HBO Announces New, Authorized Princess Diana Documentary
HBO Announces New, Authorized Princess Diana Documentary - Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/tv/news/hbo-announces-new-authorized-princess-diana-documentary-w480111)
Interview include Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry but wait till date of August and four hour programs and two nights
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William and Harry will share intimate memories of their mother for a TV documentary that promises to paint the 'definitive portrait' of Diana on the 20th anniversary of her death
William and Harry to open up about Diana in documentary | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4466618/William-Harry-open-Diana-documentary.html)
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William and Harry speak openly about their mother in new anniversary film
William and Harry speak openly about their mother in new anniversary film - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-05-02/william-and-harry-speak-openly-about-their-mother-in-new-anniversary-film/)
Yes, I'm looking forward to seeing what her sons have to say. They knew her very well and adored her. At the very least this programme won't be a hate-fest on a dead woman, ascribing all sorts of motives to her, dissecting her mental health issues and shredding her character.
Nor will it pile most of the blame for the sadness of her life on her own behaviour, as if others had no bearing on the situation at all.
I'm looking forward to hearing how her sons regard her as an inspiration, how she has influenced their lives even from beyond the grave, and listening to friends who also knew and loved her.
I too I am hopeful that some random people do not misinterpret the documentary. i.e. ;" Oh they are praising their mum. Must be because they hate their dad". The boys can praise their mum and love their dad as well. The two things are not incompatible. It is about time the world heard from them directly because as far as I am concerned they are one of the select few people who truly knew Diana and loved her.
Yes. It is about Diana and I hope that is how it remains. I think it was about time William and Harry took back their mother's legacy so that it is not entirely defined by third parties (proponents and opponents).
It might also be the time for the brothers to tie in their work with mental health awareness by acknowledging that they have other family members (including their mother) who have benefited from seeking treatment with a professional. In the 1990's Diana's admission that she suffered from binge eating and bulimia prompted others in record numbers to seek assistance. Here is the opportunity to reach out to a new generation.
This is very true, TLLK, and I hope they do that. However, I fear that in this, as in so much else in life, people's financial position is the final determinant in a patient seeing a therapist or psychiatrist on a regular basis and whether they can slip discreetly into a private (expensive) clinic or have to wait quite a long time on waiting lists to enter state facilities. It's this, in my view, that shows the limits of Heads Together, valuable though this campaign has been in encouraging others to seek assistance.
^^^And sadly in light of recent government action this will likely be the case for those without access to private health care.
Everything We Know About HBO's New Authorized Princess Diana Documentary
http://www.vogue.com/article/princess-diana-death-authorized-documentary-hbo
Still waiting date of premiere from hbo this August
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Duke of Cambridge to Participate in Princess Diana Documentary for ITV, HBO
Duke of Cambridge to Participate in Princess Diana Doc for ITV, HBO | Variety (http://variety.com/2017/tv/global/duke-of-cambridge-to-participate-in-princess-diana-documentary-for-itv-hbo-1202406423/)
Princes William and Harry to speak of aftermath of Diana's death in new documentary
Princes William and Harry to speak of aftermath of Diana's death | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/812029/Princes-William-Harry-speak-aftermath-Diana-death-new-documentary-Paris-Crash)
'William pushed tissues under the door when Diana cried': Andrew Morton defends 'raking over the past' in his revised book - saying the Princes 'lived through' their mother's troubles daily
Morton defends impact Diana book might have on Princes | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4643712/Andrew-Morton-defends-impact-book-Princes.html)
Princes William and Harry don't wanted heard about his mom's books nope!
William and Harry Open Up About Diana Together for the First Time: 'She Was One of the Naughtiest Parents'
William and Harry Say Princess Diana Was a 'Naughty' Parent (http://people.com/royals/prince-william-prince-harry-princess-diana-parenting-style/)
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'We're both in this photo... you're in the tummy': Princes William and Harry leaf through their family album as they discuss their late mother in new TV documentary on Diana's life
Princes William and Harry to discuss Diana in new film | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4677494/Princes-William-Harry-discuss-Diana-new-film.html)
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'She was one of the naughtiest parents': Princes William and Harry remember their mother Princess Diana
'She was one of the naughtiest parents': Princes William and Harry remember their mother Princess Diana (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/08/one-naughtiest-parents-princes-william-harry-remember-mother/)
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'The naughtiest mum' Prince William and Harry speak about Diana as a mother for first time
Princess Diana as mum - Prince William and Harry speak in new documentary | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/826293/princess-diana-death-anniversary-prince-harry-prince-william-kate-middleton-meghan-markle)
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'She smothered us with love': Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry speak about Diana in new documentary
'She smothered us with love': Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry speak about Diana in new documentary - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-08/prince-william-prince-harry-diana/)
I'm so looking forward to this and to hearing some new insights into Diana from those who knew her best, her much loved sons. Other people, not heard before, will be coming forward with their memories of her too. Can't wait!
Quote from: Curryong on July 08, 2017, 08:48:10 PM
I'm so looking forward to this and to hearing some new insights into Diana from those who knew her best, her much loved sons. Other people, not heard before, will be coming forward with their memories of her too. Can't wait!
I'm agreed with you!!
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Prince William and Prince Harry Reflect on Princess Diana: 'She Was the Best Mum in the World'
Prince William, Harry Remember Princess Diana: ?Best Mum in the World? - Us Weekly (http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/prince-william-harry-remember-princess-diana-best-mum-in-the-world-w491453)
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Prince William and Harry pay emotional tribute to 'best mum' Diana
Princess Diana documentary: Princes William and Harry open up | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/826355/princess-diana-documentary-emotional-tribute-prince-william-harry)
having seen a pic on the paper on William showing a picture ot Harry and saying "you'e in this, you're in the tummy".. I think I'll certainly miss it.
Prince William and Harry honor Princess Diana in new documentary: 'She still is our mum'
http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/12017070923182/prince-william-harry-best-mom-princess-diana
Diana,our mother her life and legacy is on hbo July 24 don't missed on HBO interview by Duke of Cambridge and Prince Harry
Harry Shares His Regret Over Last Phone Call with Mom Diana: 'If I'd Known ... the Things I Would Have Said to Her'
Prince William and Prince Harry Open Up About Diana in New Doc (http://people.com/royals/prince-harry-princess-diana-last-phone-call-diana-our-mother/)
HBO will air on July 24 called Diana our mom life and legacy
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The Funny, Sweet Reason Prince William Says Diana Would Have Been 'an Absolute Nightmare' as a Grandma
Prince William on How He Talks to His Kids About Diana (http://people.com/royals/princess-diana-grandmother-prince-william-george-charlotte/)
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'The things I'd have said to her... if I knew it was the last time we'd speak': William and Harry's agony over final phone call with Diana as they share unseen photos - including one of princess pregnant
William and Harry's agony over final phone call with Diana | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4721312/William-Harry-s-agony-final-phone-call-Diana.html)
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William shows Harry 'sweet' photo of his brother beaming with delight in one of the last images ever taken of the younger prince and his mother
William shows Harry 'sweet' photo of his brother | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4721430/William-shows-Harry-sweet-photo-brother.html)
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Prince Harry on how 'total kid' Diana had the motto 'be as naughty as you want... just don't get caught' as Wills jokes he 'fell down the stairs' when his mother booked Cindy Crawford and Naomi Campbell for his 12th birthday
Prince Harry on 'total kid' Diana | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4721372/Prince-Harry-total-kid-Diana.html)
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'We bounced between the two of them and never saw either enough': Princes on the impact of their parents' toxic marital breakdown and the picture of misery that confirmed to the Queen how bad things really were
Princes on impact of parents' toxic marital breakdown | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4721460/Princes-impact-parents-toxic-marital-breakdown.html)
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'Mum was at my wedding': William on how his mother's death 'was like an earthquake' that took him seven years to get over - but she lives with him always and was there on his big day
'Mum was at my wedding': William on his mother's death | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4721302/Mum-wedding-William-mother-s-death.html)
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Princes tell documentary of 'fun' childhood with Diana
Princes tell documentary of 'fun' childhood with Diana - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40692457)
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Princes William and Harry tell of their regret over their last conversation with their mother
Princes William and Harry tell of their regret over their last conversation with their mother (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/22/princes-william-harrytell-regret-last-conversation-mother/)
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'Be naughty, but don't get caught' What joker Diana told Harry as its revealed she smuggled sweets to school in their football socks
'Be naughty, but don't get caught' What joker Diana told Harry as its revealed she smuggled sweets to school in their football socks (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/22/naughty-dont-get-caught-joker-diana-told-harry-revealed-smuggled/)
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Princess Diana's death was 'like an Earthquake', Prince William remembers
Princess Diana's death was 'like an Earthquake', Prince William remembers (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/22/princess-dianas-death-like-earthquake-prince-william-remembers/)
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William and Harry admit regret over rushed final call to Diana
William and Harry admit regret over rushed final call to Diana (http://news.sky.com/story/william-and-harry-admit-regret-over-rushed-final-call-to-diana-10958253)
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'I'll regret it forever' Prince William reveals heartbreaking last call from Diana
Prince William reveals heartbreaking call from Diana hours before her death | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/831877/princess-diana-death-prince-william-reveals-heartbreaking-last-call)
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Diana's memory kept alive for Prince George and Princess Charlotte with bedtime stories
Diana?s memory kept alive for George and Charlotte with bedtime stories | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/831914/princess-diana-william-george-charlotte-bedtime-stories-duke-cambridge-kate-middleton)
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William and Harry: The moment we heard our mother's voice for the last time
William and Harry: The moment we heard our mother's voice for the last time - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-23/william-and-harry-the-moment-we-heard-our-mothers-voice-for-the-last-time/)
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William on Diana. In his own words
William on Diana. In his own words - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-23/william-on-diana-in-his-own-words/)
The impact of separation and divorce on young children in a marriage can never be underestimated. It's still reverberating with William and Harry over twenty years later. Now, they get a chance for a cathartic session they can share with others and talk about their mum. That can only be good. It's excellent too that William talks to his children about their grandmother.
IMG_0050 ? Postimage.org (https://postimg.org/image/lvpd60v27/)
IMG_0051 ? Postimage.org (https://postimg.org/image/n9h01bubj/)
https://postimg.org/image/487k7tl4v/
IMG_0053 ? Postimage.org (https://postimg.org/image/9v3x5annj/)
IMG_0054 ? Postimage.org (https://postimg.org/image/pcrf8zu4f/)
https://postimg.org/image/s5kmt0ugv/
One of the important lessons for children of divorced parents is that it is not their fault. They cannot become invigilators of a marriage that was not theirs in the first place. All the people who support the broken family must try to keep the kids well out of the drama, even if that means not saying things that one wants to say.
I was particularly taken aback by the notion of children being ferried to and from one parent with not enough time with either parent. That is where divorcing parents sometimes get it very wrong. Your personal issues as a couple should never be allowed to interfere with your responsibilities as parents. That means not using children as pawns and certainly not asking them to take sides. Very insightful documentary though. I did find the "tummy" comment a bit strange but maybe that is how William expresses himself.
There are many children of divorce in the world today. IT is very sad and tough on the children. The boys had access to media and papers all these years so they could draw their own conclusions. I don't think the tummy comment is strange. Will has little children around and that's the sort of language parents use with little children. I think that impacted the way he talks on the documentary. I don't think William and Harry particularly liked their late mother trashed by Penny Junor, they are not going to attack her publicly but they appear to have countered some of her vitriol. It also refutes the notion that was going around that William was not speaking to his mother right before she died. Obviously he was according to his own testimony. There are subtle ways to counter things. I hope William's children and Harry's future children grow up in happy homes with no divorce. That is what should be the hope that comes out of this.
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Quote from: Curryong on July 23, 2017, 03:31:37 AM
The impact of separation and divorce on young children in a marriage can never be underestimated. It's still reverberating with William and Harry over twenty years later. Now, they get a chance for a cathartic session they can share with others and talk about their mum. That can only be good. It's excellent too that William talks to his children about their grandmother.
And I am glad they got the chance. I am encouraged to by William's saying he is telling his children about their grandmother. Good for him.
Princes William and Harry recall their last words with Princess Diana - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/23/europe/princess-diana-william-harry/index.html)
Nothing strange about William using the phrase of in the tummy. William has children and is mindful that perhaps children will watch the documentary with their parents. William and Harry were so very lucky to have had a mother that truly showed her love for them and William is making sure his children know all about their wonderful grandmother and not just their step grandmother.
Ah well. I did not consider that. The phrase tummy seemed so toddlerish but if he had his children in mind then perhaps it explains it.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 23, 2017, 03:47:52 PM
Ah well. I did not consider that. The phrase tummy seemed so toddlerish but if he had his children in mind then perhaps it explains it.
IIRC he's saying it to Harry... well.....
The kids may watch the show and if he uses anatomical terms they might ask questions...They probably ask many questions at home.
Prince William Says He Felt Princess Diana's Presence at His Wedding: I 'Felt She Was There for Me'
Prince William Says He Felt Mom Diana's Presence at His Wedding (http://people.com/royals/prince-william-felt-princess-diana-presence-wedding/)
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Princes William and Harry remember final words with Diana: 'I regret how short that phone call was'
Princes William and Harry regret rushing final phone call with Princess Diana (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072240828/prince-william-prince-harry-princess-diana-documentary/)
Quote from: sandy on July 23, 2017, 06:12:09 PM
The kids may watch the show and if he uses anatomical terms they might ask questions...They probably ask many questions at home.
and he can answer them at home.. but to be saying "you're in the tummy" to harry, on TV is cringemaking to me.
Prince William and Prince Harry Reveal Their Regrets Over Final Phone Call With Late Mom Princess Diana
Prince William, Harry on Regrets Over Final Phone Call With Princess Diana - Us Weekly (http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/prince-william-harryon-regrets-over-final-phone-call-with-princess-diana-w493641)
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William and Harry remember mother Diana in ITV documentary ? video | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/video/2017/jul/23/william-harry-remember-diana-itv-documentary-video)
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"See you later": Princes William, Harry remember devastating last call with Princess Diana
"See you later": Princes William, Harry remember devastating last call with Princess Diana - CBS News (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/see-you-later-princes-william-harry-remember-devastating-last-call-with-princess-diana/)
Double post auto-merged: July 23, 2017, 06:39:52 PM
Princes William and Harry recall their last words with Princess Diana
Princes William and Harry recall their last words with Princess Diana - CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/2017/07/23/europe/princess-diana-william-harry/index.html)
Well he said in the tummy. If the producers or sponsors did not like it they could have cut it. Maybe it was his way of ribbing Harry which he does a lot
Yeah and all these silly people trying to pretend that W and H should have a close relationship with their fathers mistress wife are just erasing history. I keep reading that they didn't speak warmly enough about her or mention her as she's family lol. As if they need to be nice to a woman who was so awful to their mum and broke up a marriage.
Prince William and Prince Harry Hadn't Seen Mom Diana in Nearly One Month Before Her Shocking Death
Prince William and Prince Harry Hadn't Seen Diana in 1 Month Before Death (http://people.com/royals/prince-william-prince-harry-princess-diana-last-seen-death/)
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Prince William Felt His Late Mother Princess Diana's Spirit at His Wedding: 'She Was There'
Prince William Felt Princess Diana?s Spirit at His Wedding - Us Weekly (http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-news/news/prince-william-felt-princess-dianas-spirit-at-his-wedding-w493699)
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Prince William: I talk about Granny Diana constantly
Prince William: I talk about Granny Diana constantly - ITV News (http://www.itv.com/news/2017-07-24/prince-william-i-talk-about-granny-diana-constantly/)
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3 photos from the personal photo album of Princess Diana
3 photos from the personal photo album of Princess Diana | NEWMYROYALS & HOLLYWOOD FASHION (http://www.newmyroyals.com/2017/07/3-photos-from-personal-photo-album-of.html)
The thing is that William and Harry have been nothing but courteous to their step mother. It is always outsiders who are hankering for the revenge agenda, always hoping for a snub or alternatively making up one if it does not exist. This program is not about Charles and Camilla. It is about the children remembering their mother.
Nice to see a post from
@Mike on the Diana board, just heartbreaking how they feel about that call, but of course there was no way to know.
'Anyone else want to reach into the TV and give them a hug?': Viewers' emotion as Harry and William reveal how they struggled to cope after their death of their mother
Twitter reacts to Diana documentary | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4726582/Emotion-Harry-William-Diana-documentary.html)
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Prince William and Harry would push notes under Diana's door saying 'It will be OK' as her marriage to Charles was falling apart, her 'rock' and former butler Paul Burrell reveals
Prince William and Harry would push notes under mum's door | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4724326/Prince-William-Harry-push-notes-mum-s-door.html)
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Diana, Our Mother: Her Life and Legacy, review: there was no schmaltz in this tribute, only love
Diana, Our Mother: Her Life and Legacy, review: there was no schmaltz in this tribute, only love (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/2017/07/24/diana-motherher-life-legacy-review-no-schmaltz-tribute-love/)
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'How could you do that to us?' The ONE thing Prince Harry can't forgive Diana for
Prince Harry opens up about 'best mum' Diana in ITV documentary | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/832592/princess-diana-documentary-itv-prince-william-prince-harry-charles-kate-middleton-news-roy)
I saw the interview it was a very nice tribute, concentrating a lot on the charity work. There were clips from the wedding in 1981 and WIlliam's talk about telling his grandchildren about Diana. Diana's brother and Anne Beckwith Smith, lady in waiting and several of Diana's friends also spoke.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 24, 2017, 06:28:12 PM
The thing is that William and Harry have been nothing but courteous to their step mother. It is always outsiders who are hankering for the revenge agenda, always hoping for a snub or alternatively making up one if it does not exist. This program is not about Charles and Camilla. It is about the children remembering their mother.
No one knows exactly how William and Harry feel about Camilla no stories have come out from servants looking to make money. Though that said William and Harry are well aware that as members of the royal family they have to put on a united front publicly. Charles and Camilla have nothing to do with the tribute of Diana this is something that is personal to them and remembering the special woman who was their mother.
Prince William and Prince Harry's most touching moments from Princess Diana's documentary - Photo 1 (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/gallery/2017072540905/princess-diana-documentary-highlights-william-harry/1/)
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Did Prince William get Cindy Crawford confused for Claudia Schiffer?
Did Prince William get Cindy Crawford confused for Claudia Schiffer? (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540900/Prince-William-get-Cindy-Crawford-confused-Claudia-Schiffer/)
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Prince Harry reveals he's only cried twice about his mum Princess Diana since her death
Prince Harry admits he's only cried twice about his mum Princess Diana (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540898/prince-harry-cried-twice-princess-diana/)
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Prince Harry says he would dress his children in the same 'bizarre' way Princess Diana used to
Prince Harry pokes fun at the way Princess Diana used to dress him (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540890/prince-harry-princess-diana-documentary-childhood-fashion/)
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Prince Harry's Most Raw and Emotional Quotes Ever: 'All I Want to Do Is Make My Mother Proud'
Prince Harry Emotional Quotes (http://people.com/royals/prince-harrys-most-raw-and-emotional-quotes/)
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Planet Diana was a crazy place but even though she drove the royals (and me!) mad when she was alive the modern-minded sons she produced are probably their best hope of survival
PIERS: Diana drove me mad but her sons are the best hope | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4728384/Diana-drove-mad-sons-royals-best-hope.html)
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William mixes up his models! Prince appears to confuse Claudia Schiffer and Cindy Crawford during Princess Diana documentary
William mixes up Claudia Schiffer and Cindy Crawford | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4728692/William-mixes-Claudia-Schiffer-Cindy-Crawford.html)
Unless people are calling them liars: William and Harry released statements and even did an interview clearly stating that there are no issues with their father's second marriage. Like any normal children, they cherish their remaining parent and would prefer to see him happy than unhappy.
A few days ago, they attended a party to celebrate their step mother's 70th birthday and within the same period they are paying tributes to their dead mother. These young men are not out to get revenge. They behave courteously and appropriately in public. What they do or say or feel in private is their business and their business alone. We all have our own private thoughts and feelings; without having outsiders constantly trying to imprint hidden motives on us.
I just thought that some commentators are not content to let a tribute about Diana go by without trying to decipher some simmering hatred and resentment. They (the commentators) may feel or hope for that simmering resentment but William and Harry are certainly not playing that game. They love their father and have said so many, many times.
I suspect that some people in the media and the general public are determined to block out the possibility that these are mature people who have a nuanced understanding of how and why the marriage between the Prince and Princess of Wales broke down. They may not have bought into the black and white versions that were presented in the popular press. They actually saw the entire thing happening before their eyes; not based on second hand reports and speculation.
Quote from: sara8150 on July 25, 2017, 05:21:20 PM
Prince William and Prince Harry's most touching moments from Princess Diana's documentary - Photo 1 (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/gallery/2017072540905/princess-diana-documentary-highlights-william-harry/1/)
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2017, 05:22:08 PM
Did Prince William get Cindy Crawford confused for Claudia Schiffer?
Did Prince William get Cindy Crawford confused for Claudia Schiffer? (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540900/Prince-William-get-Cindy-Crawford-confused-Claudia-Schiffer/)
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Prince Harry reveals he's only cried twice about his mum Princess Diana since her death
Prince Harry admits he's only cried twice about his mum Princess Diana (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540898/prince-harry-cried-twice-princess-diana/)
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2017, 05:24:09 PM
Prince Harry says he would dress his children in the same 'bizarre' way Princess Diana used to
Prince Harry pokes fun at the way Princess Diana used to dress him (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072540890/prince-harry-princess-diana-documentary-childhood-fashion/)
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Prince Harry's Most Raw and Emotional Quotes Ever: 'All I Want to Do Is Make My Mother Proud'
Prince Harry Emotional Quotes (http://people.com/royals/prince-harrys-most-raw-and-emotional-quotes/)
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2017, 05:27:55 PM
Planet Diana was a crazy place but even though she drove the royals (and me!) mad when she was alive the modern-minded sons she produced are probably their best hope of survival
PIERS: Diana drove me mad but her sons are the best hope | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4728384/Diana-drove-mad-sons-royals-best-hope.html)
Double post auto-merged: July 25, 2017, 05:30:38 PM
William mixes up his models! Prince appears to confuse Claudia Schiffer and Cindy Crawford during Princess Diana documentary
William mixes up Claudia Schiffer and Cindy Crawford | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4728692/William-mixes-Claudia-Schiffer-Cindy-Crawford.html)
Some parents like to dress the children in matching outfits. Sometimes when they have twins!
BTW, I hear you
@Duch_Luver_4ever about the mis-characterizations. However, I would also point out that many of the people that write such stuff start out as if they are trying to support Diana. Indeed they are cheered for "saying it as it is" if they are criticizing Charles and Camilla. The complaints only start when the versions they present start to raise questions about Diana's personality.
When these commentators and so called supporters describe certain scenes, they end up revealing stuff that calls into question the entire narrative. And of course Diana herself always said too much to too many people. She had too many people around her whom she considered to be friends because they told her what she wanted to hear. Those people are now cashing it.
It takes a huge leap of imagination to argue that Charles is the one that is ordering Ken Wharfe, Paul Burrell and Andrew Morton to write their books. Clearly he is not because they write quite hateful things about him and his wife sometimes. Some of the criticisms that have come Diana's way are directly related to those seemingly supportive books which reveal things that ought to be private. If you present your story to the public, you can expect that some members of that public will pick holes in it at some point. That is what is happening now. We all knew too much about Diana's life.
I see this as a nice gesture by William and Harry. No more no less. Now that they are in their thirties, maybe they felt it was time.
Getting all the people together from Diana's life to do the documentary was excellent.
Earl Spencer took part in the tribute, and has afterwards spoken on BBC radio. I've just heard the podcast. He goes through points of his controversial Abbey eulogy, However, he also states that during discussions with grey men at BP about funeral arrangements he was disturbed to discover that the boys were to walk in the funeral cortege.
He said that he stated that they absolutely shouldn't and that his sister wouldn't have wanted it. However the courtier told him it had 'been decided'. He reiterated that he didn't agree and was later told that the boys 'wanted to', which was an absolute lie. He said on the podcast that he 'was lied to'. So, who told Diana's sons to walk, and on whose behalf was the Earl lied to during the funeral arrangements? Harry's recent remarks about 'no child should be made to do that' come into context here.
Earl Spencer 'lied to' over princes following Diana's coffin - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40717424)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 10:21:26 AM
The podcast.
BBC Radio 4 - Best of Today, Earl Spencer remembers his sister Princess Diana (http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p059prcm)
So I wonder who asked that the boys walk behind the coffin. , Philip was said to persuade William to do so. So when were they asked to do this?
As I understand it, the boys had been asked whether they wanted to walk behind the coffin and they said no. Then the Duke of Edinburgh told them that they might regret it if they did not. The children thought about it and then walked.
I am absolutely certain that if the boys had not walked behind the coffin, there would be someone somewhere complaining about why the children were not being allowed to grieve. The queen did the most sensible thing by ensuring the privacy of the children. Then the agitation started about the invisible royal family. Then when they came; they were treated to hostility and that outrageous speech by Earl Spencer. Had he made such a speech in the presence of any of the Tudors, he would probably have lost his head. The impertinence and hypocrisy was extraordinary. Johnny Spencer would have been embarrassed by such a carry-on.
I think William and Harry need to start appreciating what they have in life. Complaining about the past and the allegedly bad things that members of the family might have done to you can become tiresome. DOE is 96. They should be spending the last years he has keeping him company other than griping about whether or not he advised them to walk behind their mother's casket. I am sure DOE could teach them a thing or two about public duty and not 'letting it all hang out".
There are children who go through a lot worse that walking behind the coffin of their dead mother. They must also remember that if you do not appreciate your parents and relatives, there will come a time when they are gone. Then you will not be able to say that things that you wanted to say to them.
The tribute to their mother was great. I hope they do not spoil it all by engaging in a new blame game routine.
Earl Spencer states in a broadcast on the BBC that he was perturbed when, during a hook up with courtiers at BP after his sister's death he was told that the boys would be walking. He protested and said that neither he nor, more importantly his sister would have wanted that. The courtier told him it was 'all arranged'.
When he again questioned it he says that he was told that the boys wanted to do it. He found out later, presumably by either he or their aunts speaking to William and Harry that this was not the truth. They didn't want to walk. Why are you blaming them? Neither William nor Harry discussed the subject of who asked/told them during the tribute.
Charles Spencer brought it up on the BBC. Harry has said just one thing recently about the walk, ie that he doesn't think that any child should have been put through that. I've always believed that it was their decision based on Sandra Henney's (Charles's then Press Officer) later statements. However, she wasn't privy to everything.
If a child of twelve wants to do something that might be horrendous I'm not certain that he should have been allowed to do it. Prince Philip comes from an older, tougher generation, experiences and background. Perhaps his view, if it was him who persuaded William to walk, shouldn't have prevailed. However it is Earl Spencer who's opened this latest can of worms, not Diana's sons. Sooner or later, truth will out, I believe.
Oooh what a topic ive come into, love it. While everyone has some valid points, the idea of a child wanting to do something they probably shouldnt do was the example of Harry wanting to go with his father to Paris to see his mum, and Charles said, wisely I think, that its something he shouldnt go through and the idea of DoE coming from a tougher time, could play into it, but you also have to take into account the police concern for Charles safety.
Id poster earlier on it, and cant be bothered to relook it up, but there were govt papers that said something about either them taking cars to the Abbey, or the boys walking with him,as they felt it was much less likely if they were there that any harm would befall Charles, while they had the usual security concerns, the crowd and their feelings towards him were the most unpredictable element and the one to be solved with having the boys there. IRA, or other regular planned for security concerns wouldnt care, but they were part of regular planning, but only the most heartless monster would have orphaned the boys in front of their own eyes. So in that sense, it worked, and the windsors if nothing else have are ruthless when it comes to survival.
Agreed
@royalanthropologist there was to be whinging no matter what happened, but the royals did do a pretty rubbish job of handling it. As for DoE, people remember him now as a nice old man, but forget his rushing off on a solo trip, press speculation about him seeing an actress whose name i forget now, fretting about the kids having his surname and letting the cameras into the RF in the late 60s, so for his time, he also "let it all hang out" compared to the times, were he young today, hed be all over instagram and such.
So basically the boys were used as human shields for Charles, id say Harrys recent comments and Earl Spencers tend to tilt the subject to his side,but I havent listened to the podcast yet, thanks
@Curryong for posting it and your points, although I do think Charles Spencer would take any opportunity to poke a finger in the RF's eye, so much grey, so many sides, a great topic!!!
Princess Diana's Brother on His Wrenching Eulogy: 'I Was Out of Oxygen' — and on Protecting Her Sons
Charles Spencer on His Sister Princess Diana's Eulogy (http://people.com/royals/princess-dianas-brother-wrenching-eulogy/)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:44:12 PM
The Secret Princess: Diana's Brother Reveals the Private Side of His 'Incredibly Brave' Sister
Charles Spencer on His Sister Princess Diana in People Magazine (http://people.com/royals/princess-dianas-brother-shares-a-secret-side-and-never-before-seen-photo-of-his-incredibly-brave-sister/)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:46:41 PM
Earl Spencer 'lied to' about Princes William and Harry wanting to walk behind Diana's coffin
Earl Spencer 'lied to' about Princes William and Harry walking behind Diana's coffin (http://us.hellomagazine.com/royalty/2017072640933/earl-spencer-lied-to-princess-diana-funeral/)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:51:01 PM
Diana's brother says royal officials LIED to him that William and Harry wanted to walk behind their mother's coffin as he claims there have been four break-in attempts at her grave
Earl Spencer talks about Princess Diana's funeral | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4731620/Princess-Diana-s-brother-speaks-attempted-break-ins.html)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:55:48 PM
Grave robbers have targeted Princess Diana's grave, Earl Spencer reveals
Grave robbers have targeted Princess Diana's grave, Earl Spencer reveals (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/26/princess-dianas-brother-earl-spencer-lied-princes-walking-behind/)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:57:33 PM
Princess Diana's brother says he was lied to over princes following coffin
Princess Diana's brother says he was lied to over princes following coffin | UK news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jul/26/diana-brother-earl-spencer-speaks-of-tidal-wave-of-grief)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 04:58:41 PM
Earl Spencer 'lied to' over William and Harry walking behind Diana's coffin
Earl Spencer ?lied to' over William and Harry walking behind Diana's coffin | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (http://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/833242/Earl-Spencer-Prince-Harry-Prince-William-Diana-death-funeral-royal)
Double post auto-merged: July 26, 2017, 05:00:25 PM
IMG_0060 ? Postimage.org (https://postimg.org/image/nzj2zem9r/)
I don't think William and Harry were necessarily playing the blame game. They thought back to the event and in retrospect felt it was something they should not have done. As I recall from the books about that time period, Philip had told William that he would regret it if he had not walked behind the coffin. I think that if they did not, they may well thinking they should have. It happened and it's over but they are just expressing their feelings.
I don't think they hold any grudges for their Uncle Earl Spencer they did work with him and Diana's sisters on the DIana Memorial events. There was much raw emotion back then and it was not the time for sitting and thinking things out. It was a horrendous event for them no matter what.
Diana's mother was upset that she was not allowed to see her daughter's body in the casket. It was closed. She told her biographer it was the second time she was not allowed to see a deceased child. She was not allowed to see her baby John's remains.
Without the boys' participation, the three adults may well have opted out of walking behind the casket.
He he. I think Earl Spencer must some kind of swear word in the royal circles :hehe:. The Windsors are not prone to emotional displays but I am sure they would spit on him if they could do it in private. Apparently after the funeral, the QM had a party (prior engagement) and never once mentioned anything about Diana or the funeral itself.
The Queen and Earl Spencer met at the Fountain dedication and the Memorial Service for Diana and William's wedding. They were civil to one another. The Queen has had her share of issues in her own family and there have been feuds. Even the Queen Mum and Wallis met up a few times decades after the Abdication. The family had probably private moments . I think Frances Shand Kydd had her own issues with the royals because she was deprived of viewing her daughter's body, she was practically the last one thought of. There was not so great behavior on both sides. In future, Earl Spencer will duly be invited to Harry's wedding and events involving his nephews and his grandnephew and grandniece. The royals do keep up appearances no matter what.
If I remember correctly most of the planning for Diana's funeral was done more by the courtiers and a committee to sort it all out. I believe it was the courtiers who most probably insisted the boys walk behind the coffin. The royals themselves it seems as Sarah and Diana revealed work for the courtiers and not the courtiers working for the royals and they are more grand than the royals themselves.
During that entire week I was glued to the TV and what was coming out of London. The Queen was right to keep the boys secluded at Balmoral and allowed to grieve and process their enormous loss. Earl Spencer was still in South Africa until a day or two before the funeral so he could have hardly been able to get to Balmoral anyway. I still remember the bewildered look on William and Harry's faces when they were seen outside of the gates at Balmoral to see the tributes could you have imagined if they had been in London that entire week?. I think the criticism leveled at the Queen was wrong she put duty aside and did what any grandmother would do and that was give the boys a safe harbor to mourn and support them the best way a family could in those circumstances.
The queen had the perfect response to Earl Spencers histrionics. Apparently when asked what she thought about his speech, she noted that he was entitled to say anything he felt since it was his sister's funeral.
Now, there is a woman that understands dignity and restraint; something that is alien to her godson.
While a lot of points in the speech were truthful I think Charles Spencer was setting himself up to be able to exploit Diana and the public would buy into it. Which happened. Looking back now he says burying Diana at Althorp was to keep her safe. When he offered the cottage to her which he later withdrew he couldn't keep her safe while she was alive with a bolthole on the estate?. Diana was an inconvenience or a convenience while she was alive and HRH it has enable Charles Spencer opportunity's as a Journalist covering royal stories and other career opportunity's. The Queens response was as expected in dealing with an errant spoiled child. But then again The Queen has had more experience dealing with difficult people and has learned restraint and dignity is always the best in such situations.
I did appreciate that the Diana exhibit came to the US a few years ago. I visited it when it was in Philadelphia. Spencer of course later passed the exhibit materials on to William and Harry so they can also exhibit the items. I was very impressed with how it was set up and the wedding gown was spectacular in person (there was even a matching parasol on hand in case it rained!). I think it important to have exhibits such as this one. I favorably compared it to the Jackie Kennedy Onassis exhibit that was at the Metropolitan Museum of Art. Both were done extremely well.
I appreciated the exhibit
@sandy as well but, Charles Spencer did exploit Diana and he had to pass the exhibit materials to William and Harry as per the instructions in Diana's will it was all theirs once Harry turned 30. As long as he was able to possess the items it generated him a lot of money not to mention using Diana as a way when she was alive on various career moves. I still think it was pretty low of him to offer her a cottage and then withdraw it claiming it was too much but having no problem when she died to bury her there.
Earl Spencer is backtracking now. No matter who sponsored the exhibit, I did appreciate it. William and Harry are continuing exhibits. I hope they continue the idea of traveling exhibits for those who cannot get to London.
I hope so too Sandy this is one way of keeping the legacy of Diana alive for those born who never knew Diana to learn about her and all the good she brought. William and Harry are not out to exploit their mother they are honoring her in not only what she was to them but to the people she brought comfort and hope to. Diana's biggest charitable legacies are AIDS and Landmines it was her fearlessness that brought these killers into the mainstream of awareness and look how far the fight against Aids has come it is not the death sentence it once was and Landmines well they have pretty much been banned all thanks to her.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 27, 2017, 12:26:42 PM
The queen had the perfect response to Earl Spencers histrionics. Apparently when asked what she thought about his speech, she noted that he was entitled to say anything he felt since it was his sister's funeral.
Now, there is a woman that understands dignity and restraint; something that is alien to her godson.
who asked her about this contentious matter??
@amabel. Charles Spencer spoke about that in his recent press interviews. I think he wanted to ensure that people knew the queen was not devastated by his speech. The queen probably sees him as a godson who was very angry at the senseless way in which his sister died.
Some of the things he said at funeral were quite right and needed to be said. Diana was to an extended hunted and hounded by the press. William said someone in the paparazzi promised to hound her until the day she died and that he would piss on her grave for good measure. That can be unnerving for anybody, no matter how strong and experienced you are. Since Diana was no longer a core member of the royal family, they felt they could get away with anything.
Let me just say this. If my sibling came to me for a haven as she tried to run away from the press pack, I would more than be happy to welcome her. Althorpe Park is a big place. I think that house could have given her a bolthole from the tensions in KP. Why he never allowed her, I will never know.
Then there was a the Spencer tiara fiasco. I know that it belongs to the spencer family but Diana was also part of the family. I do not see why she could not be allowed to wear it for state occasions like she used to. I am sure Diana did not wear that tiara every day. Charles Spencer was just being a rather selfish person in that respect. He should have known that the tiara meant something to her, having been publicly rejected by the Windsors. At least it reminded her that she was part of a very old and distinguished family.
charles Spencer says tat he asked the queen what she thought of his speech??
an I know there's no point in saying this, but he didn't "deny her a bolthole". but I've written about this subject many times.. as for the Tiara it belongs to him as head of the Spencer family. When he and Diana had a bitter row, he asked for it back.
@amabel Charles Spencer offered her a cottage on the estate then withdrew the offer as it would be an intrusion with security and media. However he had no problem with the intrusion of visitors paying to see his exhibits and a glimpse of her grave and selling trinkets after her death. Everyone knew the Spencer Tiara belongs to him as head of the family but again he took it back out of spite knowing how much she wore it and identified her as a Spencer. Interesting to note neither of his subsequent wives had or has worn the tiara when he married them.
I wonder if his each of his daughters will wear the tiara when they get married. Or the respective future brides of his two sons. I think Diana was annoyed because he made the offer of the cottage then withdrew it. If he had thought it out first before he made the offer at all it would have been better. If it was not feasible he should not have made her the offer in the first place.
William and Harry Find Tranquility at Their Mother's Resting Place, Says Diana's Brother: 'It's Their Time There'
Prince William and Prince Harry at Princess Diana's Resting Place (http://people.com/royals/william-and-harry-find-tranquility-at-their-mothers-resting-place/)
Quote from: Trudie on July 28, 2017, 04:17:10 PM
@amabel Charles Spencer offered her a cottage on the estate then withdrew the offer as it would be an intrusion with security and media. However he had no problem with the intrusion of visitors paying
Itwasn't a a cottage, it wa the garden house.. and he withdrew the offer due to security issues. he then offered her other houses, on the estate but Diana was angry and would not consider other ones. They ended up rowing and in the course of the Row he asked for the Tiara back
The other ones might not have been adequate.
Oh for goodness sake Sandy.. do you really think that Charles was going to offer her a tiny cottage that "wasn't adequate?" He impulsively problaby suggested the Garden house which is a beautiful house which Diana raelly wanted..> Then, because of security issues (Her PPOS felt that it was too close to the perimeter and would be a nightmare to police safely) he withdrew the offer. It was foolish of him, but Charles did offer her other places and she was the one who got in a temper and started a row over it.
Charles tried to defuse it by returning her angry letter unread, but she was not willing to compromise...
The interviews have had unintended consequences. The whole can of worms is now open with everyone coming out with their version. Perhaps the rededication memorial was the right way to go. The opening up to the media has awakened old ghosts which might yet haunt Diana's family. I would not be surprised if any moment Burrel releases a statement about the whole thing.
Quote from: amabel on July 30, 2017, 09:15:23 AM
Oh for goodness sake Sandy.. do you really think that Charles was going to offer her a tiny cottage that "wasn't adequate?" He impulsively problaby suggested the Garden house which is a beautiful house which Diana raelly wanted..> Then, because of security issues (Her PPOS felt that it was too close to the perimeter and would be a nightmare to police safely) he withdrew the offer. It was foolish of him, but Charles did offer her other places and she was the one who got in a temper and started a row over it.
Charles tried to defuse it by returning her angry letter unread, but she was not willing to compromise...
No way of knowing what those cottages were like, were they all the same? So why would you think they were all alike? Or the circumstances. Something kept DIana from taking them. What it is, perhaps Spencer will tell us one day. Perhaps not. It's like people looking for a house or apartment, the dwellings are examined and maybe Diana felt they were not right for her or had fewer rooms and so on. He should never offered her anything until he was absolutely sure. He offered it and then took it off the table.
What Kept Diana form taking them was a fit of temper and the fact that she didn't really IMO want to have a house in the country that badly.
Neither of us were "there" or know all motives. Diana did crave a more secluded spot a bolthole so to speak. In any case they eventually made up the spat.
if Diana was really keen on the idea of a house in Althorp there were other houses, more secure then the Garden House, and Charles was offering them to her. He tried to keep the row from escalating by refusing to read her letter. But He has a temper as she has and It did escalate and he said some unkind things to her.
but I think she wan't that pushed about a country house, except for the boys' sake and for having a place to spend holdiays or weekends away from the press. But the Garden house was NOT sutiable for this.
Not strictly on topic but I always felt that the divorce settlement was a bit of a dump squid although Diana tried to put a brave face on it. Had they had an amicable divorce, I think the royal family would not have been averse to either the HRH or even a country house. William and Harry were princes of the royal house and I am certain the queen would want them to stay in accommodation that suited their status. Unfortunately the people who advised Diana tried to go for the Hollywood divorce style which made the palace much less inclined to be generous. A total settlement of $50 million with a leased apartment is really peanuts to a man of Charles' means. He gets through that in a single year.
I doubt it. he had to borrow form the queen to pay Diana off. And no, I don't believe she would have been allowed to keep the HRH, nad its unlikely they would have bought her a country house.
Indeed, Charles did have to borrow the money. I think Diana got a generous settlement, getting to keep the apartments at KP and a generous monetary amount.
https://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/prince-charles-desperately-wanted-to-get-out-of-marrying-diana-felt-they-were-incompatible-book-claims
Doesn't sound like there's anything new.
'The Crown' has cast its Princess Diana - CNN (https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/09/entertainment/the-crown-princess-diana/index.html)
The video doesn't address this topic.
She looks nothing like DIana.
I hope Emma Corrin will do justice to her role as Diana. She's pretty with a nice complexion and eyes, that's something. Whether she has the height, hair, voice and charisma to play her successfully we'll soon find out, I guess. All the other actresses playing the part have been pretty ghastly IMO, especially with the rotten wigs they were given. And how The Crown will approach the C+C+D triangle is important as well.
^^^I'd forgotten about the awful wigs! :lol: I agree that her coloring and eye shape are very pretty. I wonder if they'll cut her hair or just try for a better wig?
Here is a thread to discuss the Morton book(s) and others about the late Diana, Princess of Wales.
Best is the Bradford book.
Some of the best selling books about the late Princess of Wales and a few about her former husband and sons.
The Best Books About Princess Diana and Her Boys | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/royals/the-best-books-about-princess-diana-and-her-boys/?slide=5811002#5811002)
Quote from: sara8150 on June 27, 2017, 05:00:17 PM
'William pushed tissues under the door when Diana cried': Andrew Morton defends 'raking over the past' in his revised book - saying the Princes 'lived through' their mother's troubles daily
Morton defends impact Diana book might have on Princes | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-4643712/Andrew-Morton-defends-impact-book-Princes.html)
people who makes this sort of questions to morton should get over that diana was an 30-years-old exercising her free-will as outdated as monarchy is, britain wasnt and isnt north korea!
Quote from: sandy on August 27, 2019, 04:47:53 PM
Best is the Bradford book.
I used to think that too, but now i'm not so sure. I'm going to try to re read that book and compare it with others.
Compare it with what others? There' aren't that many serious biographies of Diana out there...
But there are many
One book just about Diana's charities; many picture books about the late Princess Diana; memorial issues of Time, Us and People about Diana; Bradford book; Tina Brown Book. Seward books; ANne Edwards book; Bedell Smith book; the reissue of Morton books and Morton's sequels to Her True Story; Burrell books; Wharfe Book; Jephson books; Simmons/Seward book; the book by the mother of a child that Diana was nanny to; and so on.
Quote from: amabel on September 01, 2019, 03:22:17 PM
Compare it with what others? There' aren't that many serious biographies of Diana out there...
Yes, like Sandy said in the comment above there are many. I am re considering Browns book. She writes things or rather interjects with her own opinion when the facts doesn't support her, IMO. However, that is easy to see if you read the book. But she does stand up for Diana on occasions and shows sympathy.
Bradford is bit more sly, IMO. She claims Diana had an affair with Hoare and they would travel to Turkey, if I remember correctly, and visit each other on yachts. Would Diana not be discovered if she went to Turkey and hanged about on yachts? She was easy to discover in '97 when she was on yacht vacation in France.
Another thing that I find hard to believe is her writing, according to a source, that prince Charles didn't know anything about it. Which I personally find extremly, extremly hard to believe. Who was her source? Was it Wharfe?
I think that in her book, now that I think about it, she reinforces some, shall we say, stereotypes, while giving her book a veneer of credibility/respectability. IMO.
In truth, Diana is not here to defend or refute anything that's said or written about her. Nor does she have an archive with any statments etc. as other historical figues tend to have (if they live long enough that is). Diana's at a disadvantage in that sense, and i'm not so sure Bradford did her justice.
I wonder if Brown isn't slightly better in some aspects. But I have to re read both to make a more thorough comparison.
Bradford did not out and out say there was a physical affair since Diana and HOare never confessed to one and they are both dead now. Bradford in an interview said she started out being sympathetic to Charles but that changed once she did her research and she did point out things that Charles did and said, She cited how Charles told Dimbleby he preferred his mistress when he married DIana and Bradford wondered why he would marry a besotted Diana knowing he preferred someone else. She also told the story by Jephson where he witnessed a verbal put down by Charles.
Hoare was not the wealthy one it his marriage So I am not sure he would have the luxury to be on a yacht.
Brown I think is worse she ignores first hand accounts like Frances' to spin it. Frances said she had a hands off attitude with Diana and did not voice her concerns about her marrying Charles. Brown uses a friend of a friend to say Frances did try. I believe Frances. She also contradicts herself when she first said Diana and Charles had sex onthe Royal train (most others say it was Camilla who was there, DIana was seen elsewhere, then says Charles was disappointed with his wedding night with DIana. How could he be disappointed if he already had a preview. Brown has no references and she does rely on sensationalism.
Yes, Brown does not accept, imo, facts if they're not to her "liking". I think she didn't believe that Diana and Mannakee never had an affair, if I remember correctly.
This is what Bradford writes:
"On the other side of the coin, Hoare's turkish contacts provided him with safe houses, and even a yacht, where he could carry on his romance with Diana" page 240, Sarah Bradford
To me the implication is very clear. Either Bradford has gotten info that's wrong or they were actually lovers.
And she goes on to write what Wharfe said about how he found Hoare disheveled, and how much Diana and Hoare loved each other.
If any of this is true it means that she was traveling to another country just to continue a physical relationship with a married man, which is low and distasteful, in my opinion. Regardless of the state of the marriage of the Hoares.
@oak_and_cedar - This NY Times review of Sally Bedell-Smith's biography Diana In Search of Herself does contain an excerpt if you want to read it.
Diana in Search of Herself (http://movies2.nytimes.com/books/first/s/smith-diana.html)
She does not say they had sex or were intimate. I think she had to be careful since Hoare and Diana were still alive. SHe just said Romance. Mrs Hoare was the wealthy one in the marriage. I don't think the exact nature of the relationship (were they really in love?) went to the respective graves of Hoare and Diana. Hoare had a bad habit of comforting unhappy women. He was involved with another women pre Diana whose husband cheated on her and had a child with another woman. Diana was way to vulnerable and should have steered clear of Hoare. Jephson wrote he did not know the "nature of the relationship" between Hoare and Diana.
From what I read, Diana and Hoare met up in the UK I read of no "assignations" on a yacht. Morton said Hoare moved out of the home with his wife and Diana did not move in with him, she had some misgiving.s
I think Hoare the married man who comforted unhappily married women had a lot to answer for. He is no saint by any means.
But both are dead now and neither made any sort of confession.
Bedell Smith I don't like because she "diagnosed" Diana as having Borderline Personality Disorder and blamed her for everything. I think that is not a nice thing to do especially since her subject could not defend herself.
I have an excerpt of Hoare's relationship with another married woman:
Quote"On the other side of the coin, Hoare's turkish contacts provided him with safe houses, and even a yacht, where he could carry on his romance with Diana" page 240, Sarah Bradford
To me the implication is very clear. Either Bradford has gotten info that's wrong or they were actually lovers.
And she goes on to write what Wharfe said about how he found Hoare disheveled, and how much Diana and Hoare loved each other.
If any of this is true it means that she was traveling to another country just to continue a physical relationship with a married man, which is low and distasteful, in my opinion. Regardless of the state of the marriage of the Hoares.
Wow. I thought that Diana and Oliver just stayed in London during their affair? :o However neither are here to confirm/deny and I doubt Hoare's widow is going to say anything.
Oliver on the Spot | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/archive/oliver-on-the-spot-vol-42-no-13/)
Hoare's affair with Mrs Nadir (above).
Most writers say they did confine the relationship to London. The yacht story might have been a fantasy that one or the other may have had.
Quote from: sandy on September 01, 2019, 08:23:33 PM
She does not say they had sex or were intimate. I think she had to be careful since Hoare and Diana were still alive. SHe just said Romance. Mrs Hoare was the wealthy one in the marriage. I don't think the exact nature of the relationship (were they really in love?) went to the respective graves of Hoare and Diana. Hoare had a bad habit of comforting unhappy women. He was involved with another women pre Diana whose husband cheated on her and had a child with another woman. Diana was way to vulnerable and should have steered clear of Hoare. Jephson wrote he did not know the "nature of the relationship" between Hoare and Diana.
From what I read, Diana and Hoare met up in the UK I read of no "assignations" on a yacht. Morton said Hoare moved out of the home with his wife and Diana did not move in with him, she had some misgiving.s
I think Hoare the married man who comforted unhappily married women had a lot to answer for. He is no saint by any means.
But both are dead now and neither made any sort of confession.
Bedell Smith I don't like because she "diagnosed" Diana as having Borderline Personality Disorder and blamed her for everything. I think that is not a nice thing to do especially since her subject could not defend herself.
I have an excerpt of Hoare's relationship with another married woman:
I agree entirely about Hoares character. He saw that Diana was vulnerable and went to action, IMO. She was going through a very difficult time and he offered to "help" her.
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the book came out in 2007 so only Hoare was alive.
To me the implication of that quote is that they did indeed have an affair. And she goes on to quote Wharfe about that incident with Hoare smoking, and other "sources" about how much they both loved each other.
It becomes complicated to intrepret it in another way and it paints Diana in a not so flattering light to say the least.
So if the yacht and abroad thing is not true, why did she write it? And if it's true it's very damning.
I'm not so sure about Bradford is what i'm trying to say. I'll have to re read the book.
Double post auto-merged: September 01, 2019, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: sandy on September 01, 2019, 08:31:11 PM
Oliver on the Spot | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/archive/oliver-on-the-spot-vol-42-no-13/)
Hoare's affair with Mrs Nadir (above).
Most writers say they did confine the relationship to London. The yacht story might have been a fantasy that one or the other may have had.
So that would be irresponsible to put into print and used as fact, IMO. And unfair on Diana.
Amazon.com: The Diana Chronicles eBook: Tina Brown: Kindle Store (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000SCHAJY/ref=dp-kindle-redirect?_encoding=UTF8&btkr=1)
@oak_and_cedar - You're correct. Brown's book was released in 2007 so only Oliver was alive at the time of publication.
That's right. I am mixing it up with some other stories that came out when both were still alive.
They could never out and out say they had sex. They were not in the room with them and neither Diana or Hoare confessed.
Diana tended to have fantasies about her romances. There were no reports about them meeting on a yacht or pictures of them together on a yacht.
Bradford had sympathy for Diana overall. She was not kind to CHarles or Camilla.
Quote from: sandy on September 01, 2019, 08:35:59 PM
Diana tended to have fantasies about her romances. There were no reports about them meeting on a yacht or pictures of them together on a yacht.
Bradford had sympathy for Diana overall. She was not kind to CHarles or Camilla.
Yes, this is what I mean. How could Diana not have been found out if she went on a yacht? One only has to look at how she was hounded when she was on vacation with the Fayeds.
Has anyone read this book?
It's by Tom Sancton I believe. Is it any good or is it just sensationalist? Am a bit on the fence about it.
It is an excellent book. It is matter of fact and he was interviewed on one of the specials about the Life of Diana.
I think i'll give it a chance. Thank you.
Quote from: TLLK on September 01, 2019, 08:24:39 PM
Wow. I thought that Diana and Oliver just stayed in London during their affair? :o However neither are here to confirm/deny and I doubt Hoare's widow is going to say anything.
Doesn't mean they didn't take a few breaks together. Diana was quite good at keeping things secret in some ways.. and then she would lose her head. I think the affair mainly took place in London in KP and probably OH had some little flat of his own.. but he likely traveled a bit for his work and had contacts who could lend him places abroad.
Double post auto-merged: September 02, 2019, 07:52:06 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 01, 2019, 08:38:54 PM
Yes, this is what I mean. How could Diana not have been found out if she went on a yacht? One only has to look at how she was hounded when she was on vacation with the Fayeds.
Because she made a very public show of being on holiday with Fayed. And Moh AL Fayed was eager to show off that he had got Diana and her sons on holiday with him. Diana managed often to keep her relationships secret.. but she was keen to show off her affair with Dodi. There was gossip about her flirting with Hewitt, but if he had not talked about the affair, she might have gotten away without its ever getting out.
Double post auto-merged: September 02, 2019, 11:12:02 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 01, 2019, 03:28:46 PM
But there are many
One book just about Diana's charities; many picture books about the late Princess Diana; memorial issues of Time, Us and People about Diana; Bradford book; Tina Brown Book. Seward books; ANne Edwards book; Bedell Smith book; the reissue of Morton books and Morton's sequels to Her True Story; Burrell books; Wharfe Book; Jephson books; Simmons/Seward book; the book by the mother of a child that Diana was nanny to; and so on.
serius biographies? I don't think so
The books about DIana talk about their meeting in London. Most of the time he was home living with his family and there was a brief window where he moved out. I doubt they met on a yacht. Her going to see another man in a yacht would not have been a great idea. She was still married to Charles and it might have put access to her sons in jeopardy. ANd the other man was married with children. I doubt this happened though DIana had fantasies about romantic trips and so forth. Dodi was single and DIana was single when they met on the yacht a whole different story.
Books about diana nonetheless
Dodi was technically single.. but he was living with a woman who thought they were engaged to be married...
As for Diana.. She did a lot of things that were not very wise. As I recall Wharfe said that she jumped out of a hotel window to get out of the hotel without his knowing.. and the odds seem to be that she was going to meet a lover.. (I can't remember but I presume that at the time it was Hoare)...
Quote from: sandy on September 02, 2019, 12:40:38 PM
HE had broken off with the other woman at the behest of his father. He was not engaged to her and told Kelly they were through over the phone. Kelly said this and never blamed DIana. Dodi probably told Diana he had broken up with Kelly. Odds seem she was meeting a lover? Because she jumped out a window> I think that's a bit of a stretch. Why must DIana jump out a window because she wanted Sex? It is all innuendo and there is no proof. Wharfe had to spice up the book apparently. This was on a ski trip and there was no record of Hoare being there. Hoare and DIana never talked of the nature of their relationship and both are dead now. If she wanted to meet Hoare she could always ring him up and have him go to KP without hopping out of a window.
According to some reports, no, Dodi didn't break up with Kelly. He tried to keep her on the side, and it was only MAF telling her brutally that the relationship was over that finished it officially. Kelly thougth they were engaged and they were due to get married in early August...
As for Diana and Hoare, I don't know what you mean by "if she wanted to meet Hoare she could always ring him up and have him go to KP without hopping out of a window.". She was on Holiday in Switzlerand so it would be rather a long way to go. As you know.. this jump out of a window happened at a hotel in some skiing resort.
Quote from: sandy on September 02, 2019, 12:51:54 PM
Kelly Fisher clearly stated what happened. Dodi told her they were through and his father made an angry phone call to her. She gave her testimony in the Inquest. He was done with Kelly when he courted DIana he just left Kelly and then told her they were through over the phone. His father told himi no uncertain terms to break up with Kelly. Dodi told Kelly they were done
Dodi told Kelly they broke up over the phone. So he did tell her.
Dodi's ex-fianc?e tells inquest of 'betrayal' - Telegraph (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1572509/Dodis-ex-fiancee-tells-inquest-of-betrayal.html)
THats not what I got from her testimony. She says that Dodi would nto take her calls..and it was his father who told her it was over and she was not to call Dodi again. She only got hold of him After she had been brutally told by MAF that the affair was over.. and Dodi tehn told Kelly F that "they had broken up 2 months ago"... which she clelary feels was not the case.
It is clear that Kelly thougt they were getting married.. or at least in a serious relationship.. She saw that Dodi was now off visiting his father's yacht and being seen with Diana. Dodi refused to take her calls and would not speak to her.. didn't have the nerve to tell her that te relationship was over..
SHe then got a " Brutal" call from MAF telling her it was definitely over and she was not to call Dodi again.. but eventually she managed to get to tlak to him..and he tried to pretend that he had broken up with her 2 months earlier. Which gibes with what I've heard said by Dodi's bodyguards,... that "Kelly was out of the loop" and did not know what was going on...So it was harldy "true love" on his part for Diana when he was clearly being puhsed by his father to court her and to give up his livein girlfriend...
Dodi told her they had broken up over the phone she said they didnot. that's in the testimony. His father made it clear she and Dodi were over. DOdi apparently broke up with her. Dodi considered them over and most likely told Diana he was not engaged to Kelly. Kelly most likely got the picture which is why she brought in a lawyer to help her. Had Dodi not died, she probably would have gotten an out of court settlement from the Fayeds. With Dodi dead, she and her lawyer did not pursue the matter. Dodi did not hop between locations of where Kelly was and where DIana was. He ghosted Kelly at his father's behest. He was not as far as he was concerned still engaged when he pursued DIana. How DIana and Dodi felt about each other is subject to speculation since both are dead. Dodi listened to his father. He did not have to. Dodi and DIana got involved on the next cruise (since Fayed's and DIana's children were present on the first cruise, it was DIana's time to vacation with Will and Harry). In no way did Diana get blamed by Kelly
Quote from: sandy on September 02, 2019, 02:59:02 PM
Dodi told her they had broken up over the phone she said they didnot. that's in the testimony. His father made it clear she and Dodi were over. DOdi apparently broke up with her. Dodi considered them over and most likely told Diana he was not engaged to Kelly. Kelly most likely got the picture which is why she brought in a lawyer to help her. Had Dodi not died, she probably would have gotten an out of court settlement from the Fayeds. With Dodi dead, she and her lawyer did not pursue the matter. Dodi did not hop between locations of where Kelly was and where DIana was. He ghosted Kelly at his father's behest. He was not as far as he was concerned still engaged when he pursued DIana. How DIana and Dodi felt about each other is subject to speculation since both are dead. Dodi listened to his father. He did not have to. Dodi and DIana got involved on the next cruise (since Fayed's and DIana's children were present on the first cruise, it was DIana's time to vacation with Will and Harry). In no way did Diana get blamed by Kelly
Sandy that is not what Kelly F says. She says that Dodi did NOT break up with her. It was his father who broke up with her and told her not to contact Dodi. Clearly Dodi didn't have the nerve to do it himself or he wanted to keep her on tap and not finish off the relationship. Kelly did consider herself engaged to him and they were living together. It was news to her that Dodi had moved on to another woman.. She says that he did not break up with her.. that his father told her to leave Dodi alone and that Dodi then weakly tried to say that they had already broken up. So dodi was not single when he started courting Diana.
She did not hear from Dodi and could not reach him. That speaks volumes. He did not want to be reached. His father also made it clear to her that she and Dodi were over. Then Dodi told her they had broken up and she disagreed. This is what she said in the inquest. And her story. Obviously he had ghosted her. His not saying anything to her and avoiding her was his way of ditching her. She may considered herself engaged but he was not since it takes two willing people to have an engagement. she wanted to collect money for breach of promise.
Dodi was single amabel, he was avoiding Kelly. ANd Dodi made it clear. If you want to make diana seem she was seeing someone engaged suit yourself. Kelly never blamed DIana. Dodi to himself and his father was a free man and presented himself to DIana that way. Since Diana's father was friends with Muhammed and she knew him for years, she probably believed Dodi and Mohammed.
It seems DIana must be the "bad person" in every regard.
Quote from: sandy on September 02, 2019, 03:13:17 PM
She did not hear from Dodi and could not reach him. That speaks volumes. He did not want to be reached. His father also made it clear to her that she and Dodi were over. Then Dodi told her they had broken up and she disagreed. This is what she said in the inquest. And her story. Obviously he had ghosted her. His not saying anything to her and avoiding her was his way of ditching her. She may considered herself engaged but he was not since it takes two willing people to have an engagement. she wanted to collect money for breach of promise.
Dodi was single amabel, he was avoiding Kelly. ANd Dodi made it clear. If you want to make diana seem she was seeing someone engaged suit yourself. Kelly never blamed DIana. Dodi to himself and his father was a free man and presented himself to DIana that way. Since Diana's father was friends with Muhammed and she knew him for years, she probably believed Dodi and Mohammed.
It seems DIana must be the "bad person" in every regard.
it did not alter the fact that Dodi did not have the decency to go to his girifriend and say to her that he had to break things off as he was now expected to pay court to another woman.....Its OK is it for him to "ghost " a woman and not have common good manners and guts to tell her that their relationship and marriage were now off? Generally people who are engaged do not go off and start dating anoter woman without breaking off with the engaged fianc?e...
Dodi presented himself to DIana as a free man. He in his own mind thought it was over because he avoided contact with her. His father did the dirty work over the phone with Kelly. Then Dodi said he thought they were already broken up.
I did not say any of this was "OK" I am refuting your implication that DIana was seeing an "engaged man." He stopped seeing Kelly.
He did not consider himself engaged. Kelly was launching a breach of promise suit which she would not need to do if she were "engaged."
Quote from: amabel on September 02, 2019, 07:08:44 AM
Doesn't mean they didn't take a few breaks together. Diana was quite good at keeping things secret in some ways.. and then she would lose her head. I think the affair mainly took place in London in KP and probably OH had some little flat of his own.. but he likely traveled a bit for his work and had contacts who could lend him places abroad.
Double post auto-merged: September 02, 2019, 07:52:06 AM
Because she made a very public show of being on holiday with Fayed. And Moh AL Fayed was eager to show off that he had got Diana and her sons on holiday with him. Diana managed often to keep her relationships secret.. but she was keen to show off her affair with Dodi. There was gossip about her flirting with Hewitt, but if he had not talked about the affair, she might have gotten away without its ever getting out.
She didn't lose her head. She was in great distress and was encouraged to seek support by someone who had less than honorable intentions, IMO.
The thing is, Diana was the main attraction for the press. She could have gone anywhere and the press would have followed. And that was what happened. So the one constant was Diana, and if she frequently took trips abroad to meet Hoare she would have been found out and photographed sooner or later.
I don't think that she was keen to show off her affair with Fayed. She was a single woman enjoying a romance. She didn't flaunt nor hide it. She lived with the press intrusion and decided not to let it affect her life.
Diana wanted to keep the affair with Hewitt a secret because she was under a difficult situation and basically was committing adultery. Both her and Fayed had no respective others. Fayed, I think, left Fischer earlier. So, the scenario was different, IMO.
Dodi did not leave Kelly earlier. She believed that they were engaged in July and they were apparently planning to marry in August. At that stage, MAF sent for Dodi to start paying attention to Diana. He didn't break it off with his girlfriend.. he went to start courting Diana.. and probably didn't want to finally make a break with Kelly.. until his father insisted and "brutally" told Kelly that it was over and that she should not contact his son again. When the girl finally did get to talk to him he feebly made out that "they had broken it off earlier".
Diana made it very clear that she was involved with Dodi.. it was the first romance she had had that she made public. She let herself be seen kissing him.. She went to the press boat and told them "they would get a big surprise with the next thing she did".. which was a red light to them that she was up to something..and she cuodl hardly then complain about press intrusion when she teased them and told them to expect a "big surprise."
Double post auto-merged: September 03, 2019, 07:08:32 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 02, 2019, 03:22:29 PM
Dodi presented himself to DIana as a free man. He in his own mind thought it was over because he avoided contact with her. His father did the dirty work over the phone with Kelly. Then Dodi said he thought they were already broken up.
I did not say any of this was "OK" I am refuting your implication that DIana was seeing an "engaged man." He stopped seeing Kelly.
He did not consider himself engaged. Kelly was launching a breach of promise suit which she would not need to do if she were "engaged."
Yes he was an engaged man and Yes she would have had to be engaged in order to launch a breach of promise suit. If she and Dodi were not engaged and planning to marry, she would have no case. If Dodi felt he no longer wanted to marry Kelly, the decent thing to do would have bene to go and see her and tell her it was all off. Instead he hid in a cowardly fashion...
He did not consider himself engaged. He left her and her father made it clear she she was not engaged to Dodi and Dodi said they had broken up. She was not engaged when she went to Gloria Allred because if she were there would be no case. It apparently was a breach of promise suit. Diana's first visit to the Fayed yacht there was no 'romance' with Dodi, her children were with her and Dodi joined the yacht later with Mohammed Fayed and his wife and younger child. Later on after Dodi had left Kelly he and Diana got involved. Dodi did not consider himself engaged to her and even told Kelly (she said so) they were done. It takes two willing parties to be engaged. Dodi was not engaged to her. Dodi did not flit between Kelly and Diana. That did not happen. His father told him to stop seeing Kelly and he did. Diana probably had no surprise she was teasing the press. I don't get the insistence that Dodi was engaged. He ditched her, she wanted a settlement and certainly could not do it if they were "engaged."
Quote from: amabel on September 03, 2019, 06:43:33 AM
Dodi did not leave Kelly earlier. She believed that they were engaged in July and they were apparently planning to marry in August. At that stage, MAF sent for Dodi to start paying attention to Diana. He didn't break it off with his girlfriend.. he went to start courting Diana.. and probably didn't want to finally make a break with Kelly.. until his father insisted and "brutally" told Kelly that it was over and that she should not contact his son again. When the girl finally did get to talk to him he feebly made out that "they had broken it off earlier".
Diana made it very clear that she was involved with Dodi.. it was the first romance she had had that she made public. She let herself be seen kissing him.. She went to the press boat and told them "they would get a big surprise with the next thing she did".. which was a red light to them that she was up to something..and she cuodl hardly then complain about press intrusion when she teased them and told them to expect a "big surprise."
If I recall correctly Kelly said that she could not reach her boyfriend, i.e. he did not want to be reached. In other words, he left her, abruptly, but he left her nonetheless. It's clear that Fayed had set his sight on Diana and was only too pleased when his father recommended leaving Kelly, in my opinion. Now, one could argue whether it was fair to leave his girlfriend this way. I personally do not think so. However, this should not be pinned on Diana, as she was probably only told that they were over. Who is she going to believe? An ex-girlfriend or people she's known for years.
Diana was single and started seeing someone. So she kissed her partner. In a relationship it?s normal to display physical affection. And good on Diana for not settling on secret romances and hidden moments. I think it was brave of her to move on. Besides that, she was the most photographed woman alive, and anything she would have done, that was normal to do, could be twisted to "attention seeking" she could not have, and should have stopped living her life.
The press harassed her, IMO. So she teased them a little. Why should that be considered a "red light to them" and a permission to carry on harassing. Look at the doc. with PW and PH where they spoke about what the photogs did and said to her. Way out of line. So if she wanted to poke fun at them, she was entitled to it. IMO.
Decidedly not pinned on Diana IMO. Diana's father was friends with MAF so naturally she would believe Dodi and Kelly were over.
Dodi was not married to Kelly and he told her over the phone he had considered them broken up. He did not run from one woman to the other. Kelly had Dodi lived would probably have gotten a settlement out of court. But when Dodi died, she moved on. She was very angry with the Fayeds but never ever blamed Diana.
Diana was fed up with the press they screamed obscenities at her when she refused to pose for pictures. Her teasing them with her alleged surprise is mild in comparison.
I think if he wanted to court Diana he had to focus all his attention on her. Besides, keeping Kelly was risky because of the press interest. He would have been photographed and found out sooner or later. Diana would have then dumped him, in all likelihood.
Prince William said that there were many photographers who chased her and spat at her amongst other things. Absolutely disgusting.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 03, 2019, 02:08:00 PM
I think if he wanted to court Diana he had to focus all his attention on her. Besides, keeping Kelly was risky because of the press interest. He would have been photographed and found out sooner or later. Diana would have then dumped him, in all likelihood.
Prince William said that there were many photographers who chased her and spat at her amongst other things. Absolutely disgusting.
Diana didn't dump him. his relationship with Kelly was known, and the fact that he had been living with her, in a serious relationship and she was engaged to him.. and that he hadn't even had the decenty to go and see her and break it off properly like a man.. Yet Diana did not dump him
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Quote from: sandy on September 03, 2019, 02:02:13 PM
Decidedly not pinned on Diana IMO. Diana's father was friends with MAF so naturally she would believe Dodi and Kelly were over.
Dodi was not married to Kelly and he told her over the phone he had considered them broken up. He did not run from one woman to the other. Kelly had Dodi lived would probably have gotten a settlement out of court. But when Dodi died, she moved on. She was very angry with the Fayeds but never ever blamed Diana.
Diana was fed up with the press they screamed obscenities at her when she refused to pose for pictures. Her teasing them with her alleged surprise is mild in comparison.
So if the press were so horrible to her, why put herself in their way? There was no need to go and speak to them.. esp to make a provocative remark of that nature. Once she had done that, she could harldy claim that she was miserable at their attention and tatht they "made her life hell"...
Double post auto-merged: September 03, 2019, 02:48:55 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 03, 2019, 01:59:22 PM
If I recall correctly Kelly said that she could not reach her boyfriend, i.e. he did not w
Diana was single and started seeing someone. So she kissed her partner. In a relationship it?s normal to display physical affection. And good on Diana for not settling on secret romances and hidden moments. I think it was brave of her to move on. Besides that, she was the most photographed woman alive, and anything she would have done, that was normal to do, could be twisted to "attention seeking" she could not have, and should have stopped living her life.
Td to it. IMO.
Diana had settled for secret romances in thte past.. so why make such a public display of this one? To a man who was at best an aimless playboy.. and at worst, a man who had never stayed at a job, who didn't pay his bills, who was involved wth a young woman he was planning to marry and now did not even have the courtesy to break off with properly? What was so great about Dodi that she wanted to show the world she was kissing him? Why go to the press and tease them and make them all eager to follow her again to see what she was going to get up to next? DId this behaviour not mean that the press men were now going to follow her everywhere with Dodi to see if she was now about to get engaged? Having made such remarks to them... how could she claim that she hated the press, that they made her life a misery and she wanted a private life?
Diana was divorced she was moving on. She supposedly was upset with Khan for not being seen in public with her. Maybe she just liked it that she could openly date someone. She did not have to marry Dodi, she could date him and I doubt she wanted to quickly rush into another marriage. She was only divorced One Year.
I doubt there was an engagement to be announced. It was all teasing. She's dead now and what she meant went with her to her grave.
Teasing the press is a foolish game. As they said, diana "invaded her own privacy", by colluding with the press, then complained that they made her so unappy and tormented her.
They did torment her. She did not tell them to scream obscene comments about her. I am not getting your comment. She did not "ask for it" any more than a woman "asks for being abused."
She made a throwaway comment to them
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 01, 2019, 03:46:40 PM
Yes, like Sandy said in the comment above there are many. I am re considering Browns book. She writes things or rather interjects with her own opinion when the facts doesn't support her, IMO. However, that is easy to see if you read the book. But she does stand up for Diana on occasions and shows sympathy.
Bradford is bit more sly, IMO. She claims Diana had an affair with Hoare and they would travel to Turkey, if I remember correctly, and visit each other on yachts. Would Diana not be discovered if she went to Turkey and hanged about on yachts? She was easy to discover in '97 when she was on yacht vacation in France.
it's his chauffeur barry hodge who said that, he sold their story to now late News of the World tabloid (this story was mentioned in that article) in 1995 after that hoare break up with diana because she wanted him leaving his home for good, according to their mutual friend elsa bowker
and turkey is very different of south france or italy and spain during summer... turky wasnt and isnt considered a papazzi place... hide in those other countries during the summer is far more difficult if not impossible
Quote from: dianab on September 03, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
it's his chauffeur barry hodge who said that, he sold their story to now late News of the World tabloid (this story was mentioned in that article) in 1995 after that hoare break up with diana because she wanted him leaving his home for good, according to their mutual friend elsa bowker
and turkey is very different of south france or italy and spain during summer... turky wasnt and isnt considered a papazzi place... hide in those other countries during the summer is far more difficult if not impossible
His chauffeur didn't partake in every conversation Diana had with Hoare. For all we know Hoare might have fed him that information after Diana became wise to his tricks and left him (ego and that sort of thing.)
If Diana was horrified about Hewitt cooperating with an author why would she want Hoare to divorce his wife, leave his Children and start with her? Why did she call him "spineless" after the episode came out in the news? If he really cared for her why didn't he deny any wrong doing? Especially after it became known that a prank caller made many of those calls? Why did she move on so quickly to Khan?
It's not about the location. It's about the person. Diana was the most famous person in the entire world. If she had been visiting airports frequently there would be MANY people willing to sell her out, and she would have been found out quickly.
I don't trust Bowker.
Double post auto-merged: September 03, 2019, 06:08:30 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 03, 2019, 02:21:21 PM
Diana didn't dump him. his relationship with Kelly was known, and the fact that he had been living with her, in a serious relationship and she was engaged to him.. and that he hadn't even had the decenty to go and see her and break it off properly like a man.. Yet Diana did not dump him
Diana had settled for secret romances in thte past.. so why make such a public display of this one? To a man who was at best an aimless playboy.. and at worst, a man who had never stayed at a job, who didn't pay his bills, who was involved wth a young woman he was planning to marry and now did not even have the courtesy to break off with properly? What was so great about Dodi that she wanted to show the world she was kissing him? Why go to the press and tease them and make them all eager to follow her again to see what she was going to get up to next? DId this behaviour not mean that the press men were now going to follow her everywhere with Dodi to see if she was now about to get engaged? Having made such remarks to them... how could she claim that she hated the press, that they made her life a misery and she wanted a private life?
His relationship with Kelly became known after Kelly Went to Gloria Alred. Before that, he had "ghosted" her, unbeknownst to her probably. By then he had likely initiated a relationship with Diana and told her that him and Kelly had broken up. It's not illogical for Diana to Believe a family friend over some ex.
Diana settled with secret romances because she had to. She was committing adultery with Hewitt. Khan did not want to be seen with her so she moved on.
Diana probably saw other qualities to Fayed that attracted her to him. And she was a single woman enjoying a romance. Why would that be odd? She happened to be famous and had photographer following her. Other than that she tried to live her life.
She was just pulling their leg. She in all likelyhood would not have married Fayed. IMO.
Quote from: dianab on September 03, 2019, 04:41:38 PM
it's his chauffeur barry hodge who said that, he sold their story to now late News of the World tabloid (this story was mentioned in that article) in 1995 after that hoare break up with diana because she wanted him leaving his home for good, according to their mutual friend elsa bowker
and turkey is very different of south france or italy and spain during summer... turky wasnt and isnt considered a papazzi place... hide in those other countries during the summer is far more difficult if not impossible
Morton tells a different story in his book Diana in the Pursuit of Love. Hoare did move out. Diana made no effort to get closer to him and spend time with him in his new place. If she were so avid for him this would have been very welcome news.
Diana I doubt would risk all and lose custody of the boys if she started living with Hoare in his new place. And he had children also. Diana was according to Morton ambivalent about Hoare.
She did not exactly grieve for Hoare and moved on.
She also called him a number of other not so nice things via Kay. Doesn't sound like a woman in love. She didn't even do that to Hewitt! About Hewitt she only said that she was let down. Yikes.
sha had richard kay calling hasnat khan names too... just saying
btw i dont think anything diana told kay is worth at all... i've same opinion about what penny junor, ingrid seward when obiviously doing charles pr... when morton came out she had kay writing/saying unkind comments about carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey... just saying... then carolyn's husband had diana getting her act together
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 12:15:58 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 03, 2019, 06:01:38 PM
His chauffeur didn't partake in every conversation Diana had with Hoare. For all we know Hoare might have fed him that information after Diana became wise to his tricks and left him (ego and that sort of thing.)
If Diana was horrified about Hewitt cooperating with an author why would she want Hoare to divorce his wife, leave his Children and start with her? Why did she call him "spineless" after the episode came out in the news? If he really cared for her why didn't he deny any wrong doing? Especially after it became known that a prank caller made many of those calls? Why did she move on so quickly to Khan?
her break up with hoare was in feb or march 1995... she dated khan in september 1995... i dont think it's quickly move on... she sure move on quick after khan probably she already was falling out of love with him for some time... people around her as well as her actions says she was madly in love with hoare... when got involved with that book, to me it's obvious she wanted leave the windsors behind and make a new life with a man loved her...
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 12:22:30 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 03, 2019, 06:09:36 PM
Morton tells a different story in his book Diana in the Pursuit of Love. Hoare did move out. Diana made no effort to get closer to him and spend time with him in his new place. If she were so avid for him this would have been very welcome news.
Diana I doubt would risk all and lose custody of the boys if she started living with Hoare in his new place. And he had children also. Diana was according to Morton ambivalent about Hoare.
She did not exactly grieve for Hoare and moved on.
i read that book... morton dont mention any sources... interesting in this case it can to be accepted... nor morton explain the reasons for 300 phomecalls that happened after he was back to his home... dont looks like she was uninterested to me
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 12:09:29 AM
sha had richard kay calling hasnat khan names too... just saying
btw i dont think anything diana told kay is worth at all... i've same opinion about what penny junor, ingrid seward when obiviously doing charles pr... when morton came out she had kay writing/saying unkind comments about carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey... just saying... then carolyn's husband had diana getting her act together
her break up with hoare was in feb or march 1995... she dated khan in september 1995... i dont think it's quickly move on... she sure move on quick after khan probably she already was falling out of love with him for some time... people around her as well as her actions says she was madly in love with hoare... when got involved with that book, to me it's obvious she wanted leave the windsors behind and make a new life with a man loved her...
Dianab, in what article did Kay write things about Khan? This is a geniune question.
No person tell a journalist everthing I agree.
I've not read the Morton book yet. However, sometimes friends argue or disagree and it's not the same as writing that your love interest is "spineless".
I personally believe that Diana developed a dependency on Hoare because of him ingratiating himself to her and encouraging her to do this. Because he wanted one thing from Diana. Look at his previous actions. He sought out married women in distress who had problems in their marriage, IMO. That means he know who to "target" IMO. If that doesn't give you shivers, I don't know what will. If he had really "clean" intentions, and if he loved Diana, he would have denied or given some statement when the phone scandal came out. Instead he hid and let Diana take all the heat, IMO.
Look at their actions. Hoare moved out of his home. This was Diana's perfect chance. If she was so angry and upset with him that he didn't leave his wife for her, why didn't she seize this moment and get together with him?
Instead she was on her own and then moved on to Khan as you say.
I personally believe that when Hoare moved out of his home, it showed that he was more "serious" about Diana than she about him. She probably realised what his mindset was, and that this was perhaps not what she wanted.
The proof is in the pudding and the outcome speaks for itself. Diana did not move on with Hoare when she could have, she was on her own and then moved on to someone else.
I think that she saw right through him after a while and decided to move on.
No self respecting woman or individual would ever want to be with someone who runs and hide when it gets tough, and lets you take all the heat.
Sorry, but to me, the guy was a loser, and I base this on his own actions.
Diana participated in that Morton book because she had to defend herself against what "people" put out in the media against her. She was still in their circle after the book. It wasn't until the panorama interview that it became "serious".
Of course after the divorce she wanted to start a new life.
Quote from: sandy on September 03, 2019, 03:34:06 PM
They did torment her. She did not tell them to scream obscene comments about her. I am not getting your comment. She did not "ask for it" any more than a woman "asks for being abused."
She made a throwaway comment to them
Then why go up to people who are being so horribl to you, who insult you and engage in banter with them>?
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 07:05:05 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 03, 2019, 06:01:38 PM
His chauffeur didn't partake in every conversation Diana had with Hoare. For all we know Hoare might have fed him that information after Diana became wise to his tricks and left him (ego and that sort of thing.)
If Diana was horrified about Hewitt cooperating with an author why would she want Hoare t
I don't trust Bowker.
Double post auto-merged: September 03, 2019, 06:08:30 PM
His relationship with Kelly became known after Kelly Went to Gloria Alred. Before that, he had "ghosted" her, unbeknownst to her probably. By then he had likely initiated a relationship with Diana and told her that him and Kelly had broken up. It's not illogical for Diana to Believe a family friend over some ex.
Diana settled with secret romances because she had to. She was committing adultery with Hewitt. Khan did not want to be seen with her so she moved on.
Diana probably saw other qualities to Fayed that attracted her to him. And she was a single woman enjoying a romance. Why would that be odd? She happened to be famous and had photographer following her. Other than that she tried to live her life.
She was just pulling their leg. She in all likelyhood would not have married Fayed. IMO.
And look where puling their leg got her? It is hard to see what she saw in Dodi.. esp since after only a short romance, she seemed to be getting irritated by him.. by the messy badly arranged lifestyle, the conspicuous consumption, and the stories that were coming out about him.
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 06:42:50 AM
And look where puling their leg got her? It is hard to see what she saw in Dodi.. esp since after only a short romance, she seemed to be getting irritated by him.. by the messy badly arranged lifestyle, the conspicuous consumption, and the stories that were coming out about him.
It's not Diana's fault that the photographers were acting out of line and outrageously. They would have hounded her, and provoked her regardless of what she did. It simply wasn't her fault. I read Earl Spencer saying that Diana had told him about a photographer who said to her that he would hound her until her death and then would urinate on her grave. Absolutely horrid and depraved. No human should put up with this, and it shows that she dealt with people who were not all there mentally. So why should any blame be put on Diana? A victim must never be blamed for the perpetrators actions.
She must have seen something in order for her to be fond of him and start a relationship. If you are courting someone you show your good sides which is probably what he did. I think that she took the opportunity to move on from previous experiences, and enjoy life as a single woman. That does not mean however that she would have married him.
How irritated could she have been? She was initiating PDA with him as late as an hour before the crash. It's on video.
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 12:09:29 AM
sha had richard kay calling hasnat khan names too... just saying
btw i dont think anything diana told kay is worth at all... i've same opinion about what penny junor, ingrid seward when obiviously doing charles pr... when morton came out she had kay writing/saying unkind comments about carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey... just saying... then carolyn's husband had diana getting her act together
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 12:15:58 AM
her break up with hoare was in feb or march 1995... she dated khan in september 1995... i dont think it's quickly move on... she sure move on quick after khan probably she already was falling out of love with him for some time... people around her as well as her actions says she was madly in love with hoare... when got involved with that book, to me it's obvious she wanted leave the windsors behind and make a new life with a man loved her...
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 12:22:30 AM
i read that book... morton dont mention any sources... interesting in this case it can to be accepted... nor morton explain the reasons for 300 phomecalls that happened after he was back to his home... dont looks like she was uninterested to me
What business did Hoare have pursuing Diana and he did pursue her. She originally wanted advice about her marriage (probably like the other woman did).
The fact is Hoare did more out and Diana did not seize the moment and spend time with him at "his place." Or wanted a permanent future with him.
There is no proof Diana told Kay to call names.
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 01:19:45 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 06:42:50 AM
Then why go up to people who are being so horribl to you, who insult you and engage in banter with them>?
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 07:05:05 AM
And look where puling their leg got her? It is hard to see what she saw in Dodi.. esp since after only a short romance, she seemed to be getting irritated by him.. by the messy badly arranged lifestyle, the conspicuous consumption, and the stories that were coming out about him.
These may not have been the same people who yelled names at her. There are many press pack people. Besides which she rushed away and gave them that throwaway line.
I find it hard to see what she saw in Charles. She was too good for him. And he should not have married her if he did not love her.
Quote from: sandy on September 04, 2019, 03:28:53 PM
He gave up drugs. Diana was anti drug and would not have been with him had he been doing drugs--Diana was a person who was involved in healthy living and would not have wanted anything to do with him had he been showing any signs of drug use. Dodi's ex wife had nothing but good things to say about him. I say the man was ineffectual and his one act of rebellion against his father led to tragedy. I don't think he was a monster or a villain.
His father was not with Dodi and Dodi did not listen to his phone calls.
If Charles had married her for love and reciprocated her feelings I doubt she would have looked at another man. She was cut loose by Charles after she had the two children. Very sad.
but he must have listened to his father's phone calls how else did he get the message to go and pay court to Diana? Or to dithch his girlfriend?
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 04, 2019, 05:13:36 AM
Dianab, in what article did Kay write things about Khan? This is a geniune question.
in a 1995 or 1996 article he wrote denying a affair between them with diana's quotes/words
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 03:32:24 PM
but he must have listened to his father's phone calls how else did he get the message to go and pay court to Diana? Or to dithch his girlfriend?
His father probably told this to him in person as well. this is totally different matter than warning his son about leaving the Ritz.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 04, 2019, 05:13:36 AM
Look at their actions. Hoare moved out of his home. This was Diana's perfect chance. If she was so angry and upset with him that he didn't leave his wife for her, why didn't she seize this moment and get together with him?
Instead she was on her own and then moved on to Khan as you say.
I personally believe that when Hoare moved out of his home, it showed that he was more "serious" about Diana than she about him. She probably realised what his mindset was, and that this was perhaps not what she wanted.
The proof is in the pudding and the outcome speaks for itself. Diana did not move on with Hoare when she could have, she was on her own and then moved on to someone else.
it's been described in several books that diana stayed and slept with hoare in that flat...
Quote from: sandy on September 04, 2019, 03:37:37 PM
His father probably told this to him in person as well. this is totally different matter than warning his son about leaving the Ritz.
So kind of odd that the one time Dodi asserted himself he did something even more mega stupid....
It happened. And Dodi is in his grave now.
Quote from: sandy on September 04, 2019, 01:16:44 PM
What business did Hoare have pursuing Diana and he did pursue her. She originally wanted advice about her marriage (probably like the other woman did).
if you question "What business did Hoare have" you should question "What business did Diana have" too... i doubt she wanted advice on marriage... there was never named sources about as things started between them
QuoteThe fact is Hoare did more out and Diana did not seize the moment and spend time with him at "his place." Or wanted a permanent future with him.
from your posts i thought you read several diana's bios but your really missing stuff here... it's described in several as they were together when he left his home... elsa bowker herself described the ep led hoare to be back to his home...
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 03:34:49 PM
in a 1995 or 1996 article he wrote denying a affair between them with diana's quotes/words
As I recall she got Kay to deny an affair wth Khan because she didn't want it known at the time...
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 03:34:49 PM
in a 1995 or 1996 article he wrote denying a affair between them with diana's quotes/words
But that's rather different, because it was only a denial. She did not criticize, she wanted to keep her relationship hidden. I don't see where it can be called criticism. IMO.
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 03:38:17 PM
it's been described in several books that diana stayed and slept with hoare in that flat...
How do we know that they slept together? In what books is this written?
Her staying with him does not necessarily mean physical intimacy.
There are many things claimed in books which are not accurate.
kay described khan and a supposed affair between them with unkind words lets put in ths way
I think I know which article you are referring to. It was mentioned in biographies, such as the Brown book, I think.
In it she only said that it was a ridiculous rumor and that she laughed at the idea. It was to protect Khan. I don't see it as criticism because her intention was to protect the relationship.
iirc she described that as 'bullshit' or 'load of ***' or 'bollocks' and there was commentary about khan that was 'unkind'. it meant he wasnt the sort of person she'll want a relationship
in 1992 kay also bashed carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey...
I've not read the Morton book so I can't really comment on that.
However she said those things so as to throw people off the scent, so to speak.
She did not want people to know about the relationship just yet.
carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey were loyal friends to diana... and they (+her brother) just spoke to morton because diana asked... when the book come out, kay wrote in very disrespectful terms about them... both of them (carolyn and gilbey) were being chased by press... carolyn's husband really disliked this diana move and got her get her act together then happened those paparazzi pics that totally denied kay's article/opinion...
QuoteHowever she said those things so as to throw people off the scent, so to speak.
agree. but it's the same thing kay articles about hoare... she didnt want people thinking she was in love and obsessed with that man
Diana made a public show of support for Carolyn, showing up at her home and the cameras recorded their greeting each other. She only did this with Carolyn and Carolyn's direct quotes were in the Morton book. Diana was wanting to be careful that no evidence that she cooperated with Morton ever happened.
Diana unfortunately fell for Hoare's smooth talk, the woman who had a relationship with him in the eighties called Hoare "very charming." She was another unhappily married woman.
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 04:14:48 PM
agree. but it's the same thing kay articles about hoare... she didnt want people thinking she was in love and obsessed with that man
Not exactly the same thing IMO. She had begun or was in the middle of a relationship with Khan and wanted to protect him.
With Hoare it was at the end and she was accused of making harassing calls. She had Kay write those things and then moved on. So it was two different scenarios with two different reasons, imo.
Quote from: dianab on September 04, 2019, 04:07:11 PM
iirc she described that as 'bullshit' or 'load of ***' or 'bollocks' and there was commentary about khan that was 'unkind'. it meant he wasnt the sort of person she'll want a relationship
in 1992 kay also bashed carolyn bartholomew and james gilbey...
As I recall, Khan was rather hurt at the way she denied the relationship..
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 05:25:10 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 04, 2019, 03:49:04 PM
But that's rather different, because it was only a denial. She did not criticize, she wanted to keep her relationship hidden. I don't see where it can be called criticism. IMO.
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 03:50:26 PM
How do we know that they slept together? In what books is this written?
Her staying with him does not necessarily mean physical intimacy.
There are many things claimed in books which are not accurate.
what would she be staying with him for?
Khan did hurt her. She tried to work on the relationship and had discussions with him. She just did not give him up without trying to deal with the relationship issues. Khan even said they had many discussions about this. Why would Khan be surprised, the two had serious talks.
Perhaps he didn't expect to be denied with unkind words - as far as I recall it was soemtihing like "What a ridiculous idea" that he should have a relationship with her...
Khan did describe the relationship he had with Diana and he did say that they had long talks about their relationships and its possible future. I think early on Diana did want to keep the relationship private but as time went on really wanted them to appear at events and places as a couple.
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 05:14:33 PM
As I recall, Khan was rather hurt at the way she denied the relationship..
Khan sounds egotistical, IMO. Diana stuck her neck out for him and abided by his wishes. When he saw the result, he was "hurt". Diana could not do right either way it seems.
Just to add, I don't think highly of the guy. Diana was the special one, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 04, 2019, 07:28:14 PM
Khan sounds egotistical, IMO. Diana stuck her neck out for him and abided by his wishes. When he saw the result, he was "hurt". Diana could not do right either way it seems.
Just to add, I don't think highly of the guy. Diana was the special one, IMO.
I daresay anyone would be hurt if someone denied their relationshp with words to the effect that it was a ludicrous idea...
Double post auto-merged: September 04, 2019, 09:18:04 PM
Quote from: sandy on September 04, 2019, 07:01:54 PM
Khan did describe the relationship he had with Diana and he did say that they had long talks about their relationships and its possible future. I think early on Diana did want to keep the relationship private but as time went on really wanted them to appear at events and places as a couple.
As I recall Khan said that they had discussed marriage and he told her he thought one of the few places they would be safe from press intrusion was Pakistan.. and that Diana had visited Pakistan and come back and told him that she felt it would not work....
Khan was the one who said it would not work. Diana wanted his family to approve but Khan wanted no part of a marriage. DIana thought they could work and after a time she got tired of the talks going nowhere. She was the one who changed her phone number.
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 01:31:31 AM
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 06:59:01 PM
Perhaps he didn't expect to be denied with unkind words - as far as I recall it was soemtihing like "What a ridiculous idea" that he should have a relationship with her...
The private words between the couple are known only to them. Kay did not sit there and watch.
Quote from: amabel on September 04, 2019, 09:08:08 PM
I daresay anyone would be hurt if someone denied their relationshp with words to the effect that it was a ludicrous idea...
Diana did it so that people would not think there was something going on, per his own wishes.
I daresay Diana was probably hurt by his actions, IMO.
This is just my personal opinion, but to me he comes across as petulant and passive agressive.
He wasn't all that, and I think Diana realized it. It took great courage for her to think that she deserved better than hidden moments. And she did.
It was due to her wishes as well. She was cagy about letting her relationships become public... It suited her for a time to keep Khan and Hoare as private affairs.
But if she wanted to "protect" Hasnat from unpleasant commentary, it would have been better to deny the relationship in a polite way, as to say something on the lines of "What a load of rubbish , it would be ridiculous for me to have an affair with him".. is harldy polite or kind
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 08:05:52 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 05, 2019, 01:30:57 AM
Khan was the one who said it would not work. Diana wanted his family to approve but Khan wanted no part of a marriage. DIana thought they could work and after a time she got tired of the talks going nowhere. She was the one who changed her phone number.
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 01:31:31 AM
The private words between the couple are known only to them. Kay did not sit there and watch.
But Khan has spoken a little of the affair at the inquest. And his words were as I recall tht they had discussed marriage (I had inititaly had the impression that he had always been reluctant to discuss marriage but it seems not so). So he said that they had discussed it and that he had felt that in the UK it would have been impossible for them to be together without media intrusion.. so he had suggested living abroad and said that the best place, he thought, was Pakinstan as clearly he felt that the British media would have not wanted to follow them if they lived there and he would be able to do useful work... but HK said that Di had visited Pakinstan and come back and told him that she felt it would not work there either. So clearly he was willing to discus and consider marriage.. but was more clear sighted than Diana in fearing that it would just be almost impossible to find a place.. where they would nto be pursued by the press...I think he was also aware that his own family would not really want him to marry Diana, even if they might like her personally but possibly he felt that if they did go to Pakistan, the family would come to Accept Di.. in time - but there would be big adjustments to be made. however the Press probably would nto have wanted to chase them to there. But Diana seems ot have felt that Pakisntan wouldn't work and I believe he said that she mentioned other locations as well but then sometimes came back to him after she had visited foreign countries and said that they would not work. I think that Diana DID want to make a permanent relationship with him.. but she was not realistic about the difficulties whereas he was. However when she visited these foregn countries, esp Pakistan, she maybe did realise unwillingly that it woudnt' work.. that for example Pakistan was too far away from the boys, too foreign for her and she could see that she would find it hard to adjust to it..
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 07:19:00 AM
It was due to her wishes as well. She was cagy about letting her relationships become public... It suited her for a time to keep Khan and Hoare as private affairs.
But if she wanted to "protect" Hasnat from unpleasant commentary, it would have been better to deny the relationship in a polite way, as to say something on the lines of "What a load of rubbish , it would be ridiculous for me to have an affair with him".. is harldy polite or kind
When you have a new relationship, or you are starting a new one, it is entirely up to you who you want to share it with. Diana wanted to make sure that no one would suspect anything and she did that by denying it in those terms. She did this because Khan was adamant about them being "hush hush" and so she respected that.
What does he have to be angry about anyway? They were an item regardless and he should have focused on that, IMO. To me, it seems a bit childish to be angry and, if I recall correctly, stop speaking to your partner because of that. How often did he do that anyway? If I remember correctly.
He was no angel himself, IMO. Did he not say, 10 years after her death, that he suspected her of having met someone, i.e. cheating? If i'm not mistaken. Passive agressive IMO and slanderous (if that's the right word for it when you know the person..).
He suspected she was breaking up with him because she had met someone else.. which was the case.. she was dating Dodi...
and she herself was also eager to keep their relationship "hush hush". If she wanted to deny it, the polite and kindly thing to do would be to say simply "No Im not having a relationship with Dr Khan". To say it was a ridiculous idea, is harldy kind...
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 11:06:15 AM
He suspected she was breaking up with him because she had met someone else.. which was the case.. she was dating Dodi...
and she herself was also eager to keep their relationship "hush hush". If she wanted to deny it, the polite and kindly thing to do would be to say simply "No Im not having a relationship with Dr Khan". To say it was a ridiculous idea, is harldy kind...
She was not dating dating Fayed at the time, according to info out there. It became romantic on the second round of the vacation when she had already left Khan and changed her phone number. She even told him, if I remember correctly, that it's "over". How more clear could she get?
Her change of behaviour likely stems from her realizing that her relationship was not going anywhere and was probably fed up with different aspects of it, in my opinion. Remember, we don't know what Diana objected to about Khan because she never told us or made it public. Only she knows why in her heart she felt it was better to leave him and move on.
In my opinion, this was the basis for her "change in behaviour" and nothing else. That he thought that the only explanation was that she met someone (while visiting friends, while being with him) is a reflection on him, and not on Diana. IMO.
This is just my personal opinion of course, I believe he's retelling or intrepreting events so as to portray himself in a good light. IMO. He wasn't all that.
Diana tried to sustain the relationship with Khan. But it did not work out
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 02:05:41 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 11:06:15 AM
He suspected she was breaking up with him because she had met someone else.. which was the case.. she was dating Dodi...
and she herself was also eager to keep their relationship "hush hush". If she wanted to deny it, the polite and kindly thing to do would be to say simply "No Im not having a relationship with Dr Khan". To say it was a ridiculous idea, is harldy kind...
If Khan and Diana had worked things out and were both on the same page. I doubt she'd have taken up with Dodi. Diana tried.
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 02:07:45 PM
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 07:19:00 AM
It was due to her wishes as well. She was cagy about letting her relationships become public... It suited her for a time to keep Khan and Hoare as private affairs.
But if she wanted to "protect" Hasnat from unpleasant commentary, it would have been better to deny the relationship in a polite way, as to say something on the lines of "What a load of rubbish , it would be ridiculous for me to have an affair with him".. is harldy polite or kind
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 08:05:52 AM
But Khan has spoken a little of the affair at the inquest. And his words were as I recall tht they had discussed marriage (I had inititaly had the impression that he had always been reluctant to discuss marriage but it seems not so). So he said that they had discussed it and that he had felt that in the UK it would have been impossible for them to be together without media intrusion.. so he had suggested living abroad and said that the best place, he thought, was Pakinstan as clearly he felt that the British media would have not wanted to follow them if they lived there and he would be able to do useful work... but HK said that Di had visited Pakinstan and come back and told him that she felt it would not work there either. So clearly he was willing to discus and consider marriage.. but was more clear sighted than Diana in fearing that it would just be almost impossible to find a place.. where they would nto be pursued by the press...I think he was also aware that his own family would not really want him to marry Diana, even if they might like her personally but possibly he felt that if they did go to Pakistan, the family would come to Accept Di.. in time - but there would be big adjustments to be made. however the Press probably would nto have wanted to chase them to there. But Diana seems ot have felt that Pakisntan wouldn't work and I believe he said that she mentioned other locations as well but then sometimes came back to him after she had visited foreign countries and said that they would not work. I think that Diana DID want to make a permanent relationship with him.. but she was not realistic about the difficulties whereas he was. However when she visited these foregn countries, esp Pakistan, she maybe did realise unwillingly that it woudnt' work.. that for example Pakistan was too far away from the boys, too foreign for her and she could see that she would find it hard to adjust to it..
Khan had made it clear that he did not want to be in the limelight which is what would have happened had he married Diana. he also made it clear there were cultural differences. If he really had been serious about marriage and was open to it, I doubt Diana would have broken things off. He would not even be seen in public with her. Maybe he was the unrealistic one, if he felt there could be no future he should not have begun any sort of relationship with Diana who made it clear she wanted it to be permanent and have a future.
Diana and hoare certainly would not have openly dated considering...
Quote from: sandy on September 05, 2019, 02:04:53 PM
Diana tried to sustain the relationship with Khan. But it did not work out
It's happens in everyday life. People try and when it don't work out, they move on. She tried and when she saw it as going nowhere she moved on. It's just normal. Diana isn't here to explain in detail why. I personally think she was the one that made the most effort.
If you know you are from a different culture (and that matters to you), and dating the POW is it really feasible to think it would/could be secret for long? If these things are serious concerns why even seriously date someone that famous? That's slightly disingenuous IMO.
I think the slightly off putting thing about it is later on to claim that he suspected that she had met someone.
At any rate, Diana moved on and seemed happy in her last days.
yes she msut have been very happy with Dodi...
I mean she looked pretty happy judging from the pics of the vacation(s)
I think she tried to move on and looked like she enjoyed herself. She even wrote a letter to Fayed thanking him.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 03:11:39 PM
I mean she looked pretty happy judging from the pics of the vacation(s)
I think she tried to move on and looked like she enjoyed herself. She even wrote a letter to Fayed thanking him.
Do you think so? SOme reports claim that she enjoyed it as a light hearted fling.. but it was not expected to last long.. and that she was getting fed up with Dodi within a short time. (In fact I seem to remember some one of her friends saying that the "KISS" photos didn't look too convincing in Her opinion.. that it looked more like Diana was "letting Dodi kiss her" rather than looking whole heartedly happy with it. ) Its reflected in the ambivalent things that she said about the romance.. To some friends she gave the impression that it was a big romance.. to others that it was just a bit of summer fun and she wasn't looking for another marriage or anything serious....
THey really didn't spend long together over all... and yet it seems that within that short time, she was getting irritated by him, embarrassed and annoyed by his "showering her with gifts", realising that he was dominated by his father. She must have realised before long that he was indeed dominated by Al Fayed, and perhaps that he was only paying court to her because Dad was pushing him.. She must have heard some of the stories about his not payng bills, his former cocaine habit, his girlfriend.
and Diana liked a comfortably arranged orderly life.. so the messy confused goings on of that last day with the Paparazzi chasing them and Dodi's changing his plans etc must have been very stressful for her..
The two are dead now. And there is no written or spoken record by either of them about the relationship. Diana was having a vacation and dating someone. I doubt she thought about remarrying right away.
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 03:18:27 PM
Do you think so? SOme reports claim that she enjoyed it as a light hearted fling.. but it was not expected to last long.. and that she was getting fed up with Dodi within a short time. They hadn't been together long.. yet it seems that within that short time, she was getting irritated by him, embarrassed and annoyed by his "showering her with gifts", realising that he was dominated by his father. She must have realised before long that he was indeed dominated by Al Fayed, and perhaps that he was only paying court to her because Dad was pushing him..
and Diana liked a comfortably arranged orderly life.. so the messy confused goings on of that last day with the Paparazzi chasing them and Dodi's changing his plans etc must have been very stressful for her..
She could have realized some of those things and still have had a happy time. It's not like she was going to marry him, and I don't think that the length of a relationship is necessarily a prerequisite for enjoying a holiday IMO. It was lighthearted and she had fun.
There is surveillance tape of Diana and him hugging and holding each other less than an hour before they got in the car. Witnesses said that they looked happy and were joking etc. How fed up could she have been then?
Unfortunately mistakes were made.
Quote from: sandy on September 05, 2019, 03:27:19 PM
The two are dead now. And there is no written or spoken record by either of them about the relationship. Diana was having a vacation and dating someone. I doubt she thought about remarrying right away.
No, but there's a lot of difference between not watning to rush into a marriage nad finding that your new boyfriend was a former dr&g user, a man with no job, no money except his father's allowances which he could not live on..
Double post auto-merged: September 05, 2019, 03:36:08 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 03:29:10 PM
She could have realized some of those things and still have had a happy time. It's not like she was going to marry him, and I don't think that the length of a relationship is necessarily a prerequisite for enjoying a holiday IMO. It was lighthearted and she had fun.
There is surveillance tape of Diana and him hugging and holding each other less than an hour before they got in the car. Witnesses said that they looked happy and were joking etc. How fed up could she have been then?
Unfortunately mistakes were made.
the tape I've seen of her on camera on her way to the car, she looks tense and not at all happy. Mistakes - ? very big mistakes which led to tragedy...
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 03:34:54 PM
the tape I've seen of her on camera on her way to the car, she looks tense and not at all happy. Mistakes - ? very big mistakes which led to tragedy...
That was the day before I believe. There's another one of them where they are together before they got in the car.
the last footage I know of her, was on the Ritz camera where she and Dodi were going out to the car. on their final awful journey....
. and not surprisingly after all the mucking around, she looks tense.
The last video footage of her is around 12 PM 31/07
There are plenty of youtube videos but most of them are very long.
In it she seems close to Fayed.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 03:45:08 PM
The last video footage of her is around 12 PM 31/07
There are plenty of youtube videos but most of them are very long.
In it she seems close to Fayed.
yes that was when she was going out to the car with Dodi, wasn't it? I got the feeling she was just longing to go back home and rest.. and hoping that Dodi would make some arrangement that would make the paparazzi go away and let her have some peace...
I think she was irritated because of the photographers. But I think she enjoyed the vacation overall. She looked happy in many of the pics.
Personally, I believe that she had a bright future ahead of her, and that this vacation was a way of relaxing i.e. just what she needed before some new beginnings.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 03:57:20 PM
I think she was irritated because of the photographers. But I think she enjoyed the vacation overall. She looked happy in many of the pics.
Personally, I believe that she had a bright future ahead of her, and that this vacation was a way of relaxing i.e. just what she needed before some new beginnings.
Its hard to say. If she was continuing to waver as she had been doing, over her charity work, its possible that she would have ended up without much to occupy her...and the boys were getting older and at the age where they were likely to be living their own lives more. And I don't think the romance with Dodi was going anywhere, unless she was prepared to put up with MAF organising her life and basically using her...
I don't think she was "wavering". She was re organizing IMO and of course some charities would be upset at not having her as a patron. I think that she thought of what she really wanted to do careers wise and personally post royal life so to speak.
Her children were growing up but I don't think that she was dependent on them. She was planning for her future.
I think that she was enjoying herself, and taking it day by day. She certainly didn't need MAF. There were plenty of people willing to help her out and she would have been fine on her own. Look at her trips to the US around 95-97. She was very sought after and the charities loved her because she had such drawing power that really helped financially.
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 04:08:23 PM
Its hard to say. If she was continuing to waver as she had been doing, over her charity work, its possible that she would have ended up without much to occupy her...and the boys were getting older and at the age where they were likely to be living their own lives more. And I don't think the romance with Dodi was going anywhere, unless she was prepared to put up with MAF organising her life and basically using her...
She was regrouping not wavering. She was being proactive in looking for a new role for herself. the boys were still young then and not living their own lives. She also was not going to rush into another marriage
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 04:24:36 PM
I don't think she was "wavering". She was re organizing IMO and of course some charities would be upset at not having her as a patron. I think that she thought of what she really wanted to do careers wise and personally post royal life so to speak.
Her children were growing up but I don't think that she was dependent on them. She was planning for her future.
I think that she was enjoying herself, and taking it day by day. She certainly didn't need MAF. There were plenty of people willing to help her out and she would have been fine on her own. Look at her trips to the US around 95-97. She was very sought after and the charities loved her because she had such drawing power that really helped financially.
when she had dropped 100 charities..not to mention her erratic behaviour wth the ones she had kept... THey weren't upset so much as annoyed at her behaviour....
And She was, as youi know, saying to Rich Kay that she was going to use MAF's money to set up a charity for Hospices in poorer countries.
She was regrouping. She was no longer doing royal duties and maybe returned to some of the charities.. She only lived a year after the divorce I don't think any conclusions of her being "remiss" should be made.
I find it hard to believe that she would be relying only on MAF's money. She was great at raising money herself plus she may not have wanted to ask him for money should she and Dodi had broken up. Diana herself never made any public announcements regarding MAF's role. It might have been only a fleeting thought. I just can't see this happening. If he wanted to help he would set up his own charity and not funnel money through Diana.
MAF didn't want to "help". He wanted to use his money to form a connextion with Diana who would in turn marry his son...
and form what Diana said she was giving up her Red Cross work and focussing on a new charity with MAF.. of Course knowing how she veered around it might not have come to anything.. and MAF would harldy have wanted ot shell out unless he got something in return for it...
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 06:41:03 PM
when she had dropped 100 charities..not to mention her erratic behaviour wth the ones she had kept... THey weren't upset so much as annoyed at her behaviour....
And She was, as youi know, saying to Rich Kay that she was going to use MAF's money to set up a charity for Hospices in poorer countries.
She left many charities because she no longer was married to the POW. She was a divorced princess of Wales and had to carve out a role for herself.
What erratic behaviour? She traveled overseas to the US, Australia etc. for the sake of the charities she kept. That takes committment, IMO.
She and MAF perhaps had discussed different ideas that she brought up. That does not mean that she seriously considered it.
And Diana's dead so she can't refute or confirm the content of the last call between her and Kay. So he's quite free to interpret it as he likes, IMO.
Amabel, He may have thought Diana would marry his son. I doubt Diana would rush into another marriage after only one year of divorce. And she may have not necessarily have chosen Dodi.
Kay said Diana said this. Diana was talking to Tony Blair about her new role. And making plans.
She really did not need MAF. She managed without him in her charity work. Diana is not around to refute Kay's claims
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 07:51:39 PM
She left many charities because she no longer was married to the POW. She was a divorced princess of Wales and had to carve out a role for herself.
What erratic behaviour? She traveled overseas to the US, Australia etc. for the sake of the charities she kept. That takes committment, IMO.
She and MAF perhaps had discussed different ideas that she brought up. That does not mean that she seriously considered it.
And Diana's dead so she can't refute or confirm the content of the last call between her and Kay. So he's quite free to interpret it as he likes, IMO.
In fact as I recall she didn't do much for the British AIDS charity which was one of the ones she kept.. but did do some wrork for an AMiercan AIDS charity.. whch didn't go down too well. She also insisted on Bringing Aileen Getty to an event run by the British AIDS charity, when they specifically asked her not to do this.
THat's rather erratic behaviour..
As for RIchard Kay, why would he make things up? It was his last conversation with her.. no matter what she had said the story would have sold.. so why make something up? Presumably he recorded what she said, and published it.. and she was saying that she was giving up her Red Cross work and was retiring from the "semi Royal" patronage role and (She said) goig to do charity work as a private individual, with MAFs money...
W
Kay and others after Diana died claims she said things. She can't confirm or deny them because she's dead.
I doubt Diana would have relied on MAF for any projects she was working on for her future.
Diana died about a year after the divorce, it's not as if she lived for 20 more and all these conclusions about her can be made.
She was not erratic. She had a major life change. As a teen she got engaged to the Prince of Wales and at age 36 after so many years was a divorcee. If people are not effected by these major changes I find that erratic.
Why would it be erratic not to be affected by changes??
Why would Kaye make something up? Why? He had a talk with her a day or so before she died. If they had just talked about EastEnders he was guaranteed that the story wodl do well.. so why make up stuff about her working with MAF and asking if people didn't like MAF and Dodi because they were rich?
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 07:58:28 PM
In fact as I recall she didn't do much for the British AIDS charity which was one of the ones she kept.. but did do some wrork for an AMiercan AIDS charity.. whch didn't go down too well. She also insisted on Bringing Aileen Getty to an event run by the British AIDS charity, when they specifically asked her not to do this.
THat's rather erratic behaviour..
As for RIchard Kay, why would he make things up? It was his last conversation with her.. no matter what she had said the story would have sold.. so why make something up? Presumably he recorded what she said, and published it.. and she was saying that she was giving up her Red Cross work and was retiring from the "semi Royal" patronage role and (She said) goig to do charity work as a private individual, with MAFs money...
W
She helped the cause of AIDS charity world wide. She brought attention to it, and probably helped with the finance. Moreover, she helped shatter the image of the disease just by one image. That's something IMO.
I don't know what the specifics were behind that incident. Again, Diana is not here to give an explanation as to why she brought out this person.
Since she was planning and re organization it might take time for things to fall into place so to speak. She did alot even that last year in her life. She brought to attention the effect of land mines when it was not so much focus on it. She wanted to continue with that. She met president Mandela to combat aids in South Africa. And had plans to meet Clinton and discuss those subjects.
All of this she did as a divorce POW. Not bad at all IMO.
This is pretty much "hearsay". Diana did not need MAF. She could have had many philantropic suitors had she been so inclined. Her greatest accomplishments were achieved without MAF, the combatting of landmines and aids. She would have found a way without MAF and was not dependent on him, IMO.
Because amabel people realistically have to adjust and make changes. Diana could not realistically keep doing the same t hings she did pre divorce. This meant changes for her and she was adapting to them.
Seward had a "talk" with her too and some of the things she said were hard to believe. I take this with a grain of salt.
I doubt Diana would have made herself dependent on Fayed. She most likely would not have married Dodi
After Diana's death there were suddenly alot of people who she "confided" to.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 08:09:43 PM
She helped the cause of AIDS charity world wide. She brought attention to it, and probably helped with the finance. Moreover, she helped shatter the image of the disease just by one image. That's something IMO.
I don't know what the specifics were behind that incident. Again, Diana is not here to give an explanation as to why she brought out this person.
Since she was planning and re organization it might take time for things to fall into place so to speak. She did alot even that last year in her life. She brought to attention the effect of land mines when it was not so much focus on it. She wanted to continue with that. She met president Mandela to combat aids in South Africa. And had plans to meet Clinton and discuss those subjects.
All of this she did as a divorce POW. Not bad at all IMO.
This is pretty much "hearsay". Diana did not need MAF. She could have had many philantropic suitors had she been so inclined. Her greatest accomplishments were achieved without MAF, the combatting of landmines and aids. She would have found a way without MAF and was not dependent on him, IMO.
so why bring him up> Why say she was going to retire from the charity work she had done and work with him and his money?
She was asked NOT to bring Aileen Getty to an event which was being organised by her British Charity for AIDS of which she was Patron. How hard was it to not do that? Why do something that annoyed the people who were full time workers for that charity? They said that they began to leave her out of their events because when she was asked if she would come to an event of theirs, "she wouldn't say a definite yes or no..." so they could not make their plans - and so they began to just leave her out of things. If that went on, how long would it be before tey began to look for a new Patron?
She also did engagements for an American AIDS charity while not doing very muc for her own British charity.
She was extremely erratic in her charity work in the last years and people who worked in theise organisations felt they could not count on her.
Quote from: amabel on September 05, 2019, 08:17:29 PM
so why bring him up> Why say she was going to retire from the charity work she had done and work with him and his money?
She was asked NOT to bring Aileen Getty to an event which was being organised by her British Charity for AIDS of which she was Patron. How hard was it to not do that? Why do something that annoyed the people who were full time workers for that charity? They said that they began to leave her out of their events because when she was asked if she would come to an event of theirs, "she wouldn't say a definite yes or no..." so they could not make their plans - and so they began to just leave her out of things. If that went on, how long would it be before tey began to look for a new Patron?
She also did engagements for an American AIDS charity while not doing very muc for her own British charity.
She was extremely erratic in her charity work in the last years and people who worked in theise organisations felt they could not count on her.
Kay said it. Diana isn't here to confirm or deny. She might have just talked about different ideas she discussed with MAF in a general sense. People sometimes discuss things but that doesn't mean that they'll put a plan in motion.
We don't know the details, and we can only hear the story from their point of view.
Engagements for aids would have been beneficial for everyone. Regardless of where it's done, IMO. She did plenty in the UK in the 80s and beginning of the 90s, if I understood it correctly.
She could not have been extremely erratic and gone on to be very successful with the aids and land mines charities, and earning the respect of statesmen such as president Mandela. Consequently she was not erratic.
Maybe there was an idle comment by Mohammed that he could help her when they were on the yacht and had a conversation. And maybe Kay put a spin that she was asking Mohammed for money for a charity or he said definitely he would support a charity.
DIana was decidedly not erratic. In the last year of her life she accomplished more than people do in several years. The charity auction, the anti Landmine campaign come to mind.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 05, 2019, 08:26:45 PM
Kay said it. Diana isn't here to confirm or deny. She might have just talked about different ideas she discussed with MAF in a general sense. People sometimes discuss things but that doesn't mean that they'll put a plan in motion.
We don't know the details, and we can only hear the story from their point of view.
Engagements for aids would have been beneficial for everyone. Regardless of where it's done, IMO. She did plenty in the UK in the 80s and beginning of the 90s, if I understood it correctly.
She could not have been extremely erratic and gone on to be very successful with the aids and land mines charities, and earning the respect of statesmen such as president Mandela. Consequently she was not erratic.
Yes she was. I've just mentioned some of her behaviour which annoyed the charities that she did work with. Doing work for another American charity while neglecting your Brtitish one that you are a Patron of.. is not sensible.. and it will annoy the British charity. Because of her position as a former Princess, she did meet world leaders but a polite visit is not the same as hard work for a particular cause. Diana became very erratic about doing the work.. Her involvement with the Red Cross for landmines was a relatively brief thing and while it did some good.. she was talking to Rich Kay about dropping the Red X work and moving on to working with MAF. I can't see why on earth Richard Kay would have made anything up. Why?? There is no reason to suppose that he had any agenda - he was Diana's "faithful reporter" whom she often used to put out a story...If he had just said that they had a chat about traffic in London.. given that it was his "last story" about Diana, it would have been published....
Double post auto-merged: September 06, 2019, 07:20:54 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 05, 2019, 11:52:28 PM
Maybe there was an idle comment by Mohammed that he could help her when they were on the yacht and had a conversation. And maybe Kay put a spin that she was asking Mohammed for money for a charity or he said definitely he would support a charity.
Do you think that MAF makes ilde comments? If he wanted to use Diana to get himself noticed it would all be very much thought out and planned. He was probably hoping for a quid pro quo.. Di would marry Dodi, they would set up as "a golden couple doing charity work" with MAFs money behind it..
Diana might have thoguth it was a nice idea so that she wasnt' dependent on her position as an "Ex princess" - but given that she did not seem to be very committed ot the romance with Dodi, as usual, it is hard to figure out what she was really thinking. Perhaps she thought that she and Dodi could go around being the "Charity couple of the year" using MAFs money to set up hospices and going around visiting them...But I cant see Dodi doing that for long..and I don't know if Diana would have stuck with him for long...
Quote from: amabel on September 06, 2019, 06:48:57 AM
Yes she was. I've just mentioned some of her behaviour which annoyed the charities that she did work with. Doing work for another American charity while neglecting your Brtitish one that you are a Patron of.. is not sensible.. and it will annoy the British charity. Because of her position as a former Princess, she did meet world leaders but a polite visit is not the same as hard work for a particular cause. Diana became very erratic about doing the work.. Her involvement with the Red Cross for landmines was a relatively brief thing and while it did some good.. she was talking to Rich Kay about dropping the Red X work and moving on to working with MAF. I can't see why on earth Richard Kay would have made anything up. Why?? There is no reason to suppose that he had any agenda - he was Diana's "faithful reporter" whom she often used to put out a story...If he had just said that they had a chat about traffic in London.. given that it was his "last story" about Diana, it would have been published....
Disagreements or misunderstandings are bound to happen when you work. That does not mean she neglected anything. She worked continously with aids charities in both the US and UK (and other countries while visiting).
It was not a polite visit IMO. She had meeting with president Mandela and planned to meet Clinton with regards to her aids charities work. So she was in the beginning of planning a way to tackle the aids issue with the help of statesmen. She meant business in other Words.
I don't know about Kay making things up. However, when you discuss your conversations with a now deceased person, there is only one version we get to hear. He might have given more weight to Diana just tossing ideas. She might have had many ideas. That does not mean that she would give up charities IMO. He even said that he thought that because Diana was so happy her and Fayed would marry, and then retracted, if I remember correctly.
It's completely possible to misintrepret what other people say, especially when they're not here to clarify, is what i'm trying to get at.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 06, 2019, 07:28:10 AM
Disagreements or misunderstandings are bound to happen when you work. That does not mean she neglected anything. She worked continously with aids charities in both the US and UK (and other countries while visiting).
It was not a polite visit IMO. She had meeting with president Mandela and planned to meet Clinton with regards to her aids charities work. So she was in the beginning of planning a way to tackle the aids issue with the help of statesmen. She meant business in other Words.
I don't know about Kay making things up. However, when you discuss your conversations with a now deceased person, there is only one version we get to hear. He might have given more weight to Diana just tossing ideas. She might have had many ideas. That does not mean that she would give up charities IMO. He even said that he thought that because Diana was so happy her and Fayed would marry, and then retracted, if I remember correctly.
It's completely possible to misintrepret what other people say, especially when they're not here to clarify, is what i'm trying to get at.
She may have had visits with Clinton etc but they were polite visits. Diana could not just barrel in and do thngs..The President of the USA was not going to be working with her on these issues..
Diana was not a charity worker.. She had no formal training in charity administration or the like. She was in danger at times of being considered a "loose cannon" because she wandered into controversial issues like Landmines. She would have needed to work through existing charities and she WAS the patron of a British AIDS Charity. but as I have said, that AIDS charity was irritated by her behaviour and began to leave her out of their big events. So how would she have gotten on with other charities if she continued to be on and off in what she did? They too wold probably start to drop her from their events and perhaps look for another Patron...
RIchard kay did say that he htougth that Diana might marry Dodi, but clearly Diana was not sharing iwht him her doubts abuot Dodi.. she told friends that it was just a summer romance and that she didn't want another marriage. However, she seems to have indicated to Kay that while she wasn't rushing into marriage, she was involved with Dodi and thinking of doing charity work with MAF. It was pretty common for Diana to be erratic and contradictory in what she told people so it is not surprising that Kay may have been told one story about the Dodi affair and her closer friends might have been given a different version. I think that she was not that committed to Dod but she had made a big show of the romance so she could not just abruptly drop him..
Working together is not "barrel in and do things".
Presidents sometimes use the help of other known people when it comes to charities. It's nothing new. FDR did it in the 30s and 40s with his march of dimes where celebrities sometimes participated.
Diana was a powerhouse when it came to charities and raising money so she was bound to be taken seriously.
Diana worked for years, when married to PC, with different charities. That means she was well read on the topics, knew how to approach it, and had the help of educated people. It's the same as saying that PC is not a good charity worker because he had no educational background in it. As we know he went on to found the prince's trust which is a very succesful organization.
Diana just by being present and lending her support to the aids charities issue, the land mine issue, spoke about different
ailments, brought much needed attention and managed to help change the tone of conversation so to speak. This is no small feat.
To be honest it's their problem if they decided to drop her. Disagreements or misunderstandings is not a reason to leave someone
out.
She was not a loose cannon. Since the 80s it was known, imo, that she tackled difficult subjects and lend her hand to charities that were a "hard sell" and hadn't recieved much attention. The main reason discussing land mines today is not as difficult as before is because she shone a light on the subject and bore the brunt of criticism. In other words, she lead the way.
She was very much wanted by different charities. Just look at the interest generated when she went to the US.
Diana and Kay probably had a normal conversation about different topics and MAF and his son came up. Because she died more weight might have been given to "statments" that what normally would have. It was maybe musings on her behalf. Him misintrepreting it leads me to believe that he could misintrepret other things, IMO.
Normally people discuss things more intimately with friends than journalists. We don't know how long the relationship might have lasted.
There was no deadline on it and she seemed fond enough to initiate PDA the night that she died. Would she have married him?
In all likelyhood no, IMO. But likewise we don't know when she would have ended it.
Diana can't speak and confirm or refute anything. So some parts are pure speculation, IMO.
Likewise, I don't believe it was for show. I don't think that she faked her feelings. I think that this is just a way of protraying Diana as being "erratic" and "foolish". When in reality she was a person who did what she could in a relationship that was going nowhere. She decided to move on which is perfectly normal. IMO.
Yes Diana worked as a Princess through existing Charities, and with the assistance of her staff who were educated people who could guide her in the work. When she left the RF, she lost that sort of support, and was reliant on friends and staff even like Burrell...who did not always give the best advice...
so she became more fitful in her work, dropped most of her charities (which did not go down well)..
It idid not look good that the AIDS charity said that they had begun to leave her out of things.. She only had 6 charities left. If one of them did not use her.. what was she going to do? A visit to the US was one thing and might get her some notice... but unless she was going to settle there.. she could harldy go on working for US charities while officialy she was meant to be in the UK and supporting a handful of British charities. CLinton might like to be seen with her.. but he was not going to "use her" for anything.. except for a photo opp. And yes she was considered a "loose cannon". She hadn't any knowledge of the landmines issue until Bill Deedes a British journalist got her interested in it..and it is a controversial issue which got her a lot of criticism in the UK. Other people had worked on this issue for a long tiem before she came along.
No we don't know how long the relationship with Dodi might have lasted but she did refer to it as a summer romance..and the summer was nearly over. Odds are that she would have cooled it when the holiday season was over and she was bak home. As I recall one fo the stewardesses on the boat said that Diana had been commenting on Dodi's habit of making a fuss about little things.. and surely the more info came out about his less than charming habits, the more likely ti was that she would dorp him...
She was not reliant on them in a substantial way. She was planning and organizing her life post marriage, and would probably have hired competent personnel IMO.
I think that she would have been just fine.
The aids charities leaving her out is on them. It was her choice to only have 6 charities. If she had announced that she would take on a hundred more, i'm sure there would have been many that would want her patronage.
She did not just visit nations or presidents for photo ops. She was planning new ways to tackle different issues which showed that she was serious about both her charities and her future.
The landmine issue got her attention and she became knowledgeable about it, which people who were with her also said. They were impressed with how she immersed herself.
Diana having a summer romance does not mean that there was a deadline for the relationship. She might have left after a month, or three or six. We don't know.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 06, 2019, 09:04:15 AM
She was not reliant on them in a substantial way. She was planning and organizing her life post marriage, and would probably have hired competent personnel IMO.
I think that she would have been just fine.
The aids charities leaving her out is on them. It was her choice to only have 6 charities. If she had announced that she would take on a hundred more, i'm sure there would have been many that would want her patronage.
She did not just visit nations or presidents for photo ops. She was planning new ways to tackle different issues which showed that she was serious about both her charities and her future.
The landmine issue got her attention and she became knowledgeable about it, which people who were with her also said. They were impressed with how she immersed herself.
she HAD over 100 charities. She dropped them. It did not go down well In the UK. Many of the charities ddnt find out they had been dropped till it was on the news. Diana's PR adviser told her not to drop the charities in this abrupt way but she did and her PR lady left her.
If Diana was hiring "competent personnel", she wasn't listening to their advice.. She was relying on random people who suggested things to her - occasionally it worked out OK but mostly she was drifting around at the mercy of whoever happened to catch her attention. THat was probably why she did some work for an American AIDS charity while annoying and neglecting the British one. Again, taht did not look good to the British charities or many of the public.
If she was "looking for new ways to tackle issues" she would have been better to hire professional helpers, and LISTEN to them.. and to stick with whatever wrok she had on hand..Perhaps study some issue in depth...
And do you really thnk that the many charitie she had dropped, would want her back?
It's not so odd for Diana to leave 100 charities. It would have been unsustainable to keep them as she was moving on. PC, HM, PP, PA and PE all can keep having those amounts of charities because they have an enourmous machine supporting them. Diana was carving out a new role for herself, and needed som time to organize and plan. It was perfectly logical for her to do this.
As for the timing, or it being abrupt, I need to look into it more, i.e. reading article etc. about the timing in order to make an accurate judgement.
Whether you are an employer or an employee, disagreements might occur. This is not something out of the ordinary. And it doesn't mean that Diana should always take someone elses advice, IMO. I think she was in a period of trying to find herself, or rather, landing on her feet after a long and ardous ordeal. Of course, sometimes mistakes are made. But that's how you learn.
I think she would have quickly realized who she wanted with her, and who gave sound advice and who didn't. I think that she looked ahead.
If they did not want her back they would not be so angry, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 06, 2019, 09:59:43 AM
It's not so odd for Diana to leave 100 charities. It would have been unsustainable to keep them as she was moving on. PC, HM, PP, PA and PE all can keep having those amounts of charities because they have an enourmous machine supporting them. Diana was carving out a new role for herself, and needed som time to organize and plan. It was perfectly logical for her to do this.
As for the timing, or it being abrupt, I need to look into it more, i.e. reading article etc. about the timing in order to make an accurate judgement.
Whether
I think she would have quickly realized who she wanted with her, and who gave sound advice and who didn't. I think that she looked ahead.
If they did not want her back they would not be so angry, IMO.
Who woudlnt' be so angry? Her charities didn't object so much to her leaving them.. as to the way it was done. It was abrupt.. it looked like petulance on Dis' part. And most of them didn't necessarily want her to do work for them but just to be a name on the letterheading.. and she could quite well have contacted them politely and given them advance notice so they could look for another patron.
But to decide to cut back on her charities so she could take a more in depth role with a few and then not do that, didn't look good either. It was not a bad idea.. if she had stuck to it.. but she didnt'. She didn't seem to know "who gave sound advice"..and usually disregarded a lot of the advice she was given. She was at the mercy of whatever or whoever seemed to come and attract her attention for a short time...
It was not petulance nor did it "look like it" as far as I'm concerned. Diana was divorced from Charles she was not going to be doing appearances for the royals. New life for her.
She was only dead a year and I think those Charities understand the circumstances now.
she was regrouping and only had a year to live. She never seems to get any slack for this which I don't understand.
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Quote from: amabel on September 06, 2019, 09:20:17 AM
she HAD over 100 charities. She dropped them. It did not go down well In the UK. Many of the charities ddnt find out they had been dropped till it was on the news. Diana's PR adviser told her not to drop the charities in this abrupt way but she did and her PR lady left her.
If Diana was hiring "competent personnel", she wasn't listening to their advice.. She was relying on random people who suggested things to her - occasionally it worked out OK but mostly she was drifting around at the mercy of whoever happened to catch her attention. THat was probably why she did some work for an American AIDS charity while annoying and neglecting the British one. Again, taht did not look good to the British charities or many of the public.
If she was "looking for new ways to tackle issues" she would have been better to hire professional helpers, and LISTEN to them.. and to stick with whatever wrok she had on hand..Perhaps study some issue in depth...
And do you really thnk that the many charitie she had dropped, would want her back?
Diana was divorced wife of Prince Charles beginning Summer 1996. She may very well have started working again for those charities. Perhaps the royals were planning to re-assign the charities to a working royal.
She had one year of life left not 20
Quote from: sandy on September 06, 2019, 12:22:42 PM
It was not petulance nor did it "look like it" as far as I'm concerned. Diana was divorced from Charles she was not going to be doing appearances for the royals. New life for her.
She was only dead a year and I think those Charities understand the circumstances now.
she was regrouping and only had a year to live. She never seems to get any slack for this which I don't understand.
Double post auto-merged: September 06, 2019, 12:24:00 PM
Diana was divorced wife of Prince Charles beginning Summer 1996. She may very well have started working again for those charities. Perhaps the royals were planning to re-assign the charities to a working royal.
She had one year of life left not 20
why would she start working for the charities again? Her official reason for dropping them was 2 fold.. Part of it was that she had lost her HRH, and felt that the charities should have a royal patron so she was leaving them so they could look for a royal patron. the Other reason was that she watnted to get more deeply involved in a few charities, rather than just be a name for a lot of them.. so she would hardly want to take on a lot of them again..
She was talking to Blair about her future role. Why wouldn't she do charity work again? She sold her gowns in 1997 For Charity. She visited Mother Teresa who did charitable work.
SHe was no longer doing royal duties after the DIvorce. She only lived one more year.
What she wanted went with her to her grave. I don't think any assumptions can be made under the circumstances
She was quite productive in the last two years of her life, which is quite remarkable considering everything else she had to think of, and went through.
I think she would have been just fine, and perhaps would have explored new areas of work/charity.
Such a shame. She was gone too soon.
Quote from: sandy on September 07, 2019, 12:13:42 PM
She was talking to Blair about her future role. Why wouldn't she do charity work again? She sold her gowns in 1997 For Charity. She visited Mother Teresa who did charitable work.
Blair was not going to "use her" as she seems to have believed. And I didn't say she would not be doing charity work.. I said that she wuodl not take on more charities.. because she had dropped most of her charities because of the issue of her having lost her HRH
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Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 07, 2019, 01:36:21 PM
She was quite productive in the last two years of her life, which is quite remarkable considering everything else she had to think of, and went through.
I think she would have been just fine, and perhaps would have explored new areas of work/charity.
Such a shame. She was gone too soon.
Its hard to say that, when she was so contradictory in what she said. On one hand she was saying she intended to give up her "semi Royal" role as a charity patron.. (such as Her Red Cross work)- and that she intended to start a new charity which would be dependent on MAF's financial help. THen she told other people that she didn't think the romance with Dodi would be a lasting one...
Well she talked to him what he was or was not going to do is a moot point. She died and he spoke publicly about her the day after On TV.
She was only divorced a year and I don't think conclusions about her future can be made. Maybe the royal patronages were supposed to be re-distributed after the divorce. They could hardly expect DIana to continue as if no divorce ever happened.
Quote from: sandy on September 07, 2019, 09:44:38 PM
Well she talked to him what he was or was not going to do is a moot point. She died and he spoke publicly about her the day after On TV.
She was only divorced a year and I don't think conclusions about her future can be made. Maybe the royal patronages were supposed to be re-distributed after the divorce. They could hardly expect DIana to continue as if no divorce ever happened.
If you mean the RF, they didn't care what she did. As for Blair, he was simply expressing the normal "sorrow" at the death of a young and famous woman.. that did not mean he was likely to "wrok with her" on anything.
How do you know what would have happened? Diana died and Blair could not help her with her role. It all ended on AUgust 31, 1997.
Why is it that the worst is assumed about Diana who had one year of life after her divorce.
Quote from: sandy on September 08, 2019, 01:02:18 PM
How do you know what would have happened? Diana died and Blair could not help her with her role. It all ended on AUgust 31, 1997.
Why is it that the worst is assumed about Diana who had one year of life after her divorce.
He would not have "helped her with her role".. whatever that means. Diana was the former wife of the Prince of Wales. She had no role except to do whatever charity work she might decide on. She had no "role" in the Royal family any more and so she had nothing to do with Tony Blair..
This is what was said in the media. I am merely the messenger. Diana can't tell what she meant she's dead and Blair may not want to talk about it. She was a human being with much to offer, the royals don't have a monopoly on what people can do or not do.
Quote from: sandy on September 08, 2019, 01:09:43 PM
This is what was said in the media. I am merely the messenger. Diana can't tell what she meant she's dead and Blair may not want to talk about it. She was a human being with much to offer, the royals don't have a monopoly on what people can do or not do.
There is no role in the British constitution for the ex wife of the POW. As Princess of wales, diana had a representative role, with her husband.. Once she was divorced she was out of it.
So she went to talk to Blair and was not stopped at the door. The Constitution did not stop them from speaking. Diana's life was not ended with the divorce and she was carving a role for herself. I think it is great she could have lived on the divorce settlement. But she can't win, if she tries to carve a new role she's criticized if she sat in her home living off the money she would be criticized in some circles.
Diana died a year after the divorce. Not 20 years.
Quote from: sandy on September 08, 2019, 01:14:56 PM
So she went to talk to Blair and was not stopped at the door. The Constitution did not stop them from speaking. Diana's life was not ended with the divorce and she was carving a role for herself. I think it is great she could have lived on the divorce settlement. But she can't win, if she tries to carve a new role she's criticized if she sat in her home living off the money she would be criticized in some circles.
Diana died a year after the divorce. Not 20 years.
I dnt know why you keep sayng this. We know she didn't live 20 years, sadly. We don't know what role she might have carved, but the trouble is that based on the last few years of her life, she seemed to be erratic, to be cutting down on her charity work rather than getting more involved. She did spend more time NOT doing much charity work..Jephson said that he tried to find projects for her to do, but that when Diana realised that they were things she had to commit to, she tended to lose interest...
I say it because you appear to be making conclusions about Diana and based on only a year of life left.
She was not "erratic" an "erratic person" would not win the admiration of Mandela and Mother Teresa among others. Diana even won an award her last year on earth and she won praise for selling her iconic outfits for Charity.
Jephson quit his job with Diana and earned money off the book about her. He is no authority.
I don't get why you want to see the worst in Diana. ANd the woman died so nothing is known about what she would have "done."
If Diana "lost interest," she'd sit home and live off the divorce money.
But she did "sit at home" a lot. I wish she had been able to or felt able to take up a more vigiorous career in charity work.. -but she didn't.
Since Jepshon worked for her, I presume he knew what it was like to work for her and that she wasn't very good at committing to seeing a project through. I think she was burned out, by the last few years and she just didn't feel able to stick to things. But the trouble was that this did not look good to charities or art organisations looking for someone to see a project trhough. Her AIDS charity said the same thing.. that she wold not say "yes or no" when asked to come to an event.. and so they began to leave her out of things. Once that happened.. she was being reduced to just a name on the letter heading which was what she had claimed to want to avoid.
Regardless of her being "burned out" she was not idle IMO.
It's ok to feel tired from time to time, and she had a heavy workload plus an intense private life what with the divorce and all.
On the whole I think she did good, IMO.
Not many people can claim that in one year: they call attention to dangers of landmines, they get praised by Nelson Mandela, they win an award, and sell gowns for charity. Diana did quite well for herself in that one year re:reaching out to causes and charity work.
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Quote from: amabel on September 08, 2019, 01:27:47 PM
But she did "sit at home" a lot. I wish she had been able to or felt able to take up a more vigiorous career in charity work.. -but she didn't.
Since Jepshon worked for her, I presume he knew what it was like to work for her and that she wasn't very good at committing to seeing a project through. I think she was burned out, by the last few years and she just didn't feel able to stick to things. But the trouble was that this did not look good to charities or art organisations looking for someone to see a project trhough. Her AIDS charity said the same thing.. that she wold not say "yes or no" when asked to come to an event.. and so they began to leave her out of things. Once that happened.. she was being reduced to just a name on the letter heading which was what she had claimed to want to avoid.
Not really. She did travel to Greece with Rosa Monckton, she took a trip to the US to receive and award, she met with Mother Teresa, she met with Mandela, she sold her gowns for charity and called attention to Landmines. She hardly "sat home" but people do have to go home sometimes after all. She did not sit and spend money and shop shop shop with the money. She did work.
Diana went through much stress leading up to the divorce and she was finding her footing. I don't notice those charities condemning her, they showed up at her funeral and paid tribute to her.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 08, 2019, 08:48:08 PM
Regardless of her being "burned out" she was not idle IMO.
It's ok to feel tired from time to time, and she had a heavy workload plus an intense private life what with the divorce and all.
On the whole I think she did good, IMO.
She didn't have a heavier workload than other royals, when she was still a working Princess.. and after her divorce she had no official role.. and had cut down her charities so she did not have that much work
She was no longer HRH so she had no royal duties. She only had a year left after the divorce. I don't think she should be judged that way. She had a lot of activities and achievements in that last year.
Quote from: sandy on September 09, 2019, 12:09:10 PM
She was no longer HRH so she had no royal duties. She only had a year left after the divorce. I don't think she should be judged that way. She had a lot of activities and achievements in that last year.
Yes indeed Sandy, as you say she was no longer HRH or royal so she had no royal duties. She did take up new activities, like the Landmines campaign - but she then said that she was thinking of dropping the landmines with the REd Cross and moving on to another charity project. She did work for an AIDS charity in the US while not doing much for her own AIDS charity in the UK. She was being erratic and it was hard to be sure if she would stick to any project she had taken up. That was the problem. She was burned out and probably needed time off.. but If she had disappeared from public view in the charity world.. and taken time to try and get herself better, she might have found that the Press were all the more "after her" to see what romances she was having. or that eventually they would lose interest altogether...
She was "thinking" about it does not mean she would have abandoned it. Her death date was August 31, 1997 so she did not even live through the whole year of 1997.
She was not erratic. that is your take on her.
She stuck to plenty of projects. And saw them through. If she were a "flibberty gibbet" Mandela would not have praised her publicly nor would have Mother Teresa.
She was not burned out.
She was still a young woman and unfortunately did not live beyond age 36.
Quote from: amabel on September 09, 2019, 06:58:01 AM
She didn't have a heavier workload than other royals, when she was still a working Princess.. and after her divorce she had no official role.. and had cut down her charities so she did not have that much work
Cutting down charities doesn't necessarily mean not having that much work IMO.
She was very focused on the charities that she had. The land mine issue was a tough issue and she dug her heels in so to speak, and managed to get the ball rolling.
At the same time she was focused on the aids issue and tried to get an international collaboration to combat it. She sold her gowns to raise money, which must have taken time.
She was engaged in the issue of homelessness and helped raise awareness to it. She also raised awareness for different medical centres, causes and hospital.
She was quite a busy lady IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 10, 2019, 07:47:30 PM
Cutting down charities doesn't necessarily mean not having that much work IMO.
She was very focused on the charities that she had. The land mine issue was a tough issue and she dug her heels in so to speak, and managed to get the ball rolling.
At the same time she was focused on the aids issue and tried to get an international collaboration to combat it. She sold her gowns to raise money, which must have taken time.
She was engaged in the issue of homelessness and helped raise awareness to it. She also raised awareness for different medical centres, causes and hospital.
She was quite a busy lady IMO.
Yes it did mean less work. She had cut down from full time royal work.. and had dropped 100 charities and only kept 6.
She didn't do a lot for her AIDS Charity as I have now said many times. She did a few appearances for an American AIDS charity while her British one, which was under her patronage.. was annoyed that they could not get her to commit to coming to events.
She wasn't all that busy in her last year.. She had taken up the Landmines issue with the Red cross and done some work for it.. but it was not clear how much more she would have done.. sicne she told Richard Kay she was thinking of dropping the Red Cross and setting up a chain of Hospices with M Al Fayed.
She was a latecomer to the Landmines issue. Other people had been working on this issue for a long time.. and Diana just got involved with it in the last year of her life..
She cut down "royal" work because she was no longer an HRH and not doing royal work anymore.
The men she visited with AIDS spoke very highly of Diana.
Richard Kay is not the one who "said it" he said Diana "told him". I am dubious of his account. I covered this before and Diana did not need Al Fayed to do her charity work much less have him set up as a sponsor. Al Fayed may have mentioned it in passing but I don't think there were any serious talks about it. And Al Fayed was hoping for a wedding for Dodi and Diana which I don't think would have happened.
Better late than never. Diana was a world famous person and it did not hurt for her to call attention to it.
Just got involved in the last year of her life? She had no clue she was going to die in August. Plus as a royal she probably would not have been permitted to do this.
I don't get the dismissal of Diana's works this way.
Richard Kay "said" she said it but Diana is dead and can't refute it.
why would RIchard Kay make something up? He had no reason to mention the possiblities of her changing what charity work she did... and if he did so I'd imagine it was because Diana spoke to him about it durng their last phone call.. just as she spoke of her romance with Dodi.
Yes Diana was not doing royal work as a Princess any longer.. She was concentrating on a few charities. Unfortunatley she did not give them the dediciated attention that perhaps they hoped for, given that she had cut down in order to do more "in depth" work. In relation to her AIDS Charity, she was expected as Patron to go ot events which would draw attenton to the work of the charity. THey found that she wouldn't commit to coming to these events and as they said "they began to leave her out of things".
and yes she only got involved with the Landmines issue in the last year of her life because Bill Deedes suggested it to her.. She drew attention to it and then apparelty told RIch Kay that she was going to give up the Red Cross work.. in favour of working with MAF.
He might have spun it a certain way. why wouldn't he perhaps exaggerate or embellish some throwaway comment Diana made to him? Seward claimed rather dubious "quotes" from Diana after Diana died. Diana was not around to refute or correct. Diana made these comments at a stage in her life where she was dating Dodi and friendly with his father. Dodi's dad was avid for a marriage and maybe off handedly said he could help Diana by contributing money. which is hardly any substantial decree. No Fayed Foundation was ever done, Diana never said she would marry Dodi or accept money from his father, none of this happened. She died on August 31, 1997.
I find it absurd of Kay to say this and in bad taste, considering Diana and Dodi died and there was nothing for Mohammed to allegedly contribute to. Diana also managed her charity work by raising money. If she were so dependent on Mr Al Fayed she'd have kept those gowns and let Fayed foot her charity bills.
Diana died before the end of 1997, I don't get why she is criticized t his way. She died young. It's like saying James Dean would have been a flop in pictures after he died in his early 20s.
Deedes could have suggested it but she did not have to listen. How is it known that she did not mull this over herself? She went out and did something. Rather than just thinking it was a good idea.
I don't believe she'd give up her work to work with MAF. This is very dubious to me and none of her friends ever claimed she said this or indicated this.
Well Richard Kay says that SHE said it.. that she wanted to give up the Red Cross and move on to another project. With MAF.
MAF never even said he was going to be in a Project with Diana. He never said this. And certainly if there were any grain of truth he'd have made it public after his son and Diana passed away. None of Diana's friends said it either. I think Kay spun some possible throwaway comment he got from Diana. Richard Kay is not the Oracle. He wants to be "relevant"
As I recall MAF said that Dodi and Diana were going to be married.. that Diana had left a message for him, with a nurse.. (I THINK he said she was pregnant)? That Diana and Dodi were going to live in the WIndsor Villa...and that they had spent a lot of time there, just before her death, looking at the place.. (video evidence proved that they had not spent that long there at all).
MAF was not interested in charity foundations except insofar as they furthered his social ambition.. so he was harldy likely to tlak about it after Di's Death. He wanted the world to believe that Diana was in love with Dodi and that they had been planning on getting married. He MIGHT have shelled out for a charity foundation if she had lived.. IF she was going to marry Dodi, but he was not into the whole thing himself and it would only have been to persuade Diana into a marriage.
MAF said a lot of things. Diana was quoted by a friend (Monckton?) she needed another marriage like a bad rash. Diana is not around to refute anything people say or claim. It is immaterial what MAF wanted or claimed, any dreams he had ended on August 31, 1997 and most likely Diana would have moved on. I doubt she'd have rushed into a second marriage that quickly.
I think it would be likely he'd talk about the foundation. If any such idea ever existed.
Why would he have persuaded Diana into a marriage? If Diana did not want another marriage she would not have gone into one. Trying is not getting.
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:13:56 PM
MAF said a lot of things. Diana was quoted by a friend (Monckton?) she needed another marriage like a bad rash. Diana is not around to refute anything people say or claim. It is immaterial what MAF wanted or claimed, any dreams he had ended on August 31, 1997 and most likely Diana would have moved on. I doubt she'd have rushed into a second marriage that quickly.
I think it would be likely he'd talk about the foundation. If any such idea ever existed.
Why would he have persuaded Diana into a marriage? If Diana did not want another marriage she would not have gone into one. Trying is not getting.
Why would he have persuaded Diana into a marriage? Really? Because he wanted her to marry Dodi. He wanted to connect his family ot the British aristocracy and the RF. He might have hoped that an offer or suggestion of a large donation or setting up a charity foundation would have made Diana willing to consider Dodi as a husband and have her seeing herself "doing her work" for the Foundation with Dodi at her side.
However when she died, He was able to tell the world that they had been engaged.. and that They had planned a life in the Windsor villa and that Diana had entrusted a nurse with a last message for him.. to pass on to her family....Ten he was off on his fantasy about how Dodi and Di had been killed because they were planning on getting married. MAF wasn't interested in talking about them doing charity wrok.. He had better stories to put out to the world...
My point: He could not have persuaded Diana into a marriage. Period. She may not have wanted one and I doubt would go into a marriage because it made her boyfriend's father happy.
He could see himself as Emperor of the Universe but I think this "charity" was a dream of his and he was counting chickens before they were hatched so to speak. He had the plans but the couple died and Diana could have said no and I think she would have.
I don't get why you think he'd skip the charity work as something to talk publicly about , it would give some "credence" in his mind that Dodi and Diana were going to get married and work side by side. I think it was fake news by Kay and none of Diana's friends mentioned t his.
No she may not have wanted to marry Dodi..but she was having an affair with him, being publicly seen with him and acting like they were an item. So it is harldy surprising that an ambitious man like MAF mght have suggested donations to a charity, in hopes of getting her to seal the deal.
An affair? They were dating. Why must it be called an affair? He was referred to as her boyfriend. Affair implies different things.
MAF may have suggested it but it did not mean Diana had to do it.
Quote from: sandy on September 11, 2019, 03:49:45 PM
An affair? They were dating. Why must it be called an affair? He was referred to as her boyfriend. Affair implies different things.
MAF may have suggested it but it did not mean Diana had to do it.
Nobody said she had to do it. But she was acting like Dodi was a serious love interest. She was staying wth him, presumably sleeping with him.. and it was easy at first for MAF ot put forward his insistence that they were engaged. And he was clearly very eager to promote a marriage, getting rid of Dodi's live in fianc?e to make way for Dodi to court Diana.
It seemed like a serious affair.. and one that might have ended in marriage.. until after her death stories emerged of MAF giving Kelly Fisher the push, Diana's saying to various friends that she didn't want to remarry.. etc.
Its indubitable that MAF wanted the marriage.. and would have made a big effort to push his son and Diana into wedlock... so I don't know why you can't believe that he might have suggested a charity foundation or that Diana might talked about having one fo her own and he offered to fund it
Quote from: amabel on September 11, 2019, 07:16:07 AM
Yes it did mean less work. She had cut down from full time royal work.. and had dropped 100 charities and only kept 6.
She didn't do a lot for her AIDS Charity as I have now said many times. She did a few appearances for an American AIDS charity while her British one, which was under her patronage.. was annoyed that they could not get her to commit to coming to events.
She wasn't all that busy in her last year.. She had taken up the Landmines issue with the Red cross and done some work for it.. but it was not clear how much more she would have done.. sicne she told Richard Kay she was thinking of dropping the Red Cross and setting up a chain of Hospices with M Al Fayed.
She was a latecomer to the Landmines issue. Other people had been working on this issue for a long time.. and Diana just got involved with it in the last year of her life..
Less charities does not mean less work. It's not necessarily about the quantity. If she had hundreds and hundreds of charities she perhaps would just visit them once or twice a year and the attention would not be so great.
Her not being in the RF meant that she didn't have to do it their way. The RF has staff of many people who can help run the "show".
Richard Kay also said that he was convinced (if i'm not mistaken) that her and Fayed would get married. Later on he said that this was his
impression. He could have drawn other conclusions that weren't necessarily accurate. We only get to hear his version. Diana is not here to give her take. We have to keep this in mind.
I don't think that she needed MAF for Charity. My personal opinion is that she felt a certain safety in being with his family (knowing him for so long) and getting away from a tumultuous relationship. I think that she was relaxed and happy, and that it was just what she needed. Perhaps discussions and suggestions came up. That does not mean it would lead to something serious. We all discuss things with family or friends from time to time. It does not mean that we always act upon it, or agree with it, and Diana's no different. We simply don't know.
Diana coming in the charity only in the last year of her life does not mean she didn't give her all, or that she didn't make an impact. She fought for the issue to be brought to the forefront and it clearly had an effect. So her reasoning was clearly logical IMO since her remaining charities flourished so to speak.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 11, 2019, 07:09:07 PM
Less charities does not mean less work. It's not necessarily about the quantity. If she had hundreds and hundreds of charities she perhaps would just visit them once or twice a year and the attention would not be so great.
Her not being in the RF meant that she didn't have to do it their way. The RF has staff of many people who can help run the "show".
Richard Kay also said that he was convinced (if i'm not mistaken) that her and Fayed would get married. Later on he said that this was his impression. He could have drawn other conclusions that weren't necessarily accurate. We only get to hear his version. Diana is not here to give her take. We have to keep this in mind.
I don't think that she needed MAF for Charity. My personal opinion is that she felt a certain safety in being with his family (knowing him for so long) and getting away from a tumultuous relationship. I think that she was relaxed and happy, and that it was just what she needed. Perhaps discussions and suggestions came up. That does not mean it would lead to something serious. We all discuss things with family or friends from time to time. It does not mean that we always act upon it, or agree with it, and Diana's no different. We simply don't know.
Diana coming in the charity only in the last year of her life does not mean she didn't give her all, or that she didn't make an impact. She fought for the issue to be brought to the forefront and it clearly had an effect. So her reasoning was clearly logical IMO since her remaining charities flourished so to speak.
But as I've said Diana did not do a lot for the small number of charities she kept. She may not have seriously intentded to drop the Red Cross but who knows? I think that to Kay, who was a newspaper journalist, she kept up the idea that she and Dodi were an item.. but to some of her friends she said it was just a summer romance. She told him she didn't want to rush into marriage but she clearly gave him an idea that she was involved iwht Dodi and with his family...#
She may well have considered the idea of a charity foundation if she was considering Dodi as a husband.. but clearly she was very unsure whether she wanted to be with him permanently..
Yes indeed, who knows, since the woman never got a chance to live her life after August 31, 1997.
Only Diana and Dodi knew the exact nature. Diana did say she was not rushing into another marriage to her friends.
Considering is not necessarily a Firm Plan.
Quote from: amabel on September 12, 2019, 09:37:29 AM
But as I've said Diana did not do a lot for the small number of charities she kept. She may not have seriously intentded to drop the Red Cross but who knows? I think that to Kay, who was a newspaper journalist, she kept up the idea that she and Dodi were an item.. but to some of her friends she said it was just a summer romance. She told him she didn't want to rush into marriage but she clearly gave him an idea that she was involved iwht Dodi and with his family...#
She may well have considered the idea of a charity foundation if she was considering Dodi as a husband.. but clearly she was very unsure whether she wanted to be with him permanently..
She did an enormous amount IMO.
Regardless of whether she intended to carry on with the red cross or not, she was very serious about her charities and would continue to be so.
We don't know what Diana spoke to Kay about. Unless he has a recording of the conversation we can only rely on his version. Why would Diana convince Kay that her and Fayed were an "item"? The whole world could see that they were involved. So there was no need for that.
She did not tell Kay that she would not rush into marriage, otherwise he wouldn't say that he thought that they would get married. He perhaps sensed that she was happy and optimistic and drew his own conclusions based on her general state of mind, IMO.
As for the length of the relationship, only Diana knew how long she intended to carry on.
Diana did not need Fayed to carry on with charity. She, most likely IMO, would not have married Fayed. It was not that serious IMO.
She didn't. She had dropped her large portfolio of charities and did not do that much for the ones she had left. She got involved with the REd Cross over landmines and did some good work in the last year of her life.. but it is not clear whether she was going to go on with it.
Why would Kay mention MAF and a chain of hospices unless Diana had said something to that effect?
As I recall, Kay said that Di had said that she wasn't rushing into anything.. but she asked questions about the public attitude to Dodi and MAF.. (sorry I cant' recall exactly which). But as I recall, it was something on the lines of asking Kay why the Fayeds got such bad press. Which suggests to me that she was fishing. She wasn't sure if she wanted to stay with Dodi.. and had told her friends it was a summer romance. However having made it very public to the press, she could harldy say that to a pressman. SO I think she was genuinely wondering why the Pres and public attitude to MAF and dodi was so negative and working towards a careful disengagement with them...but she cuod only do so gradually.. So possibly she did consider some kind of charity project that MAF would finance.
She was no longer in the RF and had to find her own way of doing things. The RF can have hundreds of charities because of the great support they get from all kinds of staff. Diana had only been divorced for a year max and was starting to land on her feet so to speak.
She did indeed do a great amount for her charities. She traveled to nations afflicted by the landmines and drew attention to their plight and helped get discussions started. She also traveled to meet world leaders to discuss how to combat the aids problems, and she was in the beginning of talks with them at how she could be of use. She auctioned of her gowns to raise money, participated in activities to help raise money to various causes, focused on the homelessness issue and brought attention to it. I mean, the list goes on and on. Not bad for a woman who did not have the resources that the RF had.
Diana said this to Monckton and not Kay if I'm not mistaken. Her asking Kay about why the Fayeds had a bad reputation indicates that she made her judgements about them as family friends, i.e. based on her own experience of them.
If she had not known them previously and had taken into account their "reputation" chances are that she would not have gotten involved at all. But since she knew them since way back, she was sincere in her affection for them, and judged them based on this. IMO.
Diana was dating Fayed. She was not "making a show" for the press but rather behaving as people do when they date, i.e. being "physical" with each other.
I think that Diana moved on from a previous (and somewhat unhealthy) relationship and became fond of Fayed and took it from there, but I don't think that she was all that serious about him IMO.
I thinkt he relationship with Dodi was the unhealthy one.. a man who had just ditched his girlfriend at his father's orders.. and who had enver held down a job, was hardly likely to be an ideal partner if Di was serious about becoming a philanthropist
And Diana DID say to Kay that she didn't want another marriage.. She seems to have said it to several people..
you do know that Diana had an office as part of her divorce settlement, paid for the RF?
I don't think that the relationship with Fayed was unhealthy in the sense that it followed a "normal" trajectory, i.e. she was publicly courted and he wanted to be seen with her. Having a partner that does not want to be seen with you, and does not want to settle into a defined relationship (thus leading to be seen together etc.) is not normal or healthy. My guess is that she broke away from that situation and found her life as a "free" woman enjoyable. This is perfectly ordinary, to be honest.
I think that she has happy with Fayed. But it does not mean that she would have married him, and I don't think that she would have, IMO. She was having fun in a general sense, and enjoying herself.
Diana did not say to Kay that she wouldn't get married to Fayed, otherwise he would not have claimed that it was his belief that they would have gotten married. Kay getting that impression is a testament to Diana's sense of happiness or joyfulness in that period. IMO.
Diana having an office does not mean that she had the same amount of staff or "machinery" at her disposal as the rest of the RF. She didn't. Which made it all the more remarkable what she achieved in her last year. IMO.
sicne she had far less charities than most senior royals I would say that an office with handsome expenses was sufficient to support her in her work.
She said that she didn't need a new marriage but Kay said that he did think she would get further involved since she did not deny the relationship. however from her comments to her friends, it does not sound to me like she was at all sure about Dodi or committed to him. And if she padi the slightest heed to the many reports about his behaviour I am sure she would have dropped him fairly soon. Debts never being paid, another woman to whom he was engaged, a past of using drugs.. no job? Oh yes a domineering father who ordered him around and who had pressed him to court her...
I hardly think a few public kisses would make up for all that. Diana was I think mildly engaged with Dodi at first.. and enjoyed beig with him. ANd as she usually she did shut her mind to the problems.. but its clear that she was getting irritated wit him, with his disorganised messy way of life, with the conspicuous consumption..
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 11:57:04 AM
I thinkt he relationship with Dodi was the unhealthy one.. a man who had just ditched his girlfriend at his father's orders.. and who had enver held down a job, was hardly likely to be an ideal partner if Di was serious about becoming a philanthropist
And Diana DID say to Kay that she didn't want another marriage.. She seems to have said it to several people..
you do know that Diana had an office as part of her divorce settlement, paid for the RF?
Dodi's ex wife had only good things to say about him. Diana and Dodi were dating.
If Dodi had been truly in love with Kelly his father would not have been listened to. He should not have gotten engaged to a woman her perhaps felt lukewarm about in the first place.
Diana said she did want another marriage...but not right away. I don't think she eliminated the possibility of marriage. She had to find Mr Right.
Double post auto-merged: September 13, 2019, 12:32:29 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 12:14:50 PM
I don't think that the relationship with Fayed was unhealthy in the sense that it followed a "normal" trajectory, i.e. she was publicly courted and he wanted to be seen with her. Having a partner that does not want to be seen with you, and does not want to settle into a defined relationship (thus leading to be seen together etc.) is not normal or healthy. My guess is that she broke away from that situation and found her life as a "free" woman enjoyable. This is perfectly ordinary, to be honest.
I think that she has happy with Fayed. But it does not mean that she would have married him, and I don't think that she would have, IMO. She was having fun in a general sense, and enjoying herself.
Diana did not say to Kay that she wouldn't get married to Fayed, otherwise he would not have claimed that it was his belief that they would have gotten married. Kay getting that impression is a testament to Diana's sense of happiness or joyfulness in that period. IMO.
Diana having an office does not mean that she had the same amount of staff or "machinery" at her disposal as the rest of the RF. She didn't. Which made it all the more remarkable what she achieved in her last year. IMO.
Diana was with Khan who did not want to go public. Diana probably felt good that Dodi did want to be seen with her and she enjoyed their Summer. There was nothing unhealthy about it.
If Diana had eventually decided to marry Dodi I doubt it would have been "right away" She may have dated him and then decided whether or not he was really Mr Right.
I hardly think it was much comfort that Dodi "went public" with her when she realised as she msut have done - that he had an angry ex fianc?e in the background..thtat he had been a drug user (Since she was very hot against drug and drink abuse)..and that he was "going public" with her because his father was ordering it
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 12:22:12 PM
sicne she had far less charities than most senior royals I would say that an office with handsome expenses was sufficient to support her in her work.
She said that she didn't need a new marriage but Kay said that he did think she would get further involved since she did not deny the relationship. however from her comments to her friends, it does not sound to me like she was at all sure about Dodi or committed to him. And if she padi the slightest heed to the many reports about his behaviour I am sure she would have dropped him fairly soon. Debts never being paid, another woman to whom he was engaged, a past of using drugs.. no job? Oh yes a domineering father who ordered him around and who had pressed him to court her...
I hardly think a few public kisses would make up for all that. Diana was I think mildly engaged with Dodi at first.. and enjoyed beig with him. ANd as she usually she did shut her mind to the problems.. but its clear that she was getting irritated wit him, with his disorganised messy way of life, with the conspicuous consumption..
Yes, but her office was not that "great" in comparison to other senior royals. She perhaps had far less, but the charities she took on were "meaty" and substansial and required effort, which she met, IMO.
These are Kays opinions on the matter. No one knows how the relationship would evolve. We can only make educated guesses. IMO. I personally believe that she felt at ease with the Fayeds because she had known them since before, and was happy in dating. I don't believe however that Diana would marry Fayed.
Fayed's debts were settled by his father, and he probably knew that they would. I don't believe that used any substance while with Diana. He was in a relationship with another woman, possibly engaged but decided to leave her. In an unfortunate way, but he left her nonetheless. MAF was indeed domineering but I personally believe that Fayed was eager to date Diana and was pleased when his father suggested it.
Now, one could argue that Diana would perhaps take into account all of those things and decide against marriage with Fayed. But I personally don't believe that she got/would go that far. I think she was having fun, and dating in a safe enviroment. I don't think that her feelings were so strong as to merit any thoughts about getting serious, i.e. getting married. But this is just my take on it of course.
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 01:16:24 PM
I hardly think it was much comfort that Dodi "went public" with her when she realised as she msut have done - that he had an angry ex fianc?e in the background..thtat he had been a drug user (Since she was very hot against drug and drink abuse)..and that he was "going public" with her because his father was ordering it
Dodi probably tod Diana it was over with Kelly--it was his word against hers. He denied that they were still together when he spoke to her over the phone.
He had given up drugs and was not a "user" when he dated Diana. She led a healthy life and would not have been with him he he was a "user."
Diana did find comfort by all accounts, she was dating Dodi and though she tried very hard, Khan never wanted to go public with her.
Her charities were no more "meaty" than other royals' charities and her office was paid for by her Ex husband's family which I think was pretty generous of them - and was adequate since she only had 6 charities. She didn't really make a great effort - She was capable fo doing things but she wasn't good at sustained effort, once she had lost the support of the whole Royal machine...
She had chosen those 6 charities... and then did not stick ot them solidly.
As for Dodi, do you really think she was likely to be happy with him for longer than a couple of weeks, when she still did not know him well? She was deadly against heavy drinking and drug abuse.. even turning sharply on her own mother once she started drinking... Do you think she'd be happy for long with someone who had been a c*ke user? or soemone who had a woman who believed they were getting married.. and who didn't even have the decency to go and see the girl and tell her it was off?
and Dodi had something like ?100k a month as far as I know.. yet he ran up debts which his father had to settle. even for a few weeks fun, he was harldy much of a catch
Diana was no longer a working royal office or no office. She also could keep the KP apartments she had as part of the settlement. I think she was due this and it was nothing "extraordinary" on the part of the royals. She "only" had six charities because she was not an HRH and was going through a transition. The Queen may have wanted the charities redistributed to those who had the HRHs and were not divorced like Diana was.
She died on August 31, 1997 for all we know she could have taken on some of the charities she dropped.
Dodi by all accounts was not doing drugs when he dated Diana. I don't know why it was assumed he was still doing them when he dated Diana. He was around Diana's sons and if he showed the slightest sign, I think diana would have left the yacht with her sons immediately.
Dodi's ex wife had nothing but good things to say about him. Diana did not get engaged to or marry the man, she was dating him. I don't see that as a "problem."
It would have been a different scenario had Diana not gotten a divorce and dropped the charities then. She was the ex wife of the Prince of Wales, different status. I don't see why it was "bad" for her to regroup. And she died only a year after the divorce. As I said, it's like saying James Dean would have been a flop in films when the man died in his early twenties.
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 01:39:16 PM
Her charities were no more "meaty" than other royals' charities and her office was paid for by her Ex husband's family which I think was pretty generous of them - and was adequate since she only had 6 charities. She didn't really make a great effort - She was capable fo doing things but she wasn't good at sustained effort, once she had lost the support of the whole Royal machine...
She had chosen those 6 charities... and then did not stick ot them solidly.
As for Dodi, do you really think she was likely to be happy with him for longer than a couple of weeks, when she still did not know him well? She was deadly against heavy drinking and drug abuse.. even turning sharply on her own mother once she started drinking... Do you think she'd be happy for long with someone who had been a c*ke user? or soemone who had a woman who believed they were getting married.. and who didn't even have the decency to go and see the girl and tell her it was off?
and Dodi had something like ?100k a month as far as I know.. yet he ran up debts which his father had to settle. even for a few weeks fun, he was harldy much of a catch
It?s was part of the divorce settlement I believe.
Because of her divorce she had to find her own way. Not everyone does charities by taking on hundreds of them. Diana tried to find a way forward.
She had six charities but did a lot for them and with them. She did make a great effort. She read up on the subjects and got involved on different levels. So although she only had six charities, they did take up her time. And they was not "easy" charities. They were about heavy issues and she faced criticism and yet she pushed on.
She was happy for the time being, which was my point. No one knows how long they would carry on dating, but while they did she seemed content. I don't think that he was a candidate for marriage. They were just dating.
the queen had nothing to do with Diana's dropping her charities. She probably expected that Diana would give them up in due course but give them a bit of notice. but I don't think she was very concerned. in the divorce settlement it was left to Diana to decided if she wanted a public role.. provided she checked out with the Foreign office over trips abroad.
Diana was the one who chose to drop them.. and she harldy needed a big office with only 6 charities.
Diana claimed that she gave up the charities so as to leave them free to seek a patron with an HRH.. so she was hardly likely to take them up again was she? Sicne she was not an HRH?
As for Dodi, given that Diana was very much against drugs and drink and had What some have called "Old Testament" views on drunk driving.. do you really think she'd be happy with an ex drug user?
Double post auto-merged: September 13, 2019, 02:16:43 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 02:04:34 PM
It?s was part of the divorce settlement I believe.
Because of her divorce she had to find her own way. Not everyone does charities by taking on hundreds of them. Diana tried to find a way forward.
She had six charities but did a lot for them and with them. She did make a great effort. She read up on the subjects and got involved on different levels. So although she only had six charities, they did take up her time. And they was not "easy" charities. They were about heavy issues and she faced criticism and yet she pushed on.
She was happy for the time being, which was my point. No one knows how long they would carry on dating, but while they did she seemed content. I don't think that he was a candidate for marriage. They were just dating.
I dont think they did take up her time. She wasn't seen at engagements very often in the last year or 2..
And really do you think she was likely to go being happy with Dodi after she got to know him...or rather let herself think about his many issues? She msut have begun to realise that he was a weak spoiled hapless man child.. dominated by his father, who ran his life.. And while it was attractive at first to have a boyfriend who had time to take her out, it must have begun to dawn on her that there was a Girlfirend in the recent past, who was suing him for breach of promise and that there was a very short gap - wel no gap at al between his leaving Kelly without so much as a goodbye and moving on to court her, Diana. Then did she Really want a boyfriend who had to get his father to pay his bills even though he had a very comfortable income?
She was divorced in 1996 she would not be seen doing royal work.
Whatever happened between them is known only to them. Dodi was not some sort of a "villain" as far as I'm concerned. She never said anything about marrying him. As I said, Dodi probably gave Diana his side of the story. And told Diana he and Kelly were over. Kelly never blamed Diana.
I think she had the most heartbreak with Prince Charles.
Quote from: sandy on September 13, 2019, 02:22:50 PM
She was divorced in 1996 she would not be seen doing royal work.
Whatever happened between them is known only to them. Dodi was not some sort of a "villain" as far as I'm concerned. She never said anything about marrying him. As I said, Dodi probably gave Diana his side of the story. And told Diana he and Kelly were over. Kelly never blamed Diana.
I think she had the most heartbreak with Prince Charles.
Who said she was doing royal work? She had 6 charities.. which she kept out of personal choice.. so I assumed at the time that she had a sincere wish to get more deeply involved in a few charities that were special to her... but she did not commit to them fully. She was according to the AIDS charity, more taken up with her private life than with the work they had hoped she'd do.
As for Dodi, I don't know what you wodl call him. He never paid his bills. HE had been a drug abuser. He had never had any kind of steady work...
when his father said Jump, Dodi Jumped.. because Dad paid the bills.
he did NOT tell Kelly that the affair was over and that they weren't now getting married.. he Left it to MAF to "brutally" give her the news. Then he feebly told her that he HAD broken it off with her weeks earlier, which plainy was not the case.
When? Why don't you read up on what she did the last year. She did much in that one year. And being admired by Mandela is a tribute to her.
Maybe she didn't have a choice and was told that royal family members would take on some of her charities.
He "had been" a drug abuser. he was not then. I think he should be given credit for kicking the habit. He did work. And his father paid the bills.
What happened was between Dodi and Kelly. Diana was not blamed and apparently she accepted his story that he and Kelly were over.
Diana did not spend the whole year dating Dodi. She had an active 1997 and did not live beyond August 31, 1997. I really think the woman should be cut some slack here.
no, he didn't work, (Dodi). he had a couple of attempts at some kind of work but they never lasted. ANd a man of 40 with a handsome trust fund could not pay his bills?
Diana chose to give up the charities herself. It had nothing to do with the RF.. Her PR adviser Jane Atkinson tired to dissuade her from giving them up so suddenly . but Diana wanted to...
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 02:07:38 PM
I dont think they did take up her time. She wasn't seen at engagements very often in the last year or 2..
And really do you think she was likely to go being happy with Dodi after she got to know him...or rather let herself think about his many issues? She msut have begun to realise that he was a weak spoiled hapless man child.. dominated by his father, who ran his life.. And while it was attractive at first to have a boyfriend who had time to take her out, it must have begun to dawn on her that there was a Girlfirend in the recent past, who was suing him for breach of promise and that there was a very short gap - wel no gap at al between his leaving Kelly without so much as a goodbye and moving on to court her, Diana. Then did she Really want a boyfriend who had to get his father to pay his bills even though he had a very comfortable income?
No one is without flaws. She was only dating him. I doubt that they would get serious, and I think that she would have moved on eventually. IMO.
Quote from: amabel on September 13, 2019, 05:13:38 PM
no, he didn't work, (Dodi). he had a couple of attempts at some kind of work but they never lasted. ANd a man of 40 with a handsome trust fund could not pay his bills?
Diana chose to give up the charities herself. It had nothing to do with the RF.. Her PR adviser Jane Atkinson tired to dissuade her from giving them up so suddenly . but Diana wanted to...
He worked. He did have jobs.
But Diana only dated him.
Jane must h ave realized Diana would not have the same work expectations since she was divorced from Prince Charles. NO matter what Jane said she could not have thought Diana could continue the same work patterns after the divorce.
It had plenty to do with the royal family. HM might have wanted to re-assign Diana's charities to others in the family. This is all a moot point since Diana died. Jane must have realized that.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 13, 2019, 08:40:53 PM
No one is without flaws. She was only dating him. I doubt that they would get serious, and I think that she would have moved on eventually. IMO.
There are flaws and flaws. All of us have flaws but we have good points. Dodi seems ot have had very little to recommend him but his father's wealth.. and his being a good natured sort of person. I think he was fond of dogs and rescued a couple...
He was stupid, he had no ambition or ability to stick to any sort of work. HIs only real occupation was playboy and I think that that suited Di for a few weeks.. that she ahd a boyfriend who was there all the time to amuse her, and who had weatlh (his father's) to buy her presents and make her life comfortable. But it is hard to imagine that such a relationship would be very satisfactory for more than a short time.. esp when Diana realised about the unpaid bills, the girlfriend, the drugs in the past.. and the fact that MAF would be interfering in their lives..
Double post auto-merged: September 14, 2019, 07:33:05 AM
Quote from: sandy on September 13, 2019, 10:28:34 PM
He worked. He did have jobs.
But Diana only dated him.
Jane must h ave realized Diana would not have the same work expectations since she was divorced from Prince Charles. NO matter what Jane said she could not have thought Diana could continue the same work patterns after the divorce.
It had plenty to do with the royal family. HM might have wanted to re-assign Diana's charities to others in the family. This is all a moot point since Diana died. Jane must have realized that.
No it had nothing to do with the queen. The queen probably expected Diana to cut back on her patronages in due course.. and then the charities could seek other patrons... but the way it was done, dropping 100 charities just straight after the loss of the HRH upset many of the charities and made diana look bad as if she were petulantly dropping all her work because she no longer had her HRH...
Jane Atkinson left Diana over this or some other issue.. because Diana hired her but would not take her advice. She felt that it would look bad, to let all the charities go so suddenly iwht some of htem finding out by fax or only when they saw it on the TV news. And it did irritate some of the charities who felt let down....
as for Dodi, he didn't have jobs. He went to Sandhurst but did not pursue a career in the army.. I dotn think he even stayed for the whole training course. He dabbled in learning about producing movies but he did not take it very seriously, and did not stick at it.. He was kicked off the set of Chariots of Fire because he was using drugs and trying to pass them around the cast.
How is it known it had nothing to do with the Queen? Diana was no longer an HRH and different status and the QUeen was responsible for changing that status. Diana was going to carve out her own role.
DIana was not 'petulant' she went out and began to regroup after the divorce. I don't get the negative spin on Diana especially since she died on August 31.
Jane was an advisor only. IF she told this to the media she certainly was not a good employee of Diana.
Dodi had employment, look it up.
Dodi got off the drugs.
Diana had a whole new life after the divorce but died about a year later.
Diana merely dated Dodi. ANd both are dead now.
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 07:28:28 AM
There are flaws and flaws. All of us have flaws but we have good points. Dodi seems ot have had very little to recommend him but his father's wealth.. and his being a good natured sort of person. I think he was fond of dogs and rescued a couple...
He was stupid, he had no ambition or ability to stick to any sort of work. HIs only real occupation was playboy and I think that that suited Di for a few weeks.. that she ahd a boyfriend who was there all the time to amuse her, and who had weatlh (his father's) to buy her presents and make her life comfortable. But it is hard to imagine that such a relationship would be very satisfactory for more than a short time.. esp when Diana realised about the unpaid bills, the girlfriend, the drugs in the past.. and the fact that MAF would be interfering in their lives..
We don't know what redeeming qualities he had because the focus has been on portraying him in a certain light. And the reason for that is that it would then reflect poorly on Diana.
I personally don't think that he was a "stellar" guy. But how bad was he and in comparison to whom?
Diana knew him from before and he probably showed his good sides when courting her. So what else would she go by? She dated him because she liked him, IMO and had fun. I don't think there's more to it than that. I don't think it was that "deep".
Prince CHarles I think treated DIana horribly. He was dishonest because he later admitted he did not love DIana when he married her. How low is that? Yet Dodi gets blasted.
Dodi's ex wife had nothing but good things to say to him.
Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 11:33:03 AM
How is it known it had nothing to do with the Queen? Diana was no longer an HRH and different status and the QUeen was responsible for changing that status. Diana was going to carve out her own role.
DIana was not 'petulant' she went out and began to regroup after the divorce. I don't get the negative spin on Diana especially since she died on August 31.
Jane was an advisor only. IF she told this to the media she certainly was not a good employee of Diana.
Dodi had employment, look it up.
Dodi got off the drugs.
Diana had a whole new life after the divorce but died about a year later.
Diana merely dated Dodi. ANd both are dead now.
No he didn't. He went to Sandhurst and left after a short course. he dabbled in learning about film production but did not stick to it. What employment did he have?
Dabbled? How do you know what happened on the day to day work on the set. YOu would need to do a study of what he did during hours, what you get from the tabs is not the same as checking his work record.
Yes, he did have a job. ANd what he did is not necessarily garnered from tabs with negative stories.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 14, 2019, 11:34:47 AM
We don't know what redeeming qualities he had because the focus has been on portraying him in a certain light. And the reason for that is that it would then reflect poorly on Diana.
I personally don't think that he was a "stellar" guy. But how bad was he and in comparison to whom?
Diana knew him from before and he probably showed his good sides when courting her. So what else would she go by? She dated him because she liked him, IMO and had fun. I don't think there's more to it than that. I don't think it was that "deep".
what good side? She only knew him a few weeks..and even in htat time it emerged in the papers that he did not pay his bills, leaving debts everywhere.. htat he had a girlfriend who had been expeciting them to get married and he had left her without even having the decency to tell her...
According to some fo the staff, Diana was getting a bit antsy with him even after that relatively short time of knowing him.. since he complained about little irritants, making a big fuss....I believe she also commented on MAF's role of dominating him.. saying "God is calling" when MAF rang him uip?
She may have enjoyed his taking her out and being free to take her places and buy her things but that is hardly the grounds for a relationship, esp as I think she also found the gift giving embarrassing...
She must have realised that he was dominated by MAF, that the money for the nice gifts and the luxury holidays came from MAF.. and that the Fayeds were really playing her and trying to lure her into becoming Dodi's trophy wife. It is hard to imagine that that would have pleased her once she let herself dwell on it....
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Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 11:46:06 AM
Dabbled? How do you know what happened on the day to day work on the set. YOu would need to do a study of what he did during hours, what you get from the tabs is not the same as checking his work record.
Yes, he did have a job. ANd what he did is not necessarily garnered from tabs with negative stories.
I don't think there are any stories that he was a dedicated student.. esp sicne he was kicked off Chariot's of Fire's set for passing round drugs
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 11:48:49 AM
what good side? She only knew him a few weeks..and even in htat time it emerged in the papers that he did not pay his bills, leaving debts everywhere.. htat he had a girlfriend who had been expeciting them to get married and he had left her without even having the decency to tell her...
According to some fo the staff, Diana was getting a bit antsy with him even after that relatively short time of knowing him.. since he complained about little irritants, making a big fuss....I believe she also commented on MAF's role of dominating him.. saying "God is calling" when MAF rang him uip?
She may have enjoyed his taking her out and being free to take her places and buy her things but that is hardly the grounds for a relationship, esp as I think she also found the gift giving embarrassing...
She must have realised that he was dominated by MAF, that the money for the nice gifts and the luxury holidays came from MAF.. and that the Fayeds were really playing her and trying to lure her into becoming Dodi's trophy wife. It is hard to imagine that that would have pleased her once she let herself dwell on it....
Diana knew the Fayed's for years. There are pictures of them together as early as 1986.
The papers got to digging and found these things out. However, Diana based her judgement, I think, on how he treated her, and what he told her.
She got to know him better on that trip and perhaps discovered things that were not to her liking. She was only dating him and they would not have gotten married IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 14, 2019, 11:55:53 AM
Diana knew the Fayed's for years. There are pictures of them together as early as 1986.
The papers got to digging and found these things out. However, Diana based her judgement, I think, on how he treated her, and what he told her.
She got to know him better on that trip and perhaps discovered things that were not to her liking. She was only dating him and they would not have gotten married IMO.
No I don't believe she knew Dodi before he was sent to court her.. She may have met him a few times but I don't believe there was any friendship with him...
And All he had to do, was to be pleasant, take her away on hols and buy her gifts, so it was hardly that dififcuclt to be pleasant enough to win her interest for a short time. But even In that short time, I think she was getting a little irritated with him.. and did not see the relatioshp as progressing beyond "summer romance" as she told many friends. I think she managed to ignore the press reports bout him.. but she knew that there was not much to him.. and that there wasn't enough for any kind of serous relationship.. so she was probably planning on winding it down once she was back in England
She must've known him to some degree if she interacted with him.
They were dating. And I don't think that her interest in him was so serious as for her to consider these things. She probably discovered more about him, some things that she did not like perhaps, but I don't think it bothered her that much because she had no intent on marrying him, IMO.
I think that she was having fun and took it day by day.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 14, 2019, 12:13:35 PM
She must've known him to some degree if she interacted with him.
They were dating. And I don't think that her interest in him was so serious as for her to consider these things. She probably discovered more about him, some things that she did not like perhaps, but I don't think it bothered her that much because she had no intent on marrying him, IMO.
I think that she was having fun and took it day by day.
well obviously she interacted with him and got to know him. I assume they were lovers...But she was apt to ignore things if she didn't want to see them, particulary about romantic relationships. I think there was a brief attraction.. Dodi was on his best behaviour, and she was looking for someone to entertain her and to distract her.. however I think she turned a blind eye to the stuff that came out in newspapers within a short time.. but as she got to know him, his behaviour like the messy disorganised way he lived, the chopping and changing of arrangements, the irritation he caused to bodyguards.. the way MAF dominated him.. all began to make her realise that he was not a very solid individual and was not likely to be worth keeping on with. So she told her friends it was just a summer romance and she didn't want another marriage...
However she had made the romance very public so she was probably cagy about dropping him too suddenly.. this was after all her first acknowledged public romance, since the end of her marriage..So I think she would have returned to England and then quietly stopped seeing him...
What happened in their relationship is known only to them. They are dead now.
Dodi's ex wife praising him seems to be left out of this. SHe was married to him and though it did not work out she had nothing but good things to say about him.
Diana's thoughts died with her. I don't agree with what you believe she thought. Diana was having a Summer ROmance I doubt she was calculating how to ditch Dodi.
Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 02:16:02 PM
What happened in their relationship is known only to them. They are dead now.
Dodi's ex wife praising him seems to be left out of this. SHe was married to him and though it did not work out she had nothing but good things to say about him.
Diana's thoughts died with her. I don't agree with what you believe she thought. Diana was having a Summer ROmance I doubt she was calculating how to ditch Dodi.
well if it was a summer romance she must have been planning how to ditch Dodi.. since he was clearly being pushed to propose to her and she it seems was pretty definitely not planning on the romance going on
I doubt if Kelly Fisher had "nothing but good things" to say about Dodi who had just walked out on her without so much as a goodbye and thank you.
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 12:40:42 PM
well obviously she interacted with him and got to know him. I assume they were lovers...But she was apt to ignore things if she didn't want to see them, particulary about romantic relationships. I think there was a brief attraction.. Dodi was on his best behaviour, and she was looking for someone to entertain her and to distract her.. however I think she turned a blind eye to the stuff that came out in newspapers within a short time.. but as she got to know him, his behaviour like the messy disorganised way he lived, the chopping and changing of arrangements, the irritation he caused to bodyguards.. the way MAF dominated him.. all began to make her realise that he was not a very solid individual and was not likely to be worth keeping on with. So she told her friends it was just a summer romance and she didn't want another marriage...
However she had made the romance very public so she was probably cagy about dropping him too suddenly.. this was after all her first acknowledged public romance, since the end of her marriage..So I think she would have returned to England and then quietly stopped seeing him...
I don't think that she was ignoring things. When you spend time with someone, it's then you find out more about them, and whether it's to your liking. And this is what happened IMO.
Diana was dating Fayed. Why should it be kept a secret? Most people who date go out to public places and are seen together. This is the normal trajectory for any couple. Should she have confined herself to the "shadows" indefinetly?
I think Fayed honored Diana as a person by "stepping up" and courting her publicly. It showed that he respected her as a person. That was decent of him IMO.
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 02:24:18 PM
well if it was a summer romance she must have been planning how to ditch Dodi.. since he was clearly being pushed to propose to her and she it seems was pretty definitely not planning on the romance going on
I doubt if Kelly Fisher had "nothing but good things" to say about Dodi who had just walked out on her without so much as a goodbye and thank you.
He could be pushed all he wanted but Diana was only a divorcee for a year and did not tell her friends she was ready to remarry.
The Ex Wife had good things to say about Dodi. I am saying this because he was not considered "bad" to all people. She thought differently than Fisher which is my point.
Quote from: sandy on September 14, 2019, 06:34:10 PM
He could be pushed all he wanted but Diana was only a divorcee for a year and did not tell her friends she was ready to remarry.
The Ex Wife had good things to say about Dodi. I am saying this because he was not considered "bad" to all people. She thought differently than Fisher which is my point.
Most people who have mentioned Dodi, have given the same picture.. that he was good natured but that was about all... He was always chopping and changing.. he had no occupation.. he lacked drive and ability. His bodyguards found him tiresome because he was so ineffectual.. but they found they could usually jolly him out of silly ideas because he wasn't very smart...
He had nothing to do but be pleasant so its hardly greatly to his credit that for a few weeks he was pleasant enough to Diana to win her liking for a time. He may have gotten on well with his ex wife but after all she had escaped from their marriage and probably had a generous divorce settlement. She may have retained some affection for him..but He ill treated Kelly Fisher and left it ot his father to Brutally as she put it tell her the affair was over... I don't know about other girflriends but mostly I think he was considered the same, that he was nice enough but there was no solidity to him. Diana seems to have become irritated by his making a fuss over little things.. and she was probably annoyed by the chopping and changing... and the giving of expensive gifts that made her feel uncomfortable...
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Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 14, 2019, 06:20:42 PM
I don't think that she was ignoring things. When you spend time with someone, it's then you find out more about them, and whether it's to your liking. And this is what happened IMO.
Diana was dating Fayed. Why should it be kept a secret? Most people who date go out to public places and are seen together. This is the normal trajectory for any couple. Should she have confined herself to the "shadows" indefinetly?
I think Fayed honored Diana as a person by "stepping up" and courting her publicly. It showed that he respected her as a person. That was decent of him IMO.
he dated her because his father told him to. What was "decent" about htat? Was it "decent" to wlak out on his live in girlfriend without so much as a goodbye?
Dodi was attracted to Diana and she with him. Diana was a divorcee of one year I doubt she would have rushed into anything.
Quote from: amabel on September 14, 2019, 02:24:18 PM
well if it was a summer romance she must have been planning how to ditch Dodi.. since he was clearly being pushed to propose to her and she it seems was pretty definitely not planning on the romance going on
I doubt if Kelly Fisher had "nothing but good things" to say about Dodi who had just walked out on her without so much as a goodbye and thank you.
I don't see how it must have been. For one thing she died before she could get home. And whatever she planned to do or not do is not known.
Kelly was not Dodi's wife. He had an ex wife. She had good things to say about him. Kelly made herself clear how she thought. But other people did not dislike him.
I think most people who knew him mildly liked him as he was a pleasant enough person, as I've said. But they did not admire him because he was a hapless not very active person who had no acheivments. His bodyguard, as I recall, gave a picture of Dodi as not very bright and full of silly ideas.. but relatively easily "managed" - but he said that DIana was "miles too good for him"...
and I don't know what you mean abt Diana planning to leave Dodi. She told quite a few people that "it was a summer romance".. so if that was the case she wasn't very serious abot him and I can't see how she would have seen the relationship going any further. But Dodi was beign pressured to propose.. so if she didn't want to marry him nor to have a serious relationship with him what else could she do but finish with him??
Quote from: amabel on September 15, 2019, 06:32:33 AM
he dated her because his father told him to. What was "decent" about htat? Was it "decent" to wlak out on his live in girlfriend without so much as a goodbye?
I personally don't believe that a grown man dates an attractive young(ish) woman only because his father tells him so. I think that he was attracted to her and had his sights set on her and agreed with his father.
His decision to dump Fischer did not happen overnight. IMO. He perhaps thought about doing so already during the first leg of the vacation, i.e. he planned it, IMO.
I never said that that particular action of his was decent. I said that his treatment of Diana, by courting her publicly was a decent thing to do.
Apart from that, I don't think he was the worst guy or anything. He probably had some good sides. That being said, he didn't come across as "stellar" to me. I got a creepy vibe from him.
Quote from: amabel on September 15, 2019, 11:01:04 AM
I think most people who knew him mildly liked him as he was a pleasant enough person, as I've said. But they did not admire him because he was a hapless not very active person who had no acheivments. His bodyguard, as I recall, gave a picture of Dodi as not very bright and full of silly ideas.. but relatively easily "managed" - but he said that DIana was "miles too good for him"...
and I don't know what you mean abt Diana planning to leave Dodi. She told quite a few people that "it was a summer romance".. so if that was the case she wasn't very serious abot him and I can't see how she would have seen the relationship going any further. But Dodi was beign pressured to propose.. so if she didn't want to marry him nor to have a serious relationship with him what else could she do but finish with him??
Diana said she was not ready for a second marriage which did not eliminate Dodi as a boyfriend. She could have kept on seeing him as a boyfriend for what period of time, nobody can tell.
It's amazing how bodyguards speak ill of the dead. I can understand Kelly's point of view but Dodi's employees sound rather unpleasant to me and appear to want attention. Are you talking of Rees Jones? He has memory loss issues it would be odd if he had said that.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 12:22:38 PM
I personally don't believe that a grown man dates an attractive young(ish) woman only because his father tells him so. I think that he was attracted to her and had his sights set on her and agreed with his father.
His decision to dump Fischer did not happen overnight. IMO. He perhaps thought about doing so already during the first leg of the vacation, i.e. he planned it, IMO.
I never said that that particular action of his was decent. I said that his treatment of Diana, by courting her publicly was a decent thing to do.
Apart from that, I don't think he was the worst guy or anything. He probably had some good sides. That being said, he didn't come across as "stellar" to me. I got a creepy vibe from him.
Since Kelly understood that they were planning to marry on 9th August, it seems odd ot me that in mid July, Dodi essentially abandoned her, without telling her that the wedding was off. If he had lost interest in Kelly, surely the decent thing to do would be to tell her. Unless he really had not lost interest in her... and was still involved with her until his father told him to start courting Diana. If he "had his sights set on Diana" she was divorced for almost a year before he started to date her.. why not spit with his ladyfriend and ask Diana out long ages before he did? Its pretty clear to me that it was largely down to MAF pushing hm towards courting Diana.. and that left to himself he would have gone on in his relationship with Kelly and married her. But Dad told him to get over to the Med and start paying attention to this Ex Princess.
By having his sight set on her I mean when they first vacationed together.
Why would Fayed tells his girlfriend that he wanted to court someone else? I don't think that he was of a "stellar" character.
I think the image of Fayed being hapless and at his fathers mercy, so to speak, has been exaggerated. He perhaps was dominated but that doesn't mean that they never saw eye to eye, IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 01:20:24 PM
By having his sight set on her I mean when they first vacationed together.
Why would Fayed tells his girlfriend that he wanted to court someone else? I don't think that he was of a "stellar" character.
I think the image of Fayed being hapless and at his fathers mercy, so to speak, has been exaggerated. He perhaps was dominated but that doesn't mean that they never saw eye to eye, IMO.
Well if they did "see eye to eye" and Dodi was attracted to Diana some time earlier, then it is even worse. He was attracted to a woman.. but living iwht Kelly and telling her they would get married. But when he had become attracted to Diana, why not break up with KF and ask Di out? And how would Diana feel when she realised this? That either her boyfriend had asked her out and was paying a lto of attention to her because his Dad told him to.. or that he had been infatuated with her fro some time but had stayed with his girlfriend and made her promises of marriage while presumably waiting to get up the courage to ask Diana out. I hardly think a relationship with such a man was likey to work out well..
I don't know how much earlier, the first vacation was in July?
He did dump Kelly and courted Diana. That's essentially what happened. And he probably told Diana him and KF were over.
I don't think the relationship was that serious. IMO. They were just dating.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 01:26:56 PM
I don't know how much earlier, the first vacation was in July?
He did dump Kelly and courted Diana. That's essentially what happened. And he probably told Diana him and KF were over.
I don't think the relationship was that serious. IMO. They were just dating.
He didn't "dump Kelly". he left it to his father to do that. He started courting Diana in mid July, 1997.. She had been divorced for abut a year by then. So why on earth did he "suddenly" develop this attraction to her??
Obviously because his father having persuaded Diana to go on a holiday on his yacht, reasoned that the time had come for Dodi to do something to help MAF achieve his social ambitions of having connexion with the Brit aristocracy..
it seems that yes the relationship was not serious on Di's part but it was serious on Dodi's or at least MAF's side. According to reports he was purchasing a fancy ring for her.. probably a pre engagement ring..and MAF intended him to move on to a fully fledged proposal of marriage in a short time...
He essentially "ghosted" her, that is a (bad) form of ending a relationship, but an ending nonetheless.
Sometimes when you meet someone and spend time with them you become attracted. That's how it usually goes and it's not more complicated than that. IMO.
I don't see Fayed as a hapless sort of person doing only what his father said. That is a form of cop out to me. I think he was "sneaky" as evidenced by his handling of the KF situation.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 01:41:51 PM
He essentially "ghosted" her, that is a (bad) form of ending a relationship, but an ending nonetheless.
Sometimes when you meet someone and spend time with them you become attracted. That's how it usually goes and it's not more complicated than that. IMO.
I don't see Fayed as a hapless sort of person doing only what his father said. That is a form of cop out to me. I think he was "sneaky" as evidenced by his handling of the KF situation.
Not really. Maybe "ghosting" while shoddy, is just about acceptable for a short relationship but Kely believed they were engaged and not just engaged but planning on marriage in less than a month. I think most people would say if you are engaged to someone you owe them an explanation and a proper ending face to face...
Dodi didn't just "ghost" anyway.. He let his father do the dirty work of telling KF that the relationship was over ad she was nto to try and contact her boyfriend again.
Do your really think that Dodi met up with Di in mid July and fell madly in love with her? To the point where he now wanted to marry her rather than KF?
He wasn't "sneaky" - he was cowardly. Probalby could not face telling KF that the engagement was off.. and hoped perhaps to keep her on the side for a bit..THen his father stepped in and made sure that she knew it was off, in case she cuased an embarrassing scene.. He knew his son woudlnt' have the guts to do it...
He still left her, regardless of the progression of the relationship. It was not the nicest way to break up with someone but it was a breakup nonetheless. To me it says something about his character.
He was sneaky because I don't think that he disagreed with his father. And I think it was callous rather than cowardly to act that way. He perhaps held his cards close to his chest, so to speak, so that in case Diana wasn't responsive he could always go back to Kelly, I agree with that. When he saw that Diana showed interest, it was then that he left Kelly IMO.
But he was not some puppet who had no say, IMO, as some has made him out to be. If someone's that calculated and callous in their actions, they can't be dumb. IMO.
I never said anything about being "madly in love". They both felt an attraction that they acted upon. Not more complicated than that.
I think Dodi burned his bridges and if DIana were not responsive he would not have returned to Kelly and probably Kelly would not have wanted him by then.
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Quote from: amabel on September 15, 2019, 01:50:11 PM
Not really. Maybe "ghosting" while shoddy, is just about acceptable for a short relationship but Kely believed they were engaged and not just engaged but planning on marriage in less than a month. I think most people would say if you are engaged to someone you owe them an explanation and a proper ending face to face...
Dodi didn't just "ghost" anyway.. He let his father do the dirty work of telling KF that the relationship was over ad she was nto to try and contact her boyfriend again.
Do your really think that Dodi met up with Di in mid July and fell madly in love with her? To the point where he now wanted to marry her rather than KF?
He wasn't "sneaky" - he was cowardly. Probalby could not face telling KF that the engagement was off.. and hoped perhaps to keep her on the side for a bit..THen his father stepped in and made sure that she knew it was off, in case she cuased an embarrassing scene.. He knew his son woudlnt' have the guts to do it...
I honestly think Kelly had the self respect not to "settle" for being his mistress while he was with Diana. I don't think DIana would have put up with Dodi having someone on the side if she had married him.
Diana and Dodi did not get involved with her children there as well with his father and stepmother and their children around. It was after William and Harry left.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 03:21:03 PM
He still left her, regardless of the progression of the relationship. It was not the nicest way to break up with someone but it was a breakup nonetheless. To me it says something about his character.
He was sneaky because I don't think that he disagreed with his father. And I think it was callous rather than cowardly to act that way. He perhaps held his cards close to his chest, so to speak, so that in case Diana wasn't responsive he could always go back to Kelly, I agree with that. When he saw that Diana showed interest, it was then that he left Kelly IMO.
But he was not some puppet who had no say, IMO, as some has made him out to be. If someone's that calculated and callous in their actions, they can't be dumb. IMO.
I never said anything about being "madly in love". They both felt an attraction that they acted upon. Not more complicated than that.
And when Diana discovered (or rather paid attention to th fact) that he had been pushed into a relationship with her.. or that he had been engaged to antoher woman and planning ot marry her? What then?
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Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 15, 2019, 03:21:03 PM
He still left her, regardless of the progression of the relationship. It was not the nicest way to break up with someone but it was a breakup nonetheless. To me it says something about his character.
He was sneaky because I don't think that he disagreed with his father. And I think it was callous rather than cowardly to act that way. He perhaps held his cards close to his chest, so to speak, so that in case Diana wasn't responsive he could always go back to Kelly, I agree with that. When he saw that Diana showed interest, it was then that he left Kelly IMO.
But he was not some puppet who had no say, IMO, as some has made him out to be. If someone's that calculated and callous in their actions, they can't be dumb. IMO.
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I don't think he was calculating. I think that he did what Dad told him.. If he had not been suddenly summoned to pay court to Diana, he would have gone on and married Kelly.. He may have hoped to keep Kelly on tap so he didn't break up with her but I think it was also cowardice. He did not want the fuss and scenes.. He didn't care deeply for either woman..but getting together with Diana would have made his father pleased wth him.. if he could pull it off.
But it is pretty clear htat he "Had no say" in what he was allowed to do that summer since MAF stepped in and told KF brutally that the affair was over, while Dodi out of weakness or wanting to keep her on the side, had not told her this.. MAF made sure that KF was informed that she was out of it and while she might try her luck at a breach of promise case.. and be paid off, she wasn't going to be allowed to be Dodi's wife or girlfriend. MAF was making sure that Dodi's options were limited to what he wanted him to do.
I am not so sure he would have married Kelly. He did not seem to really care for her or he would not have listened to his father. I think they would have broken up even if his father did not interfere.
Dodi probably told Diana he was with Kelly but he broke up with her. Kelly Never blamed Diana.
Quote from: sandy on September 16, 2019, 01:48:12 PM
I am not so sure he would have married Kelly. He did not seem to really care for her or he would not have listened to his father. I think they would have broken up even if his father did not interfere.
Dodi probably told Diana he was with Kelly but he broke up with her. Kelly Never blamed Diana.
I should say that Kelly would have pressured him into going ahead with the marriage.. and fo course she did not blame Diana. Diana died just after she found out abuot the relationship. It would harldy look good to blame her.. when the blame was mostly due to Dodi's weakness
Quote from: amabel on September 16, 2019, 05:14:01 AM
And when Diana discovered (or rather paid attention to th fact) that he had been pushed into a relationship with her.. or that he had been engaged to antoher woman and planning ot marry her? What then?
Double post auto-merged: September 16, 2019, 06:53:11 AM
I don't think he was calculating. I think that he did what Dad told him.. If he had not been suddenly summoned to pay court to Diana, he would have gone on and married Kelly.. He may have hoped to keep Kelly on tap so he didn't break up with her but I think it was also cowardice. He did not want the fuss and scenes.. He didn't care deeply for either woman..but getting together with Diana would have made his father pleased wth him.. if he could pull it off.
But it is pretty clear htat he "Had no say" in what he was allowed to do that summer since MAF stepped in and told KF brutally that the affair was over, while Dodi out of weakness or wanting to keep her on the side, had not told her this.. MAF made sure that KF was informed that she was out of it and while she might try her luck at a breach of promise case.. and be paid off, she wasn't going to be allowed to be Dodi's wife or girlfriend. MAF was making sure that Dodi's options were limited to what he wanted him to do.
I think that he was attracted and pursued her. I don't think that he was "forced". He probably told Diana that he and Kelly had broken up a while back. The guy came across as a "player" to me.
I think that he and his father were alike, IMO. His father may have been dominating but that doesn't mean that Fayed was hapless, and innocent. He was sneaky and callous in his behaviour IMO. He saw an opportunity and took it. He probably approved of his father jumping in and making it clear to Kelly that they were over after Diana showed him interest. They sounded like a team to me.
It was not out of weakness for him to want to keep her on the side, it was an act of sneakiness IMO, and it showed a lack of respect for both Kelly and Diana IMO.
I should think he was releived that his father had gotten rid of Kelly, but he might have preferred it if he could have kept her on side...but Dad was taking no chances
I don't think that he was the faithful type IMO. He was perhaps taking a chance in seeing if Diana was responsive, and wanted Kelly as a back up plan IMO.
The way he discarded Kelly, and (likely imo) convinced Diana of otherwise, shows that other peoples feelings did not get in the way of his own gratification IMO. There's something slimy about him offering Kelly therapy when on the phone with her (if I remember correctly), and especially when Diana had made it known to the world what she went through. It showed a lack of regard for both ladies.
Personally, he came across as creepy to me. Just bad vibes IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:02:11 PM
I don't think that he was the faithful type IMO. He was perhaps taking a chance in seeing if Diana was responsive, and wanted Kelly as a back up plan IMO.
The way he discarded Kelly, and (likely imo) convinced Diana of otherwise, shows that other peoples feelings did not get in the way of his own gratification IMO. There's something slimy about him offering Kelly therapy when on the phone with her (if I remember correctly), and especially when Diana had made it known to the world what she went through. It showed a lack of regard for both ladies.
Personally, he came across as creepy to me. Just bad vibes IMO.
Creepy? Just stupid and selfish and thoughtless I'd say...
I personally don't think that he was "thoughtless". I personally got the impression that he knew what he was doing, and was sneaky and calculating IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:13:10 PM
I personally don't think that he was "thoughtless". I personally got the impression that he knew what he was doing, and was sneaky and calculating IMO.
Hardly. He hadn't got the brains to be calculating. Unfortunately he didn't have the brains to set up a sensible plan for dealing with the paparazzi either...
Why wouldn't he have "the brains" to be calculative? The guy managed to convince Kelly that nothing was going on and Diana that he and Kelly had broken up. He was, IMO, smooth and sneaky.
I think there were mistakes made that night.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 16, 2019, 07:43:56 PM
Why wouldn't he have "the brains" to be calculative? The guy managed to convince Kelly that nothing was going on and Diana that he and Kelly had broken up. He was, IMO, smooth and sneaky.
I think there were mistakes made that night.
How did he convince Kelly nothng was going on? She was suspicious when he left her and she couldn't get hold of him. She knew he was paying court to Diana.. and she then went for a breach of promise case. it didn't take her long to cotton on and to slam him with a legal case...
As for Diana -as she often did, - she shut her eyes to what she didn't want to see. She must have known within a short time that Dodi was not a perfect boyfriend, since it was all over the papers.. the debts, the ex fianc?e, the drug problems etc....
but she wasn't ready to breakup with him till she got bored herself.. which she was beginning to do by late August.
and yes I should say that a lot of mistakes were made.. and cuased the tragic deaths of 3 people.
Diana did not "shut her eyes" Dodi had to have told her he had broken up with Kelly. I doubt Diana would have stayed around had he told her he didn't. She believed Dodi. Kelly also never blamed Diana.
How is it known when she was ready or unready to break up with him? She died.
One huge mistake was putting Diana in the slow ambulance. She was given a raw deal when that happened to her. IMO
well its a ptity she hadn't gotten fed up with him a few days sooner..and gone home...
Quote from: amabel on September 16, 2019, 07:54:37 PM
How did he convince Kelly nothng was going on? She was suspicious when he left her and she couldn't get hold of him. She knew he was paying court to Diana.. and she then went for a breach of promise case. it didn't take her long to cotton on and to slam him with a legal case...
As for Diana -as she often did, - she shut her eyes to what she didn't want to see. She must have known within a short time that Dodi was not a perfect boyfriend, since it was all over the papers.. the debts, the ex fianc?e, the drug problems etc....
but she wasn't ready to breakup with him till she got bored herself.. which she was beginning to do by late August.
and yes I should say that a lot of mistakes were made.. and cuased the tragic deaths of 3 people.
He did at first, that's why she became suspicious later on IMO. He was perhaps deceitful in the sense that he took advantage of the trust she had in him as her boyfriend.
I don't think that Diana shut her eyes to anything. Fayed presented himself as a single man and probably told her that he and KF had broken up. In one Kelly interview I recall her saying that he kept repeating to her that they had broken up, doesn't she remember. Or something of that nature. He was eager to convince Kelly of this, because this is probably what he told Diana IMO, and wanted there to be a correspondence with what he told Diana. So he knew exactly what he was doing, and did not care for the consequences of his behaviour, even though she was a girlfriend of his, IMO. This points to someone of sneaky, conniving and callous character, in my personal opinion.
I don't think that Diana seriously considered marrying him.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 17, 2019, 06:19:04 AM
He did at first, that's why she became suspicious later on IMO. He was perhaps deceitful in the sense that he took advantage of the trust she had in him as her boyfriend.
I don't think that Diana shut her eyes to anything. Fayed presented himself as a single man and probably told her that he and KF had broken up. In one Kelly interview I recall her saying that he kept repeating to her that they had broken up, doesn't she remember. Or something of that nature. He was eager to convince Kelly of this, because this is probably what he told Diana IMO, and wanted there to be a correspondence with what he told Diana. So he knew exactly what he was doing, and did not care for the consequences of his behaviour, even though she was a girlfriend of his, IMO. This points to someone of sneaky, conniving and callous character, in my personal opinion.
I don't think that Diana seriously considered marrying him.
well no, IMO he didn't care that much for Diana nor for KF.. but he was with Kelly and would probaby have married her in due course. She found out very quickly what was going on.. the "romance" with Diana didn't last more than abuot 6 weeks from start to tragic finish. and Kelly soon realised that Dodi was off with Diana and feared she was either being cheated on or given the push. Once that was clear to her, she left and slapped Dodi with a lawsuit.
Diana must have realised from the press reports that Dodi had a lot of faults and issues. Even if she discounted some of it, there was far too much.. some of it must by the law of averages be true. She was IMO getting irritated and bored iwht him within a fairly short while. She enjoyed the holidays and the presents and the attention and her romance with him was taking the papers away from the "Camill'as birthday party"... so she kept it going but she told several friends it was a summer romance and that it was not likely to last.. so odds are she was keeping it going till she finally got bored...
Double post auto-merged: September 17, 2019, 08:43:02 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 17, 2019, 06:19:04 AM
He did at first, that's why she became suspicious later on IMO. He was perhaps deceitful in the sense that he took advantage of the trust she had in him as her boyfriend.
to someone of sneaky, conniving and callous character, in my personal opinion.
I don't think that Diana seriously considered marrying him.
Do you really think that Dodi comes across as a skilled philanderer who was able to juggle women and keep them from finding out about each other?? Hardly. He chose the feelbest of possible ways of breaking up with Kelly, leaving it to his father and then trying to bleat that "they had already broken up".. Kelly was onto him within a very short time and she didn't hang around for long.. She was out of there and off to a lawyer to get compensation. She wasn't a na?ve foolish girl, she knew Dodi was with Diana, because it was so damn obvious and once she knew that and that he was not likely to come back as her fianc?, she was gone, off to a lawyer and ready to sue him. I don't think she was heartbroke but she wasn't deceived for any length of time. Dodi was clumsy at his romantic relationships, and within a short time I think Diana had seen through him as well but it suited her to keep up the affair till the end of summer.
Dodi considered himself not engaged when he was with Diana. He as not "juggling" he was just avoiding telling Kelly he considered them broken up. He did not rush from one to the other like a Modern Day Casanova.
I don't think he and Kelly would have married even if Diana had not been around.
To be honest, I think that it was good Diana outdid Camilla for the headline. I think the party with her grinning wearing a diamond necklace from Charles was a bit much. I preferred Diana on the cover.
Quote from: amabel on September 17, 2019, 07:06:06 AM
well no, IMO he didn't care that much for Diana nor for KF.. but he was with Kelly and would probaby have married her in due course. She found out very quickly what was going on.. the "romance" with Diana didn't last more than abuot 6 weeks from start to tragic finish. and Kelly soon realised that Dodi was off with Diana and feared she was either being cheated on or given the push. Once that was clear to her, she left and slapped Dodi with a lawsuit.
Diana must have realised from the press reports that Dodi had a lot of faults and issues. Even if she discounted some of it, there was far too much.. some of it must by the law of averages be true. She was IMO getting irritated and bored iwht him within a fairly short while. She enjoyed the holidays and the presents and the attention and her romance with him was taking the papers away from the "Camill'as birthday party"... so she kept it going but she told several friends it was a summer romance and that it was not likely to last.. so odds are she was keeping it going till she finally got bored...
Double post auto-merged: September 17, 2019, 08:43:02 AM
Do you really think that Dodi comes across as a skilled philanderer who was able to juggle women and keep them from finding out about each other?? Hardly. He chose the feelbest of possible ways of breaking up with Kelly, leaving it to his father and then trying to bleat that "they had already broken up".. Kelly was onto him within a very short time and she didn't hang around for long.. She was out of there and off to a lawyer to get compensation. She wasn't a na?ve foolish girl, she knew Dodi was with Diana, because it was so damn obvious and once she knew that and that he was not likely to come back as her fianc?, she was gone, off to a lawyer and ready to sue him. I don't think she was heartbroke but she wasn't deceived for any length of time. Dodi was clumsy at his romantic relationships, and within a short time I think Diana had seen through him as well but it suited her to keep up the affair till the end of summer.
We don't know that he would have married her.
Good on Kelly for not putting up with being deceived and standing up for herself.
Diana, I think, wanted to see and decide for herself his character.
I don't think he was a "stellar" top notch kind of guy. However he had many flaws according to and in comparison with who?
The media targeted him because he was dating Diana publicly which made the newspapers dig and see what they could find out. Not all of it true probably, but it put him in the "line of fire".
Diana told her friends that she did not like nor want the presents, and said that she did not want to be bought. I don't think it was a forever after kind of love, but I don't think she had gotten bored and ready to "dump" him.
I don't think that he "juggled" women. I think that ,while he was with Kelly, he "clicked" with Diana and decided to leave Kelly.
That his father spoke in that way to Kelly and then him trying to convince her that they had broken up leads me to think that they were alike, and I think that he was a bit cold and sneaky. IMO.
How many faults do you want Dodi to have?? He had plenty. Even if a bit of the newspaper reports were exaggerated.. the facts taht came out in the few weeks he was with Diana, were pretty damning. He was not a monster..and he was too lazy and stupid to be a successful philanderer even.. If he dated a lot of women it was largely done with the help of his father's money.. He wold hardly have had so many ladies if he ahdn't been the son of a rich man..
I can't imagine that Diana wasn't getting bored with him even within a few weeks. He was kindly enough but as his bodyguard said "Di was miles too good for him". He didn't even make her life during their dating all that comfortable.. because he was prone to mess around with arrangements and make things more diffciult. Look at the hash he made of their last day together. Diana didn't really need to look very hard to see the evidence that he was not up to much as a character.. no job, not paying his bills, a girlfriend that he had just walked out on.. a father that was pressurising him to court Diana. I don't think she was unaware of all this but she was just enjoying the good side of the romance.. his being free all the time.. the luxury yacht etc.. while she could but wans't planning on sticking around with him for that long. Its hard to believe that she WASNT getting bored and losing interest and she certainly told more than 1 friend that it was just a summer romance.
Dodi was not a monster. And everybody has faults.
Diana's thoughts on him went with her to the grave. His bodyguard was not a very good employee and saying that about his employer was not nice IMO.
Diana had luxuries of her own she did not need the Fayeds to live well.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 10:25:18 AM
Dodi was not a monster. And everybody has faults.
Diana's thoughts on him went with her to the grave. His bodyguard was not a very good employee and saying that about his employer was not nice IMO.
Diana had luxuries of her own she did not need the Fayeds to live well.
his bodyguard was not a good employee?? And if Diana didn't need the Fayeds to "live well" why take a lot of presents from them? It clearly made her uncomfortable because its not proper "upper class" behaviour to go in for very lavish gift giving..
NO because he trashed his employer.
I don't think Diana got "many presents" from them. There was never any inventory
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 10:31:14 AM
NO because he trashed his employer.
I don't think Diana got "many presents" from them. There was never any inventory
his employer nearly got him killed. MAF as far as I remember dropped off caring for him.. and Dodi was clearly while good natured a nightmare to work for.. as was MAF
As for the presents.. Diana herself said that Dodi would ring her up and recite a list of the presents he was giving her.. (NOT proper behaviour)and that it made her uncomfortable...
I thought Rees Jones had amnesia. he said he does not remember everything. I think it was still rather tasteless of him to say that.
She said no to the presents. I don't recall hearing Diana saying that he called her up with a list. She told Rosa Monckton she would listen to the answering machine to hear his voice recording.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 01:01:06 PM
I thought Rees Jones had amnesia. he said he does not remember everything. I think it was still rather tasteless of him to say that.
She said no to the presents. I don't recall hearing Diana saying that he called her up with a list. She told Rosa Monckton she would listen to the answering machine to hear his voice recording.
I don't know of any evidence that she "said no to the presents." She said that it made her uncomfortable to havie him giving her so many gifts as if he was trying to buy her...
What was tasteless about Rees Jones? That he had amnesia? That he found Dodi stupid and a tiresome person to work for?
I don't know of any evidence that she said "yes" to them.
My point:
Rees Jones had amnesia so he does not remember some things.
I think Rees Jones should not have criticized his dead employer no matter what. I find that in bad taste.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 02:38:33 PM
I don't know of any evidence that she said "yes" to them.
My point:
Rees Jones had amnesia so he does not remember some things.
I think Rees Jones should not have criticized his dead employer no matter what. I find that in bad taste.
He does not remember the events of the crash. that's pretty normal for someone with severe head injuries. It does not mean he has no memory. And he's not suppose to criticise his dead employer? ReallY? Dodi was a spoilt and foolish man, who was difficult to work for.. RJ said that Diana was "miles too good for him"..
and I doubt very much if Diana refused the presents. I understand that he did things like buying her sweaters in dozens of colours, and it was probably difficult to refuse them graciously, but that was Dodi. He didn't see anything wrong with conspicuous consumption of that kind. She said that "if he gave her a ring it would go on her right hand".. which was harldy refusing a present...
He may have lost memory of a few things before the crash. Only he knows what is "missing."
And Dodi was his employer which I find really tasteless. And the man died.
Why would you doubt Diana refused the presents?
Diana was hardly a "golddigger."
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:02:41 PM
He may have lost memory of a few things before the crash. Only he knows what is "missing."
And Dodi was his employer which I find really tasteless. And the man died.
Why would you doubt Diana refused the presents?
Diana was hardly a "golddigger."
I've just said why. If she wasn't going to refuse an expensive engagement type ring, but would "put it firmly on her right hand", she was harldy going to turn down anything else.
And I find it hard to believe that someone is not allowed to criticise their employer because he is dead. RJ also criticised MAF.. He doesn't remember what happened from the time he got into the car but it would be more surprising if he did....
he was horribly injured...
It was the "tell me yes" ring but Dodi was supposed to be presenting that to Diana at his apartment when they left the Ritz. I think it was supposed to be a surprise so she would have told him on what hand it was to be on later.
I think it's tasteless and I stand by my opinion.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:09:05 PM
It was the "tell me yes" ring but Dodi was supposed to be presenting that to Diana at his apartment when they left the Ritz. I think it was supposed to be a surprise so she would have told him on what hand it was to be on later.
I think it's tasteless and I stand by my opinion.
No she said thtat she "knew Dodi was going to give her a ring".. meaning that she knew he was goig to suggest marriage.. and she would "put the ring on her right hand".. ie not wanting to marry him but still accepting the ring...
If she "knew" then why did Dodi feel he must give her the ring that night? It could have been done in the morning.
There are many details missing since both died.
Quote from: amabel on September 18, 2019, 07:46:25 AM
How many faults do you want Dodi to have?? He had plenty. Even if a bit of the newspaper reports were exaggerated.. the facts taht came out in the few weeks he was with Diana, were pretty damning. He was not a monster..and he was too lazy and stupid to be a successful philanderer even.. If he dated a lot of women it was largely done with the help of his father's money.. He wold hardly have had so many ladies if he ahdn't been the son of a rich man..
I can't imagine that Diana wasn't getting bored with him even within a few weeks. He was kindly enough but as his bodyguard said "Di was miles too good for him". He didn't even make her life during their dating all that comfortable.. because he was prone to mess around with arrangements and make things more diffciult. Look at the hash he made of their last day together. Diana didn't really need to look very hard to see the evidence that he was not up to much as a character.. no job, not paying his bills, a girlfriend that he had just walked out on.. a father that was pressurising him to court Diana. I don't think she was unaware of all this but she was just enjoying the good side of the romance.. his being free all the time.. the luxury yacht etc.. while she could but wans't planning on sticking around with him for that long. Its hard to believe that she WASNT getting bored and losing interest and she certainly told more than 1 friend that it was just a summer romance.
He was callous and dumped his girlfriend when someone better "reacted" to him. I don't think that he was stupid, he was sneaky, IMO.
Diana didn't care about the gifts, IMO. She wouldn't have complained to Monckton about him keeping tab of the gifts given to her if she did. It says more about Fayed that he thought that Diana could be "bought", IMO.
I don't think that she got bored yet. Why would she cuddle up to him moments before them getting in the car if she was?
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 03:34:04 PM
If she "knew" then why did Dodi feel he must give her the ring that night? It could have been done in the morning.
There are many details missing since both died.
If Dodi was giving her the rign that ngiht presumably she would have been wearing it.
Double post auto-merged: September 18, 2019, 07:37:22 PM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 18, 2019, 06:55:35 PM
He was callous and dumped his girlfriend when someone better "reacted" to him. I don't think that he was stupid, he was sneaky, IMO.
Diana didn't care about the gifts, IMO. She wouldn't have complained to Monckton about him keeping tab of the gifts given to her if she did. It says more about Fayed that he thought that Diana could be "bought", IMO.
I don't think that she got bored yet. Why would she cuddle up to him moments before them getting in the car if she was?
Why wasn't she bored iwht him? I do wonder. He was not very bright.. He had hashed up their last evening with the messing around and summoning an untrained driver to take them home.. "dashing away from the paparazzi". He tried to buy her affection and she seems to have accepted the gifts. She must have known a lot about his faults by 31st August..
If she didn't care about the gifts why accept them? True it was probably difficult to decline them but she was putting herself in a very false position by accepting expensive presents from a man who was being wheeled out to marry her.
And I think she was tired, cross and longing to get out of the hotel and away from the photographers and go to bed...
Her feelings will never be known.
I don't see Diana as a gold digger craving expensive gifts.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 07:52:49 PM
Her feelings will never be known.
I don't see Diana as a gold digger craving expensive gifts.
Then she was in a very difficult positon with Dodi, since he was clearly under orders to give her a lot of expensive gifts culminating in an engagement ring
I think she was just having fun and being on vacation with her boyfriend. Dodi could be under orders but he could not force Diana to marry him.
Quote from: sandy on September 18, 2019, 10:56:39 PM
I think she was just having fun and being on vacation with her boyfriend. Dodi could be under orders but he could not force Diana to marry him.
hardly but he put her in a difficult position. (Not to mention the disastrous things of the last day and night). If she didn't want to marry him, she had been seen taking a lot of holidays with him, which did not do her much good in terms of popularity in England.. and she had put herself in a false position by accepting his gifts and hospitality, knowing that she wasn't going to marry him...
I see nothing "difficult" about it. Couples have to learn about each other and likes and dislikes. Diana was free to tell him she did not like to be bombarded with gifts. That's what couples need to do to get along
Quote from: sandy on September 19, 2019, 01:48:30 PM
I see nothing "difficult" about it. Couples have to learn about each other and likes and dislikes. Diana was free to tell him she did not like to be bombarded with gifts. That's what couples need to do to get along
Since he was planning to marry her, and was under orders from Dad to do so, and Diana was insistent to her friends that it was just a light hearted summer romance, I don't quite see how they were "getting along" .. They were not on the same page at all as regards their relationsip. So for her to take a lot of gifts from him, was putting herself in an awkward postion. I don't quite see how they were a couple..
He could be planning until all eternity but Diana had to cooperate.
Quote from: sandy on September 19, 2019, 02:03:01 PM
He could be planning until all eternity but Diana had to cooperate.
so since she wasn't planning to cooperate, it rather sent the wrong message if she accepted expensive gifts
She died on August 31, her plans went with her to the grave. She may wanted to have continued to see him but not rush into anything. It is not known if the "price" for accepting the gift was marriage. Also, Diana was known to give presents and was generous as well. She may have given him gifts.
Quote from: amabel on September 18, 2019, 07:33:54 PM
Why wasn't she bored iwht him? I do wonder. He was not very bright.. He had hashed up their last evening with the messing around and summoning an untrained driver to take them home.. "dashing away from the paparazzi". He tried to buy her affection and she seems to have accepted the gifts. She must have known a lot about his faults by 31st August..
If she didn't care about the gifts why accept them? True it was probably difficult to decline them but she was putting herself in a very false position by accepting expensive presents from a man who was being wheeled out to marry her.
And I think she was tired, cross and longing to get out of the hotel and away from the photographers and go to bed...
I think it's because he could be very charming, kind and amiable. In other words, he put his best foot forward. Also because I don't think that Diana was looking for something serious of the bat, so she had fun and in a "safe" enviroment with people she knew for a long time.
His acting that way with paparazzi was unfortunate. I am one of those who think that there was more to the story, i.e. many mistakes were made (bad medical care etc.), so I don't think it was all on Fayed.
We don't know that Diana accepted all of his gifts. I don't think she would have complained to Monckton if she did not mind it. But she was also a well mannered person and perhaps tried to not accept them in "proper" way, i.e. not hurting his feelings.
I think that Diana was mostly irritated with the papparazzi who could be a real pain.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 19, 2019, 06:41:36 PM
I think it's because he could be very charming, kind and amiable. In other words, he put his best foot forward. Also because I don't think that Diana was looking for something serious of the bat, so she had fun and in a "safe" enviroment with people she knew for a long time.
His acting that way with paparazzi was unfortunate. I am one of those who think that there was more to the story, i.e. many mistakes were made (bad medical care etc.), so I don't think it was all on Fayed.
We don't know that Diana accepted all of his gifts. I don't think she would have complained to Monckton if she did not mind it. But she was also a well mannered person and perhaps tried to not accept them in "proper" way, i.e. not hurting his feelings.
I think that Diana was mostly irritated with the papparazzi who could be a real pain.
You really think Dodi could be "Kind and amiable?" He wasn't very kind to his girlfriend.. nor to his bodyguards. And since Diana knew it seems he was planning to propose and she did not want a serious relationship she was putting herself in a very false position.. esp with the acceptance of expensive gifts.
He didn't have anything to do with the paparazzi.. its been said that when they were chased by them in the last day or 2 Dodi looked visibly rattlted.. so he should have left it to his bodygards to devise a plan to escape them, rather than messing around and using his own stupid plan of using a a driver who had been off duty, was nt a qualified driver and who was drinking..
His ex wife had nothing but good things to say about him.
I don't think it can be said what Diana knew or didn't know, she died before he could even present her with that ring.
People dating can communicate and one may say he or she is not ready to settle down yet. It was not as if she had to sign a formal betrothal to him.
There was also the very bad medical care Diana got when she was bleeding to death.
She said to more than 1 person that it was a summer romance. .and that "if he gave her a ring she'd put it on her right hand".
He never got the chance to give her that ring. He reportedly went by himself to the Paris Jewelers to pick up the "Tell Me Yes" ring. Diana was not with him so it was debatable if she knew about this specific purchase. Diana and Dodi only were dating for a matter of ca. 2 months, it would be highly doubtful if she'd say yes after only two months and only a year after her divorce. It is also subject to speculation if she was thinking anything permanent with him or just continuing to date him
Quote from: sandy on September 20, 2019, 01:55:02 PM
He never got the chance to give her that ring. He reportedly went by himself to the Paris Jewelers to pick up the "Tell Me Yes" ring. Diana was not with him so it was debatable if she knew about this specific purchase. Diana and Dodi only were dating for a matter of ca. 2 months, it would be highly doubtful if she'd say yes after only two months and only a year after her divorce. It is also subject to speculation if she was thinking anything permanent with him or just continuing to date him
She obviously did know that he was planning to propose.. so why continue to date him and put herself in this position? She must have realised by then that he wasn't up to much..- there was plenty of evidence... and that he was largely proposing because Dad had ordered it. So why not politely end the relationship? Why say she wuodl accept an expensive ring.. unless she was still considering the marriage..but if she was considering going on with the affair, why tell friends it was just a summer romance
I don't think any thing here is obvious. The two took their secrets to the grave.
Dating does not necessarily mean the couple has to marry. Diana was a divorcee of only one year. Her thinking he could propose did not mean she had to marry him nor did she have any obligation to do so.
I would suspect she could have dated him during the Fall and may or may not have continued the relationship. If she had any idea about marriage I doubt she'd rush into it right away.
It was not an "affair" he was her boyfriend.
Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 07:13:09 AM
You really think Dodi could be "Kind and amiable?" He wasn't very kind to his girlfriend.. nor to his bodyguards. And since Diana knew it seems he was planning to propose and she did not want a serious relationship she was putting herself in a very false position.. esp with the acceptance of expensive gifts.
He didn't have anything to do with the paparazzi.. its been said that when they were chased by them in the last day or 2 Dodi looked visibly rattlted.. so he should have left it to his bodygards to devise a plan to escape them, rather than messing around and using his own stupid plan of using a a driver who had been off duty, was nt a qualified driver and who was drinking..
Well of course, I think he could be when he wanted to be. No, he wasn't very nice to them, I agree. However he wanted to impress Diana and give her the right impression, and I think he put his best foot forward.
I don't think Diana knew about how he treated his girlfriend. She was not privy to any of their conversations or interactions, IMO. So, how could she know?
We don't know if Diana accepted gifts with "glee" or anything. It could be that she was trying to be polite and good mannered when being gifted. She probably did the same as POW.
I agree that he made mistakes. I think he was trying to impress Diana by showing her he was the "boss" and in "charge". I think that Diana understood this and humored him.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 20, 2019, 06:08:01 PM
Well of course, I think he could be when he wanted to be. No, he wasn't very nice to them, I agree. However he wanted to impress Diana and give her the right impression, and I think he put his best foot forward.
I don't think Diana knew about how he treated his girlfriend. She was not privy to any of their conversations or interactions, IMO. So, how could she know?
We don't know if Diana accepted gifts with "glee" or anything. It could be that she was trying to be polite and good mannered when being gifted. She probably did the same as POW.
I agree that he made mistakes. I think he was trying to impress Diana by showing her he was the "boss" and in "charge". I think that Diana understood this and humored him.
Dodi's faulty side was all over the papers during their short relationship. If Diana didn't know, it was because she didn't want to know. And since she said to quite a few people that it was just a summer romance, she was clearly not wiling to commit..yet she knew that Dodi was planning to ask her to marry him. Why allow the man to get to that stage, if you were not interested in marrying
Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 06:20:09 PM
Dodi's faulty side was all over the papers during their short relationship. If Diana didn't know, it was because she didn't want to know. And since she said to quite a few people that it was just a summer romance, she was clearly not wiling to commit..yet she knew that Dodi was planning to ask her to marry him. Why allow the man to get to that stage, if you were not interested in marrying
Not everything a paper prints is true, as Diana herself was familiar with. She might have been willing to hear the Fayed's side of things because they were her friends.
She told them it was a summer romance IMO because she was having fun at the time. I don't think it meant that on a specific date in the summer that she would end it abruptly or anything, imo.
How did she know that Fayed was planning to propose to her?
Diana was dating Fayed. Part of dating is going out i.e. being public. I think it was a healthy step she took in order to break free of a past unhealthy situation. In other words, Diana was adjusting to "normalcy" and how it's usually done when being in a relationship and dating. None of this is odd, IMO, and she had a life to live.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 20, 2019, 06:32:14 PM
Not everything a paper prints is true, as Diana herself was familiar with. She might have been willing to hear the Fayed's side of things because they were her friends.
She told them it was a summer romance IMO because she was having fun at the time. I don't think it meant that on a specific date in the summer that she would end it abruptly or anything, imo.
How did she know that Fayed was planning to propose to her?
Diana was dating Fayed. Part of dating is going out i.e. being public. I think it was a healthy step she took in order to break free of a past unhealthy situation. In other words, Diana was adjusting to "normalcy" and how it's usually done when being in a relationship and dating. None of this is odd, IMO, and she had a life to live.
Alas, her dating Dodi led to her accident and death. As for your question, she said to Rosa M that Dodi was going to give her a ring.. which indicates she knew he was making a serius proposal.. She didn't say she would turn it down completely.. but she said it was "going onto her right hand" which sounded like she was pretty sure she did not want to marry him, but she wasn't saying a complete no to the ring. And saying "its a summer romance" to quite a few friends, seems to me to indicate that she had enjoyed what Dodi could give her.. the holidays, the yacht, the fun and attention, but she didn't see it lasting.. And knew that he hadn't anything more solid to igve.
Accidents are accidents. A person can just leave the home and get hit by a car or be in the middle of gunfire or be in a mall with a gunman. It is like saying if someone had not gone to a mall that day, the person would not have been shot and killed by a terrorist. Diana was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or wanting to be on the Titanic's first voyage led to death. Which is what happens with accident victims.
Diana said nothing publicly about Dodi so it is all conjecture. A friend of DIana's said she said this. Diana is gone and can't confirm or deny what the friend said.
And what Dodi knew is also subject to conjecture.
Quote from: sandy on September 20, 2019, 11:36:07 PM
Accidents are accidents. A person can just leave the home and get hit by a car or be in the middle of gunfire or be in a mall with a gunman. It is like saying if someone had not gone to a mall that day, the person would not have been shot and killed by a terrorist. Diana was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Or wanting to be on the Titanic's first voyage led to death. Which is what happens with accident victims.
Diana said nothing publicly about Dodi so it is all conjecture. A friend of DIana's said she said this. Diana is gone and can't confirm or deny what the friend said.
And what Dodi knew is also subject to conjecture.
This was an accident that happened largely because of stupidity on the part of the Fayed organisation or more likely Dodi. He chose to have the plan of sneaking out the back, of only taking one bodyguard and no back up car.. He also chose to bring in a driver who wasn't a trained driver, who did nto have a licence to drive that big and heavy car and who, having been off duty, had had a few drinks and been taking medicines that are not supposed to be takne with Alcohol. In addition, Henri Paul drove far too fast. teased the photographers, so that they were keen to chase after him.. and the pasangers in the car did not wear their seatbelts.....
It was an accident that could have probaby been avoided if they had driven at reasonable speed, worn seatbelts and had a good driver...
Yes, but people who can die in accidents can die because another driver is drunk or ill and hits them. It can also be said that if Charles did not see Camilla anymore and committed fully to DIana she would not have been in Paris that night. It's all what ifs.
It also was unfortunate for Diana that it happened in Paris with their 'rules' about treating people in accidents and not getting her to the hospital in a timely manner.
Henri Paul deftly tied his shoes when he was supposed to be "drunk." Also why did the body guard let him drive if Paul had alcohol smell on his breath. Now the bodyguard has amnesia and can't tell.
THe seatbelts were in the backseat in car deployed at the last minute. Some reports say they malfunctioned. They might have been "there" but did not allow them to be buckled in--the belts perhaps did not stretch so they were locked in. Diana also was one who regularly buckled up all other times.
Quote from: sandy on September 21, 2019, 12:15:46 PM
Yes, but people who can die in accidents can die because another driver is drunk or ill and hits them. It can also be said that if Charles did not see Camilla anymore and committed fully to DIana she would not have been in Paris that night. It's all what ifs.
It also was unfortunate for Diana that it happened in Paris with their 'rules' about treating people in accidents and not getting her to the hospital in a timely manner.
Henri Paul deftly tied his shoes when he was supposed to be "drunk." Also why did the body guard let him drive if Paul had alcohol smell on his breath. Now the bodyguard has amnesia and can't tell.
THe seatbelts were in the backseat in car deployed at the last minute. Some reports say they malfunctioned. They might have been "there" but did not allow them to be buckled in--the belts perhaps did not stretch so they were locked in. Diana also was one who regularly buckled up all other times.
As you know. Henri Paul had 2 drinks at the bar of the Ritz I believe the bar bill confirms that. he was alos in another bar during his time away from the Hotel.. and he was taking Prozac which is not supposed to be mixed with alcohol. he was not a trained driver and did not have the licence necessary to drive a heavy car.. So there were numerous reasons why this accident might have been on the cards. The guards have also stated that Paul was smoking cigars which masked the smell of a few dirnks. In addition, the Paget report states that the belts were not put on. None of the passangers nor H Paul were wearing their seat belts...
In addition, Paul drove much too fast and that was why he lost control of the car entering the tunnel.
It is interesting that Henri Paul's first post mortem test proved inaccurate and it had to be retaken (it was switched with another test)
Why was not Rees Jones the bodyguard protecting his passengers by insisting all buckle up (if this were possible for back seat passengers) Yes he has amnesia and can't tell all the details.
And the tunnel cameras were not working that night, a bright light flashed as they were entering the tunnel, the Fiat that cut them off disappeared, and then DIana was not given the help she needed to get her to the hospital on time. Other details that are puzzling as well. The slow ride to the hospital to me is indefensible.
Rees Jones was the only one who got up close. He forgot what happened and he could have been remiss. It is not known if the cigar smoke masked anything.
Quote from: amabel on September 20, 2019, 06:37:04 PM
Alas, her dating Dodi led to her accident and death. As for your question, she said to Rosa M that Dodi was going to give her a ring.. which indicates she knew he was making a serius proposal.. She didn't say she would turn it down completely.. but she said it was "going onto her right hand" which sounded like she was pretty sure she did not want to marry him, but she wasn't saying a complete no to the ring. And saying "its a summer romance" to quite a few friends, seems to me to indicate that she had enjoyed what Dodi could give her.. the holidays, the yacht, the fun and attention, but she didn't see it lasting.. And knew that he hadn't anything more solid to igve.
I don't think that her dating Fayed led her to her death. She had dated him for weeks and nothing happened. There were many mistakes made that led to the unfortunate outcome.
If she had wanted all of those things, there were plenty of friends that could give her that. I think the attraction was vacationing with people she knew and liked, and she happened to become fond of Fayed. Her not seeing it lasting does not mean there was a timestamp on the romance, IMO. So, Diana was not obligated to accept anything, and her "suspecting" him wanting to propose does not mean that she had dubious intentions. She dated someone who perhaps was more eager than her, it's not a reflection on her.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 04:17:06 PM
I don't think that her dating Fayed led her to her death. She had dated him for weeks and nothing happened. There were many mistakes made that led to the unfortunate outcome.
If she had wanted all of those things, there were plenty of friends that could give her that. I think the attraction was vacationing with people she knew and liked, and she happened to become fond of Fayed. Her not seeing it lasting does not mean there was a timestamp on the romance, IMO. So, Diana was not obligated to accept anything, and her "suspecting" him wanting to propose does not mean that she had dubious intentions. She dated someone who perhaps was more eager than her, it's not a reflection on her.
more eager??? His father was more eager. DIana herself, I don't know what she was thinking. but it seems clear that she was not that committed. She said to one firend "haven't you ever had a summer affair.. it is just like that"...
Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 04:20:49 PM
more eager??? His father was more eager. DIana herself, I don't know what she was thinking. but it seems clear that she was not that committed. She said to one firend "haven't you ever had a summer affair.. it is just like that"...
Fayed and MAF were both eager. Fayed dated starlets, so of course he would be happy dating the most famous woman in the World IMO. I think they liked each other.
The things is, her friends can claim she said anything, without a recording or Diana herself confirming or denying, it's just conjecture. But if she said this, she perhaps meant the romance was lighthearted and fun. She had no intention of marrying Fayed but likewise had no plans of dropping him just yet.
This is just my take on it.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 08:26:22 PM
Fayed and MAF were both eager. Fayed dated starlets, so of course he would be happy dating the most famous woman in the World IMO. I think they liked each other.
The things is, her friends can claim she said anything, without a recording or Diana herself confirming or denying, it's just conjecture. But if she said this, she perhaps meant the romance was lighthearted and fun. She had no intention of marrying Fayed but likewise had no plans of dropping him just yet.
This is just my take on it.
But what was she likely to stay around for? Yes Dodi was giving her nice holidays and expensive presents but that's hardly a reason to stay in a relationship.. He had little else to offer but his company and his father's wealth. Froom what she said to more than 1 friend.. it was fun but it was just a summer fling.. and from what one or 2 staff said, she was "miles too good for him" and she seemed to be getting a little irritated by the messy lifestyle, and the fusses he made over little things. by the end of August Diana must have seen enough information about Doidi in the press and seen enough of his life with his father to realise that he was hardly a true blue suitor who was in love with her or who was able to offer her anything very solid.. and she must have realised that if she did stick around, MAF would be constantly interfering and pushing Dodi towards the inevitable proposal. what was the poit of the Tell Me yes ring other than to work up to the offer of a real engagement ring? If Diana didn't want to marry him, she was going to be in an awkward position the longer she stuck around.
I don't think that Diana stayed for the holidays or gifts. I think she liked the guy and had fun. I don't think that she would have stayed around for years or anything. It was a matter of months IMO, but who knows? Diana is the only one who knew, and she's dead.
It's curious to see his staff speaking about him in that manner. I guess a good paycheck make you put up with things.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 09:01:35 PM
I don't think that Diana stayed for the holidays or gifts. I think she liked the guy and had fun. I don't think that she would have stayed around for years or anything. It was a matter of months IMO, but who knows? Diana is the only one who knew, and she's dead.
It's curious to see his staff speaking about him in that manner. I guess a good paycheck make you put up with things.
Well most of us don't have the luxury of choosing who we work for. THey didn't work for Dodi anyway but for MAF.. who was also a pretty difficutlt and unpleasant boss. The bodyguards called putting up with Dodi and MAF's whims and difficult behaviour... "paying the mortgage" as they did not have much choice but to put up with them in order to keep their jobs. THey joked that there was "UK time, European Time and Dodi Time" and generally it was clear that they saw Dodi as amiable enough but not very smart and not always easy to work for.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 21, 2019, 09:01:35 PM
I don't think that Diana stayed for the holidays or gifts. I think she liked the guy and had fun. I don't think that she would have stayed around for years or anything. It was a matter of months IMO, but who knows? Diana is the only one who knew, and she's dead.
It's curious to see his staff speaking about him in that manner. I guess a good paycheck make you put up with things.
the staff that talked in inquest didnt bash him at all. just the 2 bodyguards appears like(d) having a go at him and his father
Quote from: amabel on September 21, 2019, 09:10:34 PM
Well most of us don't have the luxury of choosing who we work for. THey didn't work for Dodi anyway but for MAF.. who was also a pretty difficutlt and unpleasant boss. The bodyguards called putting up with Dodi and MAF's whims and difficult behaviour... "paying the mortgage" as they did not have much choice but to put up with them in order to keep their jobs. THey joked that there was "UK time, European Time and Dodi Time" and generally it was clear that they saw Dodi as amiable enough but not very smart and not always easy to work for.
They seemed to have found a way to cope with the "difficulties" of the job. They probably got paid handsomely so there's that.
Double post auto-merged: September 22, 2019, 02:48:37 AM
Quote from: dianab on September 21, 2019, 09:34:21 PM
the staff that talked in inquest didnt bash him at all. just the 2 bodyguards appears like(d) having a go at him and his father
What did the other staff say, if you don't mind me asking?
Quote from: dianab on September 21, 2019, 09:34:21 PM
the staff that talked in inquest didnt bash him at all. just the 2 bodyguards appears like(d) having a go at him and his father
Of course staff who were still working for him weren't going to "bash him".. but generally, I can't see why Dodi's staff would have had much respect for him. He was nothing but the amiable but brainless son of a wealthy man.. who in spite of his advantages as such seems to have not done anything with his life. He didn't even seem to have some kind of token job for any length of time.. and in spite of having money from his father he still didn't seem able to pay his own bills but usualy seems to have ended up having his father settling them. So why on earth should the hard working men who had to work for him have any great liking or respect for him? It was largely Dodi's stupidity that had been a major factor in causing the accident.. which almost got Trevor killed... and then MAF began to give him trouble and pressured him to "recall" details of the accident.. which he could not do.
Double post auto-merged: September 22, 2019, 09:25:23 AM
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 22, 2019, 02:48:09 AM
They seemed to have found a way to cope with the "difficulties" of the job. They probably got paid handsomely so there's that.
Double post auto-merged: September 22, 2019, 02:48:37 AM
Yes they were paid handsomely.. but it does not mean that it was an easy job.. MAF is notoriously difficult.. He is a fantasist and has shown that many many times for many years since Dodi's death.
and I think that the 2 bodyguards were concerned that 2 of them could not handle the sudden rush of paparazzi that were following Dodi when he was dating Diana. When Dodi was a little known person who didn't do much, 2 guards was enough.. but with a crowd of photographers suddenly descending on the couple, 2 of them was probably NOT enough esp as Dodi was never willing to cooperate with his staff.. and did the stupid thing of bringing Henry Paul back form offduty to drive the car
i remember reading diana didnt want many bodyguards around them. and dodi had tell them in yacht to give them privacy
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on September 22, 2019, 02:48:09 AM
They seemed to have found a way to cope with the "difficulties" of the job. They probably got paid handsomely so there's that.
Double post auto-merged: September 22, 2019, 02:48:37 AM
What did the other staff say, if you don't mind me asking?
most of them described him as a kind man. particuarly one massagist from LA who knew him for 20 years , dodi called her to jonikal to take care of diana... this woman also said kelly told several lies about dodi, he had always told her he wasnt engaged and he used give several gifts to his girlfriends and she didnt believe he'll propose to diana.... it was very normal of him to give jewels to his girlfriends
the staff at jonikal yacht didnt have issues with him. just said he and diana were bothered by paparazzi following them. no one of them described him as a rude or crazy guy.
he wasn't rude or crazy...but he was stupid and aimless. And I woudlnt' take it very seriously if someone said that they didn't think he was going to propose to Diana...I can't imagine MAF would let him off doing that...
The Fail has been giving photo glimpses of the filming of Charles and Diana for Season 4 and praising it as 'transforming' and authentic. Well, if Emma resembles Diana in looks, demeanour or characteristics, even after some undoubted coaching, is doubtful.
However, there is no excuse IMO for not copying Diana's outfits correctly. I can only conclude that those in charge of Wardrobe are colourblind, those in charge of actors' hair don't know what they're doing, with either Josh's or Emma's hairstyles, or else they simply don't care about getting things right. I suspect the latter.
The Crown's Josh O'Connor and Emma Corrin film series four | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-7559979/The-Crowns-Josh-OConnor-Emma-Corrin-transform-Charles-Diana-series-four-filming.html)
She's hardly going to look exactly like Diana... given that Di had unsual looks wth that big nose. Most actresses nowadays tend to be rather blandly pretty...and it is rare for period dramas to get the hair "right" as older hairdos (such as for example beehives and back combing) tend to look odd to people in the present... so they are usually modified.
Of course I don't expect a clone! However, Emma hasn't got the look of Diana at that time, the way she stood, held her head, mostly because of her age. Diana was only 22 at the time of the Aus/Pacific tour, and looked it. She still appeared round and almost babyish in the face. I saw her in real life on that tour and remember it well.
And as for the hair, they could do much better than it looking just limp and uncared for. There are plenty of photos of the time that show the thickness of Diana's hair and its bounce. With competent hairdressers you can achieve a better, more authentic look than in those photos in the Fail. And if the dress and hat are supposed to be copies there's colourblindness in the Wardrobe dept.
I haven't seen the crown but I gather its not that accurate in terms of the story anyway and tends to go for sensational rather than correct. So I would not be too bothered by clothes not being the same. they are probably restricted by budgetary considerations.. and I honeslty don't see that it maters all that much if Di was wearing a blue dress on her visit and they put her in a green one...I tend to prefer accurate history or accuracy to the Novel if it is an adaptation.. but one never gets that nowadays anyway!!
I watched one episode, the first, in the first series and got so put off by it I never watched again. However there were boasts in the promotion of the series that they were going for deadly accuracy in the clothing, gowns, interiors, jewellery etc, especially the Crown and tiaras.
Some Royal observers wrote that there was great accuracy in those, when they saw the first Season. Maybe they've dropped the ball since. I don't know. However, while not too many might remember what the Queen, say, or Anne or Margaret might be wearing at a particular time, it's different with Diana. Her outfits (and hair) are very much remembered.
Diana was celebrated as a style icon, and I just feel there may well be a lot of people who remember Diana and/or were interested in her clothes, will be looking at that particular season and saying 'No, that's not right! She didn't wear that outfit then...' etc. So if they don't get it correct, and her hair was also very much part of Diana's look....well, they will probably get criticism.
I remember reading that the budget for this whole series was sky high. Which is why I was surprised when what I've seen on Emma in these photos over the past week looks quite cheap and nasty. And whatever Diana was or wasn't she didn't wear that!
well I think they do often do that in historical series nowadays.. they try to be accurate as regards clothes and decoration.. but they don't care whether the script or the actors are any good. Look at Downton Abbey. I know what you mean about Diana's clothes..but then again a lot of people watching this show will not remember her and maybe were not born during her lifetime and so wont remember what she wore at a particular time...
There are photographs and books for people to see what she wore, they did not necessarily have to live when she did to know what she wore. She has so many photos to this day in popular magazines and she's all over the Internet. I don't think people born after she died exactly live in a sort of vacuum. Fashions of Audrey Hepburn and Jackie O. are also well known.
Quote from: amabel on October 11, 2019, 07:02:51 AM
She's hardly going to look exactly like Diana... given that Di had unsual looks wth that big nose. Most actresses nowadays tend to be rather blandly pretty...and it is rare for period dramas to get the hair "right" as older hairdos (such as for example beehives and back combing) tend to look odd to people in the present... so they are usually modified.
Diana really did not have a "big nose". It was in proportion and she looked great.
Controversial new documentary series will claim Princess Diana tried to kill herself four times | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-8281779/Controversial-new-documentary-series-claim-Princess-Diana-tried-kill-four-times.html)
Netflix documentary will claim Princess Diana tried to kill herself four times in new torment for William & Harry ? The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/tvandshowbiz/11536699/netflix-documentary-princess-diana-kill-herself/)
Princess Diana documentary on her mental health sparks fury - 'Let her rest in peace!' | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1277240/princess-Diana-news-documentary-being-me-Diana-twitter-backlash-royal-news)
Princess Diana 'tried to kill herself four times', new documentary claims - Mirror Online (https://www.mirror.co.uk/tv/tv-news/princess-diana-tried-kill-herself-21966121)
Duke of Cambridge and Duke of Sussex will upset on his mother?s Netflix documentaries
That was claimed a long, long time ago. What is the point of bringing all the negatives back up? If we are talking or writing about her, better to discuss happy things. For instance, she now has four grandchildren whom she would adore. And as they get older we may see some similarities to her....already it is obvious that the Cambridge children will be tall and slim like both of their parents and Diana. And they are all healthy!
How did they even come up with that number?
The portrayal of Diana is tedious and one dimensional. It's better to focus on happy things, I agree.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on May 10, 2020, 10:46:57 AM
How did they even come up with that number?
The portrayal of Diana is tedious and one dimensional. It's better to focus on happy things, I agree.
This was mentioned in Diana her True story that she made 4 suicide attempts IIRC
I'm sure that's accurate, and I'm sure they were cries for help. It seems she was pretty unhappy sometimes. Unlike many, I don't believe that her unhappiness was only because of difficulties in her relationship with the POW. There is a lot we just don't know and I hope they can keep it all private now.
Quote from: Princess Cassandra on May 13, 2020, 09:35:49 PM
I'm sure that's accurate, and I'm sure they were cries for help. It seems she was pretty unhappy sometimes. Unlike many, I don't believe that her unhappiness was only because of difficulties in her relationship with the POW. There is a lot we just don't know and I hope they can keep it all private now.
Double post auto-merged: May 14, 2020, 07:51:13 AM
Since this was information that Diana gave to Morton, we don't know whether they were cries for help, or real attempts or what the exact truth is..She didn't always give him accurate information and he may have hyped things up in the book. But this information has been out tehre for some time and probably has some truth In it.. I think she did cut herself, possibly she made a half hearted suicide attempt or 2 as well.
Whatever she said in tape, her state of mind reveals what she was attracting around her.
Quote from: wannable on May 14, 2020, 12:19:12 PM
Whatever she said in tape, her state of mind reveals what she was attracting around her.
She did tell Morton that she made suicide attempts and that she cut herself. I think she did cut herself, and she may have made a "cry for help" suicide attempt but I don't think she was serious about it and I think that if her self cutting and suicide attempts had been frequent, she would not have been able to work.. She did do engagements and was reasonably busy, so I think that if she'd been making frequent attempts the Palace would have had to withdraw her from work, on grounds of ill health for a time...
Quote from: QueenAlex on May 10, 2020, 01:22:19 PM
This was mentioned in Diana her True story that she made 4 suicide attempts IIRC
Ah, got it. Thanks for the info.
I think it's completely unnecessary to bring it up again and to profit from it too. Very distasteful. Most people knew what she went through. And most people go through trials and tribulations. It's better to remember the positive contributions she made. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 20, 2020, 10:41:08 PM
Ah, got it. Thanks for the info.
I think it's completely unnecessary to bring it up again and to profit from it too. Very distasteful. Most people knew what she went through. And most people go through trials and tribulations. It's better to remember the positive contributions she made. IMO.
Its part of her life and she is the one who used Morton to put out this informaton that her marriage was unhapy, that she was depressed and according to herself made suiicide attempts.
Yes, she put that information out there because of her desperation and the situation she was in. It is still very tasteless for others to profit from it. IMO.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 22, 2020, 05:08:14 AM
Yes, she put that information out there because of her desperation and the situation she was in. It is still very tasteless for others to profit from it. IMO.
So nobody can write a biography or article about Diana?
Quote from: QueenAlex on June 22, 2020, 08:12:04 AM
So nobody can write a biography or article about Diana?
They most certainly can. This however is a sensationalist documentary intended on cashing in on her most troublesome period. Diana isn't here to defend herself. Other people can comment on the distastefulness of it all.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 23, 2020, 12:37:57 PM
They most certainly can. This however is a sensationalist documentary intended on cashing in on her most troublesome period. Diana isn't here to defend herself. Other people can comment on the distastefulness of it all.
That's the way things go. Sensation sells. and Diana herself put out pretty much all the "sensationalist" information.. telling how she had had rows with her father, and stepmother, about her sex life, her relationships with men, her rows with Charles etc. So if she did not want that information to become public knownledge, honestly she should not have talked.
Quote from: QueenAlex on June 23, 2020, 01:25:13 PM
That's the way things go. Sensation sells. and Diana herself put out pretty much all the "sensationalist" information.. telling how she had had rows with her father, and stepmother, about her sex life, her relationships with men, her rows with Charles etc. So if she did not want that information to become public knownledge, honestly she should not have talked.
I think some of that info came from the Settelen tapes? Those weren't meant to be aired?
She did one book and one interview discussing some things because she felt she had no other choice. So it's not like she wrote a journal and then published intimate details. Alot of things that we do know are hearsay from people who benefited off of her and i'm not so sure she would have approved of it.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 23, 2020, 09:57:29 PM
I think some of that info came from the Settelen tapes? Those weren't meant to be aired?
She did one book and one interview discussing some things because she felt she had no other choice. So it's not like she wrote a journal and then published intimate details. Alot of things that we do know are hearsay from people who benefited off of her and i'm not so sure she would have approved of it.
She kind of did. She talked about her marriage to Andrew Morton. She then talked about it with more detail and more dramatic incidents, to Peter Settelen. DId she relaly think that he would not try to make use of hte material she had handed him? WHy was she talking ot her voice coach about her private life anyway? THese things are not "hearsay".. they are Diana's own words...
Diana felt she needed to set the record straight. Thus the Morton book.
The Settelen tapes were private. Diana isn't here to explain why she decided to speak to him in that manner. But she would not have permitted him to publicize the tapes and benefit off of them. That was wrong of him, IMO. And not her fault.
^^^While I do agree that it was wrong of Peter Settelen to have ever released those tapes, I do believe that the late Diana, Princess of Wales showed a stunning lack of judgement by sharing some of the information that was recorded.
Not necessarily. She did not speak in 'intimate' or crude terms about her and PC.
He and Diana might have known each other for sometime and their working relationship might have allowed some 'closenes' (I don't mean romantic) to form.
I remember reading that he helped her to better her speeches by introducing 'role play', i.e. letting Diana pretending to be someone else in order to practice her speech. So they seemed to have had a 'rapport' with each other.
In hindsight, I think he was not to be trusted. But had Diana lived he wouldn't have dared to release those tapes which I think she was well aware of.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on June 26, 2020, 09:50:22 PM
Not necessarily. She did not speak in 'intimate' or crude terms about her and PC.
He and Diana might have known each other for sometime and their working relationship might have allowed some 'closenes' (I don't mean romantic) to form.
I remember reading that he helped her to better her speeches by introducing 'role play', i.e. letting Diana pretending to be someone else in order to practice her speech. So they seemed to have had a 'rapport' with each other.
In hindsight, I think he was not to be trusted. But had Diana lived he wouldn't have dared to release those tapes which I think she was well aware of.
He would likely have found some way to do so, if he needed the money.. Publishing them abroad, or quoting bits of them. He didn't know that Diana was going to die prematurely, and when she did he hastened to make use of them. Diana was extremely stupid to give this man who was just a voice coach such dynamite material. He possibley intended to hold onto it for a long time and it woudl be his pension fund...
Quote from: QueenAlex on June 27, 2020, 07:00:08 AM
He would likely have found some way to do so, if he needed the money.. Publishing them abroad, or quoting bits of them. He didn't know that Diana was going to die prematurely, and when she did he hastened to make use of them. Diana was extremely stupid to give this man who was just a voice coach such dynamite material. He possibley intended to hold onto it for a long time and it woudl be his pension fund...
Diana wasn't 'extremely stupid'. She's not here to give her reasons for telling him.
For all we know Settelen might have discussed private things with Diana also.
Diana would have sued him had the tapes been published and he knew this.
It doesn't matter waht Settelen discussed with her. His life is not going to be splashed all over the tabloids. She must have realised that by letting herself being taped talking about pushing her stepmother, or her sex life, she was handing someone she barely knew explosive material and that it was possible that he would find someway to use it and sell it.
Settelen could not have used it without facing a lawsuit from Diana.
She talked about things that were mentioned in the Morton book so it wasn't unknown prior.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on July 04, 2020, 08:42:38 PM
Settelen could not have used it without facing a lawsuit from Diana.
She talked about things that were mentioned in the Morton book so it wasn't unknown prior.
I dont think she could stop him publishing abroad, or quoting bits of the tapes in some other medium. And in any case it didn't arise. He has been able to publish the tapes, get money out of it and Diana's family have had to hear all sorts of indiscreet stuff that she let out to a total stranger. If she flet the need to tell people that she had slapped her father or pushed her stepmother why not tell a therapist or a close freind?
The tape was recorded in '91 or '92 if i'm not mistaken?
So for four year while Diana was alive he did nothing with it. And he wasn't a stranger, he was her coach and they had a working relationship. Why Diana felt compelled to get into those subjects with him is something only she knew.
Quote from: oak_and_cedar on July 06, 2020, 03:55:43 AM
The tape was recorded in '91 or '92 if i'm not mistaken?
So for four year while Diana was alive he did nothing with it. And he wasn't a stranger, he was her coach and they had a working relationship. Why Diana felt compelled to get into those subjects with him is something only she knew.
I think that she worked iwth him after the Morton book so she had had a chance to "pour out her story", to Morton already...
He was someone she hired to teach her public speaking.. not a friend..
He probably thought of the tapes as a pension fund, that he would make money out of many years later when he could find some way of making use of them...
They were colleagues in a way and probably spent many hours working on her speeches. People who work together oftentimes get comfortable with each other. I don't think she said anything that was unknown.
Settelen could not have released anything without facing a lawsuit from Diana preventing the info getting out. And she would have won the lawsuit IMO.
They were not "colleagues". He was working for her, and it seems to me very odd to pour out a lot of personal and damaging information to a man she hardly knew who was hired to help her speak in public. Diana was always afraid of people spying on her, and yet she poured out a lot of information about her private life, to a man who was just working for her?? If she didn't say anything that wasn't known already, Settelen would probably have argued that Diana had released most of this information already so he had a case for publishing it. What she said was very damaging. There were reports of rows with her father and stepmother, but she was now confirming them.. that she'd slapped her father and pushed her stepmother...
They were 'colleagues' in the sense that they had a working relationship. Companies have managers and directors who hire employees to work for them, yet they are also all considered colleagues since they work together and have a working relationship.
She had worked with him for many months and said nothing more than she did in the Morton book.
Diana agreed to the Morton interview. She did not (and obviously could not) consent to Settelen releasing that tape. That is the difference.
People argue with their parents all the time. Diana clearly loved her father and he forgave her. He was probably no angel himself.
I don't remember her saying she pushed Raine down the stairs but I need to go back and watch it.
People you hire to provide you with a service aren't colleagues.. and even if they were you dont go telling them a lot of personal stuff...and let them tape you doing it. Diana was sure that Charles and others were spying on her... she had her apartment swept for bugs and yet she allowed a man she hardly knew to tape her talking about private family matters. Why? She and her brother treated Raine very badly, and were witnessed kicking her stuff down the stairs by Raine's secretary. I'm not sure but I think she also witnessed Di pushing her stepmother. There were stories swirling around about volatile behaviour on Diana's part.. and she confirmed some of them to Settelen. Why do that? All she did was give credence to the idea that she was a volatile hot tempered person who acted very oddly at times. and yes people argue wit their parents but they dont usually slap an elderly man who is their father. And she was still talking of it years later, so its not something that she did in the heat of the moment and then regretted...
Just because you hire someone doesn't mean you can't have a working relationship with them. It cannot be assumed that they 'hardly knew each other'.
And this was information Diana gave up voluntarily, if there was something she did not want to say, she would not have said it. As opposed to being possibly 'spied on'.
Diana was also treated poorly by Raine. She mentioned Raine criticising her often when younger. Diana did make up with Raine and they were close so I don't think there was any hard feelings from Raine's side. Raine even had nice things to say about Diana in 2015 I think. So even years later Raine remembered Diana fondly and was apparently sympathetic to her.
Diana was encouraged by her siblings to confront their father. It was not because she was 'volatile'. People make mistakes and her father forgave her. Earl Spencer was no angel himself and his actions in some ways were worse than those by his hurt teenage daughter.
There was one on ITV last night. I watched abt half of it. Anyone seen it? there were none of the usual suspects talking, but James Colthurst and one of Dis' cousins..
Diana by Sarah Bradford
Diana by Sarah Bradford (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/506684.Diana)
I highly recommend this book.
Dear Lord. This is bad. Really bad. Diana the Musical
https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444189366998417411
Though, surpassed by this. This is what brain bleach was invented for.
https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444219829670535168
Poor Diana. Whatever did she do in life to deserve this? First Kirsten Stewart, the latest in a long line of actresses in wigs and without swishing around impersonating her on screen, and now this! I doubt it will be successful. Diana?s original fans will think it?s bizarre, younger people won?t be interested. Love the comment on the Twitter about reporting it to the War Crimes Tribunal!
I?m still shaking my head and wishing I hadn?t clicked on it.
Quote from: Macrobug67 on October 03, 2021, 01:07:09 AM
Dear Lord. This is bad. Really bad. Diana the Musical
https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444189366998417411
Though, surpassed by this. This is what brain bleach was invented for.
https://twitter.com/bmay/status/1444219829670535168
I can?t believe Diana?s musical got bad reviews
Quote from: Curryong on October 03, 2021, 01:13:42 AM
Poor Diana. Whatever did she do in life to deserve this? First Kirsten Stewart, the latest in a long line of actresses in wigs and without swishing around impersonating her on screen, and now this! I doubt it will be successful. Diana?s original fans will think it?s bizarre, younger people won?t be interested. Love the comment on the Twitter about reporting it to the War Crimes Tribunal!
I?m agreed with that
Royal experts slam 'unnecessarily gratuitous' new Diana film Spencer | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-10072367/Royal-experts-slam-unnecessarily-gratuitous-new-Diana-film-Spencer.html)
Kristen Stewart Reveals Regret About Playing Princess Diana | PEOPLE.com (https://people.com/royals/kristen-stewart-reveals-one-regret-playing-princess-diana-spencer/)
Prince Harry and William 'will be very angry? as new Diana film Spencer branded ?cruel' | Royal | News | Express.co.uk (https://www.express.co.uk/news/royal/1503171/prince-harry-news-william-princess-diana-film-spencer-royal-news-latest)
Dukes of Cambridge and Sussex not pleasure with his mom?s movies of Spencer got bad review
What was the first book written about Diana? Who was the author?
Here's an early book from 1983 written by Penny Junor.
Diana: Princess of Wales: Junor, Penny: 9780385190077: Amazon.com: Books (https://www.amazon.com/Diana-Princess-Wales-Penny-Junor/dp/0385190077)
We've now reached 15+ pages on this thread. It's time to close it and open a new one.