The Tudor Dynasty and the Elizabethan Age

[Hale]

I am ashamed to say, :girlblush: that I found myself going OFF Topic in a thread about Anne Boleyn.  Seeing that stuff comes up about the Tudor era from time to time I thought it would perhaps be a good idea to have a thread where we can discuss all subjects relating to these moments in history.

Sandy writes:

Mary was not considered illegitimate by the Catholic countries. They considered Henry's marriage to Anne null and void and Mary the true legitimate daughter.  Henry made Mary illegitimate but the Catholic countries didn't recognize this decree-particularly the Emperor Charles V, Mary's cousin.  Mary also had the backing of the Pope who backed the dispensation Henry got to marry Katherine and never named Mary illegitmate.

I didn't doubt Katherne's allegiance. She IMO could have gotten support from the Emperor to fight for the crown (raising an army)for her daughter Mary--Katherine was popular, Anne Boleyn was not.. But Katherinne did not--although she didn't accept Henry's verdict that the marriage was null and void, she didn't try to rise an army or uprisng (Katherine as regent WAS in charge of a military campaign aganst the Scots--which she won). In her mind Henry was living in sin with Anne and never recognized the marriage. Mary although hurt by her father loved him and ultimately came  back to court after her mother died.

THere were no doubts about Mary's legitmacy before the divorce. Henry could have married Mary off--and she was betrothed to Charles V and also to a French Dauphin.  Henry named Mary illegitimate and made for a time Elizabeth the legitimate heir.

Had Katherne's son Prince Henry lived, Henry would never have had "doubts" about the marriages's validity.  Henry just used this to extricate himself from the marriage. I doubt there would be any queston about Prince Henry's legitimacy.

Also where was Henry's allegiance to Katherine? I think he treated her abominably taking on mistresses, even naming his illegitimate son Henry Fitzroy, the Duke of Richmond, the ceremony naming him was something Katherine had to watch. It was not Katherine's fault that the childlren died--childlren died young and the medications we take for granted were not available back then.  I also don't think Henry treated his wives that well, he even was said to lose his temper with Jane Seymour and Katherine Parr would have gone to the Tower had she not had the chance to soothe over a quarrel with Henry about religion.  Anne BOleyn was beheaded on trumped up charges. Ann of CLeves did get a break by Henry not wanting her as his wife--she got to stay in England as Henry's "sister" and received a good settlement.

Henry married Katherine and the two were said to be in love. Henry didn't quibble over the dispensation which was recognized. It was only due to Henry's wanting a male heir and his attraction to ANne Boleyn that he played the she was married to my brother card  He was also attracted to Anne and moved heaven and earth to marry her, but when he got disatisfied with her because of her not having a son had the alleged "lovers" tortured so they would "confess" and had Anne executed.

Henry was not exactly the most loyal person in the world.

THere were no doubts about Mary's legitmacy before the divorce

Yes there were doubts, because whilst Henry & Catherine were married they tried to arrange a marriage between Mary and Francis I son as well as Mary's cousin Charles V, but they weren't buying it because at the time a question of legitimacy hung over Mary.

With respect, I've always felt that when people look at the life of Henry VIII they are inclined to simplify it by solely isolating his personal life.  In the context of its times, England had come through the bloody War of the Roses which was virtually a civil war and the then history also recalls the civil war between Mathilde and Stephen.  It was widely felt that England was best governed by a man, the thinking of the time.

When Catherine married Arthur, Henry's brother, this was a political alliance between Spain and England.  Catherine married Arthur first by proxy and then face to face in November 1501.  Following their marriage Arthur and Catherine went to stay in Ludlow Castle and in April the following year Arthur died.  In other words they were living as man and wife for 5 months.  Yet we are expected to believe that never once was this marriage consummated.  Despite Arthur's proclamations the day after his wedding, "I have been deep in Spain this night," and despite the customs of the day which required Ladies of the Bedchambers to inspect the bed sheets in order to help confirm the virginity of the bride.

When Catherine became a widow, Henry VII and Isabella & Ferdinand were determined to maintain their political alliance hence why they sought the Pope's approval for the marriage of Catherine and Henry VIII.  Henry VIII, then Prince of Wales actually protested against it.  Catherine was required to swear that she was still a virgin, which she would have done because she remained dutiful to the wishes of Spain and Isabella, Catherine's mother made sure that the marriage wouldn't raise any eyebrows because of Catherine's marriage to Henry's brother by obtaining a Papal Bull which overruled any religious objections to the marriage.  Henry VIII who did object to the marriage allowed himself to be talked into it by Cardinal Wolsey who was a trusted adviser of his father.  What Henry didn't know was that Wolsey was in cahoots with Spain because he had ambitions of his own to one day become Pope and Spain were prepared to support these ambitions in exchange for whatever.

When Henry was to later seek a divorce popular history makes this out to be because Henry wanted to marry Anne Boleyn in order to produce a legitimate heir.  However, the Catholic church in their need of money to finance building projects became corrupted and out of this Protestantism was borne which was a direct reaction to the corruption of then Catholic Church.  This was sweeping fast through Europe and the Pope knew it.  To such an extent and desperate to keep England within the fold of the Roman Catholic church the then pope was perfectly happy to intercede on Henry's behalf so that Mary could marry her first cousin James V of Scotland, this would have realised Henry VIII's ambition of a Great Britain and the Pope was also willing to legitimize any children of Henry and Anne Boleyn's thereby sanctioning royal bigamy and adultery.  The Pope was even prepared to bless a marriage between Mary and the Duke of Richmond who was none other than Henry's illegitimate son by Bessie Blount and therefore the half-brother of Mary.  Henry though was having none of it because in his heart of hearts he truly believed that his marriage to Catherine was cursed.  Henry didn't have to divorce Catherine, he wanted to.

Catherine, wasn't this sad wretched Queen she is made out to be.  She was a politically astute woman whose loyalties remained first and foremost Spanish.  To such a degree, that Henry allowed himself (stupidly) to be talked into by Catherine in joining the Holy League with Catherine's nephew Charles V.  This was contrary to the interests of England.  Henry originally favoured an alliance with France, understandably because Henry knew darn well the biggest threats to his kingdom were, geographically speaking,  Scotland and France.  When Henry did form an alliance with Charles V, it is said that he wanted to do this because then it gave him an excuse to invade France and annex part of it.  However, Henry didn't have a choice because he knew the only thing separating  France from England was a small stretch of water, namely the English Channel.  By securing a foothold in France Henry knew that if then France ever threatened England he could then launch attacks from his stronghold in France.

As for Charles V invading England, he didn't have to.....what he did was to Sack Rome and imprison the Pope.


I have never understood why people apply today's morals to those whom existed 500 years ago.  I take the view you have to look at things in the context of their time.  Henry today has a bad rep because he separated England from Rome and because he burned priests and had churches pulled down and was responsible for approximately the death of 60,000 (possibly more) of his own countrymen.  Yet, what did Henry do that other Kings in Europe didn't also do?  Other Kings also pulled down churches, burned priests and raped nuns if the locals didn't support their claims.  They too were responsible for the deaths of their own countrymen which also numbered in their thousands.   As for the Papacy at that time, they weren't just about spiritualism, but instead all about foreign policy.  Each successive Pope starting from the early 12th century and following the translations of the Arab libraries in Toledo, saw themselves as Emperors of Europe.  A Caesar of their time.  They were all about enriching the Papacy contrary to the interests of those individual countries.  Something had to give and Protestantism was the start.  

Henry's desperation for a male heir was borne of the history that went before him and from the astuteness of his generation.  He realised England remained a feudal society  and the only way to secure its future from threats abroad and within was to become an absolute ruler in his own time and commence the building of a chain of forts and lay the foundations of what was to become the Royal Navy.  Little did he know that the religion he forced upon England would also sow the seed of Republicanism and I daresay he would have been astonished to learn that the heir who would realise many of his ambitions and prove to be England's greatest monarch was not a male but instead a female, namely Elizabeth I.

[cinrit]

Wonderful post, Hale!  You summed up the whole situation beautifully.  :yay:  And thank you for bringing up this topic.  I have never believed that Catherine and Arthur didn't consummate their marriage.  If they didn't, they had to have been the coldest-blooded teenagers in history.  The only thing that I would say about Catherine and Henry is that I've always thought that, though Henry initially was against marrying Catherine (while his father was still alive), and before he became the Henry VIII that we think of now, he thought of Catherine as a sad, romantic figure and believed he was rescuing her from her terrible position by marrying her.  Oh, here's an interesting question ... had Henry not married her when he took the throne, what might have happened to her?

Cindy

[amabel]

Wonderful post, Hale!  You summed up the whole situation beautifully.  :yay:  And thank you for bringing up this topic.  I have never believed that Catherine and Arthur didn't consummate their marriage.  If they didn't, they had to have been the coldest-blooded teenagers in history.  The only thing that I would say about Catherine and Henry is that I've always thought that, though Henry initially was against marrying Catherine (while his father was still alive), and before he became the Henry VIII that we think of now, he thought of Catherine as a sad, romantic figure and believed he was rescuing her from her terrible position by marrying her.  Oh, here's an interesting question ... had Henry not married her when he took the throne, what might have happened to her?

Cindy

I think that her you're applying modern standards to the Tudors.  I think its very possible that C and Arthur didn't consummate their marriage.  She and he were young, his health was poor and they weren't a modern couple of kids who were in love or hot for each other. it was a political alliance. and IMO it was very possible that he literally was not up to it, maybe tried and it didn't work, often happens iwht teenagers and they put it off for a bit. then he became more sick and died.
Catherine had her political opinions but there's no indicateion IMO that she wasn't loyal to her husband's country, in essence, although nationalism was not a force at the time. I think that she was a woman of integrity and would not have died iwht a lie on her conscience....

[sandy]

The Tudors were considered "upstarts" by  some; Henry VII was said by critics to have a slim claim to the throne based on his descent from John of Gaunt--Elizabeth, his wife was a King's daughter. So Henry VII wanted a match with the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. Herny apparently fell in love with her and chose her for his wife (a few years after Arthur died).  Had the 1511 son  of Catherine and Henry lived --Prince Henry lived, the entire course of history would have changed.

[amabel]

They were an upstart dynasty.  But Henry VII wanted ot keep Kath in England because he wanted to keep her dowry...

[cinrit]

They were an upstart dynasty.  But Henry VII wanted ot keep Kath in England because he wanted to keep her dowry...

Exactly.  Henry VII was pretty much a penny-pincher.  Henry VII married Elizabeth of York, who was the daughter of a king (Edward IV), the sister of a king (Edward V), and finally the wife of a king (Henry VII).  Henry believed that by marrying Elizabeth, he would strengthen his claim to the throne ... thus, the Tudor rose, combining the white and red roses of the houses of York and Lancaster.  Elizabeth of York fascinates me because she seems so silent throughout her life.  Or maybe I just haven't read enough about her ...

Death mask of Henry VII ... http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x172/cinrit/Miscellaneous/HenryVIIdeathmask.jpg

Cindy

[Hale]

he thought of Catherine as a sad, romantic figure and believed he was rescuing her from her terrible position by marrying her.  Oh, here's an interesting question ... had Henry not married her when he took the throne, what might have happened to her?

I agree with you cinrit, Henry had a romantic image of himself.  As for what would have happened to Catherine had she not married Henry, I daresay she would have once again been married off to someone who was thought to be politically advantageous to Spain.  Such was the destiny of Princesses and Princes. 

I think that her you're applying modern standards to the Tudors.  I think its very possible that C and Arthur didn't consummate their marriage.  She and he were young, his health was poor and they weren't a modern couple of kids who were in love or hot for each other. it was a political alliance. and IMO it was very possible that he literally was not up to it, maybe tried and it didn't work, often happens iwht teenagers and they put it off for a bit. then he became more sick and died.
Catherine had her political opinions but there's no indicateion IMO that she wasn't loyal to her husband's country, in essence, although nationalism was not a force at the time. I think that she was a woman of integrity and would not have died iwht a lie on her conscience....

No amabel, I'm not applying modern standards, quite the reverse.  For royals  most marriages were politically orientated.  Neither was I referring to nationalism.  Arthur was 16 when he died.  The idea that he was too young to cohabit with Catherine is in my opinion a modern one.   We know that girls of 13 did birth children then as in fact they do now and we know that boys as young as 13, 14 and 15 engaged in sex then as they also do now.  Although sex prior to 16 is viewed as  illegal now, but not back then.  Also this view that Arthur was a sickly child is one often repeated, but what is it based on?  The fact that unlike other males of his age Arthur preferred intellectual pursuits to jousting, hunting and other sports.  Consequently, Arthur was not viewed as robust.


Their are speculations that Arthur may have had some sort of genetic disease and that Edward VI also inherited this, just as that today some speculate that he may have had diabetes, but it wasn't until after Arthur's death that it became accepted he was a sickly child and yet their are no reports.  We have Henry VIII's medical reports and we have Henry VII's medical reports, but very little of Arthur's.  If he was as sickly as some say then why is that?

Consider this, Arthur and Catherine were betrothed to one another when Arthur was only 2 years old.   Do you honestly think that Isabella and Ferdinand would have committed their daughter in marriage to someone who was thought or known to be sickly?  The whole point of the marriage was that England should ally itself to Spain in order to counteract France's power and yet the only objection Isabella and Ferdinand had to the marriage was that they didn't think Henry VII's throne was that secure which is understandable when you consider that at that time Warbeck was a claimant to the throne, although his background is quite dubious also, and it wasn't until he was captured and later executed that the marriage agreement had been finalised. 

The Tudors were considered "upstarts" by  some; Henry VII was said by critics to have a slim claim to the throne based on his descent from John of Gaunt

I happen to think that the Tudors claims to the throne were not legitimate.  I would have loved to have gone in greater detail about that, but I'm currently having a problem locating by favourite book on Henry VIII by Professor AF Pollard.  I think its in the attic and right now its too cold to go looking for it.  Meanwhile, I found this site.....it doesn't relate to what we are talking about, but I hope you find it interesting.

Tudor Book Reviews

[cinrit]

he thought of Catherine as a sad, romantic figure and believed he was rescuing her from her terrible position by marrying her.  Oh, here's an interesting question ... had Henry not married her when he took the throne, what might have happened to her?

I agree with you cinrit, Henry had a romantic image of himself.  As for what would have happened to Catherine had she not married Henry, I daresay she would have once again been married off to someone who was thought to be politically advantageous to Spain.  Such was the destiny of Princesses and Princes. 

I was thinking of the dowry that had to be returned to Catherine's father, which pretty much kept her in limbo as far as staying in England/returning to Spain.  How would that have been settled, do you think?

Consider this, Arthur and Catherine were betrothed to one another when Arthur was only 2 years old.   Do you honestly think that Isabella and Ferdinand would have committed their daughter in marriage to someone who was thought or known to be sickly?  The whole point of the marriage was that England should ally itself to Spain in order to counteract France's power and yet the only objection Isabella and Ferdinand had to the marriage was that they didn't think Henry VII's throne was that secure which is understandable when you consider that at that time Warbeck was a claimant to the throne, although his background is quite dubious also, and it wasn't until he was captured and later executed that the marriage agreement had been finalised. 

There is also a school of thought that believes he may have died of the sweating illness, which was supposedly in the area. 

Meanwhile, I found this site.....it doesn't relate to what we are talking about, but I hope you find it interesting.

Tudor Book Reviews

Thanks, Hale ... it's already got me hooked.  I want "The Other Tudors".  I've bookmarked the site to go through more thoroughly after Christmas. 

Cindy

[Hale]

Both Arthur and Catherine caught the sweating sickness, but Catherine survived.  I happen to think the dowry also caused confusion at the time.  If the marriage hadn't been consummated then the dowry would have had to be returned, but Henry VII was such a miser there was no way that was going to happen.  Besides he had already spent the half he received.

[sandy]

When Arthur was 2 he was not said to be "sickly." Henry VII and Elizabeth had several children who died young: Edmund, Elizabeth and Catherine. THe rest seemed in robust health. Edward VI, Henry's son was a healthy child but as he grew older he got more sickly and as a teenager lost a lot of his health and died young.  Arthur may have been in a similar situation to his nephew Edward, getting sick as a teenager and  dying young.

I think a lot of Catherine's problems stemmed from her mother Isabella dying--in the midst of Catherine's problems at the English court. I think she would have coped better than Ferdinand with the problems of Catherine.

Isabella and Ferdinand were worried about the claims of "pretenders" to the throne  at the time Catherine was to be sent to England and Henry VII had the DUke of Clarence's son executed so he would not be a "threat" to the TUdor claims.

Henry VII after his wife died was said to be smitten with Catherine's sister Joanna. She was widowed and not in great mental health but Henry still pondered marriage to her. 

[amabel]

I don't think Henry was smitten with Joanna, but he wanted to marry her for a dynastic alliance.  I don't think it mattered if a royal was considered sickly as long as he or she could go through the motions of marriage and get his wife pregnant or as you say Sandy, didn't matter that Joanna was mentally ill, she was royal,  and that was enough.  If she died in childbirth or went completely mental after it, didn't matter!

I didn't say that the marriage of Cath and Arthur wasn't consummated because they were too young for sex.. I said that they weren't like a modern couple of teenagers who were in love or sexually eager for each other.  They were  a couple of teenagers thrust into bed together, and expected to mate.  Given time they probably would have... it was their duty, but  problaby they were not madly  eager to make love at first.

Henry VIII after all a mature man, could not make love ot his wife Anne of Cleves.  I'd say that Arthur gave it a try, failed, probably Premature ejaculation or just plain old failure to keep it up, and possibly they then put it off for a bit, and then he became ill and died.  (Ive never heard that h e was interested in intellectual matters and not sports - but in any case the two are not mutual exclusive....)
and in any case, I'm reasonably sure that Catherine would not have died with lies on her conscience... or that she would have held to her insistence that the marriage was not consummated, when by going along with it she could have secured herself a much better settlement with Henry...

[Hale]

The idea that Catherine didn't lie on grounds of religion just doesn't hold for me.  The ideas of what was religious then is different to how it is viewed today.  For a start the Pope who granted the dispensation for Henry and Catherine to marry had fathered children and acknowledged the child.  It's surprising how many Popes did father children, when Pope.  Can you imagine the public reaction today of that happening?  Yet back then it was something altogether different.

Everyone was religious back then, but it always boils down to personal interpretation then as now.  I believe Catherine was worked on following the death of Arthur.  By that I mean Donna Elvira (I think it was her....not sure of the name)  who Isabella had sent as one of Catherine's Ladies in Waiting would have done Isabella's bidding and convince Catherine that a marriage to Henry was for the good of Spain.  Who knows what was said between them and who knows what in the mind of Catherine she would have considered consummation?  As I said in one of my previous posts, Henry was also religious...he didn't have to divorce Catherine....the Pope was willing to grant him many things in order to retain England within the Catholic Church.

This is what Henry wrong Charles V in 1529; that he could not   

"quiet or appease his conscience remaining longer with the Queen, whom, for her nobleness of blood and other virtues, he had loved entirely as his wife, until he saw in Scripture that God had forbidden their union".

Henry VIII:  The Mask of Royalty - Lacey Baldwin Smith.

There is no way Catherine would have ever admitted to the marriage being consummated because that then would have rendered her marriage illegal to Henry under Cannon Law and most importantly of all it would have rendered Mary her only daughter a bastard and destroyed her future prospects.  Catherine like any good mother was prepared to go to any end in order to protect her child.  I happen to think this was the crux of Catherine's thinking.

[cinrit]

Both Arthur and Catherine caught the sweating sickness, but Catherine survived.  I happen to think the dowry also caused confusion at the time.  If the marriage hadn't been consummated then the dowry would have had to be returned, but Henry VII was such a miser there was no way that was going to happen.  Besides he had already spent the half he received.

Ferdinand apparently had not sent to Henry VII the entire dowry that was settled upon when Catherine married Arthur.  The confusion over that and the fact that Henry refused to return the portion of the dowry that was in his possession, kept Catherine in England, unable to return home.  In one letter to her father, she is supposed to (I can't find a reference) have written:  "I choose what I believe, and say nothing. For I am not as simple as I may seem.".

Some of the letters written by Henry VIII's wives can be found here:

http://englishhistory.net/tudor/letters.html

According to this letter, Ferdinand apparently expected Henry to take from Catherine, as part of her dowry, her gold plate and jewelry.  Catherine reports that Henry refused to take any of it for fear he would be talked about as having seized what were considered her necessities (my word, for lack of a better word).

Cindy

[sandy]

I don't think Henry was smitten with Joanna, but he wanted to marry her for a dynastic alliance.  I don't think it mattered if a royal was considered sickly as long as he or she could go through the motions of marriage and get his wife pregnant or as you say Sandy, didn't matter that Joanna was mentally ill, she was royal,  and that was enough.  If she died in childbirth or went completely mental after it, didn't matter!

I didn't say that the marriage of Cath and Arthur wasn't consummated because they were too young for sex.. I said that they weren't like a modern couple of teenagers who were in love or sexually eager for each other.  They were  a couple of teenagers thrust into bed together, and expected to mate.  Given time they probably would have... it was their duty, but  problaby they were not madly  eager to make love at first.

Henry VIII after all a mature man, could not make love ot his wife Anne of Cleves.  I'd say that Arthur gave it a try, failed, probably Premature ejaculation or just plain old failure to keep it up, and possibly they then put it off for a bit, and then he became ill and died.  (Ive never heard that h e was interested in intellectual matters and not sports - but in any case the two are not mutual exclusive....)
and in any case, I'm reasonably sure that Catherine would not have died with lies on her conscience... or that she would have held to her insistence that the marriage was not consummated, when by going along with it she could have secured herself a much better settlement with Henry...

Joanna and her husband went to England to visit Catherine (after Arthur died). I read that at the time Henry was attracted to her and when she was widowed he was investigating a marriage to her.

[Lady of Hay]

They were an upstart dynasty.  

Pretty much all the dynasties that came after the Plantagenets were upstarts.  Do not even get me started on the Hanovers.    :notamused:

The Tudors were considered "upstarts" by  some; Henry VII was said by critics to have a slim claim to the throne based on his descent from John of Gaunt--Elizabeth, his wife was a King's daughter. So Henry VII wanted a match with the daughter of Ferdinand and Isabella. Herny apparently fell in love with her and chose her for his wife (a few years after Arthur died).  Had the 1511 son  of Catherine and Henry lived --Prince Henry lived, the entire course of history would have changed.

Henry VIII's only real claim to the throne was through his mother Elizabeth of York because she came from a legimate line and was the eldest daughter of King Edward IV.  But even Edward's claim to the throne was through a female.  Since, England never adopted "Salic Law" and only used it in practice the House of York did have more claim to the throne.  Funny how Henry wanted a son so badly and his only claim to fame was through women.  

[Scarlet Flowers]

I don't believe Arthur and Catherine consummated the marriage. He was weak and sickly and didn't live long after the wedding. I think Catherine would have told the truth if she had slept with Arthur. She was in a no win situation anyway, Henry wanted her OUT. And even she would have known that he would put her aside anyway. Henry himself NEVER indicated that Catherine was not a virgin when he married her. Catherine even said to Henry in a tribunal you KNOW I was not with another man previously after our wedding night. Also Catherine's problem was not being able to get pregnant but the mortality rate of her children (stillbirths, illnesses of some of the infants). Had she slept with Arthur, I think there would have been a pregnancy with Arthur's child. She was fertile and had many pregnancies with Henry.

I agree with this, Sandy.  Henry just didn't seem to give a flying flip.

[sandy]

I read that after Arthur died, Elizabeth and Henry tried again for a "spare." Elizabeth became pregnant and gave birth to an infant daughter Catherine. She and Catherine died soon after. Henry VII then looked to remarry most likely to have more sons. He was anxious for the dynasty to continue and have another son besides Henry who was his only surviving male heir.

[cinrit]

I don't think Henry was smitten with Joanna, but he wanted to marry her for a dynastic alliance.  I don't think it mattered if a royal was considered sickly as long as he or she could go through the motions of marriage and get his wife pregnant or as you say Sandy, didn't matter that Joanna was mentally ill, she was royal,  and that was enough.  If she died in childbirth or went completely mental after it, didn't matter!

I didn't say that the marriage of Cath and Arthur wasn't consummated because they were too young for sex.. I said that they weren't like a modern couple of teenagers who were in love or sexually eager for each other.  They were  a couple of teenagers thrust into bed together, and expected to mate.  Given time they probably would have... it was their duty, but  problaby they were not madly  eager to make love at first.

Henry VIII after all a mature man, could not make love ot his wife Anne of Cleves.  I'd say that Arthur gave it a try, failed, probably Premature ejaculation or just plain old failure to keep it up, and possibly they then put it off for a bit, and then he became ill and died.  (Ive never heard that h e was interested in intellectual matters and not sports - but in any case the two are not mutual exclusive....)
and in any case, I'm reasonably sure that Catherine would not have died with lies on her conscience... or that she would have held to her insistence that the marriage was not consummated, when by going along with it she could have secured herself a much better settlement with Henry...

Joanna and her husband went to England to visit Catherine (after Arthur died). I read that at the time Henry was attracted to her and when she was widowed he was investigating a marriage to her.

I've lost track of which Henry we're talking about.  :laugh:  Since Henry VIII would have been a little young to investigate a marriage with anyone at this stage, I suppose we're talking about Henry VII?  If so, I've read a conflicting reports about his intentions towards Joanna.  After the death of Elizabeth of York, Henry sought to marry Margaret of Savoy, who was Joanna's sister-in-law (Phillip's sister), but somehow that fell through.  After the death of Phillip the Fair, Henry VII wished to marry Joanna herself.  He was finally convinced to believe that marriage to her, because of her mental status, was impossible.  The only reference I could find online for this is in James Franck Bright's "A History of England .. : Period II. Personal History ... ", pages 364 and 365.

http://books.google.com/books?id=crdCAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=A+History+of+England:+Period+II:+Personal+monarchy,+Henry+VII.+to+James+II+...++By+James+Franck+Bright&hl=en&ei=bSAVTcrfNYKdlgejyMXWCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

He goes on to report that: "This seems so inconsistent with his usual prudence, that, as Ranke suggests, his request for the hand of Joanna may have been only intended as a means to check the urgent demands of the Spanish Court for the completion of the marriage between Catherine and the Prince of Wales, which Henry had no wish to see consummated."

Cindy

[sandy]

Henry VII had severa prospects in his mind as a possible second wife. Joanna did have her lucid moments and was not always "mad".  Henry's plans for a second marriage did fall through or perhaps he actually was not all that serious about going into  a second marriage and was just really only at the investigation stage or "thinking about it." If he didn't have Princne Henry Henry as a surviving Henry VII may have gone into a marriage for the sake of getting a male heir fr the TUdor Dynasty

I watched the TUdors Part I (the miniseries and Pt. I took liberties with reality. Henry VIII's tw sisters Mary and Margaret were merged into one character "Margaret" was shown murdering (with a pillow) her elderly Portuguese royal husband so she would be free to marry Charles Brandon.  The true story of Mary and the French King was worth telling so I don't get why the producers of the TUdors did such a thing.

[Lothwen]

^The producers claimed that it was because they were afraid the audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Mary the daughter and Mary the sister.  Even though they had countless "Henrys" running around.

[cinrit]

I watched the TUdors Part I (the miniseries and Pt. I took liberties with reality. Henry VIII's tw sisters Mary and Margaret were merged into one character "Margaret" was shown murdering (with a pillow) her elderly Portuguese royal husband so she would be free to marry Charles Brandon.  The true story of Mary and the French King was worth telling so I don't get why the producers of the TUdors did such a thing.

The Tudors was a very good story, but it wasn't exactly the true story of the Tudors.  I saw some of each season, and all of the second season (Anne Boleyn).  I don't think I've ever seen any historical movie or mini-series that was as inaccurate as The Tudors.  The life of Henry VIII really didn't need to be exaggerated ... the real story is interesting enough.  I loved watching Anne Boleyn walk around the castle wearing tiaras.   :lmao3:

Cindy

[cinrit]

^The producers claimed that it was because they were afraid the audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Mary the daughter and Mary the sister.  Even though they had countless "Henrys" running around.

I think that might be common in movie-land ... Wolfgang Mozart's four living children were combined into one in Amadeus ... but when it's as important to the story as Mary and Margaret were, it's important that they both be portrayed accurately.  I wonder how did they explain all the other blatant inaccuracies?  I used to know a website that had a list of all the inaccuracies in the mini-series.  I may try to find it again later today, or tomorrow.

Cindy

[Lady of Hay]

^The producers claimed that it was because they were afraid the audience wouldn't be able to tell the difference between Mary the daughter and Mary the sister.  Even though they had countless "Henrys" running around.

True.  The producers made a lot of excuses for their laziness in telling the story correctly.  I think the trouble with Michael Hurst was that somehow he forgot that these people were once living and breathing.  Most of them were not simply characters that he made up in his head and yet he behaved as though they were.

[sandy]

What is sad is Henry's sister Princess Mary was a very sweet sensitive young woman by all accounts. No way would Mary smother her elderly husband with a pillow. Mary was even highly critical of Henry's behavior with Anne Boleyn and didn't like the way he treated Katherine, his wife.

Both  Henry's sisters Mary and Margaret were interesting characters. I think they should have stuck to the facts.

[cinrit]

What is sad is Henry's sister Princess Mary was a very sweet sensitive young woman by all accounts. No way would Mary smother her elderly husband with a pillow. Mary was even highly critical of Henry's behavior with Anne Boleyn and didn't like the way he treated Katherine, his wife.

Both  Henry's sisters Mary and Margaret were interesting characters. I think they should have stuck to the facts.

I agree ... both women were very interesting.  And tracing backwards, the current Queen is Margaret's descendant.  (I didn't know that the series had Mary smothering Louis XII.  Ouch!)

Cindy