'What a curse black sheep are in a family!': The Queen Mother's thoughts

lilibet80 · September 05, 2009, 09:00:45 PM

Quote from: drezzle on August 23, 2009, 10:15:37 PM
Other sources said at first she refused Prince Albert as she had set her heart on the Hon James Stuart, a son of the Earl of Moray.

She and Jamie Stuart were very attached to each other. They were true soul mates. They made a beautiful couple, but each knew that they had to marry money, and neither of them had very much. When Queen Mary was manipulating the universe to get Elizabeth to marry Bertie, she arranged for Jamie to be sent away to the oil fields in Texas so he would be out of the way. Jamie did not like Bertie for whom he worked. The royals were afraid he would influence Elizabeth against him. He married the daughter of the Duke of Devonshire, Rachel Cavendish, who backs up the story. In any case he was a philanderer. Long after Elizabeth was the widowed Queen Mother, Jamie called her and asked her if could come to lunch. They had lunch together at Clarence House and the next day she was informed that he had died.

drezzle · September 05, 2009, 10:00:00 PM

Quote from: lilibet80 on September 05, 2009, 09:00:45 PM

She and Jamie Stuart were very attached to each other. They were true soul mates. They made a beautiful couple ..............................Long after Elizabeth was the widowed Queen Mother, Jamie called her and asked her if could come to lunch. They had lunch together at Clarence House and the next day she was informed that he had died.

That's quite sad -- I wonder if they would have been together again if he'd lived -- being soul mates and all is something that doesn't disappear.

whisperofsound · September 05, 2009, 10:11:52 PM

maybe but in private only. sadly those times in which they lived. i guess would not allow it. : ) i am just taking a guess. but that story is sad non the less.

lilibet80 · September 06, 2009, 08:10:09 PM

Quote from: whisperofsound on September 05, 2009, 10:11:52 PM
maybe but in private only. sadly those times in which they lived. i guess would not allow it. : ) i am just taking a guess. but that story is sad non the less.

Elizabeth and James Stuart were lifelong friends. They enjoyed each others company over the years. He was never going to be her lover or anything more to her than the good friend he was.

whisperofsound · September 06, 2009, 10:04:18 PM

oh okay : ) i think it said they were in love once. oh well. . thanks though

Hale · September 06, 2009, 10:29:52 PM

With regards to Jamie Stuart. I'm sure I read somewhere that following the QM's marriage to Bertie, Stuart was later cited in a divorce scandal.

Also there is something else, which I wonder shall be in this book. Back in the late 70's early 80's, there was a snippet in Nigel Dempster's column in the DM. The implication being that the QM and Andrew Parker-Bowls father were very close. There was also another rumour, that Nigel Dempster's source was none other than Princess Margaret. It wouldn't be the only time a princess confided in a gossip columnist working for the Daily Mail.

lilibet80 · September 07, 2009, 07:16:16 PM

The Queen Mother had many friends, both men and women. She herself has always been above reproach. She was too high minded and careful of her position to ever injure her reputation in any way. The closest she ever got was a "flirtation" with Sir Kenneth Clark. Bertie saw her flirting with him and bawled them both out and that was the end of it.

drezzle · September 07, 2009, 07:35:37 PM

Lilibet80 -- you speak with such intimate authority on the Queen Mother. What books or articles about her influenced you the most, if at all?

Hale · September 07, 2009, 09:01:47 PM

Quote from: lilibet80 on September 07, 2009, 07:16:16 PM
The Queen Mother had many friends, both men and women. She herself has always been above reproach. She was too high minded and careful of her position to ever injure her reputation in any way. The closest she ever got was a "flirtation" with Sir Kenneth Clark. Bertie saw her flirting with him and bawled them both out and that was the end of it.

I personally did not know the Queen Mother, so I can't say for sure how high minded the QM was or whether there is any truth in that rumour. However, I wonder if it is high mindedness or us the public who put certain people on pedestals.

lilibet80 · September 09, 2009, 05:02:52 PM

I personally did not know the QM either, but I judge her on her behavior and the reputation she had over the years. I have no personal investment in speaking well of her, nor do I put her on a pedastal, I was impressed by the way she handled herself during the war and in the years following her husband's death. She has been a mainstay of her family and was loved and respected by many people.

In answer to Drezzle's question, off the top of my head I have been influenced by some of the following books:
The Queen Mother's Family Story by James Wentworth Day.
The Queen Mother by Penelope Mortimer
The Queen Mother by Anne Morrow
My Darling Buffy by Grania Forbes
Royal Feud by Michael Thornton
The Duke of Windsor by Philip Ziegler
The Duchess of Windsor by Higham.
These are just a few of the books I have on the subject.

whisperofsound · September 09, 2009, 06:02:51 PM

i am curious(sp.) to know if the oil field story about james, inwhich book may if it was, was in. would love to know more. . thanks. : )

lilibet80 · September 09, 2009, 06:30:31 PM

Quote from: whisperofsound on September 09, 2009, 06:02:51 PM
i am curious(sp.) to know if the oil field story about james, inwhich book may if it was, was in. would love to know more. . thanks. : )

My Darling Buffy by Grania Forbes

whisperofsound · September 09, 2009, 06:48:48 PM

thanks so much. : )

drezzle · September 09, 2009, 07:58:18 PM

Quote from: lilibet80 on September 09, 2009, 05:02:52 PM
I personally did not know the QM either, but I judge her on her behavior and the reputation she had over the years. I have no personal investment in speaking well of her, nor do I put her on a pedastal, I was impressed by the way she handled herself during the war and in the years following her husband's death. She has been a mainstay of her family and was loved and respected by many people.

In answer to Drezzle's question, off the top of my head I have been influenced by some of the following books:
The Queen Mother's Family Story by James Wentworth Day.
The Queen Mother by Penelope Mortimer
The Queen Mother by Anne Morrow
My Darling Buffy by Grania Forbes
Royal Feud by Michael Thornton
The Duke of Windsor by Philip Ziegler
The Duchess of Windsor by Higham.
These are just a few of the books I have on the subject.

Thanks Lilibet80 -- that is a nice list to add to my reading. :)

Hale · September 09, 2009, 09:41:14 PM

Quote from: lilibet80 on September 09, 2009, 05:02:52 PM
I personally did not know the QM either, but I judge her on her behavior and the reputation she had over the years. I have no personal investment in speaking well of her, nor do I put her on a pedestal, I was impressed by the way she handled herself during the war and in the years following her husband's death. She has been a mainstay of her family and was loved and respected by many people.

I have no personal investment in speaking well of Prince Phillip or the Queen but I do, and I accept that they are both human and therefore fallible. The Queen Mother is someone whom I have also spoken well of if you care to peruse my posts on other threads and she too was human and fallible.

lilibet80 · September 10, 2009, 04:51:59 PM

Of course the QM was fallible. She made mistakes in her life as do we all. I think there is an inclination to put people of her rank and status on a pedastal, but only to a degree. Compared to people like Princess Margaret or Princess Michael the Queen Mother had a much better reputation. I do not hero worship her or any of the royal family by any means. However, the full body of her work has been exemplary. She had a good deal to contend with throughout her life and she did her very best and was a great asset to the family.

Trudie · September 11, 2009, 03:10:53 PM

IMO the QM was a spiteful person who like her grandson blamed all her woes on others. The fact that she blamed her husbands death on the D&D of Windsor was totally absurd She blamed them for putting the strain of Kingship on his shoulders as leading to his death but the reality was he died from lung cancer as he was always a chain smoker and a well know drinker. From childhood his health was never good but it was more convenient to blame them. As for her being beyond reproach she had the most excellent role models in King George V and Queen Mary in how to be royal.

drezzle · September 11, 2009, 03:15:59 PM

Queen Mary was little better than a thief in how she "bought" the Romanov jewels. Because of that and other things, I couldn't call her an excellent role model.

Trudie · September 11, 2009, 04:12:03 PM

Drezzle what I meant by that remark was Queen Mary was very careful that unseemly behavior was never to see the light of day. It was Queen Mary who started the sealing of royal wills to cover up her brothers unseemly behavior and the fact that he had left the Cambridge Emeralds to his mistress. Her true character and that of her family only came to light after her death, As is now going to emerge the Queen Mothers.

Hale · September 11, 2009, 08:41:52 PM

Quote from: Trudie on September 11, 2009, 03:10:53 PM
IMO the QM was a spiteful person who like her grandson blamed all her woes on others. The fact that she blamed her husbands death on the D&D of Windsor was totally absurd She blamed them for putting the strain of Kingship on his shoulders as leading to his death but the reality was he died from lung cancer as he was always a chain smoker and a well know drinker. From childhood his health was never good but it was more convenient to blame them. As for her being beyond reproach she had the most excellent role models in King George V and Queen Mary in how to be royal.

Trudie, I agree with you. Whilst I was an admirer of her royal role, I don't think she was the nice sweet old lady everyone imagined. One historian described her as tough as boots. But I recall other writings which also implied a very jealous streak.

I believe that now the QM has passed away. Aside from this biography others will follow, but the truth lies inbetween.

lilibet80 · September 12, 2009, 08:01:09 PM

Quote from: Hale on September 11, 2009, 08:41:52 PM
Quote from: Trudie on September 11, 2009, 03:10:53 PM
IMO the QM was a spiteful person who like her grandson blamed all her woes on others. The fact that she blamed her husbands death on the D&D of Windsor was totally absurd She blamed them for putting the strain of Kingship on his shoulders as leading to his death but the reality was he died from lung cancer as he was always a chain smoker and a well know drinker. From childhood his health was never good but it was more convenient to blame them. As for her being beyond reproach she had the most excellent role models in King George V and Queen Mary in how to be royal.

Of course the King died of lung cancer. I believe the QM was angry because if David had stayed on Bertie would not have worked so hard and smoked and drank as much as he did. It was David who thrust Bertie into his role as King and Bertie who bore the brunt of being a wartime King for all those years. If David had stayed Bertie would have remained Duke of York. His wife would have seen to it that he had a calm and healthy life. He was always of frail health and because of the abdication he worked far into the night and had all the burdens and worries of the war on his shoulders. I would be interested in knowing what other woes the QM blamed on others. Bertie's death almost destroyed her. She was terribly depressed after it and it was only Winston Churchill who was able to relieve her mind somewhat and lift her spirit to some degree. The Bowes-Lyon family has a history of not dealing well with the death of a loved one. The QM's mother, Lady Strathmore became a semi invalid after the death of several children. Although King George and Queen Mary were excellent role models, Elizabeth was acceptable to Queen Mary because of her innate refinement and poise. She was very impressed with Elizabeth when she visited Glamis and even though Elizabeth was an Earl's daughter she approved of Bertie's marrying her. Elizabeth herself made some good innovations in royal behavior. She was the first member of the RF who smiled at the public and she charmed everybody she came in contact with. She was a very welcome addition to a royal family which had been notably stilted and cold.

Trudie · September 12, 2009, 09:57:17 PM

lilibet I don't buy into that argument. OK so he was a King with burdens during war time but the fact is he was most probability an alcoholic and heavy smoker and this started before the abdication and the QM was a real drinker as well, even if he had remained just the Duke of York his life was not calm nor was it ever healthy his temper was legendary. Sorry for being so cynical of course she grieved for her husband but her depression and grief was IMO more to the fact that she was no longer Queen Consort but a Dowager Queen and no longer had the influence behind the throne. So what if Elizabeth was only the daughter of an Earl, Queen Mary's own daughter married a Vicount later Earl Harewood at the time there were no monarchies standing and the King looked and approved of marriages within the aristocracy the only child to marry a royal was Prince George and that was arranged to keep him out of trouble.

The QM also encouraged the rumors that the Windsors were Nazi sympathers. But in the Book by Kenneth Rose Queens, Kings, and Courtiers it was noted that it was the QM who introduced to Lord Halifax a Foreign Secretary to the book Mein Kampf.

Hale · September 12, 2009, 10:15:39 PM

As a child King George VI then Duke of York, was forced to write with his right-hand despite the fact he was naturally left-handed. He was also forced to wear splints on his legs to correct his knock knees. None of this did his confidence any good and I felt he always felt inadequate as a person even when he was King.

The Earl of Harewood, described George V and Queen Mary as 'buttoned up'. Though they loved their children they didn't necessarily show it. George V, it was said expected his children to behave and act as if they were in the Navy. It was also said that George V used to bully his children but Queen Mary never intervened as a mother because she was minded that her husband was also her sovereign. Consequently the Duke of York suffered a nervous breakdown when he was aged nine.

With regards to royals marrying non royals. Prior to the First World War, members of the RF were expected to marry other royals. It was during WWI George V, had that changed. As you know it was during this time that the family name was changed to Windsor and that the King actually waived the royals marrying royals in favour of members of the RF marrying Britons.

It was borne about because of the anti German sentiments at the time and because the RF were of German ancestry. Hence the above changes.

Trudie · September 12, 2009, 11:24:02 PM

True Hale not to mention the fact the the few monarchies left are Catholic with the exception of Norway, Denmark and Sweden.

Fabulous Fake · September 13, 2009, 04:45:56 AM

Really looking forward to reading this book but I think I'll probably wait for the p/b edition.

More news has just been released today by BP.

''Buckingham Palace has released the text of a letter written by the Queen Mother in the aftermath of a Second World War bombing attack on Buckingham Palace.
The letter to Queen Mary said she was with George VI, removing an eyelash from his eye, when the bomb landed.
She recounted the scream of a bomb which exploded with a tremendous crash.
She confessed her "knees trembled a little bit for a minute or two", but ended with "PS: Dear old B.P. is still standing and that is the main thing". ''

from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8252978.stm

''The letter was written to her mother-in-law, Queen Mary, and is featured in the Queen Mother's official biography written by William Shawcross which is published later this week.
The letter was one of hundreds of letters from the royal archive used by the biographer to chronicle the life of the Queen Mother.''

There is quite a bit of coverage about the book which is due out this week. Its being reported in most papers today.

''Seven-and-a-half years have now passed since the death of the Queen Mother, and six since the Queen asked the historian William Shawcross to chart a life that spanned the whole of the 20th Century.

His official 1,059-page biography offers new and fascinating insights into the woman behind the pearls and pastel dresses and will be scrutinised by historians for generations to come.

Both the Queen and Prince Charles read the manuscript before publication but the Palace and Shawcross's publishers, Macmillan, are keen to make clear that the Royals had no editorial control over the end result. ''

from http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-1213028/Queen-mothers-biographer-walked-fine-line.html