Diana's death, the funeral and the investigation into her death

[sandy]

Trevor RJ has that amnesia.

How often the boys think about it is known only to them? It is normal to think about a deceased parent. And yes, it is healthy. Sometimes blocking it out causes more harm.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 09:44:47 PM

Of course he will wonder about it, it was his mother and he loved her and he will never have full knowledge of what she experienced...

but if people want to believe that for some unknown reason, some people, also unknown wanted to kill Diana, they will believe it.. I don't think there's much point in trying to convince them otherwise. 

It is not necessarily thinking that Diana was murdered when people write about the blundering medical care that may well have cost Diana her life.
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 09:47:58 PM

Yes  @amabel conspiracy theorists will choose to believe whatever they wish to believe about 9/11, The Kennedy assassination, etc..

The accident that killed three that night and injured Trevor Rees Jones had all the hallmarks of too many road accidents: excessive speed, an impaired driver and unrestrained passengers/driver. This is why countries around the world created laws to control speed and ensure safe drivers and passengers. Even with the laws in place, there are still those who speed, are impaired (alcohol, drugs, medication, sleep deprivation) and those who are unrestrained in a vehicle and too often these accidents are fatal. :no:
Double post auto-merged: September 26, 2018, 06:23:06 PM

She went into cardiac arrest at least twice while enroute to the hospital. It would have been highly unethical and inept to not stop and treat the situation when it occurred.  Had they ignored it, then this would have been a clear case of malpractice by the ambulance doctor, nurses and other members of the team. The medical team at the scene, in the ambulance and in the hospital did everything according to the established protocol  to try and save her from her catastrophic injuries, but when faced with an unrestrained passenger who has been involved in a crash like the one in the tunnel, her chances of survival were not high.  :no:

The way they treated her did not save her life. Fact. No matter how it is spun. She did not get to the hospital in time. The ambulance people were ineffective.

Established protocol? It was a clumsy medical system. She should have gone to that first hospital and the medical team could have gotten to that hospital pronto. It was blundering because a world famous and person got killed on their watch and in their country.

The established protocol ultimately killed her.

I would say it was malpractice. A family here in the US would have sued and probably won. If Diana had the accident in the US and gotten to a hospital quickly I really believe she'd be alive today.

[TLLK]

The way they treated her did not save her life. Fact. No matter how it is spun. She did not get to the hospital in time. The ambulance people were ineffective.

Established protocol?

No it did not save Diana, Princess of Wales' life as her injuries were catastrophic. Keep in mind that the impact actually caused her heart to be displaced. However the established protocol on treating accident victims that is utilized by First World nations such as France and Luxembourg has saved countless lives. SAMUR is the system's name and it follows the protocol of bringing the emergency room to the accident scene instead of relying upon paramedics to transport the victims to the hospital emergency room.

"The bottom line is, whatever the merits or demerits of the French emergency medical system, poor Diana was a goner from the beginning because of the particular nature of her deceleration injury."

Princess Diana's Death: Anniversary Brings French Health Care Into Focus - ABC News

The French philosophy on emergency medical care is to provide a higher level of care at the scene of the incident, and so SMUR (Service Mobile d'Urgence et Reanimation[8]) units are staffed by a qualified physician along with a nurse and/or emergency medical technician. This contrasts with systems in other parts of the world, notably the Anglo-Saxon countries (United Kingdom, United States, Australia etc.) where care on scene is conducted primarily by paramedics or emergency medical technicians, with physicians only becoming involved on scene at the most complex or large scale incidents.

The result is that a SMUR unit will typically spend a long time on scene compared with a paramedic ambulance in a different system, as the physician may conduct a full set of observations, examinations and interventions before removal to hospital.

There are pluses and minuses to both systems. What they do have in common is people doing their best to try and assist those who have been injured in accidents, but they're not miracle workers. :shrug:
Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:52:44 AM

The real problems started when the patient was moved from a sitting to a supine position during extrication. Such positional changes, Mattox explains, can cause a herniated heart to slip in or out of its protective sac or get wedged in the opening. That constricts the heart and prevents it from beating properly. According to Mattox, it was probably pericardial strangulation, rather than internal bleeding, that caused Diana?s sudden cardiac arrest in the tunnel.

?The damage to her heart had already happened and her death would have been inevitable at this point,? he says. ?Even in the best of trauma centers, this rare condition would have been difficult to diagnose and treat?in most cases, it is only discovered at the time of autopsy. I think the result would have been the same in any trauma center in the U.S.?even if she had been brought to the emergency room 15 minutes after the accident.? If Mattox?s theory is correct, then the French were

Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:55:55 AM

The views of an American trauma specialist concluded that further damage was done to her heart as she was extricated. Their conclusion that even if she'd been in an American trauma center within 15 minutes, she'd still have died. The injuries she suffered were too catastrophic.
Double post auto-merged: September 27, 2018, 12:57:45 AM

The Diana Mysteries | Vanity Fair

[michelle0187]

From what I know,  the first person to arrive, said there wasn't any photographers there until 4 minutes later. The driver was going so fast that they lost the paps. He also said that the photographers never kept him from getting to her, never touched the car and whenever he told them that he needed more room, they did. It took the first responders a while to get her out. The car looked crushed that I don't blame them for taking their time to remove her. This is just based on what I know and I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me, because so much has been said and written for the past two decades.

[sandy]

TLK Barnard clearly was not saying HE would do it. He was commenting about the bad medical treatment in Paris.  One specialist was saying she could not have been saved, others disagree. The point is it was the wrong treatment for Diana if they wanted her to survive the accident.  ANd it is immaterial if Barnard did heart transplants. He was an expert on  the heart.

From what I know,  the first person to arrive, said there wasn't any photographers there until 4 minutes later. The driver was going so fast that they lost the paps. He also said that the photographers never kept him from getting to her, never touched the car and whenever he told them that he needed more room, they did. It took the first responders a while to get her out. The car looked crushed that I don't blame them for taking their time to remove her. This is just based on what I know and I have no problem with anyone who disagrees with me, because so much has been said and written for the past two decades.

In an emergency situation certainly the first responders could have ordered the photographers to leave. Later they did get arrested. Too little too late.
A big part of the problem was the delay in even beginning to get her out of that car.

[TLLK]

The late Dr. Barnard was welcome to his opinion, but his colleagues who were actual trauma care specialists didn't agree with his findings. Keep in mind that Dr. Barnard while a brilliant and pioneering transplant surgeon didn't practice emergency room or trauma care. His American colleagues who did practice in these fields believed that she would not have survived.   :(

American trauma care specialists have concluded that even with their practice of "scoop and run" that Diana's catastrophic injuries doomed her due to the massive trauma that she'd received as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed. The impact displaced her heart and the movement during her extraction from the vehicle exacerbated the situation.

[sandy]

He was extremely knowedgeable I would not discredit his opinion to put it mildly.

Not all American trauma care people thought that way.

It makes it sound that she should have just been left there to die if these heartless people talk about nothing making any difference. As i said, a dog would have been treated better.

There is NO way of knowing if the scoop and run would have worked or not because it was not attempted. I don't think anybody can say that.

It is KNOWN that the way she was treated did not work. No question about it.

How do you know ALL of his American colleagues felt that way. I very much doubt it.

Saying she would have died anyway IMO is a cop out. No matter how "expert" the doctor is. It's a way of spinning the bad treatment Diana got that night.

The damning part of all this is that it took too much time to even start getting her out. And I don't buy the excuse that "photographers were in the way." Unless they each weight 20 tons each they could have moved even by force.

[amabel]

The late Dr. Barnard was welcome to his opinion, but his colleagues who were actual trauma care specialists didn't agree with his findings. Keep in mind that Dr. Barnard while a brilliant and pioneering transplant surgeon didn't practice emergency room or trauma care. His American colleagues who did practice in these fields believed that she would not have survived.   :(

American trauma care specialists have concluded that even with their practice of "scoop and run" that Diana's catastrophic injuries doomed her due to the massive trauma that she'd received as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle traveling at a high rate of speed. The impact displaced her heart and the movement during her extraction from the vehicle exacerbated the situation.

He is indeed welcome to his opnion but it is generally considered bad medicial etiquette to criticise other doctors in a situation that one hasn't been in.  Barnard was not at the accident, and has no experience In that sort of wrok. He cant know all the details or what it was like and it is not IMO on to attack fellow professionals when you don't know the ins and outs of a case, and in any case it is not your area of speciality...


Other doctors disagree with him, and it seems ot me that she was very badly injured.  Two of the others in the car had died on the spot.. so it was a terrible crash. Trevor RJ survived witht terrible injuries...
Diana was severely injured and the fact that she kept going into cardiac arrest meant that she was very close to death and there problaby was not much that medical or surgical expertise could do for her...

If she had been moved to a helicopter, assumng one could come close, the movemetn would probalby have triggered a heart attack just as geting her out of the car had already done...

[amabel]

and how long would ti have takene to transfer equipment and doctors to another hospital.
Cardiac arrest, and sudden dropping of blood pressure to a dangerous level means that the person is in serious trouble and needs urgent assistance.  Even then it may not work..

[amabel]

Faster than that darn ambulance. You don't know what would have happened.

But the "other Hospital" was nearer to the site of the accident.. but not much point in Diana's arriving there in 10 mintutes if (a) she died during the journey because of a jar or jolt cuasing her heart to give up... and they could not do CPR because they were moving too fast or (b) if there was no equipment or doctors at the other hospital....

[sandy]

She did not die during the overly slow ambulance ride so surely she would have survived ten minutes. They did not have to speed or go at a snails pace.

[amabel]

They did have to go at a snails pace, to prevent her heart from stopping and to allow for stabilising procedures when her BP dropped or her heart stopped..

[sandy]

But if the hospital was closer they would not have had to go "too fast" because they would get there in time. The first one was not that far.

Why would you think it would not be of much help? It was not even tried.

[amabel]

It wasn't tried because they were taking her to a hospital which had surgeons and equipment who could operate on her.  THey managed to keep her alive long enough to get her there...

IT was decided that that was the bset thing to do.  If she had gone to a nearer hospital they would have not had surgeons who were able to work on her, and possibly no equipment.. and its possible that they did not have any suitable facitlies for performing heart surgery of the kind that was needed.  So if she had gone there, she would have had to wait for a team to come from one hospital to another and for equipment to be moved..... how would that help?

[TLLK]

He was extremely knowedgeable I would not discredit his opinion to put it mildly

Yes he was an extremely knowledgeable man in his particular specialty. However his specialty was NOT trauma care. :)
His American colleagues who specialized in trauma care would have the knowledge, experience and skill at this extremely fast paced work. The late Dr. Barnard was not a specialist in trauma care nor did he work in any emergency room during his post-residency career. Yes I do place a greater value on the opinion of those who actually work in an American trauma center based in a large urban setting. The late Dr. Barnard never worked in one of those trauma centers.  If they state that Diana would not have survived even if she'd been taken to their trauma center within 15 minutes of the crash, then I do believe them as they are the experts in the field.

IT was decided that that was the bset thing to do.  If she had gone to a nearer hospital they would have not had surgeons who were able to work on her, and possibly no equipment.. and its possible that they did not have any suitable facitlies for performing heart surgery of the kind that was needed.  So if she had gone there, she would have had to wait for a team to come from one hospital to another and for equipment to be moved..... how would that help

I agree @amabel that it would have been a waste of time to transport the trauma team to another hospital and it would have jeopardized the care of any other patients who might have required similar services that night.

You and TLK keep ignoring the first hospital that was bypassed and yes, doctors and equipment could have been transferred thn.

The first hospital was not a designated trauma center for Paris. It did not have the personnel or equipment needed to treat victims that required a high level of trauma care. To take her to a hospital that didn't have the skilled personnel, equipment and medications required would have been unethical and malpractice. She was transported to the designated trauma center for that part of Paris. To move an entire team and the necessary equipment was not the practical and reasonable solution as those doctors/nurses/technicians might not have been licensed to work in another hospital beside  Piti?-Salp?tri?re

[TLLK]

No doctors have superpowers.

No they don't so based upon the testimony of the skilled medical team that gave care to the late Diana, Princess of Wales and the opinions of American trauma care specialists, the injuries that she sustained as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle that was traveling at a high rate of speed and later crashed into a pillar, she would not have survived. :(

It is routine that medical specialists from elsewhere do go to hospitals to treat or operate on patients.

Yes it does happen when there are planned operations not emergency ones. Those specialists have also been cleared to work and have admitting privileges in those hospitals.

Trauma teams routinely stay at the hospitals in which they have their necessary equipment set up for them.  :)

He would learn about trauma care and certainly speak to specialists in this area.

Yes the late Doctor Barnard could have chosen to do so but AFAIK the records show he didn't make the decision to do so in his post residency career. He had a successful career in his own specialty.

If there were someone lying in the streets in front of that first  hospital who experienced trauma I doubt that hospital would have let the patient lie there or close the doors to him ot her/

They'd provide preliminary care and arrange to have the patient transported to the hospital that had the trauma specialists waiting with their trained nurses, technicians and equipment. Hospitals do this routinely via ground ambulance or air ambulance. Ironically nearly twenty years later, Diana's eldest son would be working for EAAA to transport victims to hospitals that could provide specialized care to those who required it.

I don't get the defense oft his. If any of us had a loved one severely injured we'd fight tooth and nail to get the person to the hospital STAT.

Yes I would if I were in the U.S., the UK, Canada, Australia or another nation that practices "scoop and run."

If I were in France, I'd await the mobile emergency room ambulance that comes to the scene to bring treatment to the patient.

What they did to Diana was horrible.

No it wasn't horrible IMVHO.  What the French did was make every attempt to save her life. She was given the best possible emergency care but her injuries were so severe that she was not going to be saved. The massive trauma that she sustained as an unrestrained passenger in a vehicle that was traveling at a high rate of speed by an impaired driver caused her heart to be displaced. She was resuscitated twice due to her cardiac arrest episodes. She was given cardiac massage and electric shocks to restart her heart. One of the  best cardiac specialists in France tried to save her.  However due to the grave injuries that she sustained, she wasn't going to survive. :(

[Trudie]

I have to say this is totally interesting and for what it's worth here is my opinion. TLLk and amabel you both say she received quality care in the ambulance I beg to defer as they say in France the ambulances are mobile ER's they are not. I have the same opinion of when Princess Grace died they ambulance took too long getting her to a hospital where they could have treated her for her stroke and she could have survived. In instances such as Diana and Grace precious time was lost to diagnose and treat them appropriately. I don't discount Dr. Bernard he was one of the worlds most esteemed heart specialist however there are many unknowns as to what really happened that night especially what occurred in that ambulance.

[sandy]

Each case is different. What works for one might not work for another. I recall reading that some doctors reported that since Diana was relatively young and healthy and had an exercise regimen and healthy diet, her heart was healthy and that would have given her an advantage if she had gotten to the hospital on time.

I read about the Reagan case. And like Diana, his injuries were way more serious than first responders thought. Had he taken a slow ride to a hospital experts said he would have died. A speedy trip to the hospital saved his life. His surgery was very complicated and could not have been done in an ambulance with equipment and taken a slow trip.

Diana could have survived had she gotten there in time.

As I said it depends on the patient. There are no cookie cutter situations.

[TLLK]

Diana could have survived had she gotten there in time.

There are some doctors (not trauma specialists) who have stated this in the wake of her death. Others who work in trauma care on a daily basis are not necessarily convinced that speed would have changed the outcome due to the massive and catastrophic injuries that she had due to being an unrestrained passenger involved in a crash involving a high rate of speed. 

It is because these types of accidents that nations have the following: 1. Laws requiring car safety restraints for drivers and passengers and requiring them to be used. (We know that none of the four were restrained.) 2. Laws limiting the speed that a car can be driven in various placesr. (The speed limit in the tunnel was 35 MPH and the Mercedes entered the tunnel at 87MPH.) 3. Laws requiring that drivers be unimpaired by drugs, medication, alcohol. (We know Henri Paul was impaired that night.)

Since the accident featured unrestrained passengers, a high rate of speed and an impaired driver it is miraculous that Trevor survived and that no other vehicles were involved. Sadly it is not surprising that three passengers did not survive the crash. :no: This was unfortunately the case.


Double post auto-merged: September 28, 2018, 10:44:36 PM

Ironically both of Diana's sons would later be involved as either a  first responders or working closely to them. William with SAR and EAAA and Harry with the army. William working with teams to provide search and rescue and later transport for victims of accidents and later Harry observing the army medics that treated not only soldiers but POWs and civilians. Both have met with first responders in the UK and heard about their experiences. If either brother had any doubt about the dedication and skill that these men and women provide to strangers 24/7 around the globe, then I believe their doubts were soon relieved.

[TLLK]

William did not have anything to do with medical treatments. There were others in the copter who did that.

Neither WIll nor Harry are not qualified to treat patients with serious injuries.

William had very flexible hours at the copter job.

:) I never stated that they had anything to do with medical treatments. I said that William worked with the team that transported patients and as a EAAA helicopter co-pilot/pilot he would be involved in transportation of victims/patients.
I also stated that Harry observed the medics in action.
William had to have flexible hours as he was also performing royal engagements.

I do find it interesting that twenty years onward would find at least one of Diana's sons involved as a first responder in search and rescue/air ambulance transportation.

As I believe that you and I have discussed everything involved regarding the accident, that there is no reason to continue on with the discussion.  :)

[amabel]

:) I never stated that they had anything to do with medical treatments. I said that William worked with the team that transported patients and as a EAAA helicopter co-pilot/pilot he would be involved in transportation of victims/patients.
I also stated that Harry observed the medics in action.
William had to have flexible hours as he was also performing royal engagements.

I do find it interesting that twenty years onward would find at least one of Diana's sons involved as a first responder in search and rescue/air ambulance transportation.

As I believe that you and I have discussed everything involved regarding the accident, that there is no reason to continue on with the discussion.  :)

I agree that this is a sad subject, and has been thrashed out.. but I am interested in the idea that perhaps William at least chose to do this kind of work, perhaps because of his mother. I think some of it was just because he enjoyed flying, but it does involve helping people who have suffered injury or accident...

[amabel]

so what?  it was a valuable job, and one he may have chosen because of his mother's accident and death...  And sicne he is performng full time royal duties now I don't know why you are going on as if he were doing nothing.. 

[TLLK]

I agree that this is a sad subject, and has been thrashed out.. but I am interested in the idea that perhaps William at least chose to do this kind of work, perhaps because of his mother. I think some of it was just because he enjoyed flying, but it does involve helping people who have suffered injury or accident...

Yes I do find it interesting that he did want to be involved in helping people with the skills he'd learned in the RAF. Since he couldn't fulfill that childhood dream of being a policeman, this was still an opportunity to do something that would assist people in need.

[TLLK]

Childhood dream of being a policeman? He was about 5 or 6 it is the same about a 5 year old wanting to be a cowboy and play dress up. He had no serious plans IMO.

Yes I do believe that 5 or 6 years of age would fit into the description of "childhood." :) At some point in his youth, Prince William came to the realization that was not an option for him if the monarchy continued during his lifetime.

Since that job was out of the question, he found another one in which he could provide aid to others in distress.

William was not really involved directly in dealing with the patients, the medics did that work he flew or co-piloted the copters

Actually a tree surgeon named Jim Schembri recalled that during his own experience with EAAA that William was the one who held his head for thirty minutes as he was being tended to by the medics. If the medic requires the assistance of another crew member, they can direct them to assist with patients.  :) It's a necessary part of being a member of the team that crew members assist one another.

Tree surgeon rescued by Prince William 'didn't realise it was him' - ITV News

A tree surgeon who was rescued by Prince William, after being knocked unconscious when the tree he was working on "fell back on him", has admitted that he "didn't realise" he was being saved by a royal at the time.

Jim Schembri, 37, who was rescued by the Air Ambulance service after his accident says the Prince held his head still and gave him treatment for half an hour but in his injured state he failed to recognise him.

He even embarrassingly joked that he hoped the Royal wasn't flying his rescue helicopter.

Speaking on Good Morning Britain, Schembri said "it wasn't until they actually loaded me into the helicopter that it clicked".

[Trudie]

@TLLK while I am sorry about your brother it must still be very painful each case is very different depending on the injuries. While I am not a doctor or nurse or in the field of healthcare, I believe that faster a person involved such a serious accident needs to get to a medical facility quickly to be assessed. In some cases even with quick medical assistance such as your brothers there is nothing further that can be done and perhaps that could have been the case with Diana. I just think the extremely long time it took for to get her from the car even into the ambulance wasted precious minutes as the slow journey. If Diana had been airlifted to hospital and her injuries diagnosed immediately the outcome would have been very different. While I don't believe there was any conspiracy to kill Diana I find it curious that the first reports only said she suffered a broken arm well that is a huge difference to having a torn pulmonary vein and displaced heart.

[TLLK]

@TLLK while I am sorry about your brother it must still be very painful each case is very different depending on the injuries. While I am not a doctor or nurse or in the field of healthcare, I believe that faster a person involved such a serious accident needs to get to a medical facility quickly to be assessed. In some cases even with quick medical assistance such as your brothers there is nothing further that can be done and perhaps that could have been the case with Diana. I just think the extremely long time it took for to get her from the car even into the ambulance wasted precious minutes as the slow journey. If Diana had been airlifted to hospital and her injuries diagnosed immediately the outcome would have been very different. While I don't believe there was any conspiracy to kill Diana I find it curious that the first reports only said she suffered a broken arm well that is a huge difference to having a torn pulmonary vein and displaced heart.

Thank you @Trudie for your kind words. :) At the time of her son's death, our mother was still working as an ICU nurse and in house cardiac care educator for her hospital. Once she spoke at length to the attending trauma team physician, she knew that the extent of his injuries were truly beyond the powers and skills of any experienced surgeon. Even with the quick action of the Highway Patrol, paramedics, ambulance and trauma care team it just wasn't possible for him to survive.

Fortunately in the case of my mother's and sister's separate accidents, the quick response did work in their favor.  :thumbsup:

Regarding Diana-I certainly understand why there are still questions, but since I believe that the topic has been exhausted, I'm not going to comment further upon it.   :)

William could have held his head but the medics did the work on helping to save him.

And being directed by the lead medic by helping to stabilize the patient with a possible spinal injury is all part of being a member of the team.  :)

Children fantasize about wanting to be certain things when they grow up. And they even get costumes to wear. Many of these aspirations are just transitory.

Which is a part of being a child, though some kids do eventually become what they played at when they were young.  :)

Much like this little girl from the San Fernando Valley.  :happy: She was able to fulfill two of her childhood dreams. The first one (acting) came with many, many  rejections at first but eventually she did land that full time role. The other was much less likely to happen but it did! :happy:

Meghan Markle Once Wrote About Wanting To Be A Princess | HuffPost

?Little girls dream of being princesses. I, for one, was all about She-Ra, Princess of Power,? wrote Markle, who was starring on USA?s ?Suits? at the time. ?And grown women seem to retain this childhood fantasy. Just look at the pomp and circumstance surrounding the royal wedding and endless conversation about Princess Kate.?