Duch_Luver_4ever Digest #1

[sandy]

All I can say about Anna Wallace: CLEVER GIRL!!!!

The man was dithering and behaving in a very cowardly way and she was wise to give him a miss.

WELL SAID!
Double post auto-merged: June 04, 2017, 10:45:32 PM

I have read, though i can't remember where, that there were 2 incidnets.  once Anna stormed off because Charles had danced a few dances with Camilla, and alos with other lady guests and that that was "proper party behaviour".. (so posslbly that is the QM's birthday party - where it would be good form for charles to mingle with most of the guests)
presumably she had made up with him afterwards because another incident occurred some time later, that he DID spend more time with  Cam than with her..and she finished their relationship.   However I believe she was still friends with him later, as I have read that at one party much later on, where Diana had been dancing a lot with some young man, charles had spent the evening talking to Anna.
But I think that Anna was someone wo was likely to remain as a girlfriend, rather than a wife...and I'm sure she was aware that Charles had been in an affair with Camilla and was still very close to her..

Anna moved on I think she had at least two husbands. Charles was said to be besotted with Anna. I think Camilla may have perceived her as a threat.

IF he was besotted or 'passionate' with her, Charles would NOT have spent the night dancing with Camilla. From which i read he'd have married her if not for this 'Camilla episode'... As far as he was concerned she was marriage material.

Maybe she did not want to marry him. Charles was "besotted" with other ladies and it seemed he would actually have married Davina Sheffield except for the fact that her ex showed up and said they had lived together. She eventually married someone else, happily.

Charles appears to have been very confused and conflicted. I think he was the sort who wanted to have it all.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Yes Anna was a clever girl, @royalanthropologist i think she knew what was what, didnt need an issue of Private Eye to figure it out. She struck me as not suffering any fools, and would speak her mind. I find it interesting the think about the idea that Charles feelings for her, plus getting dropped by her, combined with her looks and willful nature, is it any wonder that Diana would catch his eye at the De Passe's BBQ?

As for the Regans and Charles, I read an article today that lined up with what @TLLK said about the tabloids and such being a common concern and helped in their discretion. I remember when Nancy died recently seeing the pic in the Oval Office I believe of the four of them, and thinking back when that picture was taken if youd have told me Charles would be the last one alive, id have told you that was impossible... :no:

[amabel]

well if Anna had the brains of a mouse, she would have known what every deb knew, that Camilla was a special friend of Charles.  and if she could figure it out, why did Diana need six months to do so....
I don't believe that Charles would have married her, he was passionate about her for a time, but he was as he said, someone who fell in love easily, and if he had had serious intentions towards her he would not have been caught making love to her outdoors in balmoral.  He would have been more careful of her reputation.  So she wasn't really losing anything by wlaking out...
Double post auto-merged: June 05, 2017, 07:16:34 PM

How the Reagans could be so discreet

I believe that the Reagans could have been discreet because they understood what it was like to have the press intruding upon their personal lives. They'd been the subject of tabloid intrusion themselves. :shrug:

Seems they weren't very discreet if they have allowed the letters to become public property, while Charles is still alive...

[sandy]

Anna was more sophisticated than Diana. She was in her twenties and had experience and was not a teenager like Diana was.  Anna found out about Camilla because Camilla was more obvious than she was with Diana. Diana was introduced to her and she was a housewife with a husband and two small children and acted like the "mentor" who would "help" Lady Diana. Camilla made her interest in Charles quite clear in front of Anna. Charles may well have married Anna but it will never be known. The fact is Anna walked out on him.

Charles probably sweet talked Diana and Diana actually got a proposal from Charles and she thought it meant Charles loved her. She was not that cynical.

I would not say "every" deb knew about Camilla. Diana never was a "deb" and did not have a coming out party and was a lot younger than Charles.

[royalanthropologist]

I think most people agree that Diana could be incredibly naive sometimes. Her life experiences seem almost childish when you compare her with 20-year olds of today. She was caught between the world of knowing aristocratic girls who had done the deb thing and knew the score on one hand; and the modern teenager who liked pop. The royal family expected someone who was well-versed in palace intrigue and would play along with every thing that they required.

[sandy]

If Charles had say waited another 5 years he probably would have found the 'inexperienced girl' he would need to marry would be about 20 years younger.

[amabel]

I think most people agree that Diana could be incredibly naive sometimes. Her life experiences seem almost childish when you compare her with 20-year olds of today. She was caught between the world of knowing aristocratic girls who had done the deb thing and knew the score on one hand; and the modern teenager who liked pop. The royal family expected someone who was well-versed in palace intrigue and would play along with every thing that they required.

No they weren't.  They expected a  ladylike sensible  girl who knew about aristociratic and royal social life and who would  if necessary be able to handle any marital problems in a discreet way.   And IMO Diana knew perfectly well about Camila and it did not bother her.  Until she began to fear that Charles would never love her as much as he had done with Camilla and she found the whole royal life thing much more stressful than she expected.
THe RF seem to have genuinely like Diana at first and believed that she was charming, pretty, sweet, and able to handle the press attention.  She had done very well during her courtship. She seemed to enjoy the country and to want to be married and have a family, and to love Charles.  Theres no evidence that they believed she would have to handle her husband having an affair, or that she was too young to compete with an experienced older woman...
So I think they were as bewildered as Charles when Diana seemed to be unhappy and worked up during the Balmoral honeymoon bit, when she seemed to be unable to cope with the rituals of being part of the house party, the shooting, the long weeks of doing nothing but watching the men shooting and looking out at the rain.

[Curryong]

Amabel, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree about exactly what Diana knew about Camilla and how au fait she was with Society gossip at the time. I think she knew that Camilla had been a longterm mistress but she didn't know the degree of it or how much Charles was still in thrall to C.

However, what I feel that you are really discounting is the fact that by the time the Balmoral portion of the honeymoon came around Diana was in the early stages of pregnancy.

Pregnancy can do very funny things to people. I've described in a previous post how my elder daughter was during her first pregnancy and it wasn't pretty! I've known people become weeping hormonal messes, become silly and irrational and irritable when they are in those early weeks. We don't all escape coming motherhood unscathed and bouncing with health.

And Diana was not just hormonal and weepy but had around her a set of people who ranged from mildly sympathetic to uninterested and detached. They were people with whom she had little in common and whom in most cases she scarcely knew.

I loved my own kindly mother in law, but I certainly wouldn't have liked to have spent half my first pregnancy (as Diana did at BP until the KP apartment was finished) in the close proximity of my inlaws! And I wasn't just twenty and learning to cope with all the other changes in my life that had come about in the last twelve months, either! Much less was I with a husband whom I wasn't certain loved me.

[sandy]

I agree Curryong.  Camilla was presented as a "friend" to Charles who was married to one of Charles own good friends and she had small children. She was presented as an "advisor."

I agree about Balmoral and how could Diana enjoy anything when she felt ill from morning sickness.
Double post auto-merged: June 06, 2017, 01:12:30 PM

I think most people agree that Diana could be incredibly naive sometimes. Her life experiences seem almost childish when you compare her with 20-year olds of today. She was caught between the world of knowing aristocratic girls who had done the deb thing and knew the score on one hand; and the modern teenager who liked pop. The royal family expected someone who was well-versed in palace intrigue and would play along with every thing that they required.

No they weren't.  They expected a  ladylike sensible  girl who knew about aristociratic and royal social life and who would  if necessary be able to handle any marital problems in a discreet way.   And IMO Diana knew perfectly well about Camila and it did not bother her.  Until she began to fear that Charles would never love her as much as he had done with Camilla and she found the whole royal life thing much more stressful than she expected.
THe RF seem to have genuinely like Diana at first and believed that she was charming, pretty, sweet, and able to handle the press attention.  She had done very well during her courtship. She seemed to enjoy the country and to want to be married and have a family, and to love Charles.  Theres no evidence that they believed she would have to handle her husband having an affair, or that she was too young to compete with an experienced older woman...
So I think they were as bewildered as Charles when Diana seemed to be unhappy and worked up during the Balmoral honeymoon bit, when she seemed to be unable to cope with the rituals of being part of the house party, the shooting, the long weeks of doing nothing but watching the men shooting and looking out at the rain.

Not everybody pores over the society pages. And the society pages would not spell out that Charles and Camilla were lovers and she was cheating on her husband. That would have been a no no. And it would have led to a divorce of the PBs.

Diana reasonably thought Charles loved her which is why he asked her to marry him. She only saw the hold Camilla had after the ceremony when those cufflinks emerged. And Charles would call her up from his honeymoon with Diana, according to Stephen Barry.

Obviously Diana did not want a marriage where the husband cheated. And no it is not the "aristocratic" way since not all of them cheat.

As I had said before, Diana had a difficult pregnancy with William and she was sick all the time. How could she go frolicking out going stalking. She would be near no bathroom for one thing, she was throwing up. Diana was not pregnant or had morning sickness when she went out to the country with Charles during their courtship. Different scenarios. Diana also went to Balmoral every year until the separation.

[amabel]

Amabel, I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree about exactly what Diana knew about Camilla and how au fait she was with Society gossip at the time. I think she knew that Camilla had been a longterm mistress but she didn't know the degree of it or how much Charles was still in thrall to C.

However, what I feel that you are really discounting is the fact that by the time the Balmoral portion of the honeymoon came around Diana was in the early stages of pregnancy.

Pregnancy can do very funny things to people. I've described in a previous post how my elder daughter was during her first pregnancy and it wasn't pretty! I've known people become weeping hormonal messes, become silly and irrational and irritable when they are in those early weeks. We don't all escape coming motherhood unscathed and bouncing with health.



I

well if she knew Cam had been a  long term mistress, then surely she msut have been wary of dating and marrying Charles.  If she knew the affair had been on and off for some years, then surely she would have felt that "Camilla must be very special to Charles and is he ever going to deeply love anyone else?" and not gone out iwht a man who was already emotionally committed to another woman? If she knew Cam was a long term mistress, then she DID know there was a deep relationship, and that it was problaby never going to go away completely..
And as for the pregnancy being the cuase of her problems at balmoral I don't think so.  it didn't help I suppose (though she could only have ben a few weeks pregnant when she was there)but she was bulimic and depressed not "ill with pregnancy blues".  Sorry but IMO that's very obvious.  Charles and the RF I think hoepd that her bad moods etc were cuased by the pregnancy, but it was much more than that. She disliked Balmoral later on, hated it and she wasn't pregnant all the time she was there.  She had bulimia, that is nothing to do with pregnancy but IS to do with mental stress manifesting itself in an eating disorder.  Sorry But I think you must know that..
If it was just her pregnancy, she would not have gone on disliking Balmoral in later years.
And yes, she had to live in their old apartment because the new one wasn't ready and she had to hang around with the RF nad her mother in law.  But that's Royal life.  esp at that time, they spent a lot of leisure time together in the autumn and Christmas.. and the queen was very formal and didn't have  much time for anyone who wasn't trying to fit in.   but again, that's royal life at the time.  Now I think the queen is more easy going, and doesn't insist on the family all gathering.. but I'm sure that the Balmoral house parties are still very formal..
If Diana didn't like it, she could have said no to Charles.  If she didn't know what it would be like, well really, she was a courtier's daughter.  Her grandmother was a close friend of the QM, are we really to believe that she knew nothing of what "the royals at leisure" are like?

[sandy]

I think perhaps she thought that she was an "ex" not a "long term mistress." It was an open secret among Charles and his pals. Diana was not in his circle, she was a lot younger and did not meet his friends until she started dating him. Diana at 19 assumed Charles was in love with her (he did have other exes besides Camilla) and the marriage proposal to her equated love. Diana saw Camilla as special in the sense that she was said to "vet" and "approve" Charles girlfriends or disapprove of them. At the time of the wedding this was the image of Camilla to the media. In a TV movie in 1981 (it's on Youtube), Camilla and Andrew are seen as friends of Diana and Charles no hint of Camilla being an "ex."

Diana said she had morning sickness. Why is this not believed? She had the stress also and bulimia symptoms. Diana went back to Balmoral year after year and never confessed after the first year there that she "hated it." She did confess that the proximity to Camilla's home from Highgrove was disturbing. She never said oh I hated Balmoral every year I went there. She just didn't.

If Charles did not love Diana and preferred Camilla then he should not have proposed to her. I think it a cop out when he thought he could "fall in love with her" after they married. Why is she blamed for accepting and he's not for proposing to her?

[dianab]

1. Her father was a courtier in 1950s! She wasnt raised in that 'enviromment'. (So much Charles just met her when she was living far away from Sandringham) He gave his children a very spoiled and relaxed upbringing.

2. Diana was never close to Ruth Fermoy who was aware that her granddaughter wouldnt adapt or like the Windsor lifestyle. The advise is known she gave Diana, says how she knew that Diana had no clue the lifestyle she was getting into when marrying into the Windsors.

And Diana said as the treatment changed ater she got married. One thing was she being well treated as a guest. Other totally different is the treatment she received as a guest. The ex and current husband of Anne sure agree/d with Diana, according to several reports. Kate is another in-law who has a tough time in Balmoral.

[sandy]

Fermoy and the Queen Mum promoted the match early on. Fermoy even was chaperone to Charles and Diana on their first date. Fermoy was a true royalist and even testified against her daughter Frances so her grandchildren would grow up next door to Sandringham.  I think the Spencers held back any misgivings about the match. Her mother said she did but her father was exuberant about Diana marrying the Prince of Wales. It seemed to be the high point of his life.

[Curryong]

I agree with Dianab on this one. It wasn't as if Diana's parents were active courtiers, ie her mother a lady in waiting for example. Johnny Spencer had been an equerry to the Queen for a brief period as a young man. However equerries, especially if they are new to the job, are pretty low down on the Court totem pole really. Even then, he went on tour overseas with the Queen, missed his fiancée Frances so much that the Queen tolerantly gave him leave to fly home, so it wasn't as if he was daily at Court. During Diana's childhood Johnny led a very quiet life in Norfolk, moping a bit after Frances left. His 'courtier' days were long behind him.

Yes, Ruth Fermoy was a great friend of the Queen Mother and one of her ladies in waiting. Yes, she may have been there as a sort of chaperone on one of those first dates,(to a concert) although the days of chaperonage were well and truly over by 1980.

However, it's debatable how close Ruth really was to her grandchildren. Also, being ensconced in the Queen Mother's circle in one of her cosy homes isn't the sort of life that Diana was expected to live. The advice her grandmother imparted, the very words Ruth used, that 'the Royal Family's 'sense of humour' and 'lifestyle' were different, and 'might not suit her'  show that she knew Diana had very little comprehension of how the BRF lived in private. And I don't think that either the Queen Mother or Lady Fermoy orchestrated the union.

I also think that while Earl Spencer was quite delighted with the match (he was an ebullient sort of character anyway when he was in good health) I think he was far from being a Boleyn or de Wydeville. And I do think that once Diana was part of the family and no longer a guest the very detached way the royals behave with each other got to her. According to much of what I've read they go their separate ways at Balmoral and do their own thing, and then meet up for tea or lunch, (if they're not too far away on the estate) and then a formal dinner. That would take some getting used to if you came from a London flat with your girlfriends around you, and you were used to going out in the evenings to restaurants and the cinema, laughing and joking and having a good time like most twenty year olds.

[amabel]

so Did Lady F say anything to Diana about the courtship with Charles? I agree I don't think that the "grannies promoted the match".  They may have thought it was a nice idea, and I'm damn sure that Lady Fermoy didn't dislike it..
but I don't think they did anything much other than smile on it and leave it to the young people to work out,.

but if we assume she  DID say anything to Diana, surely she would have said "ok I'm glad you had a date or 2 with Charles, because he's a nice fellow and its good that you have been seen as one of his dates, but I don't think that you are up to fitting into royal life, or being his Princess.  You dotnt know anything about court life, you don't know anything much except those barb Cartlands you keep reading.. if the relationship is serious and you DO want to marry hm, there are things you'll need to learn."
If she did this and Diana didn't listen well some of it is on Diana, that she didn't try to learn more about her husband's family and their ways.
None of it is rocket science.. if Diana DID want to marry Charles, and I think she did, very much, why not read up at least a few magazine artilces or books about the RF that would have given her some idea what the court life is like and about royal history?

[Curryong]

^ As far as I know Ruth Fermoy only said to Diana what I quoted. Quite subtle and not likely to put anyone off. However, reading about Royal life and actually living it are two very different things, aren't they? I'm not sure that there were articles in magazines in those days that spoke any home truths about the detached lifestyle each Royal lived. I remember reading a couple of articles about how some of the BRF don't see each other for months, how some are jealous of the amount of publicity others get, how the Queen and members of her family sometimes communicate by notes even when they are in the same house.

However, I think these articles came out in the last couple of decades, not in the late 1970's, and even if she had read them would Diana have necessarily believed it? No biography of Charles pre 1980 that I ever read in magazines ever emphasised that he was rather a loner who enjoyed his own company, or that members of the family were left to their own devices at Balmoral. It was very much fluffy stuff about the royals as far as I can remember. Stuff about the Snowdens and about Anne being rather gruff and sulky on occasions, certainly, but as far as Charles was concerned, a lot of it was Action Man stuff and him being kissed by models on Aussie beaches.

[amabel]

I agree that reaiding about something and living it are 2 differnet things. However a bit of basic knowledge would not have gone amiss and Diana IMO clearly did not have that.  according to the way she portrayed herself she was like some childlike innocent who knew nothing about anything.. and who found it all a big shock and surprise when she married Charles. But IMO that's on her.  She could have read stuff about Charles, I think that there were bios and articles which certainly portrayed him as parlty action man but also a seirous rather lonerish young man who was deeply committed to his work and a worrier about "doing good" for his country.
and she refused, when newly engaged or married to read about previous Princesses of Wales and how they had hanlded the job, so IMO she didn't know things because she did not really want to try and learn.
No more than immaturity perhaps but it did'n't bode well that even when married to Charles she did'nt seem to want to learn. 
And unlike most of us, she had friends and family who were friends of the RF, she must have heard gossip about what Royal life was "really like", about the affair with Camilla, about problaby how stiff and formal the RF were In private as well as public.

[Curryong]

Diana's dearest friends were young women much like herself. Others had brief acquaintanceship with Charles through houseparties and his charities. Sarah S had only known him for a brief while and when she had been a guest at Sandringham and the like. She was not likely to get too much from those brief glimpses.

If Charles was serious about Diana why didn't he consult her grandmother, other relatives or make an effort to get to know her friends, so that he could get a handle on whether for instance she really liked the countryside and country sports  or knew about Camilla? Or would that have been too much of an effort? Seems to me that if Charles was serious about her he would have and certainly should have, made the effort to find out more instead of leaving it to chance and surface impressions after one long weekend in the country.

If he was as self-aware as some have portrayed him why did he not say to himself 'I require solitude sometimes. I prefer my own company at times. I'm happiest in the country. For the sake of our future happiness I have to find out over time if she is fine and OK with all that, especially as she's so much younger than me.' However, there is absolutely no evidence that he ever asked himself those questions or took the trouble to find the answers.

For such a deep thinker (as we are always told Charles is) he seems to have taken a lot to do with Diana on trust without getting to know her better in any deeper way.

[sandy]

so Did Lady F say anything to Diana about the courtship with Charles? I agree I don't think that the "grannies promoted the match".  They may have thought it was a nice idea, and I'm damn sure that Lady Fermoy didn't dislike it..
but I don't think they did anything much other than smile on it and leave it to the young people to work out,.

but if we assume she  DID say anything to Diana, surely she would have said "ok I'm glad you had a date or 2 with Charles, because he's a nice fellow and its good that you have been seen as one of his dates, but I don't think that you are up to fitting into royal life, or being his Princess.  You dotnt know anything about court life, you don't know anything much except those barb Cartlands you keep reading.. if the relationship is serious and you DO want to marry hm, there are things you'll need to learn."
If she did this and Diana didn't listen well some of it is on Diana, that she didn't try to learn more about her husband's family and their ways.
None of it is rocket science.. if Diana DID want to marry Charles, and I think she did, very much, why not read up at least a few magazine artilces or books about the RF that would have given her some idea what the court life is like and about royal history?

In the Bradford book and other books, I read that the Queen Mum told Charles about that "Spencer girl" Diana and if Charles wanted to marry her he needed to do so, or someone else would. Or words to that effect.

Fermoy was anxious when Lady  DIana returned from the Balmoral visit and wanted to know how she did.

Diana could not really learn about "their ways" until she married into the family. As a guest, it was a different story than joining the family.


Double post auto-merged: June 07, 2017, 10:05:58 AM

Diana's dearest friends were young women much like herself. Others had brief acquaintanceship with Charles through houseparties and his charities. Sarah S had only known him for a brief while and when she had been a guest at Sandringham and the like. She was not likely to get too much from those brief glimpses.

If Charles was serious about Diana why didn't he consult her grandmother, other relatives or make an effort to get to know her friends, so that he could get a handle on whether for instance she really liked the countryside and country sports  or knew about Camilla? Or would that have been too much of an effort? Seems to me that if Charles was serious about her he would have and certainly should have, made the effort to find out more instead of leaving it to chance and surface impressions after one long weekend in the country.

If he was as self-aware as some have portrayed him why did he not say to himself 'I require solitude sometimes. I prefer my own company at times. I'm happiest in the country. For the sake of our future happiness I have to find out over time if she is fine and OK with all that, especially as she's so much younger than me.' However, there is absolutely no evidence that he ever asked himself those questions or took the trouble to find the answers.

For such a deep thinker (as we are always told Charles is) he seems to have taken a lot to do with Diana on trust without getting to know her better in any deeper way.

I think Charles should have spelled things out to Diana and I mean everything about what he expected. Before the proposal. Then she could have walked away if she did not like Camilla being around and Charles' interest in her.

[amabel]

Diana's dearest friends were young women much like herself. Others had brief acquaintanceship with Charles through houseparties and his charities. Sarah S had only known him for a brief while and when she had been a guest at Sandringham and the like. She was not likely to get too much from those brief glimpses.

If Charles was serious about Diana why didn't he consult her grandmother, other relatives or make an effort to get to know her friends, so that he could get a handle on whether for instance she really liked the countryside and country sports  or knew about Camilla? Or would that have been too much of an effort? Seems to me that if Charles was serious about her he would have and certainly should have, made the effort to find out more instead of leaving it to chance and surface impressions after one long weekend in the country.

If have to find out over time if she is fine and OK with all that,

I'm sure a lot of talk at Sloaney dinner parties was about the Windosr family, since they were all upper class and had some kind of connextion with them.  Sarah Spencer went on holiday with him, IMO knew him fairly well and SHE Didn't know about Camilla and pass on this titbit to her young sister??
and was charles really supposed to sound out Diana's family and friends and say
"well she says she loves the country and is longing to be a wife and mum, but maybe she's fibbing?  what is the truth?"
In fact there is something in Bradford that Charles DID ask an older lady friend, "do you think it matters that she's so much younger than me"?  however it was a bit too late, like Diana's "not knowing about Cam until she was engaged to him."
Diana and Charles spent more than a weekend or 2 together.  They met several times, in London and at Highgrove, they were together on the Royal yacht and at Balmoral.  OK they didn't get ot know each other that well, but IMo that was because both of them were overly anxious to get married...
As fro C being a loner, I thin most men are rather like this, enjoying their own company and masculine company and requiring "me time".. and most women find this out, in a relationship..

[Curryong]

You can find a lot out from friends and relatives without being that blunt, just in general conversation over time.

The truth is that these two weren't suited temperamentally or any other way really, and if Charles hadn't been as weak as water and not regarded his father's letter as an ultimatum he could have taken his time and explained to his parents, if they complained, that he wanted to make 110% sure that Diana was the girl for him and he was the man for her as their future happiness depended upon it.

In fact  Philip wasn't demanding an engagement and even if he had been if Charles hadnt been so afraid of him and so wishy washy he (Charles) could have pointed out that several years had elapsed between Princess Elizabeth at 17 when she and Philip really started to get to know each other, and the princess at 21 when she wed. He could have asked for a year before talk of an engagement, and if Philip and the Press didn't like, it well then they could go heave. But Charles was gutless and crumbled at the thought of challenging his father.

[dianab]

Fermoy and the Queen Mum promoted the match early on. Fermoy even was chaperone to Charles and Diana on their first date. Fermoy was a true royalist and even testified against her daughter Frances so her grandchildren would grow up next door to Sandringham.  I think the Spencers held back any misgivings about the match. Her mother said she did but her father was exuberant about Diana marrying the Prince of Wales. It seemed to be the high point of his life.

I understand it was Camilla who promoted the match. It was told that Diana was one of names of 'suitable girls' in a list put together by Camilla and/or Kanga. The others 3 'girlfriends' that Charles had shortly before court Diana, including the granddaughter of Mountabatten, were in list. I think Lady Fermoy knew how unsuitable Diana would be to Windsors.

When Charles was dating Sarah Spencer, he was 'close' to Kanga. Camilla was having her kids with her husband Andrew.

[sandy]

Yes, Camilla made the list with Kanga. And was "mentor" to Charles approving of or disapproving of girlfriends he brought to the PB home.

Even if Diana asked what Charles was "really like" to his relatives or friends I doubt they would have been truly honest with her.

I don't think Philip was the reason Charles decided to marry then and Philip could not "force" him. Charles gave himself his own deadline of marrying at age 30 and the birthday came and went. He also was turned down by at least two other women. So Diana was his next lady friend and I think he felt in need of having heirs otherwise his brother Andrew would be his heir, something I think Charles did not want.

What bothers me about Fermoy is her lack of loyalty to her daughter and granddaughter.
Double post auto-merged: June 07, 2017, 11:55:05 AM

You can find a lot out from friends and relatives without being that blunt, just in general conversation over time.

The truth is that these two weren't suited temperamentally or any other way really, and if Charles hadn't been as weak as water and not regarded his father's letter as an ultimatum he could have taken his time and explained to his parents, if they complained, that he wanted to make 110% sure that Diana was the girl for him and he was the man for her as their future happiness depended upon it.

In fact  Philip wasn't demanding an engagement and even if he had been if Charles hadnt been so afraid of him and so wishy washy he (Charles) could have pointed out that several years had elapsed between Princess Elizabeth at 17 when she and Philip really started to get to know each other, and the princess at 21 when she wed. He could have asked for a year before talk of an engagement, and if Philip and the Press didn't like, it well then they could go heave. But Charles was gutless and crumbled at the thought of challenging his father.

Charles was free to end the relationship with Diana without asking his parents. I think the man was and is very weak and wishy washy. I agree with your assessment. Both Diana and Charles were free to walk before the engagement and even then they could have broken things off.

Philip just told Charles to in effect, make up his mind.  Charles does tend to blame others for his own choices and I think he scapegoated his father. He also blamed a courtier instead of himself for Charles own blundering confession of adultery with Camilla. He just can't accept responsibility which is a huge character flaw.

[amabel]

You can find a lot out from friends and relatives without being that blunt, just in general conversation over time.

The truth is that these two weren't suited temperamentally or any other way really, and if Charles hadn't been as weak as water and not regarded his father's letter as an ultimatum he could have taken his time and explained to his parents, if they complained, that he wanted to make 110% sure that Diana was the girl for him and he was the man for her as their future happiness depended upon it.

In fact  Philip wasn't demanding an engagement and even if he had been if Charles hadnt been so .

Philip is a bully to Charles and I can quite understand Charles feeling pressured, esp sicne he was now into his 30s and no sign of a wife.  And in essence Phil was right.  it wasn't the same as his relationship wit the queen, now the press and public were making a lot of noise, chasing the Royals eveyrhwere, they would be on C's trail now that he was over 30 and dating a pretty young woman who seemed in their eyes an ideal princess. 
As the queen's reported to have said the RF in general could not take the idea of this sort of press pursuit going on for a long time and I'm sure Diana didn't want and could not have handled a longer courtship with photographers dogging her every step. 
SHe wanted to get married. She was said to be anxious that Charles hadn't proposed.  Phil was in essence right.  Charles had reachted an age when he should get married,  Press intrusion was now massive and if he did wait much longer, he was going to be twice his bride's age, if he had to go for a virgin, which he did.
And I would not like to feel that my boyfriend was uneasy that I was deceiving him about whether I shared his tastes and asking my family behind my back, which is what the idea of Charles "talking to her friends or family" amounts to. 
Diana had given the impression that she liked many of the things that Charles liked, and if she was giving the wrong impression, she was the one who would be most unhappy when reality kicked in and she found that she was now tied to a lifestyle and a family she didn't like.
I don think that she lied deliberately but I think she fooled herself that she was having a great time with Charles taking her to watch him fishing, just as she took a big interest in medicine when she was in love with Khan or art when she was with Oliver Hoare.
I think it was a trend of hers when she was in love, to adopt the beloved's interests, and not to see any obstacles to the relationship.   She even seems to have given J Hewitt the idea that she really rather liked horsey stuff....

[sandy]

Charles said publicly he thought 30 was a good age for him to get married. He chose to say it. Not his father.  In this day and age he could have waited until he was in his fifties like Prince Albert of Monaco. But back then it was not.

the world knew that Diana did not hunt and also that she did not ride (being thrown from a horse as a child). She did not pretend to hunt. She took lessons in fishing and took walks with Charles. Charles gave the wrong impression to Diana by bringing her to Camilla and her husband's home  and Camilla seen as the "friend." Diana knew the hold Camilla had on Charles after the ceremony when she knew her the woman was not going anywhere. Diana dutifully went to Balmoral year after year until the separation.  I would not say Diana did not "like" his family but she found them as rather remote with her.

I think she did have a great time with Charles since she wanted to get to know him and what better way than to accompany on his country pursuits.

Diana is not exactly the only woman who wanted to learn more about a boyfriend's interests. There is nothing wrong with that. She did not "adopt" medicine when she met Khan, obviously she couldn't. But she took an interest in what he did. Nothing wrong with that.

Diana was no phony.

Hewitt never said Diana "pretended" anything. Diana's riding lessons came about because she wanted to learn to ride and get over her fear of horses. Hewitt knew of Diana's dislike of  participating in equestrian sports.

Diana was an excellent skier and she and Charles went together on ski trips each year before the separation.