Princess Diana curtseyed

[TLLK]

She went on pursuing Hoare after he had ended his affair with her and returned to his wife.. and that blew up in her face and she was seen as hypocritical.

@amabel-Good point.

[dianab]

Hoare just broke up with diana when his former chauffeur open up about their affair to a tabloid in march/1995. when he moved back to his wife in 1994 they continued seeing each other. this timeline is in every diana bio (ie sarah bradford book, sally b smith book etc). their mutual close friend elsa bowker told all this stories to Diana biographers. but she said what led to the break-up was the chauffeur opening his mouth.

[royalanthropologist]

I am sometimes hypocritical so I would not be too harsh on Diana. The thing is that Hoare was such a glaring volte face on the wronged woman thing she had on her side. Most people were very sympathetic with Diana. Even someone like PM felt she was misunderstood. It is the occasional hypocrisies and pushing things too far that made some people reconsider. She was very angry with Camilla for breaking the "girl code" and then joined right in. I would like to think it was a mistake and that she would not want to intentionally inflict pain on another woman.

[amabel]

I don't think she cared.  I think when she wanted a man, she went after him and ignored any obstacles.
and yes it was something that began to sour a lot of the public on her.  She had had a lot of sympathy for "being honest enough to say that her marriage had failed" and even "brave enough to admit that she had had a lover herself ".. but when it came out that she had been involved with at least 2 married men, and hadn't been too worried about whether their wives were annoyed by it, people began to cool on her.  She lost sympathy.

[TLLK]

Hoare just broke up with diana when his former chauffeur open up about their affair to a tabloid in march/1995. when he moved back to his wife in 1994 they continued seeing each other. this timeline is in every diana bio (ie sarah bradford book, sally b smith book etc). their mutual close friend elsa bowker told all this stories to Diana biographers. but she said what led to the break-up was the chauffeur opening his mouth.

@dianab-Thank you for sharing this information regarding Diana/Oliver Horare affair timeline.

[sandy]

I don't think she cared.  I think when she wanted a man, she went after him and ignored any obstacles.
and yes it was something that began to sour a lot of the public on her.  She had had a lot of sympathy for "being honest enough to say that her marriage had failed" and even "brave enough to admit that she had had a lover herself ".. but when it came out that she had been involved with at least 2 married men, and hadn't been too worried about whether their wives were annoyed by it, people began to cool on her.  She lost sympathy.

She could not realistically have married Hoare.  Two divorces and all that.

Carling denied an affair. You can't make sweeping statements about "people" cooling on her. There are others who did not "cool on her" .

Hoare never stated what happened between them and Diana did not say so in her lifetime.

I have little sympathy for Hoare because he was no innocent party stalked by Diana. He was a very willing participant which Diana critics appear to ignore.

[TLLK]

I have little sympathy for Hoare because he was no innocent party stalked by Diana. He was a very willing participant which Diana critics appear to ignore.

I have yet to see anyone here praise or speak positively about Hoare for cheating on his wife with Diana who was  a married woman. (However if you have read of any such affirmations for his behavior, I'd be interested in reading it.) As far as I can tell both Diana and Oliver were both willing participants during their affair. The trouble seems to come later when the affair was coming to an end.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

She wouldnt have done the panorama interview if people hadnt "cooled" on her (even I had to admit I was disappointed a time or two in that period). She needed to address some of the bad press she was getting from some of her choices, but people also have to consider, basically a lot of her adult development stopped at age 20 with her marriage and family starting so early. Then after the separation, she had to pick up from where she left off in say 93-94 when she took her time off from her diary to regroup, add to that 12-13 years of living as a royal didnt help either.

A lot of the issues with Diana in that period mirrors the RF, in that they wanted to be seen as the "moral family" but also wanted the freedom to do as they pleased so they tapped themselves. Diana wanted to have the benefit of the "wronged woman" and then she trapped herself and threw away that position a bit with the dalliances with married men.

Its a shame that had she either been older, or taught like she should have by her family/friends, guys like Oliver were really the "best" choice in that they had as much to lose over the affair being exposed as she did (its why Charles so frequently did the same with married women). There could have been an amicable pairing off, C&C, D&O, and APB and Olivers wife to whoever they fancied, and so on and so on.

As far as "sympathy" for Oliver, at least give him credit for playing the game they way it was expected to be played, although low marks for the chatty help LOL. I dont think really should think of him any worse that any other of the parties involved. In fact hes shown great restraint with his tongue and kept Diana out of trouble over the calls, so he may not be a prince charming, but hes no James Hewitt either. :flower:

[sandy]

The Panorama interview was in effect a response to Charles own interview over a year before. I don't recall Diana being "unpopular" ca. that time period. Charles turned many people off with his confession of adultery and the consequence of his forcing the PB divorce.

Diana was wronged. Charles tossed her aside after he got the heir and spare. I doubt she'd have looked at another man if Charles had dropped Camilla. Charles was messing around with married women and he never got the thrashing Diana got for her alleged affairs (Carling denied the affair and Hoare never confirmed or denied it) with the married men. It was all oh so civilized for Charles, the two men involved stepped aside so Charles could have affairs with their wives. The Tryons even went on a vacation with Charles during which Charles had quality time with Lady Tryon. Charles was seen out in public socializing with the PBs while he was involved with Mrs PB.

If Mr Hoare had complained to the police about the Diana, the dirt would have been dished on him publicly. So he kept out of it, I think he realize he was no innocent in it. His wife also held the purse strings in the marriage.

[TLLK]

She wouldnt have done the panorama interview if people hadnt "cooled" on her (even I had to admit I was disappointed a time or two in that period). She needed to address some of the bad press she was getting from some of her choices, but people also have to consider, basically a lot of her adult development stopped at age 20 with her marriage and family starting so early. Then after the separation, she had to pick up from where she left off in say 93-94 when she took her time off from her diary to regroup, add to that 12-13 years of living as a royal didnt help either.

:goodpost:@Duch_Luv. :thumbsup:

Yes and I'm going to add that the trauma that Diana and Charles Spencer suffered due to their parents' divorce certainly had an impact on their emotional development. IMO they both seemed to have stalled at some point and had difficulty in maintaining interpersonal relationships.

However I'm still disappointed in the manner that these adults: Charles, Camilla, APB, Diana, Oliver Horare, etc.. behaved toward each other and their spouses during these years.  <_<

[sandy]

If Charles did not do his unfortunate documentary the year before, I doubt there would have been a Panorama interview. She was said to be angry over it and it was only  a matter of time before she'd give her own interview.

Jane and Sarah were also children of divorce and have been married for years to their only spouses. I think blaming Diana's family background is a cop out since it helps give Charles a free pass. It is the excuse used by the Mountbatten sisters and Junor and others.

What about Prince Charles the way he goes on about poor him and his poor childhood, maybe he had the stalled emotional development. He certainly botched his first marriage and his affairs with his friends' wives was nothing to write home about. And his pursuing a woman who looked like his nanny speaks volumes.

How on earth could Diana "maintain an interpersonal relationship" with a man who married her only to get heirs and also had a mistress around. She stayed 10 years in that marriage she also believed Charles loved her. He admitted later he did not. Any man who marries a woman in that spirit has issues. I am sorry Diana and her family are blamed even saying she was "stalled" I think Charles "stalled" into a self entitled selfish man.

Camilla and APB had an "open" relationship when they dated. I don't understand why Camilla is pitied for it, the two just continued their interpersonal relationship they had while dated into the marriage. Their solution was for Camilla to bed the Prince and his to be free to see others. If she disliked it so much she could have divorced APB.

Diana was not Unpopular in 1994. Charles was unpopular because of his confessions and was the subject of jokes because of the Camillagate tape.

Charles apparently is bitter and cooperates with people who bash his late ex wife. He never accepts any sort of blame.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

She may or may not have given another one in time, but the timing and the questions in this interview were designed to do damage control from some of the stories over the last year or two before then(Oliver, the calls, blaming her staff for them, Hewitts book, Will Carling, the topless photo scandal, etc). So had some of those things not happened, she would have either been able to do one later, or had less to do with digging out of some of the problems she was in at the time, and more effective as a PR weapon against Charles with less damage to herself.

I didnt say Diana was unpopular, just that her popularity was waning because of those events, and where it was her main weapon against the RF, she needed to protect it.

As far as her being angry, that kind of plays into what @TLLK was saying, comparing Sarah and Jane to Diana and Charles is like apples and oranges. By the time the divorce happened, S&J were already in boarding school, and had both parents in their formative years, unlike D&C did. Even Diana said the divorce affected her and Charles more with them being older and away. Also Johnnys compensation by showering them with presents and such, made them materialistic, although none of the four children lacked, but it also affects ones relations with ppl.

So their intact marriages cannot be used as an argument that none of the children were damaged by the divorce. I dont want to speak for TLLK but it seems to me that shes not saying its all Dianas fault or that Charles is given a free pass, what I took from it was that the parents divorce affected D&C ability to maintain interpersonal relationships, not just romantic but in general. Both of them have had more stormy relations with ppl than S&J (or at least what we know of) and I think  big part of that is the family situation that they had when they grew up vs what D&C had.

It doesnt give Charles a free pass to do whatever he wants, but it didnt give Diana the tools she needed to be able to deal with it better, she was left rudderless growing up and learned about romance and men from Cartland books rather than her mother, which is a shame cause if anyone could have taught her about dissatisfaction in marriage and being used as a brood mare it was Frances.

We all know Charles failings as a husband, and they are LEGION, but the issue I was discussing was that either her lack of development and choices led her into a position that damaged her that could have been avoided, even if Charles was going to be a cad.

Its like I said before, if someone steals your wallet you leave on a park bench, theyre bad, but also the family that didnt teach you to not to do, is at fault as well.

[sandy]

The photograph was shown of her with straps down in a bikini top and she was lying face down. It was not as explicit as Kate's photos.

I don't think her popularity was waning. But it was the time of CHarles giving "his side" which appeared to backfire on him. Notably with the PB divorce.  I read that both Wharfe and Jephson loathed Hoare.

Carling denied an affair took place.

Charles family supposedly was "secure" but Charles confessions showed he had issues with his parents. Even though the Queen Mother thought the sun rose and set on Charles he fretted over his parents. He even had his siblings complain about these "confessions." But Charles by his own confessions shows he had issues with his upbringing and he turned to mentors, some not so reputable. Diana's parents divorced but it was not as if she was "worse off" than Charles considering Charles confessions of unhappiness.  Who could deal with Diana's situation. If she had been Jane Doe, she could have seen Charles wearing those cufflinks and walked away from it. As the Princess of Wales and future mother if his heirs she was in  difficult situation.

Frances did not want to interfere and told this to her biographer. She saw the pitfalls but kept them to herself. Diana was only 19 when Charles courted her, she had no "benchmarks" to compare Charles with. That's what Charles wanted, an inexperienced woman who had no past.

Even if Diana came from a home where the parents were married for years and provided a stable environment I don't think Diana would have been "more prepared" for a situation with a high maintenance self centered man. Stephen Barry did not even think Charles needed to marry.

[TLLK]

So their intact marriages cannot be used as an argument that none of the children were damaged by the divorce. I dont want to speak for TLLK but it seems to me that shes not saying its all Dianas fault or that Charles is given a free pass, what I took from it was that the parents divorce affected D&C ability to maintain interpersonal relationships, not just romantic but in general. Both of them have had more stormy relations with ppl than S&J (or at least what we know of) and I think  big part of that is the family situation that they had when they grew up vs what D&C had.

It doesnt give Charles a free pass to do whatever he wants, but it didnt give Diana the tools she needed to be able to deal with it better, she was left rudderless growing up and learned about romance and men from Cartland books rather than her mother, which is a shame cause if anyone could have taught her about dissatisfaction in marriage and being used as a brood mare it was Frances.

We all know Charles failings as a husband, and they are LEGION, but the issue I was discussing was that either her lack of development and choices led her into a position that damaged her that could have been avoided, even if Charles was going to be a cad.

Its like I said before, if someone steals your wallet you leave on a park bench, theyre bad, but also the family that didnt teach you to not to do, is at fault as well

:goodpost: Thank you @Duch_Luver_4ever. Yes, I do believe that Diana and her brother Charles were left "rudderless" after the divorce because when it came to interpersonal relationships as both struggled with them as adults.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

 Sandy, There are pics online of her with no top on the bench she was lying on with no bikini top

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/6d/29/db/6d29dbe527f5ccd8eb62969e8d27f120.jpg

of course because theyre available shes just on her stomach, the other pics were purchased before they could be printed (not the first time thats happened in Spain...perhaps Juan Carlos to the rescue again  :flower: sorry had to troll the ladies on that one).

But thats why theyre not as explicit as Kate's, she didnt have the clout to get them bought up like Diana, also the documentary about her year off mentions she left over the worry of the topless pics being printed as well.

Saying Frances didnt want to interfere doesnt make it right, thats even worse to say she saw the pitfalls and kept her mouth shut, what the hell kind of mother is that? Then she has the cheek to call Diana all sorts of horrible names that last year. That doesnt help your "case" at all, it may explain it, but thats exactly the kind of things she and others in the family should be answerable for.

She WOULD have been more prepared in that she would have had a higher self esteem and wouldnt have sought to get it from the situation she thought she was getting with Charles, while it still would have been unpleasant, she would have had more resources to either weather it better, or not be so keen to get all her satisfaction from Charles. She wouldnt have been so pressured to find someone, anyone who would listen to her. Choosing Barry and Hewitt were more acts of desperation with men who were handily nearby, not chosen after a thoughtful selection of their suitability to be a long lasting secure relationship for her.

Thats what a better family situation would have gotten her, shed have either still been alive and married to Charles or left under much better terms for herself. the only reason you cant or wont see it, is you want to apportion total blame on Charles, when some of that blame rests with others around Diana as well.

Just saw your post while i was writing @TLLK, glad to hear I was on the right thought process with your posts, thanks again for your insights.




Double post auto-merged: October 03, 2017, 05:53:22 AM

Postscript, so while I was finding the link for the pic in the post, heres another one showing no straps from that day in spain again ....shes on her back, no worries (https://i.pinimg.com/736x/8e/dd/bb/8eddbbea9e73c0bc8d55795403756b01--diana-spencer-lady-diana.jpg ) and this one comes close but is still decent https://i.pinimg.com/736x/54/c6/20/54c6200ebb27da5e553cf040fdbbabc0.jpg

I came across some other info that suggests that its likely not the first time she tanned in that way. You may not recall when I had first joined I had posted about a picture of Diana and Jane at night by a pool in which they were skinny dipping.

Well I found some supplemental info on it, apparently it was auctioned off a while ago: (obviously I wont link to the photo but you can find it with some googling). excepted text from the site....regencystamps dot com lot 100.

""PRINCESS DIANA 1979-80 SINGULAR NUDE COLOR JAPANESE MAGAZINE PHOTO
All > CELEBRITY SLEUTH > Top 40
Return To Catalog
Watch this lot
This lot is closed for bidding. Bidding ended on: 12/5/2015

Unearthed in an obscure Japanese publication on a 'figure-finding mission' to Tokyo, this rare 8"x10" color image of a nude teenage Diana Spencer includes her older sister Jane alongside, hidden up to her chest in water. Princess Di was said to enjoy 'sunbathing topless on the roof garden at Kensington Palace, swimming in the nude at Highgrove (another royal residence) and skinny-dipping in the pool at Windsor Castle with Princess Margaret.' Rumors of this revelation first surfaced in journalist James Whitaker's column in Nov. 1984: 'An underground photo purporting to show Princess Diana in the nude is being offered for sale,' the British royal insider wrote. 'The color photograph shows a girl sitting naked on the edge of a swimming pool in which two men are playing. I saw the picture yesterday and...she bears an uncanny resemblance! And another girl in the picture looks even more remarkably like Diana's sister Jane!!' Sniffed Buckingham Palace predictably: 'We have no reason to believe there is such a photo.' They do NOW! Without a stitch, young Diana's top tan-lines add to the allure. Looks like shot was taken at night.""

The internet is full of pics that havent been in magazines, im sure you all have seen the pic in the bahamas where Charles grabs Diana's chest while theyre sunbathing in suits, again let google be your guide. Just cause it wasnt in the tabs or a mag, doesnt mean it doesnt exist.

I dont take any joy having to find this stuff, I much prefer her in casual, adorable clothes, but some of you keep trying to say im wrong, well id suggest ppl that cant/dont want to hear less than perfect news about Diana should take my info at face value and let it go, as in proving it, there always seems to be more and worse stuff out there.

[sandy]

I did not say it was "right" what Frances did, I just reported what she told an interviewer for her biographer.

An underage photo of young Diana makes it worse if this is Diana. The photo could also be a fake. Why would people take a photo of Diana before she became famous--they should have been arrested. There are stories of people filming and taking pictures of women in rest rooms and they get arrested. It's not a reflection on the women but the peeping toms. There are cases of high school teachers who drill an hole and take photos of teenage girls in locker rooms. The girls don't get demonized but  the teacher does.

An uncanny resemblance does not mean it's Diana. this is National Enquirer fodder. IMO.

Charles and Diana and the senior royals were incensed over the photos taken of them in January 1982. It was supposed to be a private time for two people. So he grabs her chest? They were on honeymoon in a supposedly private area. Diana and Charles did not do this in an X rated  film or in a public area. So they did not "sin".

It is not a reflection of Diana and/or Charles but of the paparazzi who are the ones who should be trashed.

It's not as if Diana was a stripper or a Kardashian.

I am curious why do you think this makes Diana less than perfect? And not blame the paparazzi.

Charles got caught with Camilla a few times but they were not married to each other. Diana's chest was grabbed by her husband.

Diana finally sued over the "gym" photos of her exercising.

Joan Crawford the actress actually was said to make X rated films and in the nude. This is a different story than of a married woman cavorting with her husband on a private beach.
Double post auto-merged: October 03, 2017, 02:57:25 PM

Diana only realized the full extent of the situation she was in after the wedding.

How could anybody have any self esteem when treated?
Double post auto-merged: October 03, 2017, 03:13:47 PM

when treated the way Diana was. It was a no win situation.

Jackie Onassis reportedly has some nude photographs out there from sunbathing. She was also stalked by Ron Galella.  And she sued Galella.
Double post auto-merged: October 03, 2017, 03:18:43 PM

Yes, the blame does lie (partially) outside of Charles. His mother and father and aunt and grandmother knew all about Camilla but just watched and condoned the marriage. Even the Archbishop who married them knew. So where is their accountability. Charles had to  have those heirs.  But ultimately, he was the one who made the decisions knowing the full story. He knew he did not love Diana but wanted heirs and had no intention of stopping seeing or contacting Camilla. I have always said that the royals knew it all but condoned the marriage anyway. Even a man of the clergy who knew, condoned the marriage.


I am presenting no "case" Duch, I am just reporting what I read about Diana's mother and did not editorialize over it.

[dianab]

:goodpost:@Duch_Luv. :thumbsup:

Yes and I'm going to add that the trauma that Diana and Charles Spencer suffered due to their parents' divorce certainly had an impact on their emotional development. IMO they both seemed to have stalled at some point and had difficulty in maintaining interpersonal relationships.

However I'm still disappointed in the manner that these adults: Charles, Camilla, APB, Diana, Oliver Horare, etc.. behaved toward each other and their spouses during these years.  <_<

According to Prince Charles, his parents gave him a traumatic childhood too. With him never feeling loved and wanted by them (well known as Anne was favorite of Philip and get on better with the Queen than Charles)... just finding parental affection in his nanny, grandmother and 'uncle' Mountbatten. The Queen and Philip left scars that shaped the character of Charles (according to HIMSELF)... as Johnnie and Frances did with youngest kids Diana & Charles S

[TLLK]

It is not a reflection of Diana and/or Charles but of the paparazzi who are the ones who should be trashed.

I agree @sandy and it's a shame that too often that the public figure is the one who is "trashed" with people referring to them by all sorts of vulgar names.

[dianab]

The photograph was shown of her with straps down in a bikini top and she was lying face down. It was not as explicit as Kate's photos.

I don't think her popularity was waning. But it was the time of CHarles giving "his side" which appeared to backfire on him. Notably with the PB divorce.  I read that both Wharfe and Jephson loathed Hoare. 

They were employees FGS! BTW Diana loathed Wharfe for spying on her and talking to press behind her back as his then boss Colin Trimming said in Diana's inquest and Patrick Jephson confirmed that on his book.

Jephson in his book, never said he loathed Hoare or knew anything about their affair beyone the gossip at KP and seeing his car there... in his book it's quite obvious as he loathed his then boss Diana and as she ruined his good chances with the BP.

I dont think her topless scandal was that big back then... at least, late 1995, nobody even cared, the War of Waleses was about other things. BTW i dont remember the topless pics making Diana look bad in press but as she had no privacy... The Kate & Harry pics really were crass IMO

[sandy]

Wharfe did not like Hoare, and thought him a bad influence on Diana. Jephson expressed disapproval but Charles did not come out of  his book unscathed and Jephson  told the "shopping isn't it darling" story.

The topless photos were but a footnote in books about Diana. Maybe a paragraph or less.

Kate and William photos were a lot lot worse.

Even Sophie had a "topless" albeit blurred photo of herself.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

"I dont think her topless scandal was that big back then... at least, late 1995, nobody even cared, the War of Waleses was about other things. BTW i dont remember the topless pics making Diana look bad in press but as she had no privacy... The Kate & Harry pics really were crass IMO"

We have never seen the topless pics, because the ones where she was shot topless from the front were bought up and the negatives destroyed. The pics in the links are ones in the tabloids. The ppl that did the doc on her "off" year seemed to think it was a lapse in judgement, and as the mother of the heir to the throne, and with her prior experience with the press snapping her on holiday, she should have exercised better judgement. Yes, the press are worse for chasing her, again, its the whole thing about leaving your wallet unattended on a park bench thing, yes its wrong to take it, but the person leaving it out should have known better.

I dont think Diana's a "sinner" or some such, just that it wasnt very good judgement, the things that disappointed me was more the connections real or alleged with married men, doing what she protested was done to her, along with throwing her staff under the bus over the calls.
(edited) [gmod]Use the point NOT the ball. [/gmod]

Now when she left that day there is both still and video of her decolletage quite sunburned, so unless she spent the entire time holding her chest to keep them covered, then she must have been sunbathing topless with photographers around.

I highlighted the honeymoon and other photo to indicate that  its not only the photos that get published are the entirety of what they were up to during that time. I have no moral issue with the picture of C&D, its quite funny, actually.

As to the other picture, Whittaker HAD to say it bears a resemblance to avoid getting sued, frankly im amazed they printed anything at all in those days, considering they sad on the various affairs they all had for so many years. Since we cant agree on stairs, or video or audio recordings from Diana herself, im not going to waste any time on it with you, but given the photo technology at that time, it would be very difficult to do and having both Diana and Jane in the photo and its a posed picture (ie the subjects know theres a camera there) and not a "hole in the wall" picture greatly ups the percentage that its genuine.

As far as Frances, you may not realize it but you are making a case, we all know what Frances ideas were about being hands off, but by saying it and nothing else, its perceived as a defense of what she did. Even with all the mentioning of how Charles family treated him, we all know that and it certainly played into how he behaved, but it has nothing to do with how prepared Diana was to take on a husband, especially one that behaved like Charles did. It seems like youre totally incapable of seeing anything the members of Diana's family did wrong by her, when they really did her a big disservice in helping her navigate the life she chose.

[sandy]

Kate and William won the lawsuit despite the "they should have known better" argument. 

I reported what Frances said. Period.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Im not suggesting W&K shouldnt have won their lawsuit, its totally unrelated to this, but had better judgement been exercised, the whole trial wouldnt have been necessary.

[Trudie]

"I dont think her topless scandal was that big back then... at least, late 1995, nobody even cared, the War of Waleses was about other things. BTW i dont remember the topless pics making Diana look bad in press but as she had no privacy... The Kate & Harry pics really were crass IMO"

We have never seen the topless pics, because the ones where she was shot topless from the front were bought up and the negatives destroyed. The pics in the links are ones in the tabloids. The ppl that did the doc on her "off" year seemed to think it was a lapse in judgement, and as the mother of the heir to the throne, and with her prior experience with the press snapping her on holiday, she should have exercised better judgement. Yes, the press are worse for chasing her, again, its the whole thing about leaving your wallet unattended on a park bench thing, yes its wrong to take it, but the person leaving it out should have known better.

I dont think Diana's a "sinner" or some such, just that it wasnt very good judgement, the things that disappointed me was more the connections real or alleged with married men, doing what she protested was done to her, along with throwing her staff under the bus over the calls.

[gmod]- Edited - Please stop making it about each other[/gmod]

Now when she left that day there is both still and video of her decolletage quite sunburned, so unless she spent the entire time holding her chest to keep them covered, then she must have been sunbathing topless with photographers around.

I highlighted the honeymoon and other photo to indicate that  its not only the photos that get published are the entirety of what they were up to during that time. I have no moral issue with the picture of C&D, its quite funny, actually.

As to the other picture, Whittaker HAD to say it bears a resemblance to avoid getting sued, frankly im amazed they printed anything at all in those days, considering they sad on the various affairs they all had for so many years. Since we cant agree on stairs, or video or audio recordings from Diana herself, im not going to waste any time on it with you, but given the photo technology at that time, it would be very difficult to do and having both Diana and Jane in the photo and its a posed picture (ie the subjects know theres a camera there) and not a "hole in the wall" picture greatly ups the percentage that its genuine.

As far as Frances, you may not realize it but you are making a case, we all know what Frances ideas were about being hands off, but by saying it and nothing else, its perceived as a defense of what she did. Even with all the mentioning of how Charles family treated him, we all know that and it certainly played into how he behaved, but it has nothing to do with how prepared Diana was to take on a husband, especially one that behaved like Charles did. It seems like youre totally incapable of seeing anything the members of Diana's family did wrong by her, when they really did her a big disservice in helping her navigate the life she chose.

[gmod]Edited[/gmod] using Frances hands off approach as a defense for Diana being ill equipped to take on the marriage with Charles. The truth is Johnnie Spencer was ill equipped to parent Diana and Charles S during their formative years Nannies didn't prepare the upperclass children regarding what was expected of them. The custody of the two youngest Spencers was born out of spite after years of ill treatment Frances left the marriage not her children and that the man she had her affair and later married was a non aristocrat her snobby mother stepped in also out of spite to punish her.

As for Charles Sandy had very valid points in her post just where was the accountability?

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Well it sure looks that way when I said this "It doesnt give Charles a free pass to do whatever he wants, but it didnt give Diana the tools she needed to be able to deal with it better, she was left rudderless growing up and learned about romance and men from Cartland books rather than her mother, which is a shame cause if anyone could have taught her about dissatisfaction in marriage and being used as a brood mare it was Frances.

We all know Charles failings as a husband, and they are LEGION, but the issue I was discussing was that either her lack of development and choices led her into a position that damaged her that could have been avoided, even if Charles was going to be a cad.

Its like I said before, if someone steals your wallet you leave on a park bench, theyre bad, but also the family that didnt teach you to not to do, is at fault as well."

Her response to it was to state her piece about Frances, whereas if shed have indicated that "its no defense, but" or "i know Frances should have did better, but" and then stated about Frances being hands off, it would have come across more clearly that she wasnt intending it to be a defense of what Frances did.

You wont get any disagreement from me about Charles being accountable for his actions in the courtship and marriage, but just as important was the lack of responsibility the family showed in equipping Diana for a husband, if it hadnt been Charles it could have been someone else that something as bad as he did, or worse.

I find it interesting that in the wake of the womens lib movement and female empowerment and all that, so many women especially, (sorry but have to call it as I see it) today seem to be ok with Diana being allowed to walk into this dreadful situation, as long as the victim card can be played.

Its like the saying "would you rather be happy, or right?" ppl seem to rather Diana be "right" in being a victim, rather than her having the chance to be "happy" so to speak, by her family giving her the tools to recognize what a cad Charles was, and have the tools to either go ahead with it in a more satisfactory manner, or to have called it off for someone else, but they let her have stars in her eyes, and it came back to bite her, when it didnt have to.