'What a curse black sheep are in a family!': The Queen Mother's thoughts

[lilibet80]

because his intended bride was a Nazi informant.

Sorry, but there is zero proof of this, no documents that show this, only documents repeating rumours circulated by those keen to portray Wallis as dangerous.

Wallis Simpson, the Nazi minister, the telltale monk and an FBI plot
US papers shed light on efforts to spy on fascist sympathisers. US papers shed light on efforts to spy on fascist sympathisers.

Little did they know that the previous night instructions had gone out from President Roosevelt to FBI chief J Edgar Hoover to launch what was to be an extraordinary covert intelligence exercise that had to fool both the exiled royals and the US secret service agent who was guarding them.

The exercise was launched after the FBI had been passed intelligence that the duke and duchess were being used by the Nazis to obtain secrets which could wreck the allies' war effort. The US investigation became even more lurid when FBI agents interviewed a benedictine monk in a Franciscan monastery in the United States; Father Odo had once been the Duke of Wurttemberg, a minor German royal with connections to Queen Mary, the duke's mother, and her brother, the Duke of Athlone, then governor general of Canada.

He told them that a prime suspect in the investigation - Joachim von Ribbentrop, then the Nazis' foreign minister - had been the duchess's lover when he was ambassador to Britain in 1936. The minister was already thought to have been supplied with information by the duchess during the German invasion of France in 1940. Now it was suggested that there was far closer arrangement.

Father Odo told the agent: "He knew definitely that von Ribbentrop, while in England, sent the then Wallis Simpson 17 carnations every day. The 17 supposedly represented the number of times they had slept together."

By the time the US president authorised the intelligence operation, the couple had been deserted and snubbed by the royal family and the British establishment. They were suspected of favouring the Nazis after they visited Germany in 1937 and were entertained by Hitler and other senior Nazis.

A year after war broke out, the FBI sent a memo to President Roosevelt outlining the agency's worries about the couple. It stated: "It has been ascertained that for some time, the British government has known that the Duchess of Windsor was exceedingly pro-German in her sympathies and connections and there is strong reason to believe that this is the reason why she was considered so obnoxious to the British government that they refused to permit Edward to marry her and maintain the throne.

"Both she and the Duke of Windsor have been repeatedly warned by representatives of the British government that in the interest of the morale of the British people, they should be exceedingly circumspect in their dealings with the representatives of the German government. The duke is in such state of intoxication most of the time that he is virtually non compos mentis. The duchess has repeatedly ignored these warnings."

When war broke out, the duke, a serving officer, had been posted to France to liaise between the British and French armies. But the secret memo, on September 13 1940, reports that an informant had "established conclusively that the Duchess of Windsor has recently been in touch with Joachim von Ribbentrop and was maintaining constant contact and communication with him."

"Because of their high official position, the duchess was obtaining a variety of information concerning the British and French official activities that she was passing on to the Germans."

After the Germans invaded northern France in May 1940, the couple fled to Biarritz in the south. But the FBI noted that the Nazis were able to score a propaganda coup by broadcasting that the "increasing successes of the German armies" had compelled the couple to retreat to a Biarritz hotel. Within minutes of checking in, Berlin radio announced their hotel room number because the unnamed informant "had ascertained that the duchess had informed von Ribbentrop of her itinerary, schedule, etc, prior to her departure from their villa."

The couple then travelled to Spain in June 1940 "but the communications between the duchess and von Ribbentrop were apparently facilitated because of the pronounced Nazi sympathies in Spain."

In July 1940, the pair moved to Portugal where the duke made indiscreet remarks that Britain stood little chance of resisting a German invasion and may as well try to settle for peace with the Germans. Ribbentrop, encouraged by these remarks, hatched a plot to lure the Windsors into German hands.

But Winston Churchill had arranged for the duke to become governor of the Bahamas in August 1940.

"The British were and are always fearful that the duchess will do or say some thing which will indicate her Nazi sympathies and support, and consequently it was considered absolutely essential that the Windsors be removed to a point where they would do absolutely no harm," wrote the FBI in the memo, one of a batch of 227 pages released to the Guardian under the US freedom of information act. The FBI believed that the Bahamas were selected to prevent the duchess from coming into contact with British officials and scooping up more secrets to leak and that special precautions were taken, presumably by the British, to prevent her from "establishing any channel of communication with von Ribbentrop."


On May 2, an FBI agent wrote to Hoover, saying that an English socialite had told an informant that he had definite proof that Herman Goering, Hitler's deputy, and the Duke of Windsor had reached a deal - "after Germany won the war, Goering, through control of the army, was going to overthrow Hitler and then he would install the duke as king of England."

The informant also stated that there was no doubt that "the Duchess of Windsor had had an affair with Ribbentrop, and that of course she had an intense hate for the English since they had kicked them out of England".
© Guardian News & Media 2008
Published: 6/29/2002

[drezzle]

Thanks for the article Lilibet80.  It sounds more like treason which is a crime someone could have used to revoke their passports and kept them out of England permanently if it was that bad.

[Jupiter]

The US investigation became even more lurid when FBI agents interviewed a benedictine monk in a Franciscan monastery in the United States; Father Odo had once been the Duke of Wurttemberg, a minor German royal with connections to Queen Mary, the duke's mother, and her brother, the Duke of Athlone, then governor general of Canada.

He told them that a prime suspect in the investigation - Joachim von Ribbentrop, then the Nazis' foreign minister - had been the duchess's lover when he was ambassador to Britain in 1936. The minister was already thought to have been supplied with information by the duchess during the German invasion of France in 1940. Now it was suggested that there was far closer arrangement.

Father Odo told the agent: "He knew definitely that von Ribbentrop, while in England, sent the then Wallis Simpson 17 carnations every day. The 17 supposedly represented the number of times they had slept together."

And how exactly did this priest 'know definitely' that Wallis had an affair with Ribbentrop? What proof did he have? The FBI agents did not specify, simply repeating what this monk said as fact. If the FBI had stated what evidence the monk provided to back up his claims and if this evidence was included in reports for us all to see, then I'd think they have a case. Seems like rumours repeated so much that people accept it as fact and report it as something they definitely 'know.' All these 'unnamed informants' saying that Ribbentrop knew of the Duchess' itinerary and schedule and saying how she was in contact with Ribbentrop but not saying how they knew this. If they had provided surefire evidence that she was in contact with Ribbentrop like phone records and photographs that are on file which we can all see, then I would have believed it. But all I hear is how this person knows this and that but they never back up their claims. Reports based on hearsay. The strength of the conclusions in the FBI reports all lying not in physical evidence but in what so and so said but never produced anything solid to back it up.

If I had read a newspaper stating as definite fact that Charles and Camilla had a phone conversation where they delighted in the idea of Charles being Camilla's tampon, I wouldn't believe it based on someone saying it really happened because it is what they heard from someone else, but not producing anything solid in terms of evidence. But because solid proof was actually presented, the actual tape recordings available for all to hear if they called a special hotline number, I believe it. In the same way I can't place much merit in FBI agents interviewing people with no solid evidence but plenty of repeated gossip about a woman who was hated and presented as this evil something because she was perceived to have 'stolen' the King, and therefore many things said about her are bound to be nasty and accepted as true.

[Trudie]

The Duke of Windsor had a valid British passport.  There was no legal reason to keep him out of the country.  In fact he visited England whenever he chose.  Whether the King and Queen wanted him in England or not does not matter.  I don't believe they cared at all if he came to England as long as he did not bother the King for money or try to foist his wife on the Queen.  The King and Queen could have done all the "bidding" they wanted, but the government could not keep him or his wife out of the country, they had committed no crime and could come and go as they pleased anywhere in the world.

So which is it Lilibet? If the Duke and Duchess were the Nazi sympathizer's and there was actual proof of that including collaboration with Von Ribbentrop do you think for one minute the Dukes passport wouldn't have been revoked and the neither would have been allowed into the country again as traitors. The fact is there was nothing to support allegations that the Duchess had liaisons with Von Ribbontroop this was all propaganda too make sure the Windsors were vilified.

[Trudie]

The US investigation became even more lurid when FBI agents interviewed a benedictine monk in a Franciscan monastery in the United States; Father Odo had once been the Duke of Wurttemberg, a minor German royal with connections to Queen Mary, the duke's mother, and her brother, the Duke of Athlone, then governor general of Canada.

He told them that a prime suspect in the investigation - Joachim von Ribbentrop, then the Nazis' foreign minister - had been the duchess's lover when he was ambassador to Britain in 1936. The minister was already thought to have been supplied with information by the duchess during the German invasion of France in 1940. Now it was suggested that there was far closer arrangement.

Father Odo told the agent: "He knew definitely that von Ribbentrop, while in England, sent the then Wallis Simpson 17 carnations every day. The 17 supposedly represented the number of times they had slept together."

And how exactly did this priest 'know definitely' that Wallis had an affair with Ribbentrop? What proof did he have? The FBI agents did not specify, simply repeating what this monk said as fact. If the FBI had stated what evidence the monk provided to back up his claims and if this evidence was included in reports for us all to see, then I'd think they have a case. Seems like rumours repeated so much that people accept it as fact and report it as something they definitely 'know.' All these 'unnamed informants' saying that Ribbentrop knew of the Duchess' itinerary and schedule and saying how she was in contact with Ribbentrop but not saying how they knew this. If they had provided surefire evidence that she was in contact with Ribbentrop like phone records and photographs that are on file which we can all see, then I would have believed it. But all I hear is how this person knows this and that but they never back up their claims. Reports based on hearsay. The strength of the conclusions in the FBI reports all lying not in physical evidence but in what so and so said but never produced anything solid to back it up.

If I had read a newspaper stating as definite fact that Charles and Camilla had a phone conversation where they delighted in the idea of Charles being Camilla's tampon, I wouldn't believe it based on someone saying it really happened because it is what they heard from someone else, but not producing anything solid in terms of evidence. But because solid proof was actually presented, the actual tape recordings available for all to hear if they called a special hotline number, I believe it. In the same way I can't place much merit in FBI agents interviewing people with no solid evidence but plenty of repeated gossip about a woman who was hated and presented as this evil something because she was perceived to have 'stolen' the King, and therefore many things said about her are bound to be nasty and accepted as true.

This post says it all everything was hearsay without physical proof. I have stated my questions above why the contradictions?

[Ursula]

The Duke of Windsor had a valid British passport.  There was no legal reason to keep him out of the country.  In fact he visited England whenever he chose.  Whether the King and Queen wanted him in England or not does not matter.  I don't believe they cared at all if he came to England as long as he did not bother the King for money or try to foist his wife on the Queen.  The King and Queen could have done all the "bidding" they wanted, but the government could not keep him or his wife out of the country, they had committed no crime and could come and go as they pleased anywhere in the world.

So which is it Lilibet? If the Duke and Duchess were the Nazi sympathizer's and there was actual proof of that including collaboration with Von Ribbentrop do you think for one minute the Dukes passport wouldn't have been revoked and the neither would have been allowed into the country again as traitors. The fact is there was nothing to support allegations that the Duchess had liaisons with Von Ribbontroop this was all propaganda too make sure the Windsors were vilified.

I agree AND if there was any truth to that I'm sure the QM would have seen to it that the passports were confiscated. She was on a mission. 

[lilibet80]

It is my firm belief that the Duke of Windsor and Duchess of Windsor werea Nazi sympathizers.  However, no one was going to make a scandal about it by keeping them out of the country or branding them as traitors.  They got them out of the country once the war began so they would not be kidnapped by Hitler.  British Intelligence was watching the Germany Embassy at all times, they saw who came and went.  Wallis Simpson was seen quite often going in and out of the embassy.  Dudley Forwood, a courtier, reported that David would tell Wallis what went on in meetings concerning Germany and then Wallis would go and report to Ribbentrop.  Nobody would have investigated the DOW if there had not been plenty of evidence of suggest their dealings with the Germans.  When The DOW took his wife to Germany to visit Hitler, troops had already been taken into the Rhineland, against the Treaty of Versailles.  Their host on that trip was the Duke of Coburg, a rabid Nazi and head of the Red Cross.  While the Duke and Duchess were in Germany euthanasia was being practiced on the mentally ill, mentally retarded and socially unacceptable innocent civilians of the Reich.  To the end of his life when asked about Hitler, the DOW also said "I never thought Hitler was such a bad chap."  Where there is smoke there is fire.

[Jupiter]

We are all free to believe what we want. Personally, I can't accept as gospel unsubstantiated gossip that Wallis passed information to Ribbentrop. Where is the evidence? Forwood did not say that Wallis would then run off to Ribbentrop after David had confided in her regarding Germany, he only said that David confided in Wallis everything that went on in meetings regarding Germany. The bit about Wallis going off to Ribbentrop is from all these 'rumours' where no one has ever produced any solid evidence like photos. It must be remembered that before the war, the world wasn't very well-informed of some of the more sinister aspects of the Nazi regime. It was only after the war that the full horrors came to light. Where there is smoke there is fire, but to me the source of all this smoke is a smear campaign against the Windsors, particularly Wallis. David had been the most popular Prince of Wales in history, very gifted in his role while Bertie was shy and stuttering. It was in the interests of the powers-that-be to smear David's image as much as possible so that people would not support him but turn to Bertie. At a time when the world might be going to war, what better way to achieve this than by spreading rumours that he was in the enemy camp?

The only surefire evidence of Nazi approval from any royal that has ever existed is when Bertie went on the balcony of Buckingham Palace before the war proudly waving around a paper that had been signed making them allies with Nazi Germany. No one accuses him of being a Nazi lover, people either excuse him or choose to forget. Bertie was not a pro-Nazi despite this, but people believe that Wallis was a Nazi spy based not on physical evidence but gossip.

There was a Nazi plot to kidnap the Duke and Duchess. In official German papers, it was made clear that Hitler ordered that force should be used against David and Wallis to get them to do what they wanted. If they were such Nazi lovers and spies why would the use of force be necessary?

[Ursula]

Excellent post Jupiter. Your reasoning is very logical. 

[Trudie]

Lillibet  I hate to point this out to you but the Duke of Coburg was a cousin of David's so it was quite possibly the reason why he was the host of the German trip. At that time no one in the world knew what Hitlers agenda really was and appeasement seemed the only way to avoid war. Jupiter is correct why would Hitler have to order force in order for the Windsors to do what he wanted? As for scandal by revoking his passport and allowing him and her to enter the country that would not have provoked a scandal in the least IMO due to all the damaging gossip that had been going around during the abdication crises that would have been a mere hiccup. If They were the Nazi Sympathizer's you claim then given the sentiment that would have been something to promote the King and Queen's patriotism if it could have been proven. The fact is it was not proven and was in fact just gossip based on someones agenda.

[lilibet80]

Quote from Jupiter:  "Forwood did not say that Wallis would then run off to Ribbentrop after David had confided in her regarding Germany, he only said that David confided in Wallis everything that went on in meetings regarding Germany."

I personally heard Dudley Forwood say this on a documentary about this subject.  I taped it and heard it again. 

Yes, the Duke of Coburg was David's cousin, but my point is what on earth were David and Wallis going to Germany to meet Hitler for?  He said to learn about housing.  What was David going to do with this information.  He was no longer King.  Was he going to use this knowledge while living at the Waldorf Towers, visiting Biarritz, or at his mill in France? 

[Trudie]

I suppose it hadn't occurred to you he may have wanted to learn about housing? He was told to live abroad for a few years and then come home and probably hoped to have some sort of role. I don't think for one minute he thought that his exile was to be permanent.

[lilibet80]

It had occurred to me Trudie, thank you, but why did he have to learn about housing from Hitler?  There are other ways to learn about the subject other than going to a country that was in delicate negotiations with Britain.  He sealed his doom as far as getting some sort of role in England after going to Germany.  Whatever reason he gave, it was a foolish thing to do and made a terrible impression.  Do you understand that British Intelligence knew exactly what Hitler was planning?  Anyone who read Mein Kampf knew he was going to start another war so he could rule the world.  His cousin the Duke of Coburg was head of the Red Cross.  He certainly was aware of the euthanasia being practiced.  Theaters in Germany were showing persuasive documentaries to convince the citizens that killing the mentally ill and retarded was the humane thing to do so as to carve out a country filled with "perfect" Aryan specimens.  The intelligensia were leaving in droves and the Jews, many of whom were decorated veterans of the first world war were running for their lives.  I believe that one of the DOW's aims was to give Wallis a taste of what it would be like to be on a state visit.  However, there are many countries in this world.  Why did he have to choose Germany! 

[Trudie]

I believe he chose Germany because Hitler had turned their economy around providing jobs in factories and such it was seen as a success expecially since Britain was in the grips of depression remember his famous "something must be done" when visiting a mine. Hitler was very careful in what factories were visited and no one knew the extent to which he was building arms and or the euthanasia he had already started using was to become the basis for the extermination of millions of Jews. Neville Chamberlain screwed up thinking he had appeased Hitler, Thank God Winston Churchill saw what was happening and entered into the war. Though I must say I am not proud of the fact that our country hesitated for so long and Our Ambassador JP Kennedy was a totally incompetent and ignorant fool also for not seeing the warning signs Even President Roosevelt was incensed by Kennedy.

[Lucy]

Good grief ! Wallis had no valid information to pass on to anyone...and of course she and David weren't the only ones to admire Hitler at the time...so did the Queen Mum, who sent him a jolly Christmas card...Many people were fooled by Hitler BEFORE the devastation became so apparent.
Remember the plot to kidnap Edward/David? Now WHY would the Nazis have to kidnap a man in cahoots with them????
Don't think for one nano second the United States would have tolerated Nazi sympathizers...the Windsors would have been executed, like other traitors.

'Queen Mum wanted peace with Hitler'

By Sophie Goodchild, Home Affairs Correspondent -The Independent


When Oxford University's Bodleian Library released a tranche of papers
relating to the royal family last week, one box of documents was
missing: the rapidly notorious Box 24.


Experts assumed that the papers had been suppressed because they
contained vitriolic remarks by the Queen Mother about the Duchess of
Windsor. This, senior government sources have told the Independent on
Sunday, is not the case. The reason that papers were withheld is
potentially far more embarrassing: they spell out the true extent of
the Queen Mother's pro-appeasement views on the brink of the Second
World War.


The papers, part of a collection of letters belonging to the first
Viscount Monckton of Brenchley, a close friend of Edward VIII, dwell on
the relationship between the Queen Mother and the pro-appeasement
foreign secretary, Lord Halifax. The letters are said to show her
hostility towards Churchill and her desire that the deeply unpopular
Halifax be Prime Minister instead.


The letters, which include private correspondence between the Queen
Mother and Halifax himself, suggest the battle to preserve the monarchy
was a concern which weighed above all others. As leader, Halifax was
likely to have sued for peace with Hitler on the understanding that he
allowed the monarchy to continue under a Nazi occupation.


Lord Halifax was foreign secretary between 1939 and 1940 but was sent
to Washington by Winston Churchill to be British Ambassador from 1941
to 1946. He died in 1959.


Philip Ziegler, who wrote the official biography of Edward VIII, said
he had seen only the letters relating to the abdication but confirmed
that the Queen Mother had a close relationship with Halifax. "She was
known to be very fond of Halifax indeed," he said.

Of course Wallis and David had many close Jewish friends...some of the Rothchilds among them, such as Count Eugene.

[lilibet80]

On Nov. 20, 1995, the Washington Times reported, based on recently discovered Portuguese Secret Service files first published in the London Observer, that the Duke of Windsor had been in close collaboration with the Nazis in Spain and Portugal to foment a revolution in wartime Britain, that would topple the Churchill government, depose his brother King George VI, and allow him to regain the throne, with Queen Wallis [Simpson, the American divorcée, for whom he abdicated the throne] at his side. Portuguese surveillance revealed that Walter Schellenberg, head of Gestapo counterintelligence, was one point of contact in this plot. After Schellenberg met with the Spanish ambassador to Portugal, Nicolás Franco, brother of fascist Gen. Francisco Franco, Ambassador Franco told a Portuguese diplomat: ``The Duke of Windsor, free from the responsibilities of the war, in disagreement with English politicians, could be the man to put at the head of the Empire.''

[Lucy]

Bowes Lyons Family Friends of Hitler....

A further dynastic marriage was to the well-known Baring family of
bankers.  Their influence kept on expanding and expanding.  Frances
Dora Smith married Sir Claude Lyon-Bowes, who were the grandparents of
Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon who would marry Prince Albert (Bertie) in 1923.
Prince Albert became King George V1 in 1936 and Elizabeth become Queen
Elizabeth 1 - later known as the Queen Mother. Frances Dora Smith
married Sir Claude Lyon-Bowes, who were the grandparents of Elizabeth
Bowes-Lyon who married Prince Albert (Bertie) in 1923. Prince Albert
became King George V1 in 1936 and Elizabeth become Queen Elizabeth 1 -
later known as the Queen Mother.[bIn recent years, newspaper article
concerning the Queen Mothers favourable attitude to the "pro-peace
movement" spoke of her "desire to avert war with Germany and for
closer ties to be established between the two countries." [/b] [37]   One
newspaper went so far as to state that the Queen would have willingly
accepted a German occupation providing that the monarchy and her place
in it remained intact. [38]

Her brother, David Bowes-Lyon, to whom she was exceptionally close was,
before the war, a director of Lazard Brothers bankers and who also held
an "important but vaguely defined role in SOE." [39]   The
Lazard's connection is significant inasmuch as this bank was a link
to pro-nazi Sir Henri Deterding of Royal Dutch Shell and Viscount
Bearsted of Hill Samuel, both of whom connect to Baron Kurt von
Schroder - a hard core nazi, a financier of SS chief Heinrich Himmler
and a leading member of the "circle of friends of the
Reichsfuhrer." Von Schroder coincidentally employed Allen Dulles as
his American attorney [40] Royal Dutch Shell has long believed to be
largely owned by the Dutch and British royal families.


Von Schroder was also a member of the Anglo-German Fellowship and a
director of the bankers, Lazard Brothers. The Anglo-German fellowship
was founded in 1935 by German banker Ernest Tennant - a close friend of
Hitler's Foreign Minister, Joachim von Ribbentrop - and had numerous
members who admired Hitler.  Some, went even further.


For example, Sir Oswald Mosley founded the fascist British Black
shirts, which was funded by Berlin.  Another was nazi enthusiast,
Admiral Sir Barry Domville, who would later become a Shickshinny
Knight. [41]   Charles Edward, Duke of Saxe Coburg & Gotha was sent by
Hitler to England to be the President of the Fellowship with
instructions to improve Anglo-German relations and to push for an
alliance between both countries.  Another member was the Duke of
Hamilton, who as we have seen, was the British point of contact sought
by Rudolf Hess in his flight to Scotland.  Saxe Coburg Gotha is, of
course, the real family name of the British royal family, who changed
to Windsor during the First World War to dilute any expressions of
animosity by the British public.


The connections of the British royal family to the Nazis continue.
Prince Phillip Mountbatten's (Duke of Edinburgh) closest sister in
age, Princess Sophie, married Prince Christopher of Hesse, who was a
member of Himmler's staff, enlisting as an "agent." [42]   Prince
Christopher would die in an aircraft accident in 1944, preceding by two
years the extremely suspicious death of Prince George, the Duke of Kent
and brother of the King, George VI  - who also died in an aircraft
"accident."


The Duke of Kent died on 25th August 1942 aboard a Sunderland flying
boat belonging to 228 Squadron of Coastal Command that crashed into a
hill, called the Eagle's Rock, near Berriedale, Caithness, Scotland.
The authors of the book "Double Standards" make a strong case that
the aircraft was sabotaged on the instructions of Churchill, in order
to avert the conclusion of a secret alliance agreed in principle
between Germany and England that was to be signed in Sweden by the Duke
of Kent, presumably on behalf of his brother, the King.  The authors
believe that aboard the aircraft and travelling with the Duke was none
other that deputy fuehrer, Rudolf Hess.


Staying at Balmoral the night before the crash, according to one
biography of the Queen Mother, the Duke feasted on a last supper of
sorts.  His dinner companion was Prince Bernhard of the Netherlands.
[43]

Perhaps the Portugese papers were forged like these:

The Sunday Times
ran an
article at the beginning of the month entitled 'Historian in Himmler
dispute
was in earlier forgery furore'.  This related primarily to British
historian
Martin Allen's new book on Himmler, but it transpires that some of the
source material for that book, from the National Archives, was faked,
and
now material he used earlier regarding the Duke of Windsor also appears
to
have been forged.  The second part of the article goes on to say:

'It has now emerged that Allen was involved in an earlier forgery over
a
book he published in May 2000 about the purported role of the Duke of
Windsor in helping Nazi war plans.  The book, 'Hidden Agenda: How the
Duke
of Windsor Betrayed the Allies',  accused the duke of treason.  It said
he
had passed secrets of French defences to Hitler, easing the way for the


invasion of France in May 1940.


The book was partly based on what appeared to be an incriminating
handwritten letter from the former Edward VIII to Hitler in November
1939.


Written in German, it makes veiled references to a tour of the French
front
line that the duke had just made.  The duke asks Hitler to pay close
attention to the information that an intermediary bringing the letter
to the
dictator has memorised.


The letter appeared to suggest that the duke, who abdicated as king in
1936
because he wanted to marry an American divorcée, was willing to resume
the
British throne once Britain had been bullied into a peace settlement.


However, as with the Himmler documents, some scientific experts cast
doubt
on the letter's authenticity.


Allen had been advised that there was no reason to doubt the genuine
nature
of the document  but Robert Radley and Leslie Dick, both chemists and
forensic document examiners, conducted their own checks for The Sunday
Times.  Radley found "many discrepancies" between known samples of the
duke's handwriting and the handwriting in the letter  that made him
"highly
suspicious".  Dick concluded that the letter was "most probably the
result
of a skilled;led attempt at forgery".


Radley found at least 50 unnatural "pen-lifts" - a sign, in his view,
of an
individual attempting to copy another person's handwriting.


A third expert, Peter Bowker, studied the paper used for the letter.
He
found that it appeared to have been "baked" to make it look older that
it
was.  "This document should be viewed with grave suspicion," he said.

[Jupiter]

Quote from Jupiter:  "Forwood did not say that Wallis would then run off to Ribbentrop after David had confided in her regarding Germany, he only said that David confided in Wallis everything that went on in meetings regarding Germany."

I personally heard Dudley Forwood say this on a documentary about this subject.  I taped it and heard it again. 

Good for you. But someone saying something does not make it true. In the absence of evidence to back this claim, I have no choice but to regard it as repeated gossip that someone chose to believe and repeat it again on TV.

[Ursula]

i really don't mean to oversimplify the issue, but maybe the Duke and Duchess went to Germany because they were given a warm welcome and the recognition that was denied to them at home.  Maybe it was that simple.  The visit gave the Duke a chance to show off Wallis and for her to experience the sort of status/treatment he felt she was entitled to.  Only my opinion.     

[drezzle]

Radley found at least 50 unnatural "pen-lifts" - a sign, in his view,
of an individual attempting to copy another person's handwriting.

Great Lucy -- you keep quite a stash of information.  I have a thick book of handwriting analysis but never noticed anything about "pen-lifts" but do remember those from when I tried to forge my parent's sig on some report cards.   :blush:

[Lucy]

Read Spy Catcher by Peter Wright, banned in Britian because it exposes who was the REAL BLACK SHEEP in the family, David Bowes Lyon , who had to be recalled from Washington, D.C. for illegal activities...
THAT is one of the reasons the QM went sooo far overboard to humiliate Edward and Wallis....the problem was her own brother, not Bertie's.

http://www.antiqbook.com/boox/gib/56725.shtml
Thank you, Drezzle!! :)

[drezzle]

That's one book I'm gonna get and read.  Thanks Lucy.

[lilibet80]

David Bowes-Lyon made a mess of everything he ever touched, but do you really think that the QM was sitting all day and thinking of ways to make the Windsors miserable more than 6 years after the abdication?  The business with David Bowes-Lyon happened in 1943.  The King and Queen were dealing with a war.  The Duke and Duchess were not a prime interest with either of them.  To hear some of you one would think that was all they had to do with themselves--think of ways to torture the Windsors.  Again, Elizabeth did not like Wallis because she insulted her and made fun of her.  Bertie was disgusted with David because he had had to give up half his inheritance to satisfy David, even though David had a million dollars stashed away.  All Elizabeth did was to leave the palace when David was expected and refused to receive Wallis, as did Queen Mary.   After David Bowes-Lyon was called back to England from D.C. how did Elizabeth go "overboard" to humiliate Edward and Wallis?  She was embarrassed enough about her brother, Wallis and David did not figure in. 

[Trudie]

At that point weren't the Windsors in the Bahamas? of course they were far enough away to not be a daily topic but then again the QM always went out of her way to hide any unsavory ghosts in her own closet.

[drezzle]

All of you, both sides here, have excellent arguments.  :thumbsup:  Now I don't know what to think and my easa just flapp'n 'n da wind.  I'll have to pick up another book on this subject.