Looking critically

LouisFerdinand · September 06, 2019, 12:42:52 AM

Did Princess Diana think that her in-laws and their friends and staff were sometimes looking at her critically?

:o :no: :( :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2:

Curryong · September 06, 2019, 01:08:36 AM

Yes, I would say that was obvious, especially as the marriage to Charles neared its end. Positions became hardened on both sides as the years went on and this led to great difficulties. I think Diana would have said that she received negativity and little help from Royal insiders or her husband's relatives during her marriage. A bit unfair perhaps, but that's how she felt.

And I have read that offices between Charles, his siblings and other royals were not conducive to cooperation with each other anyway, even before Diana had arrived on the scene, with jealousies between the various royals about good publicity being showered on one and not others, and them all looking at each other's PR image like hawks, as adults.

Plus, friends of Charles's like Nicholas Soames coming out and casting aspersions on Diana's mental health, was neither friendly nor helpful. Soames was not a psychiatrist anyway.

Double post auto-merged: September 06, 2019, 01:32:06 AM

* A courtier in the 1980s and 1990s working in BP described a place where family members communicated by notes delivered by footmen, where meetings between royals were arranged by the same means, jealousy was rife, and 'they all watched each other like hawks'. Younger members like Andrew would go through the Queen's PS if he wished to see his mother during the day in the 1970s. Family friendly? Not very, and not an atmosphere in which someone like Diana, used to a much more informal world, would thrive.

LouisFerdinand · September 07, 2019, 12:42:41 AM

Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?

Curryong · September 07, 2019, 01:14:21 AM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 07, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?

To her face you mean? No, I don't think so. The Queen is known to 'ostrich' and retreat from conflict of any time. At the beginning she was delighted that Charles was marrying such a prize. However, on the honeymoon at Balmoral I think she found out that she hadnt realised how complex Diana was and was perplexed and puzzled by her.

Later on she became terribly worried about the state of the marriage (not that she did anything about it like telling Charles to stop seeing Mrs PB and try to put his union with Diana on a closer footing) and I'm sure the Queen had discussions with Philip and possibly Margaret. As the marriage progressed towards its end I think she became irritated with Diana and possibly thought she was beyond any help and guidance. At the same time she appeared to be puzzled that Diana didn't want to spend Xmas with the Windsors after the divorce. Somewhat obtuse if you ask me!

However, as she has never spoken about those times and never will, and Diana never reported any ticking off I think we can say that there weren't any. However, silent disapproval is IMO just as bad. And certainly her view of Diana hardened after the Morton book and veered around to Charles after Panrama and during the divorce negotiations.

amabel · September 07, 2019, 09:36:41 AM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 07, 2019, 12:42:41 AM
Was her mother-in-law Queen Elizabeth II critical of Princess Diana?

Certainly

LouisFerdinand · September 08, 2019, 12:25:21 AM

Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?

Curryong · September 08, 2019, 12:42:22 AM

LF, at what stage of the marriage to Charles? You surely know, as its been discussed often enough on this forum, that after the Morton Book and Panorama that the RF slowly but surely closed ranks against Diana. Philip, like the Queen, expressed his delight at the engagement of Charles and Diana. Then came puzzlement at Diana's unhappiness at Balmoral during the honeymoon and some episodes such as when Philip apparently ticked her off for debuting a new hairstyle at a State Opening of Parliament.

I don't think either the Queen or Philip were particularly pleased by Diana's huge popularity which not only dwarfed Charles's but threatened the Queen's too, at least as far as the media was concerned, though I don't think they directly criticised Diana for the phenomenon. They, particularly Philip, did attempt to act as marriage counsellors in the last year or two of Charles and Diana's marriage and we know Philip wrote letters of advice to her in which he did criticise aspects of her behaviour. However he also famously told her 'I don't know how anyone could prefer Camilla to you', referring to her beauty.

So Philip was critical, very critical at times of his daughter in law and told her so, but he did try to help her too.

amabel · September 08, 2019, 08:20:55 AM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 08, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?

Yes

oak_and_cedar · September 08, 2019, 08:37:51 PM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 06, 2019, 12:42:52 AM
Did Princess Diana think that her in-laws and their friends and staff were sometimes looking at her critically?

:o :no: :( :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2: :annoyed2:

I think so. I think that to some, having a mistress was quite ordinary, and perhaps, why all the fuss?

Double post auto-merged: September 08, 2019, 08:39:56 PM

Quote from: LouisFerdinand on September 08, 2019, 12:25:21 AM
Was her father-in-law Prince Philip critical of Princess Diana?

I think he disagreed with her on some things, and she with him most likely. However, him writing to her that he could not imagine PC choosing C over her kind of shows that he held her in esteem. IMO.

sandy · September 08, 2019, 11:40:46 PM

Quote from: Curryong on September 07, 2019, 01:14:21 AM
To her face you mean? No, I don't think so. The Queen is known to 'ostrich' and retreat from conflict of any time. At the beginning she was delighted that Charles was marrying such a prize. However, on the honeymoon at Balmoral I think she found out that she hadnt realised how complex Diana was and was perplexed and puzzled by her.

Later on she became terribly worried about the state of the marriage (not that she did anything about it like telling Charles to stop seeing Mrs PB and try to put his union with Diana on a closer footing) and I'm sure the Queen had discussions with Philip and possibly Margaret. As the marriage progressed towards its end I think she became irritated with Diana and possibly thought she was beyond any help and guidance. At the same time she appeared to be puzzled that Diana didn't want to spend Xmas with the Windsors after the divorce. Somewhat obtuse if you ask me!

However, as she has never spoken about those times and never will, and Diana never reported any ticking off I think we can say that there weren't any. However, silent disapproval is IMO just as bad. And certainly her view of Diana hardened after the Morton book and veered around to Charles after Panrama and during the divorce negotiations.

At the time of the Morton book, it was not known for sure if Diana cooperated. After she died, MOrton confirmed it. And certainly Margaret and the QUeen knew about Camilla the Whole Time. Margaret was quoted as saying that she hoped Camilla would let Charles go. I found it heartless that Diana was not warned ahead of time about the Real Status of Mrs Parker Bowles. SHe could have backed out then.

THe QUeen knew about Camilla in 1979-80 and that Charles renewed his physical relationship with Camilla. Charles took Camilla as his "escort" to ZImbabwe in 1980 which caused comment and embarrassment among the courtiers. Yet the Queen did nothing. ANd she also was warned about the relationship by a courtier.

amabel · September 09, 2019, 06:51:59 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 08, 2019, 08:37:51 PM
I think so. I think that to some, having a mistress was quite ordinary, and perhaps, why all the fuss?

Double post auto-merged: September 08, 2019, 08:39:56 PM

I think he disagreed with her on some things, and she with him most likely. However, him writing to her that he could not imagine PC choosing C over her kind of shows that he held her in esteem. IMO.

Not really. I think it was just the normal reaction that Diana was a beauty and Camilla was not. he also stated to Diana that perhaps she should consider that her own behaviour had been what cuased Charles to leave her for Camilla

sandy · September 09, 2019, 12:14:26 PM

When did Charles "leave" Camilla? He was talking to her over the phone on his honeymoon with Diana and they met on the hunts. Charles even admitted to DImbleby that he preferred Camilla when he married DIana. And who was to blame for Charles getting involved with APB's wife before Diana came on the scene. It was Charles' behavior that was the problem IMO. He was continuing to see and contact Camilla. I think it shows Charles mindset if he has his friends blame DIana for his involvement with Camilla happened before he courted DIana.

oak_and_cedar · September 09, 2019, 02:10:42 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 06:51:59 AM
Not really. I think it was just the normal reaction that Diana was a beauty and Camilla was not. he also stated to Diana that perhaps she should consider that her own behaviour had been what cuased Charles to leave her for Camilla

I personally don't think so. I think both PP and HM valued Diana and appreciated her as a future Queen consort material. They would never have approved of a marriage if they thought otherwise. This is why him and HM made an effort to try to speak to both her and PC during the breakdown of the marriage. So I think that he appreciated Diana, and they do have some similarities, her and Philip. IMO.

amabel · September 09, 2019, 02:13:30 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 02:10:42 PM
I personally don't think so. I think both PP and HM valued Diana and appreciated her as a future Queen consort material. They would never have approved of a marriage if they thought otherwise. This is why him and HM made an effort to try to speak to both her and PC during the breakdown of the marriage. So I think that he appreciated Diana, and they do have some similarities, her and Philip. IMO.

Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.

oak_and_cedar · September 09, 2019, 02:46:44 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.

I think that she was always considered suitable consort material. She was put in a difficult situation and tried to find her way out so to speak. I don't think that she recieved alot of help though.

I think that both PP and HM understood the predicament that she was in and tried in someways to alleviate it. But when your husband refuses to let go of a mistress, and the mistress refuses to let go of him. Well there's only so much that can be done. Diana stood up for herself and defended herself. IMO.

amabel · September 09, 2019, 02:52:08 PM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 02:46:44 PM
I think that she was always considered suitable consort material. She was put in a difficult situation and tried to find her way out so to speak. I don't think that she recieved alot of help though.

I think that both PP and HM understood the predicament that she was in and tried in someways to alleviate it. But when your husband refuses to let go of a mistress, and the mistress refuses to let go of him. Well there's only so much that can be done. Diana stood up for herself and defended herself. IMO.

yes of course she was considered sutitable When they married.. otherwise the Queen would not have OK'ed the marriage. Fairly soon after the marriage however I think they were uneasy.. when Diana became bulimic and did not seem to fit in or enjoy Royal private life...
And when they realised she was leaking stories to the press and had authorised the Morton book, they were not on her side at all any more..
The marriage ended in divorce because the queen realised that she could not ensure that Diana did not leak stories, or do things like the Panorama Interview and the only solution was to order her to end the marriage legally and there was probably a gagging order In the divorce settlement...

sandy · September 09, 2019, 04:21:44 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:13:30 PM
Obviously they thought of her as sutiable consort material when the marriage was first proposed. Their opinions changed vastly as time progressed. By the later stages, I think that while they hoped for a time that the marriage could be salvaged in a formal sense.. they realised, that the only solution was a divorce.

They must have been very oblivious then. THe Queen knew about Charles and his association with Camilla and if they "changed their opinions" it was that DIana did not turn a blind eye to Camilla and who can blame her.

oak_and_cedar · September 09, 2019, 07:32:45 PM

Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 02:52:08 PM
yes of course she was considered sutitable When they married.. otherwise the Queen would not have OK'ed the marriage. Fairly soon after the marriage however I think they were uneasy.. when Diana became bulimic and did not seem to fit in or enjoy Royal private life...
And when they realised she was leaking stories to the press and had authorised the Morton book, they were not on her side at all any more..
The marriage ended in divorce because the queen realised that she could not ensure that Diana did not leak stories, or do things like the Panorama Interview and the only solution was to order her to end the marriage legally and there was probably a gagging order In the divorce settlement...

We don't know that she didn't fit or enjoy family life. She should've gotten help for her bulimia. Instead it was her friend who made her get the help. Baffling.

I think HM ordered the divorce because she became wary and nervous about the back and forth. Diana's actions did not exist in a vacuum. She spoke out in order to defend herself. Considering there's still to this day a vested interest in portraying her in a certain light she did good in speaking out, IMO. Now her side will always be there for people who want to know.

sandy · September 09, 2019, 10:05:19 PM

She was given the wrong help when she was pregnant with William. Charles had doctors that just fed her valium And then she could not take the pills because of her pregnancy. It was baffling that her sister Sarah did not refer DIana to Dr. Lipsedge in the first place.

amabel · September 10, 2019, 06:35:30 AM

Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 09, 2019, 07:32:45 PM
We don't know that she didn't fit or enjoy family life. She should've gotten help for her bulimia. Instead it was her friend who made her get the help. Baffling.

we do know. She wasn't happy at Balmoral.. she told Morton she didn't feel comfortable there. the queen was irked that she seemed gloomy and depressed and not willing to be soicalbe. As for her bulimia, she was takne to doctors, but she did not speak of her bulimia and so they couldn't treat it. It was not for some years that friends pressured her by threatening to go public on her illness and that finally pushed her into seekng therapy. You could hardly expect the RF to say "If you don't see a doctor and talk to him I'll go to the press"

Double post auto-merged: September 10, 2019, 06:56:36 AM

Quote from: sandy on September 09, 2019, 04:21:44 PM
They must have been very oblivious then. THe Queen knew about Charles and his association with Camilla and if they "changed their opinions" it was that DIana did not turn a blind eye to Camilla and who can blame her.

As you know they "changed their opinions" in the early days when they saw that Diana was a lot different after her marriage to what she had been like before. She now seemed to dislike much of the rural life and socialising that she had seemed to enjoy while dating Charles... As time progressed they became increasingly uneasy with Diana because they suspected her of leaking stories to the press and of doing te Morton book...So by the later years of the marriage while the queen had still hoped to keep the 2 of htem in some form of marital relationship, she realised finally that she could not do so and that She could not trust Diana not to speak to the press or journalists..and so she finally ordered a divorce...

sandy · September 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM

Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.

Charles people leaked stories to the press and Diana wanted her side out there. There were stories from people like Nicholas Soames, Charles good friends.

The Queen would have been well advised not to trust her son who skewered her as a bad parent via Dimbleby book.

Charles sent doctors with the wrong sort of treatment for Diana, Diana may have been uncomfortable being fed large quantities of valium.

amabel · September 10, 2019, 01:05:06 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 12:39:56 PM
Diana was sick during the first time she experienced Balmoral as a married woman. She had bad morning sickness combined with Bulimia. As I said before, she went to Balmoral year after year before the separation. That one year is not an indicator of the rest of the times she spent there. She dutifully attended Charles polo matches even when she was heavily pregnant with William.

Charles people leaked stories to the press and Diana wanted her side out there. There were stories from people like Nicholas Soames, Charles good friends.

The Queen would have been well advised not to trust her son who skewered her as a bad parent via Dimbleby book.

Charles sent doctors with the wrong sort of treatment for Diana, Diana may have been uncomfortable being fed large quantities of valium.

She wasn't "fed large quantities of Valium". She was prescribed Valium for anxiety.. which was standard treatment. Charles does not approve of taking a lot of drugs, so it was harldy his decision.. it was that of the doctor to suggest taking it. And Diana idd not talk to the Doctors about her bulimia so they could not treat it..and in any case she did not take the Valium for long because she was pregnant.
Besides how would valium make her "uncomfortable"? It is a tranquillisers

sandy · September 10, 2019, 01:20:48 PM

This is in her biographies, she was given quantities of valium. Valium is not effective and the doctor did not get to the root of the issue like Dr. Lipsedge did later on. Why Lipsedge was not sent to her then is a mystery.

Charles went along with the valium and he could have tried to find another doctor. He even sent Van Der Post who proved ineffectual.

Diana went off the valium when she found out she was pregnant.

Valium makes people tired and can be addictive.

amabel · September 10, 2019, 01:28:17 PM

Quote from: sandy on September 10, 2019, 01:20:48 PM
This is in her biographies, she was given quantities of valium. Valium is not effective and the doctor did not get to the root of the issue like Dr. Lipsedge did later on. Why Lipsedge was not sent to her then is a mystery.

Charles went along with the valium and he could have tried to find another doctor. He even sent Van Der Post who proved ineffectual.

Diana went off the valium when she found out she was pregnant.

Valium makes people tired and can be addictive.

Since Diana didn't take it for long..and would not have been kept on it for long without reviewing how it was working for her, I don't really think she was in danger of becoming addicted.
And Valium IS helpful to many people.. If Diana had spoken to her doctor about her illness, she could have been referred to an eating specialist. She didn't..and so it was some years before she found a doctor who could treat her..

sandy · September 10, 2019, 01:59:47 PM

Valium was found not to be the best treatment. It was more like a bandage and did not get to the root of the problem.

How is it known if she would or would not have become dependent on them?

Charles brought in the doctors. Her sister knew Lipsedge was effective, so why did her sister keep her mouth shut.