Anne Boleyn - Her Life, Her Times, Her Story

[cinrit]

The only writer ever to have had this idea, except for P Gregory, is Retha Warnicke an American historian, who developed the idea that possibly George was homosexual and that he had an affair with Mark Smeaton.  there's no evidence whatsoever.  Gregory based her novel on some of Warnicike's writing but there's no evidence  and certainly to move from saying that George might have been homosexual to he also might have had sex with his sister is one hell of a jump.....

Poor George. ???  If we were to believe everything said about him, we would believe .... that he cheated on his wife, that he had an affair with Mark Smeaton (who, poor guy, just happened to be in the wrong palace at the wrong time of the year), and slept with his sister.  In truth, we know next to nothing about George. 

Cindy

[amabel]

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and Arthur with a needle on their wedding night, Catherine pricking the heel of her foot so to fool those who would examine the sheets in the morning.  Possible ... but would two young virgins know enough to do something like that?  Maybe today, but in 1501?  Probably not?

Cindy

I should think they did know.  They were not all that innocent, they were in effect expected to "breed" that was a large part of their royal duty, and I'm sure they knew about the "bloody sheets" thing...

[sandy]

I find it amazing how after Anne gave birth to Elizabeth he dismissed Elizabeth with the comment to Anne, "we are young and sons will follow." Little did he know how Elzabeth would turn out and how she would be one of England's most famous monarchs in History.

why would that be unusual. The whole point of his marrying Anne was to get a male heir, and he did not want another girl.  he had interpreted only having a daughter by Catherine as proof that the marriage was not good....so another girl was a huge embarrassment.
As for C and Arthur, again I should have said that given his youth and delicate health (sex was thought to be exhausting for young people and draining them of vital energy) it is very possible that the marriage wasn't consummated.  He might have tried, fumbled and given up, being young and nervous, and thought that there was time to do it later...

Re: Henry and his daughter Elzabeth: For the time it was the usual attitude, but it is very very ironic under the circumstances.

[Hale]

had  she had sex with Arthur I think she would have gotten pregnant

Not everyone gets pregnant everytime they have sex.

[sandy]

Catherine got pregnant many times when married to Henry. SHe got pregnant soon after she and Henrymarried. She was fertile. It is not outside the realm of possibility (if he had sex with Arthur) for her to get pregnant by him I don't believe she and Arthur consummated the marriage. I don't see how this woman could stand by and watch her supporters get executed on her behalf--knowing she might stop it by admitting the marriage was consummated. I don't think she was lying under the circumstances.

[Hale]

 It is not outside the realm of possibility that Katherine could have sex and not get pregnant.  There were always doubts about the validity of the marriage between Henry and Katherine very early one.  Just as there were doubts about Mary's legitimacy because of this marriage.  Even before Henry divorced Katherine.

I don't see Katherine as this great sacrificial lamb many make her out to be.  I always doubted her allegiances.

[sandy]

Mary was not considered illegitimate by the Catholic countries. They considered Henry's marriage to Anne null and void and Mary the true legitimate daughter.  Henry made Mary illegitimate but the Catholic countries didn't recognize this decree-particularly the Emperor Charles V, Mary's cousin.  Mary also had the backing of the Pope who backed the dispensation Henry got to marry Katherine and never named Mary illegitmate.

I didn't doubt Katherne's allegiance. She IMO could have gotten support from the Emperor to fight for the crown (raising an army)for her daughter Mary--Katherine was popular, Anne Boleyn was not.. But Katherinne did not--although she didn't accept Henry's verdict that the marriage was null and void, she didn't try to rise an army or uprisng (Katherine as regent WAS in charge of a military campaign aganst the Scots--which she won). In her mind Henry was living in sin with Anne and never recognized the marriage. Mary although hurt by her father loved him and ultimately came  back to court after her mother died.

THere were no doubts about Mary's legitmacy before the divorce. Henry could have married Mary off--and she was betrothed to Charles V and also to a French Dauphin.  Henry named Mary illegitimate and made for a time Elizabeth the legitimate heir.

Had Katherne's son Prince Henry lived, Henry would never have had "doubts" about the marriages's validity.  Henry just used this to extricate himself from the marriage. I doubt there would be any queston about Prince Henry's legitimacy.

[sandy]

Also where was Henry's allegiance to Katherine? I think he treated her abominably taking on mistresses, even naming his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy, the Duke of Richmond, the ceremony naming him was something Katherine had to watch. It was not Katherine's fault that the childlren died--childlren died young and the medications we take for granted were not available back then.  I also don't think Henry treated his wives that well, he even was said to lose his temper with Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr would have gone to the Tower had she not had the chance to soothe over a quarrel with Henry about religion.  Anne BOleyn was beheaded on trumped up charges. Ann of CLeves did get a break by Henry not wanting her as his wife--she got to stay in England as Henry's "sister" and received a good settlement.

Henry married Katherine and the two were said to be in love. Henry didn't quibble over the dispensation which was recognized. It was only due to Henry's wanting a male heir and his attraction to ANne Boleyn that he played the she was married to my brother card  He was also attracted to Anne and moved heaven and earth to marry her, but when he got disatisfied with her because of her not having a son had the alleged "lovers" tortured so they would "confess" and had Anne executed.

Henry was not exactly the most loyal person in the world.

[Hale]

  Sandy, I have responded to you here.  http://theinternetforum.net/royalforum/index.php/topic,48958.new.html

May I also take this opportunity to say that no matter how many times I lock horns with you and how many times we disagree, I do relish your posts which I would describe as food for thought.  :truce:

[cinrit]

It was only due to Henry's wanting a male heir and his attraction to ANne Boleyn that he played the she was married to my brother card  He was also attracted to Anne and moved heaven and earth to marry her, but when he got disatisfied with her because of her not having a son had the alleged "lovers" tortured so they would "confess" and had Anne executed.

I agree that Anne Boleyn was executed on trumped up charges ... and most historians agree with that ... but I have to point out that the only alleged lover that was tortured was Mark Smeaton, her musician.  The belief is that he was tortured at Thomas Cromwell's home, but this was never proven.  You can read more about Mark Smeaton here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Smeaton

Cindy

[Lady of Hay]

Phiilppa Gregory did take a lot of liberties with facts--this was a novel.

:Nod:

Liberties are always taken with historical novels because no one can say with 100% accuracy what actually happened back then unless you get in a time machine.  The only theory of Gregory's novel that I ever agreed with is the fact that the Carey children were Henry VIII's.  IMO, either one or both of them were.

[Savanna]

Sort of bumping up this thread agian... I was wondeirng if anyone is interested in Anne Boleyn - adn the Book by G Bernard.
I read the book some time ago and wasn't terribly impressed by his arguments that Anne might have been guility of adultery...
Anyone at all up for discussion

I'm interested in her story but I haven't read the book you mentioned. I'm actually still looking for a really good book about her character, her dreams, her thoughts and so on. Not so much about her role as Queen and Henry's wife. Perhaps you can recommend one?

Thanks :flower:

[cinrit]

Sort of bumping up this thread agian... I was wondeirng if anyone is interested in Anne Boleyn - adn the Book by G Bernard.
I read the book some time ago and wasn't terribly impressed by his arguments that Anne might have been guility of adultery...
Anyone at all up for discussion

I'm interested in her story but I haven't read the book you mentioned. I'm actually still looking for a really good book about her character, her dreams, her thoughts and so on. Not so much about her role as Queen and Henry's wife. Perhaps you can recommend one?

Thanks :flower:

I've been studying Anne Boleyn since the early 60's ... in my opinion, the best Anne Boleyn biography is "The Life and Death of Anne Boleyn" by Eric Ives.  It's available at amazon.com and at amazon.co.uk ...

Cindy

[cinrit]

Anne Boleyn was the second wife of Henry VIII, born some time between 1501 and 1507.  Her marriage to Henry was the impetus for the formation of the Church of England with Henry VIII as the head.  She is the mother of one of England's greatest Queens, Elizabeth I.  She was (falsely) convicted of treason and beheaded on the orders of Henry on May 19, 1536.  I became interested in her after reading a historical novel by Norah Lofts, called "The Concubine". 

How did you become interested in Anne Boleyn?

Cindy

[Savanna]

I became interested in her when I was a little girl. The Carry on movie about Henry and his wifes was on TV and my stepmom told me that Anne Boleyn was beheaded. To a young girl like me it was scary and fascinating but I never learned more about her until when I was 18 and traveled to London for the first time before I moved there a year later. My teacher told me a lot about the history but I think all stories I heard about Anne Boleyn were quite negative. She was always demonized by people who told me about her, so I'm glad to have this thread and to be able to hear other people's view on her :flower:

What would you say was she really like?

[cinrit]

What would you say was she really like?

Oh, that's quite a question ... how can I say what I think she was like in just a few sentences?  Maybe this ... I think she was a very complicated woman.  I think she probably leaned to hysteria and excitement, but I think she was very intelligent.  I've never been able to decide, though, whether she really loved Henry VIII or not.  Or maybe I should restate that and say I'm not sure if she was ever "in love with" Henry VIII.  She probably did love him or at least have much affection for him.  I think she was flirtatious, but I don't think she would ever have cheated on the King, for two reasons.  I think she was much too smart to do anything like that.  I also think that she had a high opinion of her station in life and would never have even considered sleeping with Mark Smeaton, who was the only man who confessed to having slept with her. 

I'm curious to learn what others think of her!

Cindy

[Lothwen]

^Mark Smeaton confessed under torture.  IMO, once you were being tortured, the person, or people, who were doing the torturing already knew what they wanted to hear, and the only way to stop the torture was to confirm to them what they already believed, even if you were confessing a lie.

I think that Anne grew tired of being used by her father and uncle in their scheme to advance their family, since it was she who had kept Henry interested all those years, convincing him to divorce Catherine, whom the British people were said to have adored, and to break from Rome, which would have caused him and the whole of England to be excommunicated.  After finally getting Henry and the crown I doubt that Anne would have jeoporadized that and Elizabeth's future by having an affair.  IMO, she was set up by Cromwell, who had profited from the dissolution of the monostaries, and Anne wanted that money to go to charity, and she was ready to go to the King with her accusations.  So Cromwell beat her to it

[Savanna]

Oh, that's quite a question ... how can I say what I think she was like in just a few sentences?  Maybe this ... I think she was a very complicated woman.  I think she probably leaned to hysteria and excitement, but I think she was very intelligent.  I've never been able to decide, though, whether she really loved Henry VIII or not.  Or maybe I should restate that and say I'm not sure if she was ever "in love with" Henry VIII.  She probably did love him or at least have much affection for him.  I think she was flirtatious, but I don't think she would ever have cheated on the King, for two reasons.  I think she was much too smart to do anything like that.  I also think that she had a high opinion of her station in life and would never have even considered sleeping with Mark Smeaton, who was the only man who confessed to having slept with her. 

Interesting, Cindy, thank you. But what would you say - was she the schemer and witch that popular history made her to be, or was she just a girl in a situation who used her intelligence to make the best of it?

^Mark Smeaton confessed under torture.  IMO, once you were being tortured, the person, or people, who were doing the torturing already knew what they wanted to hear, and the only way to stop the torture was to confirm to them what they already believed, even if you were confessing a lie.

I agree.

[cinrit]

^Mark Smeaton confessed under torture.  IMO, once you were being tortured, the person, or people, who were doing the torturing already knew what they wanted to hear, and the only way to stop the torture was to confirm to them what they already believed, even if you were confessing a lie.

Yes, thank you ... I should have added that.  The story goes that Mark Smeaton one day in her chambers had a far-away look on his face, and Anne asked him why was he sad.  When he replied that he was sad because she was ignoring him, she told him, "You may not look to me to treat you as I would a nobleman, for you are inferior person" (or words to that effect).  He replied, "No, Your Grace, a look sufficeth me and so fare thee well" (or words to that effect).  The incident was repeated to Cromwell differently.  Both Anne and Smeaton were innocent.

I think that Anne grew tired of being used by her father and uncle in their scheme to advance their family, since it was she who had kept Henry interested all those years, convincing him to divorce Catherine, whom the British people were said to have adored, and to break from Rome, which would have caused him and the whole of England to be excommunicated.  After finally getting Henry and the crown I doubt that Anne would have jeoporadized that and Elizabeth's future by having an affair.  IMO, she was set up by Cromwell, who had profited from the dissolution of the monostaries, and Anne wanted that money to go to charity, and she was ready to go to the King with her accusations.  So Cromwell beat her to it

Also because Henry wanted to be rid of Anne so that he could marry Jane Seymour.  He couldn't simply divorce her or annul the marriage because he didn't want a repeat of the Catherine of Aragon situation, where the divorce or annulment might be questioned.  He wanted her permanently gone.  Ironically, shortly before her execution, her marriage to Henry was annulled by Thomas Cranmer.  So technically, her trial should have been moot.

Cindy

[cinrit]

Oh, that's quite a question ... how can I say what I think she was like in just a few sentences?  Maybe this ... I think she was a very complicated woman.  I think she probably leaned to hysteria and excitement, but I think she was very intelligent.  I've never been able to decide, though, whether she really loved Henry VIII or not.  Or maybe I should restate that and say I'm not sure if she was ever "in love with" Henry VIII.  She probably did love him or at least have much affection for him.  I think she was flirtatious, but I don't think she would ever have cheated on the King, for two reasons.  I think she was much too smart to do anything like that.  I also think that she had a high opinion of her station in life and would never have even considered sleeping with Mark Smeaton, who was the only man who confessed to having slept with her. 

Interesting, Cindy, thank you. But what would you say - was she the schemer and witch that popular history made her to be, or was she just a girl in a situation who used her intelligence to make the best of it?

I think she might have been a little of both, Savanna ... well, not that she was a witch.  I think she did do some scheming once actions were put into motion by Henry.  I'm not convinced that she entered whatever flirtation she had initially with Henry, with intentions of breaking up his marriage.  I think she was caught up in circumstances where Henry pursued her, she initially resisted, then played hard-to-get, then succumbed.  I can imagine it would have been pretty hard to resist Henry ... Henry wasn't a man who was accustomed to being told "no" to.  I think she eventually probably fell into ... at the very least "fascination" with him, if not outright love, though she may very possibly have fallen in love with him after some time.  Henry, before he got old, was considered very handsome.  I think Henry probably mentioned annulling his marriage to Catherine first, and then Anne probably started pushing for it.  Not a witch, maybe not an outright schemer as presented in "The Tudors" (as much as I love Anne Boleyn, I really disliked the Anne Boleyn as portrayed in "The Tudors"), but not exactly a wilting flower, either.  I think she was highly intelligent ... Thomas Boleyn made sure that his children were well-educated in history, politics, religion, and languages.  I think she probably gave Henry a good run for his money.

Cindy

[Savanna]

Oh thank you again, Cindy, that was very interesting to read. I think I understand it a little more now. By the way, was it really her father who pushed her into the situation, or do you think it was also her own (ambitious) desire to become Henry's wife and Queen?

Actually, I like Anne how she was portrayed on the series. Of all his wifes I liked her the most, and to me, she didn't seem to be the schemer I had heard of before  :shrug:

Do you happen to know that fictional journal of hers written by a writer named (I think) Robin Maxwell? I'd like to read it but I'm not sure how much truth is in it.

[cinrit]

Oh thank you again, Cindy, that was very interesting to read. I think I understand it a little more now. By the way, was it really her father who pushed her into the situation, or do you think it was also her own (ambitious) desire to become Henry's wife and Queen?

Her father was very ambitious.  I think he might have put Anne in Henry's path, and once Henry started showing interest, she was probably encouraged by her father.  Thomas Boleyn had done the same with her sister, Mary.  But Anne saw what happened when Henry got tired of Mary.  The rumor is that he got tired of her when she got pregnant.  No one knows the real story.  In any case, Mary was pregnant and Henry was gone after he married her off.  That's probably why Anne initially resisted his advances.  She didn't want the same thing to happen to her.  Have you ever read any of Henry's and Anne's letters to each other?

Actually, I like Anne how she was portrayed on the series. Of all his wifes I liked her the most, and to me, she didn't seem to be the schemer I had heard of before  :shrug:

I don't think she was, either.  :no:

Do you happen to know that fictional journal of hers written by a writer named (I think) Robin Maxwell? I'd like to read it but I'm not sure how much truth is in it.

I think you're talking about "The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn"?  Yes, by Robin Maxwell.  I read it several years ago, and I liked it.  I don't remember how accurate it was, but I remember enjoying it enough to keep it in my bookshelf, so it's probably fairly accurate.  I'd recommend it to anyone interested in Anne. :)

Cindy

[Savanna]

Have you ever read any of Henry's and Anne's letters to each other?

No, but I'd love to!  :crazylove:  I just saw a Showtime special about Henry and his time presented by Natalie Dormer, and they also talked about the letters but I've never read any.

I think you're talking about "The Secret Diary of Anne Boleyn"?  Yes, by Robin Maxwell.  I read it several years ago, and I liked it.  I don't remember how accurate it was, but I remember enjoying it enough to keep it in my bookshelf, so it's probably fairly accurate.  I'd recommend it to anyone interested in Anne. :)

Yes, that one! I was asking as I love to read books in diary style. You get to know the person better, not so much the political facts.
I think I'll try to get it and start to read with that  :)

[Diandra]

Someone smart could earn a fortune translating and selling some of the books about Anne Boleyn and/or Henry VIII.

My theori is that Anne Boleyn loved Percy madly  :cloud9:and when Henry VIII decided she couldn't marry Percy she hated him from then on but secretly. :devil:

The only thing ruining this theori is Annes last words. Evidently she praised Henry VIII. :windsor1:

[cinrit]

Have you ever read any of Henry's and Anne's letters to each other?

No, but I'd love to!  :crazylove:  I just saw a Showtime special about Henry and his time presented by Natalie Dormer, and they also talked about the letters but I've never read any.

Here's a link to some of them:

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/letters.html

I've got a book called "Love Letters of Henry VIII", edited by Henry Savage, which has copies of the original letters, but I don't know if the book is still available.  I just checked ... both amazon.co.uk and amazon.com have books entitled "Love Letters of Henry VIII to Anne Boleyn" at reasonable prices.

Yes, that one! I was asking as I love to read books in diary style. You get to know the person better, not so much the political facts.
I think I'll try to get it and start to read with that  :)

I think you'll like it.  :)

Cindy