The War Of The Wales Years & Behaviour Of All Those Involved

[TLLK]

and Diana was bulimic, unprepared for life and immature

Sadly this was not going to prepare her for life with the BRF. IMO the BRF has restructured the manner in which new royal brides are introduced to royal life. Even Charles and Anne shared that they did not receive much in the way of training and were expected to just learn by observation. I do believe that both Diana and Sarah should have been given more time to adjust to their new roles in life as Princess of Wales and Duchess of York. Sophie, Camilla and Kate have been granted a longer adjustment period and IMO this has benefited them.

[TLLK]

I cant' help feeling that she was more polite to Charles in the last few months because she was beginning to become aware that her public weren't quite as adoring as before and neither were the press.. so it looked better if she was more pleasant to C and did not bash him all the time. and perhaps she realised  that it was hurting the children as well

I believe over time that she realized that her parenting style differed from Charles, but that he did love them deeply and was a good father to them. If their relationship became more cordial then I believe it would have been observed by the boys and that could have been reassuring to them.

Possible but do you have any evidence?  I know that Gilbey said critical things about Charles as a parent in his contribution to Morton, but I don't know if these were rescinded at any stage by Di or her friends. The problem was that in Morton she really attacked Charles, made him out ot be a carton villain, and someone with no good points and I think that that "overkill" in her attack on hm, eventual began to look ridiculous ot the public and they began to think "hang on, he has his faults but is he really THAT bad?"  and once that happened I think that the public were more willing to feel that if Di had lied or exaggerated in er attack on her husband to such an extent, maybe it was all or mostly lies or spite...

It's been a very long time since I've read the Morton book. I should check it out again at some time.

[amabel]

Hmm. I think that the RF thought back in the 70s or 80s that anyone marrying into the RF knew what they were getting into.  they were from the same class roughly as the RF, and usually knew about their social life and the way they lived. Di was from a court family, Fergie was not so grand but still she had connections. Rob Fellowes was her cousin...  You dint' have to be brilliantly clever to know that Charles liked rural life and sports and that he had ideas bout stuff like architethure and so on, and liked to make speeches on these issues. I think however that Diana didn't see beyond the glamour of being a member of the RF and her own infatuation for Charles, and didn't realise how rigid the life was back then or that Charles wasn't an independent individual who coud live is life as he pleased, he was a part of the institution of the RF and had to live in a certain way with various duties to perform and his wife was meant to join in that.

I think it is good that the RF has now allowed its members to spend a lot longer courting their wives and women like Kate have had plenty of time to get to know their partners and to see if they like the Royal life and can cope. and perhaps its good that someone like Kate was allowed to "start slow" when actually married.  However I kind of think that K has started too slow and that in some ways, its not unreasonable to expect  a royal wife to get stuck in fairly quickly. I don't really know if a longer "starting to get into the work" would have rally helped Di, she was more unprepared for "Private Royal life" than the public side of it. She got the hang of the public duties, but she did not fit in with the rest of the RF in her private life.  Same with Fergie, she was OK with the public duties at first, and she fitted in better In the family life, but she is just naturally loud and vulgar, and was clumsy, if enthusiastic.. and soon her vulgarity began to irritate them in private.. I think she enjoyed rural sports much more than DI did, but she's really a "sunshine hols" girl and someone who saw being royal as "being rich"...
I think that the problem with letting new wives start slow, is that it can lead to them never getting into a decent workload at all.. I think that's lilkey to happen to Kate, she's not enthusiastic about the work and I don't think she'll ever do much. Wit Sophie she wasn't supposed to do royal duties, but when her business got into trouble the Queen put her foot down and said she had to join in and give up the business side.. With Cam, she was obviously an unusual case, the first time a second wife had come into the RF after a  divorce, and unpopular with the public.. so I think her starting slow was good, in that it gave the public a chance to get to see her gradually and she's increased her popularity

[amabel]

TLlk YES  she was looking for a property in England.  There was a whole big drama that she wanted to rent one of the Althrop houses and she and Charles S then ended up having  big row about it. I wont bother recounting it all, its in  some bios, but I think that when she hit problems, in renting one of her brother's houses she seems ot have given up on finding a  country house. I think that was because she didn't really care for country life herself and the boys already DID have Balmoral to go to. I think she didn't really want a country house for herself, only for the boys and maybe she felt if she took them to somewhere in the country at weekends, she'd never see them as they'd be out shooting.  I think that she tried to give them  activities and "fun abroad", like the Mediterranean or American places, and she did manage to avoid the press to some extent it seems in the US... but not so much on her last holiday with Al Fayed.  But I don't really know of any evidence that she ever really came out and said that se knew that Charles Had a differnet parenting style but that it was in its way a good one. She knew they enjoyed their times with Charles, and liked Balmoral because it is isolated and they could escape the press and the crowds there, and do their country things... but I'm not sure she was all that happy with it.  She knew that however in the end they were going to have to grow up "Windsor" rather than Spencer...

[amabel]

well if she thought that, then I don't seet that she would have reconsidered and felt that he was a good parent. 

[cinrit]

TLlk YES  she was looking for a property in England.  There was a whole big drama that she wanted to rent one of the Althrop houses and she and Charles S then ended up having  big row about it.

As I remember, Charles Spencer offered her one of the houses on his estate, but then rescinded the offer.  He thought Diana with the two boys on the property would attract too many paparazzi.

Cindy

[amabel]

well I though that this thread was about Diana, not Charles. If you want to talk about his parenting, surely it would be better to go to the Charles section.
as for Charles S, yes he did rescind his offer, of the Garden House.  I think that he could have been more careful about making the offer, and taken the security considerations into account before he did so...It wasn't' up to him ot provide security, but to Di's PPOs and the local police, but it was fetlt that it wasn't a great location and that it wouldn't be easy to keep it safe and secruer.  Plus Charles S was not too Happy about the idea of paparazzi camping around his estate.  however he DID offer Di other houses on the estate and she refused them in a  temper. the row got so bad that he returned her letters unopened and asked her to return the Spencer Tiara.

[cinrit]

Thanks, amabel.  I'd forgotten that he'd offered her other properties.

Cindy

[sandy]

well I though that this thread was about Diana, not Charles. If you want to talk about his parenting, surely it would be better to go to the Charles section.
as for Charles S, yes he did rescind his offer, of the Garden House.  I think that he could have been more careful about making the offer, and taken the security considerations into account before he did so...It wasn't' up to him ot provide security, but to Di's PPOs and the local police, but it was fetlt that it wasn't a great location and that it wouldn't be easy to keep it safe and secruer.  Plus Charles S was not too Happy about the idea of paparazzi camping around his estate.  however he DID offer Di other houses on the estate and she refused them in a  temper. the row got so bad that he returned her letters unopened and asked her to return the Spencer Tiara.

The Spencer tiara was loaned to Diana, it did not belong to her. I don't recall reading that he "demanded" she return it. It was only a temporary loan, the Tiara belonged to him.

Nobody knows what sort of property (other) he offered to Diana. None of us were there. Maybe it was inadequate. Why all the judgments over Diana?

[TLLK]

TLlk YES  she was looking for a property in England.  There was a whole big drama that she wanted to rent one of the Althrop houses and she and Charles S then ended up having  big row about it. I wont bother recounting it all, its in  some bios, but I think that when she hit problems, in renting one of her brother's houses she seems ot have given up on finding a  country house. I think that was because she didn't really care for country life herself and the boys already DID have Balmoral to go to. I think she didn't really want a country house for herself, only for the boys and maybe she felt if she took them to somewhere in the country at weekends, she'd never see them as they'd be out shooting.  I think that she tried to give them  activities and "fun abroad", like the Mediterranean or American places, and she did manage to avoid the press to some extent it seems in the US... but not so much on her last holiday with Al Fayed.  But I don't really know of any evidence that she ever really came out and said that se knew that Charles Had a differnet parenting style but that it was in its way a good one. She knew they enjoyed their times with Charles, and liked Balmoral because it is isolated and they could escape the press and the crowds there, and do their country things... but I'm not sure she was all that happy with it.  She knew that however in the end they were going to have to grow up "Windsor" rather than Spencer...

Thank you amabel. I'd stopped reading about Diana at this point in her life so I appreciate the information.
Double post auto-merged: November 02, 2014, 03:23:57 PM

well I though that this thread was about Diana, not Charles. If you want to talk about his parenting, surely it would be better to go to the Charles section.
as for Charles S, yes he did rescind his offer, of the Garden House.  I think that he could have been more careful about making the offer, and taken the security considerations into account before he did so...It wasn't' up to him ot provide security, but to Di's PPOs and the local police, but it was fetlt that it wasn't a great location and that it wouldn't be easy to keep it safe and secruer.  Plus Charles S was not too Happy about the idea of paparazzi camping around his estate.  however he DID offer Di other houses on the estate and she refused them in a  temper. the row got so bad that he returned her letters unopened and asked her to return the Spencer Tiara.

Balmoral and Sandringham do offer the privacy and security that might not have been something that Althorp could accomodate. It's too bad that the siblings were not able to settle it amicably.

[amabel]

Well according to what I've read, Charles S did offer other properties on the estate, that were easier to secured.. Ken Wharfe IIRC seems ot have agreed with him that the Garden house wasn't suitable from that POV and that Charles S did his best to offer other places that might have been more suitable. However I think that there were faults on both sides with the 2 Spencers - Di was not willing to compromise and I think she felt annoyed that Charles S hadn't been - she felt - supportive....and I think that Charles had not tought things through properly, and offered the House then took it back...and I suspect that perhaps he was not keen on having his sister living there at weekends, because there WOULD be paps hanging around...
The row seems to have escalated and took quite a while before they settled it.  Not I think till the last year of Di's life when she met hm in S Africa.

[TLLK]

 :truce:Well at least they'd settled it prior to her death.

[amabel]

Well not to discuss Sarah on this thread at length - yes she was pretty stupid if she didn't realise that a serving naval officer is going to be away a lot of the time.. (and yeah Sara is pretty stupid)./
and true that Diana was "off sick" during her pregnancy because of morning sickness

[TLLK]

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

[Trudie]

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

Diana as I remember suffered morning sickness with William. I recall her saying at the time "Nobody ever told me I would feel like this". I believe Diana had an easier time with Harry she seemed to be out more.

[sandy]

and Diana was bulimic, unprepared for life and immature

Sadly this was not going to prepare her for life with the BRF. IMO the BRF has restructured the manner in which new royal brides are introduced to royal life. Even Charles and Anne shared that they did not receive much in the way of training and were expected to just learn by observation. I do believe that both Diana and Sarah should have been given more time to adjust to their new roles in life as Princess of Wales and Duchess of York. Sophie, Camilla and Kate have been granted a longer adjustment period and IMO this has benefited them.

Sophie is a minor royal. Camilla was around for a long time to put it mildly.

I think Kate's "adjustment" period is way overlong. She is not stupid.

Diana's issues had to do with the marital issues with Charles not work.

Sarah had other problems.

[TLLK]

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

Diana as I remember suffered morning sickness with William. I recall her saying at the time "Nobody ever told me I would feel like this". I believe Diana had an easier time with Harry she seemed to be out more.

She's right about people not sharing the information about  morning sickness along with other pregnancy related symptoms. Plus no doubt she was surprised by the fatigue factor as well that comes with the first trimester.
Double post auto-merged: November 03, 2014, 03:33:45 AM

and Diana was bulimic, unprepared for life and immature

Sadly this was not going to prepare her for life with the BRF. IMO the BRF has restructured the manner in which new royal brides are introduced to royal life. Even Charles and Anne shared that they did not receive much in the way of training and were expected to just learn by observation. I do believe that both Diana and Sarah should have been given more time to adjust to their new roles in life as Princess of Wales and Duchess of York. Sophie, Camilla and Kate have been granted a longer adjustment period and IMO this has benefited them.

Sophie is a minor royal. Camilla was around for a long time to put it mildly.

I think Kate's "adjustment" period is way overlong. She is not stupid.

Diana's issues had to do with the marital issues with Charles not work.

Sarah had other problems.

I have to disagree about Sophie being considered a minor royal in 1999. By the time Sophie married into the BRF she was one of the higher ranking ladies. In the order of precedence rules at that time she would have ranked higher than a few of the other ladies  due being Edward's wife.  When Camilla entered into the family then that order became more "flexible" depending upon if Edward would be present or not. The Queen Mother and Princess Margaret were rarely doing any public engagements by 1999 either.

The Wessexes were not expected to be full time royals at the time of their marriage and it wasn't until Ardent was doing poorly and the fall out from the "Fake Sheik" that the decision was made to have them join the Firm on a full time basis.

As for Camilla, she'd been around the royal family for many years but not as a member.  :)

[cate1949]

Fergie knew he'd be at sea a lot - but she thought she could go with him - that is - move to the base nearest where ever his ship was.  The problem was that the UK had less bases overseas and hence no place for family to go.  So they had huge periods of separation.  But still - Fergie clearly was out of control at some point and I doubt that having hubby around was going to change that.

Re: Edward - I used flat broke as a metaphor - but he  discovered according to this secretary who would know - not going to have the lifestyle he was used too if he was not King.  There is of course the story about him squirreling away 250,000 pounds ( a fortune at that time) from his Duchy of Cornwall income and sending Wallis with the money in a suitcase to France while the whole abdication scenario played out.  He lied to his brother George VI about how much money he had and was therefore able to get money out of George's personal income (the gov refused to pay him as ex King) which was one of the sources of the Queen Mother's dislike of him.  The apartment in Paris was supplied to him rent free for life by the French government which has always seemed rather odd to me. 

   

[amabel]

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

Possibly but she was off sick at times during her first pregnancy, because of illness.  She gave up engagements later in the pregnancy and then was off after the birth.  She wasn't working any harder than many pregnant women..
Anyway to return to the subject, I think that while Charles was foolsih to do the Dimbleby interview, he only "did it once" during the war of the walsess.. he did probably allow his Friends to brief journalists.  I think that in general his attiacks were defensive ones...

[Trudie]

^ I do not recall Diana giving up any engagements during her pregnancy. If I recall correctly No thought was given to her role and her engagements were mostly with Charles she became pregnant a couple of months into the marriage. The pregnancy was announced because Diana fell asleep during a concert wearing what the press called the Gorganza dress as she was tired.

[TLLK]

^^^Trudie when the Cambridges announced their first child was on the way and that she was suffering from HG, old archival videos were shown where Charles was apologizing for Diana's absence due to morning sickness episodes.  :)

[sandy]

Diana while pregnant with William went on the tour of Wales. She worked the crowds and they took to her. There are photos of her in the tan coat and hat in the rain. She also learned Welsh and spoke at an assembly. Her not appearing was the exception not the rule. In fact, I have a book about Charles and Diana that covers their early months (when she was pregnant with William) and she was quite active.
Double post auto-merged: November 03, 2014, 04:31:13 PM

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

Possibly but she was off sick at times during her first pregnancy, because of illness.  She gave up engagements later in the pregnancy and then was off after the birth.  She wasn't working any harder than many pregnant women..
Anyway to return to the subject, I think that while Charles was foolsih to do the Dimbleby interview, he only "did it once" during the war of the walsess.. he did probably allow his Friends to brief journalists.  I think that in general his attiacks were defensive ones...

Charles allowed his friends to trash his wife a lot more than one time. And before the Morton book.

Is it a sport where since Charles did this "only once" he wins? His interview and book caused much turmoil including the divorce of the PBs and complaints by his siblings over how he depicted their parents.

Diana was out and about before and after Will's birth even when she was suffering the rampant bulimia and postpartum depression. She was skin and bones but still was out working. She did work hard.

There are photos of her heavily pregnant going to polo matches with Charles.
Double post auto-merged: November 03, 2014, 04:35:19 PM

I can't recall if nausea was an issue with her second pregnancy but it was in her first. Apparently bacon and tomatoes was a combination that she was able to keep down. (That first trimester can really bring on some interesting choices in food.)

Diana as I remember suffered morning sickness with William. I recall her saying at the time "Nobody ever told me I would feel like this". I believe Diana had an easier time with Harry she seemed to be out more.

She's right about people not sharing the information about  morning sickness along with other pregnancy related symptoms. Plus no doubt she was surprised by the fatigue factor as well that comes with the first trimester.
Double post auto-merged: November 03, 2014, 03:33:45 AM

and Diana was bulimic, unprepared for life and immature

Sadly this was not going to prepare her for life with the BRF. IMO the BRF has restructured the manner in which new royal brides are introduced to royal life. Even Charles and Anne shared that they did not receive much in the way of training and were expected to just learn by observation. I do believe that both Diana and Sarah should have been given more time to adjust to their new roles in life as Princess of Wales and Duchess of York. Sophie, Camilla and Kate have been granted a longer adjustment period and IMO this has benefited them.

Sophie is a minor royal. Camilla was around for a long time to put it mildly.

I think Kate's "adjustment" period is way overlong. She is not stupid.

Diana's issues had to do with the marital issues with Charles not work.

Sarah had other problems.

I have to disagree about Sophie being considered a minor royal in 1999. By the time Sophie married into the BRF she was one of the higher ranking ladies. In the order of precedence rules at that time she would have ranked higher than a few of the other ladies  due being Edward's wife.  When Camilla entered into the family then that order became more "flexible" depending upon if Edward would be present or not. The Queen Mother and Princess Margaret were rarely doing any public engagements by 1999 either.

The Wessexes were not expected to be full time royals at the time of their marriage and it wasn't until Ardent was doing poorly and the fall out from the "Fake Sheik" that the decision was made to have them join the Firm on a full time basis.

As for Camilla, she'd been around the royal family for many years but not as a member.  :)

Edward was and is way down in line of succession. Their wedding coverage no where near the pomp of his elder brothers' weddings. Their children are not using titles of Prince and Princess.

Sophie is never going to be Queen Consort and can live a relatively low key life with Edward.
Double post auto-merged: November 03, 2014, 04:36:31 PM

Well not to discuss Sarah on this thread at length - yes she was pretty stupid if she didn't realise that a serving naval officer is going to be away a lot of the time.. (and yeah Sara is pretty stupid)./
and true that Diana was "off sick" during her pregnancy because of morning sickness

I have a whole book of photos of Charles and Diana's earliest tours. For someone "off sick" she appears very active to me.  There are countless photos of the two of them, enough for a book.

[amabel]

^^^Trudie when the Cambridges announced their first child was on the way and that she was suffering from HG, old archival videos were shown where Charles was apologizing for Diana's absence due to morning sickness episodes.  :)

yes she did cancel engagements.  I remember well because she was such an intriguing public figure at the time and Charles was indeed apologising because she Had to stay home and cancel her engagements.

[KaTerina Montague]

I admire Camilla for stastaying quiet and not reacting when she was under attack. I can only assume she and Charles had to lean on each other greatly. I feel it says something about her than Andrew still wanted to protect her evendors though he was seeing another woman and she was seeing another man. With the hell Tom and Laura went through, it is astonishing that they turned out as well as they have.

[sandy]

Camila had a powerful man doing the speaking for her via a Spin Team. Mark Bolland worked with Camilla which included Spin. Why on earth would she need to react?
She DID speak to the Sun Editor for ten years and was active undermining Diana for years. I don't see this woman in any way, shape or form "admirable."

Charles was said to give Laura and Tom large  trust funds. And Tom gets to refer to Sir and Mum when he's plugging his books and his cooking enterprises.

Charles has a powerful spin machine which has the Great Love Myth, Noble Camilla, Diana the Mad and other things that work for some of the population. I am not buying into it.

It is laughable to me that Camilla is considered a Victim. She chose to have the affair with Charles while both were married to others, she was involved with him pre Diana, she chose not to back off after he married Diana and was always in Charles' life one way or another. She got all sorts of perks and bling and now has the HRH and with that some consider this woman a living saint which she decidedly is not.

She did not get where she is today by being "compassionate."