Giving up the title HRH

oak_and_cedar · November 25, 2019, 06:00:16 PM

Diana should have been allowed to keep her HRH title. She was the mother of the future king after all. What was the benefit of having the mother of a future king being a lady Diana?

Can a HRH title be re instated posthumously? Does anyone know?

sandy · November 25, 2019, 08:48:24 PM

Yes she should have IMO.

Curryong · November 25, 2019, 09:56:29 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on November 25, 2019, 06:00:16 PM
Diana should have been allowed to keep her HRH title. She was the mother of the future king after all. What was the benefit of having the mother of a future king being a lady Diana?

Can a HRH title be re instated posthumously? Does anyone know?

I agree with you. I think it should have remained with Diana until remarriage. An HRH is a substantive styling not an actual title, but as George V showed in 1917 the Sovereign can take an HRH away without a divorce in play. And it can also be restored at any time. It's in the Sovereign's hands. In theory William could restore his mother's HRH when he is King. I don't think he will though.

It's Royal Dukedoms (and Earldoms) that require Acts of Parliament to be removed, so Andrew's titles are safe.

sandy · November 25, 2019, 10:44:41 PM

The Spencers supposedly refused the posthumous HRH at the time Diana died (I read the Queen made the offer. William may want to go along with the wish of his Spencer relatives.

LouisFerdinand · November 25, 2019, 11:40:14 PM

Could Princess Diana have given up the title Her Royal Highness and been given the title of Her Highness instead?

amabel · December 29, 2019, 04:30:48 PM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on November 25, 2019, 11:40:14 PM
Could Princess Diana have given up the title Her Royal Highness and been given the title of Her Highness instead?

Not likely. the style "Her highness" has never been used much in the UK.

TLLK · January 01, 2020, 09:48:06 PM

The style of HH (His/Her Highness) was more or less removed about 100 years ago, though it was not really used that much from what I have read.

amabel · January 01, 2020, 09:53:00 PM

Quote from: TLLK on January 01, 2020, 09:48:06 PM
The style of HH (His/Her Highness) was more or less removed about 100 years ago, though it was not really used that much from what I have read.

I think ti was only used for the daughters of princess Helena.. Helena Vic and Marie Louise.. because they gave up their German titles and were just known as Princess HV and Pss ML.. (I may be wrong but I think that was the only instance of HH being used?)

oak_and_cedar · January 01, 2020, 10:09:03 PM

Quote from: sandy on November 25, 2019, 10:44:41 PM
The Spencers supposedly refused the posthumous HRH at the time Diana died (I read the Queen made the offer. William may want to go along with the wish of his Spencer relatives.

Why would they refuse posthumous HRH? What was their reasoning for this?

amabel · January 01, 2020, 10:10:10 PM

because it would be foolish. Titles are not for the dead..

oak_and_cedar · January 01, 2020, 10:23:09 PM

I'm new to this so I hope this is not a silly question. But has no one ever bestowed a title or given one back to someone deceased?

TLLK · January 01, 2020, 11:22:29 PM

@oak_and_cedar - AFAIK not in the 20th or 21st centuries.

Trudie · January 01, 2020, 11:54:03 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 10:09:03 PM
Why would they refuse posthumous HRH? What was their reasoning for this?

I remember at the time it was said The Spencer family turned it down as Diana would have preferred to be known by her then title Diana Princess of Wales at the time of her death.

Curryong · January 02, 2020, 12:23:08 AM

From what I've read there was a short rather snappy exchange between Charles Spencer and Robert Fellowes on the train journey to the internment at Althorp. Several royals were on the train and Fellowes (obviously with HM's consent) tentatively put forward the possibility of a posthumous restoring of the HRH then.

However, my own theory is that the noble Earl (ha) was then in full family mode of 'The Spencers claim their own back. We don't need your royal titles now or ever!'

Remember his oration at the funeral included allusions to his sister's 'birth family', to stultifying Royal traditions with regard to his nephews, and Diana 'needing no Royal titles' to be who she was.

I think it was his decision and his alone to knock back any posthumous HRH, IF one was offered. I mean there's really no proof, just various stories that the HRH was going to be restored if the Spencer family wished it. I don't believe Charles S consulted with his mother or sisters but refused it off his own bat.

Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 01:24:13 AM

From Wiki, with regard to the two daughters of Princess Helena, Queen Victotia's daughter, and her husband Prince Christian of Scheswig-Holstein-Augustenberg, and their each being given the styling of Her Highness in 1917. They were left with no territorial assignation (ie York, Kent etc) in 1917, as a result of their father having a German title. It was rather awkward as they could not be given a Royal Dukedom, being females, nor could their surviving brother Albert, who was fighting for Imperial Germany and had just inherited a German title from the Empress of Germany's brother, who had been known to Victoria as 'the abominable Gunther'(!) who was head of the S-H-A House in Germany.

From wiki.

It appears that Victoria gave her grandchildren by Helena and Christian the stylings of His/Her Highness from birth rather than have them be known as 'Serene Highness' a German styling for persons of their rank.

Titles, styles, honours and arms Edit

Titles and styles Edit
1870?1917: Her Highness Princess Helena Victoria of Schleswig-Holstein
1917?1948: Her Highness Princess Helena Victoria
As a male-line granddaughter of the Duke of Schleswig-Holstein, Princess Helena Victoria would have been styled Serene Highness (Durchlaucht). In May 1866, Queen Victoria had conferred the higher style of Highness upon any children to be born of the marriage of Princess Helena and Prince Christian, although the children were to remain Prince or Princess of Schleswig-Holstein. In June 1917, a notice appeared in the Court Circular that a Royal Warrant was to be prepared by George V dispensing with his cousins' use of the "Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Augustenburg" part of their titles. However no warrant was issued, nor were they formally granted the titles of Princesses of Great Britain and Ireland nor of the United Kingdom.[5]

amabel · January 02, 2020, 08:20:34 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on January 01, 2020, 10:23:09 PM
I'm new to this so I hope this is not a silly question. But has no one ever bestowed a title or given one back to someone deceased?

Not that I know of. Titles are for the living not for the dead. What is the point of putting HRH on a gravestone? I think the Spencers were (if the offer was made, its not clear) reluctant to take it. THey felt that Diana had "no need of a royal title" and that it was too late now to give it to her..

Curryong · January 02, 2020, 11:07:42 AM

Until the contract for her marriage to King Alfonso XIII of was signed in 1906 Ena Battenberg, the only daughter of Beatrice, the youngest child of Queen Victoria, was a Highness. King Edward VII, who was very pleased with her prospective marriage, then elevated her to an HRH. Ena's two surviving brothers were also Highnesses until 1917. It seems that Victoria issued LPs for the children of her two daughters who had married into minor German Houses into Highnesses as otherwise they would be merely Serene or Illustrious Highnesses (in German fashion) as their fathers had been. (Henry of Battenberg, Beatrice's husband, was made an HRH in 1885, so he could be of equal rank with his new wife.)

sandy · January 02, 2020, 12:30:09 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:20:34 AM
Not that I know of. Titles are for the living not for the dead. What is the point of putting HRH on a gravestone? I think the Spencers were (if the offer was made, its not clear) reluctant to take it. THey felt that Diana had "no need of a royal title" and that it was too late now to give it to her..

DIana now has grandchildren. Down the road it might please her descendants to have it restored.

amabel · January 02, 2020, 01:41:37 PM

Quote from: sandy on January 02, 2020, 12:30:09 PM
DIana now has grandchildren. Down the road it might please her descendants to have it restored.

Why? Diana has no need of titles.. she is gone.

TLLK · January 02, 2020, 01:42:10 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 08:20:34 AM
Not that I know of. Titles are for the living not for the dead. What is the point of putting HRH on a gravestone? I think the Spencers were (if the offer was made, its not clear) reluctant to take it. THey felt that Diana had "no need of a royal title" and that it was too late now to give it to her..

Perhaps too they knew that she believed that she didn't need the style HRH any longer as she already had her Diana, Princess of Wales title in addition to her own.

amabel · January 02, 2020, 01:44:23 PM

Quote from: TLLK on January 02, 2020, 01:42:10 PM
Perhaps too they knew that she believed that she didn't need the style HRH any longer as she already had her Diana, Princess of Wales title in addition to her own.

She didn't have any title though. She only had a courtesy title of Lady Diana.. and if she had remarried to a mr Smith, she would have just been known as Lady Diana Smith..I think the Spencers were showing their usual attitude of thumbling their noses at royalty.. and saying "Diana was a Spencer and well known in her own right, she did not need an HRH". Diana DID make a last ditch attempt to keep the HRH before the divorce...

Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 01:54:37 PM

Quote from: Curryong on January 02, 2020, 11:07:42 AM
Until the contract for her marriage to King Alfonso XIII of was signed in 1906 Ena Battenberg, the only daughter of Beatrice, the youngest child of Queen Victoria, was a Highness. King Edward VII, who was very pleased with her prospective marriage, then elevated her to an HRH. Ena's two surviving brothers were also Highnesses until 1917. It seems that Victoria issued LPs for the children of her two daughters who had married into minor German Houses into Highnesses as otherwise they would be merely Serene or Illustrious Highnesses (in German fashion) as their fathers had been. (Henry of Battenberg, Beatrice's husband, was made an HRH in 1885, so he could be of equal rank with his new wife.)

I didn't know about the Battenbergs.. as I recall though they later (the boys) lost their titles and became Lord Lepold and Lord Something Mountbatten, didn't they during WWI?

sandy · January 02, 2020, 04:31:52 PM

Well she died young and had no chance to remarry so she was Diana, Princess of Wales when she died. I don't blame the Spencers I think Diana was treated very badly by the royals. Spencer was not speaking for Diana, DIana was dead and did not give her consent for him to speak for her before she died. Diana gave up the idea of getting the HRH. THe divorce went through and I never heard of any "last ditch attempts." I think she would not have remained "Lady DIana" if she remarried. IF she had lived, I think WIlliam would have upgraded her title when he became King.

Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 04:32:49 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 01:41:37 PM
Why? Diana has no need of titles.. she is gone.

Maybe her grandchildren will not agree with you. SHe's not "gone" to them, they carry her DNA.

Curryong · January 02, 2020, 08:01:38 PM

Quote from: amabel on January 02, 2020, 01:44:23 PM
She didn't have any title though. She only had a courtesy title of Lady Diana.. and if she had remarried to a mr Smith, she would have just been known as Lady Diana Smith..I think the Spencers were showing their usual attitude of thumbling their noses at royalty.. and saying "Diana was a Spencer and well known in her own right, she did not need an HRH". Diana DID make a last ditch attempt to keep the HRH before the divorce...
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 01:54:37 PM

I didn't know about the Battenbergs.. as I recall though they later (the boys) lost their titles and became Lord Lepold and Lord Something Mountbatten, didn't they during WWI?

Yes, Alexander became the first (and last) Marquess of Carisbrooke in 1917 when George V rearranged things. He had only the one child, a daughter Iris, who led a strange and rather wild life. Lord Leopold was a haemophiliac and died in his twenties after an operation. Like many of the King's relatives the Battenbergs were rather miffed at having the stylings and ancestral titles they'd lived with all their lives, gone in one fell swoop.

This was apparently very much so with Victoria (Battenberg) as she was very upset and angry after the war about George's lack of action in rescuing the Imperial Family in Russia, plus there was of course the humiliation of Louis having been removed as First Sea Lord, because of his German blood when he'd devoted his whole life since boyhood to the Royal Navy. And then the loss of their family name....

amabel · January 02, 2020, 08:04:36 PM

Quote from: sandy on January 02, 2020, 04:31:52 PM
Well she died young and had no chance to remarry so she was Diana, Princess of Wales when she died. I don't blame the Spencers I think Diana was treated very badly by the royals. Spencer was not speaking for Diana, DIana was dead and did not give her consent for him to speak for her before she died. Diana gave up the idea of getting the HRH. THe divorce went through and I never heard of any "last ditch attempts." I think she would not have remained "Lady DIana" if she remarried. IF she had lived, I think WIlliam would have upgraded her title when he became King.
Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 04:32:49 PM

Maybe her grandchildren will not agree with you. SHe's not "gone" to them, they carry her DNA.

why would they need her to have an HRH? Does ti really matter? She knew that when she went for a divorce that she would never be queen and that she'd probably lose her HRH.. so if it was that important to her she would not have goen for it... and I can't see what it has to do with her grandchildren. are they bothered because their grandmother died as Diana Princess of wales? would they have been upset if she had married a commoner and ended up Lady Diana Smith? really?

TLLK · January 02, 2020, 08:15:45 PM

Quote
Maybe her grandchildren will not agree with you. SHe's not "gone" to them, they carry her DNA.

However her DNA was not what made her HRH The Princess of Wales and later Diana, Princess of Wales. It was her marriage to the Prince of Wales that gave her the style (HRH) and the title Princess of Wales. After her divorce, she was Diana, Princess of Wales.

Her DNA that may or may not be inherited by her sons and grandchildren will possibly determine things like height, facial structure, hair color, intelligence, athletic ability etc...Their parents will be the ones to discuss their late paternal grandmother with them. Later they can discover more information about her by talking to her surviving siblings, friends, staff and reading about her.

amabel · January 02, 2020, 08:19:42 PM

Quote from: TLLK on January 02, 2020, 08:15:45 PM
However her DNA was not what made her HRH The Princess of Wales and later Diana, Princess of Wales. It was her marriage to the Prince of Wales that gave her the style (HRH) and the title Princess of Wales. After her divorce, she was Diana, Princess of Wales.

Her DNA that may or may not be inherited by her sons and grandchildren will possibly determine things like height, facial structure, hair color, intelligence, athletic ability etc...Their parents will be the ones to discuss their late paternal grandmother with them. Later they can discover more information about her by talking to her surviving siblings, friends, staff and reading about her.

I can't see what it matters to her grandchildren.. who did not even know her personally...

Double post auto-merged: January 02, 2020, 08:21:30 PM

Quote from: Curryong on January 02, 2020, 08:01:38 PM
Yes, Alexander became the first (and last) Marquess of Carisbrooke in 1917 when George V rearranged things. He had only the one child, a daughter Iris, who led a strange and rather wild life. Lord Leopold was a haemophiliac and died in his twenties after an operation. Like many of the King's relatives the Battenbergs were rather miffed at having the stylings and ancestral titles they'd lived with all their lives, gone in one fell swoop.

T

there were rumours, I believe that Alexander, Lord Carisbrooke was gay and had only the 1 child with his wife..