Looking critically

Curryong · September 21, 2019, 10:21:42 AM

Yes, after the separation and during the divorce proceedings Frances, who was of course, independently wealthy, lived in London. In April 1969 she and Johnny's final divorce decree came into effect. She married Peter Shand Kydd a month later and shortly afterwards the couple bought a house on the West Sussex coast. The children of both their marriages visited them regularly during that time. In 1972 the Shand Kydds moved to a hill farm on the remote island of Seil off the west coast of Scotland. Disna was eleven. Regular weekly access visits ceased for the Spencer children from that time on, though they spent some of their school holidays there.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 10:43:39 AM

Quote from: Curryong on September 21, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
Yes, after the separation and during the divorce proceedings Frances, who was of course, independently wealthy, lived in London. In April 1969 she and Johnny's final divorce decree came into effect. She married Peter Shand Kydd a month later and shortly afterwards the couple bought a house on the West Sussex coast. The children of both their marriages visited them regularly during that time. In 1972 the Shand Kydds moved to a hill farm on the remote island of Seil off the west coast of Scotland. Disna was eleven. Regular weekly access visits ceased for the Spencer children from that time on, though they spent some of their school holidays there.

Of course Diana and the other kids visited htem regularly... She had the normal access for a non custodial parent.. and she later chose to move to Scotland where it wan't so easy for the kids to visit every week. However, as I understand it Diana saw her mother and was fond of her stepfather. If Frances later developed a "hands off" attitude, that was her own choice. I think as she grew older, from having wanted the "flat in London" and more of a social life, she became quieter and more content with a country life ironically.. but she chose the Austrailian and Scottish countryside. And then by which time her children were growing up, she seems to have been more "hands off" with them. I don't know about Sarah and Jane but she does not seem to have made any great effort to get Diana trained for the "society hostess" life that she probably envisaged for her. Diana was allowed to daydream at school, then she was allowed to drop out of the finishing school and I think training for cookery that she tried. Frnaces does not seem to have had any idea what to do with Diana.. She clearly wasn't going to have a career, but she needed some minimal educaton even to be a socialite and to secure a husband.. and Frances didn't seem to push or "manage" her daughter towards training for this kind of life... Then when DIana did gt married, Frances seems to have largely left her to her own devices even when there were at the very least adjustment problems in her marriag...

Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 11:01:16 AM

@Curryong What do you think about Frances and Diana? Was Fran more attentive to the older daughters.. perhaps she was less enthusastic by the time Diana was old enough to leave shcool and plan her life? OR was Diana who was rather shy just not interested in "being a deb" so she did not want a Season and just quietly took on a life of little jobs with no further training and resisted any plans her parents had to get hr to do anything particular? Or did she concentrate more on her son?
I don't know. It seems to me that they let the 16 or 17 year old Diana just float along. Even if she wasn't academic, I think F should have pushed her to stick out Finishing school or some knd of training...

sandy · September 21, 2019, 12:10:42 PM

She was in London when the children were growing up. Frances did have an idea about Diana she told her authorized biographer that when Diana was engaged she did not voice any concerns just said it was time for Diana to get married.

Diana's sisters were entirely different. Jane met Fellowes early on and she knew she wanted to marry him. It took a while for Sarah to get settled, she was rejected by the Duke of Westminster and developed the eating disorder anorexia. She dated Charles or a while but she said she did not love him. How her mother dealt with this has never been recorded or mentioned by Sarah.

dianab · September 21, 2019, 12:24:57 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 20, 2019, 11:32:53 PM
I think she should have had more access to her children no matter what the ruling. I think she was remote with Diana because she had not had the access to her that she should have had. She had a hands off attitude towards her in the run up to the wedding.

I did read that Ruth Fermoy did not want the children to lose the proximity to the royal family who were nearby at Sandringham. Diana had gotten invited to Andrew's and Edward's birthday parties. I do think Fermoy had ambitions for her granddaughters to marry into the royal family.

diana and her brother were sent to boarding schools. frances and johnnie shared weekends and holidays. it was choice of fraces to move to scotland and to complicate custody issues. later she also chose to move to australia

sandy · September 21, 2019, 12:28:52 PM

Diana also went to "finishing school" and then wanted to live in London and have a flat of her own (and flatmates). Frances' second husband did not turn out to be Prince CHarming exactly so Frances after the divorce lived in Scotland until the rest of her days, rather isolated.

dianab · September 21, 2019, 12:31:41 PM

It looked like karma getting back at her. Quite few times she put this man above of her kids.

Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 07:34:15 AM

She didn't move to Scotland, she moved to London

i read years ago the fact frances intended take the kids to scotland helped johnnie get their custody.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 12:53:07 PM

Quote from: dianab on September 21, 2019, 12:31:41 PM
It looked like karma getting back at her. Quite few times she put this man above of her kids.
i read years ago the fact frances intended take the kids to scotland helped johnnie get their custody.

no that is not correct. Frances moved to London with Charles and Diana.. She lost custody because she wwas a deserting unfaithful wife.. She did not go to Scotalnd until some time after her remarriage...

Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 01:09:20 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 12:10:42 PM
She was in London when the children were growing up. Frances did have an idea about Diana she told her authorized biographer that when Diana was engaged she did not voice any concerns just said it was time for Diana to get married.

Dian

If she thought it was time for Diana to get married, why not ensure that Diana had some basic training to be able to deal with a very public marriage.. with the press Looking over her all the time? She never seems to have pushed Diana to stick at anything...

Curryong · September 21, 2019, 01:17:22 PM

I agree with you in that I think that both Johnny and Frances were at a loss about what to do with Diana after failing her O Levels and having to leave school at 16. After the advent of Raine Frances and Diana became very close according to Bedell Smith.

Jane had graduated with distinction from West Heath School. I think that she was the brightest of the three Spencer girls. She had a deb party and a bit of a Season, studied art for six months in Italy and completed a secretarial course before getting a job at Vogue magazine. Sarah had been a deb, went to finishing schools in Switzerland and Austria, topped a course in speedwriting before joining Vogue as an assistant.

I think both parents (who weren't communicating directly with each other) had hoped that Diana would try something like her sisters. However no O Levels meant no prestigious jobs at smart magazines. Diana was sent off to at least learn French at a Swiss finishing school but she felt alone and homesick, few English girls, and pressed her parents to let her come back to England as she was miserable.

I just get the feeling that both Johnny and Frances took the route of least resistance with Diana in the hope that somehow she she would find her niche. (Perhaps a bit of guilt about the effect of the divorce as well.) So they let her come home after six weeks after she wrote every day describing how she hated it all. I suppose they could have insisted she stay but Diana could be very stubborn and would probably have decided she wasn't going to learn French or anything else there.

She wasn't interested in art and becoming a debutante was seen as unfashionable. A job was got for Diana as a nanny for friends in the country after she had helped with Jane's wedding. Diana said she wanted to live in London but both parents told her she couldn't until she was eighteen. Again, after three months Diana got her own way and went to live at her mother's house with two friends. Frances though, wasn't anywhere to be seen. She was in Scotland. Diana was an ultra cautious girl but I don't know that I'd want a seventeen year old daughter living in London away from me.

What I think is significant is that although Diana was certainly not indolent she knew that at eighteen there was a legacy from her mother's ancestors the American Wokes. So really there was no need to push yourself into a career.

To be fair, though she didn't come down to London to have a serious talk with her daughter as far as we know, (nor did Johnny) Frances did try various things. She prodded Diana into taking a three month cooking course. Diana did graduate from that but it didn't lead to anything very much. Then again, she signed on for a three year training course to teach ballet, at Frances's suggestion. However, the experience at the Betty Vacani Studio made her feel under pressure from parents though she loved the kids. So she left after three months.

I think that possibly Frances, who was in her own way very ambitious and determined and had been very good academically was just taken aback by the pattern of quitting by Diana whenever she felt overwhelmed. I mean, we can analyse it now as perhaps lasting damage from her parents' divorce, lack of self confidence in her own abilities, perhaps a bit of a learning disability at school. Whether Frances or Johnny joined the dots though, is another matter.

Frances doesn't seem to have pressed any more courses on her and Diana as we know embarked on the temporary jobs of helping out at parties, cleaning houses, providing party food. Perhaps her parents still felt she would find her feet but of course, in the background was that legacy she got at eighteen.

None of the Spencer girls had actually HAD to work as the rest of us have had to. And Disna herself found the job at the Young England nursery, and as a nanny to an American family. She was quite content there and at the flat with her friends, so perhaps her parents thought that was enough, and 'in two or three years she'll find someone nice and she will marry, like Jane and Sarah'. That's the only explanation as to why she wasn't pushed by her parents more determinedly, IMO.

As for Frances teaching her the social skills of being a good hostess, chatelaine of a country house etc, both Jane and Sarah (and Frances herself to a large extent) had got that from lessons at finishing school. Diana was sent to finishing school but didn't stay for one term.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 01:27:18 PM

but that is just it, Curryong. None of the girls had to work.. but the older 2 did well at school and even if they weren't into going to Uni, they got office jobs and dabbled in "Society"..
Diana tended to drop out of everything that she found difficult.. and her parents (JOhnny was alos at fault but Im just thinking here of Frances) didn't push or insist at all.. They could have put their foot down over something..like going back to school for a year and trying the O levels again.. or sticking out the Finishing school..adn they didn't. And Frances does not seem to have even tried to get Diana to learn "society stuff" of the kind that she would ideally need if she wanted to "make a good marriage" in the old fashioned way...
Was Frances just not able to stand out against her youngest daughter? Or was she tired out with having dealt with 2 older girls one of whom had a lot of problems.. (Sarah) and didn't have any energy left to deal with the youngest?

sandy · September 21, 2019, 02:51:24 PM

Diana did not "drop out" of her part time jobs even right before the engagement announcement. She told her employers she was leaving then. She got highly praised by the American couple whose child Diana looked after.

Diana was very young when she got engaged to Charles the options for going back to school no longer existed. She also learned on the job as a royal.

I think Ruth Fermoy was the one pushing for Great Marriages for her granddaughters.

DIana's parents should have sent her for one on one tutoring with a teacher. And DIana could get full attention of this tutor. Diana said she knew the material but when the exam paper was put in front of her she'd Freeze Up and not be able to do anything. This seems to be something that could have been addressed by sending Diana to a counselor/teacher who could help address that issue.

Curryong · September 21, 2019, 03:03:16 PM

'Society stuff' was taught at finishing school, ie ballroom dancing, languages, how to hold dinner parties, make smalltalk. If we go back to the 1930s, or even 1950s mothers imparted some of that sort of knowledge, but not in the 1970s. The Season had become unfashionable. Girls weren't presented any more at BP. And I don't think that making Diana do her O Levels again after she had failed them twice would have done any good.

We don't know enough about Frances and Diana's mother/daughter relations to say how Frances reacted to Diana's lack of ambition and tendency to fold when the pressure got too much. They don't seem to have had blazing rows about it. And Frances herself may have used alcohol and not eating sometimes as a way of coping with pressure.

Johnny, in an interview given shortly after his daughter's marriage just intimated vaguely that he had always thought she would do 'something with children. Something to do with Childcare.' Diana's parents knew she wasn't academically inclined, so maybe subconsciously they set the bar low. She was sweet natured however, sensible and they probably shrugged their shoulders and thought that she would probably marry early, anyway.

sandy · September 21, 2019, 03:11:51 PM

In the US, there are "Summer school" programs where those who did not do well would have more attention and a chance to retake the tests. Diana's problem of "freezing up" should have been addressed.

The "selling point" in the media for Lady DIana was that she enjoyed working with young children. So she would be a good mother to royal children.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 03:18:50 PM

Quote from: Curryong on September 21, 2019, 03:03:16 PM
'Society stuff' was taught at finishing school, ie ballroom dancing, languages, how to hold dinner parties, make smalltalk. If we go back to the 1930s, or even 1950s mothers imparted some of that sort of knowledge, but not in the 1970s. The Season had become unfashionable. Girls weren't presented any more at BP. And I don't think that making Diana do her O Levels again after she had failed them twice would have done any good.

We don't know enough about Frances and Diana's mother/daughter relations to say how Frances reacted to Diana's lack of ambition and tendency to fold when the pressure got too much. They don't seem to have had blazing rows about it. And Frances herself may have used alcohol and not eating sometimes as a way of coping with pressure.

John

But "society stuff" even if there were no Seasons really anymore, was still surely useful in finding a husband and managing married life in the upper classes.. How to host dinner parties, languages, a bit of "witty conversation".. running a big house and possibly being hostess to your husband's friends because he had some high powered job. So getting Diana to stay at Finishing school might have taught her something that would be useful to her in the future.
And since she was very young, I don't think it would have done her any harm to go back to school and repeat a year and maybe come up with some academic qualification..
Diana could still have taken up work with children, if she wanted to.. but she might have been say a year older and had SOME kind of qualification behind her. I get the feeling that Frances just didn't try very hard with her third daughter. Wwhether she did wit the older girls, or not, I don't know...

sandy · September 21, 2019, 03:26:59 PM

Diana was said to have had some duties involving the running of the Estate.

I did not read anywhere that Frances was around to help Sarah with her problems with anorexia.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 03:32:00 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 03:26:59 PM
Diana was said to have had some duties involving the running of the Estate.

I did not read anywhere that Frances was around to help Sarah with her problems with anorexia.

What estate??? Althorp? Harldy likely is it when she lived in London soon after she left school and Raine was in charge at the Big House. And I've no idea about Frances and Sarah, as I've said. But I think its pretty clear she did not exert herself all that much about Diana

sandy · September 21, 2019, 03:33:02 PM

she did spend time at ALthorp when she was growing up. She was not in boarding school all year. This is what I read and she did experience living in an Estate which certainly surpassed the homes her flatmates grew up in. she was said to have helped out at the Estate. this is what I read.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 03:37:08 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 03:33:02 PM
she did spend time at ALthorp when she was growing up. She was not in boarding school all year. This is what I read and she did experience living in an Estate which certainly surpassed the homes her flatmates grew up in. she was said to have helped out at the Estate. this is what I read.

But what did she do exactly? I cant' see Diana in her wellies managing the pig farm like Lady Mary!! and I don't think she learned "running a big house".. Besides with Raine in charge, she and the other girls did not like Althorp and I doubt if Raine wanted Diana helping her to plan menus..

sandy · September 21, 2019, 03:42:21 PM

This is what I read.

oak_and_cedar · September 21, 2019, 04:22:09 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 02:51:24 PM

DIana's parents should have sent her for one on one tutoring with a teacher. And DIana could get full attention of this tutor. Diana said she knew the material but when the exam paper was put in front of her she'd Freeze Up and not be able to do anything. This seems to be something that could have been addressed by sending Diana to a counselor/teacher who could help address that issue.

Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.

Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 04:23:42 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 06:33:31 PM
well when she walked out she wanted a divorce, didn't she? He was not a smart guy and I don't think he realised that she was so bored and fed up with him and that she had fallen so madly in love with Peter SK... when it did hit him and he understood she was gone, I think he was indeed angry.. and in due course he fell for Raine

I think earl Spencer was an intelligent man. He must have realized his mistakes if he was willing to overlook her affair.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 04:24:00 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 04:22:09 PM
Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.

She was at a good school in the sense that it was a private school, not somewhere with large numbers of pupils.. and her sisters went there too. They each got a decent number fo O levels or A levels

Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 04:29:44 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 04:22:09 PM
Diana's choices in charities and her engagement in them shows someone intelligent, curious and a good learner. I think she would have been greatly helped had she gotten help from her school IMO.

Double post auto-merged: September 21, 2019, 04:23:42 PM

I think earl Spencer was an intelligent man. He must have realized his mistakes if he was willing to overlook her affair.

Diana's father?? HE was NOT an intelligent man. A nice man, kind and a good squire, but very far from smart... He didn't realise his mistakes other than to realise that Frances had fallen out of love with him...and evnetaully he moved on

oak_and_cedar · September 21, 2019, 08:21:30 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 04:24:00 PM
She was at a good school in the sense that it was a private school, not somewhere with large numbers of pupils.. and her sisters went there too. They each got a decent number fo O levels or A levels

Diana's father?? HE was NOT an intelligent man. A nice man, kind and a good squire, but very far from smart... He didn't realise his mistakes other than to realise that Frances had fallen out of love with him...and evnetaully he moved on

Those conditions does not negate her being of good intelligence, IMO. Jane and Sarah getting better grades points to them not having the "issues" Diana had, and for which she could have gotten help.

He was intelligent, and good at presenting a good "facade" IMO. He was no Einstein but was still smart, in my opinion.

Him willing to overlook her infidelity and then contesting her custody claims shows that he was not "over" her, to me anyways.

amabel · September 21, 2019, 08:40:01 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 08:21:30 PM
Those conditions does not negate her being of good intelligence, IMO. Jane and Sarah getting better grades points to them not having the "issues" Diana had, and for which she could have gotten help.

He was intelligent, and good at presenting a good "facade" IMO. He was no Einstein but was still smart, in my opinion.

Him willing to overlook her infidelity and then contesting her custody claims shows that he was not "over" her, to me anyways.

I don't think anyone would agree about Johnny Spencer. He was generally held to be a kind and decent man.. mostly but far from clever. I dotn quite see what you mean by the last sentence. Of course he wasn't "over her" at the time of the divorce. It took him some time to realise that she seriously wanted out of the marriage and he was upset and angry.. so he made himself difficult - trying hard to get custody of the children and succeeding, though he msut have known it would hurt his wife. He was depressed for some time but did get over her and was I think happy with Raine in his later years...

sandy · September 21, 2019, 10:49:57 PM

I think Frances resented being sent to doctors to see why she could not produce the boy. I think she resented being seen as a "baby producer" and not a wife. She also was upset at not being allowed to see Baby John before he died.I think all the resentments just built up.

oak_and_cedar · September 22, 2019, 02:53:35 AM

Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 08:40:01 PM
I don't think anyone would agree about Johnny Spencer. He was generally held to be a kind and decent man.. mostly but far from clever. I dotn quite see what you mean by the last sentence. Of course he wasn't "over her" at the time of the divorce. It took him some time to realise that she seriously wanted out of the marriage and he was upset and angry.. so he made himself difficult - trying hard to get custody of the children and succeeding, though he msut have known it would hurt his wife. He was depressed for some time but did get over her and was I think happy with Raine in his later years...

I don't think he was over Frances by the time of the divorce and for some time after IMO.

I'm not saying that he was this misunderstood genius or anything but I don't think that he was stupid. He was probably a kind and decent man as you say, but I also think he was smart and knew how to keep up a facade. IMO.

He knew how to hit Frances where it hurts, i.e. with the custody battle. No amiable idiot would've thought of that. So I think he was clever with a few tricks up his sleeve. But this is just my take on it.

amabel · September 22, 2019, 08:51:26 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 22, 2019, 02:53:35 AM
I don't think he was over Frances by the time of the divorce and for some time after IMO.

I'm not saying that he was this misunderstood genius or anything but I don't think that he was stupid. He was probably a kind and decent man as you say, but I also think he was smart and knew how to keep up a facade. IMO.

He knew how to hit Frances where it hurts, i.e. with the custody battle. No amiable idiot would've thought of that. So I think he was clever with a few tricks up his sleeve. But this is just my take on it.

well if he was only "clever" in the sense of "knowing how to hurt her".. I don't think much of it... It is harldy intelligence to lash out at someone. I don't know of anyone ever sayng that he was more than a not very smart but basically good hearted man, who liked the country life and was a good farmer.. and had enough sense to know how to manage his estate well..
Of course he was not over her by the time of the divorce Why would he be? Very few people are.
Frances's mother Lady Fermoy is generally held to have pushed him a bit towards looking for custody, because she wanted her grandchildren to remain at Althrop? so she was probably the one who drove him and stiffened his resolve to keep his children. But realy it was hardly that unusual for a man whose wife had left him, to want to retain custody of his children. Deserting and unfaithful wives had usually lost custody of their children and though things were a little more liberal by the 1960s, it had not changed all that much. Frances had been named as a deserting and unfaithful wife..so it didn't need much for Johnny to be able to keep them.

As Curryong has pointed out, it wasn't that easy to get a divorce then.. though the grouds were a bit wider than they had been earlier in the century. Some husbands cooperated with their wives by "committing adultery" so as to give the wife a way out.. but Johnny was hurt and angry and had not been unfaithful.. and he wasn't drunk or a realy bad husband. So Frances ended up being named as a wife who had been unfaithful and walked out...