Princes William and Harry to learn 'truth’ of Diana murder claims

Started by PrincessOfPeace, December 02, 2013, 05:58:35 AM

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sandy

#75
May 11, 2014, 05:09:53 PM Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 05:13:12 PM by sandy
Quote from: Queen Camilla on May 11, 2014, 03:05:27 AM
Sandy, don't know where you are but very few people are airlifted.

Not many cities, even large urban ones can afford helicopters for each crash victim.

Helicopters are usually stationed only in certain areas so the time it would take from getting the call to arriving at the scene would probably be longer than a traditional ambulance so most rely on standard ambulances. 

I don't know where you are but whenever there are severe accidents there is indeed airlifting. In most cases too where there are severe injuries. Not every injury is traumatic so not every single injury patient is airlifted.
Double post auto-merged: May 11, 2014, 05:12:06 PM


Quote from: TLLK on May 11, 2014, 03:40:06 AM
Quote from: Queen Camilla on May 11, 2014, 03:05:27 AM
Sandy, don't know where you are but very few people are airlifted.

Not many cities, even large urban ones can afford helicopters for each crash victim.

Helicopters are usually stationed only in certain areas so the time it would take from getting the call to arriving at the scene would probably be longer than a traditional ambulance so most rely on standard ambulances. 
Agreed. Trying to land a helicopter in that area would have been very difficult.  Also a doctor was on board the ambulance so Diana was receiving care from a physician.

Nothing is "difficult" if getting a severely injured patient the proper care. Everything is "difficult" in treatment of patients. Does that mean people should not bother?

The doctor on board had no access to the equipment found in a hospital so it was not the same.
Double post auto-merged: May 11, 2014, 05:13:12 PM


Quote from: TLLK on May 10, 2014, 06:20:56 PM
^^^Which from looking at the crash photos appears to be a realistic time frame for the firefighters to do their job as quickly as possible.

One other bit of information that I have yet to see in the discussion is that there was a physician and nurse in the ambulance aiding Diana, not just emergency technicians. The physician would be the one making the decision on the scene to stop and stabilize Diana, not just technicians acting on the orders of a doctor at the hospital.

Doctors can make awful decisions. That's why there are malpractice cases and insurance. This decision was atrocious.

amabel

#76
May 12, 2014, 06:06:42 AM
Quote from: Limabeany on May 11, 2014, 02:00:33 PM
She certainly wasn't cracking jokes with them and drinking scotch in the ambulance. They should have known they should have been hurrying and not counting the cracks in the pavement...  :shrug:
what do you suggest they did when she went into cardiac arrest in the ambulance? 

Limabeany

#77
May 12, 2014, 11:01:21 AM
What they didn't do is rush to the hospital and since the French ambulance service isn't revolutionizing the world with this new modality, it is safe to say, it was not a recommendable decision...
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

cinrit

#78
May 12, 2014, 11:27:10 AM
When CPR is performed, it must be done on a firm, steady surface.  A moving ambulance, whether speeding or not, is not steady.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

sandy

#79
May 12, 2014, 01:38:25 PM
Quote from: Limabeany on May 12, 2014, 11:01:21 AM
What they didn't do is rush to the hospital and since the French ambulance service isn't revolutionizing the world with this new modality, it is safe to say, it was not a recommendable decision...

I don't get why some on the thread think the "treatment" of a slow ambulance is "best." 

cinrit

#80
May 12, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
No one has said that the ambulance was slow.  But there are those who believe that the French followed their normal method, which is to stabilize the patient before leaving for the hospital, and therefore didn't deliberately delay getting Diana to a trauma center.  There are also those who understand why the ambulance had to stop when Diana's blood pressure dropped and the chance of her going into cardiac arrest again was real.

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Macrobug

#81
May 12, 2014, 04:34:02 PM
Different countries have different philosophies regarding emergency care.  Here in Canada we have the scoop and go idea.  The paramedics treat according to symptom but the idea is to get the patient to the hospital ASAP.   In France they have the SMUR system in which physicians ride with the ambulance and the patient is stabilized on site. 
There are advantages for both.  I have worked in both types of settings (we had no choice but to try to stabilized patients up north - the air ambulances could be hours before arriving)  I prefer to get the patient to the hospital quickly but SMUR is basically a trauma unit on wheels. France has been using that system for a long time and Diana's death didn't change anything, so they obviously have faith in it.   She had significant internal damage and there was little chance of survival whether she was treated on site or rushed to the hospital.
GNU Terry Pratchett

sandy

#82
May 12, 2014, 05:27:38 PM
There was no advantage for Diana being in that slow ambulance ride and not getting to the hospital in a timelier fashion. They may have faith in it but if I saw one of my friends or relatives who needed to get to the hospital be put in a slow ambulance I would fear for t heir lives.
Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2014, 05:29:17 PM


Quote from: cinrit on May 12, 2014, 02:12:27 PM
No one has said that the ambulance was slow.  But there are those who believe that the French followed their normal method, which is to stabilize the patient before leaving for the hospital, and therefore didn't deliberately delay getting Diana to a trauma center.  There are also those who understand why the ambulance had to stop when Diana's blood pressure dropped and the chance of her going into cardiac arrest again was real.

Cindy

Cindy, who is "no one?" I have ready many articles discussing the slow ambulance and even posted something written about Dr. Barnard criticizing the slow ride. Cindy, it is not correct that "no one" complained about the length of time it took Diana to get to that hospital.

cinrit

#83
May 12, 2014, 06:03:07 PM
Sandy, I meant no one at this forum.  I was responding to your post, in which you said:

"I don't get why some on the thread think the "treatment" of a slow ambulance is "best."

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

TLLK

#84
May 12, 2014, 06:08:19 PM
Quote from: Macrobug on May 12, 2014, 04:34:02 PM
Different countries have different philosophies regarding emergency care.  Here in Canada we have the scoop and go idea.  The paramedics treat according to symptom but the idea is to get the patient to the hospital ASAP.   In France they have the SMUR system in which physicians ride with the ambulance and the patient is stabilized on site. 
There are advantages for both.  I have worked in both types of settings (we had no choice but to try to stabilized patients up north - the air ambulances could be hours before arriving)  I prefer to get the patient to the hospital quickly but SMUR is basically a trauma unit on wheels. France has been using that system for a long time and Diana's death didn't change anything, so they obviously have faith in it.   She had significant internal damage and there was little chance of survival whether she was treated on site or rushed to the hospital.
Thank you Macrobug for sharing you insight and experience with both types of emergency services systems. Also you've stated what the physician on board must have realized when her blood pressure was dropping so rapidly and what the surgeons discovered in the operating room, Diana's injuries were so severe that she would not have survived.

sandy

#85
May 12, 2014, 07:37:12 PM Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 07:44:10 PM by sandy
But you don't know this for sure. Nobody does really. It is all speculative. I think she'd have had a much better chance if she did not have the delay in getting to the hospital.
Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2014, 07:39:26 PM


Quote from: cinrit on May 12, 2014, 06:03:07 PM
Sandy, I meant no one at this forum.  I was responding to your post, in which you said:

"I don't get why some on the thread think the "treatment" of a slow ambulance is "best."

Cindy

I think you  are getting into hairsplitting and word games again Cindy.  Let's stick to the topic please. 

It is clear that there is disagreement on the thread. And indeed there had been criticism of the slowness of the ambulance both on the threads (and there were others) and in the media.

I don't get why some on the thread think the "treatment" of a slow ambulance is "best."  (my statement)

Your reply:

"No one has said that the ambulance was slow"

My statement said "best" yours said "slow" You in effect did not reply to my post. And clearly people on the thread besides me said the ambulance was slow.

So much time wasted on going off topic on word games.





Macrobug

#86
May 12, 2014, 07:59:27 PM Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 08:10:58 PM by Macrobug
From what I read, she had a pulmonary vein tear.  Not easily diagnosed, not easily treated and very poor outcome. 

It does not matter the speed of the ambulance.  The principles of trauma care is quick identification of the problem and treatment.  Some countries bring the patient to the trauma care, other countries take the trauma centre to the patient.  France has these mobile trauma centres.

France has been using this system for many years.  There has been many, many studies done regarding the different methodology of trauma care.  France has an excellent health care system, one of the best in the world.  If the trauma system they employed didn't work it would have been abandoned years ago.

The question is not the system but the actual care given.  Did the care givers attending Diana properly care for her.  Did they identify the injuries and did they treat them correctly.  Even if they did do every thing correctly her injuries were such that she couldn't survive.  I don't know.  I don't have access to the actual medical records.  I take anything reported with a huge grain of salt because reporters are not health care professions and quite frankly have no idea what they are talking about.

GNU Terry Pratchett

sandy

#87
May 12, 2014, 08:23:59 PM
Some physicians commented about the long time it took her to get to the hospital. It speaks volumes that Dr. Christian Barnard believed that  it made a difference.

Getting a person to the hospital in a very slow ambulance to me does not scream excellent healthcare.

Limabeany

#88
May 12, 2014, 08:41:18 PM
I don't know if the health care is the best in the world, but the ambulance service is certainly the slowest in the world...  :shrug:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

TLLK

#89
May 12, 2014, 08:42:10 PM
Quote from: Macrobug on May 12, 2014, 07:59:27 PM
From what I read, she had a pulmonary vein tear.  Not easily diagnosed, not easily treated and very poor outcome. 

It does not matter the speed of the ambulance.  The principles of trauma care is quick identification of the problem and treatment.  Some countries bring the patient to the trauma care, other countries take the trauma centre to the patient.  France has these mobile trauma centres.

France has been using this system for many years.  There has been many, many studies done regarding the different methodology of trauma care.  France has an excellent health care system, one of the best in the world.  If the trauma system they employed didn't work it would have been abandoned years ago.

The question is not the system but the actual care given.  Did the care givers attending Diana properly care for her.  Did they identify the injuries and did they treat them correctly.  Even if they did do every thing correctly her injuries were such that she couldn't survive.  I don't know.  I don't have access to the actual medical records.  I take anything reported with a huge grain of salt because reporters are not health care professions and quite frankly have no idea what they are talking about.


Excellent point Macrobug. I agree that if the French did not believe that their policies were working that they would have been abandoned.

Limabeany

#90
May 12, 2014, 08:45:19 PM
I don't think if it were a family member of any of us, we would find that time acceptable unless we live a jungle in Africa or Asia or the Amazon rainforest... :blank:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

Macrobug

#91
May 12, 2014, 08:57:07 PM Last Edit: May 12, 2014, 09:03:02 PM by Macrobug
That is because we are used to the scoop and go method.   Neither method is superior to the other. 
Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2014, 09:03:02 PM


Quote from: sandy on May 12, 2014, 08:23:59 PM
Some physicians commented about the long time it took her to get to the hospital. It speaks volumes that Dr. Christian Barnard believed that  it made a difference.

Getting a person to the hospital in a very slow ambulance to me does not scream excellent healthcare.

It was going slow because they were working on her doing exactly in-ambulance what they would be doing in-hospital!  I don't know how else to explain it.   In Canada, USA and UK we expect a fast trip via ambulance to the trauma centre then the care starting once the patient is in the trauma unit.  In France they start that care on site.  And once the patient is stable THEN they transfer.  It does have merit.
GNU Terry Pratchett

Limabeany

#92
May 12, 2014, 09:03:18 PM
I don't know, Macrobug, the method that gets the injured patient to the hospital where the actual doctors are is, IMO, the better one...  :shrug: An ambulance is not a motorcycle, they should certainly be able to do their best to stabilize the patient on their way to the hospital (where they should be headed at high speed and not a snail's pace...
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

Macrobug

#93
May 12, 2014, 09:34:29 PM
^the French method DOES have a doc(s) on board.  Vive la difference!
GNU Terry Pratchett

sandy

#94
May 12, 2014, 10:55:02 PM
It didn't save Diana. I would not Vive this difference!

cinrit

#95
May 12, 2014, 11:35:18 PM
There are car accident victims who don't make it to the hospital alive with the Scoop and Run method, either.  It's unfortunate, but not every patient can be saved with either method.  Very sadly, Diana was one who didn't make it.

Cindy

Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

sandy

#96
May 13, 2014, 12:38:26 AM
Diana had no choice and got the worst possible option for her situation.

Limabeany

#97
May 13, 2014, 12:54:24 AM
Quote from: cinrit on May 12, 2014, 11:35:18 PM
There are car accident victims who don't make it to the hospital alive with the Scoop and Run method, either.  It's unfortunate, but not every patient can be saved with either method.  Very sadly, Diana was one who didn't make it.

Cindy
Even sadder yet that the accident didn't occur in a country had a scoop-and-run policy but a get-to-hospital-whenever policy... I just find the time line inexcusable...  :shrug:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

TLLK

#98
May 13, 2014, 01:27:42 AM
Quote from: cinrit on May 12, 2014, 11:35:18 PM
There are car accident victims who don't make it to the hospital alive with the Scoop and Run method, either.  It's unfortunate, but not every patient can be saved with either method.  Very sadly, Diana was one who didn't make it.

Cindy


I have to agree. With the advances in modern medicine it can easily lead us to believe that doctors can save everyone. Sadly this is not the case.

Queen Camilla

#99
May 13, 2014, 06:11:25 AM
Princess Grace was not saved.

Prince Frisco was not saved.
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