Crisis in Catalonia and Felipe speaks to the nation

[TLLK]

https://elpais.com/elpais/2017/10/03/inenglish/1507025584_438952.html

Summary of what has been going on in Catalonia over the weekend.

Catalan leader vows to declare independence within days after Spain's King Felipe VI says vote illegal

Should add the Felipe's speech would have been written for him by the government and PM Rajoy.

This is a terrible crisis for all of Spain. :(

[Curryong]

I'm afraid it is, TLLK. Things seem to have come to an impasse. I don't see what else King Felipe could have done or said this week other than what he has, but I'm not sure that Catalian hardliners are listening any more.

It's quite irritating to me too, to have people compare this to the Scottish situation and referenda. Scotland was a separate sovereign nation with its own monarch until King James I/VI was crowned King of England following the death of Elizabeth I. That was never the case with Catalonia,  which was part, I believe, of the ruler of Aragon's possessions in medieval times.

I know the separatists have many grievances including taxation issues, and during Franco's time the region was just crushed, punished. However, it doesn't exactly exude confidence to learn of the corrupt activities of some of the Catalonian officials in past years.

Some people are even talking civil war. I sincerely hope and pray that it doesn't come to that and I do think cooler heads will eventually prevail, without Spain splitting into regions. We know there are other parts of the Basque region for example, who would try to follow suit if things become unstable.

[TLLK]

I so agree @Curryong and that there was nothing else for Felipe to say last night. 50% of the registered voters in Catalonia didn't participate in this illegal referendum, but they are being silenced. I've read reports that even children not teens,  were voting!  Felipe appeared to be addressing their concerns in his speech and assuring them of the nation's support. I have grave concerns that this could be a very volatile situation soon. I'm so sorry that Felipe is facing this national crisis so  early in his reign. Both he and Letizia always use Catalan in their speeches there and visit the region far more than other parts of the nation. I understand the desire for independence, but strongly believe that any separation must be carried out in a lawful manner.

The economic impact is already being felt as people are beginning to move their money out of Catalan banks and companies are already considering a move out of the region.

This is nothing like the Scottish referendum that was carried out legally and the two should not be compared IMHO.

[royalanthropologist]

The image of the police using batons to stop people voting convinced me that Catalonia must be independent if that is what they want. The Spanish government should arrange for a referendum like they did in Scotland. If the remainders are confident, they have nothing to fear. It is absurd in this day and age to avoid people engaging in a symbolic referendum. As for the King, good luck with him convincing the separatists. He is now going to be a legitimate target of their ire and I am certain that they will eventually get separated, if only to get rid of the monarchy.

[Curryong]

^ Yes, the violence is unacceptable, however it's been estimated that up to 50% of the Catalon people don't want independence from Spain. Opposition parties abstained from taking part in this dodgy referendum.

And if independence was given or achieved, as Scotland saw in debates before their lawful referendum, being a small independent state can be a very lonely and friendless spot. Almost all Catalonia's exports are to the rest of Spain. They use the euro or Spanish currency, something that wouldn't be available to them after independence as a national currency.

The EU has enough small debtor nations hanging off its communal (German) teat. Would it want another? Extremely doubtful. And Catalonia would have to apply for membership all over again. What would it do in the meantime? Its borders would be locked, duties levied on its exports, custom points would have to be set up. Spain is an EU country, as is near neighbour France. Would they trade with a country outside the bloc? Doubtful.

Already banks, businesses within Catalonia are panicking and making arrangements to move away if the worse comes to the worse. Not a very pleasant prospect in view, IMHO.

[TLLK]

On several occasions, the independence activists have tried to hold a negotiated referendum such as in Scotland and Quebec. However, the dominant political parties in Spain have said no. The center-right Popular Party, which is currently in power in the central government, argues that a referendum on self-determination is illegal, among other things because Catalonia already is almost totally self-governing as it is.

The Catalans already manage their own prison system, their police, education and health. As far as the treasury is concerned, they control tax collection while the redistribution of public funds is controlled by the central government. Generally speaking, Catalonia is one of the most autonomous regions in the whole of Europe.

Found this information in the El Pais article that I'd posted above. It appears that there have been attempts at a referendum in the past but the way the Spanish constitution is framed, that it would require more support from other parties as well. Their thought being that Catalonia is far more autonomous than other regions in the country and Europe.

So a judge determined that the referendum was illegal based upon his interpretation of the constitution and that is why the Guarda Civil were called in.

[royalanthropologist]

The irony of this is that Germany is now economically achieving what Hitler wanted militarily. They are effectively ruling Europe. Even Britain has to sing to their tune. Brexit was the last bravado of independence states in Europe but of recent the indicators are that those states still want to rejoin the league of German vassal states.

As for King Phillipe, he is definitely in some difficulty. It is not like in Scotland where the entire royal family is quite popular even as people want independence. Indeed one of the stipulations that the SNP promised is that the queen and her descendants would still reign over Scotland even if the separation happened. In Spain, I am not sure the statement by the king is going to endear him to the separatists who will now have a potential hate figure to focus their campaign on without fearing a substantial reply.

[TLLK]

JC, Sofia, Felipe, and Letizia have been booed for years in Catalonia because they are the figureheads of Spain and IMHO they're been unfairly compared to Franco. While I don't care for Juan Carlos's private life, I have to acknowledge that he made remarkable attempts to reach out and dialogue with those regions that suffered under the Franco regime. In the post Franco years, those regions were granted far more autonomy to try and heal those woulds.   Now to  the separatists the Bourbons  already unpopular, so I believe they've accepted it and have tried meet them halfway by speaking in Catalan, acknowledging their autonomous status with culture, education etc... However in the end, the Catalan government did call for the referendum outside of the law. Galacia, Asturias, etc..would have to follow the same if they wanted to separate. 

Here is the pro-Spain voices out today. It appears that they no longer wish to remain silent.

'We are not the silent majority anymore:' Pro-Spain Catalonians make their voices heard - YouTube

The irony of this is that Germany is now economically achieving what Hitler wanted militarily. They are effectively ruling Europe. Even Britain has to sing to their tune. Brexit was the last bravado of independence states in Europe but of recent the indicators are that those states still want to rejoin the league of German vassal states.

:goodpost:


Double post auto-merged: October 06, 2017, 01:47:06 PM

Catalan crisis: Spanish court bars MPs' independence move - BBC News - YouTube

From the BBC-Local Catalan Socialist party  which is opposed to secession goes to court to block Monday's parliamentary session in an effort to stop call for independence.

[TLLK]

Pro-unity groups were out in force today to protest the secession movement.

Barcelona: mass protest against Catalonia independence (2) - YouTube

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Spain's PM moves to impose direct rule over Catalonia | Daily Mail Online

So great to see so many Catalonians out to demand their freedom :thumbsup:, hopefully it can be done without civil war breaking out.

[royalanthropologist]

I sometimes wonder at the Spanish government. They think this is going to quieten down the separatists?

[TLLK]

Spain's PM moves to impose direct rule over Catalonia | Daily Mail Online

So great to see so many Catalonians out to demand their freedom :thumbsup:, hopefully it can be done without civil war breaking out.

IMO the situation in Catalonia is similar to Quebec though AFAIK Quebec has attempted to leave Canada by holding a legally recognized referendum on the issue like Scotland which was not the case recently in Catalonia.   Both Catalonia and Quebec have a great deal of  autonomy in their schools, language, etc.. In each there seems to be  a vocal minority that would like to see independence from the rest of the  nation. Likewise there appears to be a silent majority that is concerned about the economy, renegotiation of treaties, etc...It will be interesting to see what occurs next.

[TLLK]

Queen Letizia of Spain attends journalism awards without the King – Royal Central

[Curryong]

This crisis has certainly stepped up a notch in the last few days. The King is bound by the Constitution to act according to the Spanish Government's wishes, a quite different situation to the one Juan Carlos faced quite early in his reign, and Felipe has little room to manoevere really. As Churchill once said 'Jaw, Jaw is greatly preferable to war, war,' and one hopes that there will be room for negotiations. Whether Catalan leaders will be responsive now that their parliament has been dissolved is another question.

Our political situation her in Oz over the last few days has been farcical rather than warlike. Dual citizenship is a no-no here for Parliamentarians, and there have been High Court decisions brought down yesterday that made four of our senators plus the deputy Prime Minister (a lower House MP) ineligible to sit in Parliament because of this. Several pleaded ignorance, but that's no excuse!  :teehee:
The deputy Prime Minister being chucked out of Parliament on his ear, has brought the Turnbull federal government to within a hairs breadth of losing its majority. We live in interesting times!  :lol:

[TLLK]

^^^I saw that and thought "how could they not know?" Bizarre that they were unaware of their dual citizenship @Curryong.

Anyhow agree that Felipe had no choice but to support the constitution that publicly he's sworn to uphold on at least two occasions during his lifetime.

Thousands march against independence in Barcelona.

Thousands march in Barcelona against Catalonia independence - YouTube

[TLLK]

King Felipe's popularity at record high after the Catalonia crisis – Royal Central

© Casa de S.M. el Rey

The support for His Majesty King Felipe of Spain has never been higher than it is now according to a poll done by "Socio Métrica" and published in the Spanish newspaper "El Español" this weekend. The survey gives the King a score of 7.2 out of 10. This is the highest score King Felipe has had during his reign. The last time a ruling Spanish monarch had a score this high was in 1995 when Felipe's father, Juan Carlos, was King of Spain.

Those who have participated in the survey justify their good impression of the King in light of the King's attitude towards the current crisis in Catalonia. Another thing which is new is that the King scores equally high in all age groups, both men and women, including those with long and short education. This paper has conducted similar surveys for decades measuring the popularity of both the Spanish monarchy and the Spanish regent. At the time of the abdication of the King's father, Juan Carlos I, the popularity of the monarchy was at 3.7 out of 10.