This is a transcript of the part of the Panorama interview where Diana discusses Charles's future role.
BASHIR: Do you think the Prince of Wales will ever be King?
DIANA: I don't think any of us know the answer to that. And obviously it's a question that's in everybody's head. But who knows, who knows what fate will produce, who knows what circumstances will provoke?
BASHIR: But you would know him better than most people. Do you think he would wish to be King?
DI
B
I think the very fact that she dared to discuss in public wehter her husband would ever be king, let alone the strong hint that William could take his place.. damned her in the eyes of the RF/Queen. That's what really pushed the queen to say enough. NO More... and to insist on a divorce which probably had a gagging clause...
Morton was bad but it could be excused as a hurt woman venting and telling her perception of the breakdown of her marriage. Panorama was downright treacherous, vengeful, manipulative, deceitful and malicious in every way. I imagine her fans would have collective meltdowns if Charles went on national television and said "Knowing the character and pressures of the top job, I do not think Diana could adapt to it". There would be cries of sexism and cruelty. The Windsors were incredibly measured and calm after that betrayal. They similarly kept a cool head when Charles Spencer was virtue signalling to them at the funeral. Any other family would be up in arms. The only people that showed their true displeasure were Princess Margaret and QM.
This was a woman that was in effect acting as an enemy to a family and institution which had raised her very, very high. Without them, Diana would have been just another fairly anonymous aristocrat. Here she was speaking with Republicans about the idea of changing the succession, something that was and remains high treason. Without a care about the impact on her beloved children, the best mother in the world was sticking the boot into their paternal family and airing all the worst bits of the family dirty laundry.
The Geoffrey Robertson merely confirms that Diana could be duplicitous, manipulative and deceitful if it served her aims. Tiggy was yet another person that would have been in the firing line had she not called in her lawyers. Similarly Mrs. Hoare would have continued to be in the firing line had she not called in the police. Diana had many wonderful and attractive qualities but it is ridiculous to claim that she was innocent, always with good intentions, honest and blameless in this saga.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 10, 2019, 02:20:21 PM
Mo
This was
The Geoffrey Robertson merely confirms that Diana could be duplicitous, manipulative and deceitful if it served her aims. Tiggy was yet another person that would have been in the firing line had she not called in her lawyers. Similarly Mrs. Hoare would have continued to be in the firing line had she not called in the police. Diana had many wonderful and attractive qualities but it is ridiculous to claim that she was innocent, always with good intentions, honest and blameless in this saga.
I still don't quite understand why Diana would have had to pay the gym owner guy, if she dropped the lawsuit ?
But I believe that Robertson QC is a very high powered and pretty darn ruthless barrister and if he was representing the gym man, he would have been pretty ruthless towards Diana If she was in the Witness box. I think tahts' why her lawyers persuaded her to drop the case.... that it would entail very harsh questioning and that she might not be able to cope with it. But if she was paying HIM, surely she was admitting fault?
I think the trouble was that sometimes Diana wa a bit out of conrol? she was doing thngs she wanted, acting on wild impulses and didn't have someone to restrain her.. so she ended up in these messes. I think it was partly due to her position as Princess, that it was difficult to tell her that she could not or should not do something, and her friends were less inclined to challenge her than ordinary people who would have all sorts of restrictions that might restrain them from wild impulses. I
If you are an ordinary person, you are probably less likely to creep around for ages phoning a lost lover, cos you have to get up for work In the Morning.. or you may fear losing your job if you get into trouble.
Or you might think of all sorts of angry things you would like to say to someone but again, fear of its causing you to lose your job, or the like might restrain you.
And Diana was well known for breaking up with friends who offered criticism...
The Royal Family at War airs on Channel 5 at 9pm on Saturday.
In 1 hour BST.
Quote
They cried together': Royal insider claims that Diana and Charles were close during the day of their divorce in new Channel 5 documentary
Royal biographer Ingrid Seward revealed the information in new Channel 5 doc
She claims Charles and Diana cried together on a sofa on day of their divorce
She claims by the time the divorce was finalised they were on much better terms
It is one of the most well-documented divorces of the 20th century and yet, 23 years later we are still learning new things about the Prince of Wales and Lady Diana's infamous separation.
A new Channel 5 documentary claims that the late Lady Di and Charles, 70, both cried together on the day they signed their divorce papers.
Ingrid Seward, the editor of Royalty Magazine, reveals the information half-way through the documentary.
'Diana did tell me something quite interesting,' she says. 'She said that on the day of the divorce, she and Charles sat down together on the sofa and they both cried,' she goes on.
'It was this crazy separation, but by the time the divorce was finalised, they were on much better terms.
Diana and Charles cried together on the day of their divorce, claims new Channel 5 documentary | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6839507/Diana-Charles-cried-day-divorce-claims-new-Channel-5-documentary.html)
A bit of DM sensationalism I think. :hehe: I know divorce is painful but I cannot imagine C&D weeping together about it. This was an end that at least one side of the couple had wanted for a long time.
Well it does come from Ingrid Seward however she never said this particular event happened even in the aftermath of Diana's death or Charles remarriage why would she reveal this tidbit now?. But we can agree royal the one side of the couple who wanted it for a long time was Charles and I highly doubt he cried since all he ever wanted was Camilla.
I don't think Charles and DIana got "closer" he still had the big birthday bash for Camilla at Highgrove. Seward wants people to believe this spin for some reason.
I'm looking forward to watching the program to see the context in which this was said. It does seem very strange.
I don't believe much of what Seward claims.
Quote from: sandy on March 24, 2019, 12:20:50 AM
I don't think Charles and DIana got "closer" he still had the big birthday bash for Camilla at Highgrove. Seward wants people to believe this spin for some reason.
I totally agree Sandy IMO I think Seward wants this spin to be believed to show Charles in a good light especially since he is closer to the throne than he was over twenty years ago. Charles never made a real attempt to get close to Diana that was all reserved for Camilla. I see this as really laying groundwork for honors in Charles reign.
Ah, Seward is at it again.
Didn't she help write that awful Simmons book or am I mistaken?
PC probably cried tears of joy in my opinion.
Yes, indeed Seward did. She wrote a few Diana bashing books soon after Diana died.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on March 26, 2019, 09:18:11 PM
PC probably cried tears of joy in my opinion.
I think there was a feeling of relief and being free after all the problems in the marriage. Each party was now free to chart their own path for a start. The briefings could be put to rest as a result of the gagging order in the divorce settlement. Similarly, the issues of custody had been resolved once and for all. For Charles, it meant a chance for remarriage and no further threat to his succession based on his first marriage.
Given all those circumstances, I find it hard to believe that Charles wanted that marriage to continue after 1986. He certainly gave every indication of someone that wanted it to end. The image of them crying together about the divorce seems like sentimental nonsense. The moment the queen ordered a divorce, Charles quickly wrote in agreement. That does not strike me as the reluctant divorcee at all.
Quote from: sandy on March 26, 2019, 10:13:48 PM
Yes, indeed Seward did. She wrote a few Diana bashing books soon after Diana died.
How interesting that Seward said Diana told her that both "cried".
This is a woman who had her place checked for listening devices, if I recall correctly.
Who wrote a letter fearing for her safety and essentially wanted out from a very difficult situation.
This is what I mean by hearsay and to look at a person subsequent actions.
In my opinion many people are speaking FOR Diana. And Diana of course can?t answer back.
Double post auto-merged: March 27, 2019, 11:59:17 AM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 27, 2019, 06:33:53 AM
I think there was a feeling of relief and being free after all the problems in the marriage. Each party was now free to chart their own path for a start. The briefings could be put to rest as a result of the gagging order in the divorce settlement. Similarly, the issues of custody had been resolved once and for all. For Charles, it meant a chance for remarriage and no further threat to his succession based on his first marriage.
Given all those circumstances, I find it hard to believe that Charles wanted that marriage to continue after 1986. He certainly gave every indication of someone that wanted it to end. The image of them crying together about the divorce seems like sentimental nonsense. The moment the queen ordered a divorce, Charles quickly wrote in agreement. That does not strike me as the reluctant divorcee at all.
Both of them wanted to be free.
PC was for obvious reasons.
Diana, because it was unbearable to be in a situation where her husband "left" her at 23 and having a much older woman lurking about.
I've never seen a marriage where the wife becomes the "third" wheel. And I believe this is what was "required" of Diana to put up with. Astounding.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on March 27, 2019, 06:33:53 AM
I think there was a feeling of relief and being free after all the problems in the marriage. Each party was now free to chart their own path for a start. The briefings could be put to rest as a result of the gagging order in the divorce settlement. Similarly, the issues of custody had been resolved once and for all. For Charles, it meant a chance for remarriage and no further threat to his succession based on his first marriage.
Given all those circumstances, I find it hard to believe that Charles wanted that marriage to continue after 1986. He certainly gave every indication of someone that wanted it to end. The image of them crying together about the divorce seems like sentimental nonsense. The moment the queen ordered a divorce, Charles quickly wrote in agreement. That does not strike me as the reluctant divorcee at all.
Charles never made any such indication that he wanted the marriage to end in 1986. At that time it was "keeping up appearances" and Diana and Charles duly went on tours even danced together and looked happy.
At the end of the marriage, I don't think Diana and Charles were entirely trustful of each other. They did not get "closer" since after Diana died, Charles cooperated with Junor on a Diana bashing book. Junor corroborated Charles (and Camilla's) cooperation. So all was not rosy. And Charles is still resentful and hung up on rewriting the past.
Although I do find it hard to believe they would have cried together after their divorce, and that if they had they would probably not have talked about it, I admit that something like that COULD have happened and got misinterpreted as many of those things do in the public eye. In addition to relief at the end of the divorce proceedings, I know that all those who go through divorce experience a sense of failure and loss in addition to all the negative, angry emotions of the failed relationship. Despite anyone's opinion of the Wales marriage and divorce, there would be sadness and a sense of loss in both camps. And they still had two children and would need to be together at times because of them. And despite it being on a public stage, there is a lot that none of us know or should know.
I doubt Charles cried and I doubt Diana would have cried in front of him.
Quote
phil dampier
@phildampier
The Prince and Princess of Wales, Charles and Diana, separated on this day 27 years ago.
How did you take the news?
I was a teenager, and a super athlete focused on my thing, in later years I found interest with the BRF.
But yes
@dianab comparing and contrasting, Prince Andrew's shenanigans are way far more scandalous. The POW's was more like behaving like cheap celebs, z listers, a scene from #LoveIsland
Double post auto-merged: December 09, 2019, 04:36:07 PM
Quote from: wannable on December 09, 2019, 02:48:08 PM
How did you take the news?
TBH I wasn't surprised by the announcement at all. It had been clear in recent years leading up to their separation that the couple were estranged.
The Queen was so happy to see Charles marry Diana according to all observers. She was I think in denial about the Camilla situation with Charles even on the wedding day. She always thought bad situations would disappear by themselves.
I think that if PC and PD remained married, and he had given up his other relationship, they would have been a force to be reckoned with. In some ways I think that PD would have had a very good effect on PC.
Charles just did not give her a chance. He had a program of getting the two heirs and did not respect Diana's wishes about Camilla. Camilla I think was more or less in charge.
This is just my opinion of course, but I think that Camilla was/is a manipulative and calculating person. I think that she saw PC's 'soft spots' and took advantage. People like that know what they're doing.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 18, 2019, 07:12:47 PM
I think that if PC and PD remained married, and he had given up his other relationship, they would have been a force to be reckoned with. In some ways I think that PD would have had a very good effect on PC.
Since they had virtully nothing in common and got on very badly, its hard to see how she would have had a good effect on him...
Obvious question: If Charles thought they had nothing in common and as he later told his biographer, he preferred Camilla and his most ardent plea (!) was to hope he could learn to love Diana and never said he loved her, and at 32 why did he marry her and put Diana through all this?
It is hard to see how Charles would have a good effect on his wife when he made it clear he would stay in touch with his mistress and not want to give an inch (marriage is give and take). I don't get why Diana gets crucified when Charles knew the score. Diana was still a teen when she got engaged and I think it was a cruel thing for Charles to do.
I t hink Camilla was the malignant influence. She was and is an expert manipulator and constantly put down Diana. Diana stood no chance. If Charles REALLY wanted Camilla he had no business marrying Diana. A man should not go into marriage in that wishy washy way that he "hoped" to fall in love with the woman he married. Total cop out.
He had a duty to marry.. He did not realise how little he had in common with Diana because she had doen a good performance of enjoying all the things that he liked... hardly think that he married Diana with some idea of making her unhappy...
No he did not have a "duty" to marry . He did not have to. There is a line of succession.
Charles had been doing a great performance of recreating Camilla as his "safe" married friend who would advise Diana.
Charles did not love Diana and married her anyway. A far cry of Diana being accused of "pretending" to like Balmoral. Even though Diana went to Balmoral every year until the separation and had morning sickness the first year she was there. She might have enjoyed it if she did not have to keep getting sick and throwing up.
Quote from: amabel on December 18, 2019, 07:44:45 PM
Since they had virtully nothing in common and got on very badly, its hard to see how she would have had a good effect on him...
Who said they had nothing in common? This is a genuine question. I think that PC had married PD but also had his "sweetheart" on the side. Thus he was all set and had no need to make an "effort". His "sweetheart" (using the term very ironically) was also keen on butting in and 'helping things along'. That was the main problem IMO.
Diana was a memeber of the class that PC grew up with. They were both serious minded when it came to serving their nation. They were both interested in medicine, alternative medicine, health care, child care, arts and so on. They both liked the opera, ballet, and classical music. Diana was also very much in love and devoted to PC. I always got the impression that she was very patient and generous with her partners. They could have had a real shot at a long term marriage. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 18, 2019, 07:12:47 PM
I think that if PC and PD remained married, and he had given up his other relationship, they would have been a force to be reckoned with. In some ways I think that PD would have had a very good effect on PC.
imo diana herself was a force to be reckoned with. no need of charles for that. their marriage was a huge huge mistake.
and when they were together, the interest was always on her
Double post auto-merged: December 18, 2019, 09:36:07 PM
Quote from: sandy on December 18, 2019, 07:58:41 PM
No he did not have a "duty" to marry . He did not have to. There is a line of succession.
Charles had been doing a great performance of recreating Camilla as his "safe" married friend who would advise Diana.
Charles did not love Diana and married her anyway. A far cry of Diana being accused of "pretending" to like Balmoral. Even though Diana went to Balmoral every year until the separation and had morning sickness the first year she was there. She might have enjoyed it if she did not have to keep getting sick and throwing up.
in her phonecall to james gilbey, her dislike of balmoral was obvious. that had nothing to do with her pregnancies. in fact, she said it was the most stressful time of the year as far she was concerned
Double post auto-merged: December 18, 2019, 09:39:53 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 18, 2019, 08:12:22 PM
Diana was a memeber of the class that PC grew up with. They were both serious minded when it came to serving their nation. They were both interested in medicine, alternative medicine, health care, child care, arts and so on. They both liked the opera, ballet, and classical music. Diana was also very much in love and devoted to PC. I always got the impression that she was very patient and generous with her partners. They could have had a real shot at a long term marriage. IMO.
if there arent feelings involved, all of those affinities dont serve for nothing.
Double post auto-merged: December 18, 2019, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: sandy on December 09, 2019, 06:39:10 PM
The Queen was so happy to see Charles marry Diana according to all observers. She was I think in denial about the Camilla situation with Charles even on the wedding day. She always thought bad situations would disappear by themselves.
i've always read the queen and the queen-mother find diana was tiresome girl since early the marriage... look at the queen's speech at fountain event, she didnt appear have good memories of diana.
QuoteDiana was a memeber of the class that PC grew up with. They were both serious minded when it came to serving their nation. They were both interested in medicine, alternative medicine, health care, child care, arts and so on. They both liked the opera, ballet, and classical music. Diana was also very much in love and devoted to PC. I always got the impression that she was very patient and generous with her partners. They could have had a real shot at a long term marriage. IMO.
I disagree with the bolded statement to some degree. Yes both were part of the UK's upper class but as far as I know there were few families in the UK that live an almost Edwardian existence like the British royal family with it emphasis on a strict protocol. Like Charles, Diana did have servants in her home but they didn't have footman, a chauffeurs, security personnel etc..The Spencers didn't entertain at the same level as the Windsors either especially after John and Frances' divorce. Diana's upbringing did prepare her for a more informal life than Charles. While Diana certainly would have had good manners, it was not the rigid protocol that she found with the Windsors. Diana found palace life lonely so she'd pop down to the kitchens only to find that BP staff would shoo her out of the kitchen because she was on the "wrong side of the green baize door."
QuoteDiana learned the "customs" in due time
Yes she did and to be fair she certainly would have had good manners to begin with, but she like so many in the British aristocracy had not been living in the same manner as the Windsors for decades. Especially in the years following the end of the First and Second World Wars. The Spencers like so many in their class were struggling to keep their great estates afloat. Their lives were not nearly as rigid as their ancestors. The Windsors were a throwback to a different era.
Also while the couple did have a few things in common: love of their children, shared interest in classical music, they were two very different people. Charles has always been an "old soul" who was remarkably different from his fellow Baby Boomers in his dress style and interests in popular culture. Diana by contrast easily fit in with her generation. :nod:
Too bad that they didn't spend more time together getting to know each other.
Quote from: TLLK on December 18, 2019, 11:21:33 PM
I disagree with the bolded statement to some degree. Yes both were part of the UK's upper class but as far as I know there were few families in the UK that live an almost Edwardian existence like the British royal family with it emphasis on a strict protocol. Like Charles, Diana did have servants in her home but they didn't have footman, a chauffeurs, security personnel etc..The Spencers didn't entertain at the same level as the Windsors either especially after John and Frances' divorce. Diana's upbringing did prepare her for a more informal life than Charles. While Diana certainly would have had good manners, it was not the rigid protocol that she found with the Windsors. Diana found palace life lonely so she'd pop down to the kitchens only to find that BP staff would shoo her out of the kitchen because she was on the "wrong side of the green baize door."
True.. the Spencers like many aristocrats by the 1970s lived a far simpler life than the Windsors. Not because of money necessarily but just because times had changed and not all upper class watned to be surrounded by loads of servants and a very formal set of rules for how they lived and heavy duty social obligations. Johnny Spencer didn't entertain much when Frances left.. he became almost reclusive.. and when he remarried Diana didn't like Raine so she wasn't into the sort of formal socialising that the RF still went in for.
and they had almost zero interests in common. Dianas more serious interests did not develop for some years, such as her charity work.. She and C liked music and that was about it.. and charles' atttudes were as you say very old fashioned.. he never took an interest in rock music or "the fun lifestyle" of the 1960s like some of his contemporaries. He was formal and very serious.. Diana was a young girl who was very young for her age. she Didn't share C's love of coutnry sports or the country... though she had grown up iwht it, it didn't appeal to her...
Her education had been limited and she hadn't learned much for herself at te time of their marriage and she wasn't then all that interested in learning... That attitiudes gap was more significant than their lakc of common interests...
Quote from: amabel on December 19, 2019, 07:57:04 AM
True.. the Spencers like many aristocrats by the 1970s lived a far simpler life than the Windsors. Not because of money necessarily but just because times had changed and not all upper class watned to be surrounded by loads of servants and a very formal set of rules for how they lived and heavy duty social obligations. Johnny Spencer didn't entertain much when Frances left.. he became almost reclusive.. and when he remarried Diana didn't like Raine so she wasn't into the sort of formal socialising that the RF still went in for.
and they had almost zero interests in common. Dianas more serious interests did not develop for some years, such as her charity work.. She and C liked music and that was about it.. and charles' atttudes were as you say very old fashioned.. he never took an interest in rock music or "the fun lifestyle" of the 1960s like some of his contemporaries. He was formal and very serious.. Diana was a young girl who was very young for her age. she Didn't share C's love of coutnry sports or the country... though she had grown up iwht it, it didn't appeal to her...
Her education had been limited and she hadn't learned much for herself at te time of their marriage and she wasn't then all that interested in learning... That attitiudes gap was more significant than their lakc of common interests...
Good points
@amabel. Unfortunately the gap that you mentioned did contribute to the demise of their marriage. Each sought romantic relationships outside of marriage and eventually they separated and then divorced.
Any interest? I disagree. They liked skiing, music, movies, watersports, being on the water, swimming, ballet,
and they had mutual interest in two children they brought into the world.
My point about Raine is you only mention Diana as not liking Raine, when it was all the children who did not like her. Just saying. An important point by leaving out the others it is implied Diana was the Only One.
Double post auto-merged: December 19, 2019, 03:05:44 PM
Quote from: TLLK on December 19, 2019, 01:51:52 PM
Good points @amabel. Unfortunately the gap that you mentioned did contribute to the demise of their marriage. Each sought romantic relationships outside of marriage and eventually they separated and then divorced.
DIana sought romantic relationships after Charles got more involved with Camilla. Should she have been celibate while Charles visited Camilla?
I doubt Diana would have sought romantic relationships had CHarles fully committed to her and not pursued the "friendship" with Mrs Parker Bowles. She wanted a romantic relationship with her husband. Camilla was always a presence even on the honeymoon. IT was not as simple as both deciding to cheat. Camilla was the root cause and quite destructive.
Quote from: sandy on December 19, 2019, 03:03:21 PM
Any interest? I disagree. They liked skiing, music, movies, watersports, being on the water, swimming, ballet,
and they had mutual interest in two children they brought into the world.
My point about Raine is you only mention Diana as not liking Raine, when it was all the children who did not like her. Just saying. An important point by leaving out the others it is implied Diana was the Only One.
they liked Skiiing and Music and that was abot it.. And more difficult and a problem than their lack of common interests was their wide mental age gap. Chalres was old fashioned and old for his age.. Diana very young for her age...and within a few years, the children, the music and skiing did not keep them together...
wehher the other children did not like Raine has nothing to do with Diana's reaction to her. We were discussing the fact that Diana had little experience of the sort of formal social life that the RF still went in for. She didn't have much experience fo that sort of life.. Frances had left the family years earlier.. Raine was a socialite but Diana did not like her...
Quotethey liked Skiiing and Music and that was abot it.. And more difficult and a problem than their lack of common interests was their wide mental age gap. Chalres was old fashioned and old for his age.. Diana very young for her age...and within a few years, the children, the music and skiing did not keep them together...
:goodpost:
@amabel.
Quote from: TLLK on December 19, 2019, 03:14:15 PM
:goodpost: @amabel.
I think that common interests don't matter as much as similarltiy of outlook. Its possible to have mostly separate interests but if you are agreeing on basics..on what you think about what's important in life.. the marriage will survive you having different hobbies...
Sandy, I said that while common interests were a good thing.. a common outlook is more important. Charles was old fashioned, he was a romantic reactionary. Diana was more modern minded. She was young for her age and he was old for his age. and common interests help... If diana did not enjoy most of the things that Charles liked to do.. it was harder for them to build a marriage...
Diana came into the RF with little experience of the formal way the RF operated... and she didn't take to big house parties or having to socialise with people whom she didn't click with.. Her relationship with Raine was immatieral except in the sense that her dislike of Raine meant she really didn't have that much triaining in running a big house and that srort of social life.. Raine DID like the glamourous social life - but Diana didn't and didn't have any real expeirence of it...
As TLLK has said, Diana liked to pop inot the kitchen and chat to the staff as she'd doen at home.. the RF didn't want her doing that, nor did the more hidebound of the royal servants...
Those royal watchers that know them very well, I bet there are more uncommon than common, if a list were created. :shrug: They are/were part of the stats. More common, fixable chances. Uncommon, less fixable chances.
It is a bad thing in any marriage for the groom to keep his "very good friend" around and contact her on a steady basis. Especially when the groom prefers the "very good friend" to his wife.
THe Spencers were "informal" but were not exactly middle class people living in the suburbs or in a three room flat.
Some biographers wrote Diana did take an interest in the estate and its running.
It was not a routine for any little girl to be invited to Prince's parties at sandringham. This was not a common thing for most women as they grew up.
CHarles apparently skipped telling Diana about the "rules." She got real presents not gag gifts for her in laws the first Christmas, Charles never tipped her off that they exchanged gag gifts. So why didn't he tell her?
well if Diana knew so much about the RF how come she didn't know taht they don't give expensive gifts? I've read it many times years ago...
Quote from: dianab on December 18, 2019, 09:32:16 PM
imo diana herself was a force to be reckoned with. no need of charles for that. their marriage was a huge huge mistake.
and when they were together, the interest was always on her
if there arent feelings involved, all of those affinities dont serve for nothing.
Well yes Diana was a force to be reckoned with but there's a different dynamic when you're a couple. One doesn't rule out the other.
Diana did love prince Charles. Otherwise she would not have minded Camilla. I don't think she would consider marrying PC if she did not love him/were in love with him.
Double post auto-merged: December 19, 2019, 09:14:06 PM
Quote from: TLLK on December 18, 2019, 11:21:33 PM
I disagree with the bolded statement to some degree. Yes both were part of the UK's upper class but as far as I know there were few families in the UK that live an almost Edwardian existence like the British royal family with it emphasis on a strict protocol. Like Charles, Diana did have servants in her home but they didn't have footman, a chauffeurs, security personnel etc..The Spencers didn't entertain at the same level as the Windsors either especially after John and Frances' divorce. Diana's upbringing did prepare her for a more informal life than Charles. While Diana certainly would have had good manners, it was not the rigid protocol that she found with the Windsors. Diana found palace life lonely so she'd pop down to the kitchens only to find that BP staff would shoo her out of the kitchen because she was on the "wrong side of the green baize door."
I don't think that Prince Charles would ever have proposed to, say, a Diana Jones whose parents were accountants or such (I mean no offence towards that profession! Simply mean middle class). So, to a certain degree there had to have been similarities and perhaps they were enough for Diana to ease into her new enviroment. Nonetheless Diana was not the first nor the last person to have found herself in a different enviroment than what she was used to after she was married. It is possible for marriages to survive that kind of thing, IMO.
I think, and this is me personally, that the stories of Diana being too friendly with the staff has been a bit exaggerated. She was after all an aristocrat. And didn't she fire her nanny for vacating with her employers thus giving the impression that she was part of that class? I think that Diana was aware of her upbringing and was in some way a conservative when it came to that.
The problem was, IMO, that she had to put up with a situation that was unusual whatever class you were in. It was an arrangement not known to her, and not suited to her.
Quote from: sandy on December 19, 2019, 05:35:39 PM
I am talking about the Christmas gift customs. She went to birthday parties of ANdrew and Edward where gag gifts were not given.
She obviously did not know much about Royal habits then, because I read it in more than one place many many years ago... when I was a kid.. that the Royals don't give expensive gifts for Christmas...
Double post auto-merged: December 19, 2019, 09:40:11 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 19, 2019, 09:05:54 PM
Well yes Diana was a force to be reckoned with but there's a different dynamic when you're a couple. One doesn't rule out the other.
Diana did love prince Charles. Otherwise she would not have minded Camilla. I don't think she would consider marrying PC if she did not love him/were in love with him.
Double post auto-merged: December 19, 2019, 09:14:06 PM
I don't think that Prince Charles would ever have proposed to, say, a Diana Jones whose parents were accountants or such (I mean no offence towards that profession! Simply mean middle class). So, to a certain degree there had to have been similarities and perhaps they were enough for Diana to ease into her new enviroment. Nonetheless Diana was not the first nor the last person to have found herself in a different enviroment than what she was used to after she was married. It is possible for marriages to survive that kind of thing, IMO.
I think, and this is me personally, that the stories of Diana being too friendly with the staff has been a bit exaggerated. She was after all an aristocrat. And didn't she fire her nanny for vacating with her employers thus giving the impression that she was part of that class? I think that Diana was aware of her upbringing and was in some way a conservative when it came to that.
The problem was, IMO, that she had to put up with a situation that was unusual whatever class you were in. It was an arrangement not known to her, and not suited to her.
She fired the nanny mainly because she was upset and rather jealous because Wiliam was too close to her.. She was also annoyed that Barbara Barnes had goen as a guest to the Glenconners party..
However she did certainly pop inot the Kitchens in her parents home to chat to the staff and she did the same, initially when she was engaged and married to Charles... That's rather different to a nanny being invited "on equal terms" to a birthday party... of an upper class employer...
Diana often blew hot and cold in her attitude to staff, treating them in a friendly way and then getting annoyed because she feared that they were taking advantage of her good nature as she saw it...
Its true that as an upper class girl she came from the class just below the royals in the social scale.. However her upbringing was much less formal than that of the Windsors.. and she was not used to the formality of Royal life, nor was she used to the socialising that the Royals do. The Spencers had lived a comfortable life but simpler.. and because of Johnny's keeping himself to himself for a time after his divorce, she didn't have that much experience of a life that was all about socialising and parties. When she left home ad went to London to live, her life was relatively simple.. She lived in a flat, she did her own housework and in fact worked as a cleaner for her sister and one or 2 other women.. and she lived the "oridinary life" of a young girl in London, having a part time job, cooking and cleaning for herself, having friendly informal dinner parties with her pals.. not th e sort of elaborate entertainment that the RF went in for...
Quote from: amabel on December 18, 2019, 07:55:15 PM
He had a duty to marry.. He did not realise how little he had in common with Diana because she had doen a good performance of enjoying all the things that he liked... hardly think that he married Diana with some idea of making her unhappy...
Would it not have been better if the courtship of Lady Diana and Prince Charles had lasted quite a lot longer?
^^^Absolutely!!!! I believe that had they spent more time together that they might have come to understand that they wouldn't be a good match. :nod:
Quote from: sandy on December 19, 2019, 10:59:40 PM
I never knew about the gag gifts until I read about the DIana episode. Even in the documentary the Royals there was no evidence of the gag gifts. I don't think it out of the realm of possibility for Diana not to have known about it.
Diana had every right to be concerned about staff. Burrell comes immediately to mind.
Diana did socialize with her flatmates , she did not just stay home.
Yes she socialised but it was all informal entertaining, just little dinner parities at home, eating in frornt of the TV, doing her own housework. she lived a casual life very far removed from the etiquette and formality fo the RF's life.
I don't know what you mean about staff. She was friendly with the staff as a kid, and then when she and Charles were first married she wnet into the kitchens to chat to the royal staff but many of them didn't like that.. and it wasn't common among the RF. But Diana also did blow hot and cold with her staff.. often treating them very kindly and friendly but then getting annoyed if she perceived them as "freeloading" on her..
THe "gag gifts" IMO is pretty well known. I've read it in books and mags about the RF.. and Diana grew up with family who were courtiers and lived near the queen and you have said she knew a lot about the RF. Obviously she didn't. She didn't seem to realise that the "Balmoral routine" was part of her life once she married Charles.. that she was stuck with visiting Scotland on a regular basis.. that the talk was all about sport and that she would find it very boring..She didn't realise that the queen maintained an almost Edwardian formality in her private life.. and that she, Diana could not just sit on her husband's knee and cuddle up to him... she had to socialise and act formally, even at a house party...
Double post auto-merged: December 20, 2019, 10:16:52 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 18, 2019, 08:12:22 PM
Diana was a memeber of the class that PC grew up with. They were both serious minded when it came to serving their nation. They were both interested in medicine, alternative medicine, health care, child care, arts and so on. They both liked the opera, ballet, and classical music. Diana was also very much in love and devoted to PC. I always got the impression that she was very patient and generous with her partners. They could have had a real shot at a long term marriage. IMO.
Even at the tieme of the marriage when everyone was "in love" with the idea of the charming young couple and prepared to believe the best - in love with the fairytale.. even then some commentators felt there were uneasy warning signs..There was a big age gap.. Diana was not much educated and Charles had been to university and was interested in learning and ideas.. that she was young for her age and he was old for his age. He liked older people to hang around with and she liked things like dancing, discos, romantic novels and light entertainment.. and the company of people her own age...
Quote from: sandy on December 20, 2019, 03:00:23 PM
The thing is Diana was only a serious contender ca. 1980. Charles was serious about both Anna Wallace and Amanda Knatchbull. And earlier on with Davina Sheffield. I would think those three ladies would be researching etiquette rather than Lady Diana who was not in the running until ca. 1980.
Diana's grandmother did help but was vague about the rules saying that Diana would not share their sense of humor. So why couldn't the grandmother be more specific? Why is the onus always on Diana? Diana also had three part time jobs and maybe did not have the time to sit home and peruse magazines.
3 parti times jobs?? Oh come on Diana didn't sit home nights sewing shirts till she could harlldy see. She had plenty of time for leisure... to read magazines and books. Why not read up on the RF if she was brought up in a family that had served them for generations.. and if she was interested in dating Charles. And her family must have talked about their work with the RF at times.. why Not say "Granny, tell me a bit more about the Q Mother?" Good idea if you marry into the RF to be as well up as you can be on their lifestyle. Youre not just marrying a man, you are alos marrying into a family and an institution and a job...
I don't know what your point is about the other girls Charles dated.. and the only one of them he asked to marry him was AManda Knatchbull, whom I am sure was well up on Royal etiqueete...
Quote from: amabel on December 19, 2019, 09:31:16 PM
She fired the nanny mainly because she was upset and rather jealous because Wiliam was too close to her.. She was also annoyed that Barbara Barnes had goen as a guest to the Glenconners party..
However she did certainly pop inot the Kitchens in her parents home to chat to the staff and she did the same, initially when she was engaged and married to Charles... That's rather different to a nanny being invited "on equal terms" to a birthday party... of an upper class employer...
Diana often blew hot and cold in her attitude to staff, treating them in a friendly way and then getting annoyed because she feared that they were taking advantage of her good nature as she saw it...
Its true that as an upper class girl she came from the class just below the royals in the social scale.. However her upbringing was much less formal than that of the Windsors.. and she was not used to the formality of Royal life, nor was she used to the socialising that the Royals do. The Spencers had lived a comfortable life but simpler.. and because of Johnny's keeping himself to himself for a time after his divorce, she didn't have that much experience of a life that was all about socialising and parties. When she left home ad went to London to live, her life was relatively simple.. She lived in a flat, she did her own housework and in fact worked as a cleaner for her sister and one or 2 other women.. and she lived the "oridinary life" of a young girl in London, having a part time job, cooking and cleaning for herself, having friendly informal dinner parties with her pals.. not th e sort of elaborate entertainment that the RF went in for...
Diana wasn't jelaous of the nanny. There were other nannys that stayed with them for years and Diana didn't react in a jealous way.
She was friendly and generous to her employees. Nothing wrong with that of course. But she wasn't overtly friendly.
Her fear of being taken advantage of some was not unwarranted.
And she was right; Burrell, Jephson, Wharfe, that housekeeper, etc. We don't know what Diana's point of view was, and what she knew and what she objected to because she's not here to tell it.
I don't think she was unreasonable. There were probably others who she trusted and who has kept quiet.
yes seh was jealous of the nanny....She feared that Will was too much attached to Barbara Barnes.. Other nannies she may have worked out a relationship with but with Barbara - there were issues such as the fact that B had worked for Lord Glenconner and was invited ot his birthday party as an honoured guest. She was often generous to staff at one stage and then difficult with them at other times. She was similarly ambivalent about Burrell saying at times that "he had to go" but still depending on him and keeping him as a trusted employee...
Quote from: amabel on December 20, 2019, 06:57:22 PM
yes seh was jealous of the nanny....She feared that Will was too much attached to Barbara Barnes.. Other nannies she may have worked out a relationship with but with Barbara - there were issues such as the fact that B had worked for Lord Glenconner and was invited ot his birthday party as an honoured guest. She was often generous to staff at one stage and then difficult with them at other times. She was similarly ambivalent about Burrell saying at times that "he had to go" but still depending on him and keeping him as a trusted employee...
Diana had every right to approve or disapprove of the nanny for her son william. CHarles was not recorded as opposing his wife's decision.
Burrell's possible fate is unknown since Diana died before she could make any sort of decision about him.
Double post auto-merged: December 20, 2019, 09:56:37 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 20, 2019, 06:37:05 PM
Diana wasn't jelaous of the nanny. There were other nannys that stayed with them for years and Diana didn't react in a jealous way.
She was friendly and generous to her employees. Nothing wrong with that of course. But she wasn't overtly friendly.
Her fear of being taken advantage of some was not unwarranted.
And she was right; Burrell, Jephson, Wharfe, that housekeeper, etc. We don't know what Diana's point of view was, and what she knew and what she objected to because she's not here to tell it.
I don't think she was unreasonable. There were probably others who she trusted and who has kept quiet.
Burrell, Jephson and Wharfe made money through being associated with DIana. After she died.
Quote from: dianab on December 20, 2019, 09:49:03 PM
Ken Wharfe who was quite critical of Diana said she was right to get Barbara Barnes fired. She was one of those royal nannies who liked treat William as 'special'.
Funny I thought that Ken wharfe was a Policeman.. who liked to write about how William pulled a towel off Diana so he could gete a look at her...
Quote from: amabel on December 20, 2019, 06:57:22 PM
yes seh was jealous of the nanny....She feared that Will was too much attached to Barbara Barnes.. Other nannies she may have worked out a relationship with but with Barbara - there were issues such as the fact that B had worked for Lord Glenconner and was invited ot his birthday party as an honoured guest. She was often generous to staff at one stage and then difficult with them at other times. She was similarly ambivalent about Burrell saying at times that "he had to go" but still depending on him and keeping him as a trusted employee...
If she was able to work out a relationship with the other nannies, why not Barbara?
I don't think she fired her because of her suposed closeness to PW. If that were the case she would have objected to the other nannies as well, which she didn't.
Ultimately, Diana is the one with answer and she's not here. I think there were things that Diana perhaps objected to or disagreed with (such as Barbara vacationing with her previous employers) and decided it was better they went their separate ways. It happens everyday, and I think it's been blown out of proportion. Perhaps to paint Diana in a bad light.
Burrell was/is a sleaze. This is just my personal opinion, but I think he always had the intention of "selling Diana out".
He's also delusional which is evidenced by the way he interjects himself in Diana's history and makes himself one of the main characters so to speak. In truth, as a butler, he saw many things and was probably very nosy and thus got info. Diana had to rely on him in some cases, as he was personnel, and I think he took that and ran with it.
As time goes by and he comes up with some absurd claims/stories and portrays himself as main character he's not taken that seriously. But my point is, such a deluded person is difficult to get rid of (fired in other words). So I think Diana was weighing her options but ultimately would have let him go. He is not a good person, IMO, and would have betrayed Diana even if she was alive. IMO.
Double post auto-merged: December 20, 2019, 11:04:02 PM
Quote from: amabel on December 20, 2019, 10:51:41 PM
Funny I thought that Ken wharfe was a Policeman.. who liked to write about how William pulled a towel off Diana so he could gete a look at her...
Another loser who thought he could sell his book by writing ficticious details like this. What a mind he has.
why would it be difficiult to fire Burrell if she really wanted to? She got rid of loads of staff, no bother...
Barbara was Williams first proper Nanny.. and he was very close to her..and Diana was jealous. That's generally the accepted reason why Diana got rid of her..
Quote from: amabel on December 21, 2019, 09:08:33 AM
OK... I belive that was the reason, combined with her annoyance at Barbara B's going to a society birthday party. I can understand the jealousy, I think she was hurt that WIlliam loved his nanny because she wanted to be there with him more of the time.. and she was the same about Tiggy Legge Bourke.. so I would accept that she was capable of being very jealous and afraid that her sons might love someone like a nanny...
As I've said, she got rid of a lot of staff.. What cuodl Burrell say of her that she iddn't want made public?
Personally, I don't think that Diana was worried about her sons loving their nannies. Certainly, neither PW or PH ever loved any nanny more than they loved their mother. They were both very attached to Diana and she knew this too of course.
We don't know much about their relationship as an employer/employee. Perhaps there were disagreements and Diana felt it would be better if Barnes moved on. It's not unusual.
When you work for someone in their own home you get to see many intimate moments, or everyday moments that are highly personal. It doesn't have to be anything embarrassing or so. Nonetheless one's own privacy is sacred. It's a right. And to have someone who IMO is delusional, and detached from reality open his mouth and blab about things which was none of his business would, I think, worry anyone.
Not to mention that Diana was in unusual circumstances which weren't so 'black and white' but that wouldn't translate well in the gossip magazines.
I personally think also that Burrell seems to be a very, very vindictive person that doesn't mind twisting things entirely. Not unlike Hewitt. But this is just my opinion.
I don't thnk that Burrell was vindictive.. He's a weird guy, he has problems but he was devoted in his weird way to Diana.
As for Di and the nannies she was jealous.. She was he same with Tiggy Legge bourke who was taking care of Will and Harry in later years when they were too old for a nanny.. THey were very close to her and loved her.. but Diana was not happy with her....
^^^From what I've read Jessie webb who replaced Ruth Wallace was also fired by Diana. So it appears that among the chief nannies (there were assistants):Barbara Barnes-fired, Olga Powell (former assistant)-retired, Ruth Wallace-quit due to the tense atmosphere during the war of the Wales, Jessie Webb-Former assistant nanny and later fired, Tiggy Legge-Brouke who the brothers begged Charles not to fire. She was not Diana's employee. Diana had Lilliie Piccio as her sons' last nanny and after Diana's death in 1997 stayed as Charles' employee until 1999 when she retired.
Meet the nannies who helped Princess Diana raise William and Harry - and the key role they played - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meet-nannies-who-helped-princess-14275429)
Quote from: TLLK on December 23, 2019, 08:49:00 PM
^^^From what I've read Jessie webb who replaced Ruth Wallace was also fired by Diana. So it appears that among the chief nannies (there were assistants):Barbara Barnes-fired, Olga Powell (former assistant)-retired, Ruth Wallace-quit due to the tense atmosphere during the war of the Wales, Jessie Webb-Former assistant nanny and later fired, Tiggy Legge-Brouke who the brothers begged Charles not to fire. She was not Diana's employee. Diana had Lilliie Piccio as her sons' last nanny.
Meet the nannies who helped Princess Diana raise William and Harry - and the key role they played - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/meet-nannies-who-helped-princess-14275429)
true, she did have issues with the nannies.. and there were other staff of Charles, as I recall, that she pushed out in the ealry days of the marriage. But WIll and Harry remiaend attached to all their nannies even if Diana had gotten rid of them...
QuoteBut WIll and Harry remiaend attached to all their nannies even if Diana had gotten rid of them..
Yes the brothers have remained incredibly loyal to all of their nannies. They both attended Tiggy's wedding and are Godfathers to her sons. Later William canceled an engagement to attend Olga Powell's funeral in 2012 and all of the surviving nannies were invited to both of the brothers' weddings. In a very touching gesture Olga's family chose to donate money that would have gone to flowers for her funeral to Sentebale.
Double post auto-merged: December 23, 2019, 09:38:15 PM
Forgot to add in my earlier post that Ruth Wallace has also passed away.
I agree, Sandy. There were nannies that stayed with them for years. So no, Diana did not fire each nanny.
Diana had a working relationship, and there were perhaps disagreements and they were let go. It happens everyday in every profession. It certainly isn't something unusual.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on December 23, 2019, 10:06:42 PM
I agree, Sandy. There were nannies that stayed with them for years. So no, Diana did not fire each nanny.
Diana had a working relationship, and there were perhaps disagreements and they were let go. It happens everyday in every profession. It certainly isn't something unusual.
yes the disagreements were usually to do with Diana's not being happy with her sons turning to a nanny... she was jealous of Tiggy, she was jealous of Barbara...
And don't forget that Jessie Webb was also fired in 1991 when the Wales' marriage was more or less coming to an end.
Quote from: amabel on December 23, 2019, 10:26:03 PM
yes the disagreements were usually to do with Diana's not being happy with her sons turning to a nanny... she was jealous of Tiggy, she was jealous of Barbara...
Sadly the Spencer children (especially the younger ones) felt the impact of their parents' divorce and it did affect them long into adulthood. Sarah, Diana and Charles all had their struggles in their youth and young adulthood and IMO some of that was due to their parents' painful divorce.
I believe this colored Diana's attitude to the female caregivers in her sons' lives and their bond with them played on her insecurities. :no:
Quote from: TLLK on December 23, 2019, 11:11:06 PM
And don't forget that Jessie Webb was also fired in 1991 when the Wales' marriage was more or less coming to an end.
A lot of staff left the waleses household over the years, I think a bit higher than the average. sometimes it was to do with Diana, but somtimes it was just natural "people changing their jobs."
Double post auto-merged: December 24, 2019, 08:55:12 AM
Quote from: TLLK on December 24, 2019, 02:47:36 AM
Sadly the Spencer children (especially the younger ones) felt the impact of their parents' divorce and it did affect them long into adulthood. Sarah, Diana and Charles all had their struggles in their youth and young adulthood and IMO some of that was due to their parents' painful divorce.
I believe this colored Diana's attitude to the female caregivers in her sons' lives and their bond with them played on her insecurities. :no:
I don't entirely blame her. I think that because she lost her mother so young and her father was so odd, sometimes affectionate but keeping himself to himself.. and then marrying Raine whom they all disliked.. she was scared of people leaving her.. or not responding to her. So she was afraid that staff would betray her, and friends would betray her (sadly one or 2 did, including Hewitt).. and was uneasy with them. So sometimes she would be very friendly with the staff and then she would get uneasy and frightened and be angry with them. She was the same with Burrell, beign very friendly with hm and then complaining because although he worked long hours for her, he sometimes ran up a bit of a phone bill and she got mad over that.
And with the boys she adored them.. they were her life..so she was afraid of them forming close attachments to their nannies and "big sister" Tiggy. As far as I can remember there were indications fo that in her complaint about Tiggy.
But Will invited Tiggy to Eton for a day, when he would normally have been expected to invite his parents and that must have hurt Diana. But it didn't stop WIll from inviting her and being very close to her and to his other nannies...
^^^I agree that Diana never accepted Tiggy's bond with her sons. Tiggy should have never have said anything publicly about Diana and Diana should have never made her libelous remark about Tiggy.
Had Diana lived I doubt should would have been pleased that her sons wanted to continue a relationship with her.
QuoteI don't entirely blame her. I think that because she lost her mother so young and her father was so odd, sometimes affectionate but keeping himself to himself.. and then marrying Raine whom they all disliked.. she was scared of people leaving her.. or not responding to her.
Perfectly stated
@amabel. Yes the whole divorce episode took its toll on the Spencer children with Diana, Sarah and Charles having long lasting issues.
Saying something like that ONCE to Tiggy, in front of people, was appalling. It was Slander. The Legge Bourkes wanted to go to court and Diana would have been in trouble...
I don't believe the change in policy was entirely diana's decision. I think the queen was annoyed at Williams awful acting up at the wedding and insisted on soemthing being done about him. And hopefully Diana could see with the storeis that emerged from his nursery school naughty behaviour, that thngs had to change... so she took the opportunity to get Barbara B out, and agreed to future Nannies being much stricter with him and Harry...
Quote from: wannable on December 09, 2019, 02:48:08 PM
How did you take the news?
In a strange way I was relieved. There had been so much gossip about it and I hoped and hoped the gossip would be found false. It wore on me, so in a way it was good to finally know for sure. Now I see it was for the best, and had Diana lived and finally found the right guy, we would all be saluting her happiness.
Yes, I think she would have re married and settled eventually. I think she would still be living in the UK. Not too far from PW and PH and their families, IMO.
I don't think she'd have rushed into a marriage and dated a few people and not "settled."
Of course there has to be dating when you're looking for a spouse, IMO.
I think she would have taken her time getting to know someone, I agree.
By settled I mean not for a person, but into a life/life style of her choosing, post 'windsor', as a married woman. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 09:13:26 PM
Yes, I think she would have re married and settled eventually. I think she would still be living in the UK. Not too far from PW and PH and their families, IMO.
we don't know this at all.. She "talked endlessly of getting away from England.." and many of the men she dated were not English....However she wasn't having much luck in fiding a new husband.. so she might not have remarried...
Diana expressed perhaps wanting go get away when the press became to much. It doesn't mean that she would act on it, IMO.
She only dated two non english men, both of whom were based in England.
I don't think she had 'bad' luck. She was still young at 36 and had time.
Quote from: amabel on January 01, 2020, 09:27:23 PM
we don't know this at all.. She "talked endlessly of getting away from England.." and many of the men she dated were not English....However she wasn't having much luck in fiding a new husband.. so she might not have remarried...
I'd like to mention that Diana could only find a husband after her divorce was final. She only had one year as a divorcee before she died. She hardly could rush to find a second one which would be "settling".
It was not as if she were single 20 years after the divorce. She was only 36 years old and I doubt she'd have rushed into anything. Even if she found Mr Right no way would she have remarried right away in any case. Too soon.
She had very bad luck.. SHe lost a man who was in love with her, a worthwhile man.. and wound up with - Dodi...Many of her friends in her last few years were not Enlglish, like Lucia Flecha, or her American friends.. or the Khans.. She was moving away from the UK a lot mentally and I think she might have moved away physically when the boys were a bit older.. According to her brother she talked about it "endlessly".. and I think she certainly did consider it. If she HAD married Dodi, he spent a lot of time abroad.. She tried to get a job for Hasnat Khan in S Africa...
Even when she was involved in an affair with Oliver Hoare, she seems to have considered moving to Italy with him..
Diana did not "lose" a man. She of her own free will decided to stop seeing Hasnet Khan. She and Khan talked at length and she tried and she decided to end the relationship and she changed her number. Khan confessed he was trying to reach her so he did not get "lost". He told the media later he wanted to talk to her. But she changed her number.
SHe did not "wind up" with Dodi, there was no marriage nor even an engagement. Dating him did not mean they were getting married.
Diana had close friends Elsa Bowker, Rosa Monckton and Carolyn Bartholomew who were English. A friend is a friend English or not, ANd Lucia Flecha never sold her out.
I don't see Diana as moving away mentally. Home was where her sons were. Even though her sons would get older they still were her sons.
Hoare and DIana never discussed the nature of their relationship and the secret went to their grave. No way could she have married Hoare. Or would she have. I think Hoare was too slick in any case.
I think there were some loose ends with Hasnet that were never quite resolved before Diana's death. Even if they got on the same page I don't think Diana would rush into a marriage with Hasnet. She was only divorced a year.
Quote from: amabel on January 01, 2020, 09:37:33 PM
She had very bad luck.. SHe lost a man who was in love with her, a worthwhile man.. and wound up with - Dodi...Many of her friends in her last few years were not Enlglish, like Lucia Flecha, or her American friends.. or the Khans.. She was moving away from the UK a lot mentally and I think she might have moved away physically when the boys were a bit older.. According to her brother she talked about it "endlessly".. and I think she certainly did consider it. If she HAD married Dodi, he spent a lot of time abroad.. She tried to get a job for Hasnat Khan in S Africa...
Even when she was involved in an affair with Oliver Hoare, she seems to have considered moving to Italy with him..
She did not have bad luck. She ended things with one partner who insisted on sneaking around with her even after the press caught on to them. Very unworthy behaviour IMO.
Diana was only dating Fayed. It doesn't have to mean anything serious.
Many people have friends from different nationalities, that doesn't mean that they want to live in another country.
It is doubtful if she really wanted to live abroad with Hoare. She did not even want to live in the UK with him.
She sadly ended up with Dodi Fayed.. and it brought her to her tragic death...
Double post auto-merged: January 01, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 09:43:24 PM
She did not have bad luck. She ended things with one partner who insisted on sneaking around with her even after the press caught on to them. Very unworthy behaviour IMO.
Diana was only dating Fayed. It doesn't have to mean anything serious.
Many people have friends from different nationalities, that doesn't mean that they want to live in another country.
It is doubtful if she really wanted to live abroad with Hoare. She did not even want to live in the UK with him.
If she didn't want to live with him, she could have saved herself a lot of effort, phoning him..
Diana dated Fayed for weeks and nothing happened. She even wrote him a letter thanking him and seemed very happy in general. I think they were fond of each other.
It was a tragic accident.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 09:45:49 PM
Diana dated Fayed for weeks and nothing happened. She even wrote him a letter thanking him and seemed very happy in general. I think they were fond of each other.
It was a tragic accident.
Nothing happened? She was involved iwht him for a few weeks.. and he was beginning to irritate her but alas she did not break off the relationship in time...
She did not "end up" with him. He was a man she dated and the two died in a car accident. They were not married or engaged. Diana did not know she was going to die soon, so she would not have known it was "too late" to break up with him.
She ended up being a single woman when she died. A divorcee of a year with two children by that marriage.
If she had not died in an accident, she certainly would not have had quick marriage with Dodi. She told people she needed another marriage like a "Bad Rash." Does not sound like she was hearing wedding bells.
Quote from: sandy on January 01, 2020, 09:47:37 PM
She did not "end up" with him. He was a man she dated and the two died in a car accident. They were not married or engaged.
She ended up being a single woman when she died. A divorcee of a year with two children by that marriage.
If she had not died in an accident, she certainly would not have had quick marriage with Dodi. She told people she needed another marriage like a "Bad Rash." Does not sound like she was hearing wedding bells.
A pity she did not end the relationship then. She was with Dodi, staying at his flat or on holiday with him for quite a bit of time in her last few weeks.
amabel, DIana did not just hang around dodi that Summer. She took a vacation trip with Rosa Monckton to Greece. And she was supposed to be vacationing with a woman friend of hers in August when the friend got sick (it could have been Lana Marks, I have to look it up) so she met with Dodi.
Quote from: amabel on January 01, 2020, 09:44:21 PM
She sadly ended up with Dodi Fayed.. and it brought her to her tragic death...
Double post auto-merged: January 01, 2020, 09:45:13 PM
If she didn't want to live with him, she could have saved herself a lot of effort, phoning him..
Hoare moved out of the home he shared with Mrs Hoare. And had his own place. Diana could have rushed to move in with him had she really wanted to. She didn't.
He could have saved a lot of effort if he had not tried to comfort another unhappily married woman. This is not the first time at that rodeo when he pursued Diana.
Quote from: amabel on January 01, 2020, 09:47:28 PM
Nothing happened? She was involved iwht him for a few weeks.. and he was beginning to irritate her but alas she did not break off the relationship in time...
She initiated PDA with him on the last night of her life so how fed up could she have been?
We don't know because they're not here to tell us.
I think that Diana would have continued to date him for a while. But I don't think she would have married him.
Quote from: TLLK on January 01, 2020, 09:52:51 PM
If she's one of the employers or the sole one than yes she could choose to terminate the contract. If she's not the employer, then that is not going to happen as the care giver has a contract with the other parent. We are all aware that the Wales fired more than one staff member including William and Harry's care givers. Other BRF members have had to fire their staff too. Likewise the Sussexes have already dismissed one of their nannies for reported unprofessional conduct.
Charles did give his permission and assented to it. Apparently. They were not separated then.
DOdi and Diana never spoke to the media about the nature of their relationship. Maybe Dodi wanted to court her for marriage but that did not mean Diana had to agree to it. A woman is free to leave a relationship. Maybe Dodi was dating her for fun. There is nor proof he wanted to marry her. AL Fayed wanted his son to marry Diana but that did not mean it had to happen.
A nanny did not work out with the family. I know Junor uses this against Diana but I don't see any scandal. It might have turned out worse if Barnes were allowed to stay and William continued to act out.
But he would not have played up, if he had been told off firmly when he was naughty. In the end the discipline was for Dina and Charles to agree upon and convey to their nannies what they wanted doene. Since they would not let the nannies tlell the boys off, they soon learned to play up.
Quote from: amabel on January 01, 2020, 09:55:51 PM
well Diana was always on and off. She frequently said one thng and idd another.. or contradicted herself.. From what some staff have said, she was a bit complaining about him..and was saying she did not want to marry him.. but she must have realised that Dodi was there to court her into marriage.. He wasn't dating her for fun but to ask her to marry him. so by going on seeing him she was putting herself in an ambivalent position....So I think its quite possible she might say she was going to break with him one day and be out with him another day...
Diana was only dating Fayed. Regardless of his intentions, if she did not consent he could not have married her.
I think they were fond of each other and had fun. I think she would have gone on to date him maybe for a couple of months but that's it, IMO.
Then she was putting herself in a very false positon? because Dodi was there to propose.. which was why he had ditched his girlfriend and started courting Di. And she said that "if he gave her a ring it would go on her right hand" which seems to suggest a willingness to accept a ring.. but not to marry him..
They were only dating. She dated him because she liked him. How is this putting oneself in a false position?
Diana perhaps was fond enough to continue dating him but not marrying.
Because if you accept expensive gifts from a man, it is a bit tasteless to say "Im willing to accept your expensive ring but I think we should stop seeing each other.."
But she did not stop seeing him.
She was probably fond of him and perhaps wanted to continue dating him for a while.
She did not accept that ring "Tell Me Yes" which was in Dodi's Paris apartment and they never got there. I see nothing wrong with Diana accepting gifts. She may have given him presents in turn. The "expensive" Tell Me Yes ring was never given to her nor was seen on her finger.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 10:16:45 PM
But she did not stop seeing him.
She was probably fond of him and perhaps wanted to continue dating him for a while.
yes of course she didn't stop seeing him - its a great pity that the relationship didnt' end after one holiday.. because it ended with her death. I dotn think she was all that fond of him.. I think she was attracted to him at first because he had a lot of time to bestow on her.. but even within a fairly short affair, she was getting a bit irritated with hs messy lifestyle and his character. She must have seen how dominated he was by his father, and heard something of the stories of another woman and his not payng his bills. but to keep up the affair and take presents, if she didn't really intend to keep it up for long put her in in a false positon. She told Rosa Monkcton that she didn't like it when Dodi talked about all the presents he was giving her.. but she must have known that by accepting them she was accepting the idea that it was a serious relationship and that it might end in marriage. She knew presumably about the "pre engagement" ring that he watnted to give her, and if she had taken that and "put it on her right hand" it was in effect signalling that she'd be open to receiving a real engagement ring..
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:37:38 AM
yes of course she didn't stop seeing him - its a great pity that the relationship didnt' end after one holiday.. because it ended with her death. I dotn think she was all that fond of him.. I think she was attracted to him at first because he had a lot of time to bestow on her.. but even within a fairly short affair, she was getting a bit irritated with hs messy lifestyle and his character. She must have seen how dominated he was by his father, and heard something of the stories of another woman and his not payng his bills. but to keep up the affair and take presents, if she didn't really intend to keep it up for long put her in in a false positon. She told Rosa Monkcton that she didn't like it when Dodi talked about all the presents he was giving her.. but she must have known that by accepting them she was accepting the idea that it was a serious relationship and that it might end in marriage. She knew presumably about the "pre engagement" ring that he watnted to give her, and if she had taken that and "put it on her right hand" it was in effect signalling that she'd be open to receiving a real engagement ring..
Her death was not because of a romance.
She might have liked him enough to keep on dating him but not to accept any marriage. Perhaps this was just a subject lightly discussed with Monckton and not meant in a serious way.
There is footage of Diana being affectionate with him and engaging in PDA with him even while in the elevator waiting for the car on their last night. That doesn't indicate fed up to me. She would not have married him, IMO, but I think she would have gone on to date him for a while longer.
I think Diana was attracted to him because he showed qualities that appealed to her. She was also a busy woman and did not spend all summer with him. So I don't think it was just a matter of Fayed giving all his time to her. There are accounts of him also working while Diana was there. I think they both respected each others working schedule so to speak.
Diana might have seen things that confirmed to her that marriage was perhaps not on the cards. But then again I don't think it was that serious, and no one is without flaws, so I think Diana was realistic.
They were dating at the time and Diana also gave him her fathers cufflinks to show her appreciation. People give each other gifts when they are in a relationship. Nothing unusual about this, IMO.
I don't think that Fayed and Diana were all that serious, but I don't think she would have ended things immediately after the summer.
I think that Fayed has been maligned and portrayed in such a way as to further 'drive home the point' that Diana was acting 'irrationally' and 'irresponsibly'.
This is why, IMO, there's this two dimensional view of Khan as 'complete' and 'wonderful' who did what he could to put up with the 'erratic' Diana.
In truth she was an intelligent woman who contemplated and thought things through. She decided it was worth it to move on and that she deserved more. And sought after more. This is a normal and healthy thought process that is encouraged for everyone.
But that doesn't go well with the 'crazy' Diana narrative.
ANd DIana tried with Hasnet but after a certain point she realized it would not work out. I don't think Hasnet was all that "saintly."
She flat out told Khan that it was over. She even changed her phone number. That says something IMO.
At some point most people have to draw a line and say enough is enough.
I personally don't think she was all to pleased with his behaviour. Besides that he wasn't the end all be all.
Good on Diana for putting her self worth ahead.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 02, 2020, 12:53:01 PM
Her death was not because of a romance.
She might have liked him enough to keep on dating him but not to accept any marriage. Perhaps this was just a subject lightly discussed with Monckton and not meant in a serious way.
There is footage of Diana being affectionate with him and engaging in PDA with him even while in the elevator waiting for the car on their last night. That doesn't indicate fed up to me. She would not have married him, IMO, but I think she would have gone on to date him for a while longer.
I think Diana was attracted to him because he showed qualities that appealed to her. She was also a busy woman and did not spend all summer with him. So I don't think it was just a matter of Fayed giving all his time to her. There are accounts of him also working while Diana was there. I think they both respected each others working schedule so to speak.
Diana might have seen things that confirmed to her that marriage was perhaps not on the cards. But then again I don't think it was that serious, and no one is without flaws, so I think Diana was realistic.
They were dating at the time and Diana also gave him her fathers cufflinks to show her appreciation. People give each other gifts when they are in a relationship. Nothing unusual about this, IMO.
I don't think that Fayed and Diana were all that serious, but I don't think she would have ended things immediately after the summer.
I think that Fayed has been maligned and portrayed in such a way as to further 'drive home the point' that Diana was acting 'irrationally' and 'irresponsibly'.
This is why, IMO, there's this two dimensional view of Khan as 'complete' and 'wonderful' who did what he could to put up with the 'erratic' Diana.
In truth she was an intelligent woman who contemplated and thought things through. She decided it was worth it to move on and that she deserved more. And sought after more. This is a normal and healthy thought process that is encouraged for everyone.
But that doesn't go well with the 'crazy' Diana narrative.
Yes her death was largely due to " a romance". If she had not been on holiday with Dodi, she would not have been in Paris.. at that time. If Dodi had been a more sensible person and listened ot his bodyguards they probably would not have ended up in the car chase and crash...It was Dodi who called in Henri Paul to drive for them and Henri lost control of the car, drove too fast, taunted the photographers...
And what work was Dodi doing while they were together? He had no job.. all he had was occasionally turning up in Hollywood calling himself a producer...
I don't quite knw what picutres there are of Diana engaging in "PDA" with him while they were wating for the lift.. as I recall she was looking tense.. and if she was touching Dodi it was probably nervously hoping for reassurance that she'd get home without the photographers hassling them..
And taking expensive presents from a boyfriend IMO is an indication that you want to go further In the relationship. She said that if Dodi gave her a ring, she would put it on her right hand.. but taking an expensive ring, is IMO an indication that you are treating the relationship as a serious one and willing to accept or consider marriage. But Diana told more than one person that she had no intention of marrying..
Not puling away from someone is hardly PDA...
Quote from: sandy on January 02, 2020, 05:12:32 PM
Only they knew and they are dead now.
I would harldy call it PDA. From what I can remember he had his arm around her but she looked tense with all the hassle and palaver..I dont think ti was any indication of deep affection... I think she was just longing to get safely to the flat and get past the paparazzi...
Quote from: sandy on January 02, 2020, 05:59:16 PM
I disagree, putting a ring on the right hand is an example of a ring not meaning engaged or engaged to be engaged. She would be sending Dodi a signal that there is no engagement. Rosa said Diana used the word "if" which meant Diana did not know about the Ring. It would have been better had Diana known about the Tell Me YEs Ring in advance and had seen it since it would have spared a trip to Dodi's apartment on the night of AUgust 31.
I have seen seatbelts deemed "working" but they did not pull out the entire way to click on. Or they got stuck when they were pulled out.
if the belts were tested, then that would be an indication of whether they were working or not. If they "got stuck" haolf way, then they would be malfunctioning.
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 02:22:58 PM
where is this footage? Sorry the only thing I've seen is a brief clip of her going out with Dodi or watiign with Dodi for the car. She looked tense. not surprisingly...
Yes Henri did taunt the press, saying "You will never catch us" and driving away at top speed.. He wasn't a qualified driver. He had been drinking and taking Prozac and he clearly wasn't the best person to drive a car and dodge the press.. but Dodi wanted to use him and not take his bodyguards advice or better stil, stay in the hotel for the night. Drivng too fast, none of them wearing their seat belts and having a driver who was impaired by drink and drugs, was a recipe for an accident to happen.
Dodi had never worked as a producer.. He briefly dabbled in it and his name was on a few movies but he never learned the business.. what work was he doing? He was on holiday with Diana 3 times in about a month, what work would he be doing while he was on holiday?
Diana must have known that Dodi was working up to a marriage proposal. If she didn't want to accept such a proposal fair enough but then I would say it was foolish to raise expectations by offering or receiving expensive gifts esp ones with symbolism like a ring.. The better thing to do would be to say "No thanks, I don't want to accept such a valuable gift.. I'd justl like us to get to know each other better..." (And Diana seems to have said to several people that it was just a summer romance and a bit of fun, so doing a lot of gift exchanging does not seem appropriate to me.. esp when she said she din't like Dodi's talking about all the expensive presents he was giving her...
There's plenty on youtube and there are photographs also. She goes up to him and gives him a hug and then pulls his arm towards her. Hardly the actions of someone fed up, IMO.
How much did he drink? There is a video of him bending down to tie his shoestrings and then go up and walk around naturally. I don't think anyone drunk could have done that.
Producing is not necessarily a 9-5 job. The work load varies, and he could have been in the process of finding and/ or developing a future film and so on.
He was on vacation with Diana because he had some time on his hands? Some actors work very intensly on set for a certain amount of time, say three months for instance, and then their work load eases.
Diana and Fayed were dating. It makes perfect sense to accept some gifts if she wanted to continue seeing him. This is what people do in relationships. However none of that means that Diana had to accept a marriage proposal. You can't purchase love.
I've had a look on youtube and seen some security footage, rather blurry but I didn't see her giving him a hug.
Dodi didn't have any work.. He dabbled in film production but did not take much interest in it and David Puttnam kicked him off the set of Chariots of Fire for tryng ot pas around drugs. He was not a worker..Why would he be finding a film product when he was on holiday with Diana about 3 times in the space of a month?
Henri Paul had at least 2 drinks according to the bar bill and he was away from the hotel for a time so he may well have had more.. and he was taking Prozac which is not supposed to be mixed with alcohol. Just because he could tie his shoelace does not mean that he wasn't affected enough to act foolishly, as he clearly did. He took off very fast, he taunted photographers and he didn't put on his seat belt... He didn't have the training or licence to drive a heavy car like the one he was driving....
clearly Dodi WAS trying to purchase love by teling Diana of all the presents that he was buyng for her... so to accept them was in effect giving him a mixed message... She said that she didn't lik him doing this but she did nto have a talk with him and say tht she didn't want presents, she wanted to get to know him better and she didn't need things...
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
Quote from: sandy on January 02, 2020, 06:53:21 PM
So how come Diana picked that One Night not to buckle up? Even her sisters said publicly that she did religiously used her seatbelts. I think they are not buying that she was "careless". Rees Jones has amnesia. I think something went wrong with those seatbelts. it makes Rees Jones look like he was negligent in not checking the seatbelts and also ensuring all were buckled up if they were working. Lots of unanswered questions.
Rhys jones could not make his principals buckle up. He did not do so because bodyguards usually don't.. and if Dodi and Diana didn't want to there was nothing that he could do to make them. I don't know why Diana didn't put on her seatbelt but the evidence is that no one In the car did....
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 08:18:16 PM
Quote from: TLLK on January 02, 2020, 07:14:57 PM
@sandy-All of them were not wearing seat belts that night and ultimately that played a part in contributing to their deaths. We'll never know why they didn't put them on.
My guess would be that in their rush to leave the hotel and escape the paparazzi is that they simply forgot and sadly three of the four occupants were so badly injured that they died at the scene or in Diana's case not long afterwards.
If Diana usually did it, I suspect she was stressed out by the whole farrago with the car, the bodyguards, Dodi's insisting on his clever plan to use Paul as a driver etc.. and she just wanted to get back to the flat and get away from the scene. I think she was tired and fed up and longing to get out of the hotel and be somewhere private.. and as it was a short journey and no one else was buckling up, she did not do so either.
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:02:09 PM
I've had a look on youtube and seen some security footage, rather blurry but I didn't see her giving him a hug.
Dodi didn't have any work.. He dabbled in film production but did not take much interest in it and David Puttnam kicked him off the set of Chariots of Fire for tryng ot pas around drugs. He was not a worker..Why would he be finding a film product when he was on holiday with Diana about 3 times in the space of a month?
Henri Paul had at least 2 drinks according to the bar bill and he was away from the hotel for a time so he may well have had more.. and he was taking Prozac which is not supposed to be mixed with alcohol. Just because he could tie his shoelace does not mean that he wasn't affected enough to act foolishly, as he clearly did. He took off very fast, he taunted photographers and he didn't put on his seat belt... He didn't have the training or licence to drive a heavy car like the one he was driving....
clearly Dodi WAS trying to purchase love by teling Diana of all the presents that he was buyng for her... so to accept them was in effect giving him a mixed message... She said that she didn't lik him doing this but she did nto have a talk with him and say tht she didn't want presents, she wanted to get to know him better and she didn't need things...
I've seen a video of Diana walking up to Fayed and pulling him close to her. I'll try to look it up later on.
If Paul had mixed alcohol with Prozac it would have affected his senses and it would have been rather obvious. Yet the man tied his shoelaces and walked around in general without a problem. So he had no problem with the balance, even though he mixed alcohol with medicine. Strange.
I read an article somewhere where a writer or someone said that Fayed had invited him to discuss a potential movie.
His father thought him interested to such an extent that he set up a film production company for him. The movies they
produced were not bad; hook, chariots of fire. Fayed might not have done the majority of work but probably did his part as a producer or a co-producor.
That drug incident was foolish of Fayed. IMO.
This mostly shows that Diana wasn't interest in the materialistic and that perhaps Fayed hadn't realized that about her, thus reminding her.
No one is perfect, and cleary Diana did not mind continuing dating him so he perhaps hade other sides that made up for that?
I don't think that Diana was all that serious about him, and just glad to have some harmless fun.
If Dianad wasn't interested in the "materialistic" why accept his gifts? Why say that she would take a ring and put it on her right hand? and if she wasn't serious about him why accept a lot of gifts at all? Most people would feel uneasy about taking a lot of expensive gifts from a man who was just a light hearted fling.. esp when the gifts were paid for by his father...
according to the toxicology report Paul had alcohol in his blood enough to be over the drink driving limit and he also had Prozac.. If he was a hardened drinker, several drinks and some Prozac would not necessary affect his ability to do physical things.. there are plenty of people who can do all sorts of things blind drunk, including driving.. but he had clearly ahd enough alcholhol to blunt his judgement and make him act stupidly and drive far too fast..
Dodi didn't do any work on Chariots, he was kicked off the set. He was at that time a drug user...(which Diana very much disapproved of)?
His father was trying to find some kind of occupation for him, since he obviously was not up to taking over the Fayed business Empire..
And since Dodi liked films he tried to get him interested in working in the movie business, but Dodi was not interested in work... Just like he went to Sandhurst and didn't want to become an army officer...
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 09:25:04 PM
Of course there has to be dating when you're looking for a spouse, IMO.
I think she would have taken her time getting to know someone, I agree.
By settled I mean not for a person, but into a life/life style of her choosing, post 'windsor', as a married woman. IMO.
@oak_and_cedar, I completely agree that Lady Diana should have taken a lot more time getting to know Prince Charles.
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:28:21 PM
If Dianad wasn't interested in the "materialistic" why accept his gifts? Why say that she would take a ring and put it on her right hand? and if she wasn't serious about him why accept a lot of gifts at all? Most people would feel uneasy about taking a lot of expensive gifts from a man who was just a light hearted fling.. esp when the gifts were paid for by his father...
according to the toxicology report Paul had alcohol in his blood enough to be over the drink driving limit and he also had Prozac.. If he was a hardened drinker, several drinks and some Prozac would not necessary affect his ability to do physical things.. there are plenty of people who can do all sorts of things blind drunk, including driving.. but he had clearly ahd enough alcholhol to blunt his judgement and make him act stupidly and drive far too fast..
Dodi didn't do any work on Chariots, he was kicked off the set. He was at that time a drug user...(which Diana very much disapproved of)?
His father was trying to find some kind of occupation for him, since he obviously was not up to taking over the Fayed business Empire..
And since Dodi liked films he tried to get him interested in working in the movie business, but Dodi was not interested in work... Just like he went to Sandhurst and didn't want to become an army officer...
Diana did give presents to her significant others. She was not just a "taker." So all women who date can't accept gifts? On Valentines Day some couples who have only dated a few times give gifts. Nothing wrong with it.
Diana never got that ring, they never got to his apartment. It is a moot point.
If DOdi were kicked off the set his name would not have been in the credits.
AL Fayed is still alive so if Dodi had lived he would not have inherited the business.
Double post auto-merged: January 03, 2020, 01:16:10 AM
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:02:09 PM
I've had a look on youtube and seen some security footage, rather blurry but I didn't see her giving him a hug.
Dodi didn't have any work.. He dabbled in film production but did not take much interest in it and David Puttnam kicked him off the set of Chariots of Fire for tryng ot pas around drugs. He was not a worker..Why would he be finding a film product when he was on holiday with Diana about 3 times in the space of a month?
Henri Paul had at least 2 drinks according to the bar bill and he was away from the hotel for a time so he may well have had more.. and he was taking Prozac which is not supposed to be mixed with alcohol. Just because he could tie his shoelace does not mean that he wasn't affected enough to act foolishly, as he clearly did. He took off very fast, he taunted photographers and he didn't put on his seat belt... He didn't have the training or licence to drive a heavy car like the one he was driving....
clearly Dodi WAS trying to purchase love by teling Diana of all the presents that he was buyng for her... so to accept them was in effect giving him a mixed message... She said that she didn't lik him doing this but she did nto have a talk with him and say tht she didn't want presents, she wanted to get to know him better and she didn't need things...
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 08:15:42 PM
Rhys jones could not make his principals buckle up. He did not do so because bodyguards usually don't.. and if Dodi and Diana didn't want to there was nothing that he could do to make them. I don't know why Diana didn't put on her seatbelt but the evidence is that no one In the car did....
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 08:18:16 PM
If Diana usually did it, I suspect she was stressed out by the whole farrago with the car, the bodyguards, Dodi's insisting on his clever plan to use Paul as a driver etc.. and she just wanted to get back to the flat and get away from the scene. I think she was tired and fed up and longing to get out of the hotel and be somewhere private.. and as it was a short journey and no one else was buckling up, she did not do so either.
Rees Jones certainly could have told them to buckle up and told Henri Paul not to go, maybe get hold of the car keys. If he was visibly drunk, it was Jones' responsibility to keep him from driving. If he knew there would be a chase he should have told them to buckle up or they would not move. He does not remember. He may not even tried.
Henri's family spoke up and denied that he could have had all that drug and alcohol in his system. As a matter of fact, the first blood test taken was inaccurate and it had to be retaken.
Diana is constantly criticized in some blogs (not on this thread) for causing her own death. But since Rees Jones has amnesia there are unanswered questions. It is telling that her sisters did not blame DIana, they thought it was odd since Diana religiously buckled up in any vehicle
Sometimes hierarchies must be ignored. Strangers in bars stop drunk people from driving. Rees Jones amnesia is probably permanent so he can't give any details.
@sandy-I agree with you but the bodyguards were likely used to Dodi and Mohamed ignoring their suggestions and these men wanted to stay employed. :shrug: Dodi was the one who came up with the plan to use Henri Paul (an unexperienced driver) that night and we all know how it ended.
It may have been more a question of ethics. Saving lives.
Quote from: TLLK on January 03, 2020, 02:39:43 AM
@sandy-I agree with you but the bodyguards were likely used to Dodi and Mohamed ignoring their suggestions and these men wanted to stay employed. :shrug: Dodi was the one who came up with the plan to use Henri Paul (an unexperienced driver) that night and we all know how it ended.
Henri P was not visibly drunk.. but he had still taken enough mixed with the Prozac to make him over the limit and a dangerous person to drive. he didn't have the training for the big car.. He had some alcohol taken.. but he was a drinker and as such he could probably have taken a lot of booze without its visibly impairing him. People can drive drunk and there are plenty of people who can take a lot of alcohol and you would not know it because they are used to it and it does not show in anything like stumbling or slurring or sounding incoherent.
It wasn't up to the bodyguards..
Dodi's father had hired the man and Dodi had called him in to drive, whereas the guards wanted to go with a conventional plan of one of them staying with Dodi and one driving a back up car.. but Dodi wanted to go with HIS plan. If they had refused to do that, Dodi would just have ignored them, possibly had them fired and gone on with his own ideas.. and driven away with Henri P at the wheel and possibly no guards whatsoever.
Even then while it was not a good plan, it need not have been a disaster if Henri P had driven sensibly but he taunted the press, seting them on to chase him and then took off fast and outdistanced them..and lost control of the car at the tunnel...
Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:28:21 PM
If Dianad wasn't interested in the "materialistic" why accept his gifts? Why say that she would take a ring and put it on her right hand? and if she wasn't serious about him why accept a lot of gifts at all? Most people would feel uneasy about taking a lot of expensive gifts from a man who was just a light hearted fling.. esp when the gifts were paid for by his father...
according to the toxicology report Paul had alcohol in his blood enough to be over the drink driving limit and he also had Prozac.. If he was a hardened drinker, several drinks and some Prozac would not necessary affect his ability to do physical things.. there are plenty of people who can do all sorts of things blind drunk, including driving.. but he had clearly ahd enough alcholhol to blunt his judgement and make him act stupidly and drive far too fast..
Dodi didn't do any work on Chariots, he was kicked off the set. He was at that time a drug user...(which Diana very much disapproved of)?
His father was trying to find some kind of occupation for him, since he obviously was not up to taking over the Fayed business Empire..
And since Dodi liked films he tried to get him interested in working in the movie business, but Dodi was not interested in work... Just like he went to Sandhurst and didn't want to become an army officer...
She probably accepted gifts because she was fond of him and did not want to hurt his feelings or offend. She herself used to gift people things in gratitude.
Most of the gifts he gave her were items that she herself could purchase so it's not like she accepted anything worth millions of pounds. It was rather silly of Fayed to recount the items he gifted and Diana had a right to be irritated. This indicates to me that Diana did not care all that much for the material and probably had a word with Fayed. She must have not minded all that much in the end because she kept on seeing him.
A hardened drinker does not take a drink or two, IMO. They drink enough to feel it. Add Prozac in the mix. It's a wonder he could walk straight. Yet there he was bending down to tie his shoestrings, and then getting up and walking around normally.
He was kicked off one time. I seriously doubt that the director having worked in Hollywood for a long time would offend a production company owner and a heavy investor like MAF. MAF even might have had a word with his son. Fayed perhaps realized that this was not the way to go and straightened his act so to speak. I haven't read about him being kicked out more times.
Was he an active user when dating Diana? I thought that he was 'clean' by that time?
I've read accounts of an author who met both Diana and Fayed and who was 'courted' by Fayed for a movie. It sounds like an investment in his profession to me.
If she didn't "care for the material" she could have politely refused the gifts.. She told Rosa M that she didn't like what he was doing but by accepting the gifts she was giving him a signal that she was seriously interested, witout putting herself in a positon of accepting a lot of expensive things and possibly a ring, from a man she didn't care that much about and was not going to pursue a serious relationoship with.
Its possible to exchange gifts in a light hearted relationship without spending thousands of pounds on them or boasting to your ladyfriend about what you (Or rather yor father) is spending on her. Diana claimed not to like that atmosphere of conspicuous consumption but she was playng into it... and if she did not want to keep up the relationship beyond a summer romance, it looks bad to have a lot of expensive gifts that the man gave you...Its surprising that if she didn't like what Dodi was doing, she let him go along with it, esp as she must have realised that she was being set up by MAF to be proposed to soon by Dodi.
David Puttnam did't care if he offended MAF and Dodi.. he did not want drugs passed around on his set and he could get alogn without them.. Dodi was not working in production... He dabbled and possibly talked to people occasionally, so that he could claim he was doing something but the real wrork was done by others. MAF had tried to get Dodi into some kind of work, but he didn't stick it at Sandhurst, he wasn't up to running the family business and when he had been put into a position of learning about production, he didn't stick at that either.. but it gave him an excuse to date starlets and occasionally talk to someone about "a project". He was a typical "not very bright son of a successful father" In that he wasn't up to doing anyting, but idling around spending his father 's money and he could not even pay his bills with the money he was given...
MAF Then thought of getting Dodi to court Diana.. He was no good at business, he hadn't managed to become an "English gentleman" but he was single and could possibly win the hand of an Ex princess.. so MAF told him to drop his girlfriend and come alogn and pay court to Diana. And he did amuse her for a few weeks but it does not look like she took him very seriously... So Dodi wasn't even very good at helping his father by making a splendid marriage...
No one can say how much Diana cared about Fayed except Diana. She certainly cared enough to get into a relationship.
If you are dating someone and they want to give you gifts, usually, if you intend on dating them, you accept. This does not mean that she was bound by this to marriage. And hopefully Fayed did not interpret this as such. It would be, in my own personal opinion, strange to make that assumption. People get involved in relationships every day and regardless of the 'ending' people do get gifts.
We don't know how long the relationship would have carried on. There was no deadline. She could very well have gone on to date him for months.
Fayed perhaps tried many things and left some that weren't to his liking. Nonetheless he seemed to have been interested in film making and even sought new material for his company and there are accounts of him working when Diana was there. We won't know his day to day routine unless someone like MAF releases it. Regardless, the film industry is not like the average 9-5 job and can't be compared to one, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 03, 2020, 03:56:47 PM
No one can say how much Diana cared about Fayed except Diana. She certainly cared enough to get into a relationship.
If you are dating someone and they want to give you gifts, usually, if you intend on dating them, you accept. This does not mean that she was bound by this to marriage. And hopefully Fayed did not interpret this as such. It would be, in my own personal opinion, strange to make that assumption. People get involved in relationships every day and regardless of the 'ending' people do get gifts.
We don't know how long the relationship would have carried on. There was no deadline. She could very well have gone on to date him for months.
Fayed perhaps tried many things and left some that weren't to his liking. Nonetheless he seemed to have been interested in film making and even sought new material for his company and there are accounts of him working when Diana was there. We won't know his day to day routine unless someone like MAF releases it. Regardless, the film industry is not like the average 9-5 job and can't be compared to one, IMO.
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I don't know of any reports of him working while Diana was on hols with him. In fact people said that the reason she seemed happy with him, was that he had no job and was free to entertain and amuse her all day for a while..
He was a typical "not very bright" son of a rich man. He didn't have his father's drive and ambition... He dabbled In things, didn't stick to anything and MAF was trying to find something he could do to occupy himself...HE had been sent to learn the Film business in Hollywood, but had not turned up half the time and on his time on Chariots of Fire, Putnam had kicked him off the set. Not exactly a sign of a devoted worker or someone anxious to learn the business. But it was his official "occupation"..
Diana may have liked Dodi at first - he was a bit of a lost soul, but I think within a short time she was a little bored with him and just stayed in the relationship because it was summer time... she was pleased to have someone to take her and the boys on holiday and have a bit of fun.. but she could see Dodi wasn't serious husband material and that he was domnated by his father...
All the same, to take expensive gifts did not look good, esp when she was teling Rosa Monckton that it made her uncomfortable.. T
Dodi was not in the news, Diana was. In between their holidays together, I did not read anyplace anywhere about his activities. Diana certainly had much coverage and she and Rosa's vacation in Greece was interrupted by the paparazzi.
Diana's feelings about Dodi will never be known since she is now in her grave.
Al Fayed hosted Diana and her sons not Dodi. He invited Dodi to stop at the Jonikal and he and Diana spent time with the Al Fayed family including Fayed's wife and Dodi's younger siblings.
What Diana saw was known only to her.
The prices of those gifts were never revealed so I don't think any judgments can be made. She never got the Tell Me Yes ring because they did not get to the apartment where Dodi was keeping it. Diana gave people gifts as well. Rosa Monckton should know that Diana gave her and her family gifts. DIana even went shopping for Harry's birthday presents that Summer. Diana committed no crime or faux pas and no receipts are available as to what was paid for those presents.
In fact Dodi was In the news once he was known to be Diana's boyfriend and the first man she was seen dating publicly... and within a very short time the picture was not favourable. At first the public who liked Diana were pleased to see her dating someone and having fun but it ssoon emerged what Dodi was like - and basically it wasn't a good picture.
He was an ilder, supposed to be a producer but not doing anything much, He had been to Sandhurst and left, he dated pretty girls, but had a failed marriage.. He had no job, but even though he had a trust fund, he usually left bills unpaid.. Then it was known that he had a girlfriend who had believed they were getting married and had ditched her to court Diana. So all in all there was plenty about Doidi and little of it good. As for MAF, he was very unpopular and many crticiised Diana for taking his hospitality as well as dating his son.
we know that Dodi boasted to Diana of all the expensive gifts he was giving her, and she told Rosa it made her uncomfotrable...Because she did not want material things..but she accepted them.. The price of the ring was public.. as it was a ring sold in a shop, so the price was quite easy to find out.. and it was an expensive "pre engagement" ring.. So if Diana was talking about taking a ring from him, but "putting it on her right hand" she was giving very mixed signals.. if she did not want to marry him.
Quote from: amabel on January 03, 2020, 04:14:06 PM
I don't know of any reports of him working while Diana was on hols with him. In fact people said that the reason she seemed happy with him, was that he had no job and was free to entertain and amuse her all day for a while..
He was a typical "not very bright" son of a rich man. He didn't have his father's drive and ambition... He dabbled In things, didn't stick to anything and MAF was trying to find something he could do to occupy himself...HE had been sent to learn the Film business in Hollywood, but had not turned up half the time and on his time on Chariots of Fire, Putnam had kicked him off the set. Not exactly a sign of a devoted worker or someone anxious to learn the business. But it was his official "occupation"..
Diana may have liked Dodi at first - he was a bit of a lost soul, but I think within a short time she was a little bored with him and just stayed in the relationship because it was summer time... she was pleased to have someone to take her and the boys on holiday and have a bit of fun.. but she could see Dodi wasn't serious husband material and that he was domnated by his father...
All the same, to take expensive gifts did not look good, esp when she was teling Rosa Monckton that it made her uncomfortable.. T
I read somewhere (don't remember in which book ) that Diana played the piano while he sat at his desk and worked.
The dynamics of the relationship is known only to them. I don't think it was as shallow a as it's made out to be. I read a letter that Diana wrote to him. In it she said she hoped he found some peace of mind, after something he had mentioned. This indicates to me that they confided in each other to a certain extent.
So Diana wasn't in this relationship for shallow reasons, IMO. I think they cared about each other. I don't think that she would have married him however. I don't think it was that 'deep'.
Some people find their calling early in life while others do not. I personally don't think it's a bad thing to try different things if one has the means for it. I don't think that Fayed's film company made films such as chariots of fire and Hook back to back. So this means that he worked with this company for years in whatever capacity.There are many children of wealthy people who do nothing but 'jetset'. At least he tried to do something of himself.
He also had a very domineering father from what i've understood. It's not always easy to develop confidence when influenced like that. I agree on that.
Also, Diana was probably propositioned by many when it came to where to have a vacation. The fact is that she chose to go with old family friends which I think says something positive about her.
Fayed certainly did not gift her things that she herself could not afford. His recounting of the gifts leads me to believe that Diana showed a disinterest in the 'materialistic' and he picked up on it. However, she continued seeing him which leads me to believe that she had a word with him about this.
Personally, I don't think that Fayed was 'all that'. And I don't buy that he was this 'dim' character. But it's interesting to me that he's the only one mainly that's been so thoroughly 'scrutinized' and criticized.
I don't know where these stories emerged of Dodi working while Diana played the piano. they only knew each other few weeks and mostly they were away on holday, on yachts..and people who knew or observed them felt that the reason Diana had become fond of him intitally was that he was not occupied iwht anything else unlike her husband or Hasnat Khan who were busy men.. and so he had time to have fun with her and take her on fun holidays. Given that he'd been wheeled out to amuse her and court her is it likely he was going to spend his valuable courting time, when he should have been pitching woo at her, dabbling in a job that didn't interest him very much at the best of times.
He didn't work.. He liked movies and MAF clearly hoping to get him interested in something, put money in movies and set up a production company and Dodi worked briefly with some senior producers to learn the business. But he didn't put in much effort. He soon lost interest but it was soemthng he could call his "occupation"...He hung aruodn the set of Chariots of Fire.. which he was a producer on but shared drugs with the cast and was then kicked off the set.. He clearly wasn't up to sticking to any job.. and while Diana had been bothered by the fact that Khan and Charles had both had busy workig lives, I think she would have become fed up with a man whose life was pretty much all holidays...(at least I hope so). She spoke to staff in a way which indicated a bit of irritation at the way that Dodi made a fuss bout little things..and she repeatedly told friends that it was just a summer romance.. so I don't think ti was "deep".
Dodi may have attracted her briefly, and he was able to give her time and a luxurious set of holidays but his lifestyle was disorganised and not very interesting when he did so little...So once she got to know him, the initial attraction did not last that long.. but she had made a public thing of romancing him.. and she could not drop him TOO quickly..
She probably hung on till the end of summer and was in fact keen to get back to her sons at the August weekend.. but wasn't able to get a flight at the time.. so I think she was winding down the affair. I don't know what letters she wrote to him.. where did you read this? Why would a letter be made public (Unless MAF wanted to make it public).
As for her holiday with the Fayeds, it wasn't a good move. It attracted a lot of criticism because MAF was seen as a man of "bad character" a ruthless and dishonest businessman. Diana had intended to take a holiday with an American friend Lana Marks I believe but her friends father died and she had to cancel so Di was at a loose end and decided to accept an invitation to holiday with AL Fayed.. and it certainly aroused some bad press for her in England...
Diana and Fayed known each other for years. There are pictures of them being seen together in the 80's.
They weren't mostly away on holiday. There are pictures of Diana visiting Fayed in his London home, visiting the Fayed family in England, going out with Fayed in London.
We don't have his day to day schedule. We don't know how much or little he worked. He could have taken a vacation during the summer. Even prince Charles takes holidays. The RF works hard during the year then takes six weeks of to be in Scotland. Why shouldn't Fayed?
Diana herself worked very hard and she respected both Khan's and Prince Charles' schedules.
Fayed's production company was set up by his father for him. And it was up and running for years. So he did have something to do. Obviously he did not do everything. There was an author, don't remember his name, who had met Diana and Fayed separately and who said that Fayed courted him for work.
There is video footage/pictures of Diana being close to Fayed the same night they both died. Regardless of her irritiations, she seemed like a patient person. I don't think that she planned on marrying him, but I do think she had enough fun to want to continue date him for a while anyways. There are letters from Diana thanking Fayed for giving her a wonderful time and for 'bringing joy into her life'. I think that since those were Diana's own words, they account for more than the speculation. In my opinion.
Diana's letters:
Diana letters to Fayed - Google Search (https://www.google.se/search?q=Diana+letters+to+Fayed&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqyPPk2unmAhXi-yoKHS8uCg8Q_AUoAXoECAsQAw&biw=1366&bih=654)
The press criticizes everything and everyone. It's darned if you do, darned if you don't.
What was odd about being publicly courted? Being seen/public with someone you're dating is normal and usually how it goes.
It was the first romance that Diana had engaged in publicly.. though she had then been divorced for a year.. so it seemed significant. at first the papers were pleased.
They were dleigted that they got photos and it seemed like Diana had finally found herself a single man who was in love with her. Before Long, the press found out more about Dodi and he did not cut a very fine figure..
I assume that these letters were publicised by MAF to make out that the relationship between his son and Dianna was the romance of the century, even though It was only a few weeks long and that he made sure the press knew of her seeing Dodi in London. If he was on holiday with Diana, whether away or in London, he was in holiday mode and harldy likely to be working, was he?
Di liked to write letters and sicne the relationship was a fairly short one, only about 5 or 6 weeks from start to finish, she was at first in "warm and affectionate" mode...there wasn't that much time to get into a real life, ordinary living relationship where you adjust to your partner's normal ways and you are not both on your best behaiviour.. The more difficult time when you have to learn to live iwht each other's faults and bad days. But even so, I think by the end of August Diana was starting to get a bit twitchy, starting to get a bit irritated with Dodi making a fuss over things, and probably about his messy disorganised way of life.. where he was always changing arrangements and annoying his bodyguards.
She was telling her friends that the romance was just a summer one and that it would not end in marriage. Several people she knew said that she had said this to them.. so even if she was lovey dovey with Dodi for a few weeks, she did not seem to be considering him as more than a pleasant diversion...
The production company managed to do its work without Dodi's input...He probably did talk occasionally to writers or film people about "ideas" - and if the company thoguth they were worth running with, they would be the ones doing the hard graft It certainly would not be Dodi who did not stick around long enough to learn much about the business...
And she didn't respect her men's work lives. She was upset to find that Charles was such a hard worker and that he did not have as much time to spend with her as she had hoped.. She was the saem with James Hewitt, breaking up with him when he insisted on going to Germany for the sake of his army career, rather than staying in England with her. She wasn't too happy with Hasnat Khan's being such a workaholic either.. she hoped he could cut back on his hard work and accompany her on her charity wrok if they married.
.
All in all she was not betrothed or obligated to be with Dodi the rest of her life.
It was not hyped the romance of the century in anything I read. AL Fayed perhaps thought it was.
CHarles work schedule was not the problem it was Mrs Parker Bowles that bothered her. Diana liked working and making appearances some with CHarles.
Hewitt was no good anyway, he sold her out. He was no loss as far as I'm concerned. The breakup might have been because some of the not so nice behavior of Hewitt came out.
She was not happy with Khan's not wanting to commit to her. She indicated this very clearly.
A relationship takes two people.
Dodi's and Diana's relationship was known only to them. Dating does not mean obligation to get married.
Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 12:44:07 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 10:22:41 AM
Diana and Fayed known each other for years. There are pictures of them being seen together in the 80's.
They weren't mostly away on holiday. There are pictures of Diana visiting Fayed in his London home, visiting the Fayed family in England, going out with Fayed in London.
We don't have his day to day schedule. We don't know how much or little he worked. He could have taken a vacation during the summer. Even prince Charles takes holidays. The RF works hard during the year then takes six weeks of to be in Scotland. Why shouldn't Fayed?
Diana herself worked very hard and she respected both Khan's and Prince Charles' schedules.
Fayed's production company was set up by his father for him. And it was up and running for years. So he did have something to do. Obviously he did not do everything. There was an author, don't remember his name, who had met Diana and Fayed separately and who said that Fayed courted him for work.
There is video footage/pictures of Diana being close to Fayed the same night they both died. Regardless of her irritiations, she seemed like a patient person. I don't think that she planned on marrying him, but I do think she had enough fun to want to continue date him for a while anyways. There are letters from Diana thanking Fayed for giving her a wonderful time and for 'bringing joy into her life'. I think that since those were Diana's own words, they account for more than the speculation. In my opinion.
Diana's letters:
Diana letters to Fayed - Google Search (https://www.google.se/search?q=Diana+letters+to+Fayed&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiqyPPk2unmAhXi-yoKHS8uCg8Q_AUoAXoECAsQAw&biw=1366&bih=654)
The press criticizes everything and everyone. It's darned if you do, darned if you don't.
What was odd about being publicly courted? Being seen/public with someone you're dating is normal and usually how it goes.
NOthing wrong at all with being publicly courted.
Sandy M Al Fayed DID as you know spend an awful lto of time and money hyping up the relationship with Diana and alos literaly spent millions claiming that her death was due to some conspiracy. He has released her letters.. and tried his best to make it sound like the 2 of them were madly in love, that they were on the verge of becoming engaged, that they were going to live in the Windsor villa and that she was pregnant. This is all pretty well known.
But what Diana said to her friends was very different. There may have been a brief period of attraction but it is pretty clear to me anyway that even if she wrote a few gushy letters it didn't mean she was in love or even planning on dating him for very long. So it was foolish of her to make the romance so public. It meant the press and public were aware of Dodi and his faults and soon she was getting criticism for her association with MAF and with his son who was not exactly Mr True Romance.
She had been very cagy about her previous romances, and kept them secret, but this one was the one she was making known to the press and public, teasing them about "you will be surprised by the next thing that I do".. which made it sound like she was about to marry Dodi.. so if she wasn't going to marry him, why make THIS romance with a rather inadequate man, the first big public one?
and as you know the intital break up with J Hewitt was over his wanting to go and do some triainng for his army career and her wanting him to stay home..
Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 10:41:01 AM
It was the first romance that Diana had engaged in publicly.. though she had then been divorced for a year.. so it seemed significant. at first the papers were pleased.
They were dleigted that they got photos and it seemed like Diana had finally found herself a single man who was in love with her. Before Long, the press found out more about Dodi and he did not cut a very fine figure..
I assume that these letters were publicised by MAF to make out that the relationship between his son and Dianna was the romance of the century, even though It was only a few weeks long and that he made sure the press knew of her seeing Dodi in London. If he was on holiday with Diana, whether away or in London, he was in holiday mode and harldy likely to be working, was he?
Di liked to write letters and sicne the relationship was a fairly short one, only about 5 or 6 weeks from start to finish, she was at first in "warm and affectionate" mode...there wasn't that much time to get into a real life, ordinary living relationship where you adjust to your partner's normal ways and you are not both on your best behaiviour.. The more difficult time when you have to learn to live iwht each other's faults and bad days. But even so, I think by the end of August Diana was starting to get a bit twitchy, starting to get a bit irritated with Dodi making a fuss over things, and probably about his messy disorganised way of life.. where he was always changing arrangements and annoying his bodyguards.
She was telling her friends that the romance was just a summer one and that it would not end in marriage. Several people she knew said that she had said this to them.. so even if she was lovey dovey with Dodi for a few weeks, she did not seem to be considering him as more than a pleasant diversion...
The production company managed to do its work without Dodi's input...He probably did talk occasionally to writers or film people about "ideas" - and if the company thoguth they were worth running with, they would be the ones doing the hard graft It certainly would not be Dodi who did not stick around long enough to learn much about the business...
And she didn't respect her men's work lives. She was upset to find that Charles was such a hard worker and that he did not have as much time to spend with her as she had hoped.. She was the saem with James Hewitt, breaking up with him when he insisted on going to Germany for the sake of his army career, rather than staying in England with her. She wasn't too happy with Hasnat Khan's being such a workaholic either.. she hoped he could cut back on his hard work and accompany her on her charity wrok if they married.
.
Regardless of who released those letter, it does not change the content of the letters. Diana's words are very clear. She was fond of and happy to be with Fayed.
I think she indicated to her friends that it was lighthearted and fun. There was no time limit on the relationship even though she would not have married Fayed IMO.
Everyone has a role in a company. Some work with the administration, some with executive work, some with promotion and so on. And everyone is needed.
Diana did not mind prince Charles being a hard worker I think she minded that when he did have some free time he did not spend much of it with her. That is what she objected to IMO.
James Hewitt did not tell Diana of his plans to go to germany. He waited until the last minute and then told her. If he was in a relationship with her why did he not tell this before?
Besides, I think Diana left him and cut all contact because, to me anyways, he seems like a thoroughly unpleasant and vindictive character. I think that Diana did not find him so charming later on. No loss there, IMO.
Diana knew, without a question, that doctors in general were very busy. IMO. So she knew this was the case with Khan also. But doctors, however busy, do still have free time every now and then. No one works 24/7. And certainly Khan did not mind taking time off to meet Diana.
You can not call it relationship if the fundamentals are not there. From my understanding, Khan did not want to be seen 'offically' with her, but only see her 'in private'. Indefinetly, or until or if he came around to otherwise. This, to me anyways, is quite an absurd standpoint. Especially if you think of the implications. And Diana decided to move on. I personally can't blame her.
DIana and Dodi had down time away from public and cameras. Only they know what went on and they are not around to say. SHe certainly would talk to Dodi differently from her friends. There are private moments with couples that only they know about. I don't know that interpretations can be made about what she wrote to her friends. She was not dating him that long so it's not like she kept a book of diaries and letters chronicling.
Diana was a divorcee now, for a year, she was not going to go about public relationships before that.
It did not make it sound like she would marry Dodi. This was still early on anyway. I think she was just teasing the press. The statement to the press was not that she would marry Dodi. I don't get why it "must" be interpreted that way.
She had to start somewhere. She happened to be dating DOdi publicly after she was divorced. She was seeing Hasnet before this.
I think the initial breakup was because she had reservations about him and their relationship. She took up with him again in 1991 that did not last (they were no longer intimate after 1991). She did not keep him in her circle of friends until 1995 and he rushed to sell her out. I think some of his less charming qualities came out basically. Why must she be blamed. From what I saw of how Hewitt operated after she died, she was right to break up with him. I think it was a lot more than the army career that tore them apart. When he was back it did not last long and they had tried again.
well we do have a lilte access since MAF charmingly made her leters public.. and she seems to have talked to him in a gushy style.. that indicates at least a brief attraction... or perhaps she spoke to most lovers and friends in a rather gushy style.. I thik she did.
But what she said to friends does not indicacate someone madly in love. Even if in the first few weeks she was really attraceted to him and the manner of her letters signalled some genuine affection.. She clearly didn't retain that feeling for very long. They were only together for a few weeks..and if in that short time she was moving from "Oh he's great and I love being with him " to "Its not going to end in marriage, I am not in this for the long run its just a summer romance".. it didn't look like TRUE LOVE to me.
But the statement to the press could harldy indicate anything else but an engagement. She knew they were hanging around watching her romance wth Dodi.. she was making a big show of it.. So what else could the "you'll be surprised with what I do next" mean except "Im going to marry him or move in with him."
As for Hewitt, she hardly had reservations about him.. when the intital break up was over his wanting to go to Germany and her wanting him to stay. Why would she want to pull strings to get him to be kept at home, if she didn't want to be with him???
I personally don't think the letters are 'gushy'.
I think that they were written in a 'light' tone and she seemed happy and thankful for the experience.
I don't think Fayed was the love of Diana's life, but I do think she was fond of him, and I don't think that she had a specific date on which to end things.
Perhaps many of her friends were quite inquisitive and she gave them a truthful response in that it was lighthearted and fun. But I don't think that Diana told them a date on which she would end things.
The press had been bothering her the entire time and perhaps this was her way of being sarcastic and pulling their leg.
Diana was not pleased about Hewitt telling her so late about his going to Germany. She perhaps inquired about it but respected his wishes.
She perhaps still had feelings but decided it was better to move on. He seems like a sly, manipulative figure IMO. If she had kept him in her life, I think she would have regretted it.
It seems to me very odd to say that she didn't intend to marry him and that it was "just a summer romance" unless that was how she relaly felt. I think the tone of the letters was gushy but that was her style and it dd not necessarily indicate that she was madly taken with him in those first few weeks.. but a lot of relationships start with "Its all great fun and I love being with him and can't get enough of him"... and then there comes the real hard work of a relationship, the times when one gets bored, when "it is not all wildly exciting any more or you notice that he has faults". Diana seems to have reached that stage within a few weeks and her attitude was to say to people "look this isn't a mad love affair or something deep and meaningful..., its just a bit of fun and I don't see it lasting".. But having made the romance so public, she could hardly drop him like a hot potato..she probably would have wound it down after the summer.
As for James Hewitt, my understanding was that he wanted to go to Germany, she did not want him to go and wanted to pull strings to keep him and he did not want that and insisted on going and Diana dropped him. She could hardly do other than "respect his wishes" since he was determined to go..
and she did bring him back into her life, at a later stage but he started to drop hints about their affair to the press? so yes it was a bad mistake but her intital break up with him was because she was annoyed thtat he put his career over her.
But summer romance still doesn't mean a time limit. I don't think she set a specific date for it to end. She was probably enjoying the summer and the romance and perhaps would later think about where she wanted it to go.
Personally, I don't think that Diana would carry on that much longer with Fayed. I could be wrong, but I think she would have ended it after a couple of months, maximum. But that doesn't mean that she would stop all comunication sept. 1.
Diana knew that relationships needed efforts, I don't think that this was news to as her, as she was the one making the most effort in her relationships. IMO.
I don't think Diana got to the stage of being completely fed up and over Fayed, as evidenced by photos where they engaging each other in an affectionate way.
That was Hewitt's version. She was probably shocked that he would go to another country for a longer period of time, in preparation of war, and did not tell her before hand. They probably discussed it afterwards but we'll never know Diana's side.
Diana's not here to tell us why she broke up with him at first. I think it was because she found that he wasn't worth it. Then he went to war and came back and she thought she'd give it another chance. She probably realized that he still wasn't worth it.
We don't know what Diana objected to or what behaviour he exhibited. Whatever Diana saw must have made her think it was worth 'icing' him out inspite of the risk of him spilling the beans. But this is just my opinion.
I've seen an interview or two with him and when he speaks about Diana, there is no emotion there. I don't think he's a 'normal' character. There's something about him that's chilling to me. But again, this is just my personal opinion and interpretation of the situation and his character.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 07:05:20 PM
But summer romance still doesn't mean a time limit. I don't think she set a specific date for it to end. She was probably enjoying the summer and the romance and perhaps would later think about where she wanted it to go.
Personally, I don't think that Diana would carry on that much longer with Fayed. I could be wrong, but I think she would have ended it after a couple of months, maximum. But that doesn't mean that she would stop all comunication sept. 1.
Diana knew that relationships needed efforts, I don't think that this was news to as her, as she was the one making the most effort in her relationships. IMO.
I don't think Diana got to the stage of being completely fed up and over Fayed, as evidenced by photos where they engaging each other in an affectionate way.
That was Hewitt's version. She was probably shocked that he would go to another country for a longer period of time, in preparation of war, and did not tell her before hand. They probably discussed it afterwards but we'll never know Diana's side.
Diana's not here to tell us why she broke up with him at first. I think it was because she found that he wasn't worth it. Then he went to war and came back and she thought she'd give it another chance. She probably realized that he still wasn't worth it.
We don't know what Diana objected to or what behaviour he exhibited. Whatever Diana saw must have made her think it was worth 'icing' him out inspite of the risk of him spilling the beans. But this is just my opinion.
I've seen an interview or two with him and when he speaks about Diana, there is no emotion there. I don't think he's a 'normal' character. There's something about him that's chilling to me. But again, this is just my personal opinion and interpretation of the situation and his character.
Diana would have problably moved on from Dodi once she had another admirer.. but its a great pity she did not get fed up with him a bit sooner.. and I think that from what she said, she might have been affectionate enough to his face but she was getting cooler. She wanted to go home to the boys, and had she been able to get a flight she might have left a bit sooner..
As for Hewitt, why would she be shocked that he wanted to do training for his career??? He was a soldier and postings or training aboard and preparation for war if necessary was part of his life. Why would that be surprising to her?? What surprised her clearly was that he wanted to do his foreign posting, because he needed to do it to progress in his career and he prioritised that over being close to her. another instance of her being unhappy when her men chose to devote themselves to tehir careers rather than to her, and at least she was unlikely to have that problem with Dodi...
Diana was not shocked that Hewitt wanted to train abroad for his career. She was shocked that he had not informed her sooner. Which is completely reasonable, IMO.
Fayed also worked. Diana worked hard during the summer. She prepared for her land mines cause and went abroad for it. So she herself did not have the time to completely do nothing but holiday during the summer. She also wasn't with Fayed all of the time out of choice because she had to work.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 08:11:20 PM
Diana was not shocked that Hewitt wanted to train abroad for his career. She was shocked that he had not informed her sooner. Which is completely reasonable, IMO.
Fayed also worked. Diana worked hard during the summer. She prepared for her land mines cause and went abroad for it. So she herself did not have the time to completely do nothing but holiday during the summer. She also wasn't with Fayed all of the time out of choice because she had to work.
She didn't "have to work". She did some appearances for the Red Cross, for their Landmines cause.. but she had about 3 holidays with Dodi and Rosa MOnckton.
If J Hewitt didn't tell Diana till the last minute, how come she wanted to pull strings to stop him going abroad? She could not do that if she only found out when he had his bags packed. What annoyed her was that he wanted to do, and she did not want him to go. She knew that as a soldier he was under orders and would probably have foreign postings..and I find it hard to believe that she didn't know if his regiment was ordered abroad...
The land mines cause was not a simple cause. There had to be preparations and meetings about the issue itself but also how to go about it. On top of that she had other charities and also she was focused on the aids issue. She could also have been preparing to take on new issues for the fall.
I did not say that he told her last minute, such as when he was going to board the plane. Hewitt did not tell her sooner. He probably mentioned it to her weeks before when everything was a 'done' deal.
We only have Hewitt's account of it. Diana perhaps mentioned she could do something but retracted when he did not want to. And supported him also.
She didn't support him.. when she wanted him to avoid the posting, and he said no... she broke off the relationship. they got together again when he went to serve in the Gulf war.
According to what Diana said to Richard Kay she was stepping down from the Landmines/Red Cross, and possibly doing some charity work as a private individual, (as has been said she said that MAF was going to support a Foundation_). She did one trip to Bosnia, I think for the Red Cross during her last few weeks.. but it was summer time and AFAIK she wasn't doing any other charity work. She was on holiday twice or 3 times with the Fayeds/Dodi, and once with Rosa Monckton...
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 07:05:20 PM
But summer romance still doesn't mean a time limit. I don't think she set a specific date for it to end. She was probably enjoying the summer and the romance and perhaps would later think about where she wanted it to go.
Personally, I don't think that Diana would carry on that much longer with Fayed. I could be wrong, but I think she would have ended it after a couple of months, maximum. But that doesn't mean that she would stop all comunication sept. 1.
Diana knew that relationships needed efforts, I don't think that this was news to as her, as she was the one making the most effort in her relationships. IMO.
I don't think Diana got to the stage of being completely fed up and over Fayed, as evidenced by photos where they engaging each other in an affectionate way.
That was Hewitt's version. She was probably shocked that he would go to another country for a longer period of time, in preparation of war, and did not tell her before hand. They probably discussed it afterwards but we'll never know Diana's side.
Diana's not here to tell us why she broke up with him at first. I think it was because she found that he wasn't worth it. Then he went to war and came back and she thought she'd give it another chance. She probably realized that he still wasn't worth it.
We don't know what Diana objected to or what behaviour he exhibited. Whatever Diana saw must have made her think it was worth 'icing' him out inspite of the risk of him spilling the beans. But this is just my opinion.
I've seen an interview or two with him and when he speaks about Diana, there is no emotion there. I don't think he's a 'normal' character. There's something about him that's chilling to me. But again, this is just my personal opinion and interpretation of the situation and his character.
Hewitt never married and I don't think he ever will. He was seen with a much younger girlfriend. He was engaged once but he got the fiancee involved in trying to sell DIana's letters to him for a tidy sum. Nobody purchased them. Diana must have seen the less than "charming" side of the man. Plus it was not possible for her to marry him even if she wanted to (I don't think she did) since she was married and she might have risked having limited access to her children should she have "bolted."
Diana tried again with HEwitt in 1991 but I think the less than nice qualities about him showed and she dropped him. She was proven right because he made money from her blabbing to Pasternack and probably got a nice paycheck for it. Diana was well rid of him.
Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 11:13:38 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 04, 2020, 08:28:11 PM
The land mines cause was not a simple cause. There had to be preparations and meetings about the issue itself but also how to go about it. On top of that she had other charities and also she was focused on the aids issue. She could also have been preparing to take on new issues for the fall.
I did not say that he told her last minute, such as when he was going to board the plane. Hewitt did not tell her sooner. He probably mentioned it to her weeks before when everything was a 'done' deal.
We only have Hewitt's account of it. Diana perhaps mentioned she could do something but retracted when he did not want to. And supported him also.
DIana's comment was succinct. In the Bashir interview she said she was "very let down."
Double post auto-merged: January 04, 2020, 11:15:58 PM
Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 08:01:06 PM
Diana would have problably moved on from Dodi once she had another admirer.. but its a great pity she did not get fed up with him a bit sooner.. and I think that from what she said, she might have been affectionate enough to his face but she was getting cooler. She wanted to go home to the boys, and had she been able to get a flight she might have left a bit sooner..
As for Hewitt, why would she be shocked that he wanted to do training for his career??? He was a soldier and postings or training aboard and preparation for war if necessary was part of his life. Why would that be surprising to her?? What surprised her clearly was that he wanted to do his foreign posting, because he needed to do it to progress in his career and he prioritised that over being close to her. another instance of her being unhappy when her men chose to devote themselves to tehir careers rather than to her, and at least she was unlikely to have that problem with Dodi...
Hewitt was not a sterling character by any means, he lived off wealthy women after Diana broke up with him. He lost all the money he gained.
Diana and Dodi were not together The Entire Summer. She had many projects going on during her last year of existence.
No, Hewitt was far from a worthwhile character but Diana in her own wrods "loved him and adored him". I don't think she loved Dodi, but he too was far from a worthwile character and her letters to him seem affectionate...
Diana said she adored him (not loved) in the Bashir Interview adding she was "very let down."
HOw Diana felt about Dodi went with her to her grave.
Dodi did not make money off DIana by blabbing to a writer and getting a paycheck and trying to sell private letters of the late DIana. Hewitt is the lowest of the low to me. DIana was well rid of him.
No, Dodi only ditched his girlifriend and let his father tell her the bad news.. Asked a man who wasn't qualified to drive, to drive him on their last night and tried to persuade the security guards to not come with them.. He didn't pay his bills, he had had a drug problem.
I think Kelly also got in contact with Fayed and not just MAF.
I mean, his income came from his father, who made sure each and every bill was paid. So with that regard, everyone did get compensated in the end.
I thought Fayed had kicked his drug habit? I doubt he would be doing drugs in front of Diana.
Paul worked for the Fayeds, and as an employee he was asked to drive.
There was a bodyguard who was with them so they were not alone.
Dodi only agreed to have Trevor RJ after arguments and Dodi insisted on using a man who was not a chauffeur, who was not trained to drive the heavy car and who had been drinking. Driving was not part of Henri Paul's job.. Dodi had chauffeurs whom he could have used..and who were experienced drivers... Instead he wouldn't have a back up car, he would only allow one of his security men to come with tehm.. and he Had a driver who took off far too fast and lost control of the car.
Dodi was a grown man and he didn't seem able to manage his money so that he could pay his bills but had to leave it all to his father? People whom Dodi neglected to pay were not happy to be told that he had moved on and hadn't paid and they ahd to go to his father to get bills settled.
He didn't have the courage to see his fianc?e and tell her that their relationship was over but just kept avoiding her until his father "brutally" told her that the affair was over and that she was not to contact Dodi again...
How do we know that Fayed argued about not taking any bodyguards with him? This is a geniune question from me. I don't think i've heard it before.
He could have thought that the less fuss the better since he did not live that far from the hotel ( if i've understood it correctly).
Perhaps Paul, though not a driver, had been asked to drive for the Fayed's on other occasions? Thus Fayed assigning him this task?
Fayed seemed to have poor money managing skills, I agree. It's a good thing that MAF was there and payed people their money.
But Kelly did speak to Fayed and not just his father. So he did come in contact with her.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 05, 2020, 08:07:34 PM
How do we know that Fayed argued about not taking any bodyguards with him? This is a geniune question from me. I don't think i've heard it before.
He could have thought that the less fuss the better since he did not live that far from the hotel ( if i've understood it correctly).
Perhaps Paul, though not a driver, had been asked to drive for the Fayed's on other occasions? Thus Fayed assigning him this task?
Fayed seemed to have poor money managing skills, I agree. It's a good thing that MAF was there and payed people their money.
But Kelly did speak to Fayed and not just his father. So he did come in contact with her.
it is in the article that (I Think)
@TLLK linked recently. Dodi wanted to have the security men drive decoy cars and leave him and Di without them. HIs father paid for bodyguards... how could it be a good idea to dispense with them? They were there to try and keep him safe but they could not do their job if he kept messing them around.
Dodi should not have asked Paul to drive because Paul was not a qualified driver to drive a heavy car like the one they had...Also Paul was not on duty, he had been asked to come in and he had been drinking because he was not expecting to work.
Dodi was a middle aged man, and coud not manage his money.... hardly admirable.. MAF should not have had to pay his bills and people who gave Dodi services should not have had to wait and submit their bills to MAF.
Dodi clearly did his best to avoid contact with Kelly F because he was too cowardly to speak to her and tell her their engagement was over.. And when she did manage to get hold of him, he weakly bleated that "he had broken up with her"....
@oak_and_cedar -According to this article Henri Paul had never driven anyone in the Al Fayed family before. He was not trained as a chauffeur.
QuoteWhen she died, Diana was travelling from a Fayed hotel to a Fayed apartment. She was in a Fayed car, sitting next to Fayed?s son and heir, Dodi. The driver, Henri Paul, was not a chauffeur.
Beach BBQs with Dodi, rows with bodyguards and that 'engagement ring'... The truth about the last week of Princess Diana's life (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/beach-bbqs-dodi-rows-bodyguards-engagement-ring-truth-last-week/)
Quote
He was the acting head of the H?tel Ritz Paris security who had been recalled from an evening off by the Fayeds ? father and son ? to return Diana and Dodi to the Ars?ne Houssaye apartment ? their luxury accommodation just off the Champs-?lys?es.
In over a decade of Ritz service, Paul had never driven any member of the Fayed family anywhere, ever. Neither Fayed had any reason to believe that Paul had been drinking. Nor did the two Fayed bodyguards, who were responsible for the couple?s safety.
A sad irony of Diana?s last journey was that chauffeurs Philippe Dourneau and Jean-Fran?ois Musa, who had driven the couple to the Ritz for their last meal, had been waiting for them at the front of the hotel.
No qualified French chauffeur has ever been involved in a fatal accident. Dourneau and Musa later made their way to the Alma-tunnel crash site, and were devastated to discover that Paul had been at the wheel.
Yes Dodi initially didn't even want bodyguards to be present.
Quote
Dodi?s ?plan? was to leave the Ritz with Diana by the rear entrance. He had asked staff to whistle up another Mercedes which, he told the bodyguards, would be driven by Henri Paul. Wingfield and Rees-Jones, said Dodi, were not to accompany them.
Their role would be to ?create a diversion? by taking the two limousines from the front of the hotel. Both bodyguards strongly objected to the idea of Diana being allowed to leave the hotel without security. And neither man believed they would be best deployed as decoys.
Dodi countered by saying that his plan had been ?OK?d with MF? ? which meant ?my father?, Mohamed Fayed. All now knew the argument was over. MF called the shots in the Ritz, as he had throughout the couple?s French holiday.
Quote from: amabel on January 04, 2020, 08:39:05 PM
She didn't support him.. when she wanted him to avoid the posting, and he said no... she broke off the relationship. they got together again when he went to serve in the Gulf war.
According to what Diana said to Richard Kay she was stepping down from the Landmines/Red Cross, and possibly doing some charity work as a private individual, (as has been said she said that MAF was going to support a Foundation_). She did one trip to Bosnia, I think for the Red Cross during her last few weeks.. but it was summer time and AFAIK she wasn't doing any other charity work. She was on holiday twice or 3 times with the Fayeds/Dodi, and once with Rosa Monckton...
Diana had a busy year. She also sold her gowns for charity that year.She won an award in the US. She did a lot that and did not even get to live out the year of 1997.
She was supposed to be going on a vacation with a woman friend but she got sick and canceled. So had the friend not gotten sick it would have been one less holiday with Dodi.
What Diana said to Richard Kay is hearsay. She is gone and can't confirm or deny anything. She was very interested in the Anti Landmine Campaign.
Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2020, 11:09:59 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 05, 2020, 03:41:21 PM
I think Kelly also got in contact with Fayed and not just MAF.
I mean, his income came from his father, who made sure each and every bill was paid. So with that regard, everyone did get compensated in the end.
I thought Fayed had kicked his drug habit? I doubt he would be doing drugs in front of Diana.
Paul worked for the Fayeds, and as an employee he was asked to drive.
There was a bodyguard who was with them so they were not alone.
Dodi was not doing drugs when Diana was with him. Certainly she would not have tolerated him being there with the "habit" around her sons and she never did drugs and she had a healthy lifestyle. I think the relationship would have gone nowhere had Dodi been using drugs.
Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2020, 11:11:58 PM
Quote from: amabel on January 05, 2020, 02:03:46 PM
No, Dodi only ditched his girlifriend and let his father tell her the bad news.. Asked a man who wasn't qualified to drive, to drive him on their last night and tried to persuade the security guards to not come with them.. He didn't pay his bills, he had had a drug problem.
DOdi's father told him to ditch the girlfriend. He did call her up and told her they had broken up. SHe testified as to the sequence of events at the inquest. Before, when she contacted AL Fayed he told her not to call and she and his son were over.
Dodi did not have drug problem when he dated Diana. If he had it certainly would have been reported at the Inquest.
Quote from: TLLK on January 05, 2020, 09:59:16 PM
@oak_and_cedar -According to this article Henri Paul had never driven anyone in the Al Fayed family before. He was not trained as a chauffeur.
Beach BBQs with Dodi, rows with bodyguards and that 'engagement ring'... The truth about the last week of Princess Diana's life (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/beach-bbqs-dodi-rows-bodyguards-engagement-ring-truth-last-week/)
Yes Dodi initially didn't even want bodyguards to be present.
@TLLK Thanks for the link.
I think Fayed thought he could divert the press' attention by posting the drivers in the front so they could expect Diana there. It was a short distance relatively to his home so he decided to go the other way.
Since Fayed agreed to Paul it seems like he'd done this before IMO. Paul worked for the Fayed's for 10 years according to this article, and only his former employer, MAF, knows exactly in what capacity he was employed and for what tasks.
Fayed took a chance but in the end he did accept that Jones would accompany them, so he did relent.
Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2020, 11:35:34 PM
Quote from: amabel on January 05, 2020, 08:41:05 PM
it is in the article that (I Think) @TLLK linked recently. Dodi wanted to have the security men drive decoy cars and leave him and Di without them. HIs father paid for bodyguards... how could it be a good idea to dispense with them? They were there to try and keep him safe but they could not do their job if he kept messing them around.
Dodi should not have asked Paul to drive because Paul was not a qualified driver to drive a heavy car like the one they had...Also Paul was not on duty, he had been asked to come in and he had been drinking because he was not expecting to work.
Dodi was a middle aged man, and coud not manage his money.... hardly admirable.. MAF should not have had to pay his bills and people who gave Dodi services should not have had to wait and submit their bills to MAF.
Dodi clearly did his best to avoid contact with Kelly F because he was too cowardly to speak to her and tell her their engagement was over.. And when she did manage to get hold of him, he weakly bleated that "he had broken up with her"....
He did not dispense with them entirely. He accepted that Jones would accompany them so he did listen to their reasoning, IMO.
It was not just Fayed who interacted with Paul. Did the other bodyguards not see then that he had been drinking? They could have raised this with Fayed who did relent and accepted Jones presence it seems, so he was open to suggestion IMO.
Well, I agree that it looked like he couldn't manage his money. However he had the backing of his father who did take care of things. It was perhaps not his most attractive quality but the good thing is that people were compensated.
Fayed did have contact with Fischer. If I remember correctly she said he tried to convince her that they had broken up, and when she reacted, answered back. Not the most gallant of actions but he didn't shy away it seems.
Rees Jones memory will probably never come back. He could have taken the keys from Henri Paul if he felt he was a danger to the passengers. People in bars see someone drunk and take the keys away before they can get into their car.
QuoteSince Fayed agreed to Paul it seems like he'd done this before IMO. Paul worked for the Fayed's for 10 years according to this article, and only his former employer, MAF, knows exactly in what capacity he was employed and for what tasks.
I'm not sure how much of an option that Henri Paul had if he wanted to stay employed. :no:
It appears that the experienced and trained Al Fayed chauffeurs were very upset that Henri Paul had been tasked with driving that night and his intoxicated state and lack of experience were a lethal combination that night. :no:
QuoteThanks for the link.
You're welcome
@oak_and_cedar.
If he had an intoxicated state the burning question is why Rees let his charges into that car. Rees was the guard to ensure safety. And he can't tell what happened he lost his memory.The others are dead.
Because most likely Rees didn't know that Henri Paul had been drinking and like all Al Fayed employees both had been given an order by Dodi and it was supported by MF. I wouldn't be surprised if Rees was concerned that an inexperienced driver had been tasked with driving them away from the hotel that night.
The video of Paul showed him tying his shoes and not toppling over or not weaving or looking unsteady on his feet.
Well that proves that video and hindsight are 20/20. Unfortunately ordering the inexperienced Henri Paul driving was a fatal mistake on Dodi/MF's part IMHO.
Mohammed Al Fayed should not be blamed He made it clear that he wanted Dodi to stay at the Ritz overnight with DIana and begged him to reconsider. It was difficult for Al Fayed to intervene since it was only a phone conversation. Had he known or had the power to predict the future, he might have gotten some intervention (Police?) to stop Dodi. There would have been no need for Henri Paul and the old car if DOdi had listened.
@sandy-Dodi told the bodyguards that his father backed his plan with the decoy cars and having Henri Paul drive. That's why it went through that night despite the body guards' concerns. MF was the one who had the final say throughout the summer.
Quote
Dodi?s ?plan? was to leave the Ritz with Diana by the rear entrance. He had asked staff to whistle up another Mercedes which, he told the bodyguards, would be driven by Henri Paul. Wingfield and Rees-Jones, said Dodi, were not to accompany them.
Their role would be to ?create a diversion? by taking the two limousines from the front of the hotel. Both bodyguards strongly objected to the idea of Diana being allowed to leave the hotel without security. And neither man believed they would be best deployed as decoys.
Dodi countered by saying that his plan had been ?OK?d with MF? ? which meant ?my father?, Mohamed Fayed. All now knew the argument was over. MF called the shots in the Ritz, as he had throughout the couple?s French holiday.
The point is AL Fayed did not want Dodi to leave that hotel so there was no need for the decoy car if they stayed. Al Fayed was not there also. So in effect Al Fayed did not have the final say since Dodi over rode him. And did what he wanted. This is in all the books including Death of a Princess. Had Al Fayed been physically present the outcome IMO would have been entirely different.
MF could not call the shots. If he did, Dodi would have stayed put. that is what MF wanted. Al Fayed could not run things by remote control. Dodi wanted to "show he was boss."
Henri Paul put on a show in front of the hotel by baiting the paparazzi something I think would have horrified Al Fayed.
If MF had really been "in charge" Dodi would not have left the Ritz that night. Dodi was giving orders that night not his father.
:shrug:
@sandy -The Al Fayed bodyguards knew that when Dodi told them that MF approved his plan that night that was the final word on the subject. They wanted to stay employed so they followed the orders. Too bad that Diana chose to turn down the offer of RPO protection.
Dodi told them. Al Fayed did not want them to have any "plan." of leaving the Ritz. He wanted them to stay put. Dodi was calling the shots since his dad was not on the premises to stop him. DOdi was bound and determined to get to his apartment.
It was an accident and not Diana's fault Re: RPOS. One could also say if Charles had been loyal to Diana she would not have been in Paris that night. A lot of what ifs.. And MAF was not on the premises. Dodi just was showing off his "authority."
Al Fayed begged Dodi to stay at the Ritz. It is all in the book Death of a Princess.
@sandy-I never said it was "Diana's fault."
This is what I said in my post
QuoteToo bad that Diana chose to turn down the offer of RPO protection.
That is a statement indicating regret for the situation. In no way did I state or imply that it was her fault.
Dodi's father agreed to his son's plan and as his employees knew..that was the final word.
However it has been noted that Mr. Al Fayed's story has changed several times in order to distance himself from any responsibility.
Beach BBQs with Dodi, rows with bodyguards and that 'engagement ring'... The truth about the last week of Princess Diana's life (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/beach-bbqs-dodi-rows-bodyguards-engagement-ring-truth-last-week/)
QuoteFayed himself has given several different versions of this final conversation with Dodi. Characteristically all his versions omit mention of Henri Paul, or his own responsibility for standing down Dourneau and Musa, the regular Fayed chauffeurs, who were awaiting the couple at the front of the Ritz.
QuoteBefore the 2007 UK inquests, Fayed spent tens of millions of pounds in an apparent attempt to distance his family from any responsibility for Diana?s death.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 03:01:25 AM
QuoteWell-informed legal sources estimate that Fayed spent at least ?50 million on the 2007/2008 London inquests into Diana and Dodi?s deaths. He hired three of the UK?s leading QCs, plus appropriate legal support to represent himself, his hotel and Henri Paul?s parents.
However, Fayed himself was humiliated and ridiculed in the witness box. He scattered accusations of a vast plot to kill the couple encompassing British and French security, police, medical and judicial services as well as the Duke of Edinburgh, Tony Blair, his own bodyguards, even Henri Paul, without being able to produce evidence for any of them.
No one who was not an employee, in his pay or a client, gave support to his claims. Fayed told the inquest that he would accept the jury?s finding. However, he then spent more millions producing a film, Unlawful Killing, about the deaths. (The film was never seen in the UK as Fayed?s own lawyers reportedly advised 87 cuts would have to be made.)
Quote from: TLLK on January 05, 2020, 11:51:09 PM
Because most likely Rees didn't know that Henri Paul had been drinking and like all Al Fayed employees both had been given an order by Dodi and it was supported by MF. I wouldn't be surprised if Rees was concerned that an inexperienced driver had been tasked with driving them away from the hotel that night.
There was notihng he could do about it.. Dodi was insisting on his plan and saynig that his father would back it up.. so there was nothing that the 3 employees, Paul, R Jones or Kez Wingfield could do. Even if they had walked out, Dodi would most likely have insisted on sticking with a version of his own plan...because he was used to getting his own way unless his father over rode him.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 08:39:38 AM
Quote from: sandy on January 05, 2020, 11:52:36 PM
The video of Paul showed him tying his shoes and not toppling over or not weaving or looking unsteady on his feet.
That does not mean that his judgement was not impaired by alcholhol and drugs. He had more than the legal limit in his blood, and he had been taking Prozac as well.. He wasn't used to driving or to that big car and clearly was over excited and acted stupidly....
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 09:00:56 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 05, 2020, 11:34:37 PM
@TLLK
Thanks for the link.
I think Fayed thought he could divert the press' attention by posting the drivers in the front so they could expect Diana there. It was a short distance relatively to his home so he decided to go the other way.
Since Fayed agreed to Paul it seems like he'd done this before IMO. Paul worked for the Fayed's for 10 years according to this article, and only his former employer, MAF, knows exactly in what capacity he was employed and for what tasks.
Fayed took a chance but in the end he did accept that Jones would accompany them, so he did relent.
Double post auto-merged: January 05, 2020, 11:35:34 PM
He did not dispense with them entirely. He accepted that Jones would accompany them so he did listen to their reasoning, IMO.
It was not just Fayed who interacted with Paul. Did the other bodyguards not see then that he had been drinking? They could have raised this with Fayed who did relent and accepted Jones presence it seems, so he was open to suggestion IMO.
Well, I agree that it looked like he couldn't manage his money. However he had the backing of his father who did take care of things. It was perhaps not his most attractive quality but the good thing is that people were compensated.
Fayed did have contact with Fischer. If I remember correctly she said he tried to convince her that they had broken up, and when she reacted, answered back. Not the most gallant of actions but he didn't shy away it seems.
He did shy away. He tried to tell her that he had broken it off with her which he obviously hadn't but had left it to his father to do.. When she managed to get through to him, he didn't have the guts to be honest wit her but tried to tell her that he had broken it off earlier.
Do you really think that its OK that people were kept waiting for their money and had to go to MAF to get paid, when Dodi had his own income and was old enough to see about settling his own bills?
We do know what capacity Henr Paul worked in for MAF. He was the head of security at the RItz, not a driver. He had never been trained as a driver, had not got the licence to drive the heavy car and there were trained experienced chauffeurs whom Dodi could have used but he insisted on using Paul and calling him in on his night off to do the job. Dodi wanted to dispense with the bodyguards who were there for his and Diana's protection.. and only gave in after an argument. He would not give in over using Paul as a driver...
Quote from: TLLK on January 05, 2020, 11:47:13 PM
I'm not sure how much of an option that Henri Paul had if he wanted to stay employed. :no:
It appears that the experienced and trained Al Fayed chauffeurs were very upset that Henri Paul had been tasked with driving that night and his intoxicated state and lack of experience were a lethal combination that night. :no:
You're welcome @oak_and_cedar.
Fayed perhaps wanted to try a diversion since he lived nearby if i'm not mistaken.
What I don't get is this, if someone is intoxicated it is rather easily detectable. Yet there were several in Fayed's team and no one noticed anything? How could this be?
I doubt Fayed, if he saw Paul slurring his speech or looking 'out of it' would let him anywhere near a car.
So how drunk was he then?
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 09:32:38 AM
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 08:37:10 AM
He did shy away. He tried to tell her that he had broken it off with her which he obviously hadn't but had left it to his father to do.. When she managed to get through to him, he didn't have the guts to be honest wit her but tried to tell her that he had broken it off earlier.
Do you really think that its OK that people were kept waiting for their money and had to go to MAF to get paid, when Dodi had his own income and was old enough to see about settling his own bills?
We do know what capacity Henr Paul worked in for MAF. He was the head of security at the RItz, not a driver. He had never been trained as a driver, had not got the licence to drive the heavy car and there were trained experienced chauffeurs whom Dodi could have used but he insisted on using Paul and calling him in on his night off to do the job. Dodi wanted to dispense with the bodyguards who were there for his and Diana's protection.. and only gave in after an argument. He would not give in over using Paul as a driver...
I don't interpret it as shying away, personally. I think he just didn't care enough.
Of course it's not OK for people to be kept waiting for their money. Fayed seemed to be irresponsible with his money. The only good thing is that MAF compensated them.
If he was head of security surely that means that he had knew what was needed in general. I don't that Fayed asked him out of the blue. We don't know what his tasks were every day for the ten years he worked with the Fayed's.
Fayed wanted to create a diversion, IMO. It was a gamble that did not work out.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 06, 2020, 09:28:13 AM
Fayed perhaps wanted to try a diversion since he lived nearby if i'm not mistaken.
What I don't get is this, if someone is intoxicated it is rather easily detectable. Yet there were several in Fayed's team and no one noticed anything? How could this be?
I doubt Fayed, if he saw Paul slurring his speech or looking 'out of it' would let him anywhere near a car.
So how drunk was he then?
He may not have been visibly drunk, and he was smoking cigars which masked the smell of alcohol. however tests showed that he was above the legal limit for drink driving and he had Prozac in his blood which as has been said, is not supposed to be mixed with Alchohol. He was not fit to drive and not trained to drive. he did not have the qualifications to drive that heavy car. There were trained drivers avaiaalbe whom Dodi could have used. But he did not want to. He insisted on the plan he had thought up and told his staff that his father had OK'ed it. Henri Paul was in no way the person who should have done the driving.
And the head of security is not a trained chauffeur. YOu need a special licence to drive a heavy car in France and Paul didn't have that. So he was not considered qualified to drive. His tasks had nothing to do with driving. And yes Dodi DID call him in and ask him to drive out of the blue..Paul was off work and was called in.. so he was not expecting to be asked to work or to do this particular job but if Dodi wanted it and MAF OKe'd it, he had little choice.
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on January 03, 2020, 12:09:16 AM
@oak_and_cedar, I completely agree that Lady Diana should have taken a lot more time getting to know Prince Charles.
@LouisFerdinand I think she did get to know him. It was prince Charles anyway who decided to propose to her after that specific period of dating.
I think the problem was that she was not aware of a situation that was assumed she would be OK with in the end.
If PC had told her that he intended to carry on with Camilla even after marriage she would have said 'thanks, but no thanks'.
She thought she had a normal relationship with PC. She did not know everything, IMO.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 09:38:47 AM
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 09:33:08 AM
He may not have been visibly drunk, and he was smoking cigars which masked the smell of alcohol. however tests showed that he was above the legal limit for drink driving and he had Prozac in his blood which as has been said, is not supposed to be mixed with Alchohol. He was not fit to drive and not trained to drive. he did not have the qualifications to drive that heavy car. There were trained drivers avaiaalbe whom Dodi could have used. But he did not want to. He insisted on the plan he had thought up and told his staff that his father had OK'ed it. Henri Paul was in no way the person who should have done the driving.
Weren't there a mistake first with the blood test, if I remember correctly?
If he took alcohol above the legal limit and also prozac that would have made a visibly effect.
It was a rather short drive to his appartment and Fayed took a gamble.
Why he did not take one of the experience drivers instead we will never know. It was a mistake, I 100 % agree.
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 09:33:08 AM
He may not have been visibly drunk, and he was smoking cigars which masked the smell of alcohol. however tests showed that he was above the legal limit for drink driving and he had Prozac in his blood which as has been said, is not supposed to be mixed with Alchohol. He was not fit to drive and not trained to drive. he did not have the qualifications to drive that heavy car. There were trained drivers avaiaalbe whom Dodi could have used. But he did not want to. He insisted on the plan he had thought up and told his staff that his father had OK'ed it. Henri Paul was in no way the person who should have done the driving.
And the head of security is not a trained chauffeur. YOu need a special licence to drive a heavy car in France and Paul didn't have that. So he was not considered qualified to drive. His tasks had nothing to do with driving. And yes Dodi DID call him in and ask him to drive out of the blue..Paul was off work and was called in.. so he was not expecting to be asked to work or to do this particular job but if Dodi wanted it and MAF OKe'd it, he had little choice.
His father was not present. Dodi could say his father OKed it all he wants. Had his father been there he would not have made the same choices as DOdi. From what I read after the phone call where MAF was telling him not to move from the hotel, they were not in touch after that so MAF did not have a "real time" account about what Dodi was doing.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 01:31:34 PM
Quote from: TLLK on January 06, 2020, 02:54:14 AM
@sandy-I never said it was "Diana's fault."
This is what I said in my post
That is a statement indicating regret for the situation. In no way did I state or imply that it was her fault.
Dodi's father agreed to his son's plan and as his employees knew..that was the final word.
However it has been noted that Mr. Al Fayed's story has changed several times in order to distance himself from any responsibility.
Beach BBQs with Dodi, rows with bodyguards and that 'engagement ring'... The truth about the last week of Princess Diana's life (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/beach-bbqs-dodi-rows-bodyguards-engagement-ring-truth-last-week/)
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 03:01:25 AM
MAF was not there. Dodi took over.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 01:33:29 PM
Quote from: TLLK on January 06, 2020, 02:54:14 AM
@sandy-I never said it was "Diana's fault."
This is what I said in my post
That is a statement indicating regret for the situation. In no way did I state or imply that it was her fault.
Dodi's father agreed to his son's plan and as his employees knew..that was the final word.
However it has been noted that Mr. Al Fayed's story has changed several times in order to distance himself from any responsibility.
Beach BBQs with Dodi, rows with bodyguards and that 'engagement ring'... The truth about the last week of Princess Diana's life (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/beach-bbqs-dodi-rows-bodyguards-engagement-ring-truth-last-week/)
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 03:01:25 AM
In a way, it's assigning Diana some "responsibility." There were reasons for her dropping them, they were CHarles' sympathizers and she did not trust them totally.
Plus since Diana was not obligated to keep them even if she had the RPOs it was not mandatory for her. THe removal of the HRH kept it from being mandatory. Even if she used the RPOs, she would have had the option not to use them and use Dodi's security instead.
If MAF were firm with Dodi Dodi woudl have given in. HIs father paid the bills and gave the orders. Niether of them MAF nor Dodi, Showed up well, Dodi with his stupid plan that he insisted on carrying out, which left an inexpierenced man driving when there were trained and good chauffeurs available.. and his messing his bodyguards around.. and MAF with his sanctioning Dodi's plan.. and not telling him ot stay at the Ritz or use the proper staff who knew their jobs.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 02:01:40 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 06, 2020, 09:35:51 AM
@LouisFerdinand
I think she did get to know him. It was prince Charles anyway who decided to propose to her after that specific period of dating.
I think the problem was that she was not aware of a situation that was assumed she would be OK with in the end.
If PC had told her that he intended to carry on with Camilla even after marriage she would have said 'thanks, but no thanks'.
She thought she had a normal relationship with PC. She did not know everything, IMO.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 09:38:47 AM
Weren't there a mistake first with the blood test, if I remember correctly?
If he took alcohol above the legal limit and also prozac that would have made a visibly effect.
It was a rather short drive to his appartment and Fayed took a gamble.
Why he did not take one of the experience drivers instead we will never know. It was a mistake, I 100 % agree.
yes he "took a gamble" that there was no need to take. he had drivers who were experienced at their job. He had bodygards and he "gambles" in a way that ended 3 lives. It was a pretty catastrophic mistake.. cuased by Dodi's own stupidity and stubbornness.
There was no mistake with the blood test. Paul's family asked for it to be done again and it confirmed the findings. He was over the legal limit. He was taking Prozac. He had no experience driving that car and dd not have a licence to do so, and he took off far too fast and drove too fast.. So he lost control of the car....and we know what happened.
MAF would have stopped him had he been at the Ritz. DOdi made an unfortunate mistake of "taking charge." When his father told him to stay he should have stayed and left with DIana in the morning. Dodi was the one who gave the orders, other than that one phone call MAF was not involved. Dodi was there and gave the orders. MAF was not around to "sanction" plans.
MAF did tell DOdi to stay at the Ritz. This is a fact.
Then why did Dodi not stay? Why didn't MAF who always called the shots, tell him that he had to stay and tell the staff not to facilitate his leaving?
Dodi was stubborn and wanted to take over the direction. He picked the wrong time not to listen to his father.
Quote from: sandy on January 06, 2020, 02:07:49 PM
Dodi was stubborn and wanted to take over the direction. He picked the wrong time not to listen to his father.
So then its Dodi's fault largely? (Albeit MAF changed his story more than once to try and indicate that it wasn't the Ritz organisation or lack of it, that cuased the accident...
MAF did not change any story. He did tell Dodi to stay at the Ritz.
DOdi was the one giving directions there he was calling the shots.
MAF spent years claiming all sorts bout the accident.. blaming everyone from MI5 to Prince Philip. He made up stories about Dian's being pregnant about her giving him a message when she died etc.
He is a fantasisit. He says that he told Dodi to stay..but Dodi said that MAF had signed off on his plan and I think that's more likely. He must have realised that Dodi's plan was not a very smart one..but I think he did agree to it.. Yet why not firmly insist on his using the proper driver or staying at the Ritz?
@oak_and_cedar -Here are the results from the French investigators as to Henri Paul's blood alcohol level. His parents requested a separate test which showed the identical results. Yes I agree that Dodi's plan was to attempt a diversion, but unfortunately he selected the wrong person in Henri Paul who was not a trained professional chauffeur who would have the required level of skills to keep avoid the paparazzi pack.
QuoteIn the French Investigation, Judge Herv? St?phan concluded in his report that Henri Paul hit the pillar without touching the Mercedes? brakes, driving at between 61 and 63mph. (The speed limit is 30mph.) Paul was also drunk.
The French legal driving limit is 0.50 grams of alcohol per litre. Paul?s blood samples showed he had a level of 1.74g/litre. Ritz bills indicated that he had drunk two pastis there, and it is thought that he must have been drinking prior to his return to the hotel.
At Paul?s parents? request, a second set of tests were performed which were videotaped. The results were identical.
So he had at least triple the legal limit of alcohol in his blood that night.
He was driving twice the legal speed limit in the tunnel under the Pont d Alma. (Very narrow tunnel which I've driven through before.) Tests on the vehicle showed that he hadn't touched the brake before crashing in at 60 plus miles per hour.
QuoteIn a way, it's assigning Diana some "responsibility."
@sandy-I am not arguing you about my statement of regret.
I did nt quite realise that he flew intot the tunnel at that sort of speed.. its not surprising that he lost control of the car... It seems to me that he was not only drunk but hyped up and over excited and did not even attempt to slow down when entering the tunnel? I believe that he DID outdistance the papparazzi, but he was not a trained driver and did not take safety into account. It msut have been terrifiying.. with him going way beyond the speed limit and diving into the tunnel...
The timeline from when the Mercedes left the hotel and entered into the tunnel is very short so I agree that his adrenaline levels were hyped up and his lack of chauffeur training were factors along with the alcohol/prescription drugs in the crash.
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 02:53:46 PM
MAF spent years claiming all sorts bout the accident.. blaming everyone from MI5 to Prince Philip. He made up stories about Dian's being pregnant about her giving him a message when she died etc.
He is a fantasisit. He says that he told Dodi to stay..but Dodi said that MAF had signed off on his plan and I think that's more likely. He must have realised that Dodi's plan was not a very smart one..but I think he did agree to it.. Yet why not firmly insist on his using the proper driver or staying at the Ritz?
His talk about Philip really has nothing to do with the fact he was not at the Ritz with Dodi that night. Dodi got power hungry giving orders that night. Al Fayed did not have any "visuals" about what really was going on.
He was promoting a match of Diana and Dodi, he would hardly be reckless and encourage his son's behavior that night.
I would agree with you if Al Fayed had been there. I think Dodi was spinning things so his father did not know the extent of Dodi's recklessness. And the contact was over the phone not in person.
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 05:23:43 PM
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 02:10:14 PM
So then its Dodi's fault largely? (Albeit MAF changed his story more than once to try and indicate that it wasn't the Ritz organisation or lack of it, that cuased the accident...
I think AL Fayed underestimated Dodi's recklessness.
Im sure Dodi told him what he was planning and if MAF didn't realise how stupid that was, well I can't believe that. IMO MAF was happy enough with all the palaver because it was attracting press attention. If Diana and Dodi had quietly stayed at the hotel that night, or left quietly and let the press get one shot of them, there would not have been so much excitement and MAF wanted the excitement..
If he saw how stupid the plan was.. he could easily have ordered Dodi not to do it... Dodi knew his father paid the bills.. if he'd been firmly told not to go, he would have stayed..
Dodi I think was "showing off" and trying to act like a "big shot." He picked the wrong time to do it though.
It was like "home" to AL Fayed because he owned the Ritz. It was not just any hotel.
Dodi probably just dug his heels in and would not listen. His Dad was not around.
If he wanted DIana to see the ring, he could have ordered one of the staff to go fetch it or he could have gone and brought it to the Ritz. He was determined to bring DIana to the apartment.
Quote from: sandy on January 05, 2020, 01:55:51 PM
Diana said she adored him (not loved) in the Bashir Interview adding she was "very let down."
diana said she was in love with hewitt in panorama interview
she said she was "very let down." I doubt she kept "adoring him" after that.
She said:
BASHIR: Another book that was published recently concerned a Mr James Hewitt, in which he claimed to have had a very close relationship with you, from about 1989 I think. What was the nature of your relationship?
DIANA: He was a great friend of mine at a very difficult, yet another difficult time, and he was always there to support me, and I was absolutely devastated when this book appeared, because I trusted him, and because, again, I worried about the reaction on my children.
And, yes, there was factual evidence in the book, but a lot of it was, comes from another world, didn't equate to what happened.
BASHIR: What do you mean?
DIANA: Well, there was a lot of fantasy in that book, and it was very distressing for me that a friend of mine, who I had trusted, made money out of me. I really minded about that.
And he'd rung me up 10 days before it arrived in the bookshops to tell me that there was nothing to worry about, and I believed him, stupidly.
BASHIR: Were you unfaithful?
DIANA: Yes, I adored him. Yes, I was in love with him. But I was very let down.
...
My point is she admitted she had feelings for him
She had is the key phrase. They stopped being lovers after 1991 (they took a break sometime in 1989 to sometime in 1991) from the relationship) and she dropped him from her "set" in 1995. He quickly started seeing Dollar Signs. He apparently did not love her. Diana was right about people "using her" they did after her death (or some did) as well.
Quote from: sandy on January 06, 2020, 06:28:55 PM
Dodi I think was "showing off" and trying to act like a "big shot." He picked the wrong time to do it though.
It was like "home" to AL Fayed because he owned the Ritz. It was not just any hotel.
Dodi probably just dug his heels in and would not listen. His Dad was not around.
If he wanted DIana to see the ring, he could have ordered one of the staff to go fetch it or he could have gone and brought it to the Ritz. He was determined to bring DIana to the apartment.
and AL Fayed could have insisted that Dodi did not carry out his plan, could have ordered his employees not to comply with it. He didn't and he could have.. and Dodi could have been a less idiotic bull headed fool and the accident would not have happened.
I think Al Fayed underestimated his son that day. He usually obeyed without question even allowing his father to tell Kelly Fisher she was no longer wanted by Dodi.
Dodi I think was showing off.
Quote from: sandy on January 06, 2020, 06:41:19 PM
I think Al Fayed underestimated his son that day. He usually obeyed without question even allowing his father to tell Kelly Fisher she was no longer wanted by Dodi.
Dodi I think was showing off.
Dodi was clearly trying to assert himself in front of Diana because he had been unnerved by the paparrazi chasing htem earlier. He thtougt of this clever plan and wanted to show off to her.... but MAF could easily have put his foot down and said no to it..
He was probably playing "rescuer" or something to that effect. Or trying to.
MAF was not at the Ritz. He would have cracked down had he been there. I think DOdi went into Loose Cannon Mode. I do think Al Fayed did not think he would be so foolhardy
Assuming that Dodi told him what he was doing, then he knew what Dodi's plan was, and went along with it. Dodi told the staff that his father was ok with the plan and they knew then that there was no point in further arguments on the issue..because MAF was in charge...
Dodi probably did not tell "all" to his Dad. ANd it was one phone call.
Quote from: sandy on January 06, 2020, 06:53:15 PM
Dodi probably did not tell "all" to his Dad. ANd it was one phone call.
According to what has been said, the staff were not happy with Dodi's plan but he said that his father had Ok'ed it. MAF says he did talk to dodi on the phone.. why would Dodi not tell him what he was doing? He msut have told him that he planned to take Diana in a car and have Henri Paul drive.. if MAF apparnely according to himself said it would be better to stay in the Ritz..a nd then Doidi said according to MAF that they had to pick up their things at his flat. If that was said, surey it was easy for MAF to remind Dodi that there were plenty of Ritz staff who could be sent to pick up their clothes?
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 06:48:11 PM
Assuming that Dodi told him what he was doing, then he knew what Dodi's plan was, and went along with it. Dodi told the staff that his father was ok with the plan and they knew then that there was no point in further arguments on the issue..because MAF was in charge...
And their bodyguards knew that this was typically the case when working for the Al Fayeds.
well it appears that MAF spenet something like ?50M with his idiotic conspiracy theories, because the tragedy happened at the Ritz. It is a thousand pities that Diana did not retain her royal PPOs..
I think Diana should have had the HRH. As I posted earlier on. Even if Diana had the RPOs and used them in the UK, she may have not used them in Paris.
If Diana had the HRH she would have had to have RPOs at all times.
It's a thousand pities the Royals did not ensure DIana had the protection at all times by letting her keep the HRH.
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 07:04:38 PM
well it appears that MAF spenet something like ?50M with his idiotic conspiracy theories, because the tragedy happened at the Ritz. It is a thousand pities that Diana did not retain her royal PPOs..
Yes it is very sad that she chose not to retain them as they were well trained professionals that had kept her and her family safe for many years.
I actually feel very sorry for MAF who was/is a grieving father but sadly the findings in France and in the UK did not support his conspiracy claims.
Quote from: sandy on January 06, 2020, 07:07:09 PM
I think Diana should have had the HRH. As I posted earlier on. Even if Diana had the RPOs and used them in the UK, she may have not used them in Paris.
If Diana had the HRH she would have had to have RPOs at all times.
It's a thousand pities the Royals did not ensure DIana had the protection at all times by letting her keep the HRH.
her having HRH had nothing to do with her having Royal protection officers. She was offered tehm and did not want them.. So she would not have used them either in Paris or in London It was not a wise decision sicne Dodi made his bodyguards' job difficult and almost impossible by his messign around.. and she had trusted herself to his security...
Double post auto-merged: January 06, 2020, 09:16:16 PM
Quote from: TLLK on January 06, 2020, 07:09:07 PM
Yes it is very sad that she chose not to retain them as they were well trained professionals that had kept her and her family safe for many years.
I actually feel very sorry for MAF who was/is a grieving father but sadly the findings in France and in the UK did not support his conspiracy claims.
I used to feel sorry for him.. but honestly when you think how he's lied and lied.. and realise how much Dodi's stupid and bad decisions, backed up by MAF had to do with the tragedy, it is harder to feel a lot of sympathy...
Quoteher having HRH had nothing to do with her having Royal protection officers. She was offered tehm and did not want them.. So she would not have used them either in Paris or in Londo
Yes this was a unique offer made only to Diana as I recall and not to Sarah.
Quote from: TLLK on January 06, 2020, 09:34:44 PM
Yes this was a unique offer made only to Diana as I recall and not to Sarah.
No, that's true. Having RPO's is on a case by case basis, for divorced members of the RF. Sarah wasn't offered them though she did have access to them when she was with her children..which she was until they were a bit older.. So she did have some protection. Diana was offered RPO's but she did not want them and refused to make use of them. As I recall she told someone senior In the Met that she had been walking around Londion without RPO's for some time and she was perfectly safe and did not want to use them.. so it was her decision and had nothing to with her having or not having an HRH. Bea and Eugenie do not have RPOs though they have the style of HRH.
I would say that Diana received the offer of RPOs simply because of her former higher rank in the BRF and status as mother of the heir and spare. Her disinclination to use them was part of her mistrust of officialdom being hand in hand with BP and her belief that a lot of her activities were being reported back to Charles and his staff after the separation by these police officers.
As for RPOs being employed for Sarah's protection, where was it going to end? It all costs huge sums of money and after her separation from Andrew there were constant visits by her to the US in particular.
This protection is gradually being withdrawn from certain royals unless they are on official duties. I suppose Andrew's RPOs are already employed elsewhere as he's no longer a working Royal.
I think Fayed got Diana wrong in some instances. Thinking that she would be impressed with his behaviour.
My personal opinion is that not only did he not keep his father 'in the loop' but that this was the case also with Diana.
Double post auto-merged: January 07, 2020, 05:31:43 AM
Quote from: amabel on January 06, 2020, 01:58:29 PM
yes he "took a gamble" that there was no need to take. he had drivers who were experienced at their job. He had bodygards and he "gambles" in a way that ended 3 lives. It was a pretty catastrophic mistake.. cuased by Dodi's own stupidity and stubbornness.
There was no mistake with the blood test. Paul's family asked for it to be done again and it confirmed the findings. He was over the legal limit. He was taking Prozac. He had no experience driving that car and dd not have a licence to do so, and he took off far too fast and drove too fast.. So he lost control of the car....and we know what happened.
But if as according to the article
@TLLK posted, he was that well over the limit, and also had taken prozac. It would have been noticable to his surroundings. This begs the question then why did they let him drive?
There is no question.. They "let him drive" because Dodi was insisting that he drove. It was not necessarily noticeable - he was a steady drinker and able to drink without its being noticed.. And Dodi was the one who was insisting on using him even though Paul did not have the licence to drive the car, (so would probably not be covered by insurance etc).. Dodi, backed by his father, wanted Paul to do the driving even though there were experienced qualified licenced chauffeurs avaialabe. MAF said as I recall that Dodi told him of his plan to leave the Ritz and he told Dodi not to go but Dodi responded that they had to collect their clothes from his flat. But it would hardly have been a problem for MAF to tell Dodi that it was not a good idea to go when the press were milling around, esp without the appropriate safeguards of 2 bodyguards ad a trained chauffeur and that Dodi could send one of the staff to pakc up their things. He does not seem to have claimed to do so, and if he had insisted to his son that he should not leave the hotel or should at least go with a sensible plan, Dodi would have done so.. because his father paid his bills.
Double post auto-merged: January 07, 2020, 08:24:26 AM
Quote from: Curryong on January 06, 2020, 10:37:03 PM
I would say that Diana received the offer of RPOs simply because of her former higher rank in the BRF and status as mother of the heir and spare. Her disinclination to use them was part of her mistrust of officialdom being hand in hand with BP and her belief that a lot of her activities were being reported back to Charles and his staff after the separation by these police officers.
As for RPOs being employed for Sarah's protection, where was it going to end? It all costs huge sums of money and after her separation from Andrew there were constant visits by her to the US in particular.
This protection is gradually being withdrawn from certain royals unless they are on official duties. I suppose Andrew's RPOs are already employed elsewhere as he's no longer a working Royal.
She was a high profile Ex Royal and was still having a public life with charity work at times. and she was popular wth the public. Sarah was not by the time her marriage ended and there would probably have been grumbling from the public if it were known that she was having bodyguards which are indeed expensive...
Diana had to have the guards wit her when she was with the boys, but she refused to have them at other times. That was her decision and it was not a very sensible one..but it had nothing to do with her hiavng or not having HRH
If his levels were three times the limit and were mixed with Prozac, it would have been noticeable, IMO.
MAF could only do so much over the phone. His son had a bee in his bonnet about proving himself in front of Diana.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 07, 2020, 12:49:30 PM
If his levels were three times the limit and were mixed with Prozac, it would have been noticeable, IMO.
MAF could only do so much over the phone. His son had a bee in his bonnet about proving himself in front of Diana.
No not necessarily. He was accustomed to drinking and many people can drink a lot and be very drunk without showing it. If he went into that tunnel at 60 mph, without even attempting to hit the brakes, he must have been in a very odd state.. either drunk or hyped up and totally failing in displaying good judgement...
If that Is the case that MAF could not have said anything to Dodi that would make him re think his plan, he's not the man I took him for.. but if he didn't try to tell his son not to go ahead with the plan then most of the responsibility for what happened rests on Dodi. He was the one who made those decisions and would not be swayed from them..
He did try and told Dodi to stay put. Dodi I doubt let his father in on his plans minute by minute. It was one phone call.
Quote from: sandy on January 07, 2020, 02:09:27 PM
He did try and told Dodi to stay put. Dodi I doubt let his father in on his plans minute by minute. It was one phone call.
they discussed what Dodi was going to do... and Dodi told his staff that his father had agreed to his plan so they knew there was no point in arguing with him, once MAF had agreed to something...
I still don't think Dodi told him "everything." He said he wanted to go to the Apartment but I don't think he went into details re: old car, decoy and Henri Paul
QuoteBut if as according to the article @TLLK posted, he was that well over the limit, and also had taken prozac. It would have been noticable to his surroundings. This begs the question then why did they let him drive?
My guess is that the paparazzi pack already recognized the Al Fayed chauffeurs and if they saw them behind the wheel of one of their vehicles, then they'd chase that car.
Since Henri Paul was not a licensed chauffeur and not immediately recognizable, Dodi chose him to drive the car. However he didn't take into consideration that Paul was not trained like the other company drivers.
Henri Paul was already off that evening and so I'm not surprised that he was relaxing at the bar. The question I have is did he explain to Dodi that he'd already been drinking and had taken the medication so he wasn't suitable to drive? Or did he assume that two patis were not going to be an issue? Or even worse did Dodi just ignore that Paul had told him he had been drinking and still insisted that he drive?
@sandy-Yes I believe that MAF received an "abridged" version of Dodi's plan. Dodi would have known what to say to get MAF's consent.
But the guards were arguing about the business of their being stood down and not going with Diana (they didn't want this to happen and eventually persuaded Dodi to agree to at least one of them(Rees Jones) accompanying the couple)...and the issue of a different unexpected driver being called in when there were already 2 trained chauffeurs.... and Dodi told his security men that his father had agreed to these 2 changes in the usual way things were done...
I think the issue msut have been discussed, by Dodi with his father. I don't think he was much good at lyng to his father.. but I think that MAF did not push his son to stay safely in the hotel...He did not antticpate of course that Henri Paul would have been dirnking and would behave so crazy, but I think MAF wanted the publicity of the press haniging around the Ritz and watching for Diana and trying to get a picture...
What Dodi told them and what MAF thought he was approving are two different things.
This is in Death of a Princess and other sources, MAF did not want Dodi to leave the Ritz but Dodi would not listen.
Then Dodi bears the lions share of the blame....
I know that when I initially read that Diana and Dodi had bodyguards that summer, I made the assumption that they had the same training, scheduling and resources at the RPOs or American Secret Service. From further reading it appears there is wide gulf between the RPOs and the private bodyguards that the Al Fayed's hired.
From this article from 2008 features the Inquest testimony from the bodyguards that evening and I found it very enlightening. These men were working 18 hours shifts and the communication seemed very poor. It appears that there were frequent last minute changes to their plans.
Security failings plagued Diana bodyguards, inquest told | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/jan/29/monarchy)
QuoteSecurity failings plagued the bodyguards who tried to protect Diana, Princess of Wales, and Dodi Fayed on the night of their fatal car crash, one of the bodyguards told an inquest today.
Kieran Wingfield, who guarded the couple with colleague Trevor Rees (formerly Trevor Rees-Jones), said they were hampered by a lack of staff and co-operation from Mohamed al Fayed's son, who constantly left them in the dark about his plans.
As Diana and Dodi cruised the Mediterranean on a luxury yacht, the bodyguards employed by the Harrods' boss struggled to cope, working 18-hour shifts after their requests for help were turned down.
I think that was Dodi messing them around.. that made it hard for them to cope with the job..
And 2 bodyguards were probably enough to look after Dodi, who was not well known.. but when they had to llok after Diana and had the press on their tail all the time it was a lot more difficult and they did look for extra staff but didn't get any. MAF was not an easy employer and neither was Dodi..
And the RPOs had some autonomy, so they could do their jobs in the way that seemed best to them.. whereas MAF's employees were forced to put up with all of Dodi's whims and risk losing their jobs if they tried to argue with him..
Quotend the RPOs had some autonomy, so they could do their jobs in the way that seemed best to them.. whereas MAF's employees were forced to put up with all of Dodi's whims and risk losing their jobs if they tried to argue with him..
With the Metropolitan police and the government to back them if there were issues with job. IMO the Al Fayed bodyguards had to be more compliant to their employer's wishes.
Yes I think that MAF himself was quite obsessed with security to ensure he was safe..... but with Diana he expected the 2 guys working 18 hour shifts to cope with looking atfer her and Dodi and keeping a mass of photographers at bay..
@amabel-Which IMHO is an overwhelming task for just two bodyguards.
Quote from: amabel on January 07, 2020, 01:54:43 PM
No not necessarily. He was accustomed to drinking and many people can drink a lot and be very drunk without showing it. If he went into that tunnel at 60 mph, without even attempting to hit the brakes, he must have been in a very odd state.. either drunk or hyped up and totally failing in displaying good judgement...
If that Is the case that MAF could not have said anything to Dodi that would make him re think his plan, he's not the man I took him for.. but if he didn't try to tell his son not to go ahead with the plan then most of the responsibility for what happened rests on Dodi. He was the one who made those decisions and would not be swayed from them..
He drank alcohol and mixed it with medicine. That should get one going.
Of course it was not MAF's fault. It was his son's who tried to be a 'bigshot' and impress Diana. I've never bought into the notion that Fayed was this hapless and harmless individual. I think he was just as ruthless and manipulative as his father. IMO.
Both MAF and Fayed, IMO, did not get Diana entirely and tried to impress her with the wrong things. But this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.
^^ The bodyguards charge are the ones who are overwhelming. There is so much IF fillintheblank (from seatbelt to hotel room service), she'd be alive today.
Yes, but I think that Diana got the short end of the stick.
From a malfunctioning seatbelt, to bad medical help (IMO) to a boyfriend who did not fill her in about his plans (in my opinion/suspicion).
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 07, 2020, 07:28:06 PM
He drank alcohol and mixed it with medicine. That should get one going.
Of course it was not MAF's fault. It was his son's who tried to be a 'bigshot' and impress Diana. I've never bought into the notion that Fayed was this hapless and harmless individual. I think he was just as ruthless and manipulative as his father. IMO.
Both MAF and Fayed, IMO, did not get Diana entirely and tried to impress her with the wrong things. But this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.
I would hardly think that Dodi was bright enough to work out the risks of what he was doing, by his plan. It was a stupid plan and it worked out disastrously for him.. and he hardly intended to cause harm to Diana.. he just was idioitc enough to think that his plan was a clever one...
MAF was the one with brains and drive and he should have foreseen that letting Dodi loose with a "clever plan" was foolish.. and he should have put his foot down.
Double post auto-merged: January 07, 2020, 08:53:41 PM
Quote from: TLLK on January 07, 2020, 07:17:53 PM
@amabel-Which IMHO is an overwhelming task for just two bodyguards.
And with Dodi continually messng around with them and leaving them out of the loop.. nearly impossible. MAF shuld have paid up for more guards, and kept the press at bay.. but of course he wanted the publicity of its being known that his son was dating Diana...
Quote from: amabel on January 07, 2020, 08:46:17 PM
I would hardly think that Dodi was bright enough to work out the risks of what he was doing, by his plan. It was a stupid plan and it worked out disastrously for him.. and he hardly intended to cause harm to Diana.. he just was idioitc enough to think that his plan was a clever one...
MAF was the one with brains and drive and he should have foreseen that letting Dodi loose with a "clever plan" was foolish.. and he should have put his foot down.
I don't think he intended to cause harm. Certainly not. I think he was intent on proving himself and achieving his aim in this regard. Thus perhaps he felt it was more 'strong' of him not to 'involve' Diana but show her he could handle things.
You cannot always foresee people's actions. He did not let him loose. His son acted on his own and MAF vehemently disagreed with him. There's only so much you can do when you're just on the phone.
It is also possible during a phone call to hang up. Dodi might have quickly hung up the phone I doubt he gave MAF all the details.
QuoteAnd with Dodi continually messng around with them and leaving them out of the loop.. nearly impossible. MAF shuld have paid up for more guards, and kept the press at bay.. but of course he wanted the publicity of its being known that his son was dating Diana...
Sadly I believe that MAF's desire for British citizenship and the status that he believed it would bring to him is at the heart of his actions that summer. If he could some how link his family to the mother of the future King of the UK, he was probably desperate enough to do anything that might impress Diana. However I don't believe that he ever realized that she wasn't in love with Dodi.
He was still appealing the citizenship ruling two years after the Paris crash.
Fayed fails in citizenship appeal | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fayed-fails-in-citizenship-appeal-738287.html)
Dodi and Diana were really just dating. I don't think they dated long enough for love to happen between them.
Ugh!!! MAF used to monitor Diana on security tape and then "bump" into her when she was shopping at Harrods!! Ugh that is stalking IMHO. Yes store owners/managers do keep an eye out for their top customers, but this takes it to a whole new level.
Al-Fayed's Innocent Victims (https://www.thedailybeast.com/al-fayeds-innocent-victims)
QuoteFew visitors studying the ?engagement ring? will notice a black glass semi-sphere in the ceiling above their heads at the bottom of the escalator. It contains ?security cameras? recording every visitor. Fayed himself liked to monitor Harrods?s visitors?none more so than Princess Diana herself. According to testimony from Fayed?s 1987-1996 head of security, Bob Loftus, his entire security retinue was on red alert for Diana?s Harrods visits. Among hundreds of hours of tapes Loftus recorded were several which revealed how his master?s cameras would monitor Diana's progress around Harrods. Once the Princess was located, Fayed would beetle along & bump into her ?by chance?. Fayed would, of course, be accompanied by his own personal-protection team which was far larger than the skeletal team of two he provided on 31 August 1997 for Diana in Paris.
QuoteThe paparazzi?s pursuit also was found to be a factor at the inquests, but there was only one family responsible for the last journey from Fayed?s Ritz. The couple?s Fayed bodyguards both testified that the plan that killed the princess had been cooked up by Dodi and approved by Mohamed in a telephone conversation minutes before the fatal journey began (?it's been OKed by MF? were the words Dodi used, the inquests were told). When Fayed denied authorizing Dodi?s plan, the DTI?s comments about Fayed?s ?lies were the truth and the truth was a lie? sprang to mind.
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 01:26:12 AM
QuoteIn a decade of service in Ritz security, Paul had never driven Mohamed or Dodi anywhere, ever. How could he ever have been asked to drive the best-known princess in the world? Paul was not a Ritz driver. He had no chauffeur qualification to drive the Mercedes that the Fayeds pressed into service at the back of the Ritz. The chauffeur-driven cars that had brought the couple to the hotel had been surrounded by paparazzi as they awaited the couple?s departure from the front. Hence Dodi?s ?plan? to leave from the rear exit.
There are dark secrets about Fayed that can never be published. They would wreck the lives of genuinely ?innocent victims? for whom anonymity provides some salvation. They would explain why the Egyptian has never been granted a U.K. passport, and might even wipe the smiles off the faces of the Harrods sphinxes. I can reveal that both Labour and Conservative governments in Britain have been aware of them for decades, as have U.S. governments since the Reagan administration.
MAF hired Raine Spencer to work at Harrod's. He hired her because he was friends with John Spencer. I remember seeing MAF on QVC selling Harrods Product and people could order the items over the phone.
I wonder if Raine knew that her employer was more or less stalking her step-daughter. <_< That is vile IMO.
Quote from: TLLK on January 08, 2020, 01:54:39 AM
I wonder if Raine knew that her employer was more or less stalking her step-daughter. <_< That is vile IMO.
Quote from: TLLK on January 08, 2020, 01:17:42 AM
Sadly I believe that MAF's desire for British citizenship and the status that he believed it would bring to him is at the heart of his actions that summer. If he could some how link his family to the mother of the future King of the UK, he was probably desperate enough to do anything that might impress Diana. However I don't believe that he ever realized that she wasn't in love with Dodi.
He was still appealing the citizenship ruling two years after the Paris crash.
Fayed fails in citizenship appeal | The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/fayed-fails-in-citizenship-appeal-738287.html)
I doubt if he cared if seh was in love with Dodi.... if for whatever reason, they married, it woudl be a feather in MAF's cap and even if they split up later, he could alwasy say his son had been married to Diana Princess of Wales and been stepfather to the heir to the throne. He didn't care what her feelings were or Dodi's.. Dodi was to give up his girlfriend.. Diana was to be wooed and photographed as his son's girlfriend.. and he probably hoped that she would be willing to marry Dodi who was the son of a very very rich man who could provide her with lots of expensive holidays, several houses, and great wealth..
Diana was lonely and restless, she wanted or hoped for someone to take care of her and perhaps give her homes outside the UK where she could avoid the British Press but still go back to see her sons...She was at a loose end that summer and MAF jumped in, pushing Dodi forward. MAF wanted the palaver of the press chasing her for a story, and was not willing to provide more bodyguards and safety precuations.
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 08:08:25 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 07, 2020, 09:10:53 PM
I don't think he intended to cause harm. Certainly not. I think he was intent on proving himself and achieving his aim in this regard. Thus perhaps he felt it was more 'strong' of him not to 'involve' Diana but show her he could handle things.
You cannot always foresee people's actions. He did not let him loose. His son acted on his own and MAF vehemently disagreed with him. There's only so much you can do when you're just on the phone.
if MAF had "vehemently" disagreed with him, he would have said "No, don't leave the Ritz tonight" and he could even have ordered staff to ensure that Dodi did not have to go. He could have ordered his staff to go and pack their things and let them set off for the airport in the morning and provide more security for their safety...
Diana did not have to say yes no matter what MAF wanted.
I don't see Diana "at a loose end" . She was not even planning to see Dodi at the end of the Summer before one of her women friends canceled the vacation plans. Diana was on her way to her sons in London.
Dodi probably said he was "in charge" her father underestimated him that night.
Quotedoubt if he cared if seh was in love with Dodi.... if for whatever reason, they married, it woudl be a feather in MAF's cap and even if they split up later, he could alwasy say his son had been married to Diana Princess of Wales and been stepfather to the heir to the throne. He didn't care what her feelings were or Dodi's.. Dodi was to give up his girlfriend.. Diana was to be wooed and photographed as his son's girlfriend.. and he probably hoped that she would be willing to marry Dodi who was the son of a very very rich man who could provide her with lots of expensive holidays, several houses, and great wealth..
Diana was lonely and restless, she wanted or hoped for someone to take care of her and perhaps give her homes outside the UK where she could avoid the British Press but still go back to see her sons...She was at a loose end that summer and MAF jumped in, pushing Dodi forward. MAF wanted the palaver of the press chasing her for a story, and was not willing to provide more bodyguards and safety precuations.
Personally I find MAF repugnant and his self-serving. :goodpost:
@amabel.
Dodi and Diana were just really dating a few weeks. I doubt Diana or Dodi knew each other well enough to exchange I love yous.
MAF could not force Diana to marry his son. Diana was only divorced one year, I doubt she'd have rushed into another marriage so quickly.
Could he "force" Diana to marry his son? No. Could he and would he continue to push Dodi into spending time with Diana? Most likely yes and yes.
He could not even "push" Dodi to spending more time with Diana. He may want to push them together but Diana and/or Dodi may not have been willing.
@sandy-We'll have to agree to disagree on whether or not MAF could "push" Dodi to spend more time with Diana. We do know that he'd ordered his son to break off his engagement to Kelly Fisher in order to spend time with Diana. MAF was supporting his son's lifestyle and held the reins to his inheritance, so I believe that would influence Dodi to spend more time with Diana.
Dodi's ex-fianc?e tells inquest of 'betrayal' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1572509/Dodis-ex-fiancee-tells-inquest-of-betrayal.html)
It was all "exciting and new" to Dodi and Diana on that Summer. They were only involved a few weeks. Reality probably would have set in. I don't think Diana would have wanted to be "rushed" into marriage with Dodi. It is a turn off when a parent gets heavy handed about matchmaking and I think it eventually would have put Diana off. Dodi could have broken engagements, and sent flowers but if Diana felt he was not right for her, nothing would have moved her. Dodi would be told, go see Diana. Diana would then change her phone number. Unless Dodi wanted to go to stalkerville, it would have been Over and Done with.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 03:22:35 PM
He could not even "push" Dodi to spending more time with Diana. He may want to push them together but Diana and/or Dodi may not have been willing.
Dodi had no real choice. He ahd been forced to give up his girlfriend and come to court Diana. And MAF was clearly pressuring him to get Diana into a relationship and a marriage. The expensive gifts, the holidays, the publicity for the relationship.. Dodi was going along with it, coming up with his daft plan to show off to Diana how good he was at "looking after her" and how many staff he had at his command.... and MAF was fien with it all till it went tragically wrong...
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 03:59:42 PM
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 03:45:20 PM
It was all "exciting and new" to Dodi and Diana on that Summer. They were only involved a few weeks. Reality probably would have set in. I don't think Diana would have wanted to be "rushed" into marriage with Dodi. It is a turn off when a parent gets heavy handed about matchmaking and I think it eventually would have put Diana off. Dodi could have broken engagements, and sent flowers but if Diana felt he was not right for her, nothing would have moved her. Dodi would be told, go see Diana. Diana would then change her phone number. Unless Dodi wanted to go to stalkerville, it would have been Over and Done with.
MAF was it seems stalking Diana so I think he would be fine wiwht Pushing Dodi to do the same. And Diana was perhaps getting fed up with him but she was giving him mixed signals... so he would have continued his pursuit for some time...
MAF could have pushed Dodi. But if Diana did not want him he would need to back off. Dodi did have a choice, he did not have to give up his girlfriend/fiancee. I don't think he was all that interested in her in the first place if his father could tell him to break up with her and he complied.
Quote from: TLLK on January 08, 2020, 03:17:07 PM
Could he "force" Diana to marry his son? No. Could he and would he continue to push Dodi into spending time with Diana? Most likely yes and yes.
Of course he could. And Diana was caught up in the whole mess.. so that she could not get out of it. I think she was tired and cross and fed up that last night, I think many women would have been..but she wasn't an ordinary woman who could get mad, wlak off in a huff and get a taxi home. She was tangled up with the FAyeds and their schemes...
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 04:03:10 PM
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 04:00:40 PM
MAF could have pushed Dodi. But if Diana did not want him he would need to back off. Dodi did have a choice, he did not have to give up his girlfriend/fiancee. I don't think he was all that interested in her in the first place if his father could tell him to break up with her and he complied.
He didn't officialy break up with her. He tried to play both of thtem, then MAF told KElly F to leave Dodi alone and he backed off, becauase Dodi DId what his father told him to do. He had no choice if he wanted Dad to go on payig his bills.. which is why if MAF had firmly said that last night, to leave the plan alone and to sty at the Ritz Dodi would have almost certainly gone along with it.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 04:00:40 PM
MAF could have pushed Dodi. But if Diana did not want him he would need to back off. Dodi did have a choice, he did not have to give up his girlfriend/fiancee. I don't think he was all that interested in her in the first place if his father could tell him to break up with her and he complied.
So we agree that MAF could have continued to push Dodi into seeing Diana and we agree that Diana could have said no to any furthering of their relationship beyond the summer of 1997. :thumbsup:
Diana could get out of it. She got out of relationships before. She changed her phone number after she wanted to move on from Hasnet.
Diana had no obligation to marry Dodi. Her mood that night is subject to speculation. She was not eloping, the trip was only to Dodi's apartment. She had the freedom to say no to the proposal if he had intended to propose. Women have come a long way where they are not 'forced' to marry somebody. She was in a fatal auto accident. All she was was going to stay at his apartment. No wedding chapel.
Quote from: TLLK on January 08, 2020, 04:03:34 PM
So we agree that MAF could have continued to push Dodi into seeing Diana and we agree that Diana could have said no to any furthering of their relationship beyond the summer of 1997. :thumbsup:
well she could but she didn't seem to be giving the Fayeds a clear signal that she was getting fed up wit the whole thing and wanted out. Most likely she would not have broken with D till she found a new boyfriend.. and that ngiht, she was tied to their plans and Doddi's messy disorganised lifestyle..
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 04:08:36 PM
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 04:04:20 PM
Diana could get out of it. She got out of relationships before. She changed her phone number after she wanted to move on from Hasnet.
Diana had no obligation to marry Dodi. Her mood that night is subject to speculation. She was not eloping, the trip was only to Dodi's apartment. She had the freedom to say no to the proposal if he had intended to propose. Women have come a long way where they are not 'forced' to marry somebody. She was in a fatal auto accident. All she was was going to stay at his apartment. No wedding chapel.
but she was tied to them. She was stuck with Dodi's bad security system and his stupid plan to hav her driven home by an unlicensed untrained driver.
It was so early in the relationship. I did not see any clear signals.
She was going to London the next morning. So she could not have been tied to them. The accident happened.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 04:04:20 PM
Diana could get out of it. She got out of relationships before. She changed her phone number after she wanted to move on from Hasnet.
Diana had no obligation to marry Dodi. Her mood that night is subject to speculation. She was not eloping, the trip was only to Dodi's apartment. She had the freedom to say no to the proposal if he had intended to propose. Women have come a long way where they are not 'forced' to marry somebody. She was in a fatal auto accident. All she was was going to stay at his apartment. No wedding chapel.
Yes like I said in my earlier post you and I agree that Diana could say no to any further relationship with Dodi. :thumbsup:
Quote from: TLLK on January 08, 2020, 04:24:31 PM
Yes like I said in my earlier post you and I agree that Diana could say no to any further relationship with Dodi. :thumbsup:
She could, but I thnk she wouldn't have ended it till she had another boyfriend.. and that was fatally late
Diana did not necessarily have to have another boyfriend before breaking up with Dodi. She also might have wanted to be single for a while before moving on. It would be rather awkward for her to break up when she was dating Dodi and serious about seeing someone else. If she knew there was no future she would have dropped Dodi. She was only a divorcee for a year when she was dating Dodi.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 06:44:03 PM
Diana did not necessarily have to have another boyfriend before breaking up with Dodi. She also might have wanted to be single for a while before moving on. It would be rather awkward for her to break up when she was dating Dodi and serious about seeing someone else. If she knew there was no future she would have dropped Dodi. She was only a divorcee for a year when she was dating Dodi.
I suspect she would have waited til she was seeing someone else. She was droping hints to her friends that she didn't see the affair with Dodi as going anywhere...and she must have been becoming fed up with him.. yet she was saying things like she might drop the Red cross charity work and start up a foundation with MAF and Dodi...
Diana was not serious to an extent to consider marrying Fayed IMO. I think she was fond of him but I don't think she 'loved' him.
It was a pleasant enough relationship where they got to know each other, and they had good chemistry Perhaps Diana would have dated him for a little while longer but that's it IMO.
I am of the opinion that Fayed dumped Kelly willingly. For all we know he could have been a sly sort only too happy to have the blame put on his father. Which I think is the case IMO.
I don't think that Diana would have dated immediately after ending things with Fayed. I think she would have focused on her work.
Double post auto-merged: January 08, 2020, 07:48:13 PM
Quote from: amabel on January 08, 2020, 08:06:13 AM
if MAF had "vehemently" disagreed with him, he would have said "No, don't leave the Ritz tonight" and he could even have ordered staff to ensure that Dodi did not have to go. He could have ordered his staff to go and pack their things and let them set off for the airport in the morning and provide more security for their safety...
He could very well have said that and his son could still not have obeyed him.
They were only employees and unless physically restraining him which was/is against the law, there was only so much they could do.
His son obeyed him.. He had to or daddy would not pay the bills. MAF could have told the staff to get Dodi's things so that he didn't have to go out of the Ritz.. and to drop the idea of decoy cars and non trained drivers.
And I doubt if Diana would have focused "on her work". She was clearly very ambivalent about her "Royal charity" work in the last year or 2. She took up things and then dropped them.. She was talking about quitting workig with the Red Cross which had gotten her involved in the LANdmines issue which had gotten hr a lot of praise in the last few months.. so you'd thnk she would have wanted to go on with it..But instead she talked of doing some new charity work as a private individual with MAF.. Which of course would have depended on the romance with Dodi lasting... Yet she told people that it wasn't a lasting romance. Very hard to figure out what she was thinking...
That is if his son told him everything.
He could have said 'alright i'll do it' and do the opposite.
We will never know unless we get the transcript of the phone call.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 08, 2020, 08:04:47 PM
That is if his son told him everything.
He could have said 'alright i'll do it' and do the opposite.
We will never know unless we get the transcript of the phone call.
MAF said that he had told Dodi to stay at the Ritz and Dodi had said that they had to go and get their clothes. QUITE easy for MAF to say "there's no need for you to do that, what do you have staff for." but he does not appear to have claimed to say that.
Perhaps he did?
You cannot controll someone that easily over the phone.
I think Fayed thought he had the situation under control.
MAF was trying to tell the world that he had no responsibility for what went wrong.. so if he was doing that, you would think that he would be shouting to the world that he had TOLD Dodi to stay in the Ritz and had made arrangemnets so that DIana and Dodi didn't have to go out.. but as Far as I know he didn't.. He seems to have indicated that he accepted that they had to go and get their thigns.. which was manifestly silly...
I thought he did say that he told them to stay.
I haven't read this account where he claims that accepted that they had to go. Do you have any links to any articles?
He did tell them to stay. That is a known fact.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 08:32:48 PM
He did tell them to stay. That is a known fact.
but he did not insist. he could have done so, told Dodi to stay and send staff to collect their clothes, to give up the stuff About Decoy cars and only takng 1 security guard...
I think he underestimated things and was overconfident that he could "control" his son. Had Al Fayed been present at the Ritz, Dodi would be overruled. ANd Very firmly. Dodi also probably "spun" what was going on.
Im sure MAF could control Dodi by phone. He gave the orders, he said jump and Dodi said How High. Both of them were at fault....
Dodi gave the orders to do this, and probably did not tell his father the exact plans. He was there, he was a lot more to blame.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 08:45:52 PM
Dodi gave the orders to do this, and probably did not tell his father the exact plans. He was there, he was a lot more to blame.
both of them were to blame. MAF could have provided more security guards, ordered Dodi to obey orders and not make their lives difficult.. and not have ordered Dodi to court Diana...
Dodi could have courted Diana without the stop in Paris.
Also if he wanted her to get the ring, he could have sent a minion to his apartment to retrieve it.
He was in all likelyhood trying to impress Diana. IMO.
I read a vanity fair article where it said that Fayed liked Scarface and always made sure to buy people things etc. If I remember correctly.
There's was also another account of him when meeting Diana on vacation tried to act important having phone meetings near Diana so she could see how busy he was.
Probably Diana could see through that but liked other qualities that he showed.
It's darn shame that he felt the need to show off himself that night.
If you mean Dodi, he didn't buy anything because he never had enough money. The presents for Diana came from MAF really.
Do you mean that Dodi pretened to have work related phone calls to impress Diana? I thought that you believed he was working on his film production?
MAF gave his son a large monthly allowance with which he could do as he pleased.
Working on film productions in not a 9-5 job everyday of the year.
Besides, I did not say he pretended. I said he received them in front of Diana in order to impress her.
Dodi had a trust fund but never paid his bills... so the odds are that his "own" money was frittered away on god knows what but he had to go to Dad to get more for buying expensive gifts for Dina. sorry I thought you meant that he pretended to get work calls.. but I doubt if that would have pleased Diana to have her beau chatting bout work on the phone, when she was hoping that this time at least she had a boyfriend who was dedicated to amusig her...
That's alright amabel :)
He was evidently not that good with money, I agree with you.
I don't think that the gifts given to Diana were that expensive, except for that tell me yes ring.
Him chatting about work I think happened only a few times, if I understood it correctly, only in order to show off.
I think he was quite happy in focusing his attention on Diana.
I read in a book about PH that Fayed could be quite charming according to his former date.
very charming.
ANd according to Diana he did ring her up and recite lists of the expensive presnts he was giving her.. so I think we can say he did buy her stuff and showed off about it..
Yes, cashmere sweaters and such from what i've read. Nothing that Diana could not purchase herself since she was wealthy in her own right.
I think that perhaps the Fayed's thought that Diana would be impressed by their generosity and their attentiveness.
She was an astute person, and though fond of them as old family friends, I don't think that she was someone that could be 'pushed' into something.
Then she should have politely declined receiving a lot of gifts...She was teling peolpe that she didn't see the affair lastling.. yet Dodi wasn't being told this message.
She gave him gifts. It is shoulda woulda coulda about what she "should have done." ANy woman who accepts gifts does not mean she is obligated to marry the man.
Quote from: sandy on January 08, 2020, 11:36:33 PM
She gave him gifts. It is shoulda woulda coulda about what she "should have done." ANy woman who accepts gifts does not mean she is obligated to marry the man.
No but it gives the wrong impression. they were only dating a few weeks and lots of expenisve gifts were exchanged. Dodi was tryig to woo her into marriage.. She took his presents and that indicated that she was considering marriage...
But each person has his or her own viewpoints. What bothers one person may not bother another.
There were no financial statements issued about how much these items cost, so it is subject to speculation
DIana accepting gifts is no evidence of her "considering marriage." If all women thought that way that accepting a gift means betrothal, men who don't want to commit or marry would never give gifts to women.
Why do you think Dodi was giving her gifts? Because he hoped to woo her to marry him. He told her of what he was buying for her because he believed that was going to lure her into agreeing to marry him as his father wanted.
Diana had plenty of money. She was not a gold digger who craved material things. There was no obligation on her part to marry him. As far as the expenses of the gifts, that is not a known quantity.
If she didn't crave material things why accept a lot of presents? Why say if she got a ring she'd put it on her right hand? If someone gives yu a pre engageemtn ring, and you're not interested in marriage, you politely refuse the ring.
How many presents were there? How is it known there was "a lot"? If she put it on her right hand, she was not accepting it as an engagement ring. I never heard of engaged to be engaged engagement rings. If he presented it as an engagement ring, she was under no obligation to accept it; SHe could have said no I will not marry you and return the ring, he could have said wear it as a present and then she could have decided to take it or return it. Since it was no longer counted as an engagement ring.
Quote from: sandy on January 09, 2020, 12:21:43 AM
How many presents were there? How is it known there was "a lot"? If she put it on her right hand, she was not accepting it as an engagement ring. I never heard of engaged to be engaged engagement rings. If he presented it as an engagement ring, she was under no obligation to accept it; SHe could have said no I will not marry you and return the ring, he could have said wear it as a present and then she could have decided to take it or return it. Since it was no longer counted as an engagement ring.
It was a pre engagement ring. It meant they weren't engaged but it was a serous relationship.. and it was expensive. If Diana took it she was sending out the wrong signal because she was telling most people that she did not see the relationship as more than a summer romance.
HE never gave it to her. He was never publicly quoted that the Tell Me Yes had anything to do with a wedding. DIana never got the ring, he never made it back to the apartment. I have strong doubts that the divorcee of one year, DIana would rush into a wedding with Dodi whether his father wanted it or not.
Quote from: sandy on January 09, 2020, 12:05:34 PM
HE never gave it to her. He was never publicly quoted that the Tell Me Yes had anything to do with a wedding. DIana never got the ring, he never made it back to the apartment. I have strong doubts that the divorcee of one year, DIana would rush into a wedding with Dodi whether his father wanted it or not.
Of course a tell me yes ring has symbolic value. It has to do with "this is a serious relationship.. the next ring will be a wedding or engagement ring."
The thing is she did not say she'd marry him nor did she have to. Diana never had a chance to react to the Tell Me YEs Ring.
Quote from: sandy on January 09, 2020, 12:16:23 PM
The thing is she did not say she'd marry him nor did she have to. Diana never had a chance to react to the Tell Me YEs Ring.
If she took the ring and wore it on her right hand, that was still taking the ring and giving him a signal that she considered their relationship a serious one. Yet it appears that she did not do so..
She did not get hold of it. It would be good if she had and she'd be alive today whether or not she accepted it.
Quote from: amabel on January 09, 2020, 12:25:16 PM
If she took the ring and wore it on her right hand, that was still taking the ring and giving him a signal that she considered their relationship a serious one. Yet it appears that she did not do so..
No because reportedly MAF was the one who actually purchased it. Apparently Diana never saw it. That gave MAF the opportunity to declare it was an "engagement ring."
I read Dodi went to the Jewelry store and he picked out the ring. The man he dealt with spoke to the media about Dodi's selecting the ring. Maybe it was MAF's money but MAF was not even in Paris at the time. Diana did not see the ring so how can MAF consider it an "engagement ring."
Dodi Fayed bought ?11,000 engagement ring for Diana | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/oct/19/monarchy.uknews4)
He had no chance to propose.
QuoteDiana did not see the ring so how can MAF consider it an "engagement ring."
He can't but that didn't stop him from attempting to create a story about the couple being in love and engaged.
Of course he did, which is why Diana should have been more careful how she interacted with an ambitious and delusional man like MAF.. She msut have known that Dodi wasn't just courting her because of her big blue eyes...
A ring that is accepted by the woman proposed to becomes the engagement ring. If she does not accept it, it is not an engagement ring. It would have to be returned to the store by the man proposing or resold. What Diana knew went with her to her grave.
Quote from: sandy on January 09, 2020, 03:22:05 PM
A ring that is accepted by the woman proposed to becomes the engagement ring. If she does not accept it, it is not an engagement ring. It would have to be returned to the store by the man proposing or resold. What Diana knew went with her to her grave.
but we know that she said she would take a ring if he offered it..
She never said it publicly. If he meant it as an Engagement Ring, I doubt she'd have accepted it.
She never got a proposal. Even if she put it on her right finger and she said no to the proposal it would not be the engagement ring. It would be a gift.
In King Charles III, Anthony Holden wrote: "His (Charles') was the first unarranged marriage of a Prince of Wales in British history. But was it?"
Anthony Holden continues: 'In many ways,' said Harold Brooks-Baker, editor of Brooke's Peerage, 'it was an arranged marriage. He needed a lovely wife, and she (Diana) fitted the bill.'
Did Prince Charles have an arranged marriage?
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on April 10, 2020, 06:50:49 PM
In King Charles III, Anthony Holden wrote: "His (Charles') was the first unarranged marriage of a Prince of Wales in British history. But was it?"
Anthony Holden continues: 'In many ways,' said Harold Brooks-Baker, editor of Brooke's Peerage, 'it was an arranged marriage. He needed a lovely wife, and she (Diana) fitted the bill.'
Did Prince Charles have an arranged marriage?
The circumstances leading up to the marriage of Charles and Diana have been discussed here and on other forums ad nauseum, as you know.
No, it wasn't a formal arranged marriage but Charles felt under pressure to marry from the media, the country and allegedly from his father, as most had fallen in love with Lady Di and found her eminently suitable as a future Princess of Wales.
Charles did not have the bond with Diana that he did with Camilla PB his long term friend, love and mistress, but could not hold out under pressure and so he proposed, leading to years of misery for himself and his wife.
Quote from: Curryong on April 10, 2020, 10:29:10 PM
The circumstances leading up to the marriage of Charles and Diana have been discussed here and on other forums ad nauseum, as you know.
No, it wasn't a formal arranged marriage but Charles felt under pressure to marry from the media, the country and allegedly from his father, as most had fallen in love with Lady Di and found her eminently suitable as a future Princess of Wales.
Charles did not have the bond with Diana that he did with Camilla PB his long term friend, love and mistress, but could not hold out under pressure and so he proposed, leading to years of misery for himself and his wife.
I think he was attracted to her and maybe in love when he was dating her. As you point out, it wasn't an arranged marriage, but it was very similar to one. There seem to be a few royal marriages in history that have the couple being attracted and comfortable with a "suitable" or "acceptable" partner. Some were successful and some were disasters.
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on April 28, 2020, 04:03:16 AM
I think he was attracted to her and maybe in love when he was dating her. As you point out, it wasn't an arranged marriage, but it was very similar to one. There seem to be a few royal marriages in history that have the couple being attracted and comfortable with a "suitable" or "acceptable" partner. Some were successful and some were disasters.
Some were indeed successful. A lot of Victoira's family made what I'd call "sensible" marriages, where they were not madly in love but got to know their parnters as well as was possible in thtat very restricted society.. but they met at royal events and family get togethters.. and many of them worked out pretty well. People did not "fall in love" but they grew intot a comfortable affectionate relationshp. QUeen Mary married George V after her fianc? Eddy had died.. She was pretty certainly not in love with Eddy, but she grew to love George and although they had different interests, their marriage worked out pretty well.
If Lady Diana had not accepted Charles' proposal, how many other aristocratic young ladies under the age of thirty were there for the Prince to consider as a possible wife?
Do you want us to count them all? :D I don't know how many there were, but I would suggest that (a) in contrast to even twenty years before, the number of young aristo women who were (a) anxious to become members of the BRF (b) whose careers/professions were sufficiently uninteresting for them to jump at the chance of accepting a proposal from the POW instead, and (c) and most importantly, whose previous love lives would pass the most meticulous tests the British media could produce, were rapidly declining with each year that passed.
Quote from: Curryong on May 17, 2020, 02:01:01 PM
Do you want us to count them all? :D I don't know how many there were, but I would suggest that (a) in contrast to even twenty years before, the number of young aristo women who were (a) anxious to become members of the BRF (b) whose careers/professions were sufficiently uninteresting for them to jump at the chance of accepting a proposal from the POW instead, and (c) and most importantly, whose previous love lives would pass the most meticulous tests the British media could produce, were rapidly declining with each year that passed.
I don't think that most debby girls at that time were going in for careers. Some did, but mostly I think they still took little jobs like Diana's nursery job, to fill in the time before they married. I think that in the later 70s upper class girls still did not usually go to University or have a career. but I think that probably quite a few would not want to marry into the RF and have the stress of that public life.. whereas probably in the late 1950s had Charles been old enough to marry, there would have been a lot more "gels" who were reasonably keen to marry him...
And yes by the late 70s i'd say that most upper class girls of 20 plus would have had an active love life that would have made for difficulties..
Quote from: QueenAlex on May 17, 2020, 02:29:47 PM
I don't think that most debby girls at that time were going in for careers. Some did, but mostly I think they still took little jobs like Diana's nursery job, to fill in the time before they married. I think that in the later 70s upper class girls still did not usually go to University or have a career. but I think that probably quite a few would not want to marry into the RF and have the stress of that public life.. whereas probably in the late 1950s had Charles been old enough to marry, there would have been a lot more "gels" who were reasonably keen to marry him...
And yes by the late 70s i'd say that most upper class girls of 20 plus would have had an active love life that would have made for difficulties..
...and really, how double standard, hypocritical and ridiculous was that!
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on May 21, 2020, 11:31:40 PM
...and really, how double standard, hypocritical and ridiculous was that!
by the 70s yes, but not earlier. Contraception had made it safe for girls to engage in a sex life before marriage....
I don't think the marriage was 'arranged' in an unofficial way. Maybe prince Charles liked Diana and thought her suitable not just as a future queen, but as a wife for him also. And he was right. Diana was great.
The problem, imo, was his relationship with Camilla. But it's all water under the bridge now anyways.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 14, 2020, 09:18:14 PM
I don't think the marriage was 'arranged' in an unofficial way. Maybe prince Charles liked Diana and thought her suitable not just as a future queen, but as a wife for him also. And he was right. Diana was great.
The problem, imo, was his relationship with Camilla. But it's all water under the bridge now anyways.
the problem was that he and Diana were incompatible. They had few interests in common, there was a big age gap, they have different ideas abuot life, he being old fashioned and her being more modern minded..
Yes he probably thougt that Diana was young and undeveloped but that she had things in common with him, she shared his views and she was a warm attractive girl whom he was attracted to, and that there were foundations to build a marriage on. but He was wrong abuot that.
I don't think he was wrong about that. I think they had alot in common with regards to values and interests. Certainly they different in opinion and interests in some ways. But that's normal.
I also think they complemented each other.
Even though he had royal events scheduled, do you think it might have been helpful if Prince Charles had spent more time with Princess Diana?
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 16, 2020, 01:23:19 AM
I don't think he was wrong about that. I think they had alot in common with regards to values and interests. Certainly they different in opinion and interests in some ways. But that's normal.
I also think they complemented each other.
Yes in some ways they did, as co workers.... in that she had a talent for mixing with people and he was more capable of doing backroom work and the serious speeches...but they found it hard to work together because in their pirvate life, they had so little in common to build their relationship and they got on each others' nerves and rubbed each other up the wrong way...
Both of them found that..
Some couples can have a good personal relationship, based on what seems like very little to an outsider.. but they were not able to find a good personal relationship...
He liked older people.. he looked to the past for solutions to problems... whereas Diana was not a thinker anyway, and preferred her own contemporaries.. She had married young and when she was a little older, she wanted to go out and enjoy herself dancing and having fun with young men and women of her own age. She found Charles' and his older friends boring.
They both meant well and tried to use their high position to do good, but Charles was inclined to agonise about things and to go on about things that Diana while in theory admiring him for caring, found boring.
Diana was prone to depression and Charles while he tried to care for her, found it hard to know what to do for her...
They both loved the children but Charles was more conscious of who the children were, and while he was a loving and not a strict father was more conscious that they could not misbehave In public without the RF looking bad...so there was tension over that as well..
I think they had things in common and complemented each other in other ways.
It wasn't that only PC liked classical music and Diana only pop music etc. It wasn't that black and white. It's possible for someone to like city life but also enjoy the countryside every now and then. Compromises could have been made. That's part of marriage, meeting someone half way, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 20, 2020, 10:36:54 PM
I think they had things in common and complemented each other in other ways.
It wasn't that only PC liked classical music and Diana only pop music etc. It wasn't that black and white. It's possible for someone to like city life but also enjoy the countryside every now and then. Compromises could have been made. That's part of marriage, meeting someone half way, IMO.
But they didn't make compromises. She tried to like thte country life, she had given a good impression durng their courtship that she did love the country but once they were married she changed. She didn't like it, she was miserable when Charles was out hunting or shooting. She didn't want to go with him and she didn't want him to go alone. She had to put up with weekends in the country and visits to Balmoral.. because she was C's wife.. but she got more and more fed up with it. Long before their official separation they were living separately, he staying most of the week at Highgrove and her only visiting at the weekend with the kids. She would stay in her room phoning friends or watching TV. Once she and C had separated, she didn't spend any time in teh country ever again.
Diana did like classical music by the way, it was virtually the only interest she had in common with Charles.. And while in theory people can get by without much in common, they need to have SOMETHING.. or just be very lucky and be able to get on well with someone who doesn't share ones interests. Charles and Diana didnt have any core material to work on hardly, and they rubbed each other up the wrong way. She was ill, depressed and needy. He could be thin skinned and insensitive at times. His work was very important to him and she didnt share his passion for it. SHe was lonley if he wasnt' there but when he was there, they didn't have much to talk about, and thtey got on each other's nerves..
Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?
Quote from: QueenAlex on June 21, 2020, 09:38:53 AM
But they didn't make compromises. She tried to like thte country life, she had given a good impression durng their courtship that she did love the country but once they were married she changed. She didn't like it, she was miserable when Charles was out hunting or shooting. She didn't want to go with him and she didn't want him to go alone. She had to put up with weekends in the country and visits to Balmoral.. because she was C's wife.. but she got more and more fed up with it. Long before their official separation they were living separately, he staying most of the week at Highgrove and her only visiting at the weekend with the kids. She would stay in her room phoning friends or watching TV. Once she and C had separated, she didn't spend any time in teh country ever again.
Diana did like classical music by the way, it was virtually the only interest she had in common with Charles.. And while in theory people can get by without much in common, they need to have SOMETHING.. or just be very lucky and be able to get on well with someone who doesn't share ones interests. Charles and Diana didnt have any core material to work on hardly, and they rubbed each other up the wrong way. She was ill, depressed and needy. He could be thin skinned and insensitive at times. His work was very important to him and she didnt share his passion for it. SHe was lonley if he wasnt' there but when he was there, they didn't have much to talk about, and thtey got on each other's nerves..
She didn't have a problem with Balmoral as such, in my opinion. She wanted to see more of her husband and was worried about him and his other 'relationship' with Camilla, IMO. Her exasperation was with the situation in her marriage, and not primarily because of being in Scotland.
Remember, Diana grew up in Norfolk and Althorp so she was accustomed to that lifestyle. There are pictures of her going for walks and participating in events with regards to hunting (or whatever it's called) in the early nineties. By then her marriage was practically over so she participated out of her own volition. That to me indicates some degree of easiness with that lifestyle, and that it wasn't necessarily feigned.
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Quote from: LouisFerdinand on June 21, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?
I wonder how much Diana confided in them about the marriage in the first years?
Quote from: LouisFerdinand on June 21, 2020, 11:10:50 PM
Do you believe that Lady Sarah and Lady Jane wondered if Diana might not get along so well with Charles?
Probably Sarah wondered that, IMO, but just let it happen. I've got a feeling that Charles was too old fashioned in his ways for her, as well. I think Jane is an optimist and may have hoped for the best. However we shall never know, as not a word has passed either sisters' lips regarding their attitude at that time. Of course they were very wrapped in their own lives then as well, Sarah hadnt been married long at the time of the Charles/Diana engagement, and Jane was a young mum.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 22, 2020, 05:19:39 AM
She didn't have a problem with Balmoral as such, in my opinion. She wanted to see more of her husband and was worried about him and his other 'relationship' with Camilla, IMO. Her exasperation was with the situation in her marriage, and not primarily because of being in Scotland.
Remember, Diana grew up in Norfolk and Althorp so she was accustomed to that lifestyle. There are pictures of her going for walks and participating in events with regards to hunting (or whatever it's called) in the early nineties. By then her marriage was practically over so she participated out of her own volition. That to me indicates some degree of easiness with that lifestyle, and that it wasn't necessarily feigned.
Double post auto-merged: June 22, 2020, 05:21:32 AM
She had to participate in a certain amount of hosting shooting parties , rural life and occasionally joining in a bit.. She was C's wife and as such, it was expected taht she woudl accompay him to Balmoral and Sandringham and host parties at Highgrove for his friends and as the boys grew up, tehy wanted to shoot etc so she coudl not get away from it all. She was accustomed to the rural lifestyle but its clear as an adult she didn't enjoy it.
DUring the holiday she took with Rosa Monkton, she said to her friend that the boys were at Balmoral "out kiling things" and that she was on a sunshine holiday, and that she knew about the "killing things" because she had been brought up ot that lifestyle but it was clear that she didn't like it and while she didn't stop the boys shooting, she didnt' really want to be around it. ..
Not that she had any real objections to shooting or hunting but she jsut found it boring.. and wishes that she did not have to go to Highgrove every weekend..
She did dislike Balmoral once she was C's wife.. It was probalby exciting when she had a weekend there as C's invitee, but that was the charm of novelty and being with the POW. Once she was part of the family, and realised on her honeymoon that this was going to be a big part of her life from now on, she clearly found it pretty depressing and she was increasingly depressed, unhappy and bulimic. She didn't like the house party, but the queen seems to have siad that she would have to "buck up" and learn to participate in the social duties and make the best of it.
She hated C being out shooting, she didn't want to go stalking or shooting with him.. and on one occasion, Charles had to get one of his aides to "babysit" her because she was so miserable.. and it is pretty clear that she just hated being there, was realising that her marriage was not going to be the romanitc idyll she expected, and didn't like rural life. She had to put up with it over teh years but once she and C split up she never had a country home...
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Quote from: Curryong on June 22, 2020, 07:33:03 AM
Probably Sarah wondered that, IMO, but just let it happen. I've got a feeling that Charles was too old fashioned in his ways for her, as well. I think Jane is an optimist and may have hoped for the best. However we shall never know, as not a word has passed either sisters' lips regarding their attitude at that time. Of course they were very wrapped in their own lives then as well, Sarah hadnt been married long at the time of the Charles/Diana engagement, and Jane was a young mum.
I suspect that they did wonder if she woudl cope but I think they felt that she would, after all she'd be Princess of Wales and Queen....
She went along when it came to her spouses interests, withouth necessarily being too fond of it herself. Nothing unusual.
Diana also wanted to spend time with her spouse, again nothing unusual there.
There is no indication however of Diana hating rural life. She might have preferred the city life overall, but that doesn't mean she was averse to spending a week or two in the country.
If PC had been with her often during those vacations I'm sure she wouldn't have minded Balmoral.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 23, 2020, 12:35:23 PM
She went along when it came to her spouses interests, without necessarily being too fond of it herself. Nothing unusual.
Diana also wanted to spend time with her spouse, again nothing unusual there.
There is no indication however of Diana hating rural life. She might have preferred the city life overall, but that doesn't mean she was averse to spending a week or two in the country.
If PC had been with her often during those vacations I'm sure she wouldn't have minded Balmoral.
he was with her.. I don't know what you mean? But part of the rural country set lifestyle is blood sports and outdoor activity...which women don't always participate in. Diana didn't want to join in herself but she got antsty about Charles going off on his own to shoot and hunt. She was miserable on her honeymoon in Balmoral because it hit her that this was what her life was going to be like from now on.. that there would be weeks spent in Scotland, shooting, shooting parties many weekends at Highgrove, spending Christmas in the country with the queen, and she did not like it.
She was increasingly "averse" to spending even short periods of time in the country because she didn't like it.. I don't know how anyone could feel that she liked rural life. She wanted to go on sunshine holidays, she mitht not be averse to one weekend a month in the country but she didn't enjoy going to Highgrove every weekend, where Charles was happy with his sports and his gardens -but she wasn't.
Once she was split up from Charles she spent as Little time in the country as possible. She toyed with renting a house on her brother's estate but that was to please the boys who were I suspect bored when stuck in London on their weekends with her...Once there were problems with the house, she gave up the idea and never seems to have tried to find a country cottage again. When she brought the children to Highgrove to see their father, when she and he were unofficially separated, she spent all her time on her phone or watching TV....
I think things should be seen with her marriage in mind. It was complicated.
IMO, if the marriage had been good she wouldn't have minded being in Balmoral for a couple of weeks.