Diana and religion

[oak_and_cedar]

I just commented in one PC thread about this. We've heard about PC interests different religions etc.
Does anyone know if PD was religious or interested in religion? Did she make any statements or comments during her life about what she believed in?

[TLLK]

I'm not as knowledgeable about Diana as some of our other members, but I've read that she and her Spencer family  were not particularly religious. However I understand that she did privately consider converting to Islam while dating Hasnat Khan.

[amabel]

I'm not as knowledgeable about Diana as some of our other members, but I've read that she and her Spencer family  were not particularly religious. However I understand that she did privately consider converting to Islam while dating Hasnat Khan.

She was interested in Catholicism as well, and there were even rumours going round in the 90s that she might convetrt to Catholicism, like her mother. 
She got interested in Islam because of Hasnat Khan, but its hard to say what she would have done since the relationship was always on and off.

[oak_and_cedar]

I don't think, in that case, that there were 'serious' attempts to convert by her. Perhaps she was ok with her 'given' religion.

[amabel]

what are serious attempts to convert?  She certainly read up a bit on Islam... but I think it was mostly out of a romantic admiration for the religion and culture because she was in love with Hasnat Khan.  She did go to Catholic churches at times and there were rumours that she was considering conversion once she got out of the RF.

[oak_and_cedar]

I mean just that. That she probably didn't seriously consider to convert. I don't believe she had a romantic view of Islam and it's cultures. I think that she was a curious lady and appreciative of certain aspects. I remember reading an article where one of her lawyers (I think it was) gave an interview or an extract from his book. Don't remember. Anyways, in it he said that he and Diana had discussions about judaism(he was jewish). I believe they discussed amongst other things womens role in that religion and how they were appreciated. She was a curious person that researched things that interested her, I believe, amongst other things was religion. Doesn't mean she considered seriously converting. In my opinion of course.

[amabel]

I think she was indeed interested in religion - and she did take an interest in other faiths having been brought up C of E. However I think she got interested in Islam because of Khan.. she may have felt that her chances of convincing him that their relationship had a future were better if she knew more about his faith and culture. 

[oak_and_cedar]

In my opinion she wouldn't have converted. People usually get 'provoked' by others into reading things. She left him anyway.

[amabel]

She only left him because she was beginning to give up hope that they would marry.. and if there had been a chance of marriage, she might have converted....Besides I think tehre were things about Islam that she admired...

[oak_and_cedar]

Women don't have to convert to Islam. Their religion is not a problem because children get their fathers religion in Islam. Khan is aware of this I am certain. If she wanted to get married and felt that there won't be marriage, I don't see why she shouldn't end it and move on. In his Culture, the honorable thing to do is to marry a woman. Not to involve her in a 'relationship'. I believe he's also aware of this. Good for Diana for moving on.

What did she admire about Islam by the way? Did she say?

[amabel]

Yes she did end it and move on, when she met Dodi.  But they had had rows and splits before, because always while they loved each other, he didn't want to marry outside his culture, and religion and he didn't want to be Diana's "Mr Diana" husband.. or live in S Africa.  He didn't want the press attention that went with Diana's life and I think he knew that realistically she would not be able to settle as the wife of a middle class doctor.

[oak_and_cedar]

Well the relational dynamic is between them. I not that informed on the details. I have my personal opinions about peoples actions when they know they can't marry etc. However their relationship was between them as i've said.

Anyways I wonder what other religions she read up on. Did she read up on her own, so to speak? what do you Think?

[royalanthropologist]

Did Diana really understand the implications of being married to a Muslim man or even the religion itself? Did she really understand the implications of polygamy and the divorce laws in that religion? Moving to Pakistan would make things even starker for her because they follow shariah law.  To me this seemed like another pipe dream of macho Muslim men (or ones she imagined were macho) who could re-rescue her from her present predicaments. It is not surprising that it did not work out with Khan. Even the Dodi fling was bound to peter out.

[oak_and_cedar]

Did Diana really understand the implications of being married to a Muslim man or even the religion itself? Did she really understand the implications of polygamy and the divorce laws in that religion? Moving to Pakistan would make things even starker for her because they follow shariah law.  To me this seemed like another pipe dream of macho Muslim men (or ones she imagined were macho) who could re-rescue her from her present predicaments. It is not surprising that it did not work out with Khan. Even the Dodi fling was bound to peter out.

Maybe she thought Khan and Fayed were different and not 'steeped' in that Culture? Just that they got the 'better' aspects and not the culturally different ones? Also none of them were macho, in my opinion. How much did she know about the religion and Culture anyway? Did someone give her a PC version?

I also wanted to add, most men from that background has a certain 'view' about western women that she would not find flattering, if she found out in my opinion.

[amabel]

Maybe she thought Khan and Fayed were different and not 'steeped' in that Culture? Just that they got the 'better' aspects and not the culturally different ones? Also none of them were macho, in my opinion. How much did she know about the religion and Culture anyway? Did someone give her a PC version?

I also wanted to add, most men from that background has a certain 'view' about western women that she would not find flattering, if she found out in my opinion.

Since she was closely involved with Khan for about 2 years I daresay she got to know him fairly well.. and what he was like.  As for how much she knew about Islam, I don't know.  She certainly read up about it, a bit but how deeply, I am not sure.
I dotn know if she saw herself and Khan living in Pakistan, rather somewhere sunny and not too far from the UK like S Africa.. where she could still fly home to vist the boys./
I don't think that Dodi was a serious love, and they were only dating for a month or so..
Double post auto-merged: March 07, 2019, 09:46:00 PM

Well the relational dynamic is between them. I not that informed on the details. I have my personal opinions about peoples actions when they know they can't marry etc. However their relationship was between them as i've said.

Anyways I wonder what other religions she read up on. Did she read up on her own, so to speak? what do you Think?

I am not sure Diana gave up easily about their not marrying.  She was very determined and tried very hard.  But maybe Kahn was right that it woudlnt' work.. He would have hated giving up his London doctoring.. or ending up as Diana's husband, traveling with her and being pestered by the media. And would Diana have ever been able to  settled down to life as  a doctors wife.... She had grown used to something very different.
I don't know of her studying any religion other than Islam.. and I think when she got interested in some other faith it was largely due to the influence of friends or loved ones.  She does seem to have gone to Catholic churches, to pray and that might have been due to her mother or the Duchess of Kent.. 
Islam was due to Khan.  if she took some interest in Judaism it was probably out of some friend getting her interested.
But I don't know how deeply she read on these subjects

[Curryong]

I just think that abstract thought, in the sense of interfaith study, just wasn't Diana's cup of tea. She was far from unintelligent but I just can't see her getting deep into the academic concepts of any of the mainstream religions, myself.

I see Diana as very much a people person, and, as amabel has said, she would have looked at Islam through the prism of various relationships she took up. For instance, her friendship with Jemima Goldsmith who married Imran Khan (known in England as a cricketer and later as a politician) and through the love she had for Hasnet, of course.

Diana and Jemima became very close at one stage, and at times I think that Diana did see herself living as Jemima did (but without the political element), as a sort of Westernised Islamic wife, floating around in very becoming and colourful outfits and scarves that didn't quite cover the golden locks, and helping Hasnet at times in disadvantaged surroundings, if not in Pakistan then elsewhere in the Third World.

What I've written makes Diana sound something of an airhead, and I don't mean for it to be so. However, when she was in love it was everything and I do believe she tended to build castles in the air about it. She did, I think, have a real yen for what used to be called 'exotic India' the subcontinent, and indeed, east of Suez, and I don't think it's any coincidence that the last two relationships that we know about were with a Pakistani and an Egyptian.

However, just as she didn't seem to really delve into what the BRF were really like as a family before she married Charles, I don't think that she had thoroughly  thought through about what conversion to Islam (if it had gone ahead) would have really meant as a wife mixing with her husband's co-religionists in London or SA, or even if Khan had decided to use his operating skills in Pakistan later for a couple of years. That Fayids would have been more cooperative, but as I've said before, I don't think the Dodi thing would have ended in marriage.

I've said that I feel that Diana was a bit lost at the time of the divorce and afterwards. Maybe the prayer in RC churches, and a look at Judaism was part of that ongoing search for an anchor and some inner peace.

[oak_and_cedar]

To me this seemed like another pipe dream of macho Muslim men (or ones she imagined were macho) who could re-rescue her from her present predicaments. It is not surprising that it did not work out with Khan. Even the Dodi fling was bound to peter out.

Why do you say that, Royal?

I also forgot to ask, do you mean to say she was drawn to the 'macho' aspect of the Culture?
Double post auto-merged: March 08, 2019, 04:28:02 AM

I just think that abstract thought, in the sense of interfaith study, just wasn't Diana's cup of tea. She was far from unintelligent but I just can't see her getting deep into the academic concepts of any of the mainstream religions, myself.

I see Diana as very much a people person, and, as amabel has said, she would have looked at Islam through the prism of various relationships she took up. For instance, her friendship with Jemima Goldsmith who married Imran Khan (known in England as a cricketer and later as a politician) and through the love she had for Hasnet, of course.

Diana and Jemima became very close at one stage, and at times I think that Diana did see herself living as Jemima did (but without the political element), as a sort of Westernised Islamic wife, floating around in very becoming and colourful outfits and scarves that didn't quite cover the golden locks, and helping Hasnet at times in disadvantaged surroundings, if not in Pakistan then elsewhere in the Third World.

What I've written makes Diana sound something of an airhead, and I don't mean for it to be so. However, when she was in love it was everything and I do believe she tended to build castles in the air about it. She did, I think, have a real yen for what used to be called 'exotic India' the subcontinent, and indeed, east of Suez, and I don't think it's any coincidence that the last two relationships that we know about were with a Pakistani and an Egyptian.

However, just as she didn't seem to really delve into what the BRF were really like as a family before she married Charles, I don't think that she had thoroughly  thought through about what conversion to Islam (if it had gone ahead) would have really meant as a wife mixing with her husband's co-religionists in London or SA, or even if Khan had decided to use his operating skills in Pakistan later for a couple of years. That Fayids would have been more cooperative, but as I've said before, I don't think the Dodi thing would have ended in marriage.

I've said that I feel that Diana was a bit lost at the time of the divorce and afterwards. Maybe the prayer in RC churches, and a look at Judaism was part of that ongoing search for an anchor and some inner peace.

In your opinion, had she lived, would she still carry on down that 'path' that is with islamic Culture and men?

[royalanthropologist]

Why do you say that, Royal?

Because even in her 30s Diana was still dreaming with unrealistic expectations of a man to rescue her. She did not really know Khan/Dodi or their personalities or even their cultural backgrounds. It was always some idealistic notion of "macho Muslim men" to save the lonely princess. Relations that are based on unrealistic dreams tend not to work out well.

[oak_and_cedar]

Because even in her 30s Diana was still dreaming with unrealistic expectations of a man to rescue her. She did not really know Khan/Dodi or their personalities or even their cultural backgrounds. It was always some idealistic notion of "macho Muslim men" to save the lonely princess. Relations that are based on unrealistic dreams tend not to work out well.

I don't know if she was unrealistic. She probably like most people wanted to be in a committed loving relationship. Do we know that she had this notion of macho muslim men? Do you think she ever understood that there was a non 'glittery' reality of cultures like that?
Anyway I thought she was with this Khan guy for two years and loved him so she must've known him and loved inspite or because of? I thought she ended things?

[royalanthropologist]

Diana's friends speak of someone that was essentially a dreamer. Tina Brown and Simone describes how she was for example in total denial about the reality that Charles had gone for gone, hoping and anticipating some king of reunion. Then this idea that somehow the BRF would feel so sad about her suffering after Morton and Bashir that they would immediately apologize, mend their ways and bring her back to the fold (boy did she misread their reactions??? :hehe:)

With Mr. Wonderful she thought that a man who liked his private life and valued his profession could ever consider becoming a public accessory to the most photographed woman in the world. Off she went to Pakistan, trying to learn more about the culture apparently...bearing in mind that women are supposed to have their heads chopped off for adultery in some Islamic states. Then that open heart surgery visit with her looking glamorous and watching on as Khan worked. There was not a chance Khan was going to marry her...anyone could have told her that if she asked.

The whole Dodi thing was just a bad idea from the start to the end (including the press invitations to photograph their love). Diana had come from a royal system where she complained of being undervalued, ignored and treated like a brood mare. Was she going to truck her luck with Muslims? :teehee: Diana was not realistic in her expectations.

[Curryong]

This is what my email friend, who has a great knowledge of Diana in all her aspects has to say about Diana and Religion. (He said 'Great subject!' btw!

The Islamic way of life and culture was around her life before Khan, with Oliver's expertise in Islamic art, and Charles's interest in it. As I recall, she was considering converting for him if marriage would have taken place, now how much that was due to dilligent study and how much was her impulsive urge to immerse herself in another's world both feet first before having a proper look around, is ultimately subjective and up for debate. She tried very hard and considering her fame & the difficulty for her to travel unobserved, it was a big thing for her to go to Pakistan and visit the family and try to get in their good graces.

She liked the macho style of the men and the family life, but as to how much she studied for example how she would have been sublimated to her husband and the various rules if she Khan had been ultra orthodox vs mostly non observant. Also had she pushed for certain social causes and changes how would that have played out if she was under the governance, even informally of the various muftis, imams, etc.

She was a product of those times as we all were, mostly ignorant of the trends of religion, demographics, etc. or rather we thought post cold war and early internet, we had transcended them. I think had the family approved & Khan's ego structure was different, they'd have lived as Muslims (provided HM allowed it as her connection to the boys could have made that complicated).

As far as RC, I think Mother Teresa was the main influencer on her for her interest in that, as her and Frances were on rocky terms then, but it may have played some part. She seemed aside from the publicity to gain a lot of comfort from religion in her final few years, I like to think she was maybe ready to have more acceptance for herself than in earlier years, and aside from MT's checkered past and the publicity factor, she got a lot out of it.

I'd have to google her study of Judiasm more, of course her mothers family was Jewish(and by extension herself by bloodline^^Insert Goldsmith joke here LOL^^, even though she was christened). Aside from possible interest in her family tree, i'm not aware of a lot of active interest in it, but im sure even I have gaps in my knowledge XD.

I often wondered if her seemingly lack of interest in the CoE had to do with the Archbishop dishing about them, the fact its the official religion of the RF & her latter desire to be away from everything RF, and thus could she really have total faith that anything said to a vicar, etc.would really be just between them both, etc.? I often felt that church sort of failed her in a way.

[oak_and_cedar]

Diana's friends speak of someone that was essentially a dreamer. Tina Brown and Simone describes how she was for example in total denial about the reality that Charles had gone for gone, hoping and anticipating some king of reunion. Then this idea that somehow the BRF would feel so sad about her suffering after Morton and Bashir that they would immediately apologize, mend their ways and bring her back to the fold (boy did she misread their reactions??? :hehe:)

With Mr. Wonderful she thought that a man who liked his private life and valued his profession could ever consider becoming a public accessory to the most photographed woman in the world. Off she went to Pakistan, trying to learn more about the culture apparently...bearing in mind that women are supposed to have their heads chopped off for adultery in some Islamic states. Then that open heart surgery visit with her looking glamorous and watching on as Khan worked. There was not a chance Khan was going to marry her...anyone could have told her that if she asked.

The whole Dodi thing was just a bad idea from the start to the end (including the press invitations to photograph their love). Diana had come from a royal system where she complained of being undervalued, ignored and treated like a brood mare. Was she going to truck her luck with Muslims? :teehee: Diana was not realistic in her expectations.

In my highly personal opinion Tina Brown and Simmons aren't the best of sources for how Diana thought, felt etc. In my opinion Brown tends to discard proof that goes against how she think things 'went'. Not very reliable in my opinion.

Interesting you should mention Simmons. I've read her book. In it Simmons recounts how Diana, when she went to Pakistan, had observed Imran and Jemimas relationship. She said that because of the differences in culture etc. it probably wouldn't last. Now this is from memory, I read that book last year, so I could be wrong. If true however this shows an individual that was observant and intelligent enough to see where things were going. In my opinion this sounds like Diana. So, perhaps she 'took notes' for her own relationship too?

She thought she could live in a relationship as normal people do with the man she was being with. He had no business going 'hush hush' with her if it didn't lead anywhere seriously. She gave two years of her life to him. Did he ever compromise?

I think, in my opinion, that people are slightly 'hoodwinked' by Khan. I don't think that he was against a union as many people think. In his testimony i've read (I might be wrong) that he was aware of Diana traveling to his parents and they had discussed it. He was also aware, if I recall correctly, that Diana traveled to SA and he also said that she often found reasons or 'excuses' as to why this was bad, why this place wasn't going to work etc. Again in my opinion and if I remember things right. This doesn't sound like a woman with her head in he clouds but someone who's understanding that some things might not work out. Remember, he wanted to carry on. She left.

You also have to remember one thing, people are quite capable of putting on a mask. No one is going to show their 'cards' and say straight of bat that in our culture we do this and this and you are not allowed to do this and this. People put their best foot forward. Another thing that was going against her was that she was not familiar with 'eastern' culture with it's religious practices. She might also think well he or she etc. are very westernised without realizing how deeply ingrained some aspects are. Thus she was naive as most people are when they don't interact. My personal opinion is that she didn't have too much experience with that religion and culture.

She fell in love and wanted to know his background so she read up on his religion. How do we know that she didn't take objection with certain things that she read?

Double post auto-merged: March 08, 2019, 09:32:20 AM

I think had the family approved & Khan's ego structure was different, they'd have lived as Muslims (provided HM allowed it as her connection to the boys could have made that complicated).

Per Khans testimony, if I recall correctly, I Think they did approve. What you must understand is that women are NOT required to live as muslims. The Child gets the fathers religion so it's not a problem. If my memory serves me right Khan said so himself. I don't know if she seriously considered it. I Think when she traveled to Pakistan and saw the 'reality' of the religion and the culture it influences she got 'Cold feet' or snapped back to reality. We must understand that she saw islam through western mens eyes. Who themselves may have had a pronounced romantic view. Thus reality might've hit her when she saw the 'practicalities' for herself. I don't think that she seriously considered converting. She probably was 'searching' and Went through a phase.

[royalanthropologist]

Diana once said her women's instinct was very good at working things out. It did not serve her well when it came to selecting life partners.

If she was the one that knew that Khan was not going to work out due to cultural differences, what was that hullabaloo about with the press being invited to photograph her on the yacht kissing Dodi? What exactly was her motive for that? Some press attention (the press that she hated)? Wipe Camilla off the tabloid pages after her 50th birthday party? Make Khan jealous? Why did she invite the press?
Double post auto-merged: March 08, 2019, 09:42:19 AM

I often wondered if her seemingly lack of interest in the CoE had to do with the Archbishop dishing about them, the fact its the official religion of the RF & her latter desire to be away from everything RF, and thus could she really have total faith that anything said to a vicar, etc.would really be just between them both, etc.? I often felt that church sort of failed her in a way.

COE is a state religion and one of its major purposes is to ensure that the objectives of the state are given ecclesiastical clearance. That may include sanctioning the divorce and remarriage of POW once the monarch and government approved; even if it means changing the Church rules to do so. I think Diana learnt after Panorama that when it came to choosing between her and Charles, the establishment would always choose Charles no matter the cost to her personally. I understand the Bishop of Canterbury himself sanctioned the divorce.

As for alternative religions, I can see Diana trying Catholicism after all her own mother converted. Her life as a Muslim or Christian woman married to a Muslim does not seem to be well-thought out. She was bound to face problems as a modern woman with an independent streak.

[oak_and_cedar]

I don't know why she choose the people she did. Perhaps because of her looks and fame there were many 'creeps'/'unworthy' that she 'saw' off and those were the best of the bunch? I don?t know.
By the way, in my opinion, the reason the put such an emphasis on her instincts was that she felt inferior intellectually. Thus she tried to make it up by saying that she had great instincts. In truth she was human and liable to make mistakes. Like the rest of us. This is my opinion anyways.

I can't really speak for Diana. She and she alone knows why she did it. I can only speculate. My opinion is this. She ended her relationship which was mainly 'hush hush' and not by her own choice. She was probably frustrated and fed up and wanted to make a clean break from the past. By inviting the paparazzi she effectively announced that she was a 'free agent' and officially in the 'game'. As has discussed by others, maybe someone attractive, wealthy and honorable could then 'come along' and meet her needs? It's also a way to tell other people in her life ?I?m moving on. Don't bother me anymore'. I could of course be wrong. This is just my opinion.

[amabel]

She invited the paparazzi to see her with Dodi because she wanted charlres and the RF and Khan to see that she now had a new and very rich lover...  She was fed up problaby with Khans insistence that they would never marry, and she wanted to show him she had someone else.  She teased the media, putting out pics of herself and Dodi, making provocative remarks and they were then hot on the trail of more pics of her and Dodi.. and alas it ended in tragedy.... 

Double post auto-merged: March 08, 2019, 06:58:33 PM

I just think that abstract thought, in the sense of interfaith study, just wasn't Diana's cup of tea. She was far from unintelligent but I just can't see her getting deep into the academic concepts of any of the mainstream religions, myself.

I see Diana as very much a people person, and, as amabel has said, she would have looked at Islam through the prism of various relationships she took up. For instance, her friendship with Jemima Goldsmith who married Imran Khan (known in England as a cricketer and later as a politician) and through the love she had for Hasnet, of course.

Diana and Jemima became very close at one stage, and at times I think that Diana did see herself living as Jemima did (but without the political element), as a sort of Westernised Islamic wife, floating around in very becoming and colourful outfits and scarves that didn't quite cover the golden locks, and helping Hasnet at times in disadvantaged surroundings, if not in Pakistan then elsewhere in the Third World.

Wh

I don't think she was terribly intelligent.. and I agree that she did tend to be a bit of a dreamer.. we all are I suppose, when unhappy.  but I think she had a tendency to ignore the difficiulties in a situation and believe that the positive side would all come true.  I think that she did study Islam to try to please Khan.. and also because she had taken a bit of a fancy to the idea of "Islamic life and culture" and she did see herself as a bit like Jemima Khan with a handsome foreign husband.  She ignored a lot of the realities, one of which was that Khan didn't want to marry her and his family didn't want her to wed him....and that after being a wealthy Princess, it might not be easy to live in Pakistan where she would be very much of a foreigner.. or even as a middle class Doctor's wife in soemwhere else like S Africa.   He would have hated her attracting the Press. She might have missed the Press when they weren't there.. And I don't think that he would have liked to be her handbag carrier when she went on tours, he would rather do his own real job.
I think that Jemima K has now split wth her husband..and the same mgith have happened to Hasnat and Diana.  But I think they did love each other and its an awful pity that their love was so difficult to fulfil...