QEII in her 90's how should her family be assisting her?

amabel · July 26, 2019, 07:11:40 AM

probably the end of the monarchy after Charles..

Princess Cassandra · July 28, 2019, 05:18:50 PM

Quote from: amabel on July 26, 2019, 07:11:40 AM
probably the end of the monarchy after Charles..

Time will tell - who knows that some royal could do something that really lets down the whole and everyone leans towards the republican train of thought. On the other hand, the excitement of the pageantry and the glamour of royal events are more prevalent in GB than anywhere else (or perhaps more widely reported?) and gives its citizens a feeling of uniqueness, or specialness. Although less so, there are still lots of crowds at events that even include a lot of young people. The mystique is still there.

amabel · July 28, 2019, 05:23:03 PM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on July 28, 2019, 05:18:50 PM
Time will tell - who knows that some royal could do something that really lets down the whole and everyone leans towards the republican train of thought. On the other hand, the excitement of the pageantry and the glamour of royal events are more prevalent in GB than anywhere else (or perhaps more widely reported?) and gives its citizens a feeling of uniqueness, or specialness. Although less so, there are still lots of crowds at events that even include a lot of young people. The mystique is still there.

I don't know.. I think that the excitement of watching royal events is less than it was.. people are now much more inclined to groan about the cost and security issues than to enjoy them. And I think that while Charles has ideas about what he wants to do, William might be content to let things go.. and when his turn comes lalong..he would not be that keen. Or it might be that when Will becomes King, royal life will be very much limited to Opening parliament and a bit of charity wrok and nto a full time job...

Princess Cassandra · July 29, 2019, 06:07:46 PM

Quote from: amabel on July 28, 2019, 05:23:03 PM
I don't know.. I think that the excitement of watching royal events is less than it was.. people are now much more inclined to groan about the cost and security issues than to enjoy them. And I think that while Charles has ideas about what he wants to do, William might be content to let things go.. and when his turn comes lalong..he would not be that keen. Or it might be that when Will becomes King, royal life will be very much limited to Opening parliament and a bit of charity wrok and nto a full time job...

I don't know either, because I only see the crowds from the media's prospective. Not only that but we don't know how the public will react to Prince Charles's ideas, even if they are good ones. Regarding Prince William, however, during the interview for the POW's 70th year, he did make some surprising comments. I can't quote exactly, but he indicated that he loves what his father has done but when the time comes he has ideas of how he wants to go on. He even used the term, "I want to be my own man". No doubt he has discussed these with his father, but it sounds like we should not expect things to just go on as they are where POW projects are concerned.

amabel · July 29, 2019, 06:12:40 PM

Quote from: Princess Cassandra on July 29, 2019, 06:07:46 PM
I don't know either, because I only see the crowds from the media's prospective. Not only that but we don't know how the public will react to Prince Charles's ideas, even if they are good ones. Regarding Prince William, however, during the interview for the POW's 70th year, he did make some surprising comments. I can't quote exactly, but he indicated that he loves what his father has done but when the time comes he has ideas of how he wants to go on. He even used the term, "I want to be my own man". No doubt he has discussed these with his father, but it sounds like we should not expect things to just go on as they are where POW projects are concerned.

Mm, I do think that esp if Charles isn't that popular as a King.. maybe the monarchy wil only survive in a much more restricted form by the time Will comes along. I think that Will may have a few ideas.. but If he was told "All we wants from you is to turn up to Open Parliament and a few things like that, and maybe a charity gig or 2" he would be OK with it... He would be happy with his private life and not want to be a vry active King.

sandy · July 29, 2019, 07:25:31 PM

Historically the public does not take well to inactive monarchs. They like them to be more engaged with the public and not retreating. It would not be a popular reign IMO if that is his decision.

amabel · July 29, 2019, 07:57:15 PM

Quote from: sandy on July 29, 2019, 07:25:31 PM
Historically the public does not take well to inactive monarchs. They like them to be more engaged with the public and not retreating. It would not be a popular reign IMO if that is his decision.

Sandy as I said, its quite possible the public will not want an "active monarch". Charles may well be an active monarch.. as he has been an activist POW...and we're told that he is not popular. In years to come the public and establishment may well want the King/queen to just do a bit of ceremonial and not the whole set of public engaegments that they do at present. Many European Monarchies only have a couple of royals working.. just the Monarch and consort, the heir and consort.. and they don't do nearly as many public appearances as the British royals do.
And I'd say William will be OK with that.. or even with the end of the monarchy..

TLLK · July 29, 2019, 11:20:15 PM

It will be interesting to see how things might change with Charles' reign. Most of the European houses have limited the number of royals who take on official engagements to monarch/consort, adult heir/spouse and perhaps one or two other adults-former monarch/consort or adult sibling/spouse.

These monarchies function with the monarch attending meetings and making appearances primarily in the capital but with some domestic travel to different provinces and of course overseas travel. WA, Felipe, Phillipe, Henri, and their spouses handle the majority of the work and have for the most part excluded either aunts/uncles and in two of those nations, siblings.

There is typically a Remembrance Day, opening of Parliament, military parade/event, Thanksgiving event, National Day on everyone's calendar so these events are always attended by the main core of the royal families. Add to that the usual domestic meetings, State Visits, and foreign travel, it would be possible to scale back the BRF as well. I honestly believe that by Charles' reign, he'll slowly reduce the size of the BRF over the years to mirror what his European peers do.

sandy · July 30, 2019, 12:23:43 AM

the next regime may want to reverse what Charles says he will do as King. Or any future monarch.

TLLK · July 30, 2019, 04:05:39 AM

@sandy-If Charles chooses to slim down the monarchy in an effort to reign in some of the costs, I would be very surprised if the government and the public would be in favor of "reversing" the trend back to a larger pool of working royals.

Curryong · July 30, 2019, 04:45:01 AM

That's so TLLK and I agree that the BRF will be significantly trimmed down in Charles's reign. However I can't imagine that he will get rid of his siblings for a while. Anne for instance might continue on for the next ten years before retiring, and I imagine the Wessexes might well be given some patronages directly connected now with the Dukedom of Edinburgh. They already have some. I don't know what he will do about Andrew.

One thing that makes the BRF distinct from other European monarchies is of course the Commonwealth. And I know the Spanish royals visit South American spheres of influence, but it's not like the BRF. There are military and charitable and official links all over between the monarch, Royal family and the countries concerned. Even if (as I think) the realms will become republics in the next reign, many of those links will remain and so therefore will the tours every two or three years.

None of the European monarchies have a separate country attached to the main body as Scotland is to England (except for the Faroes to Denmark.) Therefore Royal duties in Scotland will remain, for as long as that attachment under the Crown exists.

That adds extra layers other monarchies don't have, and with an elderly monarch and his even more elderly wife, long distance travel for instance, would more and more fall on younger royals. It wouldn't be able to be handled by four people in my estimation, as more would be needed when senior royals are out of the country.

amabel · July 30, 2019, 07:07:02 AM

Quote from: TLLK on July 30, 2019, 04:05:39 AM
@sandy-If Charles chooses to slim down the monarchy in an effort to reign in some of the costs, I would be very surprised if the government and the public would be in favor of "reversing" the trend back to a larger pool of working royals.

Very true.. I think Charles will always be an activiist.. but I don't think that William is quite like that.. and while he may do charity wrork he will be doing it more as "William Windsor" than as the king.. and if the ceremonial and other duties are scaled back it is unlikely that the Govt and public would want that changed.

Double post auto-merged: July 30, 2019, 08:07:41 AM

Quote from: sandy on July 30, 2019, 12:23:43 AM
the next regime may want to reverse what Charles says he will do as King. Or any future monarch.

but why? Its been said that Charles is not that popular and some of that is due to his beig perceived as a "meddler" and over anxious to be an active Prince/king. So a King who takes a back step and isn't seen as "doing too much".. is likely to be more popular. Plus Charles IS concerned for costs and while during his reign he will probably work as hard as he can to do as much as he reasonably can with the aid of his 2 sons.. and his siblings.. he is clearly working towards a smaller pool of royal workers. I think the reactions to things like royal weddings, which were traditioanly a "show" that the public enjoyed, shows that people just don't take the same pleasure in watching a big "show" by royals the way they used to.. There's a lot more grumbling about the costs and the security issues. Even Harry who is the son of a future King, ended up being married in a ceremony in Windosr whereas even say 10 years ago, he would certainly have been married in London and had a really big show..

Princess Cassandra · July 30, 2019, 12:54:38 PM

Quote from: amabel on July 30, 2019, 07:07:02 AM
Very true.. I think Charles will always be an activiist.. but I don't think that William is quite like that.. and while he may do charity wrork he will be doing it more as "William Windsor" than as the king.. and if the ceremonial and other duties are scaled back it is unlikely that the Govt and public would want that changed.
Double post auto-merged: July 30, 2019, 08:07:41 AM

but why? Its been said that Charles is not that popular and some of that is due to his beig perceived as a "meddler" and over anxious to be an active Prince/king. So a King who takes a back step and isn't seen as "doing too much".. is likely to be more popular. Plus Charles IS concerned for costs and while during his reign he will probably work as hard as he can to do as much as he reasonably can with the aid of his 2 sons.. and his siblings.. he is clearly working towards a smaller pool of royal workers. I think the reactions to things like royal weddings, which were traditioanly a "show" that the public enjoyed, shows that people just don't take the same pleasure in watching a big "show" by royals the way they used to.. There's a lot more grumbling about the costs and the security issues. Even Harry who is the son of a future King, ended up being married in a ceremony in Windosr whereas even say 10 years ago, he would certainly have been married in London and had a really big show..

But Charles has already said that he knows he cannot be an activist when he is king, which is why he is working so hard to support his strong opinions now. He knows that the sovereign role is completely different, and he seems to view it as a complete change of life and mission, which of course it will be. I'm sure he has studied his mother's, grandfather's and great grandfather's reigns. He is well read and a student of history, but for all that, he is a servant of the people, and if the people don't like how he perceives his role......

amabel · July 30, 2019, 12:57:05 PM

I meant he'll be an activist in the sense thtat he will be vrery busy, and that he will still have interests in terms of his work that he will pursue as much as he can within the role of King. He is not going to just turn up a few times a year, he will still work very hard.

TLLK · July 30, 2019, 05:11:06 PM

Yes @amabel IMO we need to define the difference between an activist and a monarch who will be active in fulfilling his/her role/duties.
The majority of constitutional monarchs (primarily found in Europe) are not allowed to be "activists" though they are active. IMHO Charles knows that once he's the monarch that he can no longer be as free with his viewpoints on the environment, homeopathy, architecture etc..but he will be as active as he can by fulfilling his required duties/roles.

amabel · July 30, 2019, 05:59:59 PM

Quote from: TLLK on July 30, 2019, 05:11:06 PM
Yes @amabel IMO we need to define the difference between an activist and a monarch who will be active in fulfilling his/her role/duties.
The majority of constitutional monarchs (primarily found in Europe) are not allowed to be "activists" though they are active. IMHO Charles knows that once he's the monarch that he can no longer be as free with his viewpoints on the environment, homeopathy, architecture etc..but he will be as active as he can by fulfilling his required duties/roles.

well I mean that I don't think William's heart is in being King the way Charles' is. Charles really wants to do good iwht his being POW and King.. William is not quite like thtat and I think if the role of King was reduced to a very few ceremonial duties.. he would be fine with that.

TLLK · July 31, 2019, 12:26:31 AM

@amabel-Honestly I believe that QEII's grandchildren are purposely not taking on quite as many patronages/charities as the older generations as they know the future will see a smaller pool of working royals. IMO they'll be busy with those tasks/charities/patronages that are on a national level. (This is what I've noticed is happening in monarchies that limit the size of the working royals-Spain, the NL.) However this might be challenging as the UK as it is currently made up of four different kingdoms with their own unique traditions etc..For example the UK sends one united Olympic team but England, Scotland, Wales and I believe Northern Ireland also have their own national teams for other sports.

amabel · July 31, 2019, 07:37:31 AM

Quote from: TLLK on July 31, 2019, 12:26:31 AM
@amabel-Honestly I believe that QEII's grandchildren are purposely not taking on quite as many patronages/charities as the older generations as they know the future will see a smaller pool of working royals. IMO they'll be busy with those tasks/charities/patronages that are on a national level. (This is what I've noticed is happening in monarchies that limit the size of the working royals-Spain, the NL.) However this might be challenging as the UK as it is currently made up of four different kingdoms with their own unique traditions etc..For example the UK sends one united Olympic team but England, Scotland, Wales and I believe Northern Ireland also have their own national teams for other sports.

Yes,I think that although Charles still does want to do something - use hs position to make difference.. - he is alsos conscious of cost issues and the changes in the world of royalty and he's preparing for his son to have a more limited role..if that's what the Govt and public want.. and for there to be less royals helpling hm and William...

sandy · July 31, 2019, 02:39:14 PM

Charles really can't influence William after William takes over. Charles may like to try to "mold" William to his vision of a perfect monarch. But once Charles passes on or William becomes regent if Charles is incapacitated, Will would probably want to do his own vision of the perfect monarch. Charles can perhaps only suggest but William when he's monarch would be the one calling the shots.

amabel · July 31, 2019, 02:49:30 PM

And do you really think Will's idea of the perfect monarch is going to be a very active and outgoing one? He is much less inclined to puzzle over issues and to work very hard than his father has always been. Plus, as has been said, the cost issue is likely to appeal to the Govt and public.. in that they will want the RF to be run cheaper and simpler and that means less royals doing public duties and the Monarch also operating in a simpler way. Probalby Charles will want to have a coronation but I would say that WIll wont and the Govt and public will be keen on this as it is cheaper and more in fitting with the ideas of the 21st century than a big ceremony.

sandy · July 31, 2019, 02:58:16 PM

I don't think so but Charles can't really determine what William will do. I think William would decidedly have a coronation. And on the same scale as per tradition.

amabel · July 31, 2019, 03:06:29 PM

Quote from: sandy on July 31, 2019, 02:58:16 PM
I don't think so but Charles can't really determine what William will do. I think William would decidedly have a coronation. And on the same scale as per tradition.

Im not at all sure. He is not particularly formal.. he has not been brought up to be waited on hand and foot nor to delight in fancy rituals like his father...
Besdies, the mood of the public may well be in favour of no coronation, a simple investiture ceremony like many continental monarchies.. So even if he wants it, he might not get it.
and Charles himself is setting the trend in motion, to save money, of cutting back on the royals who do Duties.. and once that happens it is not likely the Govt and public will be happy with a reversal of that policy

TLLK · July 31, 2019, 07:27:00 PM

@amabel-I agree. The government and the public might be in favor of a simple investiture rather than a coronation. AFAIK only the UK is the only constitutional monarchy in Europe that still has an actual coronation. William could still swear the same oaths but the CoE might have a reduced role. IMVHO might be a good compromise and be seen as a modernization. I'm not sure if we'd even see Charles' coronation be as bejeweled and extravagant in appearance as George VI's and QEII's. Traditions might need to be streamlined with an upcoming ceremony. There will be questions regarding the costs especially since security will be very expensive safeguarding those in WA and the public on the street.

Anyhow getting back to the main topic, thank you to all who have been participating in this discussion. :happy:

sandy · July 31, 2019, 08:51:46 PM

I think that the public would want the formal Coronation. They don't happen every day and the last one was 1953. From what I read, people in 1953 were glued to the TV watching and in the US there were exhibits in department store windows commemorating the coronation. I do think William will have the traditional one.

Curryong · July 31, 2019, 09:30:31 PM

I think there is likely to be a Coronation for Charles. Who knows what will happen in another 20-25 years when William is likely to be crowned if Charles lives as long as his parents.

However, I think Charles's Coronation is likely to be pared down. In 1953 Britain still had colonial possessions and troops from these colonies marched in the processions through central London. That won't happen today. Foreign Royals will still be present of course, heirs and their spouses and Commonwealth leaders.

I think the ancient ritual and the crowning will remain, but IMO Charles is likely to want some kind of multi-Faith element to be added in the shape of Chief Rabbi, Mullah etc. Some of the very long anthems and prayers and hymns and other music might be cut. If Charles and Camilla are nearer eighty than seventy when they come to the Throne a very long ceremony would be immensely tiring.