Princes William and Harry to learn 'truth’ of Diana murder claims

Started by PrincessOfPeace, December 02, 2013, 05:58:35 AM

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SophieChloe

#50
May 09, 2014, 06:55:57 PM Last Edit: May 09, 2014, 06:59:15 PM by SophieChloe
They should have driven at the ultimate safe, speed -  and blue-lighted all the way....regardless of who was on board.  They did not, that will always raise questions.  Ambulances are meant to get patients to the place of safety as quickly as possible....they did not.     
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me

TLLK

#51
May 09, 2014, 11:00:48 PM
IMVHO the French policies were developed based upon their own experiences with transporting seriously injured patients to an awaiting hospital team. I understand that they are different than American and from what I've inferred British ones, however I do believe that they developed these policies after reviewing many cases. They formed what they believed would be the best plan to try and ensure patient survival. Unfortunately Diana's injuries were so severe it is very, very unlikely should would have survived any attempt to repair her severed blood vessels. 

Mike

#52
May 10, 2014, 01:42:59 AM Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 01:46:03 AM by Mike
I can't remember where I read it, but I saw a review by an American trauma surgeon after he read the accident and autopsy reports.  He felt Diana might have survived only if her car had crashed into a trauma center.  Her injuries were just too severe.
Mark Twain:
"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
and
"Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please."

Limabeany

#53
May 10, 2014, 03:47:05 AM Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:31:39 AM by Limabeany
I have worked in Colombia, the Dominican Republic, Haiti, Peru, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador and other 3rd world countries, the timeline for the ambulance arrival time is inexcusable and unacceptable... The likelihood of her surviving her injuries is irrelevant to the speed at which the ambulance should have traveled unless she died in it, which she didn't, they were simply shockingly slow... Why did they take that long at an hour with very little traffic? A reason other than the streets of Paris are bumpier than third world country streets, of course...
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

TLLK

#54
May 10, 2014, 05:34:36 AM Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 08:30:18 AM by Limabeany
^^^The only thing that I know if that in France the focus in on ensuring that the patient is stabilized during transport. If they go into cardiac arrest like Diana, then they believe it is preferable to stop and gain control of the patient before resuming the transport. It isn't what happens in the U.S.

(My friend has family in France with two physicians in the family. This is what she's explained to me and it matches what I read years ago regarding Diana's accident.)
Double post auto-merged: May 10, 2014, 08:30:18 AM


^^^Mike I have to agree.

amabel

#55
May 10, 2014, 01:14:03 PM
Quote from: TLLK on May 09, 2014, 11:00:48 PM
They formed what they believed would be the best plan to try and ensure patient survival. Unfortunately Diana's injuries were so severe it is very, very unlikely should would have survived any attempt to repair her severed blood vessels. 
They had to stop because Diana went inot cardiac arrest.  She would have died in the ambulance.

TLLK

#56
May 10, 2014, 05:04:55 PM
^^^Right and I mentioned it in my earlier post.  :)

Limabeany

#57
May 10, 2014, 05:06:27 PM Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 05:11:21 PM by Limabeany

Quote from: TLLK on May 10, 2014, 05:34:36 AM
^^^The only thing that I know if that in France the focus in on ensuring that the patient is stabilized during transport. If they go into cardiac arrest like Diana, then they believe it is preferable to stop and gain control of the patient before resuming the transport. It isn't what happens in the U.S.
If France were way ahead of the rest of the world I would agree, but it is not, so to say that this happened because their focus is on ensuring the patient is stabilized versus everywhere else in the world where they focus on stabilizing the patient while getting him or her to the hospital as quickly as possible is to say they are the best versus everyone else in the world and that is not the case...  There is no evidence to that effect... :shrug:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

TLLK

#58
May 10, 2014, 05:10:18 PM
If the goal is to stabilize the patient and then proceed with transport then yes it could take awhile to bring the situation under control. 

TLLK

#59
May 10, 2014, 05:12:06 PM
Quote from: Limabeany on May 10, 2014, 05:09:13 PM
Quote from: TLLK on May 10, 2014, 05:34:36 AM
^^^The only thing that I know if that in France the focus in on ensuring that the patient is stabilized during transport. If they go into cardiac arrest like Diana, then they believe it is preferable to stop and gain control of the patient before resuming the transport. It isn't what happens in the U.S.
If France were way ahead of the rest of the world I would agree, but it is not, so to say that this happened because their focus is on ensuring the patient is stabilized versus everywhere else in the world where they focus on stabilizing the patient while getting him or her to the hospital as quickly as possible is to say they are the best versus everyone else in the world and that is not the case...  There is no evidence to that effect... :shrug:
This was their policy in 1996. I do not know if it has undergone a change. The odds were not in Diana's favor that she was going to survive due to the nature of her injuries.

Limabeany

#60
May 10, 2014, 05:14:27 PM
That is the goal everywhere in the world, but they don't stop for an hour everywhere else in the world to do so which is why everyone wondered why on earth they took so long... If that is their policy, than in 1996, they had the worst ambulance service in the world and the fact that everyone around the world wondered why that ambulance specifically took so long even to this day says that even for france it was an extremely long period of time...
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

cinrit

#61
May 10, 2014, 05:23:38 PM
The policy of stabilizing the patient at the scene is what France determined is best.  Surely, this policy is based on their experiences in their country.

QuoteStrategies for delivering care
The essential decision in prehospital care is whether the patient should be immediately taken to the hospital, or advanced care resources are taken to the patient where they lie. The "scoop and run" approach is exemplified by the MEDEVAC aeromedical evacuation helicopter, whereas the "stay and play" is exemplified by the French and Belgian SMUR emergency mobile resuscitation unit or the German "Notarzt"-System (preclinical emergency physician).

Emergency medical services - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

TLLK

#62
May 10, 2014, 05:39:52 PM Last Edit: May 10, 2014, 05:43:53 PM by TLLK
^^^Thank you for the article Cindy. The information on French emergency medical services and policies are clearly explained and it does mention that they differ from English speaking countries. The French have determined that this is what is best for their patients.

Also I'm not sure if it has been mentioned how long it took to safely remove Diana from the wreckage. The firefighters and EMTs would have been working in cramped and dangerous conditions while trying to not cause further injury to the patient.

cinrit

#63
May 10, 2014, 06:00:23 PM
Apparently, it took about 30 minutes to remove her from the car:

QuoteThe first police patrol officers arrived at 12.30. Shortly afterwards, the seven paparazzi on the scene were arrested. Diana was removed from the car at 1:00 am. She then went into cardiac arrest. Following external cardiopulmonary resuscitation, her heart started beating again. She was moved to the SAMU ambulance at 1:18 am, left the scene at 1:41 am and arrived at the Pitié-Salpêtrière Hospital at 2:06 am.[17]

Death of Diana, Princess of Wales - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia,_Princess_of_Wales

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

TLLK

#64
May 10, 2014, 06:20:56 PM
^^^Which from looking at the crash photos appears to be a realistic time frame for the firefighters to do their job as quickly as possible.

One other bit of information that I have yet to see in the discussion is that there was a physician and nurse in the ambulance aiding Diana, not just emergency technicians. The physician would be the one making the decision on the scene to stop and stabilize Diana, not just technicians acting on the orders of a doctor at the hospital.

Limabeany

#65
May 10, 2014, 07:04:40 PM
Prayers to never be involved in an accident requiring an ambulance while in France will be started nightly...  <_<
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

TLLK

#66
May 10, 2014, 11:23:34 PM
Well hopefully you'll never be involved in such a serious accident like Diana. :hug: Once she was extracted from the vehicle and in the ambulance, the doctor could see how life threatening her injuries were and began to try and stabilize her. Once she was at the hospital doctors operated for two hours.  Like Mike mentioned in an earlier post, based upon the medical records and autopsy report she really did not stand a chance.  :no: IMVHO had she been in the UK or US, the outcome would have been the same.

sandy

#67
May 11, 2014, 12:37:28 AM
Some noted physicians like Dr. Barnaard said she would have had a better chance if she had not taken that long ambulance ride. I read so many cases of people being airlifted from horrendous accidents and surviving them.   Having some physician in an ambulance and a nurse does not mean it had everything a hospital would have had. I think it a disgrace that she took that long trip and I think it indefensible.  I don't think saying "it is best" is by any stretch of the imagination remotely an accurate description of it. 

Queen Camilla

#68
May 11, 2014, 01:44:31 AM Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:47:35 AM by Queen Camilla
Based on information supplied by cinrit:

The ambulance left the scene 23 minutes after placing her in the ambulance & arrived at the hospital 25 minutes later.

That does not seem like a long time.  I routinely see ambulances not leave the scene after loading a person for nearly 15-30 minutes & I do not live in France, Germany nor Belgium.

sandy

#69
May 11, 2014, 01:55:43 AM Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 01:58:32 AM by sandy
Every second counts in a situation such as this one. If this were "not so bad" then how come people are airlifted to get them to a hospital ASAP.

This is the article that mentions Dr. Barnard's assessment which should not be sneezed at.:

The key questions about Diana and Dodi's death that still remain | UK | News | Daily Express
Double post auto-merged: May 11, 2014, 01:57:42 AM


QC it's a long time if every second counts QC. I would not want a loved one treated that way. That's why airlifting is used since this is not acceptable. This time "only" an hour is an eternity for someone dying and deprived of proper care.

Queen Camilla

#70
May 11, 2014, 03:05:27 AM Last Edit: May 11, 2014, 03:19:32 AM by Queen Camilla
Sandy, don't know where you are but very few people are airlifted.

Not many cities, even large urban ones can afford helicopters for each crash victim.

Helicopters are usually stationed only in certain areas so the time it would take from getting the call to arriving at the scene would probably be longer than a traditional ambulance so most rely on standard ambulances. 

TLLK

#71
May 11, 2014, 03:40:06 AM
Quote from: Queen Camilla on May 11, 2014, 03:05:27 AM
Sandy, don't know where you are but very few people are airlifted.

Not many cities, even large urban ones can afford helicopters for each crash victim.

Helicopters are usually stationed only in certain areas so the time it would take from getting the call to arriving at the scene would probably be longer than a traditional ambulance so most rely on standard ambulances. 
Agreed. Trying to land a helicopter in that area would have been very difficult.  Also a doctor was on board the ambulance so Diana was receiving care from a physician.

Limabeany

#72
May 11, 2014, 03:56:01 AM
I think she meant that if critical patients can be stabilized for airlifting, they can be stabilized for transport by ambulance, this just makes French ambulance services inept...   :shrug:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.

cinrit

#73
May 11, 2014, 01:56:18 PM
Diana's fatal injury was internal.  There was no way even a doctor could have known how extensive that injury was without opening her up.  So while Diana's condition was certainly critical, there was no way of knowing that there was "a tear to the upper left pulmonary vein - the vessel which carries blood from the lungs to the heart". 

QuoteMedical experts who reviewed the treatment for the French investigation concluded: "The treatment given was in accordance with current medical knowledge in the light of the operating conditions and injuries that could be detected at the time."

"The type of injury found is commonly fatal, regardless of the treatment given. It is exceptional for patients with this type of injury to reach hospital alive."

The UK report stated that after hearing evidence from a number of medical staff who treated Diana: "There was no evidence to show that there was a more appropriate hospital that could have provided this treatment."

http://www.24dash.com/news/communities/2006-12-14-Inquiry-reveals-graphic-details-of-Princess-Dianas-injuries#.U2-AtvldWSo

Cindy
Always be yourself.  Unless you can be a unicorn.  Then always be a unicorn.

Limabeany

#74
May 11, 2014, 02:00:33 PM
She certainly wasn't cracking jokes with them and drinking scotch in the ambulance. They should have known they should have been hurrying and not counting the cracks in the pavement...  :shrug:
"You don't have to be pretty. You don't owe prettiness to anyone. Not to your boyfriend/spouse/partner, not to your co-workers, especially not to random men on the street. You don't owe it to your mother, you don't owe it to your children, you don't owe it to civilization in general. Prettiness is not a rent you pay for occupying a space marked 'female'." Diana Vreeland.
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