Princess Diana curtseyed

[TLLK]

^^^Thanks for the explanation @amabel. I'd read that what is considered "hunting" has been banned in the UK. However don't groups get together now with the dogs and chase a fake fox?

[sandy]

It doesn't freeze that much here Sandy, not like it does in the US,. Of course they can't hunt on frosty ground... but it goes on all autumn right up to the spring. certainly there's hunting at Christmas.  And Since as you say Di was 3 or 4 months pregnant, it happened around January 1982... I remember it being reported on TV news, and I'm reasonably sure that it was after Christmas but still within the Christmas Holiday - (the royals taking a long break then).

What's puzzling about it is that Bradford wrote (and I think others did too) that on the same day as the fall, Diana and Charles went on a picnic. If it were in Winter, that would have been very unusual. The photos of the Caribbean vacation show a happy couple so they apparently made up and appeared to be getting along (the paparazzi took the photos)

[amabel]

What's puzzling about it is that Bradford wrote (and I think others did too) that on the same day as the fall, Diana and Charles went on a picnic. If it were in Winter, that would have been very unusual. The photos of the Caribbean vacation show a happy couple so they apparently made up and appeared to be getting along (the paparazzi took the photos)

it isn't that cold, quite often.  As I recollect they went to a beach hut.  however this hardly gibes with Dian's story that she threw herself down stairs and that Charles had treated her with indifference.
Double post auto-merged: October 20, 2017, 06:32:17 PM

^^^Thanks for the explanation @amabel. I'd read that what is considered "hunting" has been banned in the UK. However don't groups get together now with the dogs and chase a fake fox?

YOu can't hunt with dogs.  Not sure what the position is with horseback chasing. Probably there are "bloodless" hunts or paper chases.. forthose who enjoy the riding.

[sandy]

They seemed pretty cozy together in the Caribbean. Maybe they needed the alone time.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Lots more done yesterday, let me chime in....I dont wish to re-fight the JC thing again, but I do think ppl are looking at it differently, Im not suggesting a long term, multi year, romantic affair of the heart, im talking about someone at a low ebb in terms of self esteem in 86 (even I think the Prince William/JC ear similarity meaning an earlier fling being too far, IMO) and she was upset at her husbands affair, her penchant for older, powerful men(power being the ultimate aphrodisiac), and sticking it to Charles with her choice of a man, and one can see how the case of the compromising photos could have happened being seduced at a weak moment, like many other women have over the years by him.

As for Manakee, we'll never know for sure, but I dont think a 40 yr old man would think it was a good idea too to run away to another country if it was just being a shoulder to cry on, added to the body language in the interview, and even though didnt intend to make them public, I think she would have known how damaging it would be to say on tape she was adulterous. (remember it was Hewitts contribution to "Princess in Love" that forced her hand in Panorama)

I also agree with Charles not having any sexual jealousy over Diana's suitors, but I think would have been very upset over public loss of face, imo it was of poor taste for Diana to invite Hewitt to Charles 40th party, can you imagine the mushroom clouds that would have been over KP if Charles had invited Camilla to a Diana birthday party. I think some of her more rash behaviors was to try and get a response from Charles that would never come.

Ugh, please dont compare Diana to Hillary (although Barry and Vince met the same end) although Diana did dream of being first lady with Teddy in the White House, yes Teddy did cool to her, thinking she wanted him more for his money and position than himself personally.

I agree with RA that Diana did tend to go more for position than looks, although she did like tall, dark, well built men but was very forgiving in the hair department if you look at some of them (this was before the days when shaving ones head was a fashion option). Also the third child would have been a disaster in terms of keeping the marriage together.

Comparing JC to Harvey Weinstein is ludicrous, he preyed on women either through force or coercion, JC, AFAIK, used seduction, and I think he could handle a young beautiful woman with self esteem and parental issues unsure of her marriage and place in the world. She would have had security in Hewitt's affair if she could have "soldiered"  :lol: through the deployment to Germany, he was primarily there to tend to Diana's emotional and physical needs rather than financial.

As for the stairs and the scars Diana herself admitted to them, and while she wasnt always truthful, since it wasnt complimentary to her, aside from her desire to look as in as dire straits as possible, it likely true, also you can see a scar on her arm in the House of dior event dress, also you can see leg scars in pics of her coming from the gym when shes wearing Spandex shorts and a jumper.

As for the virginity test, it was her uncle (who shot himself if I recall) that vouched for her virginity (very creepy in retrospect). Mostly the palace is worried about ex boyfriends coming out of the woodwork with stories. Although it wouldnt surprise me if the RF wouldnt have wanted a checkup to see if she would have any problems conceiving a child with marrying the heir to the throne, idk if they checked for virginity.

As for the attractiveness of the men involved, I think Charles had more to do with his position and the media hype about his quest for a wife and his "action man" character. I think the palace/media was trying to package him in order to have the most chance of finding a wife for him. Ppl that wernt around in the 70s wouldnt realize to see him now that at least in the press he was packaged as an eligible bachelor. While his face wasnt much to look at he was fit and lean, so he had that going for him, he was the male version of the "butterface" which many were able to overlook with his money and position.

I think both Camilla and Diana liked his position, power lifestyle and money, RA would know more about Camillas motives, but im guessing being close to the royals like her predecessor did was a motivation, and she may actually like some things about Charles. Diana also liked that she thought at the time he couldnt divorce her, a big plus for her, and like a lot of girls at the time was enthralled with him and his exploits in the papers and such. There was likely things about him she liked as well, but I think when the "trap door" of the marriage was sprung that it wasnt going to be a dream love match, that she and things went off the rails, both had lots of parental neglect and were in a poor position to give each other what they needed. They were two "takers" in terms of emotional support and needed a "giver" to balance things out. 

As for APB, he was called by one royal biographer as" the best lay in london" so im guessing he was appealing to the ladies of the day.

As for when the fall happened, what does it matter? Again a fall down a flight of stairs does not equal guaranteed death, broken bones or hospitalization. :ugh:

[sandy]

Hewitt had those letters. I think what Diana did was a pre-emptive strike in Panorama.

Diana said no sexual affair with Mannakee and I believe her. It would have been far far to risky to sleep with a security officer in the employ of the royal family. She'd have been removed and despatched quickly IMO if she had. Everything would have been reported to the Queen and Charles. I think Diana was fantasizing about the man who would "rescue her" and it was just that no more than a fantasy. And she confided in him too much.

I know what happened to a friend who fell down a flight of stairs (not a large one either and in her own home!). She not only had broken bones she had to have surgery, she wore a neckbrace for a time, she stopped breathing for a time and had to go extensive occupational and physical therapy.   Had Diana hurtled down ALL the stairs I think she definitely would have needed hospitalization. I don't think the average person thinks it "safe" to topple down a flight of stairs. It was just a few steps for Diana. It's a serious matter to topple down stairs!

I thought Diana and Fergie had fantasized about Mrs JFK Jr and dreamed of being in the White House. Or so I read.

Diana had something better than a lover in Forstmann IMO she had a friend.

I doubt very very much Diana hit the sheets with Juan Carlos.  Why would she risk her security and custody by sneaking off with a lecherous older man. Her lovers Hewitt and Khan were a lot closer to her own age. Diana had some self respect and would not be another "bedpost notch" for  JC. And how would she have had the sex with her husband and family and his wife and family there?  Diana was not some nympho who just had to have it.

I put JC in the same category as Weinstein and Clinton. A serial womanizer. With issues.

DIana had money of her own and could have lived very comfortably even if she did not marry Prince Charles. Her future husband (if Charles had not proposed) would have been a wealthy commoner or wealthy aristo). Her sisters live very comfortably. Diana would have too. The luxuries for Diana as the Princess of Wales did not really make her happy--she wanted a happy marriage and children. I think Charles at the time needed her more than she needed him. He got turned down a few times and at 32 wanted to marry and have his heirs. Diana filled the bill.
Double post auto-merged: October 20, 2017, 10:11:53 PM

Is Fergie's killer aide plotting to spill her racy royal secrets? | Daily Mail Online

Interesting article about JFK Jr and Fergie "First Lady"

[Curryong]

I used to horse ride a lot, coming from a rural district in the county of Norfolk. However, Norfolk isn't really fox hunting country. There are shoots there quite a lot (the blasting of birds out of the sky with shot guns by parties of males on country estates, like Sandringham.)

The Master of Foxhounds Association lists about 179 active hunts still, in England and Wales. Wales alone has over fifty. Fox hunting is still legal in NI, I believe. They do still hunt with dogs but lay false trails. One person told me it can be a vanilla type scent but I don't know if that's true.

William and Harry used to hunt in their teens, (and C&C and Anne)  but in I think about 2004, fox hunting to kill foxes was banned in England and Wales, (banned in Scotland a year or two earlier) in spite of huge protests by people in the countryside.

I've only been once on a hunt and that was in the Lake District in my teens. Fox hunting there is something else! There are no horses involved, just a lot of climbing and clambering on foot up hills and down dales. It's Fell country, quite wild and barren and after a day doing that you need a week to recover! They had to practically carry me home and I was a lot fitter in those days than I am now!  It's not really an aristo activity there, just groups of farmers who know the landscape.

[sandy]

I recall Charles protested the ban. But I doubt he'd return to foxhunting even if it were made legal again. He stopped playing polo so probably he would not fox hunt anymore.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Im sorry to hear about your friend, but it doesnt happen to everyone, like I said...my OWN mum....fell down a FULL flight.... of steep basement stairs....12 or 13 of them, i forget the exact amount...and not a broken bone or injured organ, although was stiff and sore. I heard the noise of it and saw her  MYSELF at the bottom of the stairs myself. Not to mention stuntpeople do it all the time, not saying diana is one, but am saying there is a way for it to happen without serious injury, and yet also people can fall onto the floor the right way and hit their head and die, so its kind of a grab bag, depending on how you land.

Yes, Diana wouldnt have had to resort to eating cat food had she not married, however she still would have been exposed to the whole "find a good husband" culture of prior years, and status and social standing would have driven her, or her family to make sure she married well. Given her familys standing an equal or likely better standing man was what she was looking for. Classic hypergamy, its what keeps the species going, hard to fight tens of thousands of years of biology.

[TLLK]

es, Diana wouldnt have had to resort to eating cat food had she not married, however she still would have been exposed to the whole "find a good husband" culture of prior years, and status and social standing would have driven her, or her family to make sure she married well. Given her familys standing an equal or likely better standing man was what she was looking for. Classic hypergamy, its what keeps the species going, hard to fight tens of thousands of years of biology.

Truly survival of the fittest. I believe that Diana would have found someone to marry in her twenties or early thirties had she not become engaged to Charles. IMO it would have been a traditional marriage like her sisters have had. Someone who would have likely been a little older, perhaps in the military, banking, a doctor or even a courtier etc...who would be wealthy enough to support a wife/family and not really require her to have a high paying career. She could continue with volunteer work with charities and her children's school. In other words Sarah/Jane's life 3.0.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

She would have as a default or fallback position, but given her comments to the photo equipment manager for the Spencers, and her saying when she grew up shed like to be a dancer or Princess of Wales, and things like what Stephen Barry said about her being so determined, I think had Charles passed on her Andrew and/or Edward would have had their hands full LOL.

One gets the sense that she had a very small list of suitable men in her mind, but I do agree with you @TLLK  that following Sarah & Jane and marrying someone like Adam Russel who was "good enough" and fancied her would have been the "best" for her, although I wonder if at middle age, if shed have felt a nagging doubt about not marrying a royal, had she gone that route, and ultimately doomed the marriage. I hope not.

As awful as it was, what she went through, one cannot deny, was like a crucible, it tempered her into a powerful force for change and good, that would have been lacking had she followed other womens paths. Like her thoughts  earlier on, she knew something profound was coming her way..... :flower:

[royalanthropologist]

I don't think Diana really regretted marrying Charles. He was the eligible bachelor to beat them all. He opened up a world that she would never have experienced had she remained Lady Diana Spencer or married some relatively obscure posh bloke.

If she had a do-over, I actually think Diana would have remained the Princess of Wales. She would now see that the things she saw as life changing calamities could be handled better and dealt with more discreetly. She would also know the secret to Charles and the BRF.

[Trudie]

She would have as a default or fallback position, but given her comments to the photo equipment manager for the Spencers, and her saying when she grew up shed like to be a dancer or Princess of Wales, and things like what Stephen Barry said about her being so determined, I think had Charles passed on her Andrew and/or Edward would have had their hands full LOL.

One gets the sense that she had a very small list of suitable men in her mind, but I do agree with you @TLLK  that following Sarah & Jane and marrying someone like Adam Russel who was "good enough" and fancied her would have been the "best" for her, although I wonder if at middle age, if shed have felt a nagging doubt about not marrying a royal, had she gone that route, and ultimately doomed the marriage. I hope not.

As awful as it was, what she went through, one cannot deny, was like a crucible, it tempered her into a powerful force for change and good, that would have been lacking had she followed other womens paths. Like her thoughts  earlier on, she knew something profound was coming her way..... :flower:

You left out one little bit of important information Diana saying she wanted to be a ballet dancer or Princess of Wales. Diana had told her nanny that she never wanted to be divorced and Charles was the one person as Prince of Wales everyone knew this could never be allowed to divorce.

[royalanthropologist]

Oh the irony. :no: Prince Charles was the one person guaranteed to divorce Diana, if only she knew the half of it. It is actually amazing that they lasted that long. Given the fundamentals of that marriage, I would have given them three years max. Had they been an ordinary couple, they would have divorced within two years.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

You left out one little bit of important information Diana saying she wanted to be a ballet dancer or Princess of Wales. Diana had told her nanny that she never wanted to be divorced and Charles was the one person as Prince of Wales everyone knew this could never be allowed to divorce.

I left it out, because it isnt applicable to the intended point, which was that copying Jane/Sarah would have been a last resort or safety position for Diana in terms of marital prospects if Charles had not married her, that she was determined to be a part of the royal family.

I agree with RA in that she ended up getting the very thing she didnt want by marrying Charles, and that without having to keep the charade up for the public it would have ended much sooner. Had she gone more for some of the boys that were keen on her, shed have likely ended up happier but perhaps less fulfilled in terms of a sense of destiny she felt so often.

[sandy]

Oh the irony. :no: Prince Charles was the one person guaranteed to divorce Diana, if only she knew the half of it. It is actually amazing that they lasted that long. Given the fundamentals of that marriage, I would have given them three years max. Had they been an ordinary couple, they would have divorced within two years.

Yes, because he married her knowing he preferred the other woman. He did need to stay with her so he could have the heir and the spare. Charles should have told her everything before the proposal so she could have known all of it.

I think Diana would have gotten the marriage annulled had she not been a royal--after she saw those cufflinks from Camilla he wore on the honeymoon. Some women would not have hesitated a minute and dumped the guy.

[LouisFerdinand]

I don't think Diana really regretted marrying Charles. He was the eligible bachelor to beat them all. He opened up a world that she would never have experienced had she remained Lady Diana Spencer or married some relatively obscure posh bloke.

If she had a do-over, I actually think Diana would have remained the Princess of Wales. She would now see that the things she saw as life changing calamities could be handled better and dealt with more discreetly. She would also know the secret to Charles and the BRF.

It is drastically unfortunate that Charles and the BRF have a secret.   :( :(

[sandy]

It was one thing to have the title of Princess of Wales another thing to be with a man who was distant and be in a loveless marriage for the rest of her life. I think if she had put up and shut up she would have been miserable.

[Trudie]

I don't think Diana was determined to become a royal so much as she wanted a marriage that was loving and stable with no divorce option. Diana made it clear from an early age she never wanted to be divorced and at the time of her marriage the belief was there could never be a divorce. With that in mind yes Diana wanted Charles but he totally mislead her into believing she was special and he loved her the shame was he was in love with Camilla and only thought of Diana was suitable for his heirs.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

Well if thats so, it does say a lot about her lack of belief in herself being someone worth marrying, and also the  lack of faith she had in other men, that she wouldnt be able to marry someone who wouldnt divorce her unless the law forbade it.

One can understand that her parents divorce would color her outlook on marriage, and the general increase of divorce during the 60s and 70s, but usually if one is that concerned about a bad marriage outcome, they usually just dont marry. Its not the typical response to such a concern to take the drastic step of marrying someone who by law couldnt divorce her.

As much as we go on about how Diana felt about Charles having an agenda, what about (and I cant believe im mentioning it, maybe its just the day, or thinking about it from a different angle) how he may have felt about someone marrying him for, as the previous posts suggest, only the fact that by law he cant divorce her(or as they believed back in the day)??? Imagine how youd feel if someone wanted to be around you only because you cant make them go away?

Interesting food for thought, and I think Diana sold herself very short in that regard, of seeing herself as someone worth loving and marrying  :flower:

[Curryong]

I do believe that Diana was head over heels in love with Charles. However, like many nineteen year olds I also believe that she had a totally unrealistic view of what marriage entails, especially a Royal marriage.

This was combined with not knowing Charles very well, and vice versa, plus the fairy tales spun by Ms Cartland about strong silent heroes who gave up their former lives and mistresses in favour of pure and innocent maidens they could take into the rosy sunset of 'Happy Ever After Land'.

I think Diana was traumatised by the divorce and her mother seeming to abandon her and was absolutely determined that this wasn't going to happen to her and her future children. We look at the BRF now and it's littered with the corpses of failed marriages.

In those days it was very different. The only person anywhere near the throne who was divorced was Margaret. (After she joined the BRF Diana may have discovered that Anne's union wasn't the greatest, but that was afterwards.)

So Diana wasn't too far off the mark in believing that she would never be a divorcee. I can remember back to those days and the decades before, where attitudes prevailed among the the population that the BRF represented the very best of the nation's domestic life. The idea that a Prince of Wales would divorce was akin to heresy!

[sandy]

Charles should just plain have told her what was expected in a royal marriage. And his idea was being able to see Camilla and continue having her as the special friend. He also was unrealistic in his expectations. HE expected her to have just cooperated after all he may have thought he married her didn't he and she should feel honored. I don't think it is unrealistic for Diana to have expected fidelity. It was not just that there could be no divorce but she thought it would be blissful and he would be committed to her and to her only. Mountbatten must have read Cartland because he had that view of marriage, the man getting it all out of his system by having a variety of mistresses (to sleep with but not to marry) and meet the virginal young woman who has had no experience. Only he pictured his granddaughter Amanda as the Cartland heroine. I think there were many unrealistic expectations to go around.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

You both bring up some interesting points but the root issue that she felt she needed someone who it was thought to be impossible to get divorced from her vs feeling confident that she either picked the right person and/or her faith and ability to be a good wife is one worth considering more.

I think it left her open to a very small pool of suitors and just like her post divorce life, the traits those men have to either be in or obtain the necessary resources/status/etc. makes them poor husbands in the way she wanted them to be.

As for Mountbatten i dont know if he read Cartland, that was the prevalent view for most of history, young men sowed their wild oats to prove their status, and women were "tidy" to secure the best men and to be choosy about the few offspring one can have in a lifetime.

I agree that the combination of her expecting him to change his whole life for her, and he expecting her to just be honored to be "along for the ride" was a recipe for disaster.

[sandy]

A young woman like Diana would have a short list of suitors since she is from an aristo family. Her potential husband would ideally come from an aristo family, the family would have some wealth, and could not be the average middle class man who works 9 to 5 to support his family and lives in the "suburbs" or could only afford a 2 bedroom apartment. She could work briefly pre-marriage then settle down.

I think Mountbatten maybe had more of a "Gigi" scenario where Charles watches Amanda growing up and then one day notices she is a grown up young woman. Charles wrote his great uncle that he found Amanda "disturbingly beautiful."

[royalanthropologist]

There is something inherently pathetic and sad about a woman that insists the man must remain with her because there is a ring on her finger and because society will disapprove. Ditto for the idea that a man or marrying him can make you happy or fulfill your dreams. That is just childish sentimentality. Diana was living in fantasy and could not cope with the reality when it hit her.

I refuse to believe that Diana imagined Charles loved her unconditionally and exclusively. She said he actually told Camilla that he would always love her on the phone. That was proof enough that she was never his first choice but she still married him. I think that has something to do with his position.

Diana wanted to marry the POW as the position because that is what she had dreamed off since her teens. Charles' personality or emotional baggage was not about to stop her. There is no question about that. Even towards the end, she still wanted to remain married to POW the position despite the fact that Charles the man had completely turned against her and could not even bear to be in the same house with her.  Her big mistake was thinking she could change him and see off Camilla.

As I understand it, Charles did not sleep with Camilla throughout the marriage as some people dramatically claim. He slowly started drifting away from Diana as the marriage went on and the quarrels continued. He then went back to Camilla. Diana in her disturbed state was not even aware he was drifting away until it was too late. She then tried to rescue the situation by different but ultimately unsuccessful means including entreaties, reporting him to his parents, using the children as bait,  publish shaming and threats.

Something else to think about: Normally it is the older woman trying to desperately assert her rights in a failing marriage. She has lost her looks and is now on the verge of being abandoned after spending her years building the home. Her last hope is the institution of marriage, social disapproval and her children. Diana who was young and beautiful ended up using this pathetic defense of her marriage. She became the bitter avenging ex who is perpetually complaining about how wronged she was by her escaping husband.

Instead it was the older woman who was seen as not being bitter, easygoing and generally not causing trouble. Diana was trying to appeal to Charles' head whilst Camilla the older woman was appealing to his heart. Very, very strange role reversal.