The Tudors 1485-1603 Henry VII -Elizabeth I

[amabel]

I was under the impression that Catherine de Medici sent her own doctors to check Elizabeth out when she was being courted by Alencon.  They found her a virgin and perfectly capable of bearing children.

I don't beelive so.  They might have asked for reports from Eliz's own doctors who did say she was capable of having children.  I can't see that Eliz a sovereign queen would submit to examinations by foreign doctors./.

[FanDianaFancy]

I  agree with Eri, cindycinrit, Lowthen, Limabeany. :clap:

There was unreliable BC. Abortions and having a  baby  were  both death sentences.
Being married   and being Q  would have been a death  sentence  too  with  her husband, P or Lord or Duke wanting to be K , and plotting to be K  and  plotting to have her killed.
Being married  and being Q  was  a death sentence  because who  could  she have married? Jesus Christ had already died  at that time. The Apostles too.  LOL! 
Being  a  mother would  have kiled her because  if the  birth  did not, then the  male child  could have  grown up to plot  against her  in order to  be K. Kill her. Have her imprisoned at the Tower.  If a daughter, same thing to be  Q and with plotting  against  others to  send her mother, QEI, to the Tower...etc.


Being a woman back then in childbirth was a  death sentence, a  gamble.
For  QEI, life in general was a  death sentence and  she took all  measures, even forgoing  personal happiness, to  stay alive for as long as she could. She  did  stay alive as  P and as Q  and  died a  bald headed, toothless, acid  facial   fan (pre plastic surgery)  LOL, woman  titled Q.  She died on her own terms of natural causes at an old age  for then.  :happy15:


Back to thread....
I think  QEI  as the Young Princes Elizabeth  was her father's daughter all the way: mean streak  :pullhair:, smart  :Lothwen: politcally, looks, etc.
I think her history was, as  we  are  child  knowledgable today, can  say that  her mother's beheading by  her father,  she being  declared a bast- - -, her half-sister Mary's mother  being banished, her various other   stepmothers, the  long wanted boy child and his  special treatment, his death, and  her  case of middle child syndrome, LOL,  well, yeah, with all that  and more , who needed to be married and have children.  She was totally a victim of her bad childhood.  Mostly bad.
Add the  time as an older girl, mid teens  or so, she almost  died  because  of trumped up charges, rumor  of  treason, etc.  I  cannot recall the story  right now, but  you all know it.  She was  living with her dear At Mary, and  step uncle...something happened.
Shewasthisclose to losing her head .

I think she may have had actually  sex. Some kind  of way.  Could she have done something to prevent having a  pregnancy  like a hysterectonmy?  Yes. All  kinds of things done now, (BC, abortion, hysterectonmy, etc.)  was done then, although primitive.
She did not, could  not have had any of  this done because it  would have  been said , rumored some sort of way during her life and certainly  after her death at least.  Being QEII  and even before that, PE, she was so inspected. Never alone.  Ladies -in-waiting.  Etc.
She  most definitely could have  lots of   other ways  with Dudley without sex. Probably did.
Who really knows??!?!?!?

Separate subject.
Lets say  she  did  take all these  precautions and did,  I do not  think the courtiers, enemies, etc. could have banished  her from the throne. She was born HRH. Sort  of like  what we discussed about CPB,PC, PD,   and the rules like that did apply  to PAnne, PMaragaret, etc.
.

[Eri]

I think she had sex no doubt about it in my mind ... the term ''virgin Queen" comes from the fact she never married not because she was a virgin ... no one has claimed she was a virgin in fact there were rumors about her and her step father Seymor since she was a teen ...

[Curryong]

Thomas Seymour was dead by the time Elizabeth was sixteen, though. Seymour was nearly 40 when he started flirting with Elizabeth who was then about 14. He was extremely ambitious and she may have learned a lesson from the way he behaved.

[HistoryGirl]

I have a hard time believing that after everything her mother, step-mothers, sister, and fellow queens at the time went through, Elizabeth would throw it all away for a dalliance. If nothing else she was pragmatic and thought through her decisions carefully which is what made her a successful queen.

[amabel]

I think she had sex no doubt about it in my mind ... the term ''virgin Queen" comes from the fact she never married not because she was a virgin ... no one has claimed she was a virgin in fact there were rumors about her and her step father Seymor since she was a teen ...

yes people HAVE  claimed she was a virgin...and she almost certainly was.  Seymour was indiscreet but he would be a crazy fool to tamper with a royal virgin, and what he wanted to do, was to marry her, not have sex with her.  He probably hoped by luring her into sexual infatuation with him, to get her into a frame of mind that she would wish to marry hm and since he had influence over her brother, Edward, he would get royal consent to the marriage.  later on she had learned far too much about men and how to deal with them, and never to trust them...so she would hardly risk her throne for any man living.

[Eri]

^ Wasn't he The King's UNCLE? Anyways ... what I was trying to say is that there were rumors about her since she was a teen so not everyone bought in on the "virgin" spin ...

[Curryong]

Thomas Seymour was the King's uncle, though no blood relation to Elizabeth. He was her stepfather, as Katherine Parr had loved him for years and married him not long after Henry's death. (She died in childbirth.) Elizabeth wasn't sleeping with Seymour in her teens. He flirted with her, tickled her. His wife was sometimes present and joined in the horseplay so it didn't go any further. (She knew what Seymour was like.) It was only when Seymour had Elizabeth in his arms and Katherine saw them that Elizabeth was sent away.

[amabel]

^ Wasn't he The King's UNCLE? Anyways ... what I was trying to say is that there were rumors about her since she was a teen so not everyone bought in on the "virgin" spin ...

we are not talking of "everyone". Or at least I wasn't'.  I'm talking bout historians who have studied Elizabeth and who are pretty certain that her being the Virgin queen was the real truth

[cinrit]

^ Wasn't he The King's UNCLE? Anyways ... what I was trying to say is that there were rumors about her since she was a teen so not everyone bought in on the "virgin" spin ... 

He was Edward's uncle, being the brother of Henry VIII's third wife and mother of Edward, Jane Seymour.

Cindy

[amabel]

and of course Catherine' Parr's husband and so Elizabeth's stepfather.  To Eiri, there are always rumours about most royal women - and men.  There were stories of Anne Boleyn, that she had several lovers, but virtually nobody believes them.  Elizabeth was Young and a bit foolish with Tom Seymour, but Kath Parr did make sure that she was protected from any molestation and when it was obvious that Tom was a bit infatuated with the girl and she with him, she sent Eliz away so as to protect her reputation.

[Limabeany]

New Statesman | Why did Anne Boleyn have to die?

Anne caught Henry's eye some time in late 1525 or early 1526. By this time, the king had been married to the Spanish Catherine of Aragon for over fifteen years and, after six pregnancies, only a single child had survived, and that was a daughter: Mary. Henry had fathered one illegitimate son and bedded Anne's married sister before the sophisticated beauty arrived at the English court. Educated in the Netherlands and France, the dark-eyed Anne was intelligent and stylish, in contrast to the much older Catherine, then past her fortieth birthday. In anticipation of more children, Henry instigated the divorce proceedings that would result in his breach with the Roman Catholic church, the displacement of an anointed Queen and his own excommunication.

All this for Anne. As if to make his point, Henry probably married her twice, first at the end of 1532, and again the following January. She quickly fell pregnant but the child she bore in September 1533 was not the longed-for son, but a daughter, Elizabeth. She had at least one other miscarriage in the following years, before falling pregnant again in the autumn of 1535. In spite of the efforts of various historians to claim they were virtually doomed from the start, Henry and Anne's marriage still seemed strong as they celebrated the arrival of 1536. Then, in January, Henry suffered a fall while riding and, shortly after, Anne miscarried a male child. The King was diverted by Jane Seymour, but none of this guaranteed Anne's fall and as late as April, the royal pair were planning a joint trip to Calais. They appeared to quarrel at the end of the month, with one observer noting the Queen holding her daughter, apparently begging with Henry through an open window. Then, on 2 May, Anne was arrested and taken to the Tower. The swordsman may have been summoned as early as a week later, given that he had to cross the Channel, making it clear that her death was planned. On May 14, the marriage was declared null and void, but the following day, Anne was charged with treason, adultery and incest. It was a foregone conclusion. She met her death within four days.

So why did Anne have to die? No other English Queen had been treated in this way. When Catherine had stubbornly opposed divorce, she was sent away from court and Henry went ahead and remarried anyway. Even anointed Queens could be accommodated, no matter how bitterly they complained. Other options were available, such as retirement into a monastery, or Anne could have lived out the rest of her natural life in the courts of Europe. Adultery and incest were not verdicts that carried the death sentence. In any case, the charge of "incontinent living" has been disproved by the research of Alison Weir as, on the majority of dates, Anne or her supposed lovers, were elsewhere. If Henry believed Anne guilty, this gave him the perfect excuse to dismiss her and few would have blamed him. If she was at the heart of a political coup, masterminded by Thomas Cromwell, or the Seymours, or too vocal an advocate of religious reform, the execution was still an unprecedented step. Someone wanted her out of the way, but not just out of sight. There had to be no comeback. It seems that there was one main reason that Anne had to die and that was that Henry himself wanted her to.

[Curryong]

An excellent article, a good all-round summing-up of this tyrannical man and his relationships, especially with Anne.

[HistoryGirl]

I'm disappointed this article glosses over the importance of Henry needing a son in the context of what his father had gone through during the Wars with the Roses and how scared Henry was of a civil war breaking out over a contested successor and how that may have contributed to his choices.

[TLLK]

I believe that Henry VII was constantly plagued with concerns about the throne he'd captured at the Battle of Bosworth Field. Marriage to the York heiress Elisabeth and the arrival of four surviving children including two sons never seemed to give him confidence that the Tudor dynasty would continue. There was always the question of a "pretender" claiming to be Edward V or Richard of York appearing plus the Spanish required the death of Edward (Teddy) of Warwick before permitting Catherine to come to England to marry Arthur. Arthur's early death must have weighed heavily on Henry VII's mind and undoubtedly his formidable mother Margaret Beaufort. Both must have impressed upon the new heir Henry VIII the need to secure the throne with a male heir and spare. Two of Henry's surviving children (Mary/Edward) never enjoyed good health especially Edward and this must have concerned him regarding the future of the Tudor line.

[KaTerina Montague]

I am under the impression that the notion that Edward wasn't healthy is a false hood and that he was quite healthy until he became I'll for the last time. I am not sure but I think Mary's illnesses had more to do with stress.
I sometimes wonder how much Henry's marriages were about the son issue, if it was all about having more sons he shoukd have jumped on Anne of Cleves, to heck with how attractive she was or wasnt. What's the saying? Close your eyes and think of England?
I also doubt Henry was really all that handsome, it seems to be more perception than reality. When he became king he wasn't the youngest so that automatically puts him ahead of thr old men. Then Francis came along and he had a nose like a parrots beak, then Charles comes on the stage with his deformed Hapsburg lip; Henry is the most handsome by default.

[Curryong]

I am under the impression that the notion that Edward wasn't healthy is a false hood and that he was quite healthy until he became I'll for the last time. I am not sure but I think Mary's illnesses had more to do with stress.
I sometimes wonder how much Henry's marriages were about the son issue, if it was all about having more sons he shoukd have jumped on Anne of Cleves, to heck with how attractive she was or wasnt. What's the saying? Close your eyes and think of England?
I also doubt Henry was really all that handsome, it seems to be more perception than reality. When he became king he wasn't the youngest so that automatically puts him ahead of thr old men. Then Francis came along and he had a nose like a parrots beak, then Charles comes on the stage with his deformed Hapsburg lip; Henry is the most handsome by default.

I think Henry was genuinely regarded as a good looking man by onlookers. Standards of beauty in Tudor England were of course different to ours. Blonde hair was admired and Henry was a strawberry blond. Yes he had a rather hook nose (which Elizabeth inherited) and a small mouth. However, he was tall for those times and athletic, so had a good physique. He was young and active and sporty. This probably added to his attractiveness.

[cinrit]

Henry, in his youth, was definitely considered a good-looking man by the standards of his time.  By the time he was 40, though, he was beginning to show the worse for wear.  His suits of armor in the Tower of London tell the sad story....

Cindy

[KaTerina Montague]

I have the book The Creation of Anne Boleyn and I love it. It is a good book and well writtrn. I like to see how thr image of Anne has changed throughout the years. I didn't like that it ended with the idea that Chapuys interpretation of her is making a comeback. I hope another swing towards the positive happens soon.
Anne was a smart woman but she had no imagination, she didn't see that what Henry did to Katharine could be done to her. She never imagined that she wouldnt have a son despite that she was steadily getting older. Her only powerful ally by the time of her marriage was Henry; she put all her eggs in one basket aND it backfired horribly. Katharine had the nobility, the common people, the church, and the Emperor.

[amabel]

I have the book The Creation of Anne Boleyn and I love it. It is a good book and well writtrn. I like to see how thr image of Anne has changed throughout the years. I didn't like that it ended with the idea that Chapuys interpretation of her is making a comeback. I hope another swing towards the positive happens soon.
Anne was a smart woman but she had no imagination, she didn't see that what Henry did to Katharine could be done to her. She never imagined that she wouldnt have a son despite that she was steadily getting older. Her only powerful ally by the time of her marriage was Henry; she put all her eggs in one basket aND it backfired horribly. Katharine had the nobility, the common people, the church, and the Emperor.

I should say that once she had committed to the King (and I do think it wasn't easy to avoid him esp when he was offering marriage rather than an affair), there wasn't much she could do.  She probably did worry about having a son, but what could she do about it other thank keep on hoping.  She probably didn't think, any more than Henry did, that she would have to wait 6 years for a  divorce, and that her child bearing years would be wasted in waiting.. antoehr reason she was angry with Wolsey. She could have been more gentel and less aggressive and then she might have had more popular and noble support, but she was hot tempered and had a hard streak, and so found it hard perhaps to conciliate people...

[KaTerina Montague]

Henry, in his youth, was definitely considered a good-looking man by the standards of his time.  By the time he was 40, though, he was beginning to show the worse for wear.  His suits of armor in the Tower of London tell the sad story....

Cindy

I know he was considered good looking in his youth, I am disputing whether he really was that good looking. Pictures of him before he got fat don't show a very good looking man imo. I guess attractivenews has changed over the centuries but Jane Seymour was said to be average at best by her contemporaries and I must say I agree. I just wonder if all the talk about how good looking he was was more hype than honesty. I also don't find Edward IV all that good looking and people went gaga for him as well.

I didn't have a problem with The Tudors not again Henry (or anyone) until season 4. I feel Catherine was an idiot but I do think Henry's physique and ill  health should have been shown because I think it is a part of Catherine's story; a teenage girl married to a man old enough to be her grandfather who may or may not be able to perform. Instead they just wrote Catherine as a harlot/nympho who jumps anyone with a semi pretty face.

[cate1949]

Edward had TB - as did Henry's older brother Arthur - it is often referred to as the "Tudor disease" because so many Tudor's had it and it was so common at the time

So I suspect Edward was never robust.

[KaTerina Montague]

What did Henry Fitzroy die of? Edward may not have been robust but that doesn't mean he was sickly. Again I am not saying this is fact but I recall reading somwe here that he was not particularly ill as a child. But at the same time Arthur Henry Fitroy and Edward all died at around the same age.

[Macrobug]

Some lung disease- likely TB.

I don't think Arthur died of TB - I thought he had the sweating sickness

[Curryong]

What did Henry Fitzroy die of? Edward may not have been robust but that doesn't mean he was sickly. Again I am not saying this is fact but I recall reading somwe here that he was not particularly ill as a child. But at the same time Arthur Henry Fitroy and Edward all died at around the same age.

I thought Henry Fitzroy died of 'consumption' (tuberculosis) though so much was mis-diagnosed then. It was reported that he had consumption in early July, and died before the end of the month.

Edward died by inches really, he suffered terribly. He had the measles and the smallpox in April 1552, and had a 'straining cough' after his supposed recovery. Dr Cardano diagnosed tuberculosis when he visited him in September (and secretly cast his horoscope, which forecast 'a great calamity'. Edward was virtually bed-ridden by Christmas.