Looking critically

amabel · September 10, 2019, 02:45:36 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:59:47 PM
Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.

How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?

Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.

How could she be dependent on them...when she did not take them for long? She would have had her treatment reviewed on a regular basis anyway and would not have been allowed to become dependent on them. As for her sister, well I can only suggest you ask the sister?
Charles brought in doctors as Diana was clearly not in a good mental state.. They treated her anxiety. if she did not talk to them about her bulimia, they could not treat it...

sandy · September 10, 2019, 04:24:41 PM

Valium can be addictive. Fact.

Starting them can lead to addiction.

Why would I ask the sister? And this was all the way back in 1981-82.

Bullimia symptoms can be observed. And eating disorders apparently ran in her family.

dianab · September 10, 2019, 04:59:12 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.

she had only 2 kids not 10. during the 10 years she had go to balmoral (as well as sandringham) she loathed it in her own words

it was commented in press in mid/late 1980s and even more during the war of waleses, that diana going to polo matches after harry was born was all pressure of courtiers (ideas) to counter gossip surrounding their bad marriage

sandy · September 10, 2019, 06:42:53 PM

Yes but dianab she did go and every year until the separation. She saw the boys enjoyed it. With her sons with her I doubt she really "loathed" it. Diana still went to those polo matches dianab. She was also seen there with her sons.

oak_and_cedar · September 10, 2019, 07:51:23 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 09, 2019, 10:05:19 PM
She was given the wrong help when she was pregnant with William. Charles had doctors that just fed her valium And then she could not take the pills because of her pregnancy. It was baffling that her sister Sarah did not refer DIana to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place.

Valium was certainly not the solution.

It is certainly very strange why they did not recommend her to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place. I don't think that Diana hid her illness to such an extent that her family didn't notice. After all, they had experience of it because of Sara. And if even her friends noticed, surely her family must've too.

It's baffling to say the least.

dianab · September 10, 2019, 07:59:43 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 06:42:53 PM
Yes but dianab she did go and every year until the separation. She saw the boys enjoyed it. With her sons with her I doubt she really "loathed" it. Diana still went to those polo matches dianab. She was also seen there with her sons.

from all the accounts i read, in sandringham and balmoral the adults spent most of time away from the kids... you should to read gilbey phonecall and morton tapes transcripts, she loathed her time there, the in-laws, 'the atmosphere' etc. i've always understood back then it was sort of a rule go to sandringham and balmoral and not something that was a choice (at least from diana point of view)... she described that as 'the most stressful time of year' when she was supposed to be relaxing on holidays

sandy · September 10, 2019, 10:56:55 PM

she still went to Balmoral until the separation.

LouisFerdinand · September 11, 2019, 12:18:34 AM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:59:47 PM
Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.

How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?

Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.

Was her sister Lady Sarah or Lady Jane?

Curryong · September 11, 2019, 12:38:08 AM

Lady Sarah Spencer had an eating disorder. Lady Jane did not.

oak_and_cedar · September 11, 2019, 05:32:03 AM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
she still went to Balmoral until the separation.

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 05:32:16 AM

Quote from: dianab on September 10, 2019, 07:59:43 PM
from all the accounts i read, in sandringham and balmoral the adults spent most of time away from the kids... you should to read gilbey phonecall and morton tapes transcripts, she loathed her time there, the in-laws, 'the atmosphere' etc. i've always understood back then it was sort of a rule go to sandringham and balmoral and not something that was a choice (at least from diana point of view)... she described that as 'the most stressful time of year' when she was supposed to be relaxing on holidays

This is a article with pictures of a shoot she went to

Princess Diana is seen on a shoot in candid photos | Daily Mail Online

I don't think she hated country life. She grew up in Norfolk, if i'm not mistaken? And then there are even pictures of her riding, on her fathers estate. I think it's possible to love city life and enjoy the country now and then.

I think the reason she felt bad sometimes was because of the situation in her marriage. She was perhaps the only one wanting to tackle the problem head on. IMO.

Curryong · September 11, 2019, 06:29:02 AM

Diana did love Norfolk when she was at Wood Farm on the Sandringham estate as a child. (Btw she fell of a horse there and broke her leg. It gave her a fear of horses and she hardly ever rode again.)

There's a bit of a difference with messing around on your father's country estate with your family around you and with your father hosting the occasional shoot with friends, to being penned in with people with whom you're not particularly congenial, where formality rules inside the home. It's a question of degree. The very walls at Balmoral are decorated with many deer antlers.

At Balmoral and at Sandringham in those days there were several changes of clothes undertaken every day, dinner was a formal occasion, and the talk over the table was almost always of game birds shot, deer stalked, fish caught etc.

Diana was a country girl and was quite used to shoots. However I don't know that she was ever obsessed with salmon fishing, for instance, as her husband was, or liked crawling on her belly after deer as others in the RF did. And when it rained as it often does in Scotland walks in heather under a grey sky aren't very pleasurable either.

If she had enjoyed riding ponies or horses that would have been some compensation, but even after she got on a horse again after her marriage it was a rare occurrence.

amabel · September 11, 2019, 06:58:15 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 10, 2019, 07:51:23 PM

Valium was certainly not the solution.

It is certainly very strange why they did not recommend her to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place. I don't think that Diana hid her illness to such an extent that her family didn't notice. After all, they had experience of it because of Sara. And if even her friends noticed, surely her family must've too.

It's baffling to say the least.

No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 06:58:49 AM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 10:56:55 PM
she still went to Balmoral until the separation.

she didn't have any choice. Charles went and she was expected to go as well..

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:01:55 AM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 04:24:41 PM
Valium can be addictive. Fact.

Starting them can lead to addiction.

Why would I ask the sister? And this was all the way back in 1981-82.

Bullimia symptoms can be observed. And eating disorders apparently ran in her family.

No, it can't. If you take them for a time, there is a possibliyt of becoming addicted, which is why doctors will monitor taking them.. and not precribe them for long periods. Diana didn't take them for long because she got pregnant. if she hadn't, the doctors would have checked her out after a short pierod of time and seen if they were doing her any good..and might change her to other tablets. They could not "cure" her or send her to a psychotherapist unless she was willing to cooperate with the doctor and talk abuot her probems.

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:49:05 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 11, 2019, 05:32:03 AM
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 05:32:16 AM

This is a article with pictures of a shoot she went to

Princess Diana is seen on a shoot in candid photos | Daily Mail Online

I don't think she hated country life. She grew up in Norfolk, if i'm not mistaken? And then there are even pictures of her riding, on her fathers estate. I think it's possible to love city life and enjoy the country now and then.

I think the reason she felt bad sometimes was because of the situation in her marriage. She was perhaps the only one wanting to tackle the problem head on. IMO.

N

Quote from: Curryong on September 11, 2019, 06:29:02 AM
Diana did love Norfolk when she was at Wood Farm on the Sandringham estate as a child. (Btw she fell of a horse there and broke her leg. It gave her a fear of horses and she hardly ever rode again.)

There's a bit of a difference with messing around on your father's country estate with your family around you and with your father hosting the occasional shoot with friends, to being penned in with people with whom you're not particularly congenial, where formality rules inside the home. It's a question of degree. The very walls at Balmoral are decorated with many deer antlers.

At Balmoral and at Sandringham in those days there were several changes of clothes undertaken every day, dinner was a formal occasion, and the talk over the table was almost always of game birds shot, deer stalked, fish caught etc.

Diana was a country girl and was quite used to shoots. However I don't know that she was ever obsessed with salmon fishing, for instance, as her husband was, or liked crawling on her belly after deer as others in the RF did. And when it rained as it often d

I think she liked it as a girl because it was her familiar home and she was used to it. But as she grew up, she longed for more citified diversions, like shops and movies. I think she began to find the rainy climate in Scotland particularly off putting and to feel that there was nothing to do in the country (whether at Highgrove or Balmoral) but go for wlaks in the rain. In London, she had friens nearby - she coudl meet them easily and go out to restuarants and parties.. For exercises there were gyms, swimming pools, and tennis.. stuff that mostly didn't involve outdoor chilly weather.
She did watch Charles shooting and fishing during her courtship but she went off it after her marriage.. so I can imagine the RF began to feel that she had been playng along during her courtship and was now revealing her real distaste for country life and blood sports.
And yes the extreme formality of life at Royal households esp Balmoral got to her. Changing clothes frequently... listening to them all banging on about the shooting and being bored stiff. And having to do everything formally when she had been used to a much simpler more informal way of life...

Curryong · September 11, 2019, 11:08:42 AM

With the references to Dr Lipsedge and why Sarah didn't recommend him to her sister we seem again to be in unknown territory. Why didn't Sarah ask Disna to be her bridesmaid in May 1980? Diana's romance with Charles hadnt begun by then, so why not?

So many questions! Why didn't Frances, who had apparently been so eager to rush Sarah off to specialists not do the same for Diana? I'm sure she suspected something was wrong.

Why didn't Frances, who had been married unhappily at eighteen to a man twelve years older, not warn her daughter about some of the complications of having that sort of an age gap and about living the country lifestyle and pursuits it was known that Charles liked and Diana wasn't so keen on? I mean, Frances had felt buried in Norfolk.

And why didn't she try to help the Charles/Diana marriage when she saw her youngest daughter start to flounder, around the time of her second child being born?

Robert Fellowes was close to the RF as a senior courtier. Why didn't he and/or Jane warn Diana about Camilla and Charles still being in thrall to her before she considered marriage to the POW? There seem to be so many disconnects in the Spencer family, so many gaps in our knowledge. I wish someone would write a knowledgable book about Diana's relationship with her mother and siblings.

amabel · September 11, 2019, 11:32:14 AM

Sarah Spencer said that "we'd like to talk to Diana" about her weight loss.. to a journalist.. but its not clear if she ever did do so. James Colthurst who was a doctor said that he knew Di was bulimic when he renewed his friendship with her a few years into her marriage but he said something like "you coudlnt' say anything to her- she was so vulnerable". People with bulimia are good at keeping it a secret so that many of those close to them don't know what's going on unless they are experts..
Diana lost a lot of weight but she was eating normally even avidly at times.. so the odds re that people just thought "she is dieting too much".. that she was eating a lot at times and then starving herself..
As time progressed, I think people close to her began to get an idea that she was throwing up her meals.. but Diana probably gave off a vibe of "don't talk to me about it.." or shied away from them gently trying to probe her about it. If she wasn't ready to talk, there was nothing anyone, even a specialist could do...

sandy · September 11, 2019, 01:39:39 PM

Of course a specialist could do something. Suppose a person is in denial about having an illness and goes to the doctor. The doctor finds it and would treat the problem. Lipsedge was Sarah's doctor I still don't know why he was not referred to Diana by Sarah. Diana had great rapport with Lipsedge who deal with the issue and just did not send her to a pharmacist for valium .

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 01:41:53 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 11, 2019, 06:58:15 AM
No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 06:58:49 AM

she didn't have any choice. Charles went and she was expected to go as well..
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:01:55 AM

No, it can't. If you take them for a time, there is a possibliyt of becoming addicted, which is why doctors will monitor taking them.. and not precribe them for long periods. Diana didn't take them for long because she got pregnant. if she hadn't, the doctors would have checked her out after a short pierod of time and seen if they were doing her any good..and might change her to other tablets. They could not "cure" her or send her to a psychotherapist unless she was willing to cooperate with the doctor and talk abuot her probems.
Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:49:05 AM

NI think she liked it as a girl because it was her familiar home and she was used to it. But as she grew up, she longed for more citified diversions, like shops and movies. I think she began to find the rainy climate in Scotland particularly off putting and to feel that there was nothing to do in the country (whether at Highgrove or Balmoral) but go for wlaks in the rain. In London, she had friens nearby - she coudl meet them easily and go out to restuarants and parties.. For exercises there were gyms, swimming pools, and tennis.. stuff that mostly didn't involve outdoor chilly weather.
She did watch Charles shooting and fishing during her courtship but she went off it after her marriage.. so I can imagine the RF began to feel that she had been playng along during her courtship and was now revealing her real distaste for country life and blood sports.
And yes the extreme formality of life at Royal households esp Balmoral got to her. Changing clothes frequently... listening to them all banging on about the shooting and being bored stiff. And having to do everything formally when she had been used to a much simpler more informal way of life...

Anorexia is an Eating Disorder like Bulimia. Lipsedge apparently could treat both anorexia and bulimia. Both also seem focused on body image where a woman feels she is "heavy" and "must lose weight" even though she's super t hin.

Diana liked the country and enjoyed walks at Balmoral, there are photos of her doing so. The one who was "faking it" to me was Prince Charles who later confessed he preferred Camilla when he married Diana.

Plus as I have said, Diana was quite ill the first year and had morning sickness. It was the royals problem if they did not "understand" this.

amabel · September 11, 2019, 02:24:27 PM

ALl Diana had to do was to tell her doctor that she wanted to see Lipsedge and I doubt if he would have refused to refer her for treatment or that Lipsedge would have refused to treat her.
But he could not treat her without her being willing to talk about the illness and admit there was a problem. According to Colthursts who is a doctor.. it wasn't easy to get Diana to admit she had a problem and be willing to talk about it. I don't know how you think a therapist can treat someone who is refusing to speak about her problems.

sandy · September 11, 2019, 02:31:35 PM

Diana may not have been aware of Lipsedge. I don't know the state of communication between Sarah and Diana but isn't it the patient who already saw the doctor and liked him to recommend the doctor. Diana never met Lipsedge and Charles was dating Sarah during her anorexia issues and surely HE would have known about Lipsedge yet he sends Van Der Post.

Diana did get help amabel. And become healthy and led a healthy lifestyle I don't know why she's criticized this way. She also was under a great deal of stress for many reasons mostly the marital problems

amabel · September 11, 2019, 02:41:36 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 02:31:35 PM
Diana may not have been aware of Lipsedge. I don't know the state of communication between Sarah and Diana but isn't it the patient who already saw the doctor and liked him to recommend the doctor. Diana never met Lipsedge and Charles was dating Sarah during her anorexia issues and surely HE would have known about Lipsedge yet he sends Van Der Post.

Diana did get help amabel. And become healthy and led a healthy lifestyle I don't know why she's criticized this way. She also was under a great deal of stress for many reasons mostly the marital problems

So if she wasn't aware of Lipsedge how come she ended up seeing him??
If she talked to the doctors she saw about her compulsions to vomit and to binge eat and half starve herself, they would have suggested a therapist who specialised in eating disorders. Then she would have seen someone who would have dicussed her issues with her.
Colthurst seems to have realised that she had bulimia but he was a doctor and he felt that it was dificiult to get her into treatment. ANd unless she was willing to go to a psychotherapist and speak about her illness, there was no chance of her recovering....

sandy · September 11, 2019, 03:22:24 PM

That detail was never revealed, amabel. maybe Sarah told her or maybe Diana's primary care doctor referred her. Diana mentioned she started seeing him.

Colthurst was also a friend of hers. Maybe she did not want to see a doctor who was also her friend.

This is water under the bridge anyway. Diana got the help she needed. Charles bungled it and for one reason or another had doctors that gave her pills. If he were so smart, how come he did not get the right treatments. She did see those doctors.

amabel · September 11, 2019, 03:28:30 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:22:24 PM
That detail was never revealed, amabel. maybe Sarah told her or maybe Diana's primary care doctor referred her. Diana mentioned she started seeing him.

Colthurst was also a friend of hers. Maybe she did not want to see a doctor who was also her friend.

This is water under the bridge anyway. Diana got the help she needed. Charles bungled it and for one reason or another had doctors that gave her pills. If he were so smart, how come he did not get the right treatments. She did see those doctors.

Yes she saw the doctors.. and they prescribed Valium. Which was the standard drug for anxiety. It had nothing to do with Charles.
If she had told the doctors that she had compulisions to throw up her food, they would have referred her to a therapist who specialised in eating disorders. Then she would have been treated with probably a combination of drugs and psyhchotherapy.
Of course Colthurst was not going to treat her himself.. He was among the friends who persuaded her to seek treatment. But it clearly took time before her friends were albe to persuade her that she needed to see someone

sandy · September 11, 2019, 03:30:03 PM

Charles found the doctors. This is a well known fact. He had them come and make housecalls and he brought Diana to London.

He even brought Van Der Post.

Diana still got the treatment she needed.

amabel · September 11, 2019, 03:33:32 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:30:03 PM
Charles found the doctors. This is a well known fact. He had them come and make housecalls and he brought Diana to London.

He even brought Van Der Post.

Diana still got the treatment she needed.

and Diana saw the doctors. She only had to speak to them about her illness and they would have known more about what the problems were.

sandy · September 11, 2019, 03:46:20 PM

She did speak to them in 1981-82 there was a diagnosis made where the doctors prescribed Valium Wrong treatment. And the doctors were remiss,

amabel · September 11, 2019, 04:29:43 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:46:20 PM
She did speak to them in 1981-82 there was a diagnosis made where the doctors prescribed Valium Wrong treatment. And the doctors were remiss,

how were the doctors remiss? Diana did not talk about her bulimia. It is clear that for some time she continued to believe that she was concealing it from people, like most bulimics...and according to James Colthurst who was a friend and a doctor, it was impossisbe to talk to her about it...

oak_and_cedar · September 11, 2019, 07:17:27 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 11, 2019, 06:58:15 AM
No, its not that surprssiing. Sarah had Anorexia -,not Bulimia. and Bulimia is a secret illness which the sufferer tends to hide. Soemtimes they do not lose tat much weight and since they seem to be eating normally, it is hard for someone else to know what is going on. Diana lost a lot of weight eventually but she seemed to eat normally at least some of the time and her family were probably confused as to what was going on. It took some time for her friends to persuade her to seek help

But anoxeria is an eating disorder too. People with anoxeria throw up too, and someone in her family must have recognized those symptoms at least.

And her losing alot of weight should also have been a reason for her family to take it seriously.

It took the efforts of friend, who had threatened to go the media, for Diana to do something. Just astonishing IMO.

Double post auto-merged: September 11, 2019, 07:27:41 PM

Quote from: Curryong on September 11, 2019, 11:08:42 AM
With the references to Dr Lipsedge and why Sarah didn't recommend him to her sister we seem again to be in unknown territory. Why didn't Sarah ask Disna to be her bridesmaid in May 1980? Diana's romance with Charles hadnt begun by then, so why not?

So many questions! Why didn't Frances, who had apparently been so eager to rush Sarah off to specialists not do the same for Diana? I'm sure she suspected something was wrong.

Why didn't Frances, who had been married unhappily at eighteen to a man twelve years older, not warn her daughter about some of the complications of having that sort of an age gap and about living the country lifestyle and pursuits it was known that Charles liked and Diana wasn't so keen on? I mean, Frances had felt buried in Norfolk.

And why didn't she try to help the Charles/Diana marriage when she saw her youngest daughter start to flounder, around the time of her second child being born?

Robert Fellowes was close to the RF as a senior courtier. Why didn't he and/or Jane warn Diana about Camilla and Charles still being in thrall to her before she considered marriage to the POW? There seem to be so many disconnects in the Spencer family, so many gaps in our knowledge. I wish someone would write a knowledgable book about Diana's relationship with her mother and siblings.

I do wonder sometimes if Diana wasn't bullied by her family, although i'm not sure if that's the right word. It's almost like they were dismissive or treated her as "less than".

In Frances defence, wasn't she happy when she got married? I thought that it was the pressure of having a son that contributed to the disintegration of the marriage.

I also read somewhere that she got along with PC, but also stood up for Diana when PC made a remark about PH saying he should be grateful for having a healthy child.

Maybe her sisters were more concerned about her royal status so to speak, and did not want to jeopardize it? IMO. Was there jealousy involved too even early on? Who knows.

I wonder what earl Spencer's role in all of this was? I personally don't buy that he was this easygoing, affable gent that was harmless. I think he could be difficult behind closed doors IMO.