Charles’ plan to get Camilla accepted as Queen FOILED after Diana doc

royalanthropologist · August 28, 2017, 05:14:38 AM

I doubt she would have been much better off without proper psychological support. Diana had many deep-seated emotional issues that would have reared their head in all her relationships. Indeed they did for many of her relationships (even the ones that were not romantic). She just could not deal with rejection on any level and went to pieces when it happened. The constant fear of being abandoned haunted her to the very end.

BTW, a proposal is not a command. It is a request and a lady always has the option of saying yes or no. I hear some people said no to Charles so it was not as if the sky would fall in if Diana said no. Diana was not some prisoner who had no options .

Besides, she knew exactly what the deal was and wrote about it in Morton. Charles did not really love her and she knew it. He loved and was in love with Camilla. She knew all that and even thought about cancelling the wedding. Later on she even confessed to George Michael that it was an arranged marriage. Diana knew what was going on but ignored it because she wanted her perfect ending.

What she wanted was to be married to the Prince of Wales (Charles just happened to be in that position at the time) and later become queen in a fairy tale romance that closely mimicked the Barbara Cartland stuff she had been reading. She never knew, understood, sympathized with or loved the man she married. Her recordings also show that she never liked or cared for him right from the beginning. The same feelings were reciprocated on Charles' side.

The reason why Charles was able to cope better with the failed marriage was that Camilla was there as an alternative. He was not being rejected but was the one rejecting. He was not being abandoned because Camilla would always be there for him as she had been since they met. That is why he was so casual about the whole thing when it broke down and was glad when the marriage ended. He could not care less that Diana had lovers.

It is also not true that Charles did not try. He tried to make the marriage work in his own way right up to 1984. At that point, he gave up because they could not even live together anymore without raising a stink. It was a constant battle with tantrums, fights, quarrels etc. He felt that he had made a terrible mistake marrying Diana and could not be bothered to put in any more half-hearted efforts.

People do learn to love one another after arranged marriages. If that was not the case, half the marriages in India and Pakistan would end but they do not. However, if you both have unrealistic expectations of one another divorce is the only sensible solution instead of raising a stink that engulfs virtually everybody around you.

I have always been on record that short of not proposing to Diana at all; Charles should have bargained for a clean divorce in 1986. That entire decade between 1986-1996 was a complete waste of their lives bickering over that which could never be mended.

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 07:20:11 AM

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If that was not the case, half the marriages in India and Pakistan would end but they do not.

Hah. They are not allowed to pick their own spouses but they'll be allowed to divorce? They also function with a huge honor concept so divorce would bring dishonor. Domestic abuse and adultery rates are high. Some of those women aren't allowed to work or study because it's time for marriage. Please don't glamorize arranged marriages. It's a stupid system and women suffer.
Women aren't allowed to move out of their homes till they marry because that would bring dishonor or shame. They are molded into this subservient wife that caters to the guy and his family. It's all very old fashioned.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 07:57:14 AM

There are different sorts of arranged marriages. Up to the 20th C most marriages in Europe were "arranged" to some extent... in that there were not thtat many options, people married wthin their class and usually their locality.. so choice was limited.. and people usualy married to suit their families as much as themselves. It didn't mean that they were forced into it, and divorce wasn't an option, usually but the marriages worked out. Some didn't, but usually people had realisitic expectations and didn't expect "Big romantic love" but grew to love each other. Not all were successful, some were very unhappy - but there were probably more happy marriages than now. Among the British upper classes - where we do know a bit about tehm as they are "recorded"...some marriages worked out OK, some were very happy and some were just arrangements.. where the couple produced children and then usually took lovers on the side.
Diana's marriage wasn't "an arranged one".. She and Charles dated, they had a chance to get to know each other and both knew that it was a partnership that was not supposed to end in divorce.. They weren't forced to marry and while it was expected tat even if it didn't work out they weren't supposed to get a divorce, she was hardly ill treated or forced to lead a narrow life. She had plenty of opportunties for interesting work as Princess.. She had a wider life than she would have had as an ordinary aristocrat and if she had wanted to get more education, there was nothing to stop her doing so.
and the RF clearly were willing to turn a blind eye and protect her if she took a lover who made her happier than Charles, provided she was loyal to C and to the RF and acted politely in private and in public. So if it wa an arranged marriage, it was one that had a reasonable chance of being hapy, and if it didn't become "happy", it could have been comfortable if Diana had accepted the limitations.

royalanthropologist · August 28, 2017, 09:18:24 AM

Very true. I even know people from Pakistan and India who started off with an arranged marriage but learned to love their spouse. It is not impossible. This idea of a big romance was all in Diana's head. I actually don't believe she actually believed in it. Being Princess of Wales is not some silly romantic tale. It is serious business. You are in effect going to be central to a large extended powerful family in addition to being a representative of a nation.

It is not about everlasting romantic love and a husband who caters for you every whim. Diana could not hack it on those terms in the end but was also afraid of losing all the perks that the position gave her. That is the real reason she could not bear a divorce or Charles remarrying. Her biggest worry was Charles marrying Camilla and being happy whilst she was abandoned or ignored. Hence the post-divorce media offensives.

As Camilla has shown, it is possible to remain married to Charles successfully...warts and all. He is not an impossible man to be married to. He is capable of being considerate and caring to his wife. What he cannot abide is insolence, impertinence or his position being challenged. Diana did exactly those things and he said goodbye.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 10:24:36 AM

wel i don't know how you can say that the idea of a big romance was in Diana's head and also that she didn't beleive in it.
I think that she DID believe in it. Charles spoke of marriage earlier and said that since his marriage had to last 50 years, it was a partnership, a friendship, as muich and more than a romantic love affair. But that's true of all marriages. You need solid bedrock because the romance will fade.
Diana was young and naïve and DID believe that she was in love with Charles and that at least at first, she though that he loved her and that they would live happily ever after.
And I think he was willing to be in love with her. He was attracted.. she seemed like a nice simple innocent girl, and that she had enough nous to learn the duties of a princess, and was willing to put up iwht the limitattions. I tihnk he was worried at times that she was too young and that perhaps she DIDNT really understand the role that well.. and that perhaps she was too young to be married.
So he had misgivings, and I think she too began to have some, during their engagement.. I think she grew afraid that he cared more for Camilla than she had first realised.
And of course Diana was annoyed and upset that if Charles split with her and esp if he remarried, she would not be queen or Princess of Wales and of course she felt that she had made a big effort to do the job well and should not be deprived of it. However she was the one who had pushed things to the point where a divorce was probably the only option.
I think that while I'm glad that Charles and Camilla have a happy comfortable marriage, its a great pity that Diana did not decide to overlook her husband's mistress, keep her job and position and quietly find a discreet lover. Its not as easy as it might have been 100 years ago, for a wife to have a long standing quiet affair.. but if she had found someone who was happy with her, who was perhaps divorced, the RF would have tired to ensure that she was protected from gossip.. and she would IMO have been a good Queen in due course.
I think that because Di didn't always think ahead, she gave way to impulses to hit out at Chalres and to try and break with the RF, and then realised that it was a scary place, outside the RF.. and feared the divorce.
But I believe that in spite of Charles's feelings for Camilla, he was wiling to make hs marriage work, to be faithful and he picked a girl who was sutiable and alos someone whom he thougt he could love..and who shared his interests.
But Diana was fragile, she was easily upset and once married, I think she realised how trapped she was.. and acted up.. and she grew ill and irrational with her bulimia and depression. And Charles found it hard to grow into love with her, when she was so erratic. They did both try, I think that she tried to win his love sexually but was afraid that she didn't have the experience that his past mistresses had, and she tried to learn to like riding etc, to please him.. and she worked hard at being good at the job side of their life, so as to be admired for her hard work and skill at charming the public. But she din't really like the country life.. and it was all a massive strain for botht of them, trying to fit into the ways of someone else who was so different.

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 11:48:07 AM

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Very true. I even know people from Pakistan and India who started off with an arranged marriage but learned to love their spouse.

No they don't. They learn to tolerate each other. Most of those people you know were probably blind dates. They still call it an arranged marriage but they are vert westernized.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 12:04:14 PM

how on earth do you know wehther they "tolerate" or love each other? The idea behind an arranged marriage is that love grows, usually after marriage. It may not always happen but that is the idea of it. Just as in upper class "semi arranged marriages" in say the 19th C, the ideal was that a married couple might not fall In love or might nto be too happy together but that they had a loyalty to each other, formed a parternship, rather than a "love marriage"..

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 01:57:24 PM

Lots of things went on in the 19th C that don't go on today for a reason. How come the Western world can progress and move forward but india and Pakistan are supposed to stay in the 19th century and keep on having arranged marriages? Why not bring it back in England too? It's not a choice based decision. They eother marry when their parents want them too or have to face the consequences of their actions for going against societal norms.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 01:59:30 PM

Quote from: tiaras on August 28, 2017, 01:57:24 PM
Lots of things went on in the 19th C that don't go in today for a reason. How come the Western world can progress and move forward but india and Pakistan are supposed to stay in the 19th century and keep on having arranged marriages? Why not bring it back in England too?

What on earth do you mean? Noone's dictating whether India etc SHOULD or should nto have arranged marriages.. its up to them. I'm just discussing the idea that Charles and Diana had an arranged marriage.. IMO they didn't.

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 02:00:59 PM

People in these marriages don't have a choice. It's s not up to them.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 02:23:17 PM

Quote from: tiaras on August 28, 2017, 02:00:59 PM
People in these marriages don't have a choice. It's s not up to them.

well its nothing to do with Diana and Charles marriage.

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 02:35:18 PM

Yes it is. If Charles parents said it's about time to marry and have heirs and Diana's parents wanted their daughter to be princess of Wales and people were manipulated then it was semi arranged. Leading people to believe they chose this marriage when indeed they didnt.

FanDianaFancy · August 28, 2017, 03:03:49 PM

I-yi-I :thumbsdown:

amabel · August 28, 2017, 03:06:31 PM

Quote from: tiaras on August 28, 2017, 02:35:18 PM
Yes it is. If Charles parents said it's about time to marry and have heirs and Diana's parents wanted their daughter to be princess of Wales and people were manipulated then it was semi arranged. Leading people to believe they chose this marriage when indeed they didnt.

they did choose the marriage. They both wanted to get married, They dated, they decided to marry each other
And you were talking about arranged marraiges in india etc. I don't have a strong opinion on it, but I don't think that this thread is really the place to discuss it...

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 03:09:55 PM

@royalanthropologist brought it up and I responded.

amabel · August 28, 2017, 03:45:17 PM

OK but it is a seaparte issue. Diana and Charles IMO couldn't be said to have an "arranged marriage". and as I've said, there are degrees of "arranging" a marriage. in the 19th C upper class people and royals did usually marry with some parental "help", the whole point of the Social Season was to create a climate where upper class people could meet and have some choice.. but still usually the parents were expected to consent. If they didnt', a couple could stil marry but if their parents weren't keen on the suitor, they could refuse to allow them money or a house or whatever and make it moere difficult.
Chlares was restrticed in whom he could marry, but he still had a fair degree of choice. And he could have delayed his marriage longer but he was already over 30 and it was really time that he got settled so there were lmiits on how much more time he could devote to seeking a wife..
Diana wanted to get married but she was hardly "manipulated" into marrying charles.. she wanted to marry him...

sandy · August 28, 2017, 03:54:19 PM

32 is not really that old, maybe it was considered old back then. Theoretically Charles could have found a much younger bride down the road (like Prince Albert did). Diana thought Charles loved her and did not know all about Charles' expectations. When she saw the cufflinks on the honeymoon from Camilla she realized what was in store for her. Charles forgot or did not want to clue her in before the wedding.

Double post auto-merged: August 28, 2017, 03:55:37 PM

Quote from: tiaras on August 28, 2017, 02:35:18 PM
Yes it is. If Charles parents said it's about time to marry and have heirs and Diana's parents wanted their daughter to be princess of Wales and people were manipulated then it was semi arranged. Leading people to believe they chose this marriage when indeed they didnt.

It was not an arranged marriage. But suppose it had been and contracts were signed and it was set up before their pre engagement meetings, then a date was formally set for the engagement and so on. It did not give Charles carte blanche to cheat on his wife.

Double post auto-merged: August 28, 2017, 03:59:49 PM

Quote from: amabel on August 28, 2017, 10:24:36 AM
wel i don't know how you can say that the idea of a big romance was in Diana's head and also that she didn't beleive in it.
I think that she DID believe in it. Charles spoke of marriage earlier and said that since his marriage had to last 50 years, it was a partnership, a friendship, as muich and more than a romantic love affair. But that's true of all marriages. You need solid bedrock because the romance will fade.
Diana was young and naïve and DID believe that she was in love with Charles and that at least at first, she though that he loved her and that they would live happily ever after.
And I think he was willing to be in love with her. He was attracted.. she seemed like a nice simple innocent girl, and that she had enough nous to learn the duties of a princess, and was willing to put up iwht the limitattions. I tihnk he was worried at times that she was too young and that perhaps she DIDNT really understand the role that well.. and that perhaps she was too young to be married.
So he had misgivings, and I think she too began to have some, during their engagement.. I think she grew afraid that he cared more for Camilla than she had first realised.
And of course Diana was annoyed and upset that if Charles split with her and esp if he remarried, she would not be queen or Princess of Wales and of course she felt that she had made a big effort to do the job well and should not be deprived of it. However she was the one who had pushed things to the point where a divorce was probably the only option.
I think that while I'm glad that Charles and Camilla have a happy comfortable marriage, its a great pity that Diana did not decide to overlook her husband's mistress, keep her job and position and quietly find a discreet lover. Its not as easy as it might have been 100 years ago, for a wife to have a long standing quiet affair.. but if she had found someone who was happy with her, who was perhaps divorced, the RF would have tired to ensure that she was protected from gossip.. and she would IMO have been a good Queen in due course.
I think that because Di didn't always think ahead, she gave way to impulses to hit out at Chalres and to try and break with the RF, and then realised that it was a scary place, outside the RF.. and feared the divorce.
But I believe that in spite of Charles's feelings for Camilla, he was wiling to make hs marriage work, to be faithful and he picked a girl who was sutiable and alos someone whom he thougt he could love..and who shared his interests.
But Diana was fragile, she was easily upset and once married, I think she realised how trapped she was.. and acted up.. and she grew ill and irrational with her bulimia and depression. And Charles found it hard to grow into love with her, when she was so erratic. They did both try, I think that she tried to win his love sexually but was afraid that she didn't have the experience that his past mistresses had, and she tried to learn to like riding etc, to please him.. and she worked hard at being good at the job side of their life, so as to be admired for her hard work and skill at charming the public. But she din't really like the country life.. and it was all a massive strain for botht of them, trying to fit into the ways of someone else who was so different.

Charles pushed things to the point by keeping in contact with his mistress. Diana did not live in a vacuum and just decided she'd make things difficult. Charles is a his way or the highway kind of person and Diana put up with the marriage for ten years. She was also beset by Charles increasing resentment of her which he did not bother hiding and his friends leaking stories. Camilla was throwing her weigh around as well.

Maybe Diana was old fashioned but she wanted a real marriage and not have discreet affairs that really had no future for her. Suppose she fell madly in love with a lover and he with her and they wanted to marry and have children. She most likely could not because if she decided to up and leave Charles she'd risk losing custody of their children.

Charles did show his contempt for her and in public, with put downs. It is bordering on masochism for a wife to put up with that. Charles would give her cheap gifts and give the mistress expensive jewelry. Who needs that rubbish from him

Double post auto-merged: August 28, 2017, 04:02:17 PM

Quote from: royalanthropologist on August 28, 2017, 09:18:24 AM
Very true. I even know people from Pakistan and India who started off with an arranged marriage but learned to love their spouse. It is not impossible. This idea of a big romance was all in Diana's head. I actually don't believe she actually believed in it. Being Princess of Wales is not some silly romantic tale. It is serious business. You are in effect going to be central to a large extended powerful family in addition to being a representative of a nation.

It is not about everlasting romantic love and a husband who caters for you every whim. Diana could not hack it on those terms in the end but was also afraid of losing all the perks that the position gave her. That is the real reason she could not bear a divorce or Charles remarrying. Her biggest worry was Charles marrying Camilla and being happy whilst she was abandoned or ignored. Hence the post-divorce media offensives.

As Camilla has shown, it is possible to remain married to Charles successfully...warts and all. He is not an impossible man to be married to. He is capable of being considerate and caring to his wife. What he cannot abide is insolence, impertinence or his position being challenged. Diana did exactly those things and he said goodbye.

Charles did not spell out the terms. That was the issue. If he wanted her to tolerate his mistress and not expect love from him, he should have told her before any engagement happened.

I don't think it "insolent" for a woman to challenge a man for keeping another woman on the side. He was disrespectful to Diana from the get go. And a woman is not inferior no matter what titles the husband has and deserves respect

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 05:06:26 PM

Contracts aren't signed for an arranged marriage. They weren't signed in 19 th century and they aren't being singed now in those countries where it is still prevalent.

It's not surprising there's no love in an arranged marriage because there never is.

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the 19th C upper class people and royals did usually marry with some parental "help", the whole point of the Social Season was to create a climate where upper class people could meet and have some choice.. but still usually the parents were expected to consent. If they didnt', a couple could stil marry but if their parents weren't keen on the suitor, they could refuse to allow them money or a house or whatever and make it moere difficult.

How lovely so in 19th century England women had more rights than the women in countries where this is still going on today.

sandy · August 28, 2017, 05:14:47 PM

There would have to be contract today especially in the royal family (if this sort of thing is practiced in future) or families of ultra rich people. It would be something that would require an attorney to draw up papers and all agree to terms. They just could not up and decide it's an arranged marriage. Terms would need to be spelled out. Sometimes marriages are arranged before the parties come "of age" and a date is set in advance. In the royal family if they still had this sort of thing a contract would be a "must." In George IV's case, there was a contract and the bride's family included a dowry agreed upon ahead of time (which came in handy since George as Prince of Wales was a spendthrift who had to pay off debts).

amabel · August 28, 2017, 07:07:57 PM

Quote from: tiaras on August 28, 2017, 05:06:26 PM
Contracts aren't signed for an arranged marriage. They weren't signed in 19 th century and they aren't being singed now in those countries where it is still prevalent.

It's not surprising there's no love in an arranged marriage because there never is. How lovely so in 19th century England women had more rights than the women in countries where this is still going on today.

It is simply your opinion that there is no love in arranged marriages. Many people would say different. And if you want to discuss them as part of a foregin culture, why not do it on the politics threads?

tiaras · August 28, 2017, 08:20:57 PM

No I have experience with that system, you don't, you're speaking about arranged marriages as an outsider. You're glamorizing something that isn't healthy and confusing it with blind dates and period dramas. My response was to @royalanthropologist if the topic irks you so don't respond simple.

amabel · August 30, 2017, 06:28:05 AM

I'm not glamorising it at all, I said I don't have a strong opinion about It. But I have heard of people whom it worked for, and others whom it didn't work for. As I've said, arranged marriages in another culture aren't the same as what happened with Charles and Di, or even what happened in say 19th C Britain... If you do have strong feelings about it, in India and Pakistan, I would say it is better discussed on the politics threads.

tiaras · August 31, 2017, 03:44:51 AM

It's more than 60% of the world rather than just those two countries.
Diana was 19, there was no way she wasn't coaxed into that situation by some family members. Charles was 32 he wanted a trophy wife and was also imo coaxed into marriage as it was 'time'. I don't believe external forces didn't play a part in that union.

sandy · August 31, 2017, 01:22:12 PM

Diana's grandmother was pushing for the marriage. Her father was delighted when Charles phoned him and told him Diana accepted his proposal of marriage. Frances had misgivings but kept them to herself. I think Diana loved Charles and was not some cold and calculating person but she had little experience and if she had had a steady boyfriend previously she might have noticed more red flags than she did with Charles. Charles needed heirs and he did not want his brother to be the next in line (he has been quoted as making disparaging comments about his brothers and there is no love lost between him and Andrew) so he married Diana and I believe had no intention of stopping seeing Camilla. But Charles knew the score and knew he did not love Diana so I blame him the most. He was the one who decided to court Diana nobody could possibly "make him" unless he had some willingness himself.

Trudie · August 31, 2017, 03:37:19 PM

I agree totally with Sandy. Just yesterday I was watching a bit of their wedding the look on Charles face going from Buckingham Palace to the Abbey and walking the aisle he look most unhappy while Diana on the other hand had that adoring look of love for Charles especially once she joined him at the altar. Looking back at Princess Anne and The Queens weddings both bride and groom looked extremely happy smiling and waving at the crowds going to the Abbey but Charles looked like he was heading toward the tower,