The Saddest Princess

Started by LouisFerdinand, May 09, 2017, 12:29:44 AM

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amabel

#25
Quote from: Curryong on May 12, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
^ I don't think it is the Japanese Imperial family that is the problem really. Her spouse and others have been sympathetic and supportive of the Crown Princess over the years.

It just seems that everyone from the Emperor down seems to be a prisoner of rituals, expectations, protocol laid down long ago and being unable to speak out against it because image is everything. I don't mean image in the modern PR sense of the word, but a determination to keep everything ultra private and symbolic, without any loss of face at any time for any reason.

This is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

The Royal females are expected to have a son. Producing a daughter only, has broken Crown Princess Masako. The pressure on her must have been horrendous. And this was a highly intelligent and accomplished woman.

I
so what is the problem if her husband and the RF have been supportive?

Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2017, 07:03:03 PM


Quote from: sandy on May 12, 2017, 01:17:35 PM
The Japanese royal family is behind the times. Masako's daughter may well have become a splendid monarch. I hope Masako and the Crown Prince love and cherish their daughter, she is not inferior to any male.

Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2017, 01:20:16 PM


Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

Not all of them were. Prince Albert was faithful to his wife Victoria and did not understand his eldest son's behavior with women. Edward's siblings were faithful. Vicki, the eldest daughter had a loving marriage where partners were faithful to one another. They did not "all" do this and naming others who did this does not make the adultery acceptable.

I don't know wath Edward you mean but If you mean Ed VII his brothers were not faithful.  Alfred was a womaniser, Arthur seems ot have had an affair with one of Jennie Jerome's sisters. Leo wan't married very long. Obvioulsy his sisters were faithful.
And I honeslty can't understand why people bring up this apparent grieveance that "Charles left Diana's bed."  If he was with another woman, whom he preferred, and his wife and he were not getting on and she was ill and depressed why would she want a physcial relationship iwht a man she was increasingly unhappy with?
Ed VII did what many  married men of the time did, he fathered some children, then he left his wife alone, and took up with mistresses.  Alix was probably very relieved to be finished with a sex life, when she had had 6 children in rapid succession, as was expected of her..had lost one, and was in poor health.

Curryong

^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.

It doesn't matter how empathetic other members of the family have been to individual members, and as TLLK has pointed out there have at times also been strains between them. It is the system that is at fault and they can't change that, because if they did attempt it they would fail, as it would place the whole structure in danger of collapse, (according to the Japanese POV.)

Prisoners of war can be sympathetic and supportive of each other and often are but that doesn't change the fact that they are prisoners of war.

Duch_, at the beginning of the occupation of Japan in 1945 the MacArthur administration did give serious thought to either abolishing the Imperial system or seriously restricting the powers of the Emperor over his people as well as putting Hirohito on trial for war crimes committed in his name.

None of those measures were adopted except for the second one, which came about naturally as the result of Japan's occupation. They believed that the reverence with which the Emperor was held by the populace would disappear after a few years of the westernised education system they would put in place. In a sense it has reduced to a certain extent, certainly in comparison to what it was before the Second World War and before when the Emperor was regarded as a god.

This has been partly due to measures decided by Hirohito's son. However even today the Emperor and his family are held in the sort of respect and awe by the Japanese people that has completely disappeared in other monarchies.

MacArthur and his deputies did not touch the Imperial system then in place in 1945 because they were told by those who knew Japan that the country would become ungovernable if they tried it. Those who knew Japan believed that the people would rise up against their conquerers, leading to a long lasting guerrilla war of incredible ferocity. That's why they left it alone.

sandy

Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 06:58:07 PM
Quote from: Curryong on May 12, 2017, 06:15:19 AM
^ I don't think it is the Japanese Imperial family that is the problem really. Her spouse and others have been sympathetic and supportive of the Crown Princess over the years.

It just seems that everyone from the Emperor down seems to be a prisoner of rituals, expectations, protocol laid down long ago and being unable to speak out against it because image is everything. I don't mean image in the modern PR sense of the word, but a determination to keep everything ultra private and symbolic, without any loss of face at any time for any reason.

This is the most ancient monarchy and Imperial house in the world and I'm not sure that any non Japanese person really understands the importance of this family in the homeland. Courtiers and bureaucrats rule the family's lives and are all powerful.

The Royal females are expected to have a son. Producing a daughter only, has broken Crown Princess Masako. The pressure on her must have been horrendous. And this was a highly intelligent and accomplished woman.

I
so what is the problem if her husband and the RF have been supportive?

Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2017, 07:03:03 PM


Quote from: sandy on May 12, 2017, 01:17:35 PM
The Japanese royal family is behind the times. Masako's daughter may well have become a splendid monarch. I hope Masako and the Crown Prince love and cherish their daughter, she is not inferior to any male.

Double post auto-merged: May 12, 2017, 01:20:16 PM


Quote from: amabel on May 12, 2017, 05:49:27 AM
Good god most upper class and royal husbands were unfaithful.. up to the 20th Centuyr,  they married for policy and took lovers for pleasure and love.  Diana was unhappy, she didn't fit in to her royal role all that well or to her husband's family.  She was bulimic and  depressed. but her problems were not as major as previous princesses. She didn't lose children, or many many relatives the way that was not uncommon in earlier times.  She may not have been liked by her royal relatives but they didn't abuse her.  She got a good divorce settlement when she ended her marriage and wasn't cut out of a public role.hwat was very sad in her life was her early death and her parnetal problems and the lack of a steady lover when her marriage failed..
I have no idea about the Japanese Royal Family but if it is so terrible why DID other women marry into it?  Are they royal women who had less choice?

Not all of them were. Prince Albert was faithful to his wife Victoria and did not understand his eldest son's behavior with women. Edward's siblings were faithful. Vicki, the eldest daughter had a loving marriage where partners were faithful to one another. They did not "all" do this and naming others who did this does not make the adultery acceptable.

I don't know wath Edward you mean but If you mean Ed VII his brothers were not faithful.  Alfred was a womaniser, Arthur seems ot have had an affair with one of Jennie Jerome's sisters. Leo wan't married very long. Obvioulsy his sisters were faithful.
And I honeslty can't understand why people bring up this apparent grieveance that "Charles left Diana's bed."  If he was with another woman, whom he preferred, and his wife and he were not getting on and she was ill and depressed why would she want a physcial relationship iwht a man she was increasingly unhappy with?
Ed VII did what many  married men of the time did, he fathered some children, then he left his wife alone, and took up with mistresses.  Alix was probably very relieved to be finished with a sex life, when she had had 6 children in rapid succession, as was expected of her..had lost one, and was in poor health.

I meant to say Bertie. But he was known as Edward as KIng

Alexandra had many children. She had a difficult childbirth that caused health problems and one baby, Prince John died in infancy. Bertie was not in the best of health either, being obese and having health issues. Alexandra was known to be in love with her husband and reportedly said "he loved me best" or words to that effect. She just looked the other way but was said to use passive aggression on her husband.

If Charles did not feel he loved Diana, he had no business marrying her. A woman can file for an annulment or divorce if her husband leaves her bed and goes to his mistress. Diana did not have that freedom early in the marriage. Charles had no business running to another woman because his wife did not "please him" enough. That is just nasty.

TLLK

Quote^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.
:goodpost: @Curryong.

Also then CP Michiko's mother-in-law the Empress was upset that her eldest son did not choose a bride from one of the imperial and aristocratic families. He choose the daughter of an industrialist who had been educated at a Catholic girls school. The Empress was also behind the near constant belittling and bullying of her daughter-in-law. Michiko didn't hand her children over to servants after their birth but chose to nurse them herself and create some form of family life. This greatly upset the IHA to see that imperial tradition was being modernized. It didn't matter to them that her husband agreed with his wife. She was considered to be the usurper.

Duch_Luver_4ever

For sure @Curryong there was a few things at play, with the war won, the US had quickly lost the...im not going have the right word here, not bloodlust, not will to fight, um...kind of like.... I think they felt they had knocked Japan down so to speak, to compare war as a fight between two people, and as long as they stayed down, they saw no reason to get on the ground and finish them off once and for all.

There was real concern after the battle at Okinawa over how a land invasion would have gone, not that the ultimate decision was in doubt, but would the US be willing to pay the price in terms of bodycount, in what would have been a foreshadowing of vietnam, and not to take the sparkle off the usual historical claim for the end of the pacific war, it was the entry of the USSR that caused Japan to ultimately surrender not the A bombs.While they were novel and terrifying, they were roughly similar in damage to the usual bombing raids on Japanese cities already done with impunity since the fall of Tinian and Iwo Jima. In England,Germany,USSR and Japan the lesson after WW2 was that mass city bombing doesnt really do what its backers claimed it would do.

The US had already determined the USSR would be the next opponent and wanted the conflict in Japan over ASAP to prevent USSR from staking a claim to any more territory( they already had manchuria, northern korea, etc. and Japan could have been partitioned like Korea if the war had gone on much longer. (USSR was eager to avenge previous losses in the 20s to Japan and would have not turned down more territory).

So expediency was key and like you said if there had been a protracted guerilla battle, it would have been hard for the people at home to support in the US. But I guess that would depend on how much of the Japanese military command would have been left, had they gone that route and how "broken" the Japanese public would have been having the emperor hung, or shot, or whatever.

Seventy years on, it seems to be a livable arrangement, but seeing the views of prime minister Abe and the recent move to no longer limit their forces to the homeland does give me pause as unlike Germany, they havent taken to heart their role in the war, despite some formal apologies over the years. Also world opinion also seems to have given them more of a "pass" eg: most war movies/games etc. now are usually heavily skewed towards the european theatre and not the pacific.



"No other member of the Royal Family mattered that year, or I think for the next 17 years, it was just her." Arthur Edwards, The Sun Photographer, talking about Diana's impact.

LouisFerdinand

Which one of Jennie Jerome's sisters did Prince Arthur, Duke of Connaught have an affair? I have never heard this before.


Curryong

Leonie, Lady Leslie was the wife of an Anglo Irish soldier and land owner in Ireland. The family seat was Castle Leslie in County Monoghan. Leonie was sister to Jennie Jerome and had a long friendship, lasting until the Duke of Connaught's death, with him and with his wife Princess Louise who predeceased him by about a quarter of a century.

Leonie Leslie was believed to be Prince Arthur's mistress, but it was probably one of those relationships in which the bonds of friendship were greater than the amour. Louise, Arthur's wife, who had been brought up in a very straitlaced household in Berlin, with a pig of a father, loved her company, (Leonie was a very witty and lighthearted woman) and she would often invite her to stay on her own account.

Of course I suppose Leonie gained a little more social prominence than she would have as the wife of an Irish baronet but I think she really enjoyed cheering the couple up as they appeared to be a bit lonely. They had spent much of their married life in different parts of the British Empire which had made close friendships in English Society difficult.

When the Duke of Connaught was very old and doddery he spent his time in the country on his estate. It was wartime and travel was very difficult but Leonie (who was by that time no spring chicken herself ) considered it her duty to visit him several times a year, staying for a couple of days. She did this until the Duke's death.

amabel

Quote from: TLLK on May 12, 2017, 11:40:22 PM
Quote^ The 'problem' is, Amabel, that the system in which the Japanese Imperial Family lives means that the JIF are not in any sense masters of their own destiny. They live according to a large set of Dictats and rules which have been set down centuries before in some cases, which are administered by the courtiers of the Imperial Household.

It is they who are in charge, not the family.
:goodpost: @Curryong.

Also then CP Michiko's mother-in-law the Empress was upset that her eldest son did not choose a bride from one of the imperial and aristocratic families. He choose the daughter of an industrialist who had been educated at a Catholic girls school. The Empress was also behind the near constant belittling and bullying of her daughter-in-law. Michiko didn't hand her children over to servants after their birth but chose to nurse them herself and create some form of family life. This greatly upset the IHA to see that imperial tradition was being modernized. It didn't matter to them that her husband agreed with his wife. She was considered to be the usurper.
but if she's so unhappy why has she stayed in the marriage?  or is that unacceptable?

TLLK

^^^I don't know the answer to that other than to guess that she likely would have never seen her sons and daughter again nor would she have had any contact with future grandchildren. I can also assume that the pressure to stay would have been tremendous.

Things appear to have improved a bit when Hirohito died in 1989 and her husband Akihito ascended to the throne. (However there was a second bout of her becoming mute in the 1990's)

amabel

Mute?  pretty odd?  In fact if they were so strict and rigid, I wouodl have said that they'd say a mute princess ca'nt do her job and maybe even divorced her, if that is acceptable in their culture.

LouisFerdinand



amabel

Quote from: TLLK on May 13, 2017, 06:23:59 AM
^^^I don't know the answer to that other than to guess that she likely would have never seen her sons and daughter again nor would she have had any contact with future grandchildren. I can also assume that the pressure to stay would have been tremendous.

Things appear to have improved a bit when Hirohito died in 1989 and her husband Akihito ascended to the throne. (However there was a second bout of her becoming mute in the 1990's)
I'm just getting a bit curious about this, I never wanted to know much about Japan, but I'm curious that their IF is SOOOOO hidebound..
Surely since Japans society  has changed immeasurably since the days before WWII, the IF has changed too?  IF they are not happy with their situaton, why not loosen things up a bit?
If its so awful to marry into, it seems odd that they can find women who will, unless they are also upper class or royal and know the score. 
Anyway what I'm asking is, does anyone know ofa good book bout the JIF?

Curryong

^ The only book I've ever read on the Japanese Imperial Family has been 'Princess Masako: Prisoner of the Chrysanthemum Throne' and that was some time ago, so I don't know how up to date it would be. It was interesting. However, as the IMperial Household and the IF are one of the most secretive units on the face of the earth and nobody, literally NOBODY, speaks to outsiders ever, most books on the family are about 80% speculation.

To be honest, I learned what I do know about the IF and more importantly the Imperial Household, as they're the ones that give the Family permission to breathe, from years of lurking on Royal Dish where they used to have a Japanese poster who really knew her stuff regarding how matters worked, and at The Royal Forums of course, when various subjects came up.

TLLK

Quote from: amabel on May 13, 2017, 06:45:13 AM
Mute?  pretty odd?  In fact if they were so strict and rigid, I wouodl have said that they'd say a mute princess ca'nt do her job and maybe even divorced her, if that is acceptable in their culture.
Just noticed this post today @amabel. Yes I do believe that divorce is acceptable today but in the early 1960's that might have been an issue for the CP couple. Also I'm not sure if Ahkito would have wanted to divorce her because he did choose her for love and would have known that the behavior/actions his mother and the IHA were the root cause his wife's condition.

amabel

Quote from: Curryong on November 12, 2017, 05:45:37 PM
^
To be honest, I learned what I do know about the IF and more importantly the Imperial Household, as they're the ones that give the Family permission to breathe, from years of lurking on Royal Dish where they used to have a Japanese poster who really knew her stuff regarding how matters worked, and at The Royal Forums of course, when various subjects came up.
Thanks, all sounds very weird, if the Court don't speak to outsiders, it msut be very hard to know what the truth is... so a book or people on a Forum, can't know any more than anyone else?
It is hard enough to tease out what tis the truth about a European RF, so if the culture is even more secretive and hidebound, must be very hard. I'll look for that book