I started this in the PoW forum but realized it was more relevant here in Elizabeth's. :D
My original question.
Out of curiosity, what suggestions do posters have regarding how QEII's children and grandchildren who work for the "Firm" could or should be helping her with her duties? I frequently read something along the lines of "_________ should be doing more to help QEII," without any suggestions of a specific duty.
So RIF posters could you please share specific examples of tasks that you believe QEII's children and grandchildren should taking on due to any age related issues Elizabeth might have? (I am of the opinion that they are currently supporting her with duties/obligations at this point in time in the manner that she has agreed to, but I sense that not everyone agrees with me.)
Charles is taking on duties in addition to his own. Therefore someone needs to take up the slack, this would be William and if William does his own and his father's then Harry takes some of them up. William as future King is two heartbeats away and should learn on the job. It is not known what the Queen agrees to or wants: William did step up after he gave up the ambulance work.. It's the natural order of things and William and Harry are in their thirties, their father is pushing 71 and his mother is 93. I don't see why it would be an issue if the others stepped up which I think is a reason that a line of succession is in place.
@sandy-Thank you for your response. Yes I do agree and realize that Charles is taking on duties in addition to his own especially QEII's foreign travel. William like his father and aunt is also assisting QEII with the investitures throughout the year so I would consider that to be part of his "on the job training." Also all of QEII's children/spouses and her Wales grandchildren/spouses are undertaking more overseas travel to the Commonwealth nations and other countries. Again I find that this is excellent "on the job" training for her heir and the heir-to-the-heir. Also noted in the CC is that both Charles and William are stepping up to take a more hands on management with the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.
QEII has chosen in recent years to relinquish the patronage of some of her hundreds of groups and her family have stepped up to take these on. This offers the younger members to become more actively involved and for the patronages to have a new representative for their work. :)
@sandy-Do you have any specific suggestions regarding QEII's current duties that you believe her children/their spouses and Wales' grandchildren/their spouses should take on to assist QEII? Should they take on some of her ceremonial military roles? Should they accompany her to various outings?
I get the sense that, like Philip until his late 90s, Elizabeth is fiercely determined to do her duties for as long as she possibly can. Hence her remark recently when someone offered to help that she was 'perfectly capable of planting a tree!' And so her children and grandchildren do as much as they can to help without standing on her toes so to speak!
We don't see much specifically yet. It's all subtle. Because the Queen can no longer climb the winding stairs to sit in her top seat at the Order of the Garter ceremony Charles now does it. Her children have been seen individually accompanying her at many engagements, even extremely busy people like Anne. It's plain the Queen enjoys that. She misses PP by her side for sure.
The Queen has reputedly had trouble with her knees for several years but it's clear that some days are better than others with that. However there may well come a time when the steps at the Houses of Parliament are too much and Charles may be opening Parliament on the Queen's behalf, including the speech but without the Crown.
Quote from: TLLK on July 24, 2019, 12:07:32 AM
@sandy-Thank you for your response. Yes I do agree and realize that Charles is taking on duties in addition to his own especially QEII's foreign travel. William like his father and aunt is also assisting QEII with the investitures throughout the year so I would consider that to be part of his "on the job training." Also all of QEII's children/spouses and her Wales grandchildren/spouses are undertaking more overseas travel to the Commonwealth nations and other countries. Again I find that this is excellent "on the job" training for her heir and the heir-to-the-heir. Also noted in the CC is that both Charles and William are stepping up to take a more hands on management with the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall.
QEII has chosen in recent years to relinquish the patronage of some of her hundreds of groups and her family have stepped up to take these on. This offers the younger members to become more actively involved and for the patronages to have a new representative for their work. :)
@sandy-Do you have any specific suggestions regarding QEII's current duties that you believe her children/their spouses and Wales' grandchildren/their spouses should take on to assist QEII? Should they take on some of her ceremonial military roles? Should they accompany her to various outings?
I would imagine that the RF are capable of working out what the queen is up to doing these days, (She clearly is still determined to go on as much as she can and I don't think she will ever completely give up her work).. and to share out the duties that she is not up to. Will and Harry are doing full time royal work nowadays.. and Charles is taking on some more of the queen's more strenuous duties and she no longer does travelling jobs...
Thank you for asking this question, TLLK. Here is my opinion: I think they (meaning the royals and staff) have already figured out how the responsibilities will be distributed and when. They have already begun, and in a very sensible and organized way. Every once in a while there may be big changes, such as when the Duke retired and several patronages were handed down from both the Queen and the Duke. If the Queen should get ill very suddenly, I think there is probably a plan in place for that, too. But I think the hope is that she will gradually do less and be comfortable with those engagements she can still take on. It's remarkable how much she smiles wherever she goes, which proves to me that she is happy with how the plan is going so far. But perhaps one of the concerns of many is that Charles seems to be taking on more and more, and his sons should be taking some of the pressure off of him. I have an opinion about that, too: He wants to do it ....he loves what he does and is finally seeing results...he wants to do more while he still can as POW, because when he is the Sovereign that will all change. He will be unable to take on the projects he does now to support his passions and causes. You can't do those things if you are the Sovereign. He was recently filmed exclaiming, "...but there is so much more I want to do!"
Thank you everyone for your responses!
@PrincessCassandra and
@sandy-You've both pointed out that with the PoW taking on duties for his mother that his sons should be stepping up to help him with some of his duties. Again like
@Princess Cassandra I agree that Charles is passionate about his causes and duties and wants to be very involved with them so IMHO he might be reluctant to hand them off. Beyond William starting to be the representative at the Duchy of Cornwall meetings, do either of you have any suggestions as to what William and Harry could do to assist him? :)
Quote from: TLLK on July 24, 2019, 02:19:01 PM
Thank you everyone for your responses!
@PrincessCassandra and @sandy-You've both pointed out that with the PoW taking on duties for his mother that his sons should be stepping up to help him with some of his duties. Again like @Princess Cassandra I agree that Charles is passionate about his causes and duties and wants to be very involved with them so IMHO he might be reluctant to hand them off. Beyond William starting to be the representative at the Duchy of Cornwall meetings, do either of you have any suggestions as to what William and Harry could do to assist him? :)
but they are doing more. Both of them were part time royals..now both are full time. They are doing foreign tours, taking on patronages thtat the queen or Phil used to have.
Yes I agree
@amabel but I was wondering if anyone had some other specific suggestions on how they could assist QEII and the PoW as often times there are calls for the brothers to "do more" without any examples of how they're to do just that.
Quote from: TLLK on July 24, 2019, 03:22:56 PM
Yes I agree @amabel but I was wondering if anyone had some other specific suggestions on how they could assist QEII and the PoW as often times there are calls for the brothers to "do more" without any examples of how they're to do just that.
I agree... But I think they are doing what the RF as a whole and particularly the queen want. She IS doing a bit less, each year but she is still active. Will and H are now taking on things, leaving her free to concentrate on what she CAN still do OK -. I believe that Anne and the other kids sometimes accompany her to engagements so she has company and support esp now that Phil is not with her.
My feeling is that the Queen's children and grandchildren are doing as much as they possibly can do to assist Grannie without irritating her. I remember when Will joined the Air Ambulance there were calls from the media for him to go fulltime on Royal duties as his grandparents were in their 90s.
In a brief interview he inferred that it was difficult to do more as he (and presumably his wife, brothers and York cousins) had offered several times but that his grandparents were prepared to work to the end. (Of course things have changed since Philip's retirement but I can imagine the Queen saying to her grandsons 'I, and your father, aunt and uncles, can manage very well at the moment, thanks'.) In other words 'The new reign will come soon enough. Until then I'm in charge and I soldier on.'
:goodpost:
@Curryong and :goodpost:
@amabel
I do wonder sometimes whether the Queen dreads the new reign. Not for herself naturally as she won't be around to see it, but for the future of the British monarchy. Charles is unpopular. It's no good saying he isn't. In the chapter Pernicious Lies in the new bio Jobson discusses the British public's reaction to Charles and what the POW feels are the myths implanted by Diana and the media that are continuing to harm him. Of course there are other things, Camilla is not really accepted either, and Charles is still regarded as a bit of an eccentric and meddler.
The trouble is that although the media at the moment are largely ignoring the coming reign republicanism may well get an upsurge and it will be discussed. I don't believe it will be enough to unseat the BRF but this long long reign and the huge respect the Queen is held in by many people doesn't bode well for her successor. It would still be an huge jolt even if Charles was enormously popular. But he isn't and Charles knows it and IMO the Queen does too.
I'd like Charles to have his turn. but Im not very bothered about William
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on July 24, 2019, 02:00:15 PM
Thank you for asking this question, TLLK. Here is my opinion: I think they (meaning the royals and staff) have already figured out how the responsibilities will be distributed and when. They have already begun, and in a very sensible and organized way. Every once in a while there may be big changes, such as when the Duke retired and several patronages were handed down from both the Queen and the Duke. If the Queen should get ill very suddenly, I think there is probably a plan in place for that, too. But I think the hope is that she will gradually do less and be comfortable with those engagements she can still take on. It's remarkable how much she smiles wherever she goes, which proves to me that she is happy with how the plan is going so far. But perhaps one of the concerns of many is that Charles seems to be taking on more and more, and his sons should be taking some of the pressure off of him. I have an opinion about that, too: He wants to do it ....he loves what he does and is finally seeing results...he wants to do more while he still can as POW, because when he is the Sovereign that will all change. He will be unable to take on the projects he does now to support his passions and causes. You can't do those things if you are the Sovereign. He was recently filmed exclaiming, "...but there is so much more I want to do!"
William is the heir to the heir. He also has to be on call for both his grandmother and his father. In the event that one or both are ill he would for that interim need to step up and do more. Especially since his grandfather retired.
but he is doing that. He is now doing investitures, foreign tours, full time engagements.. and Charles is doing some of the things that the queen used to do but now isn't quite fit enough to do.. which involve a lot of standing or walking. I think that they've planned things quite well.. Charles and the queen bot have very good health and are rarely ill but Im sure that William could take on things if it idd become necessary...
@amabel-IMO what you stated is true and I agree that the BRF seem to have planned things quite well. I believe they've tried to take every scenario into consideration and prepare for it. Should QEII and the PoW's health or deaths require William to step in as the regent or become the monarch or to shoulder more responsibilities he'd be able to do so.
QuoteMy feeling is that the Queen's children and grandchildren are doing as much as they possibly can do to assist Grannie without irritating her.
:D IMO
@Curryong has stated what I believe to be true.
Of course he will. He has staff to support him and other family members..
Yes. This is a well run machine and they've prepared as best they can IMO for when QEII's reign ends and other possibilities.
Quote from: TLLK on July 25, 2019, 02:55:25 PM
Yes. This is a well run machine and they've prepared as best they can IMO for when QEII's reign ends and other possibilities.
I think it helps hat the queen has such excellent healtlh. She is harldly ever ill and has only been in hospital maybe twice In her life. SO while the children and grandchildren are helping, she is not giving up her work
Quote from: Curryong on July 24, 2019, 04:14:15 PM
I do wonder sometimes whether the Queen dreads the new reign. Not for herself naturally as she won't be around to see it, but for the future of the British monarchy. Charles is unpopular. It's no good saying he isn't. In the chapter Pernicious Lies in the new bio Jobson discusses the British public's reaction to Charles and what the POW feels are the myths implanted by Diana and the media that are continuing to harm him. Of course there are other things, Camilla is not really accepted either, and Charles is still regarded as a bit of an eccentric and meddler.
The trouble is that although the media at the moment are largely ignoring the coming reign republicanism may well get an upsurge and it will be discussed. I don't believe it will be enough to unseat the BRF but this long long reign and the huge respect the Queen is held in by many people doesn't bode well for her successor. It would still be an huge jolt even if Charles was enormously popular. But he isn't and Charles knows it and IMO the Queen does too.
It seems many of us have thought about the somewhat precarious situation of the monarchy, and the royals are certainly trying to adapt to the times. You are probably quite right that the Queen frets a bit about it. Precarious is too strong a word, but I can't think of the right one!
Present and beyond (who/what you would like the monarchy versus a republic when Charles is King), the latest Mori/YouGov polls/surveys the monarchist from 2015 to 2019 remain is landslide majority. Only 3% have it as a priority to abolish.
Quote from: TLLK on July 25, 2019, 02:55:25 PM
Yes. This is a well run machine and they've prepared as best they can IMO for when QEII's reign ends and other possibilities.
Yes, I am pretty sure that the Queen is quite happy to continue with the current plan, and the real question is how to support the POW, who clearly doesn't appear to me to feel the need for it. During the 70th birthday documentary William discussed how healthy the POW is, but that they (he, his brother and probably others) have been trying to take more time for leisure, saying that he was a wonderful grandfather and loves the time with his grandchildren. He indicated that they were all trying to convince him to take more time with them. That said a lot to me. But clearly he is full of ideas and isn't in a slowing down frame of mind.
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2019, 04:08:13 PM
Quote from: wannable on July 25, 2019, 04:03:49 PM
Present and beyond (who/what you would like the monarchy versus a republic when Charles is King), the latest Mori/YouGov polls/surveys the monarchist from 2015 to 2019 remain is landslide majority. Only 3% have it as a priority to abolish.
That is good news! And I've had another thought since I posted on Curryong's quote. Edward VII was very unpopular as POW, but when he became king he very quickly became appreciated.
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2019, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: amabel on July 25, 2019, 03:08:53 PM
I think it helps hat the queen has such excellent healtlh. She is harldly ever ill and has only been in hospital maybe twice In her life. SO while the children and grandchildren are helping, she is not giving up her work
You are so right, Amabel!
QuoteAll I'm saying is that there may well be a lot of discussion as to what kind of a monarchy is wanted or needed after Elizabeth.
:nod:
Which I believe is a discussion that will happen not only in the UK but throughout the Commonwealth nations too ie Australia which have the British monarch as their HoS.
Having seen many changes in the various monarchies via deaths or abdications in the 21st there always seems to be some discussion about the following:
1. Keeping or ending the monarchy-With the exception of Nepal (entire royal family murdered) these have by and large been very peaceful handovers. What seems to be the greatest concern now is just "relevance" to the European monarchies even in nations like Sweden where the heir is very popular.
2. Discussion on the suitability and preparedness of the adult heir especially in a hereditary monarchy.
3. If the monarchy is retained, who besides the monarch/consort/heir are going to be official representatives who are funded by the state for their duties. In Spain and the NL this is outlined in the constitution. In the other nations, it's not quite spelled out "who does what, when and where."
For someone like Elizabeth who has seen so many of her peers leave their thrones in recent years and have been replaced by their heirs, she must have so many diverse thoughts and feelings on this topic. This isn't the NL where every 30-40 years, a relatively quiet and easy abdication occurs in which the monarch can sit back and enjoy their retirement while offering the occasional bit of advice if solicited. By contrast this isn't Spain either which saw a once very popular monarch take a steep tumble that threw the future of the monarchy into question.
Glad that I'm not sitting in her seat. :notamused:
As I've said before, TLLK, while there is tremendous respect for the Queen in Australasia, (Aus and New Zealiand) I don't necessarily believe that feeling for the Crown will last much beyond the end of Queen Elizabeth's reign.
Let's put it this way. IMO the chances of William becoming HOS of the major Realms in say twenty years as they are now constituted is less than zero. Nor do I believe that he will inherit his father's position as Honorary Head of the Commonwealth.
IMO the position was handed to Charles not so much on merit (though he is a hard worker and frequent traveller around the Commonwealth) but because of the respect and admiration the Govt heads have for the Queen. The knew she would have been terribly disappointed if another choice had been proposed and they didn't want that. However, that will not continue in the future.
The present POW is not popular in Australia or New Zealand really, there is little affection or respect for him, and I do believe that these two realms will become republics in Charles's reign. And as for Canada a couple of Canadian royalists admitted to me that if a referendum was able to be tabled then the result could go either way. The Commonwealth of Nations will remain as a unifier but the transferring of the Realms into republics will necessarily give a different slant to that organisation's affairs.
probably the end of the monarchy after Charles..
Quote from: amabel on July 26, 2019, 07:11:40 AM
probably the end of the monarchy after Charles..
Time will tell - who knows that some royal could do something that really lets down the whole and everyone leans towards the republican train of thought. On the other hand, the excitement of the pageantry and the glamour of royal events are more prevalent in GB than anywhere else (or perhaps more widely reported?) and gives its citizens a feeling of uniqueness, or specialness. Although less so, there are still lots of crowds at events that even include a lot of young people. The mystique is still there.
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on July 28, 2019, 05:18:50 PM
Time will tell - who knows that some royal could do something that really lets down the whole and everyone leans towards the republican train of thought. On the other hand, the excitement of the pageantry and the glamour of royal events are more prevalent in GB than anywhere else (or perhaps more widely reported?) and gives its citizens a feeling of uniqueness, or specialness. Although less so, there are still lots of crowds at events that even include a lot of young people. The mystique is still there.
I don't know.. I think that the excitement of watching royal events is less than it was.. people are now much more inclined to groan about the cost and security issues than to enjoy them. And I think that while Charles has ideas about what he wants to do, William might be content to let things go.. and when his turn comes lalong..he would not be that keen. Or it might be that when Will becomes King, royal life will be very much limited to Opening parliament and a bit of charity wrok and nto a full time job...
Quote from: amabel on July 28, 2019, 05:23:03 PM
I don't know.. I think that the excitement of watching royal events is less than it was.. people are now much more inclined to groan about the cost and security issues than to enjoy them. And I think that while Charles has ideas about what he wants to do, William might be content to let things go.. and when his turn comes lalong..he would not be that keen. Or it might be that when Will becomes King, royal life will be very much limited to Opening parliament and a bit of charity wrok and nto a full time job...
I don't know either, because I only see the crowds from the media's prospective. Not only that but we don't know how the public will react to Prince Charles's ideas, even if they are good ones. Regarding Prince William, however, during the interview for the POW's 70th year, he did make some surprising comments. I can't quote exactly, but he indicated that he loves what his father has done but when the time comes he has ideas of how he wants to go on. He even used the term, "I want to be my own man". No doubt he has discussed these with his father, but it sounds like we should not expect things to just go on as they are where POW projects are concerned.
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on July 29, 2019, 06:07:46 PM
I don't know either, because I only see the crowds from the media's prospective. Not only that but we don't know how the public will react to Prince Charles's ideas, even if they are good ones. Regarding Prince William, however, during the interview for the POW's 70th year, he did make some surprising comments. I can't quote exactly, but he indicated that he loves what his father has done but when the time comes he has ideas of how he wants to go on. He even used the term, "I want to be my own man". No doubt he has discussed these with his father, but it sounds like we should not expect things to just go on as they are where POW projects are concerned.
Mm, I do think that esp if Charles isn't that popular as a King.. maybe the monarchy wil only survive in a much more restricted form by the time Will comes along. I think that Will may have a few ideas.. but If he was told "All we wants from you is to turn up to Open Parliament and a few things like that, and maybe a charity gig or 2" he would be OK with it... He would be happy with his private life and not want to be a vry active King.
Historically the public does not take well to inactive monarchs. They like them to be more engaged with the public and not retreating. It would not be a popular reign IMO if that is his decision.
Quote from: sandy on July 29, 2019, 07:25:31 PM
Historically the public does not take well to inactive monarchs. They like them to be more engaged with the public and not retreating. It would not be a popular reign IMO if that is his decision.
Sandy as I said, its quite possible the public will not want an "active monarch". Charles may well be an active monarch.. as he has been an activist POW...and we're told that he is not popular. In years to come the public and establishment may well want the King/queen to just do a bit of ceremonial and not the whole set of public engaegments that they do at present. Many European Monarchies only have a couple of royals working.. just the Monarch and consort, the heir and consort.. and they don't do nearly as many public appearances as the British royals do.
And I'd say William will be OK with that.. or even with the end of the monarchy..
It will be interesting to see how things might change with Charles' reign. Most of the European houses have limited the number of royals who take on official engagements to monarch/consort, adult heir/spouse and perhaps one or two other adults-former monarch/consort or adult sibling/spouse.
These monarchies function with the monarch attending meetings and making appearances primarily in the capital but with some domestic travel to different provinces and of course overseas travel. WA, Felipe, Phillipe, Henri, and their spouses handle the majority of the work and have for the most part excluded either aunts/uncles and in two of those nations, siblings.
There is typically a Remembrance Day, opening of Parliament, military parade/event, Thanksgiving event, National Day on everyone's calendar so these events are always attended by the main core of the royal families. Add to that the usual domestic meetings, State Visits, and foreign travel, it would be possible to scale back the BRF as well. I honestly believe that by Charles' reign, he'll slowly reduce the size of the BRF over the years to mirror what his European peers do.
the next regime may want to reverse what Charles says he will do as King. Or any future monarch.
@sandy-If Charles chooses to slim down the monarchy in an effort to reign in some of the costs, I would be very surprised if the government and the public would be in favor of "reversing" the trend back to a larger pool of working royals.
That's so TLLK and I agree that the BRF will be significantly trimmed down in Charles's reign. However I can't imagine that he will get rid of his siblings for a while. Anne for instance might continue on for the next ten years before retiring, and I imagine the Wessexes might well be given some patronages directly connected now with the Dukedom of Edinburgh. They already have some. I don't know what he will do about Andrew.
One thing that makes the BRF distinct from other European monarchies is of course the Commonwealth. And I know the Spanish royals visit South American spheres of influence, but it's not like the BRF. There are military and charitable and official links all over between the monarch, Royal family and the countries concerned. Even if (as I think) the realms will become republics in the next reign, many of those links will remain and so therefore will the tours every two or three years.
None of the European monarchies have a separate country attached to the main body as Scotland is to England (except for the Faroes to Denmark.) Therefore Royal duties in Scotland will remain, for as long as that attachment under the Crown exists.
That adds extra layers other monarchies don't have, and with an elderly monarch and his even more elderly wife, long distance travel for instance, would more and more fall on younger royals. It wouldn't be able to be handled by four people in my estimation, as more would be needed when senior royals are out of the country.
Quote from: TLLK on July 30, 2019, 04:05:39 AM
@sandy-If Charles chooses to slim down the monarchy in an effort to reign in some of the costs, I would be very surprised if the government and the public would be in favor of "reversing" the trend back to a larger pool of working royals.
Very true.. I think Charles will always be an activiist.. but I don't think that William is quite like that.. and while he may do charity wrork he will be doing it more as "William Windsor" than as the king.. and if the ceremonial and other duties are scaled back it is unlikely that the Govt and public would want that changed.
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Quote from: sandy on July 30, 2019, 12:23:43 AM
the next regime may want to reverse what Charles says he will do as King. Or any future monarch.
but why? Its been said that Charles is not that popular and some of that is due to his beig perceived as a "meddler" and over anxious to be an active Prince/king. So a King who takes a back step and isn't seen as "doing too much".. is likely to be more popular. Plus Charles IS concerned for costs and while during his reign he will probably work as hard as he can to do as much as he reasonably can with the aid of his 2 sons.. and his siblings.. he is clearly working towards a smaller pool of royal workers. I think the reactions to things like royal weddings, which were traditioanly a "show" that the public enjoyed, shows that people just don't take the same pleasure in watching a big "show" by royals the way they used to.. There's a lot more grumbling about the costs and the security issues. Even Harry who is the son of a future King, ended up being married in a ceremony in Windosr whereas even say 10 years ago, he would certainly have been married in London and had a really big show..
Quote from: amabel on July 30, 2019, 07:07:02 AM
Very true.. I think Charles will always be an activiist.. but I don't think that William is quite like that.. and while he may do charity wrork he will be doing it more as "William Windsor" than as the king.. and if the ceremonial and other duties are scaled back it is unlikely that the Govt and public would want that changed.
Double post auto-merged: July 30, 2019, 08:07:41 AM
but why? Its been said that Charles is not that popular and some of that is due to his beig perceived as a "meddler" and over anxious to be an active Prince/king. So a King who takes a back step and isn't seen as "doing too much".. is likely to be more popular. Plus Charles IS concerned for costs and while during his reign he will probably work as hard as he can to do as much as he reasonably can with the aid of his 2 sons.. and his siblings.. he is clearly working towards a smaller pool of royal workers. I think the reactions to things like royal weddings, which were traditioanly a "show" that the public enjoyed, shows that people just don't take the same pleasure in watching a big "show" by royals the way they used to.. There's a lot more grumbling about the costs and the security issues. Even Harry who is the son of a future King, ended up being married in a ceremony in Windosr whereas even say 10 years ago, he would certainly have been married in London and had a really big show..
But Charles has already said that he knows he cannot be an activist when he is king, which is why he is working so hard to support his strong opinions now. He knows that the sovereign role is completely different, and he seems to view it as a complete change of life and mission, which of course it will be. I'm sure he has studied his mother's, grandfather's and great grandfather's reigns. He is well read and a student of history, but for all that, he is a servant of the people, and if the people don't like how he perceives his role......
I meant he'll be an activist in the sense thtat he will be vrery busy, and that he will still have interests in terms of his work that he will pursue as much as he can within the role of King. He is not going to just turn up a few times a year, he will still work very hard.
Yes
@amabel IMO we need to define the difference between an activist and a monarch who will be active in fulfilling his/her role/duties.
The majority of constitutional monarchs (primarily found in Europe) are not allowed to be "activists" though they are active. IMHO Charles knows that once he's the monarch that he can no longer be as free with his viewpoints on the environment, homeopathy, architecture etc..but he will be as active as he can by fulfilling his required duties/roles.
Quote from: TLLK on July 30, 2019, 05:11:06 PM
Yes @amabel IMO we need to define the difference between an activist and a monarch who will be active in fulfilling his/her role/duties.
The majority of constitutional monarchs (primarily found in Europe) are not allowed to be "activists" though they are active. IMHO Charles knows that once he's the monarch that he can no longer be as free with his viewpoints on the environment, homeopathy, architecture etc..but he will be as active as he can by fulfilling his required duties/roles.
well I mean that I don't think William's heart is in being King the way Charles' is. Charles really wants to do good iwht his being POW and King.. William is not quite like thtat and I think if the role of King was reduced to a very few ceremonial duties.. he would be fine with that.
@amabel-Honestly I believe that QEII's grandchildren are purposely not taking on quite as many patronages/charities as the older generations as they know the future will see a smaller pool of working royals. IMO they'll be busy with those tasks/charities/patronages that are on a national level. (This is what I've noticed is happening in monarchies that limit the size of the working royals-Spain, the NL.) However this might be challenging as the UK as it is currently made up of four different kingdoms with their own unique traditions etc..For example the UK sends one united Olympic team but England, Scotland, Wales and I believe Northern Ireland also have their own national teams for other sports.
Quote from: TLLK on July 31, 2019, 12:26:31 AM
@amabel-Honestly I believe that QEII's grandchildren are purposely not taking on quite as many patronages/charities as the older generations as they know the future will see a smaller pool of working royals. IMO they'll be busy with those tasks/charities/patronages that are on a national level. (This is what I've noticed is happening in monarchies that limit the size of the working royals-Spain, the NL.) However this might be challenging as the UK as it is currently made up of four different kingdoms with their own unique traditions etc..For example the UK sends one united Olympic team but England, Scotland, Wales and I believe Northern Ireland also have their own national teams for other sports.
Yes,I think that although Charles still does want to do something - use hs position to make difference.. - he is alsos conscious of cost issues and the changes in the world of royalty and he's preparing for his son to have a more limited role..if that's what the Govt and public want.. and for there to be less royals helpling hm and William...
Charles really can't influence William after William takes over. Charles may like to try to "mold" William to his vision of a perfect monarch. But once Charles passes on or William becomes regent if Charles is incapacitated, Will would probably want to do his own vision of the perfect monarch. Charles can perhaps only suggest but William when he's monarch would be the one calling the shots.
And do you really think Will's idea of the perfect monarch is going to be a very active and outgoing one? He is much less inclined to puzzle over issues and to work very hard than his father has always been. Plus, as has been said, the cost issue is likely to appeal to the Govt and public.. in that they will want the RF to be run cheaper and simpler and that means less royals doing public duties and the Monarch also operating in a simpler way. Probalby Charles will want to have a coronation but I would say that WIll wont and the Govt and public will be keen on this as it is cheaper and more in fitting with the ideas of the 21st century than a big ceremony.
I don't think so but Charles can't really determine what William will do. I think William would decidedly have a coronation. And on the same scale as per tradition.
Quote from: sandy on July 31, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
I don't think so but Charles can't really determine what William will do. I think William would decidedly have a coronation. And on the same scale as per tradition.
Im not at all sure. He is not particularly formal.. he has not been brought up to be waited on hand and foot nor to delight in fancy rituals like his father...
Besdies, the mood of the public may well be in favour of no coronation, a simple investiture ceremony like many continental monarchies.. So even if he wants it, he might not get it.
and Charles himself is setting the trend in motion, to save money, of cutting back on the royals who do Duties.. and once that happens it is not likely the Govt and public will be happy with a reversal of that policy
@amabel-I agree. The government and the public might be in favor of a simple investiture rather than a coronation. AFAIK only the UK is the only constitutional monarchy in Europe that still has an actual coronation. William could still swear the same oaths but the CoE might have a reduced role. IMVHO might be a good compromise and be seen as a modernization. I'm not sure if we'd even see Charles' coronation be as bejeweled and extravagant in appearance as George VI's and QEII's. Traditions might need to be streamlined with an upcoming ceremony. There will be questions regarding the costs especially since security will be very expensive safeguarding those in WA and the public on the street.
Anyhow getting back to the main topic, thank you to all who have been participating in this discussion. :happy:
I think that the public would want the formal Coronation. They don't happen every day and the last one was 1953. From what I read, people in 1953 were glued to the TV watching and in the US there were exhibits in department store windows commemorating the coronation. I do think William will have the traditional one.
I think there is likely to be a Coronation for Charles. Who knows what will happen in another 20-25 years when William is likely to be crowned if Charles lives as long as his parents.
However, I think Charles's Coronation is likely to be pared down. In 1953 Britain still had colonial possessions and troops from these colonies marched in the processions through central London. That won't happen today. Foreign Royals will still be present of course, heirs and their spouses and Commonwealth leaders.
I think the ancient ritual and the crowning will remain, but IMO Charles is likely to want some kind of multi-Faith element to be added in the shape of Chief Rabbi, Mullah etc. Some of the very long anthems and prayers and hymns and other music might be cut. If Charles and Camilla are nearer eighty than seventy when they come to the Throne a very long ceremony would be immensely tiring.
Quote from: sandy on July 31, 2019, 08:51:46 PM
I think that the public would want the formal Coronation. They don't happen every day and the last one was 1953. From what I read, people in 1953 were glued to the TV watching and in the US there were exhibits in department store windows commemorating the coronation. I do think William will have the traditional one.
yeah that was a long long time ago. Charles will probably want a formal coronation but it wont be quite the same as the queen's..and William, I'd say he wotn have one..
Double post auto-merged: August 01, 2019, 06:16:01 AM
Quote from: TLLK on July 31, 2019, 07:27:00 PM
@amabel-I agree. The government and the public might be in favor of a simple investiture rather than a coronation. AFAIK only the UK is the only constitutional monarchy in Europe that still has an actual coronation. William could still swear the same oaths but the CoE might have a reduced role. IMVHO might be a good compromise and be seen as a modernization. I'm not sure if we'd even see Charles' coronation be as bejeweled and extravagant in appearance as George VI's and QEII's. Traditions might need to be streamlined with an upcoming ceremony. There will be questions regarding the costs especially since security will be very expensive safeguarding those in WA and the public on the street.
Anyhow getting back to the main topic, thank you to all who have been participating in this discussion. :happy:
yes I think Charles will still get a coronation but ti will not be as grand as th queens but I think by WIll's time it will not be a coronation..
I think William can't dictate the terms and not have the traditional Coronation. From what I read about what Charles wants, he does want the traditional coronation and was talking about being Defender of the Faiths.
Quote from: sandy on August 01, 2019, 10:49:28 AM
I think William can't dictate the terms and not have the traditional Coronation. From what I read about what Charles wants, he does want the traditional coronation and was talking about being Defender of the Faiths.
Sandy, the odds are that by tihe time Will is king, the public will be pushing for a simpler and cheaper alternative to a coronation. Even if Will does want it..it is vry possible that the public mood wil be against it..
QuoteI think William can't dictate the terms and not have the traditional Coronation.
No William can't but the British government can certainly "dictate the terms" by announcing that they won't be in favor of a full scale coronation especially if a simple enthronement ceremony similar to the ones on the Continent is a far less expensive event. IMO William would be in favor of an enthronement ceremony.
IMHO by the time Charles ascends to the throne, I believe that the event will be streamlined in an effort to reign in costs. While Charles might have an actual coronation I doubt it will be as grand and I agree with
@Curryong that there might be a mult-faith representation. I do believe we'll see the British government, the Commonwealth representatives, the foreign heirs-to-the-throne etc... IMO we won't see the BRF and the Peers of the Realm dressed as they were for QEII's coronation in coronets. This will likely be treated as a daytime event with dresscode being similar to what would be seen at a royal wedding. I could see Charles' sons in full uniform with their wives in daytime wear.
I believe that coaches would be limited to monarch/consort, the new Prince/Princess of Wales aka Cambridges and the Sussexes. Everyone else would arrive by car or luxury motor coach.
Quote from: TLLK on August 01, 2019, 02:55:42 PM
No William can't but the British government can certainly "dictate the terms" by announcing that they won't be in favor of a full scale coronation especially if a simple enthronement ceremony similar to the ones on the Continent is a far less expensive event. IMO William would be in favor of an enthronement ceremony.
IMHO by the time Charles ascends to the throne, I believe that the event will be streamlined in an effort to reign in costs. While Charles might have an actual coronation I doubt it will be as grand and I agree with @Curryong that there might be a mult-faith representation. I do believe we'll see the British government, the Commonwealth representatives, the foreign heirs-to-the-throne etc... IMO we won't see the BRF and the Peers of the Realm dressed as they were for QEII's coronation in coronets. This will likely be treated as a daytime event with dresscode being similar to what would be s
I certainly doubt that William would be saying he did not want a coronation and the Govt saying he must have one. I think that by the time he's King.. the public mood will be such that simplicity and less pageantry will be the order of the day.. And I think Wiliam will be in synch with that. Charles. well I think he will want a certan amount of pageantry and at present, the govt and public will problaby not be against the idea of a coronation albeit a simple one and nothng like the grander occasion that happened iwht the queen. but in another 20 odd years down the line..no Im pretty sure that the public will be like "Other monarchies just had a simple installation ceremony and that's fine for us..."
There were some things about her coronation that the Queen found uncomfortable, though I don't exactly know what they were (the coach is not a comfortable ride, I know) and she has no doubt shared these with Charles so that he can use them to advantage. It is a very religious event, and Charles will honor that. It is a complete change of life, and the church and the crown are interconnected. The Queen is very religious and hopefully he is, too. I agree it will not be as grand as the Queen's. I think Prince Philip will also have brought up the topic of modernizing and scaling down during the 60+ years that have elapsed. He was supposed to be on the Queen's Coronation Committee, but the old guard kept freezing his ideas out. He wanted a more modern coronation and they and Queen Elizabeth (the Queen Mother) wanted it to be as much like George VI's as possible. No doubt he has given his advice. Charles, IMO, has some modern ideas about things but also honors tradition. They are usually at least a year later to allow for mourning and planning and I wonder if that will continue. I know others won't agree with me, but I think he has ambivalent feelings about his change of role (though he knows, of course, that he has no choice), in addition to not wanting to see his mother leave this earth. As far as William is concerned, it may be that by the time his turn comes around he will have seen how much good can be accomplished by royal work and will want it all to carry on as more of a mission. What his coronation will be like I have no idea at all.
I hardly think that Charles would be put off by an uncomfortable coach ride. He is religious and has a "high" idea of the monarchy and ceremony.. so I tink he will want a coronation.. and tehre will be enough tradtitionalists around when he becomes King to go along with the idea of a coronation, rather than some kind of simple ceremony. But all the same, cost and security and "change of public mood" issues will be enough to make it a lot simpler than the queen's in the 1950s.
But William was borin in the 1980s.. and to a young and modern minded mother and has had a very different upbrining and has a different more modern minded character than his father. So I think that by the time he becomes King.. he will accept his role and do the best with it.. but I don't think he will ever quite see it as a sacred trust to the extent that his Grandmother did.. He might abdicate when he gets to a certain age.. like most European ROyals do now.. He would probaby be happy with an installation ceremony rather than a coronation and in all that he will be in touh with the public mood as it wil be, by then...
It will be interesting to see what the decide to do when the Crown is passed onto Prince Charles.
Quote from: Blue Clover on August 06, 2019, 01:03:31 AM
It will be interesting to see what the decide to do when the Crown is passed onto Prince Charles.
I wonder if the siblings will go on working... Probably Edward and Anne..but not tehir children and not Andrew?
Here is my take: Princess Anne will continue, and Prince Edward will take on the Duke of E's work and title. The one that is up in the air is Andrew - what exactly is it that he does now? His future is now questionable, too, because of the Epstein situation. And we don't yet know how that will shake down.
But getting back to the initial purpose of the thread, here we are discussing what the members of the RF can do to help the Queen in her elder years, and what they should NOT be doing is getting into trouble with the press and with the law. All current issues were avoidable, in my opinion. Andrew is really in deep trouble and should seek legal and PR advice and follow it, looking deeply into his past and taking ownership of his behavior instead of avoiding it. The press and trolls are out there now just looking for things the Sussex's do that can be brought in to the big story. They seem to be the media's dream come true, so they need to be more careful about what they do and how they go about it. Zara and all the Royal Family members should conduct themselves in a way that will keep them out of PR disasters. This would help the Queen instead of causing her stress and spoiling her holidays.
Very sensible. Andrew who is unfortunately the queen's favourite.. has proved a disaster... now in her old age. Minor faults however will be used by the press to add ot the "here's a scandal" situation. so yes the younger royals should be watching their step and doing their job well.. But H and Meghan seem to have a knack of causing a fuss every time they step out in public.. so that's not good.. though it pales beside the awfulness of Andrew.
QuoteHere is my take: Princess Anne will continue, and Prince Edward will take on the Duke of E's work and title. The one that is up in the air is Andrew - what exactly is it that he does now? His future is now questionable, too, because of the Epstein situation. And we don't yet know how that will shake down.
But getting back to the initial purpose of the thread, here we are discussing what the members of the RF can do to help the Queen in her elder years, and what they should NOT be doing is getting into trouble with the press and with the law. All current issues were avoidable, in my opinion. Andrew is really in deep trouble and should seek legal and PR advice and follow it, looking deeply into his past and taking ownership of his behavior instead of avoiding it. The press and trolls are out there now just looking for things the Sussex's do that can be brought in to the big story. They seem to be the media's dream come true, so they need to be more careful about what they do and how they go about it. Zara and all the Royal Family members should conduct themselves in a way that will keep them out of PR disasters. This would help the Queen instead of causing her stress and spoiling her holidays.
:goodpost:
The Queen partially spoiled her own holiday with the church drive with Prince Andrew. All RRs said the comment section of their usual Balmoral Sunday Church with him generated 100% negative comments, not only towards him, but the Queen's judgement...
Quote from: wannable on August 26, 2019, 12:45:48 PM
The Queen partially spoiled her own holiday with the church drive with Prince Andrew. All RRs said the comment section of their usual Balmoral Sunday Church with him generated 100% negative comments, not only towards him, but the Queen's judgement...
It wasn't a good idea, certainly. It really does make one feel that the queen is STILL ridiculously indulgent towards her "favourite son". and that does not look good at all.. and she really should realise that.
Quote from: amabel on August 26, 2019, 12:58:55 PM
It wasn't a good idea, certainly. It really does make one feel that the queen is STILL ridiculously indulgent towards her "favourite son". and that does not look good at all.. and she really should realise that.
I'm not sure they fully realize the trouble he is in, as I have posted before. But if HE hadn't used such bad judgment, she wouldn't be in the position of causing a problem by just enjoying being with her son.
Strangely this reminds me of Spain's Infanta Christina and her husband Inaki Undgarian's NOOS scandal and Queen Sofia's struggle to support her daughter/son-in-law and son Felipe and daughter-in-law Letizia. While Andrew's alleged involvement with underage girls is worse IMHO, there are some parallels IMO.
Quote from: TLLK on August 26, 2019, 05:06:28 PM
Strangely this reminds me of Spain's Infanta Christina and her husband Inaki Undgarian's NOOS scandal and Queen Sofia's struggle to support her daughter/son-in-law and son Felipe and daughter-in-law Letizia. While Andrew's alleged involvement with underage girls is worse IMHO, there are some parallels IMO.
And that did not have a happy ending.