Princess Diana curtseyed

[royalanthropologist]

Of course she did. Her romantic life was chaotic. Her relationships were failing and it is absurd to say that they all failed because she was married to Charles and feared losing custody of her child. If that was the case, she would never have had a single affair.

To me the problem was that Diana became needy, controlling and manipulative in her all relationships following the failure of her parents marriage and later on her own. She felt that someone had to be 100% for her and with her in order to have a relationship with them.

[sandy]

Two different boyfriends in her last year on earth. Does not sound chaotic to me.

It also takes two to make a relationship. She and Khan had cultural differences. He did admit he loved her. Which I don't see as a failure in the least.

Dodi is an unknown quantity. Their feelings for each other are never to be known since both are dead and in their graves.

And you don't think Camilla controlling and manipulative?! A  nice and polite woman would not have gotten as far as Camilla did. She did put her side out to Stuart Higgins, trashed Diana to Charles, and I find her pushy and nervy. The Queen Mum did not receive her after the divorce of the PBs, calling her "ruthless and a schemer."

Diana learned from two pros at manipulation. Charles manipulates through self pity and whining. Oh poor Poor Charles was the theme of many of his books including his authorized one. If that is not manipulation I don't know what is.
Double post auto-merged: October 26, 2017, 04:04:52 PM

And Diana "dated" Oliver Hoare when he was married as he still is, to his wife Diane.

So where is the photo of Diana going on a date with the Hoares. Plenty of Charles dating the PBS? Two different scenarios.

[Curryong]

Yes, a bit of speculation on our own forum about a love child of Charles, born after Ms Jenkins renewed her acquaintanceship with the so-faithful POW in 1983 or thereabouts.

There are also little titbits there about Camilla being upset about Tiggy going along on an overseas trip with Charles and the boys.

From the deep dark Vaults.

Could Charles have another Son?

[dianab]

^^ Obviously your account isnt correct. As both James Hewitt and Hasnat khan said as they'll have continued their relationships with her if she hadnt grow tired (read: dumped) of them

Hasnat Khan said there were no cultural difference between them. As he lived very well in England. And his family never forced him marry no one. He was even married to a occidental doctor woman, 20 and so years his junior (shortly before the Diana movie, he and his wife got divorced). According to him the issue with Diana was he didnt want to be seen with her.

I think Diana after the separation loved Charles as the father of her children. They had children together and the divorce arrangement stipulated shared custody and Diana would attend events involving the children.

I believe she loathed him like many ex-wives loathe the men they unfortunately married and had children with.

[sandy]

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1280&bih=864&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=vgfyWc3kC8LRmwHL44joDw&q=charles+night+on+the+town+with+camilla+and+andrew&oq=charles+night+on+the+town+with+camilla+and+andrew&gs_l=psy-ab.3...9639.16917.0.17094.52.37.1.0.0.0.261.3865.5j21j3.30.0....0...1.1.64.psy-ab..21.9.1137.0..0j0i67k1j0i8i30k1.91.Q7T5ipYB3YQ#imgrc=9AfPEHMFWd8QzM:

Charles and his night on the town with the Parker Bowles. Not bringing his own date.
Double post auto-merged: October 26, 2017, 04:18:46 PM

^^ Obviously your account isnt correct. As both James Hewitt and Hasnat khan said as they'll have continued their relationships with her if she hadnt grow tired (read: dumped) of them

Hasnat Khan said there were no cultural difference between them. As he lived very well in England. And his family never forced him marry no one. He was even married to a occidental doctor woman, 20 and so years his junior (shortly before the Diana movie, he and his wife got divorced). According to him the issue with Diana was he didnt want to be seen with her.
I believe she loathed him like many ex-wives loathe the men they unfortunately married and had children with.

Diana was lucky to have dropped Hewitt. He turned out to be a snake selling their story for $$$$ and trying to sell the letters Diana wrote (he does not seem to have been able to hang on to the money perhaps through get rich quick schemes).

Diana did not grow tired of the man she called Mr Wonderful (Hasnet Khan) but she wanted the relationship to be more than his stopping by at KP (secretly) and not wanting to go public with the relationship. I think she did try and ultimately decided to move on. Though they may not have been "over" and had she lived they might have reconciled.

Diana still was wary of Charles though the spin was they were "getting along." They did keep up appearances at events involving their sons and maintained a civility the last year.

[royalanthropologist]

@sandy. Despite everything C&C are married. They have been together all those years despite everything. That is what I mean by stability.  None of Diana's relationship ever saw the 5-year mark. There was always something that went wrong.

You have to ask yourself what was the common denominator. I must say that the men she dated have not always had it good afterwards save for Hoare who dumped her as soon as things became public. So perhaps it was more a problem with her taste in men than her own personal issues. 

Diana had this habit of being very intense with people and then dropping them quickly if they were not 100% loyal. That is always a sign of someone that is insecure about their relationships. Most objective observers (apart from the extreme partisans) agree that Diana was manipulative, needy and controlling in her relationships. That was just her.

She could be exhausting with the constant telephone calls and the need for absolute exclusive loyalty. In my view that was a reflection of her childhood and experiences of love and acceptance. The bottom line is that Diana could never deal with rejection, one of the most important psychosocial skills for a human beings. If you lose it just because someone is not into you, it can be a very bumpy ride living your life. Rejection is a natural part of life.

[dianab]

I think she was tired of H. Khan. And would have get rid of him if she had met someone before Dodi who'd have been willing to be seen publicly with her. Khan said as when she was back from abroad she was always putting defects in places she saw for them living together as having no security et al. he said when she said that, it included SA, when/re she visited her brother. Interesting enough Charles S said as Diana thought SA as real place where she could living away from the press... i dont believe she was anymore that in love with Khan in 1997. She dumping him for another man was the par the course. Very similar to as she dumped Hewitt

[Curryong]

I don't think the issue with Khan was that he didn't want to be seen with Diana. (He could always wear a bag over his head, lol) I suspect it may have been partly that he rather cowardly didn't want his parents to become agitated about the possibility of a marriage if they were seen together.

However, I suspect the primary reason he didn't want to be seen dating Diana was the pap attention, the stupid and possibly derogatory articles in the Fail and other tabs and the gawping from the public. He loved her but he felt all the hoopla that accompanied Diana everywhere she ventured would be detrimental to himself as a surgeon and to his work.
Double post auto-merged: October 26, 2017, 04:29:39 PM

I don't think the issue with Khan was that he didn't want to be seen with Diana. (He could always wear a bag over his head, lol) I suspect it may have been partly that he rather cowardly didn't want his parents to become agitated about the possibility of a marriage if they were seen together.

However, I suspect the primary reason he didn't want to be seen dating Diana was the pap attention, the stupid and possibly derogatory articles in the Fail and other tabs and the gawping from the public. He loved her but he felt all the hoopla that accompanied Diana everywhere she ventured would be detrimental to himself as a surgeon and to his work.

[sandy]

royal anthropologist I was refuting your saying they were like a married couple before they married. And that they had a stable relationship in 1992-1996. They could not because both were married to others. Charles even had his friends deny he was in a relationship with Camilla (other than friendship) and the PBs put up appearances.

They were not together "all those years." Charles was involved with many women, some of whom he was serious about. It  did not boil down to just Diana and Camilla. Camilla was married for 22 years to Andrew Parker Bowles.  She only started "dating" Charles after he and Diana were divorced and she got her divorce from PB. Up until then they were not "together". then there was the wait from 1997-2005 for them to get married because his grandmother did not  want a C and C wedding in her lifetime.

So a woman is exhausting when she expects a faithful marriage? I don't agree with that. A woman is entitled to a faithful husband, even with a Prince of Wales.

Charles dropped Diana and you always mention this. But Diana is trashed when she ends a relationship. Double standard?

Curryong, Diana wore a wig to go incognito as a way to see Khan outside KP. But she wanted to go public. And also there were the cultural differences. And maybe she thought if they loved each other, he would want a real future with her. It seemed a complex relationship.

Who are these objective observers. The ones that say this are Charles sympathizers. Hardly objective.

[dianab]

Only myself and my closest friends knew what really went on in our relationship," he said.

"Both my parents, grandmother and all close relatives who met Diana liked her very much, and my parents and grandmother never objected to our relationship.

"They were very much happy for us to make a decision ourselves and made it clear they would support it 100%. We both had their blessing.

This amounts to the film projecting a betrayal of our relationship and my relationship with my immediate family."

He challenged the film-makers to "make amends" to his family by donating some of the proceeds from the film to his charity Chain of Hope, which provides life-saving heart surgery in Ethiopia to needy children.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/princess-dianas-former-lover-hasnat-2344202

The heart surgeon denied producer's claims he gave it "tacit acceptance" and said: "It is a complete lie. I have never given any approval."

He added: "It is based on gossip and Diana's friends talking about a relationship that they didn't know much about, and some of my relatives who didn't know much either."

Princess Diana's former lover Hasnat Khan slams new movie based on their romance as ?a complete lie? - Mirror Online

[sandy]

The other possibility since his other relationships did not work about maybe Khan was happier being single and he himself did not want to settle down.

From his interviews, it is clear he adored Diana.

That movie was a  disaster. I doubt Diana would have had anything to do with it. It was a really bad movie.

[Curryong]

@sandy. Despite everything C&C are married. They have been together all those years despite everything. That is what I mean by stability.  None of Diana's relationship ever saw the 5-year mark. There was always something that went wrong.

You have to ask yourself what was the common denominator. I must say that the men she dated have not always had it good afterwards save for Hoare who dumped her as soon as things became public. So perhaps it was more a problem with her taste in men than her own personal issues. 

Diana had this habit of being very intense with people and then dropping them quickly if they were not 100% loyal. That is always a sign of someone that is insecure about their relationships. Most objective observers (apart from the extreme partisans) agree that Diana was manipulative, needy and controlling in her relationships. That was just her.

She could be exhausting with the constant telephone calls and the need for absolute exclusive loyalty. In my view that was a reflection of her childhood and experiences of love and acceptance. The bottom line is that Diana could never deal with rejection, one of the most important psychosocial skills for a human beings. If you lose it just because someone is not into you, it can be a very bumpy ride living your life. Rejection is a natural part of life.

On the other hand you can be a person who is so oblivious to the signs that a person may need your attention as your acknowledged girlfriend, that you dance all night in front of her in the arms of a married woman ignoring her, and then are absolutely astonished when it turns out that she is cross with you.

You can also be so oblivious to anyone else's feelings but your own when on another occasion you dance and French kiss another man's wife in front of that man and his close friends, humiliating him in front of them.

You can also be so oblivious to another person's feelings that you make love to them in the open air, then when tabloid reporters turn up you immediately jump off her and scamper off into the bushes, leaving her humiliated and vulnerable.

[royalanthropologist]

I actually agree that Charles was far from being a gentleman in his relationships. The only problem is that any negative description of Diana is immediately followed by a counter from some Diana fans to show that Charles was as bad or worse than Diana in that respect. It is still the same story of upmanship which both sides are guilty of.  Diana's life did not begin and end with Charles. She had a personality and issues way before and way after she stopped being married to him.

[sandy]

I see the same thing with Diana. It is but Diana did this and Diana did that.  this is something Penny Junor does all the time. Glosses over what C and C did but demonizes Diana in the process.

It is the usual defense of C and C (by Charles supporters Junor and his friends and relatives that Diana "had issues." Well I would say she married a man with HUGE issues, feeling a sense of entitlement so much so he felt it was OK to be with his friends' wives. Keeping it all in the family so to speak.

[royalanthropologist]

Sandy you are quite right that a wife must expect certain standards of respect, tolerance and even love from her husband. Diana did not get all of that in the way that she wanted or expected. However, the ideal is different from the reality.

But in any case the neediness I am talking about is not during her marriage to Charles but with other boyfriends.

[sandy]

Well the ideal and reality should mesh in a marriage. Especially when it comes to commitment and mutual love and respect. Charles did not love Diana and certainly did not respect her since he married her preferring another woman. If he had respected her feelings, he would not have married her not loving her.

Diana was not "needy" when she expected fidelity from Charles. If Diana were so needy she would not have been the one to end some of the relationships. Hewitt for instance was the one dumped but he got even.

[royalanthropologist]

The neediness I am talking about relates to other non-Charles relationships. She was needy in that too but she was married to a man whose behavior is bound to make a needy person much worse so I excuse her for that. It is the other relations that I talking about.  Even with Hewitt she wanted him to change job and post

[sandy]

She still dropped Hewitt not the other way around. And he acted like a man scorned. Hewitt also freely accepted her presents and he did that with women he later got involved with.  Hewitt seemed very mercenary and greedy to me.

[amabel]

She dropped J Hewitt because he was acting so that she was getting scared of him.  He was talking to reporters, hinting at their affair and then went public on it.. and Diana ended up having to admit to the affair.
He didn't care for  her, he just wanted money and the thrill of being her lover, and dropping hints to the papers about it. and he didn't want to give up his work when she tired to get him to stay in England.

[Curryong]

And how many other relationships with the opposite sex has Charles had, besides Camilla, that have lasted longer than five years? Would the answer be none? And we know why Camilla is ideal for Charles the Needy, don't we, I'm not going to repeat it all. And several of his former relationships ended disastrously.

The truth is that Diana wanted love, tolerance and respect from Charles in her married life, and she didn't get it. Why didn't she get it? Because he was bound heart and soul to another woman when he proposed and he was too weak to withstand various pressures to marry. Charles might has well have recited a couple of pages of an old telephone book in front of the altar at St Pauls for all the heartfelt meaning his vows held for him.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Wow, you all have been busy last day or so, ill try to hit the major themes I noticed in the posts.

Divorce- Its my opinion, given from her financial plans in the early 90s that she wanted out of the family, she talked to her advisor about leaving the country and remarrying having more kids. She almost called to the year her time as PoW in the tapes she made with James Colthurst.

Yes, in Panorama she said she didnt want a divorce, but you also have to understand it was as much a PR exercise as previous interviews done with C&D in the mid 80s. Diana cant be both manipulative and at the same time take her stating she didnt want a divorce as the gospel truth just because it may prop Charles up as husband material.

I think had she wanted to stay married she wouldnt have done Morton or Panorama, she was facing by the late 80s the very real possibility the Rf would either have her put away, or otherwise marginalized/made compliant to keep her both quiet over C&C, and keeping the fake Wales roadshow for the palace going.

Had she never wanted to be divorced, shed have kept quiet and played along, she blew the marriage up on purpose, to me the no divorce thing sounded like a lady that doth protest too much.

Charles and Relationships- Charles had several women he slept with during the time he was interested in Camilla from the 70s forward, and through the marriage with Diana. As for children, I liked @Curryong's article, I had thought it was going to be the one on the child that supposedly C&C had in the 70s that now lives in aus, and had his eyes pigment changed to try and reduce the resemblance, etc. (now to be fair its along the caliber of info like the JC being Williams son, so may not be true, but if it is, that would be a sticky wicket, but why not, Mark Phillips I believe has a love child, if he can, why not Charles, soon to have the keys to car LOL)

Diana being needy- Heres where I go from tacking away from RA to towards her ideas, Diana could be very needy, if you recall the huge amount she imposed on James Colthurst both before,during and after the book, with endless calls about speeches, strategy, etc. He took a tremendous risk for her ferrying about the book material, and then was a de facto private secretary. Then when she thought he took money for his role in the book, she cut him off and used to call him "that little shit" and ended the friendship. Colthurst denied taking money, but IMO was well within his right to do so, had she had to pay a speech consultant or press consultant for all those hours it would add up to quite a lot, he said she often made unreasonable demands on his work as a doctor then with the time constraint.

She would call Simone Simmonds for several hours, up to over 8 at a time. As she got more and more isolated from seeing people first living at KP, then after the separation,divorce and her circle of friends shrinking, she had to rely on the phone more and more.

She had lots of abandonment issues that as mentioned she would require unreasonable loyalty that she would not always return, she tried to blame her staff for the Hoare calls, she cut off Hewitt the first time and Gilbey pretty unceremoniously when they were no longer useful, although Gilbey was a glutton for punishment going back to the well after she egged and floured his car after he stood her up on a date (id have liked to see who the other date was, cause late70s Diana was quite the sight, IMO).

Diana's Relationships - As she said, she was a "bad picker" and it seems from the getgo, picking Charles for the reasons she did, Barry and Hewitt were not the type to provide the long term companionship she needed, but like Gilbey, they were easy shoulders to cry on. Then picking ones like Hoare & Carling & Dodi for petty jealousy to either lure or lash out at Charles.

Khan was the first real try at happiness, but again she chose like Charles a weak, self involved man, afraid of crossing his family and stuck in bachelor routines and married to his work, and unwilling to see himself overshadowed by his wife (he didnt want to be Mr. Diana, just like Charles was for most of the 80s & 90s  :lol:). When you think about it, and its just hitting me now, Charles and Khan were very much alike, I can see why she chose him, but it was the same disastrous ending with them parting.

I would have liked her to find someone that loved her and would take care of her and be able to deal with the "hot mess" of her global celebrity but I dont think there was anyone out there who could.

Married life - I notice a lot of people looking at their marriage with a certain middle class romantic idealism, which is required in most marriages to keep them together when each partner is much more financially and practically dependent on the other than ultra rich/upper classes. They just dont need their wife to clean and cook, and the wives dont need the men to mow the lawn or clean the gutters, etc.

Now thats not to excuse what C&C did, but its pretty clear that that kind of setup was common with most of that set, if not, you would have had a lot more husbands want to sock Charles in the jaw when he used to go on his "comfort stops" from manor to manor having his way with the ladies of the houses. Not to mention the high rate of infidelity in all sectors of society, it should have occurred to Diana what she was getting into, and if not, as is claimed, im very cross with the people in her life that should have had her prepared for it, as they let her walk blind into a trap.

I think she may have been a bit calculating in choosing Charles as a husband, like most women did when assessing him as "the most eligible bachelor in the world" it certainly wasnt for his face or delightful, caring manner. Much like many guys wernt interested in say, Farah Fawcett for her stunning intellect. But I think she was romantic with the idea of being married and felt romantic towards him, but it was also fraught with the self esteem and abandonment issues that caused her to choose the absolute worst person for her, because by convention/ assumed if not actual, law he could divorce her.

I think had the marriage been more about being with Charles as opposed to the idea in her head about being married, shed have stayed around with Charles thought the Camilla thing. It was the bursting of her carefully contrived idea of married life, and by the person who was always around, that likely her instincts told her to run, but she wanted the guaranteed, no divorce, marriage that she went against her better judgement, that caused her to lash out and upend the apple cart and push for the divorce, while making seem she didnt want it.

If she was just a gold digger, she have stayed quiet and kept wearing her tiara and wed never know so much about what went on, they be a boring older married couple with maybe lots of tabloid fodder but no tell all TV interviews.

That what makes her story so interesting she was so careful and calculating in getting to the alter, but once she got there, she went totally by the heart, and it cost her so much in the end. She needed a sweet, nice man to care for her wounded heart, but few of those men are princes, CEO's or billionaires. :flower:

[amabel]

And how many other relationships with the opposite sex has Charles had, besides Camilla, that have lasted longer than five years? Would the answer be none? And we know why Camilla is ideal for Charles the Needy, don't we, I'm not going to repeat it all. And several of his former relationships ended disastrously.

The

I've never heard this.  yes his relationshisps ended, but most people have several relationhips before they settle down. As far as I know he's firneds with at least some of his exes and I've not heard of big rows when they broke up

[Trudie]

^ There was a big row with Anna Wallace

[amabel]

And as far as I've read, the night that Diana was noted for Dancing with Philip Dunne for ages, at a party, Charles was talking to his old flame Anna Wallace. I've never heard of his relationships breaking up disastrously.  Of course he must have had the odd one that ended in rows, but I haven't heard of many acrimonious breakups in his love life.

[sandy]

^ There was a big row with Anna Wallace

In a book I read about Charles and Diana, Charles was pleading with Anna Wallace not to break up with him (after their row).  He spent most of the evening dancing with and talking to Camilla She said during the row "nobody treats me like that, not even you!" He also dashed away from Anna Wallace (when they were about to make love) when he saw the paparazzi, leaving her to her own devices.

Another lady Sabina Guiness was ordered out of Balmoral because she failed the test.

Charles also scolded Sarah Spencer over the phone because she spoke to the media.
Double post auto-merged: October 27, 2017, 12:19:58 PM

I've never heard this.  yes his relationshisps ended, but most people have several relationhips before they settle down. As far as I know he's firneds with at least some of his exes and I've not heard of big rows when they broke up

He called Dale Tryon his "best good friend" and she was his mistress.  He dumped her. When she was seriously ill he refused to even talk to her on the phone.