The new royal titles for Archie and Lilibet 2023

[Amabel2]

nvolved with the institution in any capacity other than the familial one. But once again, that is not really the case. Further proof that it was not really the unfairness of the system that bothered him, it was the fact that he wasn?t higher in the ranks.

Of course that was his bugbear. Alhtough I dot think that anyone except perhaps a few in the RF and RH knew HOW angry he was about not being the heir.  ALbeit if he had been born the heir, he would probably have worked up a grievance about that, perhaps felt that he shoudl be able to live in the US until he became king.....

[HistoryGirl2]

^ Maybe so. And I have to admit, even though I?ve never had the highest opinion of him, I had no clue how angry he was/is. It really is such a shame though?to ruin a relationship with a sibling over such petty slights. But I think all members really need to make a concerted effort to not have it bother them. I think some jealousy is natural, but to let it eat away at you for decades is a bit much.

And the worst part? You can throw any tantrum or hurl any accusations you want, it?s not changing. I think he gambled that if he embarrassed them publicly, they?d cave and finally give them what they want: to exist on the same plane of importance as William and Kate. But they?ve found that the monarchy just closed its ranks and is treating them as outsiders. I?m sure they feel wronged, but there was really nothing else to be done. The accusations that were hurled were serious and damaging. And there?s few that stood up to scrutiny in the end.

[Amabel2]

well you kind of assume that someoe born into the RF knows the score and knows that he is in a particular place and will never have the same treatment exactly as someone who is  a bit higher than him in the rankings.  Harry knows that the oly way he could be king, would be if WIlliam had died or not had any legitimate children and surely he does not wish for his brother not to have kids, (assuming WIll wanted them) and SURELY he could not wish for his brother's premature death.
He can't have believed, either that by lashing out at the family, accusing them of racism, coldness etc etc was going to bring about any change.  He would still be the second son and his brother's children will some day overtake him in the notice of hte public. 
But a sensible second son would surely have realised that although he is probalby never going to be monarch he still has a very luxurious lifestyle and has the option, if he tried, of taking time out of Royal life or even giving it up completely.  It seems that if he had wanted, Charles and hte queen were wiling to let him and MEg give up royal duties, altogehter, if he found something he wanted to do, and he coudl have lived a private life, running an estate, or staying in the army till retirement age.  Mabye even working in Africa as he seemed to like to do.  But As far as I can gather Harry did not really have any definite ideas of what he wanted to do, and what he really wanted was to make as much money as he could, but still keep his finger in the Royal duties pie.....
and business esp of the nebulous kind that H and Meg are doing, is something that would not be tolerated for a royal prince who was working.  Edward tired it on a much smaller scale and it did not work out.  It is too subject to arguments about dubious business practice, undue use of influence because of one's royal position and so on.  Peter Phillips got in trouble a while ago for using his royal connection to make an advertisment, and he is not titled or a workig royal.

[HistoryGirl2]

^ I thought the same. I?m still incredulous that he doesn?t seem to understand how it is. But maybe it?s not that he doesn?t understand, it?s that he won?t accept it. He?s always seemed lost to me, but he did have a role: supporting William. That would have been his role in the RF as a working royal, but you?re right, I think the family would have been a bit disappointed with his choice to leave, but they would have supported him in his choice and moved on.

Like they did originally. Of course, ?support? can mean different things to different people. I think from the RF?s perspective, support meant emotional good will. Harry felt it meant, still being allowed to keep his military honors, access to his charities, and security paid for by the family. When that didn?t happen, he saw it as them being ?unsupportive? and mean. But I don?t think there was anything personal in the decision. To the RF, out means out of all professional responsibilities *and goodies*.

I think for as much as he claims to just wanna be free and normal, it doesn?t seem to align with any of his actions. He?s clearly very attached to his title and the privileges that come with it. And he wants the same privileges for his children. That?s why the whole ?radical change? they claim to wanna create rings hollow to me. It?s still the same systemic inequality that is being perpetuated.

[Kristeh-H]

So many excellent posts here! 

The birthright remark was not addressed to William or about jealousy or anything else. It was given in reference to all the children of a monarch and their children being automatically given the status of HRH Prince and Princess as per the LPs of 1917. It?s automatic (even if they all lived in Timbuktu) unless the sovereign issues LPs specifically barring them, and this Charles has not done.

Yes, the birthright comment wasn't referencing William in particular, but it still seems hypocritical when Harry is obviously so jealous of William's birthright.

[Amabel2]

I think he did not like the role of supporting William,  In public he was jolly Jokey Harry, but in private he clearly had a bitter anger against his brother and their relationship wasnt good. I suspect that the 2 of them didnt even really bond over the loss of Diana, as they got older.
If he had been the older brother, I feel he would have been resentful that he was reminded, often, that he was the future king and could  not just frolic around as he chose, and maybe that he should look for a  nice girl and settle down. He would be resentful of hte fact that he would not be allowed a combat role, and that he would only maybe get a few years (as WIll did) to do an ordinary job like being a helicopter pilot.....
I wonder if he might have still made a fuss and said that he wanted to take time off being full time royal till he was actually close to being king.. that he should be able to buy a house in the US and hang out iwth movie stars and make money however it occurred to him to do so... after all he was n ot yet the King.
It does seem that in the couple of years before he left royal life, he was offered ways out of it.  Im sure the queen and Charles were not happy, because they had counted on Harry being a working royal and having a role supporting Will, but they loved him and were prepared to break with tradition and give him an out from the royal duties, if he really wanted it.  But it seems that H did not really have a clear idea of anything he wanted to do. He could have managed an estate, he could have stayed in the army, but he didn't want to do that, it might have been more difficult to arrange for him to go and work in conservation in Africa, but Im sure that they would have tried to arrange it, if H was really committed to it.  Meg COULD have worked as an actress tho
I think that woudl have caused talk, or she could have taken some role in the acting world, or written books....but I have the feeling that what Meg wanted and Harry wants it too, was for them to be free to do what they liked but still come back to the Uk and do a bit of royal work.

[TLLK]

I think the matter of Harry's children's titles should have been settled a long time ago, perhaps back in 2012, before he married and had children, and I hope if there are any plans to amend the 1917 Letters Patent, that Charles or William will do so before the next generation is born.  In general, I don't like the idea of taking away a title retroactively--unless the person's behavior is so egregarious that he or she is deemed unworthy.  And I know that taking titles away is a much more complicated procedure than granting them.

I hope everyone is satisfied with how this situation has turned out.  I have a lot of sympathy for Charles, as the father of a difficult son and a grandfather who would, no doubt, hope to have a relationship with Archie and Lili.  Perhaps this will ease a little bit of Harry and Meghan's angst and envy.  Though once again, I think they have made themselves look a bit poorer.  It's more obvious than ever that they are very conscious of their status and determined to cling to the privileges of royalty while shunning the responsibilities.

As Nightowl pointed out, hopefully, Harry can reflect on the fact that the crown is William's birthright and quit his whinging.

       

@Kristeh-H -I agree. I hope with the couple's recent announcement in People magazine, that there will be a bit of peace coming from California. I have to admit  though that personally I would have preferred that there had been a joint statement from the King and the Sussexes acknowledging that  the parents have chosen to have their children use their royal titles of Prince and Princess.  I wish that had been the scenario over reading about it in People and the later messages from the Sussexes' spokesperson justifying their statement and then one  that the royal website would be updated.  Sorry but I can't help but compare it to the announcement that Prince Edward was the new Duke of Edinburgh.

[PrincessOfPeace]

I'd like to see a copy of their baptismal certificates. It would be interesting to see how they arranged 'Princess Lillibet of Sussex' on a California State legal document.

[Amabel2]

why would they need to?

[PrincessOfPeace]

So she'd be Lilibet M-W?

[Amabel2]

So she'd be Lilibet M-W?

not sure what you mean, Are you talkinga bout birth certs or baptismal certs?  When she was born, im sure it stated on her birth cert that she was Lilibet Diana MW, as is her legal name

[PrincessOfPeace]

I mean baptismal. The statement released said Princess Lilibet of Sussex was baptised by the Archbishop of Los Angeles.

[Kristeh-H]

@Kristeh-H -I agree. I hope with the couple's recent announcement in People magazine, that there will be a bit of peace coming from California. I have to admit  though that personally I would have preferred that there had been a joint statement from the King and the Sussexes acknowledging that  the parents have chosen to have their children use their royal titles of Prince and Princess.  I wish that had been the scenario over reading about it in People and the later messages from the Sussexes' spokesperson justifying their statement and then one  that the royal website would be updated.  Sorry but I can't help but compare it to the announcement that Prince Edward was the new Duke of Edinburgh.

Thanks, TLLK.  I'm not sure that the Palace and the Sussexes will ever speak in unison again.

[Kristeh-H]

I think he did not like the role of supporting William,  In public he was jolly Jokey Harry, but in private he clearly had a bitter anger against his brother and their relationship wasnt good. I suspect that the 2 of them didnt even really bond over the loss of Diana, as they got older.
If he had been the older brother, I feel he would have been resentful that he was reminded, often, that he was the future king and could  not just frolic around as he chose, and maybe that he should look for a  nice girl and settle down. He would be resentful of hte fact that he would not be allowed a combat role, and that he would only maybe get a few years (as WIll did) to do an ordinary job like being a helicopter pilot.....
I wonder if he might have still made a fuss and said that he wanted to take time off being full time royal till he was actually close to being king.. that he should be able to buy a house in the US and hang out iwth movie stars and make money however it occurred to him to do so... after all he was n ot yet the King.
It does seem that in the couple of years before he left royal life, he was offered ways out of it.  Im sure the queen and Charles were not happy, because they had counted on Harry being a working royal and having a role supporting Will, but they loved him and were prepared to break with tradition and give him an out from the royal duties, if he really wanted it.  But it seems that H did not really have a clear idea of anything he wanted to do. He could have managed an estate, he could have stayed in the army, but he didn't want to do that, it might have been more difficult to arrange for him to go and work in conservation in Africa, but Im sure that they would have tried to arrange it, if H was really committed to it.  Meg COULD have worked as an actress tho
I think that woudl have caused talk, or she could have taken some role in the acting world, or written books....but I have the feeling that what Meg wanted and Harry wants it too, was for them to be free to do what they liked but still come back to the Uk and do a bit of royal work.

:goodpost:  Yes and I've started to comment before that for all his whinging, I don't think Harry would be happy if he were the first in line.  I don't think he actually wants the job of being king.  He just doesn't want William to be ranked higher or get any privilege that he (Harry) doesn't get--at least it seems that way to me. 

I think the UK is very fortunate that William is the heir.

[Amabel2]

I mean baptismal. The statement released said Princess Lilibet of Sussex was baptised by the Archbishop of Los Angeles.

that's not really a legal document is it?  It is from the church. and there is no state church in the US.  I can't see why one would put Princess on a baptismal cert as it is meant to be an announcement that the child has been received into a Christian church... Princess is not Lili's profession at her age.

[HistoryGirl2]

Thanks, TLLK.  I'm not sure that the Palace and the Sussexes will ever speak in unison again.

I have to agree, and this was their choice, not the Palace?s. They have said before that BP and KP don?t have their best interest in mind and that all they do is lie. So, I?m sure if BP had released a statement, they would have found some fault with it; it wasn?t soon enough or they tried to outdo the People article. It?s always something.

So, I think BP has learned. Just let them do their own thing, let them speak for themselves the way they claim to want to, and just ignore the best they can.

It?s what all parents should do when children throw tantrums. You can?t get down to their level and start tossing insults. Behave like the adult and let them see that those tactics will do them no good.

[Amabel2]

Thanks, TLLK.  I'm not sure that the Palace and the Sussexes will ever speak in unison again.

I dotnt think so. I think that Charles waited to see what way they would jump and now that they have announced that the children are princess and prince, BP is willing to update the website.  BUt if Charles had had anything done about this before, whichever way he swung he would probalby have been attacked by the Sussexes. If he had decided to issue letters patent to say that Arch and Lili were not to have HRH or Princely rank, he would be accused of being raicst and horrible to his grandchildren.  If he had had them updated as HRH, they would have accused him of going against THEIR wishes, and dragging their darling children into a world of titles which they never wanted and genetic pain.

[TLLK]

I'm sorry but I have to say this. Leave those children alone!! They are babies for goodness sake! The titles of prince and princess with the style of HRH is their birthright!!  This mess is on social media and I am just sick of it!!! Prince  Harry is their father and BLOOD royal. It was done the minute the Queen passed away. Their grandfather didn't need to approve anything.

@Yale-I respectfully disagree that "Their grandfather didn't need to approve anything." The Sussexes  wisely waited to make the announcement until they knew that King Charles would adhere to the Letters Patent of 1917 which would elevate their children to Prince and Princess as they are the grandchildren of the monarch through the male line. He could have issued new ones that would have his Sussex grandchildren not being known as Prince or Princess as LPs are the monarch's prerogative.  Prior to the late Queen's death, Archie and Lilibet were the great-grandchildren of the monarch and thus their only titles would be related Prince Harry's subsidiary ones.  Reportedly during the time period leading up the late QEII's funeral, the then  the new King Charles had a conversation with his second son assuring him that Archie and Lilibet would be Prince Archie and Princess Lilibet of Sussex. The Sussexes then chose to wait until after Lilibet's christening to make the announcement regarding the elevation of their children's titles.

@Curryong is correct here with this post.

It was given in reference to all the children of a monarch and their children being automatically given the status of HRH Prince and Princess as per the LPs of 1917. It?s automatic (even if they all lived in Timbuktu) unless the sovereign issues LPs specifically barring them, and this Charles has not done.

The Letters Patent of 1917 issued by King George V have been "tweaked" now and then over the decades. For example, children of then Princess Elizabeth and the Duke of Edinburgh were not to be styled and titled "HRH Prince and Princess" until her ascension to the throne. However the then reigning monarch, King George VI issued Letters Patent on Oct. 22, 1948 allowing  their children to assume Princely titles and the style "HRH." Had the LP of 1917 been adhered to, then Charles and Anne would have been  known by the titles of the children of a duke which would have been, the Earl of Merioneth and Lady Anne Mountbatten respectively

[Amabel2]

Do you think that Charles had a chat with Harry about the vexed question of the children's titles?  I am more inclined to think that he waited until they said somethng, ie telling the world that Princess Lilibet had been baptised and Charles then updated the website and went along with it. Its possible that Harry may have raised the question, and asked if the kids were definitely HRH and Charles wold have said that by the 1917 LP, yes they were...but I think he would be wary of saying anything much to his son on this issue.
I gather that BP has said that the children are not going to be addressed as HRH because their parents are not using HRH.

[HistoryGirl2]

I don?t think Charles would have said no to this, to be honest. That would have been seen as rather spiteful because what reason would he have to say no?

[Amabel2]

well as I've said, legally, they are Prince/ss and HRH from the time Charles became king.  ANd I dont think that Charles really wanted to take away those titles although he could do so if he did wnat to slim things down. He's conservaitve, but he is trying to do some slimming down for the sake of teh monarchy as a whole. 
According to Meghan he was considering taking away the HRH from Hs children. I dont believe he was, but she said it.
I just feel that Charles was probably wary and tight lipped on the subject and I think it is more likely that Harry raised the issue, if anyone did.   Charles coudl just then reply that according to the 1917 LP, yes they were princes, and leave it at that.

[HistoryGirl2]

Exactly. I just don?t think he?d risk the bad PR just for what? To deny them something that grandchildren through the male line have enjoyed since 1917? I just can?t see it.

[changemhysoul]

A statement about the titles would've never come from the Palace because they didn't want to give the titles.

As stated, Charles knew about the kids keeping their titles for a while. He had the chance to make it public when giving the address or when all of the titles were updated after the Queen passed. Instead, he waited 6 months and let his grandkids (Archie and Lili) be subjected to talk and gossip. Also, when the news from the Palace started coming out, it said that BP were waiting for the Sussex's to make an official announcement.

Their announcement would never compare with Edward's because they didn't want to do it, their hands were forced. If Charles cared about giving his grandkids their birthright, he wouldn't have othered them and would've had it updated along with his other grandkids.

What?s the reason behind Harry and Meghan calling Lilibet ?princess??

That being said, according to this piece, Meghan was correct in the Oprah interview when she said they were thinking about issuing a second LP to take Archie and any other kids titles away. Apparently, Charles/BP had been briefing the media about doing it...but are NOW saying that they never had any intention of doing that...after it had been made public what they planned on doing. They saw how it would look and had to change course.

And the now the media are ticked and have egg on their faces because they've been touting the line that they wouldn't get it. They were feed back information.

But it doesn't change the fact that Charles knew they were going to keep the titles for Archie and Lili and instead of being a straight forward King and Grandfather, he made sure they were subjected to rumors, speculation and etc by othering and not updating when the others were updated.

Bonus, the othering of Meghan and their kids. I'm sorry, May 6th is Archie's bday, it's just as much an excuse for Harry to opt-out. They keep pretending that these aren't Harry's kids as well.

Also, I would be bitter too if my family/palace kept forcing this image of being close and jokey for the public when my older brother really wanted nothing to do with me behind the scenes. If his family had actually addressed and cared about his trouble's as kid, didn't force him to continue on, cared about the little boy that lost his mother, showed some real interest and didn't throw him to the wolves for their benefit. We might not be here now. If they had cared about the the attacks against his wife and kids, we wouldn't be here. If they had actually shown as much care and closeness as they allowed to be shown for the cameras. We wouldn't have gotten here.

[TLLK]

Exactly. I just don?t think he?d risk the bad PR just for what? To deny them something that grandchildren through the male line have enjoyed since 1917? I just can?t see it.

@HistoryGirl2 and @Amabel2 - I doubt that Charles would have denied them the titles, but the option did remain. As to the announcement, I have read that the Sussexes have requested to not have the monarchy speak on their behalf, so" the ball was in their court" so to say  as to when they wanted to shared the news. With all the publicity activity that the couple had going into November, December and January for the docuseries and Spare, I can see why they'd want to wait on the announcement of the children's titles. Waiting until the publicity died down and then they could share fresh news in the late winter and early spring seems logical to me.

[HistoryGirl2]

A statement about the titles would've never come from the Palace because they didn't want to give the titles.

As stated, Charles knew about the kids keeping their titles for a while. He had the chance to make it public when giving the address or when all of the titles were updated after the Queen passed. Instead, he waited 6 months and let his grandkids (Archie and Lili) be subjected to talk and gossip. Also, when the news from the Palace started coming out, it said that BP were waiting for the Sussex's to make an official announcement.

Their announcement would never compare with Edward's because they didn't want to do it, their hands were forced. If Charles cared about giving his grandkids their birthright, he wouldn't have othered them and would've had it updated along with his other grandkids.

What?s the reason behind Harry and Meghan calling Lilibet ?princess??

That being said, according to this piece, Meghan was correct in the Oprah interview when she said they were thinking about issuing a second LP to take Archie and any other kids titles away. Apparently, Charles/BP had been briefing the media about doing it...but are NOW saying that they never had any intention of doing that...after it had been made public what they planned on doing. They saw how it would look and had to change course.

And the now the media are ticked and have egg on their faces because they've been touting the line that they wouldn't get it. They were feed back information.

But it doesn't change the fact that Charles knew they were going to keep the titles for Archie and Lili and instead of being a straight forward King and Grandfather, he made sure they were subjected to rumors, speculation and etc by othering and not updating when the others were updated.

Bonus, the othering of Meghan and their kids. I'm sorry, May 6th is Archie's bday, it's just as much an excuse for Harry to opt-out. They keep pretending that these aren't Harry's kids as well.

Also, I would be bitter too if my family/palace kept forcing this image of being close and jokey for the public when my older brother really wanted nothing to do with me behind the scenes. If his family had actually addressed and cared about his trouble's as kid, didn't force him to continue on, cared about the little boy that lost his mother, showed some real interest and didn't throw him to the wolves for their benefit. We might not be here now. If they had cared about the the attacks against his wife and kids, we wouldn't be here. If they had actually shown as much care and closeness as they allowed to be shown for the cameras. We wouldn't have gotten here.

Sorry, I?m too cheap to pay for a subscription to the Telegraph, could you please quote the part that says Charles was briefing the media about taking the titles away?

My recollection of the Oprah interview was that they were upset that Archie hadn?t been made a prince at birth, which Meghan claimed was against protocol?something that has since been proven to be false. When asked, why he hadn?t been made a prince by Oprah, Meghan then implied it was because of his skin color. A lie that was so ludicrous I can barely fathom was uttered.

Personally, I think the Queen?s decline and death took precedence over any announcement about titles. Even William?s title was not made official until recently. Things were also up in the air about Edward?s title as Duke of Edinburgh for a while, too. The Palace didn?t really make too much of a fuss, but the media was on a ?will they, won?t they? thing about that. And those are current, working members of the family. I?m not sure why after the Queen?s death, Charles should rush to announce that Meghan and Harry?s children are a prince and princess when when they live in America and didn?t wanna have anything to do with the family.

It?s now been said that after the Queen?s death, Charles assuaged Harry?s top concern: that there would be no problem with his children being called prince and princess. It?s also good to remember that this was *before* Harry decided to say and continue to talk on and on and on about how unthoughtful and mean his whole family is. So, I think the Palace was quite rightly concerned about making any announcement regarding their family.

Harry could have reached out and called his father to ask him to please put out the announcement through BP. But then again, after trashing the entirety of the family and everything they stand for, I can imagine why he wouldn?t really wanna pick up the phone to call Charles himself. So the Palace left it alone. Wise move.

The victimhood act never ceases to amaze me. Look if you wanna trash anyone, that?s your business. Tell ?your truth? and that?s all well and good. But what size cajones does it take to trash everyone the King cares for and then wonder why you and your children?s access to the privileges provided by that very family isn?t his number one priority? It?s truly amazing.