A thread to discuss the emotional and mental health of the late Diana, Princess of Wales.
Secretary of late Princess Diana tells all on her eating disorder hell (http://lifewise.canoe.com/Royals/2017/07/20/22739428.html)
So mentioned this in passing in another thread, but I think it merits more discussion. As usual its one of the usual cast that needs either attention or money again. I know the subject of non expert diagnosis is a touchy subject here, so im sure itll be a lively discussion.
Jephsons mixed record in first reviling, then promoting Diana always makes me look askance at him. Seems the theme of the month, media or others seeking attention and favor, and im sure hes run the numbers and realized theres more money for him in promoting Diana vs criticizing her, although im sure like a lot of people when we leave our job we're sometimes less than thrilled about our boss, considering he didnt have much choice after Panorama it understandable but he always seems kinda weasle-y to me.
But seems hes digging out this gem for the 20th anniversary sweepstakes. But given the family history with Sarah having it, and her appearance for the first couple years after the engagement, she shrank and shrank, where even herself mentioned one of the things that made her bulimia harder for people to detect was that one stays the same size having it, so its a possible explanation, her shrinking has often been attributed to her bulimia, but her own words give us a clue that maybe what hes saying is on target.
What does everyone else think?
I do think that what Jephson said regarding Diana's bulimia is probably correct. Feelings of wanting to disappear, of feeling like an outsider but also gaining validation from helping others are apparently quite common among bulimics in the literature I've read. However, Diana probably never really discussed her eating disorders in any depth with her staff, as a person untrained in psychiatry she may not have fully realised what the motivations behind her eating disorder really signified, and of course, as far as I know none of us are psychiatrists or therapists working in the area of eating disorders, so we can't say yea or nay to it really.
I do think the bulimia came from a lot of different things, which we have discussed here; not being the wanted son and heir, her mother's seeming abandonment of her, feeling 'dumb' because she didn't achieve at school, Raine becoming the central figure in her beloved father's life. Then there was the gradual realisation that the husband on whom she'd centred all her dreams and hopes was never hers, body image issues, enormous fame, and that her work, including strenuous tours, were undervalued by the BRF and TPTB at Buck Palace. It was probably all these and more, an enormously complex collection of reasons.
there are different kinds of bulimia. Some bulimics don't lose that much weight, others vomit a lot and don't take in enough calories to maintain their weight. Diana dieted and exercised obsessively, then binged and threw up what she was eating so its hardly surprising that she fainted and shrank in weight..
She referred to the vomtting as "comforting" like "having a pair of arms around you..".. so it clearly was a comfort to her to "stop herself gaining weight"..
I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.
As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her. Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.
It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.
I have certainly Read that she suffered from a form of bulimia which was "anoriexic" in that it involved losing weight rather than like some bulimics who don't lose much weight.
I dotnt believe that Jephson hated her, but I don't think he liked her much. He resigned because he was finding her difficult to work with, and he felt that his position when she had done Bashir behnd his back, was untenable. so his book about her is hostile in tone, because he had left her service in a bad frame of mind. IIRC he said that she had left messages on his phone saying something like "the boss knows of your disloyalty" and he felt that he was not wanted any more and coudn't work with her because she was so erratic.
Now I think that he tends to write more sympathetically because he realises that to go on being hostile to her all the timewould not get him many readers.. and he has to spin out his stories and give tehm new twists.
Jephson had some sympathy for DIana. His books did not spare Charles and he reported a rather unpleasant scene of Diana being put down by Charles. The time she was asked what she was planning to do on a royal tour, and Charles cut in and said "Shopping isn't it Darling?" Diana had some actual plans in place to visit charities. I don't think Jephson was a big fan of the PRince of Wales. I read his books and he disapproved of what she did but he did indeed express sympathy with her regarding her domestic situation with the Prince. That anecdote about the shopping remark has found its way into the literature of Charles and Diana. And confirms what Diana said about Charles attitude towards her.
https://books.google.com/books?id=bX98AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA177&lpg=PA177&dq=charles+jephson+diana+shopping+isn%27t+it+darling&source=bl&ots=9qdrBFURTt&sig=jITrvvvXj3UV-CEvIPWrnVk1p2k&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzzufBnprVAhXGVj4KHXjhBaAQ6AEIIjAA#v=onepage&q=charles%20jephson%20diana%20shopping%20isn't%20it%20darling&f=false
Diana's doctor diagnosed her condition as bulimia nervosa. Sarah Spencer was diagnosed ( by the same doctor) as anorexia nervosa.
Double post auto-merged: July 21, 2017, 11:15:32 AM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 21, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.
As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her. Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.
It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.
What general consensus. The only ones with the tittle tattle about Diana "suffering from some form of mental illness" are Junor and Smith. Dimbleby tried but Diana was still alive and would sue him so he did not use the amateur diagnosis based on a College Psychology textbook. Once Diana died, Junor appropriated it. Diana was diagnosed with bulimia nervosa. If she had "anything else" I believe she would have admitted to it before she died.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 21, 2017, 08:40:03 AM
I have come to the conclusion that Patrick Jepherson never really liked Diana at all. He thought she could have been a great Princess of Wales and Queen if she had not antagonized the royal family. I suspect he did advise her to tone it down but she ignored his pleas. Panorama was the last straw because she was going behind his back and engaging in activities that were seriously damaging to her and her position. I understand he resigned after that program was aired. The articles he wrote afterwards are torn between admiring Diana for her PR prowess/charitable activities and hating her for not being disciplined enough to control her emotional responses to those she perceived to be against her.
As for the mental health issues, Diana did confess that she suffered from bulimia. She had seen doctors about it and they had successfully treated her. Some of the symptomatic presentations of that condition can be very similar to other mental health issues such as anorexia and BPD. It would have required a diagnostic assessment by a psychiatrist to truly understand what Diana was suffering from so that an appropriate intervention could be arranged.
It is very tempting to post-diagnose someone as having a condition based on perceived traits in their personality and the choreography of their life. Many authors are engaging in postmortem diagnoses of Diana by simply looking at the APA manual and then matching items to incidents in Diana's life. That is not a very accurate form of diagnosis; although the general consensus that Diana suffered from some form of mental illness at some stage in her life. The actual condition(s) she suffered from may be confidential matters that are only known to her and her doctors.
To answer your question on Jephson I believer you are right he neither disliked her or liked her but my observation of him he envisioned a role with Diana not only as Princess of Wales but also a separated Queen. I think he truly thought that Major spoke the truth when he said in Parliament there were no plans for divorce especially after 2 years where they legally could divorce they were separated 4 years before the Queen ordered the divorce.
As for Diana's eating disorder it was Bulimia though from my own experience she didn't suffer from BPD but Anxiety and Panic disorder. I developed it during my first marriage from the stress of doing everything to please the family I married into. Diana was thrown into public duties even during the engagement and that was the start of the Bulimia with her wanting to please both the RF and public. First would come the anxiety and panic attacks and then the binging and purging that came from the anxiety and panic. I lost a tremendous amount of weight going down to 90 pounds as I would eat but the purging came from an anxiety/ panic attack and yes I had the mood swings as well. It also brings on erratic behavior and to be honest yes I felt like Diana the purging was comforting and therapy not to mention a divorce brought relief. I noticed that at the end of Diana's life she had not only got help that brought it under control but she looked so much healthier and happier post separation. I found it was not so much a mental illness as it is a disorder that develops from being made to feel inferior. In my case it was I was the right religion I was Episcopal he was Catholic, My parents were divorced, I was unable to carry a child to term I had preemies and I was unable to breast feed as my sister in law was able to she was super mom. The list goes on but I hope you get a general idea of those feeling of inadequacy and my Ex not only was emotionally but physically abusive as well and having an affair with my cousin. It does make one want to disappear. Now magnify what Diana had to go through in public and private wanting to please all though she was lucky that Charles wasn't physically abusive toward her.
She had other disorders. She had depression, she self harmed she made suicide attempts according to herself. she certainly had a serious eating disorder and it was never completely "under control"...
'In 1967 two US naval researchers, Dr Thomas Holmes, a psychiatrist, and Richard Rahe, a scientist, had devised 'The Social Readjustment Rating Scale.' According to that formula Diana scored a 407 on a Scale at which 150-299 could lead to mental illness.
Stress chart indicators included marriage, pregnancy, career changes, changes in work responsibilities, outstanding personal achievements, change in living conditions, revision of personal habits, changes in work hours and conditions, change in church activities, change in residence, change in social activities, change in recreation, change in family get-togethers, holidays and Christmas.'
Diana was engaged at 19, married at 20 into a completely different way of life, and had her first child at twenty one. She was thrust into royal duties immediately after the honeymoon and undertook a tour of Wales soon after. She was a success as Princess of Wales.
Looking at the Rating Scale above, how many of us would cope with so many changes in such a short time, with no real emotional support from our own family or in laws?
Have a look at those stress indicators. Diana experienced almost every one.
I doubt if any one of these factors causes something like bulimia or self harming. Depression and stress, yes but to react ot the depressin and stress by cutting yourself is not what most people would do.
^ I was just pointing out that Diana was under horrendous stress from the moment of her engagement, never mind all the issues of her childhood. Looking at those stress indicators increases my sympathy and respect for a young girl who was facing enormous challenges.
QuoteDiana was engaged at 19, married at 20 into a completely different way of life, and had her first child at twenty one. She was thrust into royal duties immediately after the honeymoon and undertook a tour of Wales soon after. She was a success as Princess of Wales.
Looking at the Rating Scale above, how many of us would cope with so many changes in such a short time, with no real emotional support from our own family or in laws?
Have a look at those stress indicators. Diana experienced almost every one.
:goodpost:
@Curryong- Like CP Victoria of Sweden who also suffered from and eating disorder in her late teens/early twenties, Diana found her world changing very rapidly after her engagement. The pressure to be "picture perfect" didn't help either.
Fortunately both women were able to seek treatment for this serious and potentially life threatening mental illness. CP Victoria appears to have had a complete recovery. Unfortunately we'll never know if Diana would have had a relapse or would she have been able to maintain her recovery.
QuoteAs for Diana's eating disorder it was Bulimia though from my own experience she didn't suffer from BPD but Anxiety and Panic disorder
I would believe that there is every possibility that Diana could have been diagnosed with Anxiety and Panic Disorder. Thank you for sharing about this
@Trudie.
@TLLK I am speaking from my own experience but what Diana exhibited is almost the same symptoms with the exception I didn't do self harm. However anxiety and panic attacks can bring on bouts of bulimia and also depression is a big part of the problem. Although my situation was not on the scale of Diana being in the public eye like her I married, had a huge change and had my first child all within the first year of marriage and I was 19. I am no psychiatrist or therapist however the symptoms are classic and do not point to BPD.
When Diana lived on her own, had the part time jobs, and shared an apartment she did not have any issues. She was brought into a stressful situation after she moved into BP and stress brought on the bulimia symptoms.
^ Yes, before her engagement (the worst thing in hindsight that could ever have happened to a vulnerable young girl, and she WAS only a girl) Diana was living in a flat in a friendly apartment block, having fun with pals, going out to the cinema, to spaghetti restaurants, having some weekends in the country with friends. She was productive in her own way, with her cleaning and child caring. No sign of bulimia.
And why couldn't she go out with Charles and her friends doing the same thing? Oh, that's right, her friends were lightweights in Charles's eyes and he was away overseas anyway throughout half the engagement.
While that was happening Diana was stuck away in an apartment in BP, bored, lonely and stressed. She lost pounds in weight, a forerunner of what was to come. Great development in her lifestyle!
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.
Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM
As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.
Quote from: Curryong on July 22, 2017, 02:17:48 AM
^ Yes, before her engagement (the worst thing in hindsight that could ever have happened to a vulnerable young girl, and she WAS only a girl) Diana was living in a flat in a friendly apartment block, having fun with pals, going out to the cinema, to spaghetti restaurants, having some weekends in the country with friends. She was productive in her own way, with her cleaning and child caring. No sign of bulimia.
And why couldn't she go out with Charles and her friends doing the same thing? Oh, that's right, her friends were lightweights in Charles's eyes and he was away overseas anyway throughout half the engagement.
sorry but of course her life was going to change radically if she married the POW. Charles isn't to blame for his being away, it was his job. And Diana was undertaking not just a marriage but a new job and a new lifestyle in marrying nto the RF... of course she could not go on doing a bit of cleaning and childcare and just hanging out with her friends.
Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 06:35:37 AM
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 22, 2017, 05:15:48 AM
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.
Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM
As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.
Obviously it has to do with Diana herself and her heredity.. other women have married into the RF and not reacted as she did. It is sad, but one thing was that she was too fragile to handle the pressure and the strain. Fergie cracked to a certain extent, (and she got a lot more nasty press than Di ever did) but she did not self harm, make suicide attempts or become bulimic.
It is posslble that Diana's psyche was such that she could only handle a very "low stress" life.. and that had she married an ordinary upper class man, her problems mght have lain dormant. But if she had had some strain in that lifestyle as well, say a bout of post natal depression, or her husband having an affair, or just perhaps being busy iwht his own life.. she might have developed a severe depression that caused more problems
That's a remarkably unsympathetic and dismissive response there, amabel, to a girl who was facing enormous changes in her life in her late teens. So she should have just got on with it, and other women in Royal families didn't cut themselves or attempt suicide! BTW, I thought you have always contended that Diana didn't in fact try to commit suicide?
I think that Diana's situation was in fact unique. The BRF has a media spotlight on them that other royal families do not have, and therefore other crown princesses haven't had to deal with it. From the time of her engagement Diana was facing media attention like practically no-one before or since, as well as all the stress involved in the Camilla thing, and learning her new role and a new way of life.
People like Sophie and Kate had years to get used to their fiancés' duties and way of life, and they didn't marry the heir to the throne. Who knows, if they had been thrown in at the deep end after a short engagement and a spectacular wedding with world attention on them, they might have ended up with a nervous breakdown or depression as well.
What other person in modern Royal history who married-in can you point to who had the pressures on them that Diana had?
And Charles mustn't be criticised because after all he was the POW and had his work. Why? He was hardly the President of the US, Sec of the UN, or a brain surgeon going overseas to save someone's life. One of his new biographers has questioned why he couldn't have foreshortened his Australian tour in the wake of his engagement, and indeed he could have done so.
It may have been better if Charles had paused in his mission to save the world and devoted a bit of time and love and attention to his new fiancee instead of mooning over the 'what might have been's with Mrs PB', and his callings in the architecture, medical and environmental fields. Thank heavens after Diana's dreadful experiences the BRF has come to its senses a bit in how it treats young brides!
well its funny how so many people have criticised Kate for not doing enough and when I've argued that she has been treated with the "new" policy of gradually learning and slowly working her way into Royal life I've been criticised for saying this.. and the idea seems ot be that she should be working and working.. as Diana was said to do. (although I understand that Di's number of engagements in her early years of marriage was roughly the same as Kate's).
I don't believe that I said Diana did not make suicide attempts. however I don't think she made serious ones.. I believe she did cut herself, which isn't normal behaviour.. But she said that she threw herself downstairs with the intention of hurting or killing herself.
I don't know if there were other attempts, but I think they were very half hearted.. I suspect if there had been more vehement ones like takng Overdoses and getting found in time, it would have come out...
but I simply am not going to blame Charles for doing his job, and believing that his fiancée was able to cope with his being away for a few weeks..
Diana wasn't IMO able for royal life and I don't know if anything would have helped. She was still unhappy even when Charles was home.. so clearly his staying with her and "giving up his mission to save the world" as you unkindly put it would likely not have made any difference.
he had a job to do as POW. If he had told the queen he wanted to cut short a tour to stay home with his fiancée, I'm sure he would have bene told the tour had been arranged 6 months before and could not be changed. Clearly Diana COULD Not coep wit life in the RF, where at thte time "Duty was all".
Nor could Fergie. But Sarah while she did crack up to a certain extent, did not have the same problems as Diana had. she over ate, had a "mini nervous breakdown" etc,but she wasnt' weeping, seriously depressed, cutting herself or trying suicide.. that I know of.
Yes it is very sad that Diana was in some ways so sutiable as a princess, so good at parts of the job,but so unable to cope with the pressure. But I don't see how the RF cuodl have understood that. They assumed that anyone who married into the family knew the score, that they knew that they would be expected to live in a certain way, to do a lot of dull duties and while they had a lot of leisure and privilege it too was restricted.. The queen has always led that Spartan simple life with hols in Balmoral partly from inclination and parlty because she knows that it makes the RF seem less distant form the ordinary people, if they are seen to be spending their hols in the rian ad cold.
Fergie and Diana both should have known that the RF 's lifestyle was the way it was, and that it wasn't going to change for them.. However Fergie is pretty dim and Diana was not clever and had a facility for blinding herself to everything outside her immediate life. She wanted to marry Charles, she believed she was in love with him and that she'd be happy with him..and so she closed her eyes to anytign that suggested she wasn't really well up enough on royal life to understand how things were done...
Of course it was tragic that she wasn't able to cope.. but I think ti is possible that another upper class girl, even one of 20 or so, wodl have coped a lot better.
Diana could and did cope with life in the royal family--she was a success at her work for the royal family. During her engagement she did not get to live with her family or friends and was placed in the "royal" world even before she married Charles. Why should she not have been concerned when her fiance went off on a tour soon after the engagement. Maybe the engagement could have been postponed a bit so Charles could have had more of a free calendar. It was not "duty" that Diana had to deal with. It was her husband's attachment to another woman. Diana did cope with the pressure as she became customed to her role as Princess of Wales. Fergie OTOH had a bad attitude and spent money like water and started getting bored and getting involved with her "financial advisors". Andrew did not have anybody on the side but she just got very bored with it all. Diana also believed Charles loved her. Diana was up to the job of royal life but she was not going to be happy about the "mistress" tradition. Charles should have spelled it out. I think DIana was smart and clever otherwise she would not have been some dim woman who became a doormat. IT all depended on how the woman would cope with Camilla. That was the root of someone being married to Charles. Women who had self respect would not "cope" with it. Charles should have spelled out ahead of time how Diana should behave within the marriage, that she had to play nice and put up with Camilla.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on July 22, 2017, 05:15:48 AM
@Trudie. Your testimony (if I can call it that) moved me to tears. What a douche that first husband of yours was and there are simply no words to describe the cousin. You must have a lot of mental resources to be able to come through that.
Double post auto-merged: July 22, 2017, 05:20:36 AM
As for mental health issues: some say that every person goes through mental health problems at some point in their lives. Some are better able to cope or mask those issues than others. Living in a fish bowl with detached in-laws and a non-existent family support system can be quite a challenge. I am sure it did contribute to Diana's mental health issues. That being said; I do not entirely rule out the impact of heredity and family history given the fact that some of Diana's siblings suffered eating disorders and her brother has somewhat dysfunctional personal relationships with his various spouses.
Thanks royal but as I have said the scale of Diana's change anyone would develop anxiety and panic issues especially in a position of having to please and in fact having the personality of a people pleaser. Family history can also play a role and I have no doubt that Diana's upbringing as well as that of her siblings did contribute to all this and anxiety and panic disorder actually comes out in the teen, early adult years especially when there are major changes in your life. Many start with going to college a major life change, starting new jobs, marriage and babies. I am sure Diana's bulimia started out as anxiety, panic attacks and yes once that purging starts it actually does make you feel better and I think in Diana's case she purged before being seen in public to ward off the horrible anxiety/ panic attacks.
Quote from: sandy on July 22, 2017, 10:51:56 AM
Diana could and did cope with life in the royal family--she was a success at her work for the royal family.
She didn't cope well with life within the RF. She was ill and bulimic on her honeymoon, and they were worrying about her, and she was seeing a psychiatrist from early on..
She didn't fit in well with the RF at leisure, even if she was good at the public side of the job.
@amabel I do have to agree Diana was ill and bulimic on her honeymoon after all the stress of the wedding and not even having a totally private honeymoon. Charles didn't seem all that interested in his new wife as he said he sat hermit like on the veranda sinking with pure joy into his Vander Post and Jung book while Diana was chatting up the crew. I don't know also how a new bride would cope for two months being isolated at Balmoral all the guests there were friends of the RF and they treated Diana as if she were glass and with all the clothing changes and hoping to dress appropriately and make small talk to people a great deal older than her was not good.
Quote from: amabel on July 22, 2017, 04:36:09 PM
She didn't cope well with life within the RF. She was ill and bulimic on her honeymoon, and they were worrying about her, and she was seeing a psychiatrist from early on..
She didn't fit in well with the RF at leisure, even if she was good at the public side of the job.
Yes, that is right. She was mostly stressed over Camilla and spending the honeymoon with the inlaws.
But that said. Remarkably, despite all the tension she excelled in royal duties. She had some moments of panic when she was about to get out of the car on the first walkabout in Wales. Then when she got out, she just pitched in and worked and the public took to her. On one of the appearances it was raining and she was asked by security if she would like to get back in the car. She said well if they (the crowd) can stand it so can I. With all the inner tensions, she still was able to excel in royal appearances. Once she got out of the honeymoon with the in-laws and she and Charles took went to the Caribbean that Winter, the photographs (they were photographed unawares) showed them happy and relaxed.
She didn't fit In well in private. She didn't like Balmoral. She hated Charles going shooting. She didn't like the formality or the way that Charles deferred ot his mother and grandmother, even ifi it was quite correct to do that, as they were queens and in addition they were oldier ladies. She found the formality of the house party daunting and the queen said that she'd "have to get used to it".
She did do the public part of the job well, but it was stressful to her and I think she would really have preferred to be at home preparing for her baby.
Diana went there every year until the separation. She also knew the boys liked Balmoral. I know she did not like shooting and stayed away from participating or watching.
Quote from: sandy on August 05, 2017, 11:43:09 AM
Diana went there every year until the separation. She also knew the boys liked Balmoral. I know she did not like shooting and stayed away from participating or watching.
She had to go there every year, for goodness sakes. Why do you keep saying this that she went to Polo or went to Balmoral all the time as if it was evidence that she liked these things? She didn't. Once she was separated from C she gave up going because she no longer was expected to put in an appearance. She only showed up at royal things that she still HAD to show up at, once she had split up with Charles. she went to Sandringham for Xmas church but could not even face lunch with the family for the sake of her sons.
we are not talking about whether she complained or not. The fact is that she didn't enjoy most of the things that most of the RF enjoy, and that back then were considered mandatory for any royal wife to join in iwht such as long holidays at Balmoral, country sports, etc.
I've pointed out, that Diana didn't like this stuff, and she only joined in it because it was part of what was expected of her as a royal wife. When she didn't have to go to royal events in the country, she didn't go. This is an indication of how she didn't fit in with the RF in their private life, which was at the time considered very important. The queen is now I think more relaxed about members of the family turning up for Christmas, she allows members of their birth families ot join in if they want to or for couples to spend a few days at Sandringham and other days with the partner's family. Back then however, it was expected that the RF would socialise in a big bunch at Shooting times, or Christmas and they didn't usually spend much time at important festivals with say the wife's own family.
Diana however clearly was not at all happy all through her married life at the trips to Balmoral, weekends spent watching polo or hosting shooting parties. Once she was free of that marital/Royal obligiation she virtiually never went.
She did fit in with RF life, she had two royal sons. She knew they liked outdoor sports so she went with them and Charles. It was not just because she "had to." Of course she'd want to be with her family. When she separated from Charles, it was not mandatory and she opted not to go. (she was not given a warm welcome and Charles was there with his friends, who had provided safe houses for him and Camilla). The first year at Balmoral was no pleasant because she had morning sickness and this was an entirely new experience for her---she literally had her honeymoon with Charles and his family. Even Princess Elizabeth had time away from the family when she married Prince Philip.
By the time the boys were at an age to get seriously into country sports, she was separated from C... and she simply DID NOT like the country sports, the country life etc. As she said to Rosa Moncton, when away on holiday with her, the boys were out "killing things", with their father, and she was away on a sunshine holiday.
Her lack of tolerance for the country life was bound to put her at odds wit the RF. Why do you keep insisting that because she went, it meant she wasn't that far apart from her in laws? She was. She only went to shoots etc because it was obligatory as Charles' wife.. She only went to Balmoral for the same reason.
she didn't like it there not just on the first visit, but ever after. And they didn't "spend their honeymoon" there. They spent several weeks there, after they had had 3 weeks on the Royal Yacht. Most people don't get suc a long honeymoon and for a royal the privileges are mixed in with the social duties.
Quote from: amabel on August 05, 2017, 07:59:21 AM
She didn't fit In well in private. She didn't like Balmoral. She hated Charles going shooting. She didn't like the formality or the way that Charles deferred ot his mother and grandmother, even ifi it was quite correct to do that, as they were queens and in addition they were oldier ladies. She found the formality of the house party daunting and the queen said that she'd "have to get used to it".
She did do the public part of the job well, but it was stressful to her and I think she would really have preferred to be at home preparing for her baby.
I agree
@amabel that Diana didn't care for the country life and its traditional activities:stalking, hunting, fishing etc.. While she faithfully appeared for the annual Balmoral trips, it's easy to see that she didn't care for the lengthy holidays in the Scottish Highlands. She and Charles were staying in their own place on the estate in order to escape some of the rigidity expected at the main house. Diana's preferred holiday spots were the sunny and warm climates of the Caribbean and the Mediterranean where she could indulge in swimming, tennis, and sunbathing.
Unfortunately for Diana the stress in attending these types of events with the extended BRF was exacerbating her bulimia episodes.
Exactly, She didn't have any choice about the spending a lot of their leisure time with the RF, or doing the country sports things. Charles loved shooting hunting and fishing and polo, and horsey stuff. He loved the country. Diana had to put up iwht it as that was expected of her as his wife. Nowadays the queen does not seem to insist on the same everyone turning up at country locations for holidays to enjoy blood sports and country life.. so younger royal wives don't have to endure so much of it if they don't like it. in later years, Diana had to take the boys to Highgrove for weekends, to see their father, but she hated it and spent a lot of her time on the phone to friends or in her room, watching TV and trying to avoid being there.
And I think that she was very good at the public side of her job, but still in the early years she found t very stressful and wished she didn't have to do so much of it... but she was so popular with the public that the RF were keen for her to be seen out doing engagements. I think she would have been happier in the first few years of marriage if she could have been a full time mum, looked after the kids herself with an occasional bit of help from a Nanny and not done the public engagement she had to do. I think she really only began to take on more work and enjoy it when her children were a little older and she began to find the work side of life a welcome escape from an increasingly difficult marriage.
Quote from: sandy on August 06, 2017, 02:05:05 PM
When they were small they did like the outdoors. There was that Christmas card where they were going together on a picnic in the country. They were children and doing the country pursuits. Charles himself quit hunting for a while because one of his girlfriends Zoe Sallis was a vegetarian. Diana did not grouse to Morton about how horrid it was Each Year that she went to Balmoral. The woman could not have those candlelit dinners that newlyweds have because she would have dinner with Charles and all his relatives on their honeymoon. The Balmoral trip was the last stop on the honeymoon before Charles and Diana's work on a tour of Wales. It has been referred to as part of the honeymoon: Broadlands, the Britannia Cruise, then Balmoral.
OT: Pippa had a long honeymoon and she's not a royal, just a relative of one
She said as it was the most stressful time of year as far as she was concerned.
She also said finding out about Charles and Camilla brought on the "rampant bulimia." She did get it under control with help of Dr Lipsedge. I think being with the boys brought some comfort when she went to Bulimia. the one who probably had the most discomfort at Balmoral (arguably) was Sarah Ferguson in 1992, when those headlines came out (with her financial adviser) when she was staying at Balmoral with Prince Andrew . The Queen summoned her and she had to pack up and leave ASAP.
Quote from: dianab on August 10, 2017, 08:26:27 PM
She said as it was the most stressful time of year as far as she was concerned.
Understandably so
@dianab. I'm glad for Diana that she finally was receptive to the fact that she required psychiatric care to help her with her eating disorder.
Quote from: TLLK on August 10, 2017, 10:19:52 PM
Understandably so @dianab. I'm glad for Diana that she finally was receptive to the fact that she required psychiatric care to help her with her eating disorder.
Me too, but im very upset that they didnt use him straight away, especially with the whole Sarah situation, and that Charles was aware of it. But they thought the palace and their docs knew best, shades of downton abbey with the father wanting to use the "proper" doctor.
Wasted a lot of precious time...which we now know was at a premium for her.
I understand what you are saying
@Duch_Luver_4ever but I do believe that Diana was in denial about her eating disorder for years and treatment with Lipsedge or anyone else wasn't going to be effective until she was ready to accept it. (Sadly it is common for those affected by this form of mental illness to deny that there is a problem and to refuse treatment.) From what I have read one of her friends more or less threatened to expose her problems to the press unless she agreed to seek help. Interventions aren't pleasant for all involved but sometimes they are necessary to save someone's life.
Plus the aristocrats have a very bad history of dealing with mental illness. They tend to want to lock them up until they die. It was in Diana's interest never to be diagnosed as having a mental illness so she had to put up appearances and live in denial for as long as possible.
Diana did not get the right help for her bulimia nervosa. Bulimics are not "hidden away" even during Diana's time. She was not a Zelda Fitzgerald in and out of institutions. She got the bulimia under control with the right doctor. Her sister Sarah got her anorexia under control. Diana's eating disorder never was at the level of Karen Carpenter's. Diana had morning sickness. Did the royals think that made her "mentally ill" just because the women in the family never experienced it?
Double post auto-merged: August 11, 2017, 12:14:02 PM
Quote from: TLLK on August 11, 2017, 11:28:03 AM
I understand what you are saying @Duch_Luver_4ever but I do believe that Diana was in denial about her eating disorder for years and treatment with Lipsedge or anyone else wasn't going to be effective until she was ready to accept it. (Sadly it is common for those affected by this form of mental illness to deny that there is a problem and to refuse treatment.) From what I have read one of her friends more or less threatened to expose her problems to the press unless she agreed to seek help. Interventions aren't pleasant for all involved but sometimes they are necessary to save someone's life.
Diana had the wrong sort of help early on. Why Sarah did not phone her and tell her to see Dr. Lipsedge is beyond me. Sarah got the right help;. Diana was just fed valium which accomplished nothing. Diana did not refuse treatment early on, but had the wrong kind of "help" and apparently the wrong doctors. Charles even sent Van Der Post to her which it seems was pretty useless.
QuoteDiana had morning sickness. Did the royals think that made her "mentally ill" just because the women in the family never experienced it?
While both can involve vomiting they're two entirely different things. Bulimia is a form of mental illness and morning sickness is a well-known side effect often occurring during the first trimester in a pregnancy. While QEII and some of her family members might not have been afflicted by it, most people are aware that other women can experience it and wouldn't consider it to be a form of mental illness. I'm not sure why you are comparing the two.
Yes I agree with TLLK. Morning sickness is entirely different from bulimia. I doubt anyone would classify morning sickness as a mental illness but bulimia definitely is.
Quote from: TLLK on August 11, 2017, 12:22:07 PM
While both can involve vomiting they're two entirely different things. Bulimia is a form of mental illness and morning sickness is a well-known side effect often occurring during the first trimester in a pregnancy. While QEII and some of her family members might not have been afflicted by it, most people are aware that other women can experience it and wouldn't consider it to be a form of mental illness. I'm not sure why you are comparing the two.
She had a double whammy so to speak. She had a difficult pregnancy with William and felt really sick from it plus the bulimia. I am comparing the two because the royal ladies reportedly did not understand why she felt sick from the pregnancy since none of them had morning sickness. So they did not "understand" plus the hormonal reactions to pregnancy did not help matters. The bulimia and the morning sickness together were horrendous for her and so she said to Morton. She said she felt "sick as a parrot. I'm comparing the two because she really had a bad time with both combined. That first time at Balmoral must have been awful for her. It was a combination of this that most likely caused her not to want to come down to formal dinners being sick to her stomach and all that.
I am not understanding why the royals would feel they did not understand it because Diana's sister Sarah had anorexia another eating disorder. On Charles' part he should have had some understanding of it since supposedly he helped Sarah through it.
Can you have bulimia while being pregnant?
Quote
since none of them had morning sickness
All pregnant women have morning sickness. It's because of the change in chemicals in the blood. So high HCG levels cause MS and its healthy as long as it's not excessive. (note: I've never been pregerss so correct me if I'm wrong). I think you're referring to post natal depression that is quite rare and most royal women didn't understand that because most women wouldn't naturally understand that as it's not that common.
No she said she had bad morning sickness with William and the bulimia too. It's in the Morton book. The bulimia apparently came first because she got the treatment and the doctors gave her valium. When she found out she was pregnant, she had to stop taking the valium. Then the morning sickness came. She had indicated the other royal ladies did not have the morning sickness (unless she meant severe morning sickness) and did not understand what was wrong. She had the post natal depression and bulimia also. She looked her worst with her looking unhealthily thin a few months after William was born. She indicated the pregnancy was easier when she was expecting Harry.
Nonsense,whatever Diana may have said, the RF know about morning sickness and were not comparing it with bulimia.
Can you have bulimia while being pregnant?
All pregnant women have morning sickness. It's because of the change in chemicals in the blood. So high HCG levels cause MS and its healthy as long as it's not excessive. (note: I've never been pregerss so correct me if I'm wrong). I think you're referring to post natal depression that is quite rare and most royal women didn't understand that because most women wouldn't naturally understand that as it's not that common.
[/quote] Yes you can still have an eating disorder: anorexia, bulimia, binge eating while pregnant which can harm mother and the developing fetus. Pregnancy and Eating Disorders | National Eating Disorders Association (https://www.nationaleatingdisorders.org/pregnancy-and-eating-disorders)
As for all pregnant women having morning sickness I'd have to say that isn't the case. Yes there are elevated HCG levels, but not every pregnant woman experiences nausea and/or vomiting which are the typical symptoms related to the condition. And trust me it is not just limited to just the morning and for some unlucky mothers can last the entire pregnancy. :( One thing can surprise first time mothers is the fatigue that occurs in the first trimester.
Post natal hormone fluctuations can affect many mothers and continue for months after the baby's birth. Some moms are a little weepy aka "baby blues," others can have post-natal depression like I had after my second child was born and the most severe form is post-natal psychosis.Postnatal Depression (http://www.rcpsych.ac.uk/healthadvice/problemsdisorders/postnataldepression.aspx)
Of course you can have bulimia, while pregnant. Its a mental disorder caused by - well no one really knows at present.
Diana was under serious stress, it is possible that as well as the nausea that often comes with pregnancy, she was deliberately making herself sick. And while not all pregnant women have it, I can't imagine that most women don't know about morning sickness and how It can affect women in the early months of pregnancy.. and the Royal women are no different. They almost certainly would not have known about bulimia, but I'm sure they knew about both morning sickness and post natal depression.
Quote from: amabel on August 11, 2017, 08:07:23 PM
Nonsense,whatever Diana may have said, the RF know about morning sickness and were not comparing it with bulimia.
She said they did not understand. I'm just referring to the Morton book and I am only the messenger. I did not say they were comparing it with bulimia. Just that she was really sick from the pregnancy and bulimia combined. She said she could not stand up without feeling nauseous.
So what exactly did they not understand? She had to cancel engagemetns because of her sickness, so presumably they understood enough to realise that she was too queasy to work...
Quote from: sandy on August 11, 2017, 08:22:13 PM
She said they did not understand. I'm just referring to the Morton book and I am only the messenger. I did not say they were comparing it with bulimia. Just that she was really sick from the pregnancy and bulimia combined. She said she could not stand up without feeling nauseous.
No you didn't mention bulimia but you implied that the royals would think that she was "mentally ill" because she had morning sickness.
Diana had morning sickness. Did the royals think that made her "mentally ill" just because the women in the family never experienced it?Double post auto-merged: August 11, 2017, 06:14:02 PM
I'm sure that most of them likely knew someone including women who were past members of the BRF who had experienced morning sickness and understood that this was simply a symptom of early pregnancy and not a form of mental illness. While QEII, QEQM, Anne or Margaret might not have experienced it, there were other women in the family: Katherine, Brigitte, Marie Christine etc.. who might have suffered from it.
Morning sickness is an entirely different condition from Bulimia but they can occur simultaneously. Of course morning sickness typically ends after some time but bulimia is much harder to treat and can be one of the most elusive mental illnesses out there. Likewise postnatal depression should not be confused with bulimia or morning sickness although all three can occur in the same person.
It is also not true to say that the royal family was unsympathetic to Diana's difficulties in the new role. Once the queen actually asked the press to back off (very ironic considering what happened later with all the insider scoops that were being provided about the royal family).
The problem for the royal family was the personality changes (not morning sicknesses)...glaring at guests and refusing to speak to anyone. Sitting in the room crying for hours. Incredible mood swings. It was very confusing for them because they had always been taught to hide emotions and get on with the job. They also could not quite reconcile the jolly fun girl that was there before the engagement to the moody woman after the wedding.
All of this just proves that Diana was an extremely unstable individual.
Of course they are different. Diana problaby had all three, bulimia, morning sickness in her pregnancy and post natal depression after William was born, and I think she was back to her bulimia soon after she had had him.. because I think she was off work for a while and had lost weight badly.
I rather think that the mental issues that Diana was dealing with were much more complex than a case of morning sickness. Kate has been through morning sickness but is in no way comparable to what Diana was going through. It is hard for example to imagine Kate throwing herself down the stairs whilst pregnant or pushing someone down the stairs because they were not paying enough attention to her. Those are signs of someone that is unwell beyond any morning sickness.
I also challenge the notion that Diana's problems started with Charles. They did not. The school teachers describe a girl who was very kind and helpful but also fond of lying incessantly. She herself describes how she and Charles Spencer were "messed up". The desire for attention, the clinginess and neediness were constant themes in her life as well as the fear of being left behind. These were themes that started before the marriage and continued well after the marriage.
Quite right
@TLLK I recall Whittaker mentioning she refused treatment saying she was alright, and then it took Carolyn Bartholomew's ultimatum to make her seek treatment, so Diana was likely to evade treatment until she was "ready" for it. Also I think
@royalanthropologist is onto something about the dangers of being diagnosed with a mental illness, even in the 80s, wasnt that long ago some of the RF's relatives were shut away, then throw in the desired remarriage by Charles and she would have wanted to weigh those options carefully.
Yes the RF trotted out their docs and gave her pills, she had to refuse the morning sickness pills as she was worried about William being affected, and her getting blamed for it. I think theres an element of both sides being right about the morning sickness. The RF had to know about it given how many women get it, but I think, given their way of being, when Diana said they didnt understand about it, probably meant they just felt she was whinging about it, and should buck up. They seem very much a "walk it off and keep a stiff upper lip" kind of family, not the understanding, supportive one Diana needed at that time.
While Sarah got the proper treatment, she wasnt a member of the RF, and thus it was "ok"" for her to, but I think given the previous paragraph, they wernt big on ppl needing help.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on August 11, 2017, 08:33:40 PM
Morning sickness is an entirely different condition from Bulimia but they can occur simultaneously. Of course morning sickness typically ends after some time but bulimia is much harder to treat and can be one of the most elusive mental illnesses out there. Likewise postnatal depression should not be confused with bulimia or morning sickness although all three can occur in the same person.
It is also not true to say that the royal family was unsympathetic to Diana's difficulties in the new role. Once the queen actually asked the press to back off (very ironic considering what happened later with all the insider scoops that were being provided about the royal family).
The problem for the royal family was the personality changes (not morning sicknesses)...glaring at guests and refusing to speak to anyone. Sitting in the room crying for hours. Incredible mood swings. It was very confusing for them because they had always been taught to hide emotions and get on with the job. They also could not quite reconcile the jolly fun girl that was there before the engagement to the moody woman after the wedding.
She likely did have all three, agreed. The queen did ask after the sweets shop snap, and she did protest the manner of the bahamas pics, also the head of The Sun was brought before parliament about a decade later over press intrusion, but it would be very interesting to have heard HOW she asked. Theres asking, and then theres "I am your Queen, you wont have a problem doing this to avoid the full weight of the realm on you, wont you?"
This idea of her helplessly hand wringing "oh please wont you leave Diana alone?" "no, you wont, oh dear, i do wish youd change your mind" seems silly to me, had she wanted it done, it would get done.
The not talking to guests was during the honeymoon due to the guests being all so much older than her and all Charles friends, a fact which was remarked to the queen and to which she said "she'll just have to buck up" The crying and mood swings were partly due to the electrolyte imbalances caused by throwing up so much of ones food, which was caused by the stress of finding all of Charles "souvenirs" of Camilla.
The comment about charles thinking it would be perfectly fine and fun for Diana to watch him do paperwork in his office when he first met her, is very telling, as he seemed to plan his whole honeymoon around that very premise. Its no wonder a girl barely 20 would not be overjoyed to have her honeymoon play out the way it did. He didnt bother to understand the other person, also shown by his remark about her popularity...why do they want to see her, all she did was say yes to me.
The jolly fun girl before the engagement was so because she thought she was marrying someone she loved, and anyone else in his life would not be a romantic rival.
When Carolyn Bartholomew pushed Diana to get help, Diana replied 'i cannot'... probably charles didnt want she opening up about him and camilla with a doctor. i recall years ago reading (in some book) Charles said to diana never talk about their troubles to anyone.
Quote from: Trudie on August 11, 2017, 09:59:02 PM
Hardly it just shows you how differently she was treated after the ring was on her finger. Diana herself said after the wedding while at Balmoral she was now treated as if she were glass. I would love to see how you would have reacted to spending two months isolated with your new in laws and not alone with your new husband.
She would've been better off had she never married Charlie.
Quote from: Trudie on August 11, 2017, 09:59:02 PM
Hardly it just shows you how differently she was treated after the ring was on her finger. Diana herself said after the wedding while at Balmoral she was now treated as if she were glass. I would love to see how you would have reacted to spending two months isolated with your new in laws and not alone with your new husband.
She was't "isolated". She had had 3 weeks with Charles on Brittiania and then more weeks on holiday in Scotland. Most people would be delighted with that much time off work. She wasn't "isolated iwht her in laws". She was saying at a house on the estate with Charles but she was expected, like any royal wife at the time, to spend time with her inlaws on their long trip to Balmoral. It was a house party.
and I don't know how being "treated as if you were glass" was some kind of cruel treatement. It would imply to me that they treated her very well.
Quote from: amabel on August 12, 2017, 07:37:27 AM
She was't "isolated". She had had 3 weeks with Charles on Brittiania and then more weeks on holiday in Scotland. Most people would be delighted with that much time off work. She wasn't "isolated iwht her in laws". She was saying at a house on the estate with Charles but she was expected, like any royal wife at the time, to spend time with her inlaws on their long trip to Balmoral. It was a house party.
and I don't know how being "treated as if you were glass" was some kind of cruel treatement. It would imply to me that they treated her very well.
I don't know about you amabel but to me that was a pretty isolating experience. The yacht fine though there was no privacy even at dinner they had to entertain the top crew and Charles sunk into his books on the veranda if he wasn't calling Camilla, flaunting the cufflinks Camilla gave him or having her picture fall out of his diary. As for Balmoral while I am sure it is beautiful you can't exactly walk into town to explore and really sitting in the castle day after day while your new husband is out doing his solitary pursuits and having to go to dinner everynight with the inlaws I would say that is pretty isolating especially if you are only 20 and the other guests are much older than you.
Let us just say: if I was planning my dream honeymoon, it would not include Vanderpost, cufflinks from the mistress and state banquets. The honeymoon is for different things entirely. This one seems to have been something akin to a working holiday.
BTW, you can be in a room full of people and be the loneliest person in the world. Just like you can be very popular and still be incredibly lonely. Diana went through that. If you are socializing with people who you know are laughing behind your back and participating in the downfall of your marriage; it can be a very frustrating experience. Every smile or greeting seems like a sly dig at your situation.
My question to Charles if I had a chance to interview him would be this: why go to all the trouble to propose and marry someone when you clearly find them an irritant? Seems like a very illogical way of behaving.
Quote from: Trudie on August 12, 2017, 04:21:22 PM
I you can't exactly walk into town to explore and really sitting in the castle day after day while your new husband is out doing his solitary pursuits and having to go to dinner everynight with the inlaws I would say that is pretty isolating especially if you are only 20 and the other guests are much older than you.
well that's normal life for a royal wife at the time. I don't believe that Chrles was "calling Camilla" or letting his photos fall out. It seems ridiculous to believe that if he took pains to conceal the realtationhip and told Di that Camilla was "just a friend" as people here keep insisting.. that he'd be openly contacting her and letting it be clear to Diana that there was something special with Camilla.
And the honeymoon may not have been what many people would choose, but it was the normal practice at the time to have a few weeks on something like Brittania, and of course that means that they were going to have to socialise with the officers, out of politeness, and to spend time at Balmoral later. Diana should have expected that. they had 7 or 8 weeks honeymoon for goodness sake. Most people would find that a great privilege an would expect that there had to be some payback for having such a lot of leisure time and luxury.
Diana could have gone out with Charles, when they were at Balmoral, but she did not want to. And she could not entertain herself while he was out..
The RF or at least the queen were not too happy with her behaviour, at Balmoral stage of the honeymoon because they expected that as a couriter's daughter, she would have known that she had social obligaitons while staying there.. and Diana clearly didn't know or didn't want to know.
Stephen Barry did say that Charles called Camilla several times during the honeymoon (and he was there). Diana already expressed concern over the FG bracelet so unless Charles was totally clueless he would have known his wearing the C and C cufflinks and her seeing the photos would be upsetting. I don't see it as much of a honeymoon. At least Kate and William got a real honeymoon.
It was not a matter of wanting to. Diana did take long walks with Charles at Balmoral. But as she told Morton she could not stand up without feeling queasy when she was pregnant with William. Why would she accompany CHarles or why would he expect her to if she felt sick?
If Diana did not have the morning sickness maybe she would have been more cooperative and the royals would not have been "disappointed." If they were "disappointed" in her because she felt sick they are a very cold bunch.
I wouldnt' take what S Barry says too seriously. He was known to make claims and then say they weren't true.
I don't know of Dianas' "being so sick she couldn't stand up" when she was on honeymoon, she was only JUST pregnant, so I find it hard to believe she could be so ill at such an early stage.
She spent a whole day with one of C's staff, while Charles was out shooting, and there was no indication from his narration of being with her, that she was ill or practically unable to stand with morning sickness.. just that she was very bored and unhappy. if she was so unwell, then surely the simplest thing would have been for her to go to bed and rest rather than wanting company.
and the RF weren't disappointed with her because she was sick.. as you know. They were disappointed - or at least the queen expressed annoyance.. because Diana didn't want to join in the socialising. She said "there she is glowering and the only time she brightens up is when Charles speaks to her" and when an aide responded that perhaps Diana wasnt' feeling very lively or chatty because so many of the guests were older than her, the queen said that "Diana would have to get used to it".
Well he did say it. I believe him. Charles was contacting and seeing Camilla and they were known to meet at the hunts to together and house parties. Well she was ill at the early stage, why would she fake morning sickness or pretend to feel sick? People like to feel good and healthy. She had to go to the formal dinners with the royals or she would be seen as "rude." The Queen should have been more understanding with the young woman who just joined the family. I think it cold blooded for a mother in law to be so not understanding or empathizing with her new daughter in law. It does make the Queen look bad not Diana, IMO. Diana was just finding her way. I think she should have had alone time with her husband, who would help explain things to her about expectations that his mother had and so on. Diana did feel sick on the honeymoon, why would she lie about it?
I am pretty sure if Diana had asked to be excused on account of morning sickness, they would have obliged. What irritated them was glaring at guests and then only talking to Charles. That is inappropriate behavior for a house guest. Nobody was complaining that Diana had morning sickness, that was just Diana's take on it to mask the fact that they were complaining about other aspects of the changes in her personality.
Diana was cataloging all sorts of complaints about virtually everybody she was meeting. Either they were ignoring her or coming on too strongly. Either they were dismissive of her or treating her as if she was fragile. She was not happy with Charles' friends because they had too much influence on him and treated him with deference. Diana just not set up for the court of either the queen or Charles and it showed in virtually everything she did. She could not stomach the Edwardian life and rebelled. They just ignored her, thinking she was a silly odd girl.
I also blame Charles for arranging a honeymoon that involved relatives. That is just asking for trouble. The queen is a monarch with all the attendant dignities. She is not some ordinary mother in law. So you can anticipate that a young girl of 20 would be intimidated by "the presence".
Underneath it all Diana was fighting internal battles. She had realized that Charles was deeply, deeply emotionally attached to Camilla. In her youthful desperation, she tried to keep his attention through stunts and manipulation so that he could get away from Camilla. That just irritated Charles more. Someone once wrote that it was like torturing bambi. It would have been far better not to have proposed to a girl that had a school-girl type of crash on a man who was elsewhere attached.
Quote from: sandy on August 13, 2017, 05:52:00 PM
I don't recall Diana or anybody saying she glared at people at Balmoral nor displayed hostility towards them. She did say she had rows with Charles over Camilla. I she probably was uncomfortable though with the situation. Some sources say that the royals did not "understand" why Diana felt sick and were of the 'let's get on with it' mentality.
Right the queen is a big monster who would force a sick pregnant girl to wrok when she wasn't abel to.
Quote from: royalanthropologist on August 11, 2017, 11:39:45 AM
Plus the aristocrats have a very bad history of dealing with mental illness. They tend to want to lock them up until they die. It was in Diana's interest never to be diagnosed as having a mental illness so she had to put up appearances and live in denial for as long as possible.
I believe that in the late 70's and early 80's that many people from all levels of society in the western world were still uncomfortable with acknowledging and discussing any form of mental illness. Unfortunately the stigma exists today with some being reluctant to accept that even mild conditions ie: all forms of depression, anxiety and hyperactivity along with more severe ones ie: eating disorders are in fact mental illnesses and have been acknowledged as such for decades.
I'm hopeful that in time more members of the public will be able to accept the idea that there is no shame in acknowledging a diagnosis and accepting assistance from qualified mental health care professionals.
Eating Disorders are Serious Mental Illnesses (https://www.aedweb.org/index.php/23-get-involved/position-statements/89-aed-statement-on-body-shaming-and-weight-prejudice-in-public-endeavors-to-reduce-obesity-3)
Quote"Recent research on eating disorders supports the proposition that these are serious mental disorders with significant morbidity and mortality," says Dr. Tom Insel, director of the National Institute of Mental Health. "Based on genetic and neuroimaging studies, eating disorders appear to have a biological basis, analogous to what is observed in other serious mental disorders such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and addictive diseases. All of these illnesses, including eating disorders, need to be addressed as biomedical as well as behavioral problems if we are to help people recover."
In summary, eating disorders are biologically-based, serious mental illnesses because:
• There is medical and scientific evidence that anorexia nervosa and bulimia nervosa are as heritable as other psychiatric conditions (e.g. schizophrenia, bipolar disorder and depression) that are considered biologically based.
• The behaviors of restricting food intake, bingeing and purging have been shown to alter brain structure, metabolism and neurochemistry in ways that make it difficult for individuals to discontinue the behaviors.
• Eating disorders are associated with impairment in emotional and cognitive functioning that greatly limits life activities.
• Eating disorders are life-threatening illnesses and are associated with numerous medical complications. Mortality rates for anorexia nervosa are the highest of any psychiatric disorder.
@sandy-Please try to realize that mental health care professionals do not share your view that these patients including Diana are "not seriously ill."
These are life threatening mental illnesses at any stage. Yes she was functioning to some level but make no mistake that she was very ill. Untreated by qualified professionals they can result in chronic health related issues or death.Diana's friend and former flatmate Carolyn Bartholomew certainly understood this because she had to resort to telling Diana that she'd shared her condition with the press if she didn't seek professional help.
Now I do understand your objection to those authors who have practiced arm chair psychiatry and labeled Diana with BPD. The only people qualified to render that diagnosis are psychiatrists who would have treated her and are bound by privacy laws to not revel that information without patient consent.
Bulimia is life threatening. Diana did not reach the level of Karen Carpenter whose eating disorder caused her death. DIana never was at the point of being institutionalized. The treatment she needed was for a doctor to get to the root of the problem, not be fed valium
I am wondering if Sarah Spencer ever had a discussion with Diana about her own eating disorder. And was Carolyn finally the one who referred Diana to Dr. Lipsedge or did Sarah finally recommend Lipsedge?
Diana did not have BPD. I think she would have admitted having it. What Junor did was vicious, she has no "inside information." She cribbed the notes of Dimbleby who used a College Text to "diagnose Diana" as a way to "help Charles. He did not use the notes in his book because he would have been sued. Junor appropriated the notes for the book Charles Victim or Villain.
In a way, Junor used the "diagnosis" as a way to "defend" Charles and Camilla's actions. In a way, Junor put a stigma on people having BPD. I find what she did offensive.
QuoteBulimia is life threatening. Diana did not reach the level of Karen Carpenter whose eating disorder caused her death
Thank you for acknowledging that Bulimia is a serious and possibly life threatening form of mental illness.
Karen Carpenter's struggles with anorexia nervosa and her death were a turning point in the public's acceptance that this form of mental illness should be discussed.
http://time.com/3685894/karen-carpenter-anorexia-death/
I did not say it was not serious. I said that Diana was not at the point of being institutionalized. Thankfully she got the right physician to help her. But what happened to communication in the Spencer family? Would not Sarah and Diana have compared notes. Did Sarah not care? Strange.
QuoteShe was not "severely" ill.
@sandy-This is what you stated. Diana had an eating disorder. All eating disorders are considered by mental health professionals to be a form of a serious and severe mental illness. I have not seen Diana's medical records (nor do I expect to see them) so none of know if she was ever hospitalized even briefly for treatment. I will continue toacknowledge what psychiatrist state about about bulimia and other eating disorders.
QuoteWhat is Bulimia?
Bulimia Nervosa is a psychological and severe life-threatening eating disorder described by the ingestion of an abnormally large amount of food in short time period, followed by an attempt to avoid gaining weight by purging what was consumed.
https://www.eatingdisorderhope.com/information/bulimia
Quote from: sandy on August 15, 2017, 11:56:15 AM
Diana said it. She was pregnant. Diana herself told Morton she had to leave the dinner table because of nausea. Only Diana knew how she felt so how could the others "report" on it? I doubt the Queen would come out and talk about her daughter in law's morning sickness or anyone else there. Kate was in the early stages when she was hospitalized with the severe morning sickness. Charles never commented on Diana's not going out hunting. In fact, in the documentary about Diana, the news reports at the time of the engagement said it was known she did not hunt or ride. Everybody knew it. It should not have been a surprise to Charles and his family. Kate was able to do the royal duties after the earliest stages of the pregnancy. So if she was sick in the earliest stages, why would not Diana have been? Back then the news reports did not talk about Diana's morning sickness, times have changed, Kate's condition was reported to the media, including the symptoms and everything.
well you've impled that the RF were unkind and heartless in not understainding that Diana was sick during her pregnancy. But you are now saying she didn't talk about it so how could they know? ad as I have pointed out, she DID cancel engagemetnts because of pregnancy sickness so she was not being pushed to work when she was not well enough. I don't believe that the RF were "unkind" to Diana about her pregnancy problems or that they pressed her to work when she wasn't abel. If she had to leave the table becuase of sickness, I'm sure they did not criticise her.
and just because Kate had HG (not normal morning sickness) doesn't mean that Diana necessarily had morning sickness. Women are diferent and not all of them have nausea.
As for Charles, he didn't expect Diana to HUNT, but she had watched him shooting and fishing during their courtship so he presumably hoped and expected that she would continue to enjoy these sports with him after marriage.. but Diana didn't want to go. When she stayed home with Michael Colborne, it was not, as far as I know because she felt sick.. it was because she didn't want to go out with the guns with Charles, but didn't want to stay behind alone.
QuoteI said They (other than Diana) did not talk about it
Charles did mention that Diana was not feeling well not long after her pregnancy was announced. He had to explain her absence at an engagement.
IMO it wasn't the business of anyone other than the couple to discuss when out in public. :shrug:
She had to contend with the same symptoms while pregnant with Harry.
A Royal Mom Complains of Morning Sickness, but a Top Doctor Explains It's a Healthy Sign (http://people.com/archive/a-royal-mom-complains-of-morning-sickness-but-a-top-doctor-explains-its-a-healthy-sign-vol-21-no-15/)
Right before the official announcement of the pregnancy, Diana fell asleep during a concert.
@sandy-The fatigue that can be experienced in that first trimester is incredible. Not surprised that she dozed off.
Quote from: sandy on August 16, 2017, 10:53:44 AM
I said They (other than Diana) did not talk about it. Diana talked about it via Morton. You had said nobody else confirmed she had bulimia. I said that the Queen and RF would no do that and talk publicly about it. I said I believed Diana's story of her feeling sick. YOu were saying nobody else confirmed she was sick. I said they would not have (at the time). I doubt Diana lied about her being sick.
[/quote
Well I find it hard to believe that M Colborne might not have said that he had been asked to stay in and look after Diana because she was feeling ill.. but he didn't say that. he said that they spnet hours together with Diana unhappy and cross, if she had been ill, I doubt if Charles would have proposed that one of his male aides stay and keep her company.
Diana drugged by royal physicians worried about illnesses | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4915710/Diana-drugged-royal-physicians-worried-illnesses.html)
I dont know if it was the appalling state of psychotherapy at the time, or the good old boys of the medical community looking after their own, or the state of royal connections being valued over medical knowledge, or the desire to bow and scrape to the royals that caused that horrible state of affairs.
Its interesting to consider alongside the Diana tapes in the Nat Geo doc where she mentions it in greater detail than in the US version, and Harry's statement about the older generations (ie the generation these doctors were) and their maladjusted approach to mental health.
Thank goodness one of that generation saw things as they were, just a young girl overwhelmed by massive life changes (and unknown to the doctor, a marriage that was a lie, I wonder if Diana substituted sea monster for discretion with the doctors as the dream subject, instead of Camilla as she said she dreamt of her constantly ), not some genetic aberration that would darken the family line for eons to come, what utter nonsense!! But my take is that is the start of the royal and friends campaign against her as being "mad".
By her own admission, Diana was behaving in very alarming ways at that point in her marriage. Bulimia brings about certain symptoms which can be alarming to someone that does not know them. A husband who has married out of duty is also unlikely to have the patience that is required to give the person the right sort of comfort and support.
All Charles saw was a transformed girl who was "difficult". Madness is a very ancient label for women who are unhappy in their marriages. Charles consulted the doctors and they effectively they told him she was mad. He sought a second opinion and they said she was emotional. He chose to ignore the reasons behind her negative emotions (CPB etc.) and just left.
She eventually decided to treat herself and made significant strides to recover. Unfortunately, the damage to the relationship was so severe that the marriage could not survive even when Diana had recovered from depression. I also think that part of it was post natal depression which happens to the best of us but apparently Windsor women do not have it.
I think the whole thing helps Diana's enormously, and I am very upset over the trouble the misdiagnosis caused her, both in the way the RF treated her and the delay in treatment. We knew the other docs were waddling in on duck feet with little more than valium to offer, but didnt know they had that kind of crazy (pardon the pun) diagnosis.
After the incident with the cereal before the wedding to one of her sisters laughing(I believe it was Jane, I dont want to think about Sarah seeing her do that and not get her to seek help) seeing her eat and be sick right before the wedding, to the whole "is that going to reappear later" the idea that food was part of the problem, and the idea of using Dr. Lipsidge right away should have been paramount.
From the get go Diana knew what she needed and as we look back with what we know now, we can see that she knew more than that parade of quacks, im glad Dr. McGlashan was able to get rid of the other docs and at least start some therapy. It would have been nice for Diana to continue, but I dont think she was either ready, or it was the right fit.
QuoteI dont know if it was the appalling state of psychotherapy at the time,
TBH Diana would have been offered the best possible care that would have been available in the early 1980's even if it seems strange and outdated to us today. Also consider that very few people were comfortable discussing mental health issues then and we know that William and Harry have extended family members who have been diagnosed and treated for mental illness (depression, schizophrenia etc...) over the centuries/decades. We're still dealing with terrible stigmas towards these conditions that often come with a genetic tendency. I'm not surprised that they've chosen to raise awareness about mental illness and to try and battle the stigmas attached to them. I believe that at times we forget how far this branch of medicine has progressed over the decades. IMHO we do need to dial back our expectations from 2017 to the early 1980's when we read this material Also, I believe that this needs to be restated again,
that treatment is less likely to be successful if a patient is not ready to admit there is a problem. In the early 1980's iwe know that Diana was not ready to admit that she had an issue with anxiety, depression or an eating disorder. Also we should recall that Sarah's anorexia nervosa while an eating disorder was entirely a different beast from Diana's bulimia. To ask that lay people should have recognized that the two women required treatment from the same psychiatrist is a stretch IMO. Another hindsight is 20/20 moment is present in this case.
I'm glad that Diana eventually recognized that she needed care from a mental healthcare specialist because it quite likely saved her from serious and lasting health issues. I hope that others will recognize it and seek treatment too.
@sandy-Yes I am sorry that these notes have ever seen the light of day. :( The doctors who corresponding with each other have passed on so whomever had possession of their records and correspondence has found a lucrative market. <_<
QuoteIm just left with the thought that with all the older, wiser heads around, somebody should have been more helpful, as while when she made the tapes she described she knew what she needed, she did have a hard time with describing what she needed, by her own admission. She also felt a lot of pressure to do her role, so I think that also played into her early unwillingness to seek help.
:goodpost:@Duch_Luv-Yes Diana was under enormous pressure from the palace, the public, the press and herself. IMO she truly wanted to prove that she was up to the task. Also I see there are parallels to Diana and CP Victoria both being diagnosed with eating disorders. Two young adult women adjusting to their new roles and understandably struggling at times. Another thing that they shared was that they both struggled academically during their school years. Victoria having been diagnosed with a learning disability when she was younger and I suspect that Diana also had one. I believe each was already dealing with some self esteem issues so each would want to try and compensate for this IMHO.
People who suffer from eating disorders are experts at hiding their symptoms. They have to be because if discovered, someone is going to do their best to stop the behaviors that control their food intake. They are desperate to have control over something in their lives and their food is one of the easier ones. As the weight was coming off, both were receiving compliments on their figures and new sophisticated looks. Both were still undergoing physical changes due to pregnancy/delivery/postpartum period-Diana and final growth spurt-Victoria. Wear some looser clothing and likely people are not going to notice the change over time. Diana and Victoria were able to keep these behaviors secret for a long time and they could count on their families' busy schedules and their own assurances to people that they were "fine."
In all honesty I find it fruitless to try and assign blame to anyone (Windsors, Spencers, Bernadottes...) for Diana and Victoria suffering from their respective eating disorders. I'd rather focus on how to prevent them from occurring to anyone else and to see that those who are diagnosed with them to receive treatment.
I will respond to this question:
"Knowing Diana was misdiagnosed and she wasn't the unstable mess the Courtiers, His friends and family all publicly said she was why didn't he refute it as untrue?"
The very same reason that her brother and sons are not refuting it. They are no longer interested in the drama and would rather make no comment at all. The latest article is nothing to do with Charles. The complaints are better directed at the author/publisher rather than trying to rope Charles into the mix. I also happen to know that any time a member of the BRF denies something, some nutters immediately seize it as a conspiracy theory. "He was leaned on, it is all PR" etc. Better to let sleeping dogs lie.
Diana was not popular in either the BRF or Charles' circle of friends. It is not surprising that those people do not have a good word to say about her. I wonder why you find this surprising? Likewise Diana's friends and accomplices do not have a good word to say about Charles. Anthony Holden is a case in point. There was never a single point in Diana's life when she ever defended Charles public on anything. If anything, she reveled in all his mishaps. Why do you think he would want to defend her after he divorced her? BTW that line about "mother to his children" does not wash with me. He was the father to her children but she had no problem embarrassing him in the media and conniving with his enemies. Why should he then become her keeper and protector?
As for distance from the children, Ken Wharfe and others have reported that at one point Diana was trying to use the children as a weapon against Charles. She put it out that he was not a good parent or that he was absent. Apparently the decision to formalize the separation was precisely because Diana in one of her revenge modes cancelled an agreed time with the kids. Charles so furious that he immediately demanded a formal separation to ensure that Diana would no longer use the children as a weapon.
Of course when she died, he was their sole parent and he undertook that role well. Those who imagine W&H enjoy having their father slandered and insulted in the media might be in for a big shock. Those children were witnesses at their father's second wedding and actually invited Camilla to be a witness at William's wedding. The imagined family tension does not exist. They have an arrangement that works for them. It is just outsiders that want drama and revenge.
Princess Diana's paranoia 'fueled' after Martin Bashir tell-all (https://www.geo.tv/latest/351801-princess-dianas-paranoia-fueled-after-martin-bashir-tell-all)
QuoteA ?very close? friend of the late Princess Diana unearthed what the effects of the Martin Bashir BBC interview had on her.
Royal Rota podcast hosts Lizzie Robinson and Chris Ship spoke about how the late Princess of Wales? paranoia was fueled following the famous 1995 interview.
Lizzie said: "I had a chat with one of Diana's very close friends, Dr James Colthurst. Dr Colthurst was the friend that did the interviews with her for the Andrew Morton book.
"So he used to go, ask the questions, record them and then take the recordings over to Andrew Morton to write up.
"He was talking to me about the things that Diana was saying."
She continued: "She'd talked openly about how she felt for that book but her character hadn't changed.
"She was still the same person that he recognised.
"But during that period where she met Bashir, had done the interview and was sort of around him, he said that the change in her was so noticeable to him and their friends.
"There was truth in what she said, of course, it was just the way the context around that interview."
The late princess's brother Earl Spencer too noticed a change in his sister's demeanor.
Chris added: "Earl Spencer said it as well, he noticed a change in his sister.
"He noticed she was becoming much more paranoid, much more looking over her shoulder, worrying about things, thinking that everyone was against her, convinced that the system, the state was against her.
"She might have had those paranoias beforehand but they were being fuelled by what she was being told by Martin Bashir."