How Princess Diana pushed her 'wicked stepmother' Raine Spencer down the STAIRS because she was starved of attention (and how the Countess kept her away from her dying father)
Diana pushed her stepmother Raine Spencer down the stairs | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4778560/Diana-pushed-stepmother-Raine-Spencer-STAIRS.html)
Double post auto-merged: August 11, 2017, 02:59:08 AM
Princess Diana's 'Wicked' Stepmother was a rollicking yarn – review
Princess Diana's 'Wicked' Stepmother was a rollicking yarn ? review (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2017/08/10/princess-dianas-wicked-stepmother-rollicking-yarn-review/)
Poor Rainer. Diana ought to have known better as a 27 year old Princess of Wales.
On a lighter note...that hair reminds of the belles of the south. It really is something :hehe:
what has her being princess of Wales got to do with knowing that its' wrong to shove an elderly woman down stairs?
I think that a woman in that position of her age ought to have realized that it really was not appropriate behavior. Rainer could have been seriously hurt...and for what. Because she was not offering enough attention to Diana's mum? Even worse still, Diana seemed to have joked about it in her interviews with Settlen.
Well, it seems the number and severity of stairs seem to expand and contract on the threads, so maybe it wasnt that many LOL.
She did seem quite pleased on the settlen tapes over it, however as she explained it, she was mad at both Raine and her father for their behavior towards Frances. She even said about must it always be so grim when mummy's around, do we always have to bring up the past (of course one could insert some delicious irony here given the way the C&D divorce went
@royalanthropologist :lol:).
I think ( i know, i know) that she was mad at both, but couldnt, or wouldnt do that to her father given his ill health, and it was a case of Raine wasnt blood so it was easier to lash out at her (another irony given Dianas fate at the hands of the RF) as I recall, but would need to rewatch for the exact words but it was all that pentup anger came out, remember Raine could be very cold to the Spencer kids, especially Charles and Diana, and while I think history has shown her correct, at the time they Spencer children felt she sold out their history at bargain prices to redecorate in her some would say retro, some would say garish, taste.
It couldnt have been that bad, they did make up shortly after the tapes were recorded. I think the tapes maybe gave Diana a chance to reflect on the situation and realize where she needed to grow, and im very proud of her for taking that step and thanking Raine for looking after Johnnie.
As for the stairs, whats the saying, love the person, not their choices
Heres something to think about, had Diana lived, I wonder if William or Harry would have repeated history on their weddings had Diana been greeted with the icy reception Frances got? :lol: :lol: :teehee: Sorry, now I cant get the image of one of them pushing Camilla down the stairs on the other brothers wedding day.
If their mother had been treated as Frances was reputedly treated Harry would probably have reacted physically on William's wedding day. It might not have been a push downstairs but certainly something would have been said. Those boys adored their mother and still do.
William and Harry (as far as I can tell) are gentlemen. The idea of them reacting physically to Camilla seems far-fetched. Diana would have had a lot more problems than a failing marriage if Rainer had been seriously hurt. Impulsiveness was often her downfall. There is never an excuse for violence unless you are protecting life and limb.
Yes, Diana was lucky when it came to things like that (remember Charles and the ashtray, its like a game of Clue, Royal Edition, hey maybe that should be a thing!!!.... Princess Diana, in the conservatory, with the ashtray...., although im sure short of Raine dying, all efforts would have been made to paper it over.
It was not one of Diana's red letter moments, that Spencer temper.......
It was pretty offish behaviour and she was lucky that it didn't cuase a real problem.
I was shocked when I heard that she shoved raine down the stairs. It's interesting how raine ended up being good friends with di and francis was ghosted.
It hit me today WHY the UK is going through this with the whole Raine and the stairs thing.....first I couldnt comprehend in what world the Spencer family thought they could get around this, but then I remembered......while Diana mentioned this in the Settlen tapes, that part was only broadcast in the US special, and not the UK version.
I can understand the papers and networks are worried about the harder libel laws in place in the UK, but geez louise its been an internet connected,hyperspace info world for over 20 years, its very disconcerting to see how divided still the US/UK public are on the info theyre exposed to, and correspondingly, the opinion they have on the royals is sorely affected by that, in the case of the UK, lack of info.
Even here on the forum ive been surprised by some people not accessing certain pieces of info thats been around for awhile.
We need free trade in info for our UK people.....
QuoteIt hit me today WHY the UK is going through this with the whole Raine and the stairs thing.....first I couldnt comprehend in what world the Spencer family thought they could get around this, but then I remembered......while Diana mentioned this in the Settlen tapes, that part was only broadcast in the US special, and not the UK version.
:goodpost:
More than likely this incident being told by Diana herself is why Spencer family would not want the tapes broadcast in the U.K.
Double post auto-merged: August 14, 2017, 03:25:07 AM
Quote from: Curryong on August 12, 2017, 03:12:48 AM
If their mother had been treated as Frances was reputedly treated Harry would probably have reacted physically on William's wedding day. It might not have been a push downstairs but certainly something would have been said. Those boys adored their mother and still do.
I truly hope that Harry or any other adult would never ever resort to violence against someone unless he was trying to protect himself or others. Saying something to a rude family member would be entirely appropriate IMO. Pushing someone down the stairs...never.
In the photos of the Daily Mail I like the beautiful picture of Diana with Lady Frances.
This is old news. It has been out there for years. Raine and Diana made up in 1992 (at the time of John Spencer's funeral). Charles Spencer treated Raine cruelly ousting her from Althorp packing her things in plastic bags and putting them out.
QuoteI dont know why some seem to refuse to believe falling/pushing and stairs connected with Diana's life, but it was confirmed by Diana herself and others who were there.
A fall down the stairs does not equal automatic hospitalization, I saw my mum fall down a whole flight of stairs and just be bruised, as was the case with Raine and Diana when they went down a flight of stairs.@Duch_Luver
Here is the link that you had requested
@Duch_Luver_4ever. Raine's personal assistant is named Sue Howe and she explains where the incident took place in the video.
Princess Diana PUSHED her 'wicked' stepmother down the stairs | TV & Radio | Showbiz & TV | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/showbiz/tv-radio/839682/Princess-Diana-Princess-of-Wales-pushed-stepmother-Raine-Spencer-down-stairs)
I still don't get why this is beaten to death. What can be done now? Prosecute the dead Diana? Raine forgave her the two were close.
Is this all you have to make Diana out to be a sinister unstable monster? this story has been rehashed and beaten to death. While I agree it was not appropriate behavior how many others have had an emotional lack of judgment and resorted to doing something you wouldn't normally do?. I don't condone Diana doing this but almost thirty years later what is the point both ladies are now dead and they chose to forgive and forget.
Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 12:17:04 AM
Is this all you have to make Diana out to be a sinister unstable monster? this story has been rehashed and beaten to death. While I agree it was not appropriate behavior how many others have had an emotional lack of judgment and resorted to doing something you wouldn't normally do?. I don't condone Diana doing this but almost thirty years later what is the point both ladies are now dead and they chose to forgive and forget.
Well we are still discussing the evil things C&C did 30 years ago so what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I am afraid I can find absolutely no justification for pushing your father's widow down the stairs. None at all and the attempts to minimize that incident speak of the hypocrisy that is inherent within the Diana industry. This was not an isolated incident. Diana narrated it with a nonchalance that was disturbing. She was not contrite about it. Ditto for when she slapped her own father.
Nobody is trying to make Diana a "sinister unstable monster". All that TLLK did is to provide evidence for some people who once again were trying to pretend that the story did not exist or was somehow made up by Charles' people. Then you have the rather pathetic excuses of it not being a big fall. That was assault plain and simple. It is a testament to Rainer's temperament that she did not press charges.
Quote from: sandy on September 22, 2017, 10:00:05 PM
I still don't get why this is beaten to death. What can be done now? Prosecute the dead Diana? Raine forgave her the two were close.
@sandy- Please remember that you don't have to read the thread if you don't care for the discussion. :shrug:
I don't get why it's still being discussed. Just curious, what is the purpose? THere was closure. Raine and Diana made up. They are both dead now.
Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 10:21:15 AM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on September 23, 2017, 01:56:29 AM
Well we are still discussing the evil things C&C did 30 years ago so what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I am afraid I can find absolutely no justification for pushing your father's widow down the stairs. None at all and the attempts to minimize that incident speak of the hypocrisy that is inherent within the Diana industry. This was not an isolated incident. Diana narrated it with a nonchalance that was disturbing. She was not contrite about it. Ditto for when she slapped her own father.
Nobody is trying to make Diana a "sinister unstable monster". All that TLLK did is to provide evidence for some people who once again were trying to pretend that the story did not exist or was somehow made up by Charles' people. Then you have the rather pathetic excuses of it not being a big fall. That was assault plain and simple. It is a testament to Rainer's temperament that she did not press charges.
The reason being that C and C still cooperate with writers that trash a dead woman. It is not 30 years ago. It is just this year.
It is not a 'pathetic' excuse that it was a short fall. How so? I know someone who fell down a flight of stairs and had to undergo extensive rehab. Big difference between a few steps and down a full flight. Various sources said it was on a Landing that Raine was on not a full flight of stairs.
That tape Diana made was like the Camillagate tape, it was never meant to see the light of day. The things said on the Camillagate tape were given a pass because it was not meant to be made public. LIkewise the Diana tape.
Is this tape designed to gather evidence and go to the police about it? It's over and done with and both parties involved made up. No lawsuits, no criminal charges no nothing.
Diana's father and his children made up. And at the time he died he and Diana were close.
Raine apparently did not get all judgmental and finger pointing and understood the pressures Diana was under and said so in an interview before her death (see the obituary I posted about Raine that says so).
Charles and Camilla apparently still hold grudges judging by her interview and the two books written. Raine moved on ages ago and she and Diana became friends.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on September 23, 2017, 01:56:29 AM
Well we are still discussing the evil things C&C did 30 years ago so what is good for the goose is good for the gander.
I am afraid I can find absolutely no justification for pushing your father's widow down the stairs. None at all and the attempts to minimize that incident speak of the hypocrisy that is inherent within the Diana industry. This was not an isolated incident. Diana narrated it with a nonchalance that was disturbing. She was not contrite about it. Ditto for when she slapped her own father.
Nobody is trying to make Diana a "sinister unstable monster". All that TLLK did is to provide evidence for some people who once again were trying to pretend that the story did not exist or was somehow made up by Charles' people. Then you have the rather pathetic excuses of it not being a big fall. That was assault plain and simple. It is a testament to Rainer's temperament that she did not press charges.
I never said the story didn't exist however as you mentioned this was not an isolated incident Just how many other people do you happen to know Diana pushed down the stairs?.
QuoteI don't get why it's still being discussed. Just curious, what is the purpose? THere was closure. Raine and Diana made up. They are both dead now.
@sandy-This site is a royal discussion forum. Members have discussed the various events in the lives of deceased royals (Tudors, Romanovs, Habsburgs, Windsors etc...) and living ones (ie Denmark's Prince Henrik's behavior, remarks and dementia diagnosis.) That includes events/relationships that had closure with the death of the royal or are still ongoing. IMO it is part of what makes a site attractive to members and encourages ongoing discussion. In my experience, I've noticed that sites that present only one point of view tend to have little participation.
Again if you don't care for the topic of discussion, you do not need to participate. :shrug:
Just have time to dip my toe in before work, but ppl arent trying to make Diana out to be a monster, theyre just discussing a historical royal event. If anyone should have blinders on about her, its me, and I can still love her, faults and all, I dont know why others cant talk about things like this, but we all love roasting C&C's chestnuts over an open fire, so to speak, so if we want to "enjoy" that we have to be able to at least endure talking about some of the less ideal aspects of Diana's life.
I am glad I am not the only one that thinks it a disservice to Diana to try to make her some sort of paragon of virtue whose every foible must be defended to the last. Part of her appeal was that she was human and shared her humanity. She was not embarrassed telling people about some of the messes in her life. Some people found that appealing about her. Had she been a miss goody two shoes, she would nowhere be as popular as she became.
@Trudie. I did not mean that she pushed several people down the stairs. I meant it was not an isolated incident of acting irrationally and impulsively then regretting later on.
Quotebut ppl arent trying to make Diana out to be a monster
@Duch_Luver_4ever -Thank you for stating this today. We all know there have been monsters throughout human history. IMO and also others' opinions at this site, the late Princess of Wales does not fit the profile of a monster due to this impulsive act.
As was pointed out in earlier posts, there was discussion over in what part of the manor house did this incident occur and whether or not this was an actual staircase or a few steps. One of the witnesses to the event has now shared this information in her interview.
Quote from: TLLK on September 23, 2017, 04:14:09 PM
@sandy-This site is a royal discussion forum. Members have discussed the various events in the lives of deceased royals (Tudors, Romanovs, Habsburgs, Windsors etc...) and living ones (ie Denmark's Prince Henrik's behavior, remarks and dementia diagnosis.) That includes events/relationships that had closure with the death of the royal or are still ongoing. IMO it is part of what makes a site attractive to members and encourages ongoing discussion. In my experience, I've noticed that sites that present only one point of view tend to have little participation.
Again if you don't care for the topic of discussion, you do not need to participate. :shrug:
I am entitled to participate. And my opinions should not be dismissed. Should this thread be a totally one sided thread? I think not.
Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 10:10:52 PM
Quote from: TLLK on September 23, 2017, 04:57:32 AM
@sandy- Please remember that you don't have to read the thread if you don't care for the discussion. :shrug:
If you want a one sided opinion, perhaps you would want me not to participate.. But I think others points of view should be heard or else it will be a 100 Percent Diana bashing exercise. I thought all opinions were welcomed. Please remember that this is an open thread.
Double post auto-merged: September 23, 2017, 10:14:43 PM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on September 23, 2017, 08:13:20 PM
I am glad I am not the only one that thinks it a disservice to Diana to try to make her some sort of paragon of virtue whose every foible must be defended to the last. Part of her appeal was that she was human and shared her humanity. She was not embarrassed telling people about some of the messes in her life. Some people found that appealing about her. Had she been a miss goody two shoes, she would nowhere be as popular as she became.
@Trudie. I did not mean that she pushed several people down the stairs. I meant it was not an isolated incident of acting irrationally and impulsively then regretting later on.
And I see efforts to make Charles a paragon of virtue. On the other side, he is always excused. ANd Camilla too.
Nobody said DIana was a paragon of virtue but she was not a monster like Bette Davis in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Let's not go to extremes here.
Diana NEVER intended to have that tape heard. The woman died at age 36. If she knew she would be dead, she'd have certainly burned the tapes. Anne Morrow Lindbergh wrote diaries, and some were so dark, she burned them before she died. Lauren Bacall locked up her letters in a safe and ordered her children to keep them that way. Diana was a young woman;. Everybody has a dark side and nobody is perfect.
But short of trying to posthumously trash Diana and order an investigation, I am not understanding where this thread is going.
The one person who was the one to forgive her was Raine Spencer. And she did.
Everybody has a bad side. Even Charles and Camilla.
QuoteIf you want a one sided opinion, perhaps you would want me not to participate.. But I think others points of view should be heard or else it will be a 100 Percent Diana bashing exercise. I thought all opinions were welcomed. Please remember that this is an open thread.
Awesome! I agree that one sided ones are not beneficial to the forum :thumbsup: Participation in threads is greatly appreciated at this forum and other sites. That's why it's important that we continue to have them even if others do not agree with our point of view. :thumbsup:
Quote
I still don't get why this is beaten to death. What can be done now? Prosecute the dead Diana? Raine forgave her the two were close.
After reading by your comments in which you stated that you didn't understand the reason why this topic was still being discussed, I and others were under the impression that you found this continued conversation topic to be personally disturbing. That's why I shared that you were not required to participate. :)
QuoteNobody said DIana was a paragon of virtue but she was not a monster like Bette Davis in Whatever Happened to Baby Jane? Let's not go to extremes here.
No one stated that she was a monster in fact posters have gone out of their way to state that they do not view her as one, so I'm not sure why about Bette Davis comparison. :blank:
Some :goodpost:
@TLLK and
@royalanthropologist thats exactly what im referring to. If for example Raine and Diana had always been good friends, while that would have been nice, in my mind its a much more courageous and character building episode in Diana's life, and speaks to her growth and character that she was able to swallow her pride and make up with Raine that had their relationship never been tested and it been a boring Vanilla paste of mild agreement.
As much as we, or at least I, would have liked for her to never had a care,worry or tear in her life, its a great testament to her that she was able to take those situations and turn them around to benefit ppl and change the world rather than wallow in the paralysis of self pity or material excess. So I think to diminish her shortcomings is to diminish the growth she had to go through to do the wonderful things she did, and to diminish her as a person.
As for Charles and Camilla always being excused for their actions, that is patently not true, I know I pretty much always take my shots, repeatedly, at them for what they both did when warranted, but I also will give credit where its due, even if its begrudgingly :lol:. Heck, even royalanthropogist does as well, you can see it on some of the recent comments, and throughout her time here saying where C&C did wrong in the whole courtship.
I mean here's on paper, with our respective fav royals, we should not be able to say a civil word to each other, and yet we have very frequent contact on the threads and even though we disagree on some things, we're able to have well thought out, meaningful discourse that causes each side to look at all sides in a different way.
I find it sad and ironic that usually the most heated disagreements I have come from other Diana fans.
As for the tapes not being intended to be shown, thats true, had she been alive we likely wouldnt have seen them, and the Spencers burned docs when she died, so god knows what else is out there to be exposed that will be lost to history, as im sure is true of many historical figures.
But the stairs incident is interesting in that it shows even today the difference between the UK and International press, as they tried even as late as this summer to try and deny this happened, as only the US had broadcast it up till then. Just like in the old days when the UK press would edit out Ed VII's mistresses from photographs if they were caught when he was out and about while the International press wouldnt.
But its true that Diana did have a temper, from throwing nannies clothes on the roof, to bullying kids the first year at school when Jane was a prefect, the poison pen letter to Raine, putting eggs and flour on Gilbeys car when he stood her up( it would be interesting to see who he thought would be a better date than late 70s/early 80s Diana, ill never understand that one), gluing a friends car lock when she wouldnt loan her the car, and then the stuff we all talk about in the marriage, etc..
But the thing that makes it valuable to talk about those things is that she was learning and growing from those experiences and becoming a better person. She was also capable of great love, compassion,caring, thinking of others, etc. unseen for a royal.
Its like the bad stuff was the rain (pardon the pun) needed to bring the rainbow that was her lovely side out.
All the Spencer children disliked Raine. Soon after his father died, Charles SPencer, got those plastic bags, stuffed Raine's things into them and put her out. Jane and Sarah would be cold to Raine and sing Raine Raine go away. It was not just Diana.
. From the biographies I read, Diana was withdrawn, the effect of her mother leaving the family. Like a post traumatic stress disorder effect.
And the story of Raine and Diana has been told endlessly for over 20 years and the tapes were out ca. 2004 and are readily seen on Youtube. So this is not exactly a "new discovery."
The strategy for Charles supporters (like Penny Junor) seem to make Diana appear like a witch and a "mad" witch at that. Giving her no redeeming qualities, Junor even criticized Diana as a mother in several books (which most of her critics have not done and have acknowledged she was a good mother to her sons, and her sons have said she was a wonderful mother). Junor has no clue but wants C and C to be "vindicated" by tearing Diana apart posthumously. Even saying things Diana did with no proof or source of how she got the information. Like tearing apart Charles' sketching materials on their honeymoon. There is no proof of this. None whatsoever. And isn't it interesting how Junor used her "sources" as Charles' friends. I can only imagine what they would say to please Charles. Diana's dead and can be freely trashed. Junor in reality did no favors to C and C since her bolstering Camilla as the savior of the monarchy was downright laughable to some.
So it is sad that the only 'defense' of what C and C did is to bash DIana. And Junor also made APB a casualty trashing him for his cheating. But giving a free pass to Charles for sleeping with his friends' wives.
I think as decades go by there will be books where both sides are presented and the researcher talks to people who are sympathetic to Charles and to people sympathetic to Diana. And no gossipy hearsay would be allowed. I think only then will there be a fair analysis of the marriage. It may not come though in Charles' lifetime.
@Duch_Luver_4ever -I won't quote your entire post, but I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said in it. I especially like the fact that you shared that Diana was able to eventually move past some of the more contentious times in her relationships with others and come to a more civil one. At the time of her death, she'd done so with Raine and appeared to have established a better one with Charles for the benefit of their sons. Had she lived, perhaps she and Frances might have reconnected.
Thanks
@TLLK the hopeful part of me would have liked to see her and Frances patch things up had she lived, but that was going to be a tough one.
I will say this to those that feel any criticism of Diana helps Charles and/or is bad. Besides being helpful of gaining a deeper perspective of her life, I also think it was just a case of she lived her life more emotionally and more fully in a lot of ways that most people.
For example, not many teenagers would have a friend write a poison pen letter to their step mom, but ALSO most teenagers wouldnt think to dance backwards with a wheelchair bound person to make them feel more normal, or to do errands with her car for her employer who didnt have one. You likely wouldnt have one without the other. Thats why I can look more critically at her ups and downs, its all part of the package, and on balance it was sweet wonderful person who could make ppl feel special and could make you feel special towards her, but like all of us had some rough edges. :flower:
I think criticism is one thing, trashing another. Junor specializes in trashing. Bradford criticized Diana but never trashed her. And other authors as well.
Indeed Charles and Diana came together during their last year to be at appearances involving their sons.
Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on September 24, 2017, 04:50:00 PM
Thanks @TLLK the hopeful part of me would have liked to see her and Frances patch things up had she lived, but that was going to be a tough one.
I will say this to those that feel any criticism of Diana helps Charles and/or is bad. Besides being helpful of gaining a deeper perspective of her life, I also think it was just a case of she lived her life more emotionally and more fully in a lot of ways that most people.
For example, not many teenagers would have a friend write a poison pen letter to their step mom, but ALSO most teenagers wouldnt think to dance backwards with a wheelchair bound person to make them feel more normal, or to do errands with her car for her employer who didnt have one. You likely wouldnt have one without the other. Thats why I can look more critically at her ups and downs, its all part of the package, and on balance it was sweet wonderful person who could make ppl feel special and could make you feel special towards her, but like all of us had some rough edges. :flower:
@Duch_Luver_4ever - :goodpost: I agree with your post and yes it might have been easier for Diana and Fergie to make up than Diana and Frances. Also it does humanize these figures from history to know that they too were simply human beings. Even those monarchs that have been canonized by their respective churches, likely had their moments when they failed the "paragon of virtue" litmus test.
I think a lot would have depended on who she ended up with, and of course once Frances health started to decline (we dont know when the Spencers knew that her behavior wasnt just from the bottom of a bottle due to her illness).
I doubt that just about all of the historical monarchs/figures, etc. could have held up to the 24 hr news cycle that they have to deal with today. Even just the time from Ed VII to Charles you can see the rapid evolution of media scrutiny and things that were acceptable becoming un-acceptable, so imagine Henry VIII trying to dodge press heading to a stagecoach after "Boleyn-gate" or something :lol: :teehee: :lol:
Royal Lovers - Camilla, Diana and Charles Documentary Documentary 2017 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpJ162zJIcM&t=23s)
Quote from: Duch_Luver_4ever on September 24, 2017, 05:49:03 PM
I think a lot would have depended on who she ended up with, and of course once Frances health started to decline (we dont know when the Spencers knew that her behavior wasnt just from the bottom of a bottle due to her illness).
I doubt that just about all of the historical monarchs/figures, etc. could have held up to the 24 hr news cycle that they have to deal with today. Even just the time from Ed VII to Charles you can see the rapid evolution of media scrutiny and things that were acceptable becoming un-acceptable, so imagine Henry VIII trying to dodge press heading to a stagecoach after "Boleyn-gate" or something :lol: :teehee: :lol:
Royal Lovers - Camilla, Diana and Charles Documentary Documentary 2017 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LpJ162zJIcM&t=23s)
That's very funny Duch_ and very true! If the number of mistresses Edward VII had got out to the general public had got out he would have been hanged, drawn and quartered by the British public, considering how popular his wife Alexandra was. A lot of middleclass and religious people did regard him then as a very wicked man, with known gambling and infidelity, but they didn't know anything really. Plus, Edward VIII certainly wouldn't have been able to hide Wallis away for years, the press would have been surrounding her and Ernest's London flat straight after Edward began visiting. There are so many, the Prince Regent, for example, probably never have reached the throne!