Duch_Luver_4ever Digest #1

[sandy]

Parents or older relatives of the children can share their memories. Just as probably those who lived at the time of the Abdication Crisis talked about it to their children and grandchildren.

Tina Brown's 2007 book about Diana was a best seller. And there is much interest in the Diana fashion exhibit at Kensington Palace.

People who did not live through the "Camelot" years of Jackie and JFK certainly have heard of it through best selling books, films, and documentaries. One did not have to be there or even be around at the time to know.

[TLLK]

Yes they likely have a general overview of the late POTUS and FLOTUS through their history lessons and memories shared by their older relatives, but I would not expect them to have detailed knowledge of their marital issues, family life, health concerns etc...

[sandy]

There are always books..I've lost count of the books about JFK and Jackie.

[TLLK]

Yes there are but they would have to have an interest in that episode in history. To a teenager, college student or working young adult in 2017 the books detailing the marital discord between the heir to the British throne and his first wife is old news. This is not required reading that most students will engage in for their course work. IMO   the majority of people who have read the books are adults who were living in the 1980's and 1990's (Like most of us here) and can recall when the War of the Wales was a current events story or they're a relatively small group of young people with an interest in royalty.

[sandy]

I am not so sure that the exact numbers can be calculated or determined to be a "small group." Whenever there was coverage of George and Charlotte there have been photos of William and Harry with their mother. Sometimes this is learned when it is not a "requirement" for a course. Those who invest in US, People, and other popular magazines certainly have seen photos of the late Princess Diana. Tina Brown's book from 2007 was on best seller lists. Certainly some younger people also have watched the documentaries on the late Princess Diana.

[amabel]

^^^What you are saying is true, but there are many more people who are not particularly interested in royals. Those of us who do follow them are rather unique.

Frankly I don't think it is a good idea that new people finding out about the RF start off with these tapes of Diana's which are highly coloured, to say the least.

[sandy]

It is not the only book ever written about Diana nor the only primary source about Diana.

[TLLK]

^^^What you are saying is true, but there are many more people who are not particularly interested in royals. Those of us who do follow them are rather unique.

Frankly I don't think it is a good idea that new people finding out about the RF start off with these tapes of Diana's which are highly coloured, to say the least.

Good point @amabel. Yes it wouldn't be the best introduction to the who, what, where an when of royal families. IMO.

[amabel]

first impressions tend to stick, and when I see bits of the story eappearingon the Net this week it horrifies me.  Diana tyring to kill herself etc etc

[sandy]

Diana had said it was more a cry for help. She talked about the "filthy rows" she had with Charles over Camilla.

Morton's original book is still in print. I don't get the need for him to market the book again.

It's interesting how writers saw things back in 1981 about Charles and Diana. I found a book called Charles and Diana by Janice Dunlap and there is a particular passage:

The book talks about Dale Tryon as his friend and seeking her opinions on his girlfriends. "In London his favorite hostess has been bubbly blonde Lady Tryon.

Then the writer states: "The other woman to be consulted before proposing to Diana was Camilla Parker Bowles married to the Royal Household Cavalry Officer, Andrew Parker Bowles. CHarles and the Parker Bowleses used to hunt regularly together in Gloucestershire and this was one of the reasons why the Prince chose as his new home nearby Highgrove.  Newlyweds Charles and Di will have Andrew and Camilla as their neighbors. It was Camilla who had always acted as  the country version of Dale Tryon, a close friend able to act as a hostess for Charles and offer useful advice."

[amabel]

Yes it was a cry for help.  But it was he wrong way to go about it.  She only alienated Charles and the RF, and while she got public support for a time, that began to wane as people got fed up with the war of the waleses and bored iwwht the story.  It made it impossible for her marriage to keep on working in any sense of the word.  Morton didn't want to help her, he just wanted a book that would make him a fortune and he got it.

[sandy]

Well what is the "right way"? Charles apparently did not listen to her concerns about Camilla and went right on contacting her and seeing her at the hunts. Maybe the "right way" would have been for Charles to man up and work on his marriage without getting "comfort and advice" from the long time mistress.  I disagree that public support for her seemed to wane. She was very popular with the public.  Charles friends leaked stories about Diana pre Morton and what they got out of it was to curry favor with a future King.

[TLLK]

first impressions tend to stick, and when I see bits of the story eappearingon the Net this week it horrifies me.  Diana tyring to kill herself etc etc

No it does not give a very good first impression.

[sandy]

I have not seen this edition of Morton book on sale in the US yet though AMazon says a large print edition will be out in September.

[amabel]

.  I disagree that public support for her seemed to wane. She was very popular with the public.  Charles friends leaked stories about Diana pre Morton and what they got out of it was to curry favor with a future King.

well you're wrong there Sandy because she had a lot of support initially, in spite of the upper class disliking the way she made her marriage failure public.  At first the papers and a lot of the public were on her side.  however, within a few years of 1992, her stock went down, people got sick of the whole thing and the papers became more critical, publishing stories of her phone calls to Oliver Hoare, her flirtation with Will Carling etc. She was critcised by many for her affair with Dodi because M Al Fayed was so controversial. She was laughed at by many people for the story that she "visited sick people at night" when she was almost caught visiting Hasnat Khan.  however I know you don't want to believe this.

[sandy]

There is no knowing specifically how many were pro or con so no I am not wrong. There are no definitive surveys so my take on it is just as valid as yours given there is no proof.  WHo are the 'many'? There probably were also "many" who were pro Diana. I was in the UK ca 1995 and saw the papers and coverage and no, I did not see any derision of her. The coverage in the US about Dodi was not negative either. There was publicity since he was the first post divorce boyfriend (Khan did not want to go public with her) that went "public" as a couple. It was too soon to say how it all would have turned out. She could have stopped seeing him for all we know. I don't think there would have been any rushing into a second marriage for her. I don't recall reading about people "laughing at her." Maybe you and your co-workers did but I did not see or hear any "laughter."  You don't want to believe that she was still popular and not "many" disliked or disapproved of her. People Magazine had a cover class vs. cash about that time. Fergie was "cash" Diana was "class."  Al Fayed, Dodi's father was in the US promoting Harrod's on QVC and Raine Spencer appeared with him. I did not see any negativity about him in the least. People purchased the Harrod's items that were being promoted.

I don't believe there is such a thing as  "group think" and "many" turned on Diana. Julia Carling did not name Diana as a co-respondent, Carling denied an affair. Carling moved on and remarried and I don't think she is bothered by this anymore.

Diane and Oliver Hoare are still together, neither commented on the DIana years. And I doubt they ever will.

[TLLK]

well you're wrong there Sandy because she had a lot of support initially, in spite of the upper class disliking the way she made her marriage failure public.  At first the papers and a lot of the public were on her side.  however, within a few years of 1992, her stock went down, people got sick of the whole thing and the papers became more critical, publishing stories of her phone calls to Oliver Hoare, her flirtation with Will Carling etc. She was critcised by many for her affair with Dodi because M Al Fayed was so controversial. She was laughed at by many people for the story that she "visited sick people at night" when she was almost caught visiting Hasnat Khan.  however I know you don't want to believe this.

I agree @amabel that there was a definite change of how she was being featured in print media in the later years of the War of the Wales. Charles had been on the receiving end earlier by the public and press when he was airing his own side about the breakdown of their marriage, but I do believe that Diana was taken aback when it was her turn.

[sandy]

Charles was always on the receiving end. I did not see anything dramatic with people all of a sudden turning against Diana. At the time, Camilla was very unpopular.  I disagree that people "laughed at her" re: hospital visit and Hasnet. Not many people knew about Hasnet because he did not want to go public with her. There were pictures of her in the hospital but no pictures of them going out on dates together. He would visit her at KP and she would cook meals for him. The hospital visit was a blip on the radar.   I wish the word "many" was not used because it is not known how many or how few did this.

[amabel]

Charles was always on the receiving end. I did not see anything dramatic with people all of a sudden turning against Diana. At the time, Camilla was very unpopular.  I disagree that people "laughed at her" re: hospital visit and Hasnet. Not many people knew about Hasnet because he did not want to go public with her. .

it wasn't a sudden dramatic change but a gradual one over the few years after 1992.. the fact that Charles and Cam were unpopular does not mean that Dian didn't lose popularity.. to an extent.  But the more she appeared In the papers with stories of the war of the wales, the more storeis that emerged of her relationships wthi men, the more she was liable to attract negative attention. there were rumours of an affair iwht Khan. some people didn't like the idea, he got hate mail.  when she said that she visited the sick at night, some people jeered at what seemed like peculiar behaviour.. when she appeared in full make up, watching a heart operation, she was criticised.  When the phone calls to Hoare came out, she was crtiicised.  however, I know that you don't want to believe this..
Double post auto-merged: June 17, 2017, 06:49:07 AM

well you're wrong there Sandy because she had a lot of support initially, in spite of the upper class disliking the way she made her marriage failure public.  At first the papers and a lot of the public were on her side.  however, within a few years of 1992, her stock went down, people got sick of the whole thing and the papers became more critical, publishing stories of her phone calls to Oliver Hoare, her flirtation with Will Carling etc. She was critcised by many for her affair with Dodi because M Al Fayed was so controversial. She was laughed at by many people for the story that she "visited sick people at night" when she was almost caught visiting Hasnat Khan.  however I know you don't want to believe this.

I agree @amabel that there was a definite change of how she was being featured in print media in the later years of the War of the Wales. Charles had been on the receiving end earlier by the public and press when he was airing his own side about the breakdown of their marriage, but I do believe that Diana was taken aback when it was her turn.

I think that it says a lot in  a way that Di's stock did go down, because she had been very much seen as the victim in the break up of the marriage, and Charles had lost any popularity he had, at the time because he was the bad guy who cheated on the sweet lovely adored Diana.  but when it began to emerge that Diana was doig her fair share of having affairs with married men, and stuff like chasing a married man who had left her, involved iwht WIll Carling whose wife claimed she was trying to take her man form her, etc etc. the press began to make fun of her and so did people n the public eye. 
Gar Lineker said on tv that he had been invited to lunch with her but he was not goig because "the woman's trouble".  People even other celebs began to diss her, seeing her as acting oddly and wildly. Celeb wives clearly felt that she was using her position to "invite their husbands to lunch" and not them..
The fact that she said she visited people in hospital at night prompted jeers and jokes, as if she was apparenlty delusionally believing that she had some magic touch..  her watching an op In make up, was criticised, because it is not usual practice at hospitals...
There was a lot of criticism creeping in and by the time she went public with her affair with Dodi, she got quite a bit of it. I think you're right that she was a bit taken aback, but the thing is that if you make yourself too public, the press is going to find out things that they mgith not find out, if you led a quiet life.
If she had not used the press to attack Charles, the press would have been less on the watch for more and more stories about her.  they would have been more respectful in their coverage had she remained within  the RF..and not outed the failure of her marriage.
And I think she was under a lot of stress and was not thinking clearly.. she was not doing full time royal work, the boys were at school.. she was unhappy and flailing around.. and the war with Charles escalated.  But I think that before she died people were getting a bit sick of the whole thing and the story might have just run its course.. People were beginning to feel "well he's behaved badly, so has she.. I'm fed up of reading about their nonsense.." and the press might have moved on to other targets.

[sandy]

Well with Charles running around with Camilla, there was some sympathy for DIana when it was found out she was involved with Hewitt. Charles had rejected her.

What married men? Carling said there was no affair. Julia did not name her in a divorce petition. Hoare neither confirmed nor denied an affair and never said anything publicly. I doubt he ever will, he and his wife are still together. Why with the "married men" accusations it sounds like Diana had "many" she didn't.

I don't recall a "lot" of criticism about Dodi. The stories were that she was dating there was some interest because he was the first post divorce man she was going public with (not much was known about Hasnet since they never went public or were on holidays together so the media knew). Diana did not just "date Dodi" her last year, that was just a fraction of it. She called attention to the issue of Landmines, received an award in the US, and sold her iconic gowns and outfits at Sothebys for Charity. She was praised for that. I think the public was hoping she'd find happiness and settle down and she made it no secret she did want to eventually remarry. But I doubt she wanted this that same year! IT was not as if she and Dodi got engaged. They were just dating and it was "no strings" relationship thus far. Charles used the press and DImbleby to attack her. And it is not over yet, with Junor and Smith still at it.

She was not 'flailing around' if she were you would have seen her stumbling out of clubs with a series of playboys. ANd taking to drugs and drink. She was focused. I don't know why you accuse her of this when she clearly was regrouping and finding a role for herself. Her life was cut short.

Charles outed the failure of his marriage, blabbing that he was with married Camilla, forcing the PB divorce (maybe before both wanted it), and her father confronted Charles over his naming his daughter.  Charles caused more of a mess IMO than Diana did.

Charles was increasingly cold and nasty to Diana, his friends were leaking stories, he had Camilla playing hostess in what was still Diana's home too. If she were made of steel maybe she could have put up with it, It is forgotten she spent ten years in the marriage and put up with the facade.

I never heard the jeers and jokes. Maybe the people in the hospital welcomed her visits. Hospital patients like this and it is pretty dreary for them with doctors coming in all the time taking blood and giving more tests.

[amabel]

I'm sure if she really was visiting people late at night, they would nto appreciate it.. people need to sleep...
and yes Sandy there were jokes.  People joked about havng a card saying "In the event of my suffering in an accident I don not want to be visited by Diana Princess of wales.

[sandy]

I did not hear the jokes. Whatever it was it did not last long. I think small minded people made those jokes, or people with lots of time on their hands.

Hospital patients would welcome someone other than a doctor taking blood or taking scans or wiring them up to machines.  Some hospital patient are up during the night. And some do not sleep well.

[amabel]

Yes they weren't nice jokes but there were plenty of them. And I'm sure that hostpital staff and paitients would not welcome "Diana coming to visit" in the middle of the night.. I mean come on...

[Trudie]

@amabel I don't think it was so much that Diana was losing support or popularity as the media pretty much knew the divorce was coming and the media particularly those looking toward honors knew once Diana was no longer HRH or part of the inner circle had to start being more favorable to the RF. I had read back then that some hospital patients were indeed visited by Diana and were quite happy to meet and be cheered up by her.

[amabel]

I doubt if she realy visited late at night.  She did have people she visited In hospital, but I don't think that any hospital would welcome someone turning up, to a locked for the night ward sayng she watned to comfort sick people, even if ti was the Princess Of wales.
And no, I think what happened was that Diana's behaviour became more "offbeat" and the press naturally grabbed at great stories like "she's  a phone stalker" or "she's having an affair maybe with Will carling."
They mostly had not cared about Diana, as a person.. she was just a commodity to them, a story.. and they didn't care if it was a kindly story or a critical one so long as it got people to buy the paper.  So when they had run the gambit of "she's a cheated on wife" and that got boring, they were on the lookout for new things to say and unfortunately Diana obliged them by her own "invading her own privacy" and briefing the press too much.. and the more they looked at her life, at the end of the marriage, there were stories that would sell, like "she's been stalking Ol Hoare" or "she's having an affair iwht an Indian doctor maybe"..

And it wasn't just the press who were more critical.  it was jokes by comedians, people on TV like Gary Lineker..  She was mixing more with celebrity types and they are apt, if annoyed or if they have marital troubles, to go to the press and talk about it, not keep quiet.

Diana was under a lot of stress and she was not acting very sensibly.  She was seen in a car, talking to Richard kay.  She got rid of her PPOs, which made her open to more harassment from paparazzi who would chase her for a photo.
It was her own behaviour that got attention form the press and was realayed to the public.  however by 1996, I think people were getting fed up of it all, and felt "OK it was interesting for a time but now Diana is In the papers all the time..the war is still going on.  Its time they sorted out their differences, got a divorce and got on with normal life.. and just appear inthe papers now and again.  but Diana then embarked on her relationship with Dodi and that whipped the tabloid inot more interest, mainly ciritical interest because MAF was so vulgar and awful..