Duchy of Cornwall vs Duchy of Lancaster

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

So id written a bit in the HM thread about both the bad publicity of the recent "paradise papers" and the fact that the financial performance (it had lost about a quarter of its value at one point recently) that I wonder why theres such a stark contrast in the running of both Duchies.

Im guessing @TLLK  and @royalanthropologist would have more detailed info on how both the DofL and DofC are run. I do know Charles has taken a more hands on role with his duchy and even I have to tip my hat at its performance, roughly tripling its profitability in his time with it.

Id say with both the news about the QMs extravagant spending and now this with his mothers finances, maybe this is time for Charles to shine a little bit.

[TLLK]

Um....sorry I really don't have much detail to offer on the two royal duchies other than the Queen and PoW are the Dukes of Lancaster and Cornwall respectively and that much of their income is provided by them. @Curryong would also be an excellent source of information about this topic IMO.  QEII receives income from the state via the Sovereign's Grant to fund the activities of herself and the DoE so she reportedly helps the working members of her family by financing their engagements with income from the Duchy of Lancaster. The exception being the PoW and his family, so he uses funds generated by Duchy of Cornwall to fund his own and his family's work.

I do believe with the recent revelations that we can deduce that QEII has likely had her finances managed by others for decades while her heir appears to have more of a hands on role in the management of the Duchy of Cornwall. Both employ many in various positions and any investments that are made are a gamble just like with any other portfolio. However considering where QEII's investments were being made, it would appear that she didn't have much personal involvement.

https://www.duchyoflancaster.co.uk/

Home | The Duchy of Cornwall

[royalanthropologist]

Quite simply, POW is a better manager than his mother and his mother is a better figurehead than him. Charles took over his Duchy when it was making losses of about $7 million a year. Currently it makes profits in excess of $50 million per year. Lancaster is run by a committee with parliamentary oversight so you can imagine the chaos with all the bureaucracy (The GOP in the USA has a point on this: government is terrible at business).

It is true that the POW has a knack for Edwardian extravagance which he most likely inherited from his grandma. I hear the parties at Highgrove and Clarence House are just extraordinary. But again he seems to be making the money to support his lavish lifestyle. Kinda "Work hard and play harder" ethos.

I also think that Charles has a very intimate knowledge of estate management and agriculture. He seems to be able to jump onto bandwagons before they become fashionable. By the time other people come in, he has made a killing in profits. Duchy Originals, Poundbury and Dumfries House being cases in point. Many wrote them off as eccentric white elephants but they have turned out to be real money spinners.

Then you have a competent team he surrounds himself with. They can be vicious and sycophantic (Fawcett types) but they seem to know their job very well in terms of getting Charles what he wants. I think in Charles' court you will see a very different way of running the monarchy. He is not going to stand back and let Lancaster continue making losses. They will abuse him but he will insist and it will work out, like it usually does.

My fear is that William might run Cornwall down. He has not yet shown the kind of intimate knowledge of farming or engagement like his father. I even detect a lack of interest, with more focus on his own charitable causes.

I think Charles might pass the Princes Trust to Harry. He seems to have to have the charisma to carry it off and I rather suspect Charles finds him much easier to deal with than William who has been known to be a bit of a prima donna. Ironic isn't it, that a child who did not exactly inspire undiluted joy from Charles when he was born turned out to be much closer to him in looks and also relationship-wise than William.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

I do agree about his money management skills vs his mother. (despite my personal feelings on some other matters, I do give him credit when due, esp well i think for an ardent Diana fan  :lol:)

Well funny you should say that about jumping onto a bandwagon before it becomes fashionable, with the new thread from the lastest "papers" revelation. Its easier to jump on said bandwagon when you create it yourself and then gain from said influence with undisclosed investments that will benefit from such speeches. tsk tsk.

Im sure its not the sole reason for the Duchy's success but it certainly doesnt paint him in the best light.

I agree with you about William and Harry in regards to the future of his projects. Im holding out some hope that when William say hits his mid 40s he'll gravitate more to those roles. Depending on when HM passes and he gets made PoW himself, that might change his outlook on it. (im sure Kate will still want nice clothes and the kids will want lots of toys and such) so he'll have to make it work somehow.

As for Harry, he would make a great ambassador for the Prince's trust, although i do wonder if he would take it in different directions that youth skills and entrepreneurship and move it more towards his charitable goals and such.

Yes, it is ironic about the positions of the boys at birth, and Charles less than thrilled about his sex and hair (one gem from the great Nat Geo doc is a tv clip where the announcer is talking about Harrys birth in 84, well before the morton books and she said that the father said his hair was"indeterminate color" very ironic description of it after the words at the hospital).

[TLLK]

He has not yet shown the kind of intimate knowledge of farming

William has had an extension course in agricultural management at Cambridge and did spend part of his gap year working on a Duchy of Cornwall dairy farm in addition to his youthful experiences at Highgrove, Sandringham and Balmoral. I'd say it's on par  or even a bit more than  what Charles had before he gained control of the Duchy at age 21. However as noted Charles has truly taken the reins on Duchy management and made it quite profitable. :)

The student prince - Telegraph According to this Telegraph article he spent a month on a dairy farm performing everything from mucking stalls, to caring for and milking cows. During that stint he earned the minimum wage of 3.20 pounds per hour. :)

I do agree about his money management skills vs his mother. (despite my personal feelings on some other matters, I do give him credit when due, esp well i think for an ardent Diana fan  :lol:)

:thumbsup:
Double post auto-merged: November 07, 2017, 10:56:31 PM

William's Cambridge ten week course included:

William will be taught by academics specialising in geography, land economy and plant sciences.

He is expected to study subjects including rural and planning policy, farming and supply chains, site management, agricultural policy and conservation governance.

Double post auto-merged: November 07, 2017, 10:57:58 PM

Source:http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-25639442
Double post auto-merged: November 08, 2017, 12:14:30 AM

CC 7/11

The Duke of Cambridge this morning received Mr Alastair Martin (Secretary of the Duchy of Cornwall) and Mr Keith Willis (Finance Director

[royalanthropologist]

Maybe I actually misjudged William. However, so far he has given an impression that he is not that much into duty. I also think that he will be under pressure. Imagine if the Duchy fell back into the red during his rein. I can imagine the Daily Fail and BBC gloating with glee.

As for the Princes Trust, Harry may want to add another component but in my view it would be risky to get rid of the entrepreneurial element altogether. Imagine the headlines if instead of supporting young people to open up a business, Harry was going begging for handouts to worthy causes. The media would have a field day.

[Trudie]

The big difference between Charles and William is Charles had actually taken the time since his youth to learn farming visiting various farms to get ideas for the successful running of them vs. William going to school and taking classes. Charles success in organic farming is from visiting various other organic farms to learn their methods from planting to feeding stock and how to humanely send animals to slaughter. In Junor's book Victim or Villain there is a chapter on this and how at one organic farm he learned how at the time of slaughter the owners of the farm personally accompanied the stock and calming them until they died as it is believed that less stress at the time ensures purer and better meat.

[TLLK]

^^^ Impressed that Charles has taken the time to meet and discuss various methods with farmers particularly in organic farming. However William has also had the experience of actually working on a  dairy farm and visiting other farms as part of his bespoke Cambridge agricultural course. The course description shared by the BBC did mention that there would be field trips as well as classroom time. :)

It seems to me that both father and son are taking advantage of the opportunities to learn more about the latest methods in agriculture so it can be used to enhance the Duchy's farms and maintain the environment. :)

Imagine if the Duchy fell back into the red during his rein

Like any business venture, those risks will always be present especially with agriculture and livestock rearing. Various viruses and bacterial infections can plague animals and plants plus there is always the threat of natural disasters too. I believe that ultimately some of those who are currently helping to manage the Duchy of Cornwall will stay on for the transition when Charles' reign begins and he takes over the Duchy of Lancaster. :)

[sandy]

The course was only ten weeks. There is so much more to it so IMO ten weeks is not enough. I visited a farm and saw the workings of it. It takes a lot of practical experience. And more than a day or two at a dairy farm. I was amazed at the complexity of it all.

I think William put more emphasis than learning to fly copters and doing the ambulance flying work.

[TLLK]

^^^He's not the Duke of Cornwall yet and  his learning experience is still ongoing and will continue until he inherits the Duchy from his father.  This is why he continues to work with the management team  of the Duchy of Cornwall. He just met with them yesterday. :nod: IMO it is better than the "old" days when the former  Dukes of Cornwall were expected to have very little with people involved in the management and the various employees in the Duchy. Besides Charles, I don't know of any Dukes who actually have worked on a farm. (BTW "Farmer George" aka George III was never a Duke of Cornwall.)

Fun Facts about the Duchy.
The Duchy of Cornwall | World news | The Guardian

9. The prince was proclaimed duke at Launceston Castle in 1973. His feudal dues included a pair of white gloves, gilt spurs and greyhounds, a pound of pepper and cumin, a bow, a pair of gilt spurs, 100 silver shillings, wood for his fires, and a salmon spear.

Trailer for the Film The Farmer and His Prince  The Farmer and his Prince TRAILER - YouTube
Double post auto-merged: November 09, 2017, 12:33:02 AM

William began attending meetings regarding the management and operations of  the Duchy of Cornwall in 2011.
Double post auto-merged: November 09, 2017, 12:33:49 AM

Prince Charles prepares to pass the duchy to Prince William - Telegraph
Double post auto-merged: November 09, 2017, 12:35:58 AM

As far as I can tell, father and son are working together along with the Duchy management so that William is prepared when Charles' reign as monarch begins. Charles tenure as Duke of Cornwall and Prince of Wales has been longer than any other in English/British history. He's assembled an excellent team that is keeping the Duchy profitable and healthy.
Double post auto-merged: November 09, 2017, 01:04:55 AM

The history of the Duchy Originals Brand which started in 1992.
Why Prince Charles's Duchy Originals takes the biscuit - Telegraph
Double post auto-merged: November 09, 2017, 01:07:00 AM

Though the brand was doing well, with an annual turnover of around £1 million in the late Nineties, it struggled to expand its market reach, with products mostly stocked in farm shops and independent delicatessens. Duchy started making a loss, and was badly hit by the recession in 2007, bumping balance sheets into the red to the tune of £3.3 million.

The turning point came in 2009, when Charles licensed the brand to Waitrose. The supermarket promised to invest in the company and pay a royalty fee, and, in return, was granted the exclusive right to sell its products. Now, annual profits top £2.8 million, and, thanks in part to its tie-up with Duchy, Waitrose holds a 22.6 per cent share of the UK organic market (up from 5.9 per cent in previous years).

A little info on its financial history.

[sandy]

I think though William had a lot more interest in the copter flying. It remains to be seen how hands on he will be.

[TLLK]

^^^During his training and later his years with the RAF SAR team and EAAA  of course  he'd have been busier with helicopters, as it was his job then. However we do know that he's been learning about Duchy work and its management as well since he left Eton and that will continue to grow and expand until he inherits it.

[sandy]

I think he may be more likely to have others manage it and be hands on.  Maybe George will show more interest in agriculture when he grows up.

[Duch_Luver_4ever]

People need to take into account his age, and the length of time he has to still live, given a normal life span. Its not the popular opinion, but I think William is doing a much better job of pacing his life, compared to Charles, who had lots of existential worrying about his role waiting for his turn on the throne. While it did cause him to do some good things like the princes trust, and the duchy, it also was a contributing factor in the marriage breakdown, between Charles trying to "prove himself", keep busy and inability to be comfortable in his place, made home life hard.

Instead William did his military service, and his work with the Ambulance I feel, is a direct effort to make up for what he couldnt do that night in Paris, or at least it motivated him to help other accident victims. In his 20s and early 30s, running the duchy was decades away.

Possible hidden scandals aside, he married what seems to be a stable relationship, spending time with his kids, and now that hes entering his late 30s, hes paring back the AA stuff, and doing more royal roles to free up his dad to help HM, he has a great charitable foundation going, as well as dealing with the legacy of his mum charitable fund, and will likely as the time nears, handle more of the duchy's work.

A lot of the hands on farming that Charles does is for his own enjoyment, its not as vital to the running of the duchy's profits as its made out. Its not like Charles is out harvesting potatoes and shearing sheep and driving a wagon to market wearing a tweed cap.

While William may not have the passion for it his dad does, he may take the duchy in another direction. William seems to get that his life/role is a marathon and paces himself and doesnt fret over his role like his dad did, hes comfortable not being king yet, and doesnt at least publicly seem to make us think he feels he has to justify his existence like his dad did.

[TLLK]

^^^Charles has a true love of gardening and nature, but as you pointed out he's not there harvesting the potatoes himself every season. He can't be present at everything due to his other duties. He was derided as an oddball because of his early interest in organic gardening for years, but now that form of agriculture is considered mainstream. For centuries most of the wealthy landowners spent only a few months out of the year at one of their many estates, leaving the main work to their estate managers and tenants. His mother entrusts the care of the Duchy of Lancaster primarily to her team. The public rarely hears about the day to day activities that occur on either, because for the most part they do run smoothly. It's only when there is a problem that there is any media coverage.

[amabel]

^^^Charles has a true love of gardening and nature, but as you pointed out he's not there harvesting the potatoes himself every season. He can't be present at everything due to his other duties. He was derided as an oddball because of his early interest in organic gardening for years, but now that form of agriculture is considered mainstream. For centuries most of the wealthy landowners spent only a few months out of the year at one of their many estates, leaving the main work to their estate managers and tenants. His mother entrusts the care of the Duchy of Lancaster primarily to her team. The public rarely hears about the day to day activities that occur on either, because for the most part they do run smoothly. It's only when there is a problem that there is any media coverage.

Charles clearly does love "life on the land" and does a lot of his own gardening, for pleasure, and I'm sure, if he had time, he'd do more hands on farm work. But he doesn't have time and while managing the Duchy is part of his work, its not all of it or even the main part. A landowner's responsibility is to ensure that the estate runs well, makes a profit and to try and ensure that the tenants are OK.  The Duchy is such  a large estate that it would be impossible for one landlord to manage it all anyway. William may not taek as much interest in the agricultural side of it as Charles has, and it doesn't matter provided he takes a reasonable interest.